Vary keyboard sequence/arpeggio tempo during performance/playback?
March 5, 2020 3:45 AM Subscribe
I'm probably buying a music keyboard/synthesizer soon. I'm excited to discover that many of them have (and let you create) pre-recorded/sequenced arpeggios/song sections that let one perform with a cool backing sound. I'm used to expressing emotion in performance partly by varying tempo -- is it possible to vary these sequences/song sections' playback tempo expressively while they are playing back?
I've been watching tutorial videos, scanning manuals, and trying to figure out the answer for myself -- I'm coming up blank, though. Which seems to hint that varying tempo (just slightly, as for a gradual accellerando or a rubato) isn't normal for pop/rock/normal musical styles. Can this be true?
I'm finding instructions for changing the tempo for the entire thing recorded or created, but that's not what I'm after -- I don't want to change an entire song's tempo from 110 to 120 BPM, but rather to take a bunch of sequences/arpeggio/song parts at, say, 110 BPM, and then, in the final chorus, decide _in performance_, how much it feels right to slow it down, or speed it up to a rousing finish. Or slow down the final verse just a touch until the last line, which is delivered at tempo.
Ideally there would be a pedal or wheel interface that lets one just slightly inch tempo up or down for a section of a song, then inch it back to the default. Or continue increasing/decreasing the tempo until the end of the song.
Is this desire that weird?
I'm currently looking at Yamaha MX88 and MOXF8 keyboards, but I'm open to other options. Probably not able to spend a lot more money, though.
Other features I'm thinking about: whether a truly competent pianist/keyboardist will enjoy playing this instrument; cool voices/genres; must have 88 keys/weighted action.
Thank you!
I've been watching tutorial videos, scanning manuals, and trying to figure out the answer for myself -- I'm coming up blank, though. Which seems to hint that varying tempo (just slightly, as for a gradual accellerando or a rubato) isn't normal for pop/rock/normal musical styles. Can this be true?
I'm finding instructions for changing the tempo for the entire thing recorded or created, but that's not what I'm after -- I don't want to change an entire song's tempo from 110 to 120 BPM, but rather to take a bunch of sequences/arpeggio/song parts at, say, 110 BPM, and then, in the final chorus, decide _in performance_, how much it feels right to slow it down, or speed it up to a rousing finish. Or slow down the final verse just a touch until the last line, which is delivered at tempo.
Ideally there would be a pedal or wheel interface that lets one just slightly inch tempo up or down for a section of a song, then inch it back to the default. Or continue increasing/decreasing the tempo until the end of the song.
Is this desire that weird?
I'm currently looking at Yamaha MX88 and MOXF8 keyboards, but I'm open to other options. Probably not able to spend a lot more money, though.
Other features I'm thinking about: whether a truly competent pianist/keyboardist will enjoy playing this instrument; cool voices/genres; must have 88 keys/weighted action.
Thank you!
I haven't delved into keyboards for a while so things may have changed, but I've never seen or heard of anything like what you're describing. I've seen pitch wheels on keyboards, but nothing to vary tempo of the accompaniment in the way you mean here.
Constant tempo is the norm in the popular music I've played. A song may slow at the very end, like the last bar or two, but that tends to be it. Obviously there are exceptions, but it's not the norm. One small group I play with now have a kind of elastic tempo at times and it does suit their songs. Minimal percussion though.
The other keyboardist I play with at the moment uses his keyboard as a midi controller and gets all his sounds from Logic or GarageBand on his laptop which the keys run through while we're playing. If you're up for that kind of thing you would be able to put less emphasis on the sounds or accompaniment that come with the keyboard you buy and focus more on the playability. Software opens a huge range of options for keys.
I played for years with a piano player who described using keyboards with less than 88 keys as like trying to play chess without all the pieces.
posted by mewsic at 6:26 AM on March 5, 2020
Constant tempo is the norm in the popular music I've played. A song may slow at the very end, like the last bar or two, but that tends to be it. Obviously there are exceptions, but it's not the norm. One small group I play with now have a kind of elastic tempo at times and it does suit their songs. Minimal percussion though.
The other keyboardist I play with at the moment uses his keyboard as a midi controller and gets all his sounds from Logic or GarageBand on his laptop which the keys run through while we're playing. If you're up for that kind of thing you would be able to put less emphasis on the sounds or accompaniment that come with the keyboard you buy and focus more on the playability. Software opens a huge range of options for keys.
I played for years with a piano player who described using keyboards with less than 88 keys as like trying to play chess without all the pieces.
posted by mewsic at 6:26 AM on March 5, 2020
I think you want something like this: https://www.ploytec.com/one2/ Watch the video on that page, it looks like the guy is doing something like what you're describing.
posted by rd45 at 6:59 AM on March 5, 2020
posted by rd45 at 6:59 AM on March 5, 2020
Which seems to hint that varying tempo (just slightly, as for a gradual accellerando or a rubato) isn't normal for pop/rock/normal musical styles. Can this be true?
Yes, this is very true - see What Is A Click Track and a somewhat anecdotal forum thread on Origin of the "Click Track" Arguably, any music intended to be danceable works better with a constant tempo throughout, so even music far older than "pop" music - like jigs, reels, and polkas - has often or usually kept to a single tempo. Pop and rock music recorded to a click track/constant tempo has been a thing since at least the 70s.
I'm excited to discover that many of them have (and let you create) pre-recorded/sequenced arpeggios/song sections that let one perform with a cool backing sound.
From a quick scan of the manual, the MX88 has a "Tap Tempo" function ("Tap Tempo function: The tempo can also set by “playing” or tapping the [TEMPO] button several times repeatedly at the desired tempo.") which might do what you're looking for, but I think you'd have to try one out in person to make sure.
Honestly, the MOFX8 manual is far too large and detailed for me to get into right now, although it seems to have some "assignable" knobs & buttons.
Backing up a little, the MX88 is a "simpler" keyboard in and of itself, while the MOFX8 is a "workstation", meaning the internal recording/sequencing/arpeggiating capabilities inside the keyboard are far more thorough. Both are capable of (and the MX88 is intended for) interfacing with DAW's, which are external computer-based recording/sequencing programs. So you can create your own accompaniment parts in the DAW and either have the sounds for that generated by the keyboard or in the DAW itself (for which you'll need the capability to get audio out of the computer in addition to the keyboard, so you'll need some kind of audio mixer.)
So then it may well be possible for you to connect an external control device (like a MIDI expression pedal) to your keyboard or the computer and use that to variably control the tempo of the sequence inside the DAW. (DAW's tend to have even more capabilities than workstation keyboards.) Or, bouncing off rd45's answer, you may be able to connect an external pedal to control any Tap Tempo function in the keyboard or the DAW.
scanning manuals,
The TL:DR is that, yeah, this is kind of an unusual desire, and you're going to have to dig deep into manuals for the keyboards and/or DAW's to see how possible this is. This will be true for every modern keyboard I am aware of, so if you like the Yamahas (you have tried them out in person to see how well you like the keyboard action, yes?) you might as well start there.
And/or as johnathanhughes suggests, do some poking around on more keyboard/musician oriented forums.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:05 AM on March 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes, this is very true - see What Is A Click Track and a somewhat anecdotal forum thread on Origin of the "Click Track" Arguably, any music intended to be danceable works better with a constant tempo throughout, so even music far older than "pop" music - like jigs, reels, and polkas - has often or usually kept to a single tempo. Pop and rock music recorded to a click track/constant tempo has been a thing since at least the 70s.
I'm excited to discover that many of them have (and let you create) pre-recorded/sequenced arpeggios/song sections that let one perform with a cool backing sound.
From a quick scan of the manual, the MX88 has a "Tap Tempo" function ("Tap Tempo function: The tempo can also set by “playing” or tapping the [TEMPO] button several times repeatedly at the desired tempo.") which might do what you're looking for, but I think you'd have to try one out in person to make sure.
Honestly, the MOFX8 manual is far too large and detailed for me to get into right now, although it seems to have some "assignable" knobs & buttons.
Backing up a little, the MX88 is a "simpler" keyboard in and of itself, while the MOFX8 is a "workstation", meaning the internal recording/sequencing/arpeggiating capabilities inside the keyboard are far more thorough. Both are capable of (and the MX88 is intended for) interfacing with DAW's, which are external computer-based recording/sequencing programs. So you can create your own accompaniment parts in the DAW and either have the sounds for that generated by the keyboard or in the DAW itself (for which you'll need the capability to get audio out of the computer in addition to the keyboard, so you'll need some kind of audio mixer.)
So then it may well be possible for you to connect an external control device (like a MIDI expression pedal) to your keyboard or the computer and use that to variably control the tempo of the sequence inside the DAW. (DAW's tend to have even more capabilities than workstation keyboards.) Or, bouncing off rd45's answer, you may be able to connect an external pedal to control any Tap Tempo function in the keyboard or the DAW.
scanning manuals,
The TL:DR is that, yeah, this is kind of an unusual desire, and you're going to have to dig deep into manuals for the keyboards and/or DAW's to see how possible this is. This will be true for every modern keyboard I am aware of, so if you like the Yamahas (you have tried them out in person to see how well you like the keyboard action, yes?) you might as well start there.
And/or as johnathanhughes suggests, do some poking around on more keyboard/musician oriented forums.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:05 AM on March 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
You can do this if you slave the keyboard to a computer. How this works exactly will depend on the combination of software/hardware, but basically, the idea is this: you have a DAW (digital audio workstation, e.g. Ableton Live, Cubase, GarageBand). The DAW has a tempo track that defines the tempo at any given moment. In typical pop music, that tempo track looks like a straight horizontal line, but good news! It doesn't have to stay that way! You can define tempo changes, ramps, etc.
So long as your keyboard is slaved to use the tempo track from your DAW via MIDI, it will automatically change the speed of your arpeggios, sequences, etc.
Doing it in performance is slightly more difficult, but probably not too much. You should be able to map any MIDI-enabled knob or fader (whether on the keyboard itself or external) to the DAW's tempo track, and change it during your performance.
So, yeah! This is totally possible! But since it's not something people do a lot, you'll have to poke around for awhile to get it to work.
One tip: if you find things aren't working as you expect them to and you're using MIDI over USB (which is the norm these days), I'd recommend trying to use normal MIDI cables (in and out) to hook up your keyboard if you have the option. Sometimes MIDI over USB gets all wonkered, and you spend anguished hours trying to get something to work that works instantly over a regular MIDI cable. Not that I would know.
posted by nosila at 7:07 AM on March 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
So long as your keyboard is slaved to use the tempo track from your DAW via MIDI, it will automatically change the speed of your arpeggios, sequences, etc.
Doing it in performance is slightly more difficult, but probably not too much. You should be able to map any MIDI-enabled knob or fader (whether on the keyboard itself or external) to the DAW's tempo track, and change it during your performance.
So, yeah! This is totally possible! But since it's not something people do a lot, you'll have to poke around for awhile to get it to work.
One tip: if you find things aren't working as you expect them to and you're using MIDI over USB (which is the norm these days), I'd recommend trying to use normal MIDI cables (in and out) to hook up your keyboard if you have the option. Sometimes MIDI over USB gets all wonkered, and you spend anguished hours trying to get something to work that works instantly over a regular MIDI cable. Not that I would know.
posted by nosila at 7:07 AM on March 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
You should be able to map any MIDI-enabled knob or fader (whether on the keyboard itself or external) to the DAW's tempo track, and change it during your performance.
This. You can do it in Ableton Live, and although it's been a while I'm positive there are synth keyboards that allow you to reassign the Modulation wheel to affect tempo. On pre-digital organs it was often controlled by a fader - my old Hammond Church organ has 12 rhythms and touch tempo, with a fader that changes the tempo in real time.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:17 AM on March 5, 2020
This. You can do it in Ableton Live, and although it's been a while I'm positive there are synth keyboards that allow you to reassign the Modulation wheel to affect tempo. On pre-digital organs it was often controlled by a fader - my old Hammond Church organ has 12 rhythms and touch tempo, with a fader that changes the tempo in real time.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:17 AM on March 5, 2020
Response by poster: This is _such_ a bummer. I'm used to somewhat complex rhythms, and subtly increasing them during an emotional climax of a song (like your heart beating faster when you're running, then gently returning to normal when you do a cool-down walk).
As far as I can tell from the manuals, you can tap to set a tempo when you're about to record something with a click, or before playback maybe, but it's to set the tempo for the whole piece.
The foot pedal is cool for what it is, but I'd really rather have a slider or wheel interface that won't require me to do something on the beat when I'm performing -- a lot of interesting music doesn't hit on the beats.
This is really disappointing. Pop music can incorporate tempo changes -- especially as described -- why doesn't it? I really wonder if this is a case of the tool dictating the art more than it should. Argh.
And I really don't want to hook a computer up for performance -- a pain to carry around, something else that can break, another expense. Plus I'm a programmer and I'm kind of over it.
Would a fancier keyboard allow this feature?
posted by amtho at 2:01 PM on March 5, 2020
As far as I can tell from the manuals, you can tap to set a tempo when you're about to record something with a click, or before playback maybe, but it's to set the tempo for the whole piece.
The foot pedal is cool for what it is, but I'd really rather have a slider or wheel interface that won't require me to do something on the beat when I'm performing -- a lot of interesting music doesn't hit on the beats.
This is really disappointing. Pop music can incorporate tempo changes -- especially as described -- why doesn't it? I really wonder if this is a case of the tool dictating the art more than it should. Argh.
And I really don't want to hook a computer up for performance -- a pain to carry around, something else that can break, another expense. Plus I'm a programmer and I'm kind of over it.
Would a fancier keyboard allow this feature?
posted by amtho at 2:01 PM on March 5, 2020
I'm surprised most of the responses here think it's impossible. I have an Arturia Microbrute synthesizer with a simple note sequencer built-in, and there's a knob right next to it (lower-right corner) that lets you set the tempo in realtime. That's just one example but most hardware sequencers I've seen have such a knob.
There's also the possibility of mapping a MIDI knob to the tempo, as mentioned.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the MIDI clock -- part of the MIDI spec involves a sequence of pulses to synchronize multiple instruments. Adjusting the clock rate would change the speed of all devices on the MIDI bus. This is normally done on the DAW end of things but there are hardware devices out there (and many synthesizers can work as a clock source). When you tweak the tempo in Ableton you're really changing the MIDI clock rate.
posted by neckro23 at 2:09 PM on March 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
There's also the possibility of mapping a MIDI knob to the tempo, as mentioned.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the MIDI clock -- part of the MIDI spec involves a sequence of pulses to synchronize multiple instruments. Adjusting the clock rate would change the speed of all devices on the MIDI bus. This is normally done on the DAW end of things but there are hardware devices out there (and many synthesizers can work as a clock source). When you tweak the tempo in Ableton you're really changing the MIDI clock rate.
posted by neckro23 at 2:09 PM on March 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Casio CTK-6250 does auto-accompaniment and has tempo control buttons on its front panel (see page 6 of the manual).
posted by STFUDonnie at 7:13 PM on March 5, 2020
posted by STFUDonnie at 7:13 PM on March 5, 2020
Response by poster: There's a knob to vary tempo on the MOXF8! I totally missed it. It's in a set of knobs that are mainly synth functions (I think), and you have to select the third option for that bank of knobs, but it does work -- from what I can tell, only if/as long as the thing that's being replayed doesn't have tempo settings that occur after you move the knob. Still working out the particulars. Probably not perfect, but better than nothing.
posted by amtho at 8:10 AM on March 11, 2020
posted by amtho at 8:10 AM on March 11, 2020
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