Is bringing up skin color when talking about someone racist?

February 25, 2019 7:11 PM

When you are having a conversation with someone and they bring up the color of the person’s skin, when it has no relevance whatsoever to the story (say they were at the mechanics and getting an oil change by a black person), is it racist?

I just got upset with a white friend as he tried to explain why it was ok. But I’m a white woman and would please like some help here. The person I was speaking with was a liberal male in a small town who also has said that he likes to speak to Mexicans (born and raised in the U.S.) in Spanish, as they appreciate that ‘connection’. I have been living in a conservative area for the last few years and it’s been messing with me. Thank you.

posted by anonymous to Human Relations (28 answers total)

My gut feeling is yes, in a small way that adds up. Does the person notice non-white people as remarkable, and regard white people as normal? Does the person mention non-white people’s races if it’s not relevant to the story? It sounds like minimally the person is very unused to being around people of color. You could probably split hairs around definitions of racist, but it makes me uncomfortable too, when I notice (white) people doing this.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:16 PM on February 25, 2019 [7 favorites]

Also that condescending nonsense about Mexican people being grateful to him for speaking in Spanish would be hilarious if it weren’t so pernicious. I’m embarrassed just hearing about it!
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:17 PM on February 25, 2019 [30 favorites]

It's behavior generally ascribed to someone having grown up in a monocultural bubble.

Probably doesn't get out much. Bless his heart.
posted by dum spiro spero at 7:23 PM on February 25, 2019 [10 favorites]

What was his explanation for why it was OK? Was he saying something bad about the mechanic?

Sometimes I find myself wanting to describe the situation in very visual terms to create the full picture for my audience, so maybe I'll have an urge to specify the person's ethnicity/size/appearance. But I have trained myself to ask if (1) it is at all relevant to the story and (2) is it related to any subconscious bias I may have? Maybe your friend just needs to be educated on these things and isn't necessary a racist. Unless you grow up in a multi-cultural place where racism does not exist, it's very hard to be race *blind*.
posted by bread-eater at 7:30 PM on February 25, 2019 [4 favorites]

Short answer: yep.

Want to stop having these interactions with white folks? Start wearing a black lives matter button prominently every day.

The dumb ass conspiratorial whispers from white people about other people's race/ethnicity/first language/nonwhiteness immediately dried up as soon as I started wearing my button. Do I support black lives matter? Hell yes. But wearing a BLM button is as much a "do not come to me with that bullshit" announcement to those white folks as it is a message in support of BLM. It has been a life changer for me honestly.
posted by phunniemee at 7:37 PM on February 25, 2019 [23 favorites]

It is explicitly racist, I think, because bringing up a persons race in these situations is almost never benign - it's either to create an interesting twist to subvert expectations (black people are usually criminals but this one was nice) or to confirm existing stereotypes (see this exactly why you shouldn't trust these people)
posted by xdvesper at 7:41 PM on February 25, 2019 [26 favorites]

I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume that your friend only brings up skin tone when he's referring to POC - he's probably not saying he got his oil changed by his white mechanic? That is part of what's racist about it to me - it tacitly frames "white" as the default/unmarked condition that doesn't need to be specifically spelled out, but anything else needs to be stated as if it's somehow abnormal. Sort of like when people refer to a "woman doctor" or whatnot.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:45 PM on February 25, 2019 [69 favorites]

If their skin color is not relevant, then what about their subculture, for which skin color is a convenient and common (if, ultimately, defective) proxy? There are better ways to talk about subculture, but skin color is common shorthand.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:53 PM on February 25, 2019 [1 favorite]

it's racist & it's not racist.

It's racist when:
- it's supposed to "mean" something about the person (e.g. "the mechanic was latino, so I already knew...")
- the (white) person only notices the race of non-white people and doesn't notice when people are white, so never says "oh, the mechanic, who was a white man". They probably don't think of themselves as white or having a race, even, or it being a default position.
- they are making assumptions about the persons' race ("the chinese woman") -- how did they know that they were Chinese? as opposed to Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Hmong, etc?
- they say it for no other reason whatsoever - it's not pertinent to the story, so it just means that it was "significant and stood out", as opposed to a white person, who "doesn't stand out". So what they're noticing is the other person's identity. (on preview: seconding DingoMutt's example of "a woman doctor")

It's maybe not racist when:
- they're trying to identify someone in a helpful way ("oh, the asian woman with a purple tshirt", "the white man with a blue hat"). This is borderline, and really depends on the person. 99% of the time, when white people say it, it's usually racist unless they've actively thought about racism.

It's not racist when/if:
- Talking about white people. We need to know, as a society, that white people are white, and white people are also a product of racism / created racism. White people need to know that they're white. In general, I think that saying things like "the white person over there is the waiter, etc" is a small helpful daily gesture to remind white people that whiteness is not a default.
- Talking about a situation that is directly impacted by race. Like: "I don't want to call the police on the nice guy who has had a little too much to drink, because he's black, and historically the police only does more harm in situations with black folks than not". To very loosely paraphrase Claudia Rankine: It's important for people to not be "color-blind" but notice and talk about race, because that way we can really care for each other in the society that we live in currently.

This last one is tricky because I mean - what isn't impacted by race? Everything is. So here's another statement that's not racist: "Oh wow, notice how there's only one black or brown person in this whole restaurant?" or "Every single person on this website is white!"
posted by suedehead at 8:03 PM on February 25, 2019 [44 favorites]

Obviously there are lots of scenarios you could come up with where it's not racist, but if your gut weighs in it's almost always right.

And I think a genuine reaction to maybe crossing the line should be "oh god, that sounded racist didn't it?" and not "no here's why it's fine."
posted by Lyn Never at 8:27 PM on February 25, 2019 [2 favorites]

I know a POC who is very racist about a different (non-white) ethnic group who asks me this question everytime I tell a slightly aggravated story, ie, "I went to the store and the cashier completely ignored me while she chatted with her coworkers..." "What [racial identity] was she?" so that POC friend can then determine how pissed they want to be at the cashier on my behalf.

Yes, that shit is extremely racist. There's never a non-racist reason to mention someone's race in a conversation where the subject of the conversation has zero to do with race.
posted by vignettist at 8:33 PM on February 25, 2019 [3 favorites]

"is it racist?"

Depends how you mean racist.

Is he likely to burn crosses in his spare time? Can't really tell from the information provided.

Does he have broad and probably poorly informed preconceptions about certain people? Sounds like it, from the Spanish with Mexicans example.

Is he participating in and propagating patterns of behavior that systematically mark and exclude certain people? Yes.

"he likes to speak to Mexicans (born and raised in the U.S.) in Spanish, as they appreciate that ‘connection’."

Unless their English is quite poor and his Spanish is better, this is probably not an experience they appreciate as much as he thinks.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:46 PM on February 25, 2019 [9 favorites]

If the person telling the story said "I got an oil change from a guy, he was fat" what would you say? Or "I got an oil change, and the guy was a dwarf." Perhaps instead of wondering whether you should pull out a label on someone, first think "Huh?"

And then - the most important part - ask WHY the storyteller put that in. You don't have to be an asshole to say "why did you notice he was black?" You can even embroider: "Did everyone else there look Chinese?"

Sometimes dudes are just dumb and unthinking. Sometimes dudes are bone deep racist douches. Either way a bemused "Huh" can often be the best retort.

(Especially if you, like I, am an older woman.)
posted by kestralwing at 11:07 PM on February 25, 2019 [5 favorites]

Depends how you mean racist.

Is he likely to burn crosses in his spare time? Can't really tell from the information provided.

Since we're talking about application of terminology here, burning crosses is well beyond being racist and rather is white supremacist terrorism. This was instrumental hyperbole as a rhetorical flourish on msp's part but just for the record there's definitely no need to evaluate someone's behavior relative to cross-burning when considering whether that behavior is racist.
posted by XMLicious at 11:38 PM on February 25, 2019 [20 favorites]

I'm not particularly sensitive or "woke", but this has always made me extremely uncomfortable. I try to avoid it as much as possible, to the point where, if someone is asking about a POC, I'll give really convoluted descriptions of a person's background and personality instead of saying "the black guy" or whatever, even if that person is the only black guy around and describing him as "the black guy" would immediately identify him. I don't know why. Maybe it gives the idea that race is the person's defining characteristic, that nothing else about them is important aside from skin color. I don't think most people intend to send that message, but it really bothers me.
posted by kevinbelt at 3:43 AM on February 26, 2019 [8 favorites]

As an aside: I recommend all us white people make a habit of saying things like ‘some white lady at the grocery store recommended this food!’

Imo, it helps push back against this problem and the white-as-default in a tiny way, ymmv.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:48 AM on February 26, 2019 [11 favorites]

It's racist because how often does your friend make explicit note that someone in the story he's telling is white? I'm guessing he's literally never done that. He's taking white to be the "default" and nonwhite to be "other." That's textbook racism.

Put it in gender terms: if someone makes an explicit note every time they talk about a female professional - e.g. "lady judge" vs. "judge" if male, or "female mechanic" vs. just "mechanic" if male - that's obviously sexist.

Rule of thumb:
Don't note race or gender (or class or sexuality or any of it) unless it is relevant to the story.

Bonus Rule for Folks Who Stand Against Oppressions:
Always note the race, gender, sexuality, class, etc. of the dominant group for no reason.

My own speech is constantly peppered with "white male police officer" and "the writer, who is rich and straight" apropos of nothing. It's FASCINATING how often this angers people, and how they're never satisfied with my explanation that I was just trying to be inclusive to show that I *don't* hate white/straight/male/rich people.
posted by MiraK at 5:46 AM on February 26, 2019 [10 favorites]

As others are saying, it perpetuates racism to note a POC's race or ethnicity when it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Refusing to ever name a POC's race or ethnicity when it is relevant to the conversation, however, also perpetuates racism, in that it reinforces the idea among white people that race is so dangerous to talk about that it can never be mentioned, which impedes conversations about racism.
posted by lazuli at 5:52 AM on February 26, 2019 [19 favorites]

Refusing to ever name a POC's race or ethnicity when it is relevant to the conversation, however, also perpetuates racism, in that it reinforces the idea among white people that race is so dangerous to talk about that it can never be mentioned, which impedes conversations about racism.

Yeah, I have definitely heard POC comics joke about the way some well-meaning white people will refuse to mention race even when it's relevant and benign ("the lady over there with the... blue shirt! No, the short one! Not, not THAT short one..."). This doesn't sound like one of those cases, though.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:18 AM on February 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

Sometimes when I'm talking to other white people who mention race when they talk about non-white third parties, I'll start bringing up the whiteness of others the way they bring up the non-whiteness, i.e., "and then I was in the grocery store parking lot and this white man cut me off, so rude". Usually this makes the person I'm talking to get a weird look on their face, like... why am I mentioning whiteness? It makes them very uncomfortable to have whiteness mentioned, in their worldview whiteness is the default, the "normal" way to be, and therefore it doesn't need to be mentioned the way non-whiteness does. Sometimes these white people I talk to ask me why I'm mentioning whiteness, and then I get to ask them why they always mention race if a person isn't white. Sometimes this makes them think a bit about why they mentally categorize the people they encounter day to day, sometimes it makes them get mad at me (I really don't give a damn). Either way, what they're doing is racist, even if they don't know it. Yes, your friend is being racist, even if he doesn't know it. If you want to nudge him into thinking about this at all and possibly changing this thing he does, try always mentioning other people's whiteness and see what kind of conversation it sparks.
posted by palomar at 9:13 AM on February 26, 2019 [8 favorites]

Well, you're asking two separate questions here, and your example doesn't entirely match the initial concept. In this case, there definitely is relevance to stating the subjects' race. I was expecting an example like, "I dropped my car off with my black mechanic then got a cup of coffee." Which would definitely be problematic, as it confers an otherness onto the mechanic, and suggests his skin color is more relevant to his person than it is (presumably) to a white mechanic's. In the the case you describe, race is a relevant and central component. It's still problematic, but for other reasons. The "othering" here is more about the assumptions surrounding what "those people" appreciate or don't appreciate, and treating them differently. It may be benevolent, but it's systematically making decisions for other people based on their ethnicity.
posted by namesarehard at 9:19 AM on February 26, 2019

In my (non-white) experience, I've found that awkwardness and hyper-vigilance/awareness of race by well-meaning white liberals isn't inherently racist. It's just ignorant, rude, embarrassing, and micro-aggressive.

But! I think such language does frequently-enough correlate with racist thoughts and practices to merit notice and (sometimes) remark.

In other words, white folks who make socially inappropriate allusions to non-white cultural identities aren't definitionally racist, but they're absolutely perpetuating unexamined foibles of a structurally racist society.

That said, like many brown people, I'm exposed to this shit ALL of the time. I pass as white in many settings, but when my identity becomes apparent I have to sit and politely listen to a whole lot of white processing. Coworkers, peers, etc., mostly white, want to talk about their experience with my particular identity (or other brown people!) & share their stories, pontifications, and whatever recent internet think-pieces they read re. race, ethnicity, gender, adoption, the damn border wall. My entire identity becomes an object of reflection. If I were to consider all of these musings as racist I, would literally end up shunning half of my social circle. But at the same time – they're not not racist.

So here's what I tell myself: context matters. People who are products of a racist society (read: everybody alive in 2019) perpetuate inaccuracies, distortions, and attitudes that confirm racism – without being personally racist. That's the very definition of implicit bias. And it's nearly impossible to attack implicit racism in the course of a single conversation. "Calling out" these biases just drives them deeper into the psyche of the perpetrator, so it's better to focus attention on the all-too egregious examples of explicit intolerance. Plus, there's that whole thing about stones and glass houses.
posted by mr. remy at 9:59 AM on February 26, 2019 [15 favorites]

When people I don't know very well immediately name/question/or start talking about my ethnicity without prompting, I then have to do internal work to figure out how to manage the situation. I never welcome it and it's never a fun experience for me. It's work because I have to consider "is it worth making a fuss with this white person/man over my preferences or do I just have to take it?" "do I want to insult an elderly woman?" "he's worked here longer." "it's my friend's dad..."

White people initiating conversations and quesitoning about my ethnicity ('No, where are you really from?' 'Where are your parents from?' 'What are you?' 'That's a Japanese name - Konichiwa! I love sushi' ') is exhausting, awkward, and unwelcome. It assumes a lot about who I am, my connection to my family, and how I want to present in the encounter, even if it's comments that ostensibly contain compliments "it's such an honorable culture." "I knew a Japanese girl once, they were so good at math.") It also shows me that my conversant is judging me/seeing me as an other instead of getting to know me as an individual. I avoid these people and dislike seeing them again. Try to interact with people as individuals and always let ppl you're talking to take the lead on talking about their ethnicity. I've been privileged in that this is something I don't encounter as much as folks who deal with this and worse on the daily.
posted by Geameade at 10:29 AM on February 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

As said upthread, I think it can be relevant (say, mid-conversation about supporting minority-owned businesses, or "Who helped me in the store? I'm sorry I didn't catch her name, but she's a tall Asian woman wearing a green sweater"). But as a way to mark an otherwise unmarked interaction is anywhere between eye-roll-inducing ("I have a black friend!") to racist and prejudiced. Talking to any presumed Mexican in Spanish to make them more comfortable is DEFINITELY othering and rude.

I say this as someone with a very Italian-sounding name who speaks almost no Italian, who occasionally gets 1) friendly Italians making an incorrect assumption (fine) 2) friendly non-Italians trying out their rusty traveler's tongue (eh) or 3) jokey non-Italians trying-a the fakey pizza man-a accent-ay, capiche? (ugh). Even with white privilege that garbage is annoying.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:37 AM on February 26, 2019 [1 favorite]

As a black male, my opinion is that bringing up skin color when it isn't relevant is racist, either unintentionally or intentionally so, especially since he blithely assumes that all Mexicans speak Spanish.

It's like when I did a phone interview for an advertising position waaay back when. I was called in for an in-person interview and was greeted by the the words I've heard from most white people since I've learned how to speak: "Oh. I didn't know you were black!" Immediately wrote that agency off.
posted by theseventhstranger at 2:43 PM on February 26, 2019 [4 favorites]

just for the record there's definitely no need to evaluate someone's behavior relative to cross-burning when considering whether that behavior is racist.

Yeah, I guess this is the timeline where I had better explicitly deny that cross-burning is the lower bound of racism. I obviously didn't intend that, and it was good that someone pointed it out.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:09 PM on February 26, 2019 [2 favorites]

It certainly reveals a lot more about this person and their prejudices than they're likely to be aware of.

Reading some of these examples I just realized I've lived in majority-minority cities for my entire adult life and I'm profoundly grateful.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:38 PM on February 27, 2019 [1 favorite]

In this particular anecdote I’d play devils advocate and say you might be erroneously attributing this as racist due to different expectations about language / race

Based on what you say the conversation was about using Spanish to talk to Mexicans, in this case a linguistic group, rather than as a racial construct.

Hispanic identity is a really loaded question in the US at the moment, so I’m not surprised you bristled, but racism might be a reach.

It’s gauche, but not racist, in my opinion.

Looking at this another way, how would you feel if The same person told you he went to a Chinese restaurant and your friend ordered in Cantonese? Would you think this was racist too?
posted by Middlemarch at 10:52 PM on February 27, 2019