How does your (allotment) garden grow?
February 23, 2019 10:03 AM Subscribe
I just added my name to the list for a plot in my neighbourhood garden, and I'm looking for tips, tricks, resources and advice for a rookie vegetable gardener.
I won't know for sure that I've got a plot until mid-May, but the earliest anyone plants out around here is mid-June. That means I've got three months to make some plans.
The garden is about 5 years old and has had significant soil improvement done. Basic tools and water access is available on-site. Plots are 4' x 12' and are in a fairly open area with good southwestern exposure, so they get the benefit of our long summer days – hopefully that will help make up for the relatively short growing season (mid- to late June to mid-September). I'm in Canada – hardiness zone 6.
If you're an allotment gardener, I'd love to know:
- What resources were most helpful when you planned your garden? (Books, websites, etc)
- Were there any tools you wished you'd had (or bought and later thought, "I didn't need that")?
- Are there any sure-fire success plants that you'd recommend? Anything to avoid at all costs...or at least until I've got my confidence up?
- What's one piece of advice you'd share with a new gardener?
I'm great at keeping houseplants alive, and don't do too badly with a run-of-the-mill flower garden, but this feels like a big step up. Any advice would be much appreciated – thank you!
I won't know for sure that I've got a plot until mid-May, but the earliest anyone plants out around here is mid-June. That means I've got three months to make some plans.
The garden is about 5 years old and has had significant soil improvement done. Basic tools and water access is available on-site. Plots are 4' x 12' and are in a fairly open area with good southwestern exposure, so they get the benefit of our long summer days – hopefully that will help make up for the relatively short growing season (mid- to late June to mid-September). I'm in Canada – hardiness zone 6.
If you're an allotment gardener, I'd love to know:
- What resources were most helpful when you planned your garden? (Books, websites, etc)
- Were there any tools you wished you'd had (or bought and later thought, "I didn't need that")?
- Are there any sure-fire success plants that you'd recommend? Anything to avoid at all costs...or at least until I've got my confidence up?
- What's one piece of advice you'd share with a new gardener?
I'm great at keeping houseplants alive, and don't do too badly with a run-of-the-mill flower garden, but this feels like a big step up. Any advice would be much appreciated – thank you!
This may sound too obvious, but plan around what you actually will eat, not what the "best" plants for the climate are--otherwise you will end up with ninety ga-billion zucchini you'll be leaving on people's doorsteps at the dark of night.
posted by praemunire at 11:10 AM on February 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:10 AM on February 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I had an allotment in Montreal a few years ago. Not everything I learned will necessarily be useful, but here goes:
First, pay attention to any rules set out by the specific garden you're in – rules about what you can plant, limits on chemical fertilizers or pesticides, about locking up when you leave, cleaning any borrowed tools and so on. All these rules will be enforced by peer pressure and these people are not kidding.
I made the mistake of not working my plot over enough initially. A previous occupant had grown tomatillos, which came back in force and ended up muscling out most of my plants. Exert your will over the plot and remove anything that shows up that you didn't plant.
Keep track of what you're planting, even to drawing up a diagram. That way you can be sure you're looking after the things you actually want to grow.
In our growing zones there's little time to waste growing from seed outdoors. Two options: get seeds now and start them soon indoors, or put aside a little fund to buy seedlings at a market or garden centre and plant them on or soon after Victoria Day weekend. The older Italians in my neighbourhood who farm their back yards don't plant out before that weekend because there's a risk of frost at night up till then, and if you're unlucky you can lose plants you've just put in.
The main thing: You need to visit your allotment, often. I lost my plot because I had to move to a more distant neighbourhood and simultaneously got busy with work. If your plot gets overrun with weeds you will be drummed out. Someone else is waiting for that plot. Expect to show up and work at least 3 times per week, and more often if there's a dry spell.
The plants will need regular watering most at the beginning of the season.
Seasons vary, but I found that in our climate you can grow as much kale and bok choy as you want, although the bok choy is prone to getting eaten fast by tiny bugs so you want to pick and eat it young. Curly, dinosaur and Portuguese kale all grow just fine. (You can chop, blanch and freeze kale for later. I just finished the last of the kale I grew in my tiny back yard planters last season.)
Most lettuce does OK but watch out for bolting if there's a heat wave.
Tomatoes and zucchini are both prone to dying off for no very obvious reason. People always talk as if they're easy, but that was not my experience.
If you plant anything that needs to climb, remember you'll have to provide some sort of trellis. I've seen pergolas made out of old hockey sticks.
Read up on companion planting. By being canny about this you can minimize pests without using chemicals. It also gives you an excuse to put in some marigolds around the vegetables, if you like them, and grow basil around any tomato plants.
My only tools were this sort of thing – the garden may have bigger tools in case you need them.
And have fun! There's a lot of satisfaction in sitting down to a meal when you've raised some of the food with your own hands.
posted by zadcat at 11:47 AM on February 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
First, pay attention to any rules set out by the specific garden you're in – rules about what you can plant, limits on chemical fertilizers or pesticides, about locking up when you leave, cleaning any borrowed tools and so on. All these rules will be enforced by peer pressure and these people are not kidding.
I made the mistake of not working my plot over enough initially. A previous occupant had grown tomatillos, which came back in force and ended up muscling out most of my plants. Exert your will over the plot and remove anything that shows up that you didn't plant.
Keep track of what you're planting, even to drawing up a diagram. That way you can be sure you're looking after the things you actually want to grow.
In our growing zones there's little time to waste growing from seed outdoors. Two options: get seeds now and start them soon indoors, or put aside a little fund to buy seedlings at a market or garden centre and plant them on or soon after Victoria Day weekend. The older Italians in my neighbourhood who farm their back yards don't plant out before that weekend because there's a risk of frost at night up till then, and if you're unlucky you can lose plants you've just put in.
The main thing: You need to visit your allotment, often. I lost my plot because I had to move to a more distant neighbourhood and simultaneously got busy with work. If your plot gets overrun with weeds you will be drummed out. Someone else is waiting for that plot. Expect to show up and work at least 3 times per week, and more often if there's a dry spell.
The plants will need regular watering most at the beginning of the season.
Seasons vary, but I found that in our climate you can grow as much kale and bok choy as you want, although the bok choy is prone to getting eaten fast by tiny bugs so you want to pick and eat it young. Curly, dinosaur and Portuguese kale all grow just fine. (You can chop, blanch and freeze kale for later. I just finished the last of the kale I grew in my tiny back yard planters last season.)
Most lettuce does OK but watch out for bolting if there's a heat wave.
Tomatoes and zucchini are both prone to dying off for no very obvious reason. People always talk as if they're easy, but that was not my experience.
If you plant anything that needs to climb, remember you'll have to provide some sort of trellis. I've seen pergolas made out of old hockey sticks.
Read up on companion planting. By being canny about this you can minimize pests without using chemicals. It also gives you an excuse to put in some marigolds around the vegetables, if you like them, and grow basil around any tomato plants.
My only tools were this sort of thing – the garden may have bigger tools in case you need them.
And have fun! There's a lot of satisfaction in sitting down to a meal when you've raised some of the food with your own hands.
posted by zadcat at 11:47 AM on February 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
1. Expect to spend a ton of money. Gardening is an expensive hobby.
2. If you decide to grow cucumbers or zucchini, pick them while they’re still kind of small. I can’t even count the number of times my sister ignored her cukes for a few days and then wound up with cukes the size of baseball bats. And nobody wants extra cucumbers.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:48 AM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
2. If you decide to grow cucumbers or zucchini, pick them while they’re still kind of small. I can’t even count the number of times my sister ignored her cukes for a few days and then wound up with cukes the size of baseball bats. And nobody wants extra cucumbers.
posted by Autumnheart at 11:48 AM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
My number one tip for gardeners in their first several years is: keep it super simple. That is HARD to do the second you've got a gorgeous seed catalog in your hands or up on the screen, but it's best to embrace minimalism from the start, especially when you've only got 48 square feet with only a 8-12 week "summer" bookended with probably pretty short non-freezing "cool" seasons.
I usually tell new gardeners to not try seed-starting until they have 2-3 years under their belts, because you can spend a lot of money to get in way over your head and not have a lot of success, but the problem with short seasons is that your garden centers don't get plants in until pretty much the last possible second to get them in the ground. So I would give you permission - if you like tomatoes - to order four short-season/cold weather ("Siberian" usually) tomato seeds: two cherry, two small 2-6oz fruit types. Use the Jiffy greenhouse kits and a cheap diy grow station. Tomatoes are extremely satisfying to grow, can be frozen if you have a surplus, and can generally withstand the ministrations of beginners. (They do just up and fail randomly. It's part of the process.) Peppers are my second runner up here, again look for short season/cool-tolerant, and if you eat hot peppers pick maybe a Hungarian or just try jalapenos, and then pick a small sweet pepper.
If you want to do actual cold-weather crops like brassicas and greens, you'll need to not use all your space for the summer crops, because you're going to need to plant for fall before summer's over. Use the basics of Square Foot Gardening (don't get bogged down, just learn about space requirements) to determine how you want to split it up. As much as I find it fairly successful to grow those winter/fall crops, the truth is you can grow 20 square feet of lettuce and that's...salad for two people, one day. Brassicas are even worse: three months growing a cauliflower maybe the size of two fists, IF the cabbage moths don't get it first.
I am a fan of throwing stuff at the ground and see what happens. Give yourself a budget, though, a modest one for the first year, and expect a mix of successes and failures knowing that both have value - it's not really wasted money, you're paying for the lesson. Gardening is impossible to really learn from reading, you have to experience it, so it's going to be a hilarious mess for years.
My two favorite youtube resources are Gary Pilarchik (linked above, and he's a zone 5 or 6 gardener) and CaliKim, who will be more unrelatable to you as far as our year-round growing season but her techniques are still very solid.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:54 AM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I usually tell new gardeners to not try seed-starting until they have 2-3 years under their belts, because you can spend a lot of money to get in way over your head and not have a lot of success, but the problem with short seasons is that your garden centers don't get plants in until pretty much the last possible second to get them in the ground. So I would give you permission - if you like tomatoes - to order four short-season/cold weather ("Siberian" usually) tomato seeds: two cherry, two small 2-6oz fruit types. Use the Jiffy greenhouse kits and a cheap diy grow station. Tomatoes are extremely satisfying to grow, can be frozen if you have a surplus, and can generally withstand the ministrations of beginners. (They do just up and fail randomly. It's part of the process.) Peppers are my second runner up here, again look for short season/cool-tolerant, and if you eat hot peppers pick maybe a Hungarian or just try jalapenos, and then pick a small sweet pepper.
If you want to do actual cold-weather crops like brassicas and greens, you'll need to not use all your space for the summer crops, because you're going to need to plant for fall before summer's over. Use the basics of Square Foot Gardening (don't get bogged down, just learn about space requirements) to determine how you want to split it up. As much as I find it fairly successful to grow those winter/fall crops, the truth is you can grow 20 square feet of lettuce and that's...salad for two people, one day. Brassicas are even worse: three months growing a cauliflower maybe the size of two fists, IF the cabbage moths don't get it first.
I am a fan of throwing stuff at the ground and see what happens. Give yourself a budget, though, a modest one for the first year, and expect a mix of successes and failures knowing that both have value - it's not really wasted money, you're paying for the lesson. Gardening is impossible to really learn from reading, you have to experience it, so it's going to be a hilarious mess for years.
My two favorite youtube resources are Gary Pilarchik (linked above, and he's a zone 5 or 6 gardener) and CaliKim, who will be more unrelatable to you as far as our year-round growing season but her techniques are still very solid.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:54 AM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm a community gardener, and my tips are:
- Ask other gardeners how last season was. They'll tell you what did well. For example, in our garden we are all skipping beans this year because last year there was an infestation of bean beetles that we're trying to eradicate.
- Buy a bag of sterile straw at a garden center. When your seedlings are big enough to see, lay down straw all around them and cover every inch of bare soil. This will prevent weeds and hold in moisture. My plot is a little on the shady side and I get away with only watering once a week with this method (in zone 7a).
- In the middle of the plot where it's hard to reach, I usually mound up the soil and plant flowers on a little hill. This attracts pollinators and looks cute.
- Make notes on what you planted and when, and draw yourself a little map of what's where.
- If something does really well, you can save the seeds (e.g. one tomato yields enough seeds for the next year) and plant it again next year for free.
posted by xo at 12:12 PM on February 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
- Ask other gardeners how last season was. They'll tell you what did well. For example, in our garden we are all skipping beans this year because last year there was an infestation of bean beetles that we're trying to eradicate.
- Buy a bag of sterile straw at a garden center. When your seedlings are big enough to see, lay down straw all around them and cover every inch of bare soil. This will prevent weeds and hold in moisture. My plot is a little on the shady side and I get away with only watering once a week with this method (in zone 7a).
- In the middle of the plot where it's hard to reach, I usually mound up the soil and plant flowers on a little hill. This attracts pollinators and looks cute.
- Make notes on what you planted and when, and draw yourself a little map of what's where.
- If something does really well, you can save the seeds (e.g. one tomato yields enough seeds for the next year) and plant it again next year for free.
posted by xo at 12:12 PM on February 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
Your allotment neighbors know more about what can be grown there, and how, and how inexpensively, than any book could. Can you hang out long enough to make friends, or put up a sign offering a coffee to anyone who feels like giving advice, or is there a beginning-of-the-season or a cleanup party you could be sure to be at?
posted by clew at 12:13 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 12:13 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
My tips from being a mediocre gardener are to cage your tomatoes when they are still small, and radishes are quick and easy to grow from seeds and it’s nice to have something pop up quick and feel like you can actually grow something! And yes, zucchini will get HUGE if you let them.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 1:14 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by jeweled accumulation at 1:14 PM on February 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
We're just heading into year three of our 8x5' community garden plot and have learned a lot about what we can do with our space.
What I've found most useful was resources for square foot gardening to help lay out our garden plot each year, since there is a limited amount of stuff that we can realistically fit on that space and then to actually draw out what goes where and then keep records of when we planted things and how they turned out so that I can look back on it next year. This helps me figure out what I did wrong and what went well.
Even though our plot was filled with new soil (it was a demolished building site that the developers dug out and refilled with clean soil) the weeds got in there quickly and set root, so we had to dig out just under half a foot down and refill with clean soil again and then turn in compost each year to keep up the nutrients. It has to be weeded regularly as well, and surrounded by chickenwire fencing to keep rabbits and squirrels out (why there are rabbits in our highly, highly urban neighbourhood is beyond me!) and watered every day that it doesn't rain. Getting stuff in the plot as early as possible with such a short growing season is important, as is paying attention to when it's okay to plant things based on where you are/last frosts.
posted by urbanlenny at 1:36 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
What I've found most useful was resources for square foot gardening to help lay out our garden plot each year, since there is a limited amount of stuff that we can realistically fit on that space and then to actually draw out what goes where and then keep records of when we planted things and how they turned out so that I can look back on it next year. This helps me figure out what I did wrong and what went well.
Even though our plot was filled with new soil (it was a demolished building site that the developers dug out and refilled with clean soil) the weeds got in there quickly and set root, so we had to dig out just under half a foot down and refill with clean soil again and then turn in compost each year to keep up the nutrients. It has to be weeded regularly as well, and surrounded by chickenwire fencing to keep rabbits and squirrels out (why there are rabbits in our highly, highly urban neighbourhood is beyond me!) and watered every day that it doesn't rain. Getting stuff in the plot as early as possible with such a short growing season is important, as is paying attention to when it's okay to plant things based on where you are/last frosts.
posted by urbanlenny at 1:36 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
The main thing that matters is: what will you actually eat? Think about the veggies and herbs you like and know how to use and plant those.
Heirloom kale might look gorgeous, but if you're sick of it after a week it's not really worth it. Herbs are a good choice for a first time gardener. Peppers are great if they're started early enough in colder climates. I also like to grow things I can't find in the grocery store. I live in Pennsylvania so I grew papalo and molokhia.
posted by Bistyfrass at 2:16 PM on February 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
Heirloom kale might look gorgeous, but if you're sick of it after a week it's not really worth it. Herbs are a good choice for a first time gardener. Peppers are great if they're started early enough in colder climates. I also like to grow things I can't find in the grocery store. I live in Pennsylvania so I grew papalo and molokhia.
posted by Bistyfrass at 2:16 PM on February 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm astounded that no one above suggested carrots. Carrots are easy to grow, are so damn good just out of the ground!
We grow tomatoes , beans, carrots, radishes and peas. I buy tomatoes from someone who starts them and I get them beginning of June.
We plant yellow and green beans and I plant them a week apart so we don't get overrun.
Carrots I overseed always intending to thin, buy I never do.
Radishes are deeply satisfying. Quick and oh so good.
Peas I grow in a big planter and even though I sow 12-15 seeds, they never make it in the house as we all eat them straight off the vine and throw the pod into the garden. Fresh peas!
posted by Ftsqg at 4:20 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
We grow tomatoes , beans, carrots, radishes and peas. I buy tomatoes from someone who starts them and I get them beginning of June.
We plant yellow and green beans and I plant them a week apart so we don't get overrun.
Carrots I overseed always intending to thin, buy I never do.
Radishes are deeply satisfying. Quick and oh so good.
Peas I grow in a big planter and even though I sow 12-15 seeds, they never make it in the house as we all eat them straight off the vine and throw the pod into the garden. Fresh peas!
posted by Ftsqg at 4:20 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
And yes, zucchini will get HUGE if you let them.
Seconding this; my cousin once used the pellets from his kids' pet rabbit as fertilizer on his zucchini and ended up with behemoths that yielded 5-inch-diameter slices when sliced crosswise.
....So, uh, in addition I guess that rabbit pellets are a good fertilizer.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 PM on February 23, 2019
Seconding this; my cousin once used the pellets from his kids' pet rabbit as fertilizer on his zucchini and ended up with behemoths that yielded 5-inch-diameter slices when sliced crosswise.
....So, uh, in addition I guess that rabbit pellets are a good fertilizer.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:00 PM on February 23, 2019
Best answer: Mulch. Mulch mulch mulch. With bagged compost or dry leaves or grass clippings (that haven't gone to seed) or maybe there will be some compost at the community gardens. If you're direct seeding, wait until your seeds emerge and have 2 leaves and then mulch. If you transplant some plants, mulch them right away. It helps with moisture retention, weed control and fertility. This article goes into lots of depth about different organic growing methods. Charles Dowding has great books and a YouTube channel too.
Enjoy your plot!
posted by bluebelle at 7:33 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Enjoy your plot!
posted by bluebelle at 7:33 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Find out when the date is where you have to be out: some stuff only comes into its own at the end of summer, and when we do Clean-Out Day at my community farm’s allottment garden, there is often a lot of stuff that we feel really bad that we can’t let go another couple of weeks.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:58 PM on February 23, 2019
posted by wenestvedt at 7:58 PM on February 23, 2019
Plant some flowers for fast growth and for the bees.
It’s cool to trade plants or crops with other gardeners: it builds friendships and buys information.
Find out if they use organic methods or if chemicals are allowed: it’s important to know.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:29 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
It’s cool to trade plants or crops with other gardeners: it builds friendships and buys information.
Find out if they use organic methods or if chemicals are allowed: it’s important to know.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:29 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Some hardy stuff can be planted well before last frost, too! Such as...
posted by kate4914 at 10:12 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by kate4914 at 10:12 PM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Niki Jabbout has some good books for a beginner that focuses on vegetables and extending your season. She’s Canadian and fairly realistic, although a bit obsessed with cucumelons. I think she has a podcast too. Frankie Flowers has some good Canadian advice too.
posted by five_cents at 6:58 AM on February 24, 2019
posted by five_cents at 6:58 AM on February 24, 2019
Best answer: I'm a big fan of perennial herbs (thyme, chives, oregano, sage, winter savory...of course double-check what's able to overwinter in your area), because you only have to get them growing once, instead of continuously replanting year after year. I also embrace annual herbs that like to bolt and reseed themselves (dill, cilantro, fennel, epazote...). I figure I'm gonna be pulling weeds in the spring no matter what, so might as well be weeds I can eat.
I'm surprised to hear people describe tomatoes as challenging. I've always ended up with more fruits than I know what to do with, even when I grew them uncaged/unstaked, and when they got overrun with aphids, and when they caught some kind of leaf-spot disease. If you like tomatoes, I would definitely recommend giving them a shot!
I agree with the suggestion to take notes. Set up a spreadsheet, or notebook, or some kind of system ahead of time so that when you get back from too many hours futzing around in the dirt, you can easily write down that this was the day you sowed your beans or planted out your tomatoes or discovered animals had ate up your seedlings. Because next year, you may remember you planted your carrots too late or whatever, but having the actual dates will help you do better next time.
I disagree that gardening is necessarily an expensive endeavor. It certainly can be if you're not deliberate about keeping costs down, but I spend around $30 a season, and that includes materials for repairing the crumbling box I inherited. Your garden will probably have all the tools you need. I think the only tool I've had to buy myself was a decent pair of pruners. Also, see if there's a "seed swap" in your area--you'll walk away with more free seeds than you know what to do with.
Harvest to Table is my go-to for veggie-specific growing information, but I tend to take any and all gardening advice with a grain of salt these days. I used to get so frustrated when I'd read three different websites on how to grow a thing, and one would say "always do X!", the second would say "never do X, only do Y!", and the third wouldn't specify one way or the other, as if it was impossible to go wrong. There are also a lot of traditions and myths and old wives' tales in gardening that are pretty bogus, but get repeated endlessly nevertheless. So I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no one right way to garden, so don't be afraid to experiment and try things. The only way to find out if something works for you in your garden is to try it!
posted by gueneverey at 12:52 PM on February 24, 2019
I'm surprised to hear people describe tomatoes as challenging. I've always ended up with more fruits than I know what to do with, even when I grew them uncaged/unstaked, and when they got overrun with aphids, and when they caught some kind of leaf-spot disease. If you like tomatoes, I would definitely recommend giving them a shot!
I agree with the suggestion to take notes. Set up a spreadsheet, or notebook, or some kind of system ahead of time so that when you get back from too many hours futzing around in the dirt, you can easily write down that this was the day you sowed your beans or planted out your tomatoes or discovered animals had ate up your seedlings. Because next year, you may remember you planted your carrots too late or whatever, but having the actual dates will help you do better next time.
I disagree that gardening is necessarily an expensive endeavor. It certainly can be if you're not deliberate about keeping costs down, but I spend around $30 a season, and that includes materials for repairing the crumbling box I inherited. Your garden will probably have all the tools you need. I think the only tool I've had to buy myself was a decent pair of pruners. Also, see if there's a "seed swap" in your area--you'll walk away with more free seeds than you know what to do with.
Harvest to Table is my go-to for veggie-specific growing information, but I tend to take any and all gardening advice with a grain of salt these days. I used to get so frustrated when I'd read three different websites on how to grow a thing, and one would say "always do X!", the second would say "never do X, only do Y!", and the third wouldn't specify one way or the other, as if it was impossible to go wrong. There are also a lot of traditions and myths and old wives' tales in gardening that are pretty bogus, but get repeated endlessly nevertheless. So I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no one right way to garden, so don't be afraid to experiment and try things. The only way to find out if something works for you in your garden is to try it!
posted by gueneverey at 12:52 PM on February 24, 2019
In Montreal, only chives normally overwinter, although a few years ago the winter was so harsh even the chive roots died off. Basically, almost nothing is perennial here.
posted by zadcat at 8:57 AM on February 25, 2019
posted by zadcat at 8:57 AM on February 25, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:09 AM on February 23, 2019 [1 favorite]