Friend's inconsistent behavior is driving me nuts. What's the deal here?
February 12, 2019 12:05 PM Subscribe
Friend constantly switches between complimenting/praising me for certain attributes/accomplishments and targeted bullying of same attributes/accomplishments. I can't seem to predict which side they're on at any given moment or what triggers it but it's getting to the point where I don't want to be around them for very long anymore. I find it extremely confusing and painful as it feels like they're only being pointedly cruel to me. What could be the issue here and how do I approach it?
Interactions with my friend (who I will refer to as A) have always been fairly...confusing for a long time. In the past things have devolved rapidly into really intensely emotional situations where there was crying and anger and I have somehow insulted A deeply in a space where I thought I felt safe discussing my true thoughts and feelings regarding my life or other matters. These typically have involved my existential woes regarding my career, money, and relationships. I've been in a decent place for years that has allowed me a lot of comfort, independence, and work that I take pride in while A has been working really hard to start their career (I guess they've been playing "catch up"). Despite their past struggles, A recently earned an accelerated degree in a science heavy field and is starting a career they love doing really important work. I've done my best to be supportive of them and never gave a thought to treating them as anything other than an equal despite our differing socioeconomic statuses (We're close enough in age and both come from poverty and traumatic familial settings). My current career is very math and tech heavy, which A compliments and praises in private when I admit to feeling unsure of my abilities and of my next step in life (typical stuff one confides to in close friends, right?). What really kills me about this is that A then turns around and randomly attacks my career and my abilities while in group settings, which often is unprovoked and catches me off guard. This occurs while I watch them treat everyone else kindly and despite the fact that their career requires them to be very caring and compassionate. I thought perhaps A would calm this behavior down a bit after earning their degree but it happened again recently and I'm not sure what to do or say about it. Every time it floors me and makes me feel like shit for days. Typically it is something underhanded like getting a bill for a meal and A snapping something along the lines of "Figuring out the tip shouldn't be hard for YOU, Ms.Statistician." Or when I was unemployed for a brief period I was chided during a meal for "bringing in more monthly" in my benefits than "most people who work full time" because, I guess, I was able to pay for a round of beers despite being out of work? This was immediately following A buying me a very thoughtful, personal "hang in there" gift so I was completely confused, yet again. I've since ceased really discussing anything regarding my current work or financial situation or anything really with A with the hopes that I won't trigger them somehow, even when they ask for updates. They still find a way to snipe me and it's getting old.
I don't know what to do think about this because it seems as though my entire existence as a person is something that A finds irksome but at the same time they will also tell me they love me, miss me and think about me often. I can definitely believe the latter is true given how much they pay attention to my interests and eccentricities and the ways that attention and affection manifests in the way we interact in private or on social media. But I seriously don't understand this need to snipe me brutally in public and group settings. It seems extremely targeted to cause pain or guilt and makes me question whether or not they love me as much as they claim to. Without going into too much detail, this behavior reminds me uncannily of that of an estranged parents' toward me throughout grad school, where I was both undermined and insulted constantly in the presence of others and yet complimented and reassured when I was vocally insecure in private. It brings out feelings of shame and guilt and "otherness" that I work really hard to not constantly feel as I try to succeed in life on my terms and feel, I dunno, some semblance of pride in myself.
I have tried not taking it personally, as just teasing or what not. My friends and I tease each other often but it is safe and certain subjects are obviously off limits so that we don't stray into insult or harm territory. We certainly don't use our insecurities that we have confided in private against one another. Given that A has blown up at me in the past regarding the subjects in their teasing I also believe there is some underlying resentment that is manifesting here. But I also have no idea why or what to do to lessen it except...avoid A or confront them about it. A is smart, extremely empathetic, and astute, so part of me has to wonder if they know the effect their behavior has on me.
I'm mostly trying to get perspective from others who may have experienced the same with friends or loved ones. What could be the possible cause of this? Why would someone show love and care one moment and vocal disdain in situations where I can't really defend myself without seeming like I'm just taking "teasing" too seriously or being overly defensive? Or is there something wonky with the way I am processing these comments that is causing me to take it harsher or more threatening than may be intended? How should I approach it with care? Or should I? My first instinct is to simply avoid A from now on if they're going to be a jerk but I've been cutting out "toxic" people left and right in my life to the point and I honestly don't want them to be another if I can perhaps adjust my thinking or my reactions without undermining my own integrity and feelings.
Any insight is welcome and appreciated as always.
Interactions with my friend (who I will refer to as A) have always been fairly...confusing for a long time. In the past things have devolved rapidly into really intensely emotional situations where there was crying and anger and I have somehow insulted A deeply in a space where I thought I felt safe discussing my true thoughts and feelings regarding my life or other matters. These typically have involved my existential woes regarding my career, money, and relationships. I've been in a decent place for years that has allowed me a lot of comfort, independence, and work that I take pride in while A has been working really hard to start their career (I guess they've been playing "catch up"). Despite their past struggles, A recently earned an accelerated degree in a science heavy field and is starting a career they love doing really important work. I've done my best to be supportive of them and never gave a thought to treating them as anything other than an equal despite our differing socioeconomic statuses (We're close enough in age and both come from poverty and traumatic familial settings). My current career is very math and tech heavy, which A compliments and praises in private when I admit to feeling unsure of my abilities and of my next step in life (typical stuff one confides to in close friends, right?). What really kills me about this is that A then turns around and randomly attacks my career and my abilities while in group settings, which often is unprovoked and catches me off guard. This occurs while I watch them treat everyone else kindly and despite the fact that their career requires them to be very caring and compassionate. I thought perhaps A would calm this behavior down a bit after earning their degree but it happened again recently and I'm not sure what to do or say about it. Every time it floors me and makes me feel like shit for days. Typically it is something underhanded like getting a bill for a meal and A snapping something along the lines of "Figuring out the tip shouldn't be hard for YOU, Ms.Statistician." Or when I was unemployed for a brief period I was chided during a meal for "bringing in more monthly" in my benefits than "most people who work full time" because, I guess, I was able to pay for a round of beers despite being out of work? This was immediately following A buying me a very thoughtful, personal "hang in there" gift so I was completely confused, yet again. I've since ceased really discussing anything regarding my current work or financial situation or anything really with A with the hopes that I won't trigger them somehow, even when they ask for updates. They still find a way to snipe me and it's getting old.
I don't know what to do think about this because it seems as though my entire existence as a person is something that A finds irksome but at the same time they will also tell me they love me, miss me and think about me often. I can definitely believe the latter is true given how much they pay attention to my interests and eccentricities and the ways that attention and affection manifests in the way we interact in private or on social media. But I seriously don't understand this need to snipe me brutally in public and group settings. It seems extremely targeted to cause pain or guilt and makes me question whether or not they love me as much as they claim to. Without going into too much detail, this behavior reminds me uncannily of that of an estranged parents' toward me throughout grad school, where I was both undermined and insulted constantly in the presence of others and yet complimented and reassured when I was vocally insecure in private. It brings out feelings of shame and guilt and "otherness" that I work really hard to not constantly feel as I try to succeed in life on my terms and feel, I dunno, some semblance of pride in myself.
I have tried not taking it personally, as just teasing or what not. My friends and I tease each other often but it is safe and certain subjects are obviously off limits so that we don't stray into insult or harm territory. We certainly don't use our insecurities that we have confided in private against one another. Given that A has blown up at me in the past regarding the subjects in their teasing I also believe there is some underlying resentment that is manifesting here. But I also have no idea why or what to do to lessen it except...avoid A or confront them about it. A is smart, extremely empathetic, and astute, so part of me has to wonder if they know the effect their behavior has on me.
I'm mostly trying to get perspective from others who may have experienced the same with friends or loved ones. What could be the possible cause of this? Why would someone show love and care one moment and vocal disdain in situations where I can't really defend myself without seeming like I'm just taking "teasing" too seriously or being overly defensive? Or is there something wonky with the way I am processing these comments that is causing me to take it harsher or more threatening than may be intended? How should I approach it with care? Or should I? My first instinct is to simply avoid A from now on if they're going to be a jerk but I've been cutting out "toxic" people left and right in my life to the point and I honestly don't want them to be another if I can perhaps adjust my thinking or my reactions without undermining my own integrity and feelings.
Any insight is welcome and appreciated as always.
A) This is not a friend, friends don't treat you like this. You're making this assumption that if YOU are nice, they will be nice too. That isn't how it works, unfortunately. They are making a choice, it's a shit choice but it is theirs to make.
B) Adult friendships should never involve crying in the sense that one person hurts the other (more than once, anyway) to the point they cry. Cry for happiness, cry for sadness, cry over injustices done to them yes, and maybe in extreme circumstances a friend will put their friendship on the line to say something they think is more important than the continued friendship - like, "you have a problem and you need help" type of conversations - but that's it.
But if you have repeatedly been in "really intensely emotional situations where there was crying and anger and I have somehow insulted A deeply" and they haven't walked away from the friendship, they're playing you for the emotional high. Which is toxic.
Now, since there's no stakes left, you certainly can have one last "this is more important than the friendship" conversation where you say this dynamic has to stop and you can't take this public/private dichotomy. You can say "do you have an acceptable reason to be doing this to me?" and see if they have an answer. They likely won't, but you will have said your bit and can turn around and walk away.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:24 PM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
B) Adult friendships should never involve crying in the sense that one person hurts the other (more than once, anyway) to the point they cry. Cry for happiness, cry for sadness, cry over injustices done to them yes, and maybe in extreme circumstances a friend will put their friendship on the line to say something they think is more important than the continued friendship - like, "you have a problem and you need help" type of conversations - but that's it.
But if you have repeatedly been in "really intensely emotional situations where there was crying and anger and I have somehow insulted A deeply" and they haven't walked away from the friendship, they're playing you for the emotional high. Which is toxic.
Now, since there's no stakes left, you certainly can have one last "this is more important than the friendship" conversation where you say this dynamic has to stop and you can't take this public/private dichotomy. You can say "do you have an acceptable reason to be doing this to me?" and see if they have an answer. They likely won't, but you will have said your bit and can turn around and walk away.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:24 PM on February 12, 2019 [9 favorites]
Cautious hypothesizing -- could A have a lot of math pain and shame? It's a big thing, sometimes multigenerational, and is so reinforced by money and careerism and the unconvincing praise of STEM by various political groups.
Even if this is the reason for A's cruelty, it's no excuse. It might be a comfort to see the problem as something loaded onto you and A by the world, not innate to your relationship. (Tiny goddamn comfort, though. I'm sorry, this sounds so awful.)
posted by clew at 12:32 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Even if this is the reason for A's cruelty, it's no excuse. It might be a comfort to see the problem as something loaded onto you and A by the world, not innate to your relationship. (Tiny goddamn comfort, though. I'm sorry, this sounds so awful.)
posted by clew at 12:32 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
It sounds like they are very envious of you. They can still really like you and be very envious at the same time. Envy does not excuse them treating you poorly. Insulting you in front of others is not something you have to respond to at all. Insult humor gets old fast and if your group can't move beyond it, it may be time to pull back from them all. Practice a neutral, bored response to the next insult and stop confiding in this person.
posted by soelo at 12:41 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by soelo at 12:41 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
Your friend A sounds really insecure about something, probably a quality that you seem secure about, or something you demonstrate ease and competence in when you're around A. I could see that motivating the insults in public, followed by backpedaling with compliments in private to make sure you're still friends.
Insult/dark humor is pretty ingrained in some people/cultures (and certain professions often intensify a person's comfort with it) but if you feel this hurt when she treats you this way, you have the right to ask her to stop and to disengage when/if she keeps doing it. Personally I've found that as I get older, I want less and less to do with people who use a lot of sarcasm or insult humor; they usually can't be sincere easily and so they don't make good friends because I don't feel comfortable really opening up to them.
That being said, I have to agree with Lyn Never: adult relationships should not involve another person saying or doing something so hurtful it makes you cry. I give you permission to fade away from this friendship. You could have a come to Jesus type talk with her, but if the idea of doing that makes you feel anxiety or dread, it's okay to just gradually stop responding to her attempts to hang out one on one, and slow fade, hopefully with no drama. Take care of yourself.
posted by zdravo at 12:49 PM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
Insult/dark humor is pretty ingrained in some people/cultures (and certain professions often intensify a person's comfort with it) but if you feel this hurt when she treats you this way, you have the right to ask her to stop and to disengage when/if she keeps doing it. Personally I've found that as I get older, I want less and less to do with people who use a lot of sarcasm or insult humor; they usually can't be sincere easily and so they don't make good friends because I don't feel comfortable really opening up to them.
That being said, I have to agree with Lyn Never: adult relationships should not involve another person saying or doing something so hurtful it makes you cry. I give you permission to fade away from this friendship. You could have a come to Jesus type talk with her, but if the idea of doing that makes you feel anxiety or dread, it's okay to just gradually stop responding to her attempts to hang out one on one, and slow fade, hopefully with no drama. Take care of yourself.
posted by zdravo at 12:49 PM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
Are those the worst examples of insults you can think of? It's so hard to tell without knowing anything about context or tone of voice or any of a hundred other factors, but written down on the page here they don't seem clearly hostile. They definitely seem like they could be intended as friendly teasing. If this is a person who says they love you and treats you well aside from this type of comment I would strongly consider the possibility that they really do care for you and don't realize they're hurting your feelings.
posted by Redstart at 12:50 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 12:50 PM on February 12, 2019 [7 favorites]
Often I'm like "jerks gonna jerk, you should move on," but this is the kind of situation where I would say it is worth having at least one serious conversation in which you tell A honestly how A's comments make you feel. Sometimes humor can go badly awry. "Harmless teasing" in one person's eyes becomes "brutal attack" in the recipient's. This is not to say that your reaction is wrong; indeed, your reaction is the determining factor. But A may not understand that, and may be willing to change once it is explained to A.
If A isn't, then see: jerks gonna jerk, above.
posted by praemunire at 12:50 PM on February 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
If A isn't, then see: jerks gonna jerk, above.
posted by praemunire at 12:50 PM on February 12, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think there are three potential responses you could have to A:
1. This is a "poop milkshake" situation, and you need to gracefully exit the friendship. It doesn't matter if A is nice in private. Someone who bullies you is not your friend.
2. A means well but isn't being a good friend to you right now. You should have a talk with her about the way that these bullying comments make you feel, and then see if her behavior changes over time.
3. It's hard to know whether comments like the examples you gave are intentional bullying, or just mild ribbing. A good friend who I trusted teasing me about my job ("Don't you want to read the fine print on these liability waivers before we head into the theme park, BECAUSE YOU'RE A LEGAL ASSISTANT lololol?") might be friendly banter. The comment about the round of drinks and unemployment is rough because that's seriously not how being unemployed works, but hey, maybe A is just clueless about these things and trying to be funny.
I personally don't know which of these responses is the best for you, or the most apt characterization of A (though I feel like if you were leaning toward #3, you wouldn't have written this post). But all of them are responses that you're allowed to have. And if you decide that A is a poop milkshake, that's completely OK. You don't have to be friends if you don't like the way your "friend" is treating you. You don't even need a reason to stop being friends!
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 12:51 PM on February 12, 2019
1. This is a "poop milkshake" situation, and you need to gracefully exit the friendship. It doesn't matter if A is nice in private. Someone who bullies you is not your friend.
2. A means well but isn't being a good friend to you right now. You should have a talk with her about the way that these bullying comments make you feel, and then see if her behavior changes over time.
3. It's hard to know whether comments like the examples you gave are intentional bullying, or just mild ribbing. A good friend who I trusted teasing me about my job ("Don't you want to read the fine print on these liability waivers before we head into the theme park, BECAUSE YOU'RE A LEGAL ASSISTANT lololol?") might be friendly banter. The comment about the round of drinks and unemployment is rough because that's seriously not how being unemployed works, but hey, maybe A is just clueless about these things and trying to be funny.
I personally don't know which of these responses is the best for you, or the most apt characterization of A (though I feel like if you were leaning toward #3, you wouldn't have written this post). But all of them are responses that you're allowed to have. And if you decide that A is a poop milkshake, that's completely OK. You don't have to be friends if you don't like the way your "friend" is treating you. You don't even need a reason to stop being friends!
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 12:51 PM on February 12, 2019
Have you all ever been romantically or sexually involved? Or was there some rejection of one of you by the other? I know friendships can be complicated, but it sounds like A has a lot of emotions invested in interactions with you, and I'm wondering if at some point A made some romantic advances that you rejected and is carrying around some anger because of that.
Having said that: this behavior doesn't seem okay no matter what! What value do you derive from this friendship? I'm wondering what you are getting out of it to make it worth putting up with this behavior towards you.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:18 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Having said that: this behavior doesn't seem okay no matter what! What value do you derive from this friendship? I'm wondering what you are getting out of it to make it worth putting up with this behavior towards you.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:18 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
this behavior reminds me uncannily of that of an estranged parents' toward me throughout grad school, where I was both undermined and insulted constantly in the presence of others and yet complimented and reassured when I was vocally insecure in private.
This leapt out at me as one of the reasons you could be so "hooked in" by this kind of behaviour from a friend. When a parent is nasty towards a child, the child learns all kinds of ways of coping with the negative treatment, because they have to for survival. That conditioning can be very hard to break and can even be projected onto other people. You had to get along with your parent despite their bad behaviour, but you don't have to "get along" with this friend unless you want to.
As for why this person does it, I think the others have summed it up: some combination of envy, possessiveness/familiarity, and an odd sense of humour. It's not worth spending a lot of time parsing it out. If you want to hold onto the friendship, have a conversation with your friend about how much the specific behaviour hurts you, and ask them to stop it. If they don't, you'll know they aren't worth your investment of time and emotional energy.
posted by rpfields at 1:33 PM on February 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
This leapt out at me as one of the reasons you could be so "hooked in" by this kind of behaviour from a friend. When a parent is nasty towards a child, the child learns all kinds of ways of coping with the negative treatment, because they have to for survival. That conditioning can be very hard to break and can even be projected onto other people. You had to get along with your parent despite their bad behaviour, but you don't have to "get along" with this friend unless you want to.
As for why this person does it, I think the others have summed it up: some combination of envy, possessiveness/familiarity, and an odd sense of humour. It's not worth spending a lot of time parsing it out. If you want to hold onto the friendship, have a conversation with your friend about how much the specific behaviour hurts you, and ask them to stop it. If they don't, you'll know they aren't worth your investment of time and emotional energy.
posted by rpfields at 1:33 PM on February 12, 2019 [11 favorites]
is there something wonky with the way I am processing these comments that is causing me to take it harsher or more threatening than may be intended?
Possibly? I mean, I wasn't there, but both of the examples you gave here sound like they could have been harsh or totally mild.
The thing about being flush when you paid the bill could have been a "hey look on the bright side, things don't seem to be too bad" comment. The "statistician" one sounds milder than, say, the ribbing I give my friend who recently made partner about how now he's a big boss; and it would gobsmack me to hear that he was hurt by my jokes. If you really think your friend is being cruel, well, you're there and we're not; but if you think maybe she means no harm, then tell her "hey I'm sensitive about job stuff, let's knock it off with the comments" and see what happens.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:35 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Possibly? I mean, I wasn't there, but both of the examples you gave here sound like they could have been harsh or totally mild.
The thing about being flush when you paid the bill could have been a "hey look on the bright side, things don't seem to be too bad" comment. The "statistician" one sounds milder than, say, the ribbing I give my friend who recently made partner about how now he's a big boss; and it would gobsmack me to hear that he was hurt by my jokes. If you really think your friend is being cruel, well, you're there and we're not; but if you think maybe she means no harm, then tell her "hey I'm sensitive about job stuff, let's knock it off with the comments" and see what happens.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:35 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
This sounds like major insecurity due to the performative/public snips rather than a uniform distribution of snips. I'd probably counter with a sarcastic response - something like, "you're such a sweet talker, you always know how to say the nicest things" or "incredible how you always know how to lift others up with your kind comments" or "you're always such a ray of sunshine when we're out."
If you don't feel comfortable or in a space to snip back right away with a comment that points out how shitty their comment was, you can elect to not go out in groups with them. And, I'd tell them why if asked. It's unpleasant to be snipped at and put in your place in front of others. I'd tell them that their insecurity in groups seems to result in shitty comments directed at you and that it makes you feel bad and uneasy to be around them because you never know if you're going to have to endure some disrespectful quip. If they protest, I'd point out that you never speak to them in front of others in a disrespectful or belittling way and if the comments are meant to be funny, it's 100% not funny to insult a friend and then tell them that they can't take a "joke." A is doing this as a social power play and it's unpleasant and falling flat. It's fine to tell them that.
posted by quince at 2:26 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
If you don't feel comfortable or in a space to snip back right away with a comment that points out how shitty their comment was, you can elect to not go out in groups with them. And, I'd tell them why if asked. It's unpleasant to be snipped at and put in your place in front of others. I'd tell them that their insecurity in groups seems to result in shitty comments directed at you and that it makes you feel bad and uneasy to be around them because you never know if you're going to have to endure some disrespectful quip. If they protest, I'd point out that you never speak to them in front of others in a disrespectful or belittling way and if the comments are meant to be funny, it's 100% not funny to insult a friend and then tell them that they can't take a "joke." A is doing this as a social power play and it's unpleasant and falling flat. It's fine to tell them that.
posted by quince at 2:26 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
When they say nasty comments to you in a group, part of the social contract is that that you’re supposed to laugh it off, to show it doesn’t hurt, which allows them to say horrible things and consistently get away with it. You need to break this and allow the comment to fall flat, leave a lot of dead air and let the group actually experience how nasty it is.
This is how you do it
Mean Friend; A statistician who can’t work out a tip, gee it’s little wonder you were unemployed for so long
You: (look visibly upset) ...pause...pause...pause. “Wow, um, okay then. That was hurtful”..more dead air.
Mean friend will probably be as embarrassed as hell, which they should be, and everyone will be staring at them, wondering why they’re such an asshole. You haven’t said anything bad back, you’ve simply called attention to their own behaviour. Every time I’ve used this technique, not only has it never happened again, that person has avoided me like the plague ever since because they’ve been shamed and they know they can’t get away with their behaviour around me anymore.
To be clear, only use this if it’s a genuinely nasty comment, if it’s gentle teasing, you’ll just be seen as overly sensitive.
posted by Jubey at 3:28 PM on February 12, 2019 [10 favorites]
This is how you do it
Mean Friend; A statistician who can’t work out a tip, gee it’s little wonder you were unemployed for so long
You: (look visibly upset) ...pause...pause...pause. “Wow, um, okay then. That was hurtful”..more dead air.
Mean friend will probably be as embarrassed as hell, which they should be, and everyone will be staring at them, wondering why they’re such an asshole. You haven’t said anything bad back, you’ve simply called attention to their own behaviour. Every time I’ve used this technique, not only has it never happened again, that person has avoided me like the plague ever since because they’ve been shamed and they know they can’t get away with their behaviour around me anymore.
To be clear, only use this if it’s a genuinely nasty comment, if it’s gentle teasing, you’ll just be seen as overly sensitive.
posted by Jubey at 3:28 PM on February 12, 2019 [10 favorites]
Here is my take:
This person is intensely envious of you. They've secretly held you up as a role model of someone (similar upbringing) who has succeeded despite challenges that defeated them, and they are constantly comparing themselves against you, using you as a measuring stick. Whatever they criticize you about is something that they are deeply angry at themselves about. They build you up in their mind, but simultaneously cut you down a peg in public because you represent something they feel they can't be or failed to be and they are pissed about that.
You didn't sign up to be this person's measuring stick and until they can control their envy in public, I would avoid them.
I suspect that you will get gaslighted if you try to bring this up with them and improve the situation. "Oh, I'm just teasing you, you know I think the world of you", etc. Don't believe it. They are pissed off at themselves for not living up to their own internal standards, and you happen to be what they wish they were.
posted by skye.dancer at 3:39 PM on February 12, 2019 [10 favorites]
This person is intensely envious of you. They've secretly held you up as a role model of someone (similar upbringing) who has succeeded despite challenges that defeated them, and they are constantly comparing themselves against you, using you as a measuring stick. Whatever they criticize you about is something that they are deeply angry at themselves about. They build you up in their mind, but simultaneously cut you down a peg in public because you represent something they feel they can't be or failed to be and they are pissed about that.
You didn't sign up to be this person's measuring stick and until they can control their envy in public, I would avoid them.
I suspect that you will get gaslighted if you try to bring this up with them and improve the situation. "Oh, I'm just teasing you, you know I think the world of you", etc. Don't believe it. They are pissed off at themselves for not living up to their own internal standards, and you happen to be what they wish they were.
posted by skye.dancer at 3:39 PM on February 12, 2019 [10 favorites]
Typically it is something underhanded like getting a bill for a meal and A snapping something along the lines of "Figuring out the tip shouldn't be hard for YOU, Ms.Statistician." Or when I was unemployed for a brief period I was chided during a meal for "bringing in more monthly" in my benefits than "most people who work full time" because, I guess, I was able to pay for a round of beers despite being out of work?
Myself, I wouldn't even classify this as mild teasing. Heck I remember back in the day saying to friends over drinks that "My unemployment cheque is bigger than my partner's full time work cheque". Because it was true. And kind of weird. and it makes you think about how we value people and their work in our society.
Similarly, if a friend said to me : "oh, it shouldn't be too hard for YOU to find drugs on this island, what with your extensive criminal background" I'd be like "damn straight!" or maybe "you know it!" or "no arrests, no record -- clear signs of a criminal mastermind, now follow me!" or maybe, if it seemed to be somehow like they were looking down on me for this (I can't imagine why I'd be friends with someone who looked down on me for being me, but w/e): "well, it's not like we can count on YOU to do it, what with your bland, rule-following, beige domestic background"
So having written the above, it looks like my natural strategies in responding to stuff like this from friends is -- i either lean WAY into it, or I overhand spike it back at them. Interesting. I'm not that's how its supposed to work, but it seems to work for me regardless. (I have few friends)
So yes I think there's a not insignificant chance, based on what you've provided, that perhaps you're being a little over-sensitive. Especially when you take into account the genuinely friendly things this person has done for (or said to) you, which I have personally rarely experienced from anyone but a Significant Other.
I am not you tho, and thus my advice may come from a world that simply doesn't resemble your own. And that's fine too.
posted by some loser at 4:04 PM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
Myself, I wouldn't even classify this as mild teasing. Heck I remember back in the day saying to friends over drinks that "My unemployment cheque is bigger than my partner's full time work cheque". Because it was true. And kind of weird. and it makes you think about how we value people and their work in our society.
Similarly, if a friend said to me : "oh, it shouldn't be too hard for YOU to find drugs on this island, what with your extensive criminal background" I'd be like "damn straight!" or maybe "you know it!" or "no arrests, no record -- clear signs of a criminal mastermind, now follow me!" or maybe, if it seemed to be somehow like they were looking down on me for this (I can't imagine why I'd be friends with someone who looked down on me for being me, but w/e): "well, it's not like we can count on YOU to do it, what with your bland, rule-following, beige domestic background"
So having written the above, it looks like my natural strategies in responding to stuff like this from friends is -- i either lean WAY into it, or I overhand spike it back at them. Interesting. I'm not that's how its supposed to work, but it seems to work for me regardless. (I have few friends)
So yes I think there's a not insignificant chance, based on what you've provided, that perhaps you're being a little over-sensitive. Especially when you take into account the genuinely friendly things this person has done for (or said to) you, which I have personally rarely experienced from anyone but a Significant Other.
I am not you tho, and thus my advice may come from a world that simply doesn't resemble your own. And that's fine too.
posted by some loser at 4:04 PM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
I don't know what to do think about this because it seems as though my entire existence as a person is something that A finds irksome but at the same time they will also tell me they love me, miss me and think about me often.
This stands out to me as a standard practice in unhealthy relationships, and part of the answer to the question of why people stay, i.e. 'they aren't like this all the time,' because it can keep hope alive that the relationship can be saved. The poem "I got flowers today" speaks to this dynamic, but it also contains descriptions of violence that can be very hard to read.
Another thing that can help keep people in unhealthy relationships is anything that can convince the survivor that they somehow caused the abuse, i.e. if only you weren't so accomplished and successful. In this situation, it sounds like you are searching for ways to blame yourself, but you also note that A always seems to find a way to snipe at you, no matter what you do. I use the term 'abuse' somewhat generically here, because A's intent doesn't seem clear based on what you have written, but insulting you in public, even as a 'joke,' especially when A knows it is harmful to you, would be considered abusive conduct according to standard definitions of the term.
When a survivor finally decides that enough is enough, there often is grief after recognizing that the other person needs to do some hard work before they can be safe to interact with. Hopefully A will demonstrate empathy and respect for your boundaries, especially because it sounds like this friendship is meaningful to you and like you'd much rather just have A recognize how their behavior impacts you and why they need to stop. If they refuse, then you have more clarity about the emotional safety of the friendship, but particularly based on the nice things you say about A, it seems possible that they don't realize that the 'jokes' are hurtful to you.
Of course, if A teases or insults you for asking them to stop engaging in that kind of behavior, that would seem like a bad sign about the future of your friendship, but it also would provide more information that could help with making a decision about what to do next. It's not 'just a joke' when it's not funny and causes you to feel bad and not safe engaging in the meaningful parts of the friendship, and I very strongly believe that people who are able to be true friends can easily accept that.
posted by Little Dawn at 4:05 PM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
This stands out to me as a standard practice in unhealthy relationships, and part of the answer to the question of why people stay, i.e. 'they aren't like this all the time,' because it can keep hope alive that the relationship can be saved. The poem "I got flowers today" speaks to this dynamic, but it also contains descriptions of violence that can be very hard to read.
Another thing that can help keep people in unhealthy relationships is anything that can convince the survivor that they somehow caused the abuse, i.e. if only you weren't so accomplished and successful. In this situation, it sounds like you are searching for ways to blame yourself, but you also note that A always seems to find a way to snipe at you, no matter what you do. I use the term 'abuse' somewhat generically here, because A's intent doesn't seem clear based on what you have written, but insulting you in public, even as a 'joke,' especially when A knows it is harmful to you, would be considered abusive conduct according to standard definitions of the term.
When a survivor finally decides that enough is enough, there often is grief after recognizing that the other person needs to do some hard work before they can be safe to interact with. Hopefully A will demonstrate empathy and respect for your boundaries, especially because it sounds like this friendship is meaningful to you and like you'd much rather just have A recognize how their behavior impacts you and why they need to stop. If they refuse, then you have more clarity about the emotional safety of the friendship, but particularly based on the nice things you say about A, it seems possible that they don't realize that the 'jokes' are hurtful to you.
Of course, if A teases or insults you for asking them to stop engaging in that kind of behavior, that would seem like a bad sign about the future of your friendship, but it also would provide more information that could help with making a decision about what to do next. It's not 'just a joke' when it's not funny and causes you to feel bad and not safe engaging in the meaningful parts of the friendship, and I very strongly believe that people who are able to be true friends can easily accept that.
posted by Little Dawn at 4:05 PM on February 12, 2019 [5 favorites]
This person is mean girling you. I have to wonder how many people saying it’s a misunderstanding have ever really been in a mean girl situation; I’m guessing very few. It’s a distinct flavor or emotionally abusive relationship, the kind people euphemistically refer to as “bullying,” but it’s still abusive.
You do not need to be in relationships with people who treat you like this. Her intent, what she thinks her intent is, does not matter, which is good because she’s probably not emotionally aware enough to give you a straight answer on that either way. What matters is the way this relationship makes you feel, which is shitty.
Get out. You are not trapped in this attachment, though it may feel like it. It may be worth talking it over with a therapist.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:31 PM on February 12, 2019 [14 favorites]
You do not need to be in relationships with people who treat you like this. Her intent, what she thinks her intent is, does not matter, which is good because she’s probably not emotionally aware enough to give you a straight answer on that either way. What matters is the way this relationship makes you feel, which is shitty.
Get out. You are not trapped in this attachment, though it may feel like it. It may be worth talking it over with a therapist.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:31 PM on February 12, 2019 [14 favorites]
Response by poster: Just as a note I tried not to make gender a possible aspect influencing this behavior but, yeah, it honestly does seem mean-girlish in ways. I want to remain objective as I’m trying to give this person the benefit of the doubt and fairly examine my own role in my reactions as I thought they were above that nonsense. It would really sting if they weren’t (given how many friends I’ve cut off due to mean-girl shinanegans that I’m honestly too old for at this point).
Those that I noted aren’t the only instances of A digging into me, just the most recent examples. The snipe at my job and my financial status has happened at least 3 times in my memories of us having hung out together.
I appreciate all of your perspectives thus far.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:12 PM on February 12, 2019
Those that I noted aren’t the only instances of A digging into me, just the most recent examples. The snipe at my job and my financial status has happened at least 3 times in my memories of us having hung out together.
I appreciate all of your perspectives thus far.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:12 PM on February 12, 2019
If previous attempts to talk about this dynamic have not gone well or haven't seemed to make a difference, I would consider mourning this friendship and letting it go. I went through a very similar dynamic in an intimate (but strictly platonic) friendship, with a similar background on their part. I loved them and considered them my best friend. But by the end, interactions with them gave me anxiety-nausea and the whiplash between hot and cold was unbearable. I tried talking it through with them, finding a reason to explain it to myself, like maybe I just wasn't being fair? But in the end I couldn't do it anymore and ended the friendship.
An approach of "if you can't be nice, I'm taking my toys and going home" might work, just to give yourself a break and maybe give A a sense of what they're doing, but you're not being too sensitive and you're not overreacting. Friendships shouldn't have this dynamic, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
posted by lesser weasel at 5:40 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
An approach of "if you can't be nice, I'm taking my toys and going home" might work, just to give yourself a break and maybe give A a sense of what they're doing, but you're not being too sensitive and you're not overreacting. Friendships shouldn't have this dynamic, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
posted by lesser weasel at 5:40 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
The thing about your post that I think is key is that A is making you feel terrible, over and over, and you can't figure out how to break the cycle. The thing is, you can't break the cycle except by leaving the relationship, because you're not doing anything wrong or messed up.
A knows what they're doing and is enjoying hurting you, getting you to trust them by offering support, and hurt you again. That's why they're nice in private and mean in public: you get intermittent reward, they get the plausible deniability of "oh it was just a joke, why are you so sensitive" in public and emotional intimacy in private, both reinforcing their sense of power.
A is not a nice person and my recommendation is getting them out of your life.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:23 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
A knows what they're doing and is enjoying hurting you, getting you to trust them by offering support, and hurt you again. That's why they're nice in private and mean in public: you get intermittent reward, they get the plausible deniability of "oh it was just a joke, why are you so sensitive" in public and emotional intimacy in private, both reinforcing their sense of power.
A is not a nice person and my recommendation is getting them out of your life.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:23 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
They aren’t behaving great, but I have a wierd feeling that this, “I've done my best to be supportive of them and never gave a thought to treating them as anything other than an equal despite our differing socioeconomic statuses,” may be triggering something for them. It’s pretty telling.
posted by MountainDaisy at 6:44 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by MountainDaisy at 6:44 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
Based on your most recent update, DTMFA.
posted by Jubey at 6:57 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 6:57 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
this need to snipe me brutally in public and group settings.
why not get a second opinion from someone who was there? this situation is so much better than the alternative (a person who's nice and sweet when other people are around and tears you down behind closed doors) because if it always happens in public, there are always observers, and you never have to be left wondering about am I excusing an abuser out of an unhealthy need to please and forgive, or am I imagining brutality and 'chiding' and resentment of my very existence when everyone else heard a friendly joke. ask someone who heard one of these comments! if there's anybody who's been there for more than one of them, try that person first. You can do this without giving a backstory or being dramatic; just say that comment X really hurt your feelings, but nobody else reacted so you're wondering how bad it sounded to other people.
if this makes someone feel pressured to apologize for not standing up for you in the moment, that's good. in fact I'm surprised that doesn't bother you more -- if I hear one of my friends make a totally unprovoked verbal attack on another friend, I'll say something even if I don't want to get involved, because it's usually more uncomfortable not to.
everybody here is stuck saying some more palatable version of A is a manipulative abuser just like your parents and your reflexes prove it or You sound really patronizing and oversensitive, just like MY parents, and MY reflexes prove it. but you have direct witnesses available to you -- use them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:16 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
why not get a second opinion from someone who was there? this situation is so much better than the alternative (a person who's nice and sweet when other people are around and tears you down behind closed doors) because if it always happens in public, there are always observers, and you never have to be left wondering about am I excusing an abuser out of an unhealthy need to please and forgive, or am I imagining brutality and 'chiding' and resentment of my very existence when everyone else heard a friendly joke. ask someone who heard one of these comments! if there's anybody who's been there for more than one of them, try that person first. You can do this without giving a backstory or being dramatic; just say that comment X really hurt your feelings, but nobody else reacted so you're wondering how bad it sounded to other people.
if this makes someone feel pressured to apologize for not standing up for you in the moment, that's good. in fact I'm surprised that doesn't bother you more -- if I hear one of my friends make a totally unprovoked verbal attack on another friend, I'll say something even if I don't want to get involved, because it's usually more uncomfortable not to.
everybody here is stuck saying some more palatable version of A is a manipulative abuser just like your parents and your reflexes prove it or You sound really patronizing and oversensitive, just like MY parents, and MY reflexes prove it. but you have direct witnesses available to you -- use them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:16 PM on February 12, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think you need to ask yourself honestly if you come from a world of people who communicate by and through passive aggression, micro aggressions, manipulations, implications, provocations, snide remarks, "mean girl" behavior and just overall indirect confusing nastiness... if you do you might be thinking you "heard" something that just isn't there. Or if your friend is of the same, maybe she actually is psychologically torturing and abusing you deliberately for some secretly harbored internally wounded reason... who knows right? Maybe just ask her yourself?
It just doesn't seem likely or conceivable to me as I personally do not at all understand how or why you are expericing such extreme anguish over the examples provided of what your friend has said. But then again, I'm from a world of people who communicate in the way "some loser" has described above.
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:59 PM on February 12, 2019
It just doesn't seem likely or conceivable to me as I personally do not at all understand how or why you are expericing such extreme anguish over the examples provided of what your friend has said. But then again, I'm from a world of people who communicate in the way "some loser" has described above.
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:59 PM on February 12, 2019
I thought they were above that nonsense
In my experience it’s not really something people are above, or grow out of, and in that sense I wish we had a less diminishing term than “mean girling.” I think this particular kind of abusive behavior is most obvious in young girls because they’re less skilled at it, but for people who grew up with this — who weren’t just subjected to it during school, but who grew up with this in their families — it’s just...how they react to stress and bad feelings and perceived threats. It’s a learned pattern of abuse as a way of managing emotions by taking them out on others just like any other, and people who continue to employ it into adulthood get better at evading consequences for it. They get more manipulative, more plausibly deniable, better at gas lighting, the whole 9. I mean...practice makes perfect, you know?
Some people don’t “grow” out of this, is what I’m saying, and even the ones who do retain that set of social tools — and sometimes those tools come out under stress, when they feel particularly vulnerable.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:05 PM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
In my experience it’s not really something people are above, or grow out of, and in that sense I wish we had a less diminishing term than “mean girling.” I think this particular kind of abusive behavior is most obvious in young girls because they’re less skilled at it, but for people who grew up with this — who weren’t just subjected to it during school, but who grew up with this in their families — it’s just...how they react to stress and bad feelings and perceived threats. It’s a learned pattern of abuse as a way of managing emotions by taking them out on others just like any other, and people who continue to employ it into adulthood get better at evading consequences for it. They get more manipulative, more plausibly deniable, better at gas lighting, the whole 9. I mean...practice makes perfect, you know?
Some people don’t “grow” out of this, is what I’m saying, and even the ones who do retain that set of social tools — and sometimes those tools come out under stress, when they feel particularly vulnerable.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:05 PM on February 12, 2019 [4 favorites]
I’m also kind of doing the Stan Marsh nose pinch at everyone who’s like “I dunno, sounds like you’re overreacting, that doesn’t seem all that brutal to me.”
Like, yes, that is exactly the point. That is how this works. OP revealed their own insecurities about something to A — revealed a secret vulnerability — and then, in public, A says things that are designed to poke at that secret vulnerability while not appearing hostile to anyone who didn’t witness those exact confidences from OP to A. The additional gas lighting is part of the point. It’s like somehow designing a whistle that can only be heard by one person and then playing it constantly, in public, to the point of pain. The confusion and agony of doubting your own reality is the point.
Kinda bewildered by all the people who seem to have zero experience with this being like “maybe you ARE crazy.” Thats why this shit works so well.
Seriously, A is bad news.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:13 PM on February 12, 2019 [13 favorites]
Like, yes, that is exactly the point. That is how this works. OP revealed their own insecurities about something to A — revealed a secret vulnerability — and then, in public, A says things that are designed to poke at that secret vulnerability while not appearing hostile to anyone who didn’t witness those exact confidences from OP to A. The additional gas lighting is part of the point. It’s like somehow designing a whistle that can only be heard by one person and then playing it constantly, in public, to the point of pain. The confusion and agony of doubting your own reality is the point.
Kinda bewildered by all the people who seem to have zero experience with this being like “maybe you ARE crazy.” Thats why this shit works so well.
Seriously, A is bad news.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:13 PM on February 12, 2019 [13 favorites]
I have plenty of experience with people who are manipulative abusers, unfortunately.
I also have experience with people who come from a social context of smack-talking and have a tin ear for how it goes over with specific people.
It's pretty easy to distinguish between the two, honestly--if you speak to members of the latter group about how they're making you feel, they will be aghast and apologetic and honestly try to mend their ways. Members of the former group won't change.
OP doesn't have to do this. If she just wants to ditch or ghost or even tell off A, she's justified. But if the relationship otherwise seems worthwhile, telling A how A's jibes make OP feel is also an available option and doesn't constitute knuckling under to an abuser.
posted by praemunire at 8:20 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
I also have experience with people who come from a social context of smack-talking and have a tin ear for how it goes over with specific people.
It's pretty easy to distinguish between the two, honestly--if you speak to members of the latter group about how they're making you feel, they will be aghast and apologetic and honestly try to mend their ways. Members of the former group won't change.
OP doesn't have to do this. If she just wants to ditch or ghost or even tell off A, she's justified. But if the relationship otherwise seems worthwhile, telling A how A's jibes make OP feel is also an available option and doesn't constitute knuckling under to an abuser.
posted by praemunire at 8:20 PM on February 12, 2019 [6 favorites]
Her intent, what she thinks her intent is, does not matter
This is very true, because the intent or reason why doesn't matter when identifying a behavior as abusive. However, based on the limited information available, it seems possible that A could be made aware of the impact in a gentle, non-accusatory manner, and then be genuinely horrified that they caused harm. My comment above is related to apparent uncertainty about how A might respond, so the question seems more about how much risk you want to tolerate when trying to address this issue.
I also don't agree about a need for a corroborating witness before your experience of feeling demeaned and insulted can be considered a valid and believable concern. You have the right to be believed about your own experience, and the key question seems to be whether A can be a safe and respectful friend for you.
My perspective is informed by my experience representing survivors of abuse in protection order cases, including the need to offer options instead of directives to help protect the client's right to make their own decisions. Ultimately, I think some loser's closing line is on point: I am not you tho, and thus my advice may come from a world that simply doesn't resemble your own. And that's fine too. You have the most information about the context and will always be in the best position to make the decisions that work best for you.
posted by Little Dawn at 8:38 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is very true, because the intent or reason why doesn't matter when identifying a behavior as abusive. However, based on the limited information available, it seems possible that A could be made aware of the impact in a gentle, non-accusatory manner, and then be genuinely horrified that they caused harm. My comment above is related to apparent uncertainty about how A might respond, so the question seems more about how much risk you want to tolerate when trying to address this issue.
I also don't agree about a need for a corroborating witness before your experience of feeling demeaned and insulted can be considered a valid and believable concern. You have the right to be believed about your own experience, and the key question seems to be whether A can be a safe and respectful friend for you.
My perspective is informed by my experience representing survivors of abuse in protection order cases, including the need to offer options instead of directives to help protect the client's right to make their own decisions. Ultimately, I think some loser's closing line is on point: I am not you tho, and thus my advice may come from a world that simply doesn't resemble your own. And that's fine too. You have the most information about the context and will always be in the best position to make the decisions that work best for you.
posted by Little Dawn at 8:38 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Kinda bewildered by all the people who seem to have zero experience with this being like “maybe you ARE crazy.” Thats why this shit works so well.
It's not so much that as it is choosing to "hear" it as ribbing and good natured kidding around. If you do that, and then choose to respond to it as such, then the ill-intentioned person will perceive it as a personal slight and in my experience will give you the gift of an extended period of silent treatment, and the problem "friendship" will take care of itself and die a natural death, or, the good-natured person will very much enjoy your shared humor and returned banter and many more good times will be had.
posted by OnefortheLast at 8:44 PM on February 12, 2019
OP, if you're experiencing this much insecurity and personal distress as a result of those insecurities, then you might find some relief in some type of therapy. Your friends can't be expected to and held responsible for managing them for you and walking on egg shells all of the time; all people are imperfect, they will disappoint you at times. At the same time, if you are finding this friend to be a toxic and overall negative presence in your life, and are in the process of transitioning your personal associations to ones that feel better for you, then you don't need to question yourself or your own convictions, nor do you need anyone's permission to end the friendship, just do it and be well in yourself and your life.
posted by OnefortheLast at 8:59 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by OnefortheLast at 8:59 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
Last comment, I swear. OP, it seems to me that some important factor is being left out here, because this friendship to me doesn't at all sound like a normal healthy friendship, it sounds like an overly intimate failed romantic situation turned friends kind of friendship.
posted by OnefortheLast at 9:35 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by OnefortheLast at 9:35 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's hard to know whether she's being meanspirited or misguided, but the fact is that it's hurting your feelings. I think it's worth mentioning it to her and seeing if she changes her behaviour.
The "5 Love Languages" model helped me understand why other people were didn't like my "jokes" about them, and also why those same people insisted on praising me in public when it made me so uncomfortable. If she means well, she might appreciate the heads up about the different ways people show and understand displays of love. This may not be the case for her, but thought I throw it into the mix just in case it resonates with you. This was the By the Book podcast episode that got me thinking about it.
posted by kjs4 at 10:17 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
The "5 Love Languages" model helped me understand why other people were didn't like my "jokes" about them, and also why those same people insisted on praising me in public when it made me so uncomfortable. If she means well, she might appreciate the heads up about the different ways people show and understand displays of love. This may not be the case for her, but thought I throw it into the mix just in case it resonates with you. This was the By the Book podcast episode that got me thinking about it.
posted by kjs4 at 10:17 PM on February 12, 2019 [1 favorite]
My armchair theory:
In public, A is trying to appear relatable at your expense by positioning you as That Rich and Successful Person whereas they are The Common Man. Rather than engaging the group in a nuanced discussion of inequality, A is going for quick, performative ire taken out on you because more supportive behavior would seem to condone wealth and status as a concept and that is something A does not want to be seen to do.
In private, A is relating to you as an actual human being and not a caricature.
People sometimes do extreme, hurtful things in public to signal their values to onlookers. If you think that might be at play, maybe there is a way to talk about it with A and turn those public gatherings into fruitful discussions instead of misplaced sniping.
posted by delight at 2:30 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
In public, A is trying to appear relatable at your expense by positioning you as That Rich and Successful Person whereas they are The Common Man. Rather than engaging the group in a nuanced discussion of inequality, A is going for quick, performative ire taken out on you because more supportive behavior would seem to condone wealth and status as a concept and that is something A does not want to be seen to do.
In private, A is relating to you as an actual human being and not a caricature.
People sometimes do extreme, hurtful things in public to signal their values to onlookers. If you think that might be at play, maybe there is a way to talk about it with A and turn those public gatherings into fruitful discussions instead of misplaced sniping.
posted by delight at 2:30 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Just as a note: A and I were never romantically involved and if there are romantic feelings I'd be a bit shocked. They've been in a long-term relationship since we've been friends and they're very vocal with their love and affection and giving to other people.
Things took a nose dive in our friendship one day, while we were discussing recent events in our social world, I expressed concern for another friend of mine who seemed to be dealing with her problems by ignoring them and getting married. A blew up at me in this sobbing rage as though I had insulted them. Looking back it was pretty judgmental of me but I have no idea why A was insulted by it on my other friend's behalf (as far as I know they were barely acquaintances). I apologized but A grew distant for almost half a year without an explanation (which, despite my attempts to reconcile, was fairly painful) but then eventually came back around. Since then they've been hot and cold with me in this way. Not trying to blame myself for this, but that day, to me, seemed like a marked changing point.
Not sure if that helps. I still have no idea what happened there other than I hit a nerve that I wasn't aware was even a nerve.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:22 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Things took a nose dive in our friendship one day, while we were discussing recent events in our social world, I expressed concern for another friend of mine who seemed to be dealing with her problems by ignoring them and getting married. A blew up at me in this sobbing rage as though I had insulted them. Looking back it was pretty judgmental of me but I have no idea why A was insulted by it on my other friend's behalf (as far as I know they were barely acquaintances). I apologized but A grew distant for almost half a year without an explanation (which, despite my attempts to reconcile, was fairly painful) but then eventually came back around. Since then they've been hot and cold with me in this way. Not trying to blame myself for this, but that day, to me, seemed like a marked changing point.
Not sure if that helps. I still have no idea what happened there other than I hit a nerve that I wasn't aware was even a nerve.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:22 AM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
This person is not your friend.
posted by uberchet at 8:07 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 8:07 AM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
it seems possible that A could be made aware of the impact in a gentle, non-accusatory manner, and then be genuinely horrified that they caused harm.
And if A is ill-intentioned, they will pretend to be horrified, possibly give you a brief respite, and then start again. And when they do start again, they'll use the conversation you had where you said that they were hurting you against you, and it will continue.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:21 AM on February 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
And if A is ill-intentioned, they will pretend to be horrified, possibly give you a brief respite, and then start again. And when they do start again, they'll use the conversation you had where you said that they were hurting you against you, and it will continue.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:21 AM on February 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
If you could put your friend in a sobbing rage without intending to hurt her or even having any idea why she was so upset by what you said, doesn't it seem entirely possible that she's equally unaware of how her remarks are affecting you? I would keep that in mind while reading comments from people who feel sure she knows exactly what she's doing.
You might be thinking that the two situations are completely different because you were talking about someone else she doesn't even know that well and she's talking about you. But maybe she felt the things you were criticizing in that other person were things that could also be true of her and that you surely must have seen the parallels yourself and realized how she would feel. Or maybe hearing you talk judgmentally about another friend made her feel she wasn't safe from your judgment either. Clearly, the two of you saw that conversation in very different ways and you may both be seeing the comments you consider public insults in very different ways as well. Maybe she even feels like she's giving you public compliments. If it weren't for the fact that you used words like "snapping" and "chided" they would actually sound more like compliments than insults to me - pointing out that with your skills it should be easy to figure the tip and that you've been so successful in life that even on unemployment you make more than most other people. She may assume those are things you're so proud of that bringing them up could never feel like an insult.
posted by Redstart at 10:33 AM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
You might be thinking that the two situations are completely different because you were talking about someone else she doesn't even know that well and she's talking about you. But maybe she felt the things you were criticizing in that other person were things that could also be true of her and that you surely must have seen the parallels yourself and realized how she would feel. Or maybe hearing you talk judgmentally about another friend made her feel she wasn't safe from your judgment either. Clearly, the two of you saw that conversation in very different ways and you may both be seeing the comments you consider public insults in very different ways as well. Maybe she even feels like she's giving you public compliments. If it weren't for the fact that you used words like "snapping" and "chided" they would actually sound more like compliments than insults to me - pointing out that with your skills it should be easy to figure the tip and that you've been so successful in life that even on unemployment you make more than most other people. She may assume those are things you're so proud of that bringing them up could never feel like an insult.
posted by Redstart at 10:33 AM on February 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
And if A is ill-intentioned, they will pretend to be horrified, possibly give you a brief respite, and then start again.
Honestly, in my experience? That's not what most of them do. They deny that they said those things. They minimize their impact. They accuse the other person of not being able to take a joke, etc. That's part of the power play. I can't say there aren't some subtle sociopaths who will play weirder games, but for most abusers of this ilk the pleasure lies in making you deny the evidence of your own eyes/ears.
posted by praemunire at 1:52 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Honestly, in my experience? That's not what most of them do. They deny that they said those things. They minimize their impact. They accuse the other person of not being able to take a joke, etc. That's part of the power play. I can't say there aren't some subtle sociopaths who will play weirder games, but for most abusers of this ilk the pleasure lies in making you deny the evidence of your own eyes/ears.
posted by praemunire at 1:52 PM on February 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don’t think most of them take pleasure in it, which is I think something that sometimes makes people hesitate to call this stuff what it is. It doesn’t have to be sadistic to be abusive; they don’t even have to be aware of it. That’s the more pernicious variation, IMO. When it comes from a place of fear of being found out or exposed for what they’ve been doing, even to themselves, so they sort of...create this alternate reality in their head that they then try to badger you into accepting.
I don’t think that’s always pleasurable, in case that throws OP off. I think sometimes it’s just desperate. But the effects are the same.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:38 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don’t think that’s always pleasurable, in case that throws OP off. I think sometimes it’s just desperate. But the effects are the same.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:38 PM on February 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don’t know, I was an awkward young woman once who fell into a pattern of sorta-mean humor. I wasn’t trying to be a hurtful jerk, I just had some friends who had that sense of humor and I was trying to be funny like them.
What finally snapped me out of it was someone I cared about telling me he found it hurtful. And I realized it was, and I started training myself to cut it out.
So if you want to keep this friendship, you could give A one more chance. Next time she does it, say “Dude that’s mean! You hurt my feelings!” and see how she reacts. If she doesn’t seem surprised and apologetic, then I think it’s fine to ghost on her. And if you don’t want to go to that effort and want to just drop her as a friend now, that’s OK too.
posted by beandip at 4:27 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
What finally snapped me out of it was someone I cared about telling me he found it hurtful. And I realized it was, and I started training myself to cut it out.
So if you want to keep this friendship, you could give A one more chance. Next time she does it, say “Dude that’s mean! You hurt my feelings!” and see how she reacts. If she doesn’t seem surprised and apologetic, then I think it’s fine to ghost on her. And if you don’t want to go to that effort and want to just drop her as a friend now, that’s OK too.
posted by beandip at 4:27 AM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: The variety of insights is really incredible here. I'm going to give A the benefit of the doubt and talk to her about it the next time it occurs. I want to make it clear that I am aware my own insecurities are making these comments harsher to take, but the way my mind works is that I can easily brush them away but I get bent out of shape emotionally regarding whether I should. That is where the torment comes in: the figuring out if A is intending to insult or undermine me, which is definitely a residue from my shitty upbringing where basically everyone in my family surgically picked at each other with the goal of embarrassing and hurting each other then and brushed it off as "jokes" when someone finally cracked. That may be something A adopted as well from their family dynamic and doesn't realize it. We barely see each other as it is now and it is definitely not one-on-one or for extended periods of time due to the emotional outbursts, so the friendship could be manageable that way. A wants to go on trips together in the future and, I'll be honest, that really makes me uneasy regardless of how much I try to empathize with her behavior.
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:31 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Young Kullervo at 5:31 AM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Have you had a frank conversation with A about this? It is possible that they may be thinking "well, of course YK knows my comments are a joke, I compliment them all the time". I used to be a little rough and ready with the insults when I was young, and I truly thought that everyone understood that I'd never say it if I thought it was true, because that would be insulting and cruel. Of course, people didn't always get that, and even people who did weren't really in the mood for a constant barrage of insults. Luckily, someone had a short, frank conversation with me and I stopped.
Honestly, I'd talk to A. Only by talking to A and asking them to dial things down will you find out if this is some kind of borked way of showing affection/connection or something where you should drop them.
posted by Frowner at 12:16 PM on February 12, 2019 [24 favorites]