Is it wrong to ever ask, "Would you leave me if I gained weight?"
July 22, 2018 7:06 AM Subscribe
My now-ex said he didn't think I was contributing as much to the relationship for reasons that led me to wonder if he would leave me if I gained weight, so I asked him. Was his response acceptable, and should I have even asked in the first place? Snowflakes inside.
My now-ex said he felt like I wasn't contributing as much to our relationship. He said this in couples therapy (that we were in shortly after the driving disputes; see my other MeFi question). We were 2 years into the relationship, late 20s, and it was the first serious relationship for both of us.
We're both slim. I eat more healthy and exercise daily. I have a thyroid issue where I may gain weight (but I didn't know that at the time I asked).
I was shocked and started crying (birth control was making me a weepy, anxious mess. I'm confident I'd not react as strongly now). I was hurt because I had recently made some large changes to be closer to him that I was just starting to regret, and - if I thought about it - I contributed more. His reason was that I wasn't trying hard enough in the sexual area because of two things: 1) he was initiating more - which was true. 2) I also hadn't worn lingerie like he wanted. We had agreed the month before he'd pick up something for me to wear since I didn't know what he liked. (He never picked anything up, and forgot agreeing to that.)
He didn't notice how I was contributing in other ways such as looking up fun activities, wearing specific clothing he mentioned was sexy, and having a hard time going from one birth control to the next (he wanted to use a condom for duel protection from fears of being "trapped" in a pregnancy). I said I'd do those things, but I worried how much the sexual aspect was important to him if it lead to him thinking I didn't contribute as much. He also said things in the past that alluded to liking my skinny body shape, so I asked "Would you leave me if I gained weight?"
After I asked, he hesistated and then said that the sexual part of the relationship was very important to him, and he didn't know what else to say. He had trouble elaborating and tended to shut down and blankly stare at me dazed on difficult topics. I brought up the topic again over the course of a week of trying to push what I needed to hear from him to feel secure. Note I had to prompt him before he would agree in the affirmative.
Eventually I got out from him that, yes, he would still love me, and he added again, but the physical aspect of the relationship is very important to him. He said he would be concerned about my health, and also thinks it's both of our responsibilities to to stay in shape for the other person. Then I asked what if I had an accident or my metabolism slowed down in old age? He said yes, if it was out of our hands then he would stay with me, and he reiterated immediately again - but if we still can, we should stay in shape for the other person. He also had clarified that 10-15 pounds more was ok, and he had been thinking of morbidly obese when I asked. He also had said he wouldn't outright leave, but he would talk to me about it and see if we can work things out. Also, finally he agreed that we both contributed to the relationship equally after I suggested we write down lists of what we did and what we thought the other person did.
Both my therapist and our couples therapist said it was a communication mismatch, that I shouldn't be asking hypothetical questions, and their consensus was that he really cared about me. (Note in therapy I'm usually teary and with a voice full of self-doubt, so maybe that's why they had a different opinion than the MeFi community about the driving question). My therapist had said I seemed to be instagating conflicts with him and have a negative, anxious filter over the relationship. She spent a lot of time reassuring me everything was good with the relationship when I pointed out things that concerned me. She explained to me that if someone is in a relationship, they are in a "contract" with the other person to remain the same, and if one of them changes, the other person has the right to leave anytime (she did say he was being a jerk in his initial response, but it was likely from inexperience, and he corrected himself eventually). I still have trouble wrapping my mind around it since I don't value looks as much - and I loved him for his presence and overall being, which would exist no matter how much he changed.
I had been sensing he had one foot out the door with this avoidant habits, and how he usually added caviets and hesitations to commitments. I was ready to fully commit, but he postponed us moving in together (up until he broke up with me a year later), because he hadn't been comfortable with how things went with the driving stuff and wanted to see changes in me in individual therapy (eight months after working hard to improve my self-esteem and doubts about him in therapy, and I asked if he was ready, and he outright said he hadn't been seeing any changes in me. I was confused as to what he wanted me to change... maybe to not be as critical of him and give him the benefit of the doubt more? Note he had already been going to individual therapy before we were dating, so it's not like he was putting it all on me).
A few days later, I stopped bringing it up, accepting his answers and the two therapists' - chalking it up to my anxious insecurities and that we simply had different values. I'm easily persuaded and doubt myself a lot, so I'm not sure what to think about this situation. I'm guessing I'm in the wrong for asking since people won't know until it happens, and physical attraction is important to most people. I'd like to think in a more secure relationship I wouldn't have felt the need to ask him the question, but I'm not sure.
Were we just incompatible in our values, or should my expectations be changed for future relationships? Are there healthier ways to find out if someone will stick around for the long haul if things get tough, or is that just something that should never be taken for granted? Thanks!
My now-ex said he felt like I wasn't contributing as much to our relationship. He said this in couples therapy (that we were in shortly after the driving disputes; see my other MeFi question). We were 2 years into the relationship, late 20s, and it was the first serious relationship for both of us.
We're both slim. I eat more healthy and exercise daily. I have a thyroid issue where I may gain weight (but I didn't know that at the time I asked).
I was shocked and started crying (birth control was making me a weepy, anxious mess. I'm confident I'd not react as strongly now). I was hurt because I had recently made some large changes to be closer to him that I was just starting to regret, and - if I thought about it - I contributed more. His reason was that I wasn't trying hard enough in the sexual area because of two things: 1) he was initiating more - which was true. 2) I also hadn't worn lingerie like he wanted. We had agreed the month before he'd pick up something for me to wear since I didn't know what he liked. (He never picked anything up, and forgot agreeing to that.)
He didn't notice how I was contributing in other ways such as looking up fun activities, wearing specific clothing he mentioned was sexy, and having a hard time going from one birth control to the next (he wanted to use a condom for duel protection from fears of being "trapped" in a pregnancy). I said I'd do those things, but I worried how much the sexual aspect was important to him if it lead to him thinking I didn't contribute as much. He also said things in the past that alluded to liking my skinny body shape, so I asked "Would you leave me if I gained weight?"
After I asked, he hesistated and then said that the sexual part of the relationship was very important to him, and he didn't know what else to say. He had trouble elaborating and tended to shut down and blankly stare at me dazed on difficult topics. I brought up the topic again over the course of a week of trying to push what I needed to hear from him to feel secure. Note I had to prompt him before he would agree in the affirmative.
Eventually I got out from him that, yes, he would still love me, and he added again, but the physical aspect of the relationship is very important to him. He said he would be concerned about my health, and also thinks it's both of our responsibilities to to stay in shape for the other person. Then I asked what if I had an accident or my metabolism slowed down in old age? He said yes, if it was out of our hands then he would stay with me, and he reiterated immediately again - but if we still can, we should stay in shape for the other person. He also had clarified that 10-15 pounds more was ok, and he had been thinking of morbidly obese when I asked. He also had said he wouldn't outright leave, but he would talk to me about it and see if we can work things out. Also, finally he agreed that we both contributed to the relationship equally after I suggested we write down lists of what we did and what we thought the other person did.
Both my therapist and our couples therapist said it was a communication mismatch, that I shouldn't be asking hypothetical questions, and their consensus was that he really cared about me. (Note in therapy I'm usually teary and with a voice full of self-doubt, so maybe that's why they had a different opinion than the MeFi community about the driving question). My therapist had said I seemed to be instagating conflicts with him and have a negative, anxious filter over the relationship. She spent a lot of time reassuring me everything was good with the relationship when I pointed out things that concerned me. She explained to me that if someone is in a relationship, they are in a "contract" with the other person to remain the same, and if one of them changes, the other person has the right to leave anytime (she did say he was being a jerk in his initial response, but it was likely from inexperience, and he corrected himself eventually). I still have trouble wrapping my mind around it since I don't value looks as much - and I loved him for his presence and overall being, which would exist no matter how much he changed.
I had been sensing he had one foot out the door with this avoidant habits, and how he usually added caviets and hesitations to commitments. I was ready to fully commit, but he postponed us moving in together (up until he broke up with me a year later), because he hadn't been comfortable with how things went with the driving stuff and wanted to see changes in me in individual therapy (eight months after working hard to improve my self-esteem and doubts about him in therapy, and I asked if he was ready, and he outright said he hadn't been seeing any changes in me. I was confused as to what he wanted me to change... maybe to not be as critical of him and give him the benefit of the doubt more? Note he had already been going to individual therapy before we were dating, so it's not like he was putting it all on me).
A few days later, I stopped bringing it up, accepting his answers and the two therapists' - chalking it up to my anxious insecurities and that we simply had different values. I'm easily persuaded and doubt myself a lot, so I'm not sure what to think about this situation. I'm guessing I'm in the wrong for asking since people won't know until it happens, and physical attraction is important to most people. I'd like to think in a more secure relationship I wouldn't have felt the need to ask him the question, but I'm not sure.
Were we just incompatible in our values, or should my expectations be changed for future relationships? Are there healthier ways to find out if someone will stick around for the long haul if things get tough, or is that just something that should never be taken for granted? Thanks!
This guy sounds manipulative and immature. It's good you're broken up because it sounds like the relationship was mostly stressful for you. You don't have to wear lingerie or stay skinny forever to keep a man! Find an adult partner who sees you as an equal and not a project for his boner.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 7:17 AM on July 22, 2018 [81 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 7:17 AM on July 22, 2018 [81 favorites]
You probably wouldn't have felt the need to ask if you'd felt more accepted and less under a critical eye all the time. It sounds like you were really asking if he loved you for your core self. That was something you needed to feel safe about.
As for now, as you are clearly mulling over the relationship in retrospect, I would encourage you not to think you did any specific thing that caused it not to work. You don't have to always say the perfect thing to be accepted by a partner.
posted by nantucket at 7:28 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
As for now, as you are clearly mulling over the relationship in retrospect, I would encourage you not to think you did any specific thing that caused it not to work. You don't have to always say the perfect thing to be accepted by a partner.
posted by nantucket at 7:28 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
She explained to me that if someone is in a relationship, they are in a "contract" with the other person to remain the same, and if one of them changes, the other person has the right to leave anytime
Yes, partners in a relationship have a right to leave at any time, but no, no no no no, a romantic relationship is not a "contract" that each person will remain the same. That's both impossible (aging is a thing) and ridiculous.
How long have you been out of this relationship? You might want to pay attention to whether your anxiety starts to resolve as you get further away from the relationship. Constantly walking on eggshells and feeling judged by a partner are pretty reasonable causes for anxiety.
posted by lazuli at 7:39 AM on July 22, 2018 [77 favorites]
Yes, partners in a relationship have a right to leave at any time, but no, no no no no, a romantic relationship is not a "contract" that each person will remain the same. That's both impossible (aging is a thing) and ridiculous.
How long have you been out of this relationship? You might want to pay attention to whether your anxiety starts to resolve as you get further away from the relationship. Constantly walking on eggshells and feeling judged by a partner are pretty reasonable causes for anxiety.
posted by lazuli at 7:39 AM on July 22, 2018 [77 favorites]
She explained to me that if someone is in a relationship, they are in a "contract" with the other person to remain the same, and if one of them changes, the other person has the right to leave anytime
This is, totally not exaggerating, the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard a therapist say. This person is either actively malign or so stupid that they shouldn’t even talk to other human beings, much less be a therapist.
I don’t think you were wrong to ask that question, frankly, and I think in a healthy relationship hypothetical questions are no big deal — the person can either answer or decline to answer, and it doesn’t turn into a huge drama like this one did. The problem wasn’t your question; the problem was that you were dating a guy who, quote frankly, sounds like an asshole. When you find the right person, minor matters won’t turn into three-act operas. Not to mention that you had an appallingly incompetent therapist.
posted by holborne at 8:09 AM on July 22, 2018 [89 favorites]
This is, totally not exaggerating, the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard a therapist say. This person is either actively malign or so stupid that they shouldn’t even talk to other human beings, much less be a therapist.
I don’t think you were wrong to ask that question, frankly, and I think in a healthy relationship hypothetical questions are no big deal — the person can either answer or decline to answer, and it doesn’t turn into a huge drama like this one did. The problem wasn’t your question; the problem was that you were dating a guy who, quote frankly, sounds like an asshole. When you find the right person, minor matters won’t turn into three-act operas. Not to mention that you had an appallingly incompetent therapist.
posted by holborne at 8:09 AM on July 22, 2018 [89 favorites]
Best answer: 1. If you feel like you need to ask this question in a serious relationship, the relationship probably isn't that great.
2. If the "sexual aspect" of relationships pretty much trumps everything else for your ex, your ex is correct to keep his relationships casual, and in fact should have been far more upfront about this when getting into a relationship with you. Time and the gods bring all kinds of changes to sexual relationships - a small number of people stay trim, vigorous and sexually interested in each other through their entire lives with no breaks or changes, but the vast majority of people don't.
3. This guy doesn't exactly sound like a prize, and I think you're well shut of him.
4. For the future: When I was younger, I found it very helpful to visualize what a mature, loving partner would be like before really trying to get serious with anyone. You don't want to move in with someone and try to build a life with them if they're like this guy, no matter how lovable they may seem. Think about how a mature, loving partner would act in the day-to-day: they'd make good decisions about driving safety, for instance; they would be willing to accommodate reasonable requests; if they wanted you to do a certain thing and they needed to take action to make that happen, they'd remember and follow through, etc etc.
Like, on the one hand sure you seem anxious; on the other hand, you seem to have been dating someone who was totally into the "my girlfriend is on a perpetual audition for my approval" thing, and that would make you anxious if you weren't already.
When you're around men, pay attention to what the kind, thoughtful, solid ones are like - not for dating purposes, just so that you start to really recognize what being a decent grown-up looks like. Looking back, I think young women are socialized to put up with a lot of nonsense.
posted by Frowner at 8:11 AM on July 22, 2018 [73 favorites]
2. If the "sexual aspect" of relationships pretty much trumps everything else for your ex, your ex is correct to keep his relationships casual, and in fact should have been far more upfront about this when getting into a relationship with you. Time and the gods bring all kinds of changes to sexual relationships - a small number of people stay trim, vigorous and sexually interested in each other through their entire lives with no breaks or changes, but the vast majority of people don't.
3. This guy doesn't exactly sound like a prize, and I think you're well shut of him.
4. For the future: When I was younger, I found it very helpful to visualize what a mature, loving partner would be like before really trying to get serious with anyone. You don't want to move in with someone and try to build a life with them if they're like this guy, no matter how lovable they may seem. Think about how a mature, loving partner would act in the day-to-day: they'd make good decisions about driving safety, for instance; they would be willing to accommodate reasonable requests; if they wanted you to do a certain thing and they needed to take action to make that happen, they'd remember and follow through, etc etc.
Like, on the one hand sure you seem anxious; on the other hand, you seem to have been dating someone who was totally into the "my girlfriend is on a perpetual audition for my approval" thing, and that would make you anxious if you weren't already.
When you're around men, pay attention to what the kind, thoughtful, solid ones are like - not for dating purposes, just so that you start to really recognize what being a decent grown-up looks like. Looking back, I think young women are socialized to put up with a lot of nonsense.
posted by Frowner at 8:11 AM on July 22, 2018 [73 favorites]
I think you two are better off apart, and rather than dwelling on what you or he or the therapists may have done incorrectly, take a moment to consider this was your first major relationship, everybody makes mistakes and has to learn, and you can defer your concerns until you've had a few more relationships to see if you discover any patterns - - with only one relationship to consider, it is possible your entire relationship struggle will turn out to be anomalous, but at this point how would you know?
posted by davejay at 8:16 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by davejay at 8:16 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wow, you've got really fucking awful therapists.
Yes, you were instigating conflict, because what's the alternative? Living in denial and sweeping everything under the proverbial rug? Talking about issues of disagreement is what healthy couples do, except healthy couples are able to resolve their conflicts as adults.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:31 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
Yes, you were instigating conflict, because what's the alternative? Living in denial and sweeping everything under the proverbial rug? Talking about issues of disagreement is what healthy couples do, except healthy couples are able to resolve their conflicts as adults.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:31 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
The idea that in a relationship, you’re in a contract to stay the same is batshit crazy. Please fire this therapist if you haven’t already.
Your ex’s answer to your question would be unacceptable to me. Concern about health is often used as a smokescreen by people who don’t want to admit to an aesthetic judgment. When Paris Hilton eats a greasy burger with a white flour bun on a TV ad, none of the comments are about concern for her health. Only fat people are subjected to those comments. And even though he says it’s acceptable if it’s not your fault. I don't buy it. This is the guy who leaves his aging wife for a younger model.
It seems like the question underneath your question is, Do you love me unconditionally? Now you know the answer. I know it’s hard, but better to know now than twenty years from now. A friend of a friend was diagnosed with muscular dystrophy. His wife immediately left him. It turned out to be a misdiagnosis, but he was really glad it happened because he found out about his wife.
posted by FencingGal at 8:33 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
Your ex’s answer to your question would be unacceptable to me. Concern about health is often used as a smokescreen by people who don’t want to admit to an aesthetic judgment. When Paris Hilton eats a greasy burger with a white flour bun on a TV ad, none of the comments are about concern for her health. Only fat people are subjected to those comments. And even though he says it’s acceptable if it’s not your fault. I don't buy it. This is the guy who leaves his aging wife for a younger model.
It seems like the question underneath your question is, Do you love me unconditionally? Now you know the answer. I know it’s hard, but better to know now than twenty years from now. A friend of a friend was diagnosed with muscular dystrophy. His wife immediately left him. It turned out to be a misdiagnosis, but he was really glad it happened because he found out about his wife.
posted by FencingGal at 8:33 AM on July 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
Response by poster: We've been broken up for 2 months so far. I started feeling relief a week after we broke up, and yes my anxiety has been reduced since then. Occasionally I'd think of him and the anxiety would come back though, but I've been thinking of him less and less. I bought over ten books on topics I thought I needed help on and have been doing a ton of self-work. Ironically I had initially started self-work in the hopes of improving myself enough so he'd take me back, but in doing the self-work I realized that maybe I didn't want him back after all.
Yes, I told him I was asking if he loved me unconditionally, but he persuaded me that unconditional love doesn't exist.
Hearing the responses from this community helps solidify my gut feelings - the feelings that I ended up doubting and feeling ashamed of after he and the therapists somehow convienced me I was incorrect. (Interestingly I've been making a lot more progress than I have with any of the therapists I've been going to the past two years) The therapist that you're referring to was actually one of the better ones. I've had worst experiences with the other ones, which honestly put me off therapy for awhile. The individual therapist and couples therapist did talk to each other, so maybe that's why they had the same thought on us. I'ven doing ACT on my own, and they were focusing on CBT, so maybe I'll eventually try therapy again. I kind of feel like I want all my time and money back though! I paid out of pocket for most of them and paid a little more than I was comfortable with for some of them because pricer was supposedly better (I had a terrible time with one when I tried going on insurance and they submitted two offical diagnosises that I disagreed on only after the second session without telling me because insurance required a diagnosis). I wished I had asked this community back then, but I had thought the therapists were enough, and I felt weird writing about him while we were still together. I'm glad I'm asking now so that I know what I should work on and look for in the future!
posted by LovingMyself at 8:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yes, I told him I was asking if he loved me unconditionally, but he persuaded me that unconditional love doesn't exist.
Hearing the responses from this community helps solidify my gut feelings - the feelings that I ended up doubting and feeling ashamed of after he and the therapists somehow convienced me I was incorrect. (Interestingly I've been making a lot more progress than I have with any of the therapists I've been going to the past two years) The therapist that you're referring to was actually one of the better ones. I've had worst experiences with the other ones, which honestly put me off therapy for awhile. The individual therapist and couples therapist did talk to each other, so maybe that's why they had the same thought on us. I'ven doing ACT on my own, and they were focusing on CBT, so maybe I'll eventually try therapy again. I kind of feel like I want all my time and money back though! I paid out of pocket for most of them and paid a little more than I was comfortable with for some of them because pricer was supposedly better (I had a terrible time with one when I tried going on insurance and they submitted two offical diagnosises that I disagreed on only after the second session without telling me because insurance required a diagnosis). I wished I had asked this community back then, but I had thought the therapists were enough, and I felt weird writing about him while we were still together. I'm glad I'm asking now so that I know what I should work on and look for in the future!
posted by LovingMyself at 8:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
Hypothetical questions are really tough. Because hey, he can give you an answer but that does not necessarily predict what he'll do when confronted with the situation, particularly if it is years in the future. I agree, he doesn't sound like a good match, but I would avoid asking questions like this in the future no matter how tempting. Some partners are not good at gracefully avoiding no-win questions like "Have you stopped beating your wife?". Some of their answers will help you better understand them, some will just demonstrate that they don't know how to answer no-win questions.
Also, be gentle with yourself (and him, if you're able). First serious relationship for both of you, you were both learning on (and with) each other. Learn from this experience and take it to your next relationship.Best wishes!
posted by arnicae at 8:41 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, be gentle with yourself (and him, if you're able). First serious relationship for both of you, you were both learning on (and with) each other. Learn from this experience and take it to your next relationship.Best wishes!
posted by arnicae at 8:41 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
Wanting to get to this
>Are there healthier ways to find out if someone will stick around for the long haul if things get tough, or is that just something that should never be taken for granted?
People grow and change, sometimes in different directions, and really anything could happen, people die, divorce rates are high... but I think it’s possible to find someone who a) wants a committed, monogamous, long-term relationship and b) has the relationship and communication skills to preserve the bond through the storms life brings.
People who want this will usually be able to say so when they’re asked about what they want in a relationship. (Younger men, ie under 35, may or may not have this clarity. Or they may feel ambivalent about commitment. I’m not advising looking for older men, just noting that for a while it might be tougher to find someone who’s really up for commitment - and not say pretending to because he feels pressured because his buds have all done it and his partner wants him to. But I’m sure they exist.) People who want to settle down talk about it, and they look and act like it, you don’t feel like they’re hesitating or looking over their shoulder. Other pieces of their lives are likely to be in place (job, home - and if they’re not, stay away even if they do want a relationship, because that’s trouble). They are *ready* and you don’t have to dig to find that out.
For someone who can handle gaining weight, sickness etc. - they’re more mature generally and understanding about women’s bodies in lots of ways. I would not expect maturity in someone fixated on objectified ideals around women. I’d look for someone empathetic and giving. If they’re good to their family and friends (loyal, generous, helpful), odds are higher they’ll be good to you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:06 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
>Are there healthier ways to find out if someone will stick around for the long haul if things get tough, or is that just something that should never be taken for granted?
People grow and change, sometimes in different directions, and really anything could happen, people die, divorce rates are high... but I think it’s possible to find someone who a) wants a committed, monogamous, long-term relationship and b) has the relationship and communication skills to preserve the bond through the storms life brings.
People who want this will usually be able to say so when they’re asked about what they want in a relationship. (Younger men, ie under 35, may or may not have this clarity. Or they may feel ambivalent about commitment. I’m not advising looking for older men, just noting that for a while it might be tougher to find someone who’s really up for commitment - and not say pretending to because he feels pressured because his buds have all done it and his partner wants him to. But I’m sure they exist.) People who want to settle down talk about it, and they look and act like it, you don’t feel like they’re hesitating or looking over their shoulder. Other pieces of their lives are likely to be in place (job, home - and if they’re not, stay away even if they do want a relationship, because that’s trouble). They are *ready* and you don’t have to dig to find that out.
For someone who can handle gaining weight, sickness etc. - they’re more mature generally and understanding about women’s bodies in lots of ways. I would not expect maturity in someone fixated on objectified ideals around women. I’d look for someone empathetic and giving. If they’re good to their family and friends (loyal, generous, helpful), odds are higher they’ll be good to you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:06 AM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ironically I had initially started self-work in the hopes of improving myself enough so he'd take me back, but in doing the self-work I realized that maybe I didn't want him back after all.
Congratulations on that huge step! That kind of growth and insight does not come easily, I hope you are proud of your efforts, and are giving yourself a break.
The next step is just as important: identifying his red flags -- the things about him that pulled you in but were unhealthy for you -- and learning to recognize them in others before you get pulled in again.
posted by headnsouth at 9:14 AM on July 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
Congratulations on that huge step! That kind of growth and insight does not come easily, I hope you are proud of your efforts, and are giving yourself a break.
The next step is just as important: identifying his red flags -- the things about him that pulled you in but were unhealthy for you -- and learning to recognize them in others before you get pulled in again.
posted by headnsouth at 9:14 AM on July 22, 2018 [9 favorites]
Hi. It sounds like you are struggling to understand this relationship. I have thoughts and questions for you...
- Are you still on hormonal birth control?
- Are you on any other kind of medication?
- Are you aware that at only 2 months post break up it's normal to feel conflicted?
- Are you aware no one has to be a "bad guy" in a break up?
- Are you aware you are not to blame for this relationship ending?
Lastly
- Do you have a plan to take steps to help you go easier on yourself?
I'm sure you are grieving, and that's a part of this, but man are you being hard on yourself. I call this "grinding," like your brain is just grinding away on all the things that happened in this relationship.
OH DIP, YOU ALREADY STATED YOU HAVE A THYROID ISSUE...
Hey. I think you need an exercise practice, a medical check up, and some diet and supplement changes. If you are on anything like hormonal bc, maybe you can stop for a while? If you are taking thyroid meds, work with your doctor on the type of medicine and dose.
Even though you are grieving, something is "off" in the way you are processing. It reminds me of how I felt when I was having medical issues around meds and hormones. Regular exercise is 100% proven to help with this, and check in with your doctor about your thyroid condition and other medical factors. You don't have to accept the way you feel right now as normal. You can start by just getting outside right now and taking a walk.
Also, it sounds like that relationship was emotionally devastating, it seems like a super bad fit and staying in it was harmful to your wellbeing. Work with a therapist on having boundaries and the confidence to walk away much sooner if your needs are not met. Your needs were not met. It was on you to walk away sooner, you will benefit from acquiring that relationship skill. I hope you find the right therapist to help you develop this skill.
I know it's tempting to go over and over this relationship, but the answers you are seeking aren't in the past. Work on your present, go outside for a walk to clear your head, then make a plan to take care of yourself.
posted by jbenben at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
- Are you still on hormonal birth control?
- Are you on any other kind of medication?
- Are you aware that at only 2 months post break up it's normal to feel conflicted?
- Are you aware no one has to be a "bad guy" in a break up?
- Are you aware you are not to blame for this relationship ending?
Lastly
- Do you have a plan to take steps to help you go easier on yourself?
I'm sure you are grieving, and that's a part of this, but man are you being hard on yourself. I call this "grinding," like your brain is just grinding away on all the things that happened in this relationship.
OH DIP, YOU ALREADY STATED YOU HAVE A THYROID ISSUE...
Hey. I think you need an exercise practice, a medical check up, and some diet and supplement changes. If you are on anything like hormonal bc, maybe you can stop for a while? If you are taking thyroid meds, work with your doctor on the type of medicine and dose.
Even though you are grieving, something is "off" in the way you are processing. It reminds me of how I felt when I was having medical issues around meds and hormones. Regular exercise is 100% proven to help with this, and check in with your doctor about your thyroid condition and other medical factors. You don't have to accept the way you feel right now as normal. You can start by just getting outside right now and taking a walk.
Also, it sounds like that relationship was emotionally devastating, it seems like a super bad fit and staying in it was harmful to your wellbeing. Work with a therapist on having boundaries and the confidence to walk away much sooner if your needs are not met. Your needs were not met. It was on you to walk away sooner, you will benefit from acquiring that relationship skill. I hope you find the right therapist to help you develop this skill.
I know it's tempting to go over and over this relationship, but the answers you are seeking aren't in the past. Work on your present, go outside for a walk to clear your head, then make a plan to take care of yourself.
posted by jbenben at 9:19 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
This guy did you a favor by letting you know what a jerk he is. When you consider marrying someone, make sure it's someone who takes the whole "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" part seriously.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Daily Alice at 10:27 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
The only way I know how to be fine with myself and to stop double and triple guessing every little thing is to engage in regular exercise.
For me it's yoga class. You do your thing. You did everything right. Do this part right, too.
posted by jbenben at 10:57 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
For me it's yoga class. You do your thing. You did everything right. Do this part right, too.
posted by jbenben at 10:57 AM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Best answer: there's unconditional love, like I'll still love you if you murder my best friend, which is not realistic and to many people not desirable either, and there's regular love that may be casually called unconditional, like I'll still love you if you grow a beard or shave your head or gain or lose weight over the course of years. any normal person is capable of this if they are capable of love, and the idea that there are different love 'styles' where this is not true and where appearance is paramount is a transparent piece of manipulation intended to free its practitioners from the momentary social difficulty of admitting they don't love the person they are with.
because when you fall in love with someone you're attracted to, their appearance never stops being important: more important as time goes on, because it ascends to a higher level and becomes symbolically important. you see a stop sign, you don't worry about what exact shade of red it is and whether the letters are a cold or a warm white. you don't keep going because you prefer trapezoids to hexagons. you know what it means, and you stop. what you see is not a design project to be assessed dispassionately, but a symbol communicating meaning instantly to your brain and body.
and when you see the face of the person you love and have committed yourself to, it's equally a sign and symbol. this is her, is what their appearance says, just in the way that what the stop sign says is STOP. you care about what someone looks like when you're looking to have your eye caught, and sometimes that leads to falling in love. but after that, you keep caring because they look like themselves and you want to see them. the body is not the self, but the self is the meaning read in the sign of the body. and the more interested someone is in dressing you up to his specifications and keeping you in condition like a racehorse, the less interested he is in really looking at you.
sorry to be so sentimental about it all but your ex was a creep.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:15 AM on July 22, 2018 [107 favorites]
because when you fall in love with someone you're attracted to, their appearance never stops being important: more important as time goes on, because it ascends to a higher level and becomes symbolically important. you see a stop sign, you don't worry about what exact shade of red it is and whether the letters are a cold or a warm white. you don't keep going because you prefer trapezoids to hexagons. you know what it means, and you stop. what you see is not a design project to be assessed dispassionately, but a symbol communicating meaning instantly to your brain and body.
and when you see the face of the person you love and have committed yourself to, it's equally a sign and symbol. this is her, is what their appearance says, just in the way that what the stop sign says is STOP. you care about what someone looks like when you're looking to have your eye caught, and sometimes that leads to falling in love. but after that, you keep caring because they look like themselves and you want to see them. the body is not the self, but the self is the meaning read in the sign of the body. and the more interested someone is in dressing you up to his specifications and keeping you in condition like a racehorse, the less interested he is in really looking at you.
sorry to be so sentimental about it all but your ex was a creep.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:15 AM on July 22, 2018 [107 favorites]
The therapist who said that crap about "contracts" - is she still your therapist? Because I think she's giving you really, really bad advice and I think she's actually a poor therapist. If that contract shit was true, no person in any relationship ever could grow in any way. That's not a good thing. People don't remain static their whole lives. I am a different person than I was 25 years ago when I married my husband, and so is he. Given your therapist's logic, we have broken our marriage contract. That is bullshit. We grew and changed together, and that's a good thing.
Please find a new therapist. This one isn't good at her job and may actually be damaging you.
posted by cooker girl at 11:16 AM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Please find a new therapist. This one isn't good at her job and may actually be damaging you.
posted by cooker girl at 11:16 AM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
Any guy who says you aren't making an effort because you didn't wear lingerie he didn't buy you and is afraid of being "trapped" by pregnancy is a bad long term partner. Even before you asked the question you knew the answer - you were hoping you were wrong - but you knew. This guy is a toolbox of issues and you are lucky to be free of him.
For better and for worse is not just shit people say, real commitment and love encompasses those things, which includes waxing and waning sex drives, weight gain, illness, bad days, etc.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:19 AM on July 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
For better and for worse is not just shit people say, real commitment and love encompasses those things, which includes waxing and waning sex drives, weight gain, illness, bad days, etc.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:19 AM on July 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
I'm so glad you are not with this guy any more. Your instincts are right: he is not a good partner and you don't want to win him back. Also, your therapists are so crappy I don't blame you for wanting your money back! I hope you can find a different (good) therapist who is not incompetent or malicious like those two fools. Yeesh.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:40 AM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Folks have covered this pretty well already, but as far as the 'contract to remain the same'... people don't remain the same, not from one day to the next, nor would it be a good sign if they did. This is like having a doctor tell you that in order for you to stay healthy your blood should remain in one place and not constantly be moving around your body--there's nothing to conclude from it except that you need a new doctor. The only other reason to waste valuable storage space in your head on such an idea is that you can use it to remind yourself that therapists can be just as clueless as anybody else.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:32 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
Was his response acceptable
Well, yes it was. It seems like a question it is good to know the answer to, and to the extent that he doesn't lie to you it's a perfectly acceptable answer. It certainly seems like a better and more honest response than lying about his true feelings. You asked a question and he answered the question asked, and since it was so blunt one can assume it was answered truthfully, so certainly that answer should be accepted as indicating his true feelings on the matter.
It's also perfectly acceptable for you to break up with him. You don't have to stay with someone just because they managed to answer a question in an acceptable manner!
Neither of these should be met with any sort of implication that the person hearing it refuses to accept what they are hearing at face value.
posted by yohko at 1:34 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, yes it was. It seems like a question it is good to know the answer to, and to the extent that he doesn't lie to you it's a perfectly acceptable answer. It certainly seems like a better and more honest response than lying about his true feelings. You asked a question and he answered the question asked, and since it was so blunt one can assume it was answered truthfully, so certainly that answer should be accepted as indicating his true feelings on the matter.
It's also perfectly acceptable for you to break up with him. You don't have to stay with someone just because they managed to answer a question in an acceptable manner!
Neither of these should be met with any sort of implication that the person hearing it refuses to accept what they are hearing at face value.
posted by yohko at 1:34 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
First off: this guy is a jerk and you are good to be rid of him. Congrats. I am an anxious person in a relationship with a not-so-anxious person so this is intended to be constructive and also "I feel you"
I brought up the topic again over the course of a week of trying to push what I needed to hear from him to feel secure. Note I had to prompt him before he would agree in the affirmative.
This is what me and my partner would call "A set up." You are having a conversation with him because you are trying to get at one particular outcome. You are asking a question where there is only one possible "right" answer. Now, there are certain contexts where one might do this and the "wrong" answer would mean the end of the relationship, but there should be precious few of them. I get why an anxious person would do this. I have done this. However as I've worked on my anxiety and been in relationships with people who were more grown-up, I do it less.
It's also, and again I mean this constructively, sort of a bad question because no one can predict the future. You might honestly and aspirationally be like "I will endeavor to love you in whatever form your body takes and I will do the work to try to be that sort of person for you" However, saying "Yes, I will love you forever no matter what happens!!!" might sound nice for the anxious mind to hear (and anxious people often get suckered by smooth talkers because good-sounding lies are more calming than complicated truths) but people who would say that are, to my mind, optimally being hopeful and maybe a little naive or out and out just trying to say what you want to hear.
Which isn't to say that there's not such a thing as a lifetime of love, but what is to say that in most cases, this involves not just a loving/sexy/hot feeling you have at first (brain chemicals can account for a lot of that) but also an "I am going to work to be a better person for you, and I hope you will do the same for me" sort of efforts. And even in a shorter term relationship, you should be able to see someone doing that work, being willing to compromise, trying to meet you where you are and not just trying to make you into a different person or compare you to some cut-out idea they have about an ideal partner.
And look, I have strong preferences about things and this guy I am dating now doesn't hit every bullet on what I thought was on my TRUE LOVE MUST BE THIS TALL TO RIDE THIS RIDE list. But, the thing that keeps me just nuts over him--ten years now--is how he responds to me, anxious me, worried me, sometimes sleepy me or "I put on some weight and feel bad" me in such a loving compassionate way (most of the time, he's not a saint and I am not either) and how we're able to talk about our differences and genuinely care about how the other is feeling, that's the thing that love is to me.
Unconditional love is for pets. Real love is for grown-ups. Your therapist gave you bad advice and that guy was a jerk. You sound like you're trying, keep going, it will get better.
posted by jessamyn at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [26 favorites]
I brought up the topic again over the course of a week of trying to push what I needed to hear from him to feel secure. Note I had to prompt him before he would agree in the affirmative.
This is what me and my partner would call "A set up." You are having a conversation with him because you are trying to get at one particular outcome. You are asking a question where there is only one possible "right" answer. Now, there are certain contexts where one might do this and the "wrong" answer would mean the end of the relationship, but there should be precious few of them. I get why an anxious person would do this. I have done this. However as I've worked on my anxiety and been in relationships with people who were more grown-up, I do it less.
It's also, and again I mean this constructively, sort of a bad question because no one can predict the future. You might honestly and aspirationally be like "I will endeavor to love you in whatever form your body takes and I will do the work to try to be that sort of person for you" However, saying "Yes, I will love you forever no matter what happens!!!" might sound nice for the anxious mind to hear (and anxious people often get suckered by smooth talkers because good-sounding lies are more calming than complicated truths) but people who would say that are, to my mind, optimally being hopeful and maybe a little naive or out and out just trying to say what you want to hear.
Which isn't to say that there's not such a thing as a lifetime of love, but what is to say that in most cases, this involves not just a loving/sexy/hot feeling you have at first (brain chemicals can account for a lot of that) but also an "I am going to work to be a better person for you, and I hope you will do the same for me" sort of efforts. And even in a shorter term relationship, you should be able to see someone doing that work, being willing to compromise, trying to meet you where you are and not just trying to make you into a different person or compare you to some cut-out idea they have about an ideal partner.
And look, I have strong preferences about things and this guy I am dating now doesn't hit every bullet on what I thought was on my TRUE LOVE MUST BE THIS TALL TO RIDE THIS RIDE list. But, the thing that keeps me just nuts over him--ten years now--is how he responds to me, anxious me, worried me, sometimes sleepy me or "I put on some weight and feel bad" me in such a loving compassionate way (most of the time, he's not a saint and I am not either) and how we're able to talk about our differences and genuinely care about how the other is feeling, that's the thing that love is to me.
Unconditional love is for pets. Real love is for grown-ups. Your therapist gave you bad advice and that guy was a jerk. You sound like you're trying, keep going, it will get better.
posted by jessamyn at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [26 favorites]
A few days later, I stopped bringing it up, accepting his answers and the two therapists' - chalking it up to my anxious insecurities and that we simply had different values.
Wait, what? Not sure what this idea of "accepting" means to you, but it seems like by "accepting" his answer you... Decided not to break up with him??? Because you had different values?
I think you might have fallen into the trap of believing someone has to be in the wrong to break up. This in not the case.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions about things that are relationship deal breakers for you, but you need to break the deal if you find one!
posted by yohko at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wait, what? Not sure what this idea of "accepting" means to you, but it seems like by "accepting" his answer you... Decided not to break up with him??? Because you had different values?
I think you might have fallen into the trap of believing someone has to be in the wrong to break up. This in not the case.
There is nothing wrong with asking questions about things that are relationship deal breakers for you, but you need to break the deal if you find one!
posted by yohko at 1:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
If there is a contract in a relationship, I believe it is in some ways the exact opposite of 'not changing'. A relationship should support both partners in being the best person they can be, allowing them to grow. Ideally you grow together, sometimes you grow apart, but in a good relationship you should come out better than you went in (barring external life circumstances, obviously). I married my husband because I can be the best version of myself with him. I try make sure I support him the same way.
That guy? He was making you feel bad. Dragging you down. Your question was a bit of a gotcha, a trap, but would you have asked it if you didn't feel he had one foot out the door? Also, man, therapists can be terrible just like plumbers or hairdressers. Trust your instincts on that one.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:24 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
That guy? He was making you feel bad. Dragging you down. Your question was a bit of a gotcha, a trap, but would you have asked it if you didn't feel he had one foot out the door? Also, man, therapists can be terrible just like plumbers or hairdressers. Trust your instincts on that one.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:24 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh I forgot to say - I asked my partner the same question once. I can't remember his exact response, but it was something along the lines of 'I'd still love you. I don't know if I'd still be sexually attracted to you if it was a lot of weight, but I think I would because I love you'. It's an OK question to ask if you're ok with an honest answer (but also ok to dump the guy if his honest answer sucks. I like "what would you do if you won the lottery" discussions which are obviously super hypothetical, but when a previous dude was pretty clear he would never split the money with me even if we were married... nah. Sometimes these things just confirm nagging doubts about their character, the question is just the visible tip of the iceberg.)
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:34 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:34 PM on July 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
I signed in just to favorite queenofbithynia. She speaks the truth.
posted by WinterSolstice at 3:21 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by WinterSolstice at 3:21 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
She explained to me that if someone is in a relationship, they are in a "contract" with the other person to remain the same, and if one of them changes, the other person has the right to leave anytime
I just "what the fuck"ed out loud reading this part. It might be the actual worst advice I've EVER heard, and coming from a therapist???
posted by augustimagination at 4:04 PM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
I just "what the fuck"ed out loud reading this part. It might be the actual worst advice I've EVER heard, and coming from a therapist???
posted by augustimagination at 4:04 PM on July 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm a therapist. That feedback about contracts is so bogus and terrible for multiple reasons. Please do not believe that. If anything, a quality long-term relationship provides a contract that says "I plan to be here even if there are some changes."
posted by crunchy potato at 4:17 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by crunchy potato at 4:17 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Holy shit, queenofbithynia. That was magnificent.
posted by HotToddy at 4:33 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by HotToddy at 4:33 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you all. Looking back now, I was disillusioned. Somehow he had also convinced me that I had been unreasonable to ask for a timeline of when we could move in together or stop trying at least - especially because it put more pressure on him (while I was left on the dark just waiting). I had thought he was amazing- and the only issue was he wouldn't commit (I now know that is a huge issue, thank you all). He seemed loving, and said he wanted to move in and get married someday - except he understandably didn't want to commit if he wasn't sure yet. It's funny, the main reason he didn't want to commit was that I kept accusing him of things like "I don't feel like you care about my feelings" after he said something insensitive, and he'd get offended, and I'd feel bad and apologize for making such an accusation (but now thanks to you all, maybe what he said had actually been insensitive). He said these were things we needed to fix before moving forward, so I stayed longer than I should have because I didn't want to lose a good thing. I'm in my late twenties and haven't found a relationship until now (due to shyness), so I guess I thought he was amazing for me and clung on. I've doubted myself because the professional therapists and how my ex sounded so logical, but seeing 25+ people all say the same thing really helps, and I think I can be more sure of myself now, with more iner work to not doubt myself as much.
Regarding the therapist - I'm no longer seeing her. I might go to another one in the future, but based on my negative experiences with all the therapists I've talked to and all money I spent, I've lost faith in therapy. There were the definite bad ones, and then the one I thought was good until you all kindly pointed out she was terrible (thank you by the way. There were other things that made me doubt her, so you're all probably right). I considered shopping around more, but don't like paying around $130 for 50 minutes, and then feeling like I wasted hundreds of dollars after the first few sessions if we aren't making progress and falling for sunk-cost fallacy (plus the fact that my good therapist radar is broken, how I'm easily persuaded by them, and that self-help books for the past two months have helped me way more than the past two years of various therapists).
posted by LovingMyself at 4:35 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
Regarding the therapist - I'm no longer seeing her. I might go to another one in the future, but based on my negative experiences with all the therapists I've talked to and all money I spent, I've lost faith in therapy. There were the definite bad ones, and then the one I thought was good until you all kindly pointed out she was terrible (thank you by the way. There were other things that made me doubt her, so you're all probably right). I considered shopping around more, but don't like paying around $130 for 50 minutes, and then feeling like I wasted hundreds of dollars after the first few sessions if we aren't making progress and falling for sunk-cost fallacy (plus the fact that my good therapist radar is broken, how I'm easily persuaded by them, and that self-help books for the past two months have helped me way more than the past two years of various therapists).
posted by LovingMyself at 4:35 PM on July 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
I agree that the "relationships are a contract" thing is absolutely ludicrous. I also think he sounds like a terrible partner who is not ready for an adult relationship, and you are better off without him.
However, I think you also need to reflect on this and learn some lessons so that you don't go through this again. Reflect on why you entered this relationship with someone who was not supportive or emotionally available, and why you stayed in it when it was obviously not right quite early on. (I'm saying this as someone who stayed in a relationship 4 years after I knew we should break up, so no judgement.) Also, while I'm sure you were asking the 'would you stay with me if...' question because you were feeling insecure, you still should really have not asked it. It is a pretty silly question. The question you should have been asking is "why am I continuing in a relationship with this person when I don't feel secure or loved by them" or "why am I not believing this person when they are quite obviously telling me who they are".
I was you, and after a lot of therapy and thinking I managed to learn to choose healthier relationships. I think this is something everyone needs to learn to do.
posted by thereader at 4:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
However, I think you also need to reflect on this and learn some lessons so that you don't go through this again. Reflect on why you entered this relationship with someone who was not supportive or emotionally available, and why you stayed in it when it was obviously not right quite early on. (I'm saying this as someone who stayed in a relationship 4 years after I knew we should break up, so no judgement.) Also, while I'm sure you were asking the 'would you stay with me if...' question because you were feeling insecure, you still should really have not asked it. It is a pretty silly question. The question you should have been asking is "why am I continuing in a relationship with this person when I don't feel secure or loved by them" or "why am I not believing this person when they are quite obviously telling me who they are".
I was you, and after a lot of therapy and thinking I managed to learn to choose healthier relationships. I think this is something everyone needs to learn to do.
posted by thereader at 4:42 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, this : "Any guy who says you aren't making an effort because you didn't wear lingerie he didn't buy you and is afraid of being "trapped" by pregnancy is a bad long term partner". These are both real red flags. What about the lingerie (or anything else) that you want to wear? That you feel comfortable in? That makes you feel sexy?
And the trapped by pregnancy thing speaks volumes about how he feels about women and relationships with women!
posted by thereader at 4:47 PM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
And the trapped by pregnancy thing speaks volumes about how he feels about women and relationships with women!
posted by thereader at 4:47 PM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
There's a lot going on here. But I'm about to say some things that are opposite of what others are saying. Take it with a grain of salt but hear me out because I believe what I'm about to say is unfortunately mostly true but no one wants to admit it.
Guys are largely attracted to women based on physical appearance. It sucks but I think it's true. Asking a guy if he'll love you if you get fat is really an unfair question. That said no one stays young and beautiful forever. Ideally you grow old together and accept each other for what you are.
But making an effort is key. If you're overweight because of illness well then it's out of your controll. But if you are just eating poorly and not exercising you are essentially saying you don't care how your partner views you. And maybe you don't. But guess what guys care....they do.
As far as birth control. I hate the pill. I'll take condems over the pill any day because I believe it kills a women's libido. When used correctly and consistently condoms are pretty good birth control.
It sounds like at the end of the day your ex was essentially not happy with your sex life. Just saying that's what it sounds like to me. Guys in their 20's want sex. They do. Most could do it every day at that age.
Just giving honest non sugar coated answers.
posted by ljs30 at 6:26 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Guys are largely attracted to women based on physical appearance. It sucks but I think it's true. Asking a guy if he'll love you if you get fat is really an unfair question. That said no one stays young and beautiful forever. Ideally you grow old together and accept each other for what you are.
But making an effort is key. If you're overweight because of illness well then it's out of your controll. But if you are just eating poorly and not exercising you are essentially saying you don't care how your partner views you. And maybe you don't. But guess what guys care....they do.
As far as birth control. I hate the pill. I'll take condems over the pill any day because I believe it kills a women's libido. When used correctly and consistently condoms are pretty good birth control.
It sounds like at the end of the day your ex was essentially not happy with your sex life. Just saying that's what it sounds like to me. Guys in their 20's want sex. They do. Most could do it every day at that age.
Just giving honest non sugar coated answers.
posted by ljs30 at 6:26 PM on July 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry, ljs30, but you're absolutely wrong. It's not at all an unfair question, and the mere fact that most guys in their 29s are sex-crazed by no means implies that the OP should or must settle for that.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:54 PM on July 22, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 6:54 PM on July 22, 2018 [21 favorites]
Gender essentialism is really not a way to view this situation. Humans being interested in sex and sexual presentation doesn't mean a partner can dictate and control how sex and sexual presentation exists in their relationships in a static, ignorant manner.
Your ex sounds like he saw love as a performance art that needs (your) gendered performance. You take the drugs, you buy the lingerie, you do the seduction, and you never let life's events imprint themselves onto your body, which seemingly should remain youthfully intact and available on terms he wishes. It's easy for women in particular to be shepherded into compliance with this attitude because, well, Patriarchy - both the ushering towards objectification, and the doubtful fretting about Romance, ushering us towards being valued for ourselves, our way of being in the world in varied capacities. And it's easy for disruptions and insecurities to develop if this objectifying way of relating becomes openly stated against the romantic desires your questioning was probing. 'Do you love me, for me?' Your gut already told you what you knew was the answer from your ex, but you asked anyway, external verification. Sounds like you can trust your gut.
You are at an age now where women often come into their own sexually, communally and emotionally. This is the point at which the probing your (future) partners about the parameters of his attachment to you will hopefully give way to more self-regarding, self-aware desires. Your therapist permitted a very patriarchal way of dealing with your questions: your ex/he is to be permitted his allegedly common man baby syndrome, and you are to suck up the ideology because that's the deal.
In your reflections on your self growth, take time to ask yourself what you want in a partner. eg: I want to be love someone safely, warmly, openly, wholly, responsively. To do that means these set up questions will be a thing of the past because when your gut tells you that the other person's love is situationally inadequate, you'll move on.
posted by honey-barbara at 7:38 PM on July 22, 2018 [18 favorites]
Your ex sounds like he saw love as a performance art that needs (your) gendered performance. You take the drugs, you buy the lingerie, you do the seduction, and you never let life's events imprint themselves onto your body, which seemingly should remain youthfully intact and available on terms he wishes. It's easy for women in particular to be shepherded into compliance with this attitude because, well, Patriarchy - both the ushering towards objectification, and the doubtful fretting about Romance, ushering us towards being valued for ourselves, our way of being in the world in varied capacities. And it's easy for disruptions and insecurities to develop if this objectifying way of relating becomes openly stated against the romantic desires your questioning was probing. 'Do you love me, for me?' Your gut already told you what you knew was the answer from your ex, but you asked anyway, external verification. Sounds like you can trust your gut.
You are at an age now where women often come into their own sexually, communally and emotionally. This is the point at which the probing your (future) partners about the parameters of his attachment to you will hopefully give way to more self-regarding, self-aware desires. Your therapist permitted a very patriarchal way of dealing with your questions: your ex/he is to be permitted his allegedly common man baby syndrome, and you are to suck up the ideology because that's the deal.
In your reflections on your self growth, take time to ask yourself what you want in a partner. eg: I want to be love someone safely, warmly, openly, wholly, responsively. To do that means these set up questions will be a thing of the past because when your gut tells you that the other person's love is situationally inadequate, you'll move on.
posted by honey-barbara at 7:38 PM on July 22, 2018 [18 favorites]
The thing about what your therapist said is that I'd call it only half wrong, but it's the wrong half to leave wrong without substantial clarification. This is the thing about relationships with people as well as relationships with therapists. If they're a bad fit, you don't have to stay. If you're a bad fit, they don't have to stay. The thing that needs clarifying in a huge way is that this doesn't mean relationships are terrible or that you should never be in a relationship--it's that you need to set yourself up so that you *can* change as a person and that if you change and they aren't okay with that? It should not destroy you as a person if that relationship doesn't last forever. You are a whole person, all by yourself.
But then you take all of that and if you apply it to a particularly high-maintenance lifestyle and standard of your appearance that is so fragile that any of a dozen really common, predictable things could cause this kind of "bad fit" in the course of just a couple years? The person who has those standards needs to communicate up front what their expectations are and what makes them so remarkable that you should put up with that kind of ridiculous expectation. And even then, if you value long-term stability, it's a good idea to walk. So yeah, you can't ever make guarantees that your relationship will never fail because you've changed in ways that are incompatible with the other party, but this particular case is one where it's like saying "oh, I could only be attracted you if you didn't have any scars" and expecting you to walk around for the rest of your life in an anxious bubble to prevent getting so much as a scratch.
The first kind of change is stuff like figuring out later that one of you has changed their mind about having kids (in either direction) or about major career decisions or religious beliefs or whatever, where it's always possible but it's not necessarily probable. This isn't just incompatibility of values; this is about having relationship expectations that can actually survive the existence of such things as time and biology.
posted by Sequence at 10:04 PM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
But then you take all of that and if you apply it to a particularly high-maintenance lifestyle and standard of your appearance that is so fragile that any of a dozen really common, predictable things could cause this kind of "bad fit" in the course of just a couple years? The person who has those standards needs to communicate up front what their expectations are and what makes them so remarkable that you should put up with that kind of ridiculous expectation. And even then, if you value long-term stability, it's a good idea to walk. So yeah, you can't ever make guarantees that your relationship will never fail because you've changed in ways that are incompatible with the other party, but this particular case is one where it's like saying "oh, I could only be attracted you if you didn't have any scars" and expecting you to walk around for the rest of your life in an anxious bubble to prevent getting so much as a scratch.
The first kind of change is stuff like figuring out later that one of you has changed their mind about having kids (in either direction) or about major career decisions or religious beliefs or whatever, where it's always possible but it's not necessarily probable. This isn't just incompatibility of values; this is about having relationship expectations that can actually survive the existence of such things as time and biology.
posted by Sequence at 10:04 PM on July 22, 2018 [4 favorites]
In both of your questions you dismiss your own feelings by blaming them or their intensity on your hormones / birth control.
Please stop doing that.
Your feelings and needs are valid no matter where in your hormonal cycle you are or what pill you're taking.
Lady-hormones don't create unreasonable concerns out of thin air. What they do is turn up the volume on your existing concerns so it's harder to ignore them and pretend Everything's Fine Yes I Actually Enjoy Being Disrespected. No you don't, and your estrogen surges will helpfully remind you. Please listen to them.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:14 PM on July 22, 2018 [22 favorites]
Please stop doing that.
Your feelings and needs are valid no matter where in your hormonal cycle you are or what pill you're taking.
Lady-hormones don't create unreasonable concerns out of thin air. What they do is turn up the volume on your existing concerns so it's harder to ignore them and pretend Everything's Fine Yes I Actually Enjoy Being Disrespected. No you don't, and your estrogen surges will helpfully remind you. Please listen to them.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:14 PM on July 22, 2018 [22 favorites]
Response by poster: In both of your questions you dismiss your own feelings by blaming them or their intensity on your hormones / birth control.
Please stop doing that.
Your feelings and needs are valid no matter where in your hormonal cycle you are or what pill you're taking.
-------------
I understand that my feelings are valid no matter my hormones - thank you for pointing that out!
I did have reasons for stating them here: The pills (and possibly the lack of thyroid meds) definitely made me more panicky and weepy. After I got off them, it was much easier to state my concerns to him in a calm and productive manner. While I was in a more emotional state, people seemed to attribute my teariness to being unreasonable and over-panicing. If someone was crying and looking distressed as they started a concern, I wouldn't take what they said seriously either.
My ex said I should go to therapy - because I looked really upset with the car thing. The therapists also spent time telling me I should go on antidepressants to stop fearful thoughts, and they were trying to reassure me that the relationship with my ex was good because I looked more anxious than the average person would have been for that situation, so they thought it was maybe it was only my anxiety "tricking" me into thinking unreasonable thoughts. So that's why I wrote it here - I hadn't want the MeFi community to dismiss my thoughts because of the over-emotional responses to situations that I would've been more calm about if I wasn't on the pills.
posted by LovingMyself at 7:45 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Please stop doing that.
Your feelings and needs are valid no matter where in your hormonal cycle you are or what pill you're taking.
-------------
I understand that my feelings are valid no matter my hormones - thank you for pointing that out!
I did have reasons for stating them here: The pills (and possibly the lack of thyroid meds) definitely made me more panicky and weepy. After I got off them, it was much easier to state my concerns to him in a calm and productive manner. While I was in a more emotional state, people seemed to attribute my teariness to being unreasonable and over-panicing. If someone was crying and looking distressed as they started a concern, I wouldn't take what they said seriously either.
My ex said I should go to therapy - because I looked really upset with the car thing. The therapists also spent time telling me I should go on antidepressants to stop fearful thoughts, and they were trying to reassure me that the relationship with my ex was good because I looked more anxious than the average person would have been for that situation, so they thought it was maybe it was only my anxiety "tricking" me into thinking unreasonable thoughts. So that's why I wrote it here - I hadn't want the MeFi community to dismiss my thoughts because of the over-emotional responses to situations that I would've been more calm about if I wasn't on the pills.
posted by LovingMyself at 7:45 AM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
everyone has covered most of it but I will say, I don't think hypothetical questions like this are useful or constructive.
It's one thing for someone to say "don't you dare get fat, I won't love you anymore." That would be an automatic DTMFA, obviously. A decent person doesn't say things like that (because it's cruel) and understands that time changes all of us (because that's reality.) But questions like this -- "will you love me if I become physically unattractive to you"; "will you love me forever no matter what happens"... how can anyone answer these in a way that's truthful and loving at the same time? It's ok to value things about your lover the way they are, even when we know that things can change.
I once saw one of the most devoted couples I know come very close to breaking up because she asked him something like "will you always love me no matter what?" and he said some nerdy, truthful thing like "I love you passionately but I can't anticipate every single possible thing that could happen in this world" and she took this to mean a statement that his love wasn't something she could count on. He loved (loves) her as faithfully as anyone can. The question was silly, at best; a reckless undermining of a solid relationship, at worst.
In your case, it's clear this guy was bad news and undermined your confidence in many ways; plus your therapist sounds bizarro. In future, better relationships, I hope you won't feel the need to seek reassurance like this, and if you do, just try to tell them what you need to hear, rather than set up hypotheticals that they're likely to fail. (But don't take this as meaning this breakup was your fault, by any stretch. You're well out of it with this guy.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:31 AM on July 23, 2018
It's one thing for someone to say "don't you dare get fat, I won't love you anymore." That would be an automatic DTMFA, obviously. A decent person doesn't say things like that (because it's cruel) and understands that time changes all of us (because that's reality.) But questions like this -- "will you love me if I become physically unattractive to you"; "will you love me forever no matter what happens"... how can anyone answer these in a way that's truthful and loving at the same time? It's ok to value things about your lover the way they are, even when we know that things can change.
I once saw one of the most devoted couples I know come very close to breaking up because she asked him something like "will you always love me no matter what?" and he said some nerdy, truthful thing like "I love you passionately but I can't anticipate every single possible thing that could happen in this world" and she took this to mean a statement that his love wasn't something she could count on. He loved (loves) her as faithfully as anyone can. The question was silly, at best; a reckless undermining of a solid relationship, at worst.
In your case, it's clear this guy was bad news and undermined your confidence in many ways; plus your therapist sounds bizarro. In future, better relationships, I hope you won't feel the need to seek reassurance like this, and if you do, just try to tell them what you need to hear, rather than set up hypotheticals that they're likely to fail. (But don't take this as meaning this breakup was your fault, by any stretch. You're well out of it with this guy.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:31 AM on July 23, 2018
Guys are largely attracted to women based on physical appearance.
Oh good god, women are attracted to men based on physical appearance as well. We’re just not allowed to flagrantly indulge our own petty, selfish, masturbatory desires over the wellbeing of our partner. Because in my opinion, being a whiny turd about lingerie is absolutely masturbatory in the most obviously selfish way; a less selfish man could just watch porn. If you want some brutal honesty, it’s this: most men in their 20s know they can get away with being shitstains for another 15 years at least, so they’re not worth dating.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:53 AM on July 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Oh good god, women are attracted to men based on physical appearance as well. We’re just not allowed to flagrantly indulge our own petty, selfish, masturbatory desires over the wellbeing of our partner. Because in my opinion, being a whiny turd about lingerie is absolutely masturbatory in the most obviously selfish way; a less selfish man could just watch porn. If you want some brutal honesty, it’s this: most men in their 20s know they can get away with being shitstains for another 15 years at least, so they’re not worth dating.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:53 AM on July 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
Also, it’s perfectly reasonable to question whether your emotions on birth control are really your own. Birth control fucks with a lot of women; it’s very possible it makes you more anxious, more insecure, etc.
On the other hand, your ex was a diseased asshole without taking any kind of hormonal pill, so no matter how you behaved it is still a great thing to leave him behind and never think of him again. 👍🏻
posted by stoneandstar at 10:55 AM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, your ex was a diseased asshole without taking any kind of hormonal pill, so no matter how you behaved it is still a great thing to leave him behind and never think of him again. 👍🏻
posted by stoneandstar at 10:55 AM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
"My ex said I should go to therapy - because I looked really upset with the car thing." He was finding another way to invalidate your feelings, undermine your confidence and get away with what he wanted to do. Your requests were in the realm of reasonable and he completely dismissed your feelings. Did you notice how he also had like five different and inconsistent reasons for why he wouldn't respect your requests after he had already outright scoffed/dismissed them? This guy was an asshole. And trying to make someone feel like they're in need of clinical levels of help for a relatively normal request is horrible.
The question you asked was kind of a set-up yeah, but I think maybe you asked it because your gut was telling you something was wrong and this was the most acceptable way you could figure out how to express that. Listen to your gut and keep on doing your self work, but also know that there isn't necessarily stuff "wrong" with you. You ended a relationship with an asshole and some shitty therapists. All in all, you're better off.
posted by purple_bird at 3:21 PM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
The question you asked was kind of a set-up yeah, but I think maybe you asked it because your gut was telling you something was wrong and this was the most acceptable way you could figure out how to express that. Listen to your gut and keep on doing your self work, but also know that there isn't necessarily stuff "wrong" with you. You ended a relationship with an asshole and some shitty therapists. All in all, you're better off.
posted by purple_bird at 3:21 PM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
But questions like this -- "will you love me if I become physically unattractive to you"; "will you love me forever no matter what happens"... how can anyone answer these in a way that's truthful and loving at the same time?
well, if the answer is "yes," you can say "yes," that's one easy way.
but those questions in your quotes are very different questions from the one asked, and the conflation of "gaining weight" with "becom[ing] physically unattractive to" one's partner is the kind of leap that is the whole point of asking the question - to find out if the partner is someone who will make it. that is so natural a leap to some people that they will make it without realizing they've disclosed something significant.
and someone with a thyroid condition looking at potential weight gain in the future is hardly "no matter what happens." come on. this is not like some "would you still love me if I turned into a lizard and had to live in a terrarium" thought experiment conundrum. not all people, but most people, certainly most people with a contributing health condition, gain some small amount of weight all through middle age, which adds up to a fair amount when you add all the years together; it's one of the things that makes people look their age. some people don't like this and some avoid it but we all know to expect it and reasonable people don't panic when asked to acknowledge it.
this is an unanswerable double bind only if "will you still love me when I'm old and grey" is an unanswerable double bind. how can anybody answer that in a way that's truthful and loving at the same time? I don't know, because I don't know what the actual difficulty is in doing so. people do it, all the time. many of them are are not just truthful in the moment but correct about their future selves, if they're in love and know their own characters and habits well enough. once you've had at least one long-term relationship, you already know how you react when your partner starts looking a little different from the way they did when you met, because everybody does it if you just wait a year or two.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:14 PM on July 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
well, if the answer is "yes," you can say "yes," that's one easy way.
but those questions in your quotes are very different questions from the one asked, and the conflation of "gaining weight" with "becom[ing] physically unattractive to" one's partner is the kind of leap that is the whole point of asking the question - to find out if the partner is someone who will make it. that is so natural a leap to some people that they will make it without realizing they've disclosed something significant.
and someone with a thyroid condition looking at potential weight gain in the future is hardly "no matter what happens." come on. this is not like some "would you still love me if I turned into a lizard and had to live in a terrarium" thought experiment conundrum. not all people, but most people, certainly most people with a contributing health condition, gain some small amount of weight all through middle age, which adds up to a fair amount when you add all the years together; it's one of the things that makes people look their age. some people don't like this and some avoid it but we all know to expect it and reasonable people don't panic when asked to acknowledge it.
this is an unanswerable double bind only if "will you still love me when I'm old and grey" is an unanswerable double bind. how can anybody answer that in a way that's truthful and loving at the same time? I don't know, because I don't know what the actual difficulty is in doing so. people do it, all the time. many of them are are not just truthful in the moment but correct about their future selves, if they're in love and know their own characters and habits well enough. once you've had at least one long-term relationship, you already know how you react when your partner starts looking a little different from the way they did when you met, because everybody does it if you just wait a year or two.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:14 PM on July 23, 2018 [8 favorites]
Guys like your boyfriend like to imagine that they live in a special land where The Men Are Rich and The Girls Are Pretty. Which is fine - we are all superficial assholes before we grow up. But you don't get to choose one half of a contract. He expects you to work hard on the sexy girlfriend-wife continuum, from wearing seductive lingerie to staying slim throughout middle age and beyond? That'll be just fine... as long as he works hard on the successful boyfriend-husband continuum, from regular Instagram-worthy gifts to providing a high-income lifestyle throughout your life and retirement. He will stay with you (unhappily! which means he really won't!) if you gain weight because of a serious illness but not if you are just being lazy? That'll be just be fine... as long as he can accept that you will stay with him (unhappily! which means you really won't!) if he loses his high-paying job because of a serious illness but not if he is just being lazy.
Personally, I have never met a guy, whether in real life or on TV, who doesn't get positively OUTRAGED when he is being treated as a wallet on legs instead of a whole human being and I bet you eleventy billion dollars your ex would call you a gold digger, a heartless bitch, or worse, and dump you in a hot minute, if you said the things to him that he said to you. So why hold yourself to a higher standard? Anyway, you are well rid of him now, thank god, but I hope this is food for thought for your future relationships.
posted by rada at 3:40 PM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Personally, I have never met a guy, whether in real life or on TV, who doesn't get positively OUTRAGED when he is being treated as a wallet on legs instead of a whole human being and I bet you eleventy billion dollars your ex would call you a gold digger, a heartless bitch, or worse, and dump you in a hot minute, if you said the things to him that he said to you. So why hold yourself to a higher standard? Anyway, you are well rid of him now, thank god, but I hope this is food for thought for your future relationships.
posted by rada at 3:40 PM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks all. To be honest - I'm still wrapping my head around why some are saying it's a trick question or set up. Even though I didn't know I had a thyroid issue then, I knew I had been cycles of being heavier in the past (thyroid flare ups?), so it's a definite possibility.
So the argument is that no one knows for certain what they will do in the future...but I think they would have some idea at least? If he had asked me the same question, I would have confidently answered "no" because I know looks don't matter to me when it comes to someone I love. Would I ever change my mind in the future? Perhaps. But I know I don't care about his weight just as much as I know if I'll ever want kids or not. Once I knew his answer, I could either chose to leave (and find someone who cares less about looks or would love me enough to look past that), or stay knowing that he would leave if I gained a substantial amount of weight and didn't try hard enough to keep it off. I'm wondering - perhaps the better question would be "how much do you value weight in relationships"?
queenofbithynia, I actually asked my ex about the old and grey, and he said, "then we'll both turn old and grey together" and that he understood what aging will bring. I'm not sure what I make of that in the whole context of things, but at the time that sounded reassuring.
posted by LovingMyself at 4:33 PM on July 24, 2018
So the argument is that no one knows for certain what they will do in the future...but I think they would have some idea at least? If he had asked me the same question, I would have confidently answered "no" because I know looks don't matter to me when it comes to someone I love. Would I ever change my mind in the future? Perhaps. But I know I don't care about his weight just as much as I know if I'll ever want kids or not. Once I knew his answer, I could either chose to leave (and find someone who cares less about looks or would love me enough to look past that), or stay knowing that he would leave if I gained a substantial amount of weight and didn't try hard enough to keep it off. I'm wondering - perhaps the better question would be "how much do you value weight in relationships"?
queenofbithynia, I actually asked my ex about the old and grey, and he said, "then we'll both turn old and grey together" and that he understood what aging will bring. I'm not sure what I make of that in the whole context of things, but at the time that sounded reassuring.
posted by LovingMyself at 4:33 PM on July 24, 2018
Response by poster: Is this a better question to ask someone?
"Hey honey, my weight has fluxed in the past, and I have a thyroid disorder where it may be hard for me to keep off the weight no matter how much I exercise. Is that something you'd be all right with?"
posted by LovingMyself at 4:54 PM on July 24, 2018
"Hey honey, my weight has fluxed in the past, and I have a thyroid disorder where it may be hard for me to keep off the weight no matter how much I exercise. Is that something you'd be all right with?"
posted by LovingMyself at 4:54 PM on July 24, 2018
no one knows for certain what they will do in the future...but I think they would have some idea at least?
I was the one who called it a set-up and I stand by that. You asked the question seeking reassurance, not because you honestly wanted to know how your partner (your jerk partner, let's be clear I am not siding with him). That's why it's a setup, not because you wanted to know your partner's thoughts on weight gain in a relationship. It's fishing for a response that you feel you need emotionally, not actually asking a question in the spirit of open discourse.
Honestly I feel like the only way to ask this question would be "Is weight gain a dealbreaker for you?" and then drop them like a hot potato if they say "Yes."
posted by jessamyn at 6:00 PM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I was the one who called it a set-up and I stand by that. You asked the question seeking reassurance, not because you honestly wanted to know how your partner (your jerk partner, let's be clear I am not siding with him). That's why it's a setup, not because you wanted to know your partner's thoughts on weight gain in a relationship. It's fishing for a response that you feel you need emotionally, not actually asking a question in the spirit of open discourse.
Honestly I feel like the only way to ask this question would be "Is weight gain a dealbreaker for you?" and then drop them like a hot potato if they say "Yes."
posted by jessamyn at 6:00 PM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's a trick question because there's only one answer. Suppose he said "no, honey, your weight does not affect my love for you at all" and then he continued to act like a selfish asshat. Or, suppose he said "yes, if you get fat I will no longer love you." Would either of those answers have prompted positive movement on your part?
What you wanted to hear was "I love you, regardless of your weight" and for his actions to back up his words. It's a two-parter - the words without action are meaningless.
posted by lyssabee at 8:06 AM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
What you wanted to hear was "I love you, regardless of your weight" and for his actions to back up his words. It's a two-parter - the words without action are meaningless.
posted by lyssabee at 8:06 AM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
There are two answers. Yes and no.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:01 AM on July 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 9:01 AM on July 25, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's a trick question because there's only one answer.
that's not...a trick. not what a trick is, not what "trick question" ever means, which is a question designed to have no right answer, not one. or to deceive the respondent into missing the answer through misunderstanding the question's parameters. what a question with only one obvious right answer is, is easy. the one answer is the truth, whatever that is. could be "I don't know," for the sufficiently young and confused. Still easy.
"which way is north," "what's two plus two," "do I turn right or left at the intersection." trick questions, all, because they have a right answer?
"Will you still love me if I...." is a "trick" only to people who take it for granted that you can't tell the truth if it will make other people upset, because there should never be unhappy consequences for saying truthful things. to people who believe that you must never ask a man a question without giving him a script to crib from, first, because it is unfair for him to engage with his lover with only his own wits for backup. to people who believe it is a trick for a woman to find out true information that might lead her to make a decision about the relationship that her interlocutor doesn't like. It is not a trick question in any reasonable sense of the phrase.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:06 AM on July 25, 2018 [12 favorites]
that's not...a trick. not what a trick is, not what "trick question" ever means, which is a question designed to have no right answer, not one. or to deceive the respondent into missing the answer through misunderstanding the question's parameters. what a question with only one obvious right answer is, is easy. the one answer is the truth, whatever that is. could be "I don't know," for the sufficiently young and confused. Still easy.
"which way is north," "what's two plus two," "do I turn right or left at the intersection." trick questions, all, because they have a right answer?
"Will you still love me if I...." is a "trick" only to people who take it for granted that you can't tell the truth if it will make other people upset, because there should never be unhappy consequences for saying truthful things. to people who believe that you must never ask a man a question without giving him a script to crib from, first, because it is unfair for him to engage with his lover with only his own wits for backup. to people who believe it is a trick for a woman to find out true information that might lead her to make a decision about the relationship that her interlocutor doesn't like. It is not a trick question in any reasonable sense of the phrase.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:06 AM on July 25, 2018 [12 favorites]
Specific phrasing suggested here is a personal preference, not a fact.
"Hypothetical question = bad question" is a personal preference, not a fact.
"You cannot predict the future" is a fact but a totally useless one because it applies to every situation imaginable and yet people make plans and life goes on.
I think this has turned into a bit of a mean pile-on, especially people ascribing hidden evil motivations to your behavior. That's just uncalled for.
posted by rada at 11:21 AM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Hypothetical question = bad question" is a personal preference, not a fact.
"You cannot predict the future" is a fact but a totally useless one because it applies to every situation imaginable and yet people make plans and life goes on.
I think this has turned into a bit of a mean pile-on, especially people ascribing hidden evil motivations to your behavior. That's just uncalled for.
posted by rada at 11:21 AM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Honestly, I think it's totally reasonable to want to know if a man categorically will dump you if you gain weight. Most people gain weight as they age, for one thing, even if they just go from being thin to slightly-less-thin. In fact, because weight is such a charged issue for women, I think this is a different kind of question from some of the other "will you always love me" questions. Women have the deck stacked against them because we live in a society where it's normal for men to feel disappointed and ill-done-by if their partners age, fatten, etc, but not normal for women to feel the same way. Men who age are just being human; women who age are letting themselves go. And cis women partnered with cis men who want to have children are going to be dealing with pregnancy weight while their partners will not.
Women take far more risks in partnering with men than men do with women - risks of their reproductive years, social capital and earning potential. It is entirely reasonable to know before committing whether a man very substantially prioritizes youth, thinness and beauty, because you won't have those forever. You don't want to get ditched at mid-life with a couple of kids and a mommy-track resume because you don't look twenty-five anymore.
Obviously we can't predict the future, and you can't ask someone to love you unconditionally forever, but gathering information about whether they're likely to throw you away when you're forty is important.
The older I get, the more I think that people are often enormously naive about committed relationships, and that most women need far more information, proven track record of human decency, etc than they tend to get from men.
It's better to get your "will this person ditch me because I no longer give him sufficient pants-feelings after I've spent ten years cleaning his house and bearing his children" information from observing and interacting with the guy. Outright asking isn't as reliable as the information gained about someone's character from being around them.
I think one thing you should do, OP, is learn to trust your gut. This guy actually gave you the "am I a reliable long-term partner" answer through his behavior long before you asked the question. You recognized this - your unhappiness with his behavior was your recognition of the answer. Trust those feelings going forward!
posted by Frowner at 12:21 PM on July 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
Women take far more risks in partnering with men than men do with women - risks of their reproductive years, social capital and earning potential. It is entirely reasonable to know before committing whether a man very substantially prioritizes youth, thinness and beauty, because you won't have those forever. You don't want to get ditched at mid-life with a couple of kids and a mommy-track resume because you don't look twenty-five anymore.
Obviously we can't predict the future, and you can't ask someone to love you unconditionally forever, but gathering information about whether they're likely to throw you away when you're forty is important.
The older I get, the more I think that people are often enormously naive about committed relationships, and that most women need far more information, proven track record of human decency, etc than they tend to get from men.
It's better to get your "will this person ditch me because I no longer give him sufficient pants-feelings after I've spent ten years cleaning his house and bearing his children" information from observing and interacting with the guy. Outright asking isn't as reliable as the information gained about someone's character from being around them.
I think one thing you should do, OP, is learn to trust your gut. This guy actually gave you the "am I a reliable long-term partner" answer through his behavior long before you asked the question. You recognized this - your unhappiness with his behavior was your recognition of the answer. Trust those feelings going forward!
posted by Frowner at 12:21 PM on July 25, 2018 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: You asked the question seeking reassurance, not because you honestly wanted to know how your partner (your jerk partner, let's be clear I am not siding with him). That's why it's a setup, not because you wanted to know your partner's thoughts on weight gain in a relationship. It's fishing for a response that you feel you need emotionally, not actually asking a question in the spirit of open discourse.
Perhaps I had made my motivations unclear when I said I had to "push what I needed to hear from him to feel secure." I indeed wanted to know his thoughts, whether he would answer "yes" or "no", because his previous actions alluded to the answer being "yes" (that would have not been acceptable to me). When I heard a reply that implied "yes", but didn't clearly state it, I pushed to get a definite answer from him (hoping that it was actually "no"). That's when his answer turned into "yes, unless it is out of your hands", which I naively interpreted as "no, unless you let yourself go" - which didn't seem so bad at the time. After talking to my therapist and thinking I am one to eat healthy and exercise anyway, I had chosen to stay.
"Hypothetical question = bad question" is a personal preference, not a fact.
Thank you for reminding me that opinions don't make things facts. I had forgot the 70+ upvotes for some posts and had focused on the individual opinions instead. Not internalizing and believing every opinion as fact is one of the mindsets I'm working on changing!
posted by LovingMyself at 2:56 PM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Perhaps I had made my motivations unclear when I said I had to "push what I needed to hear from him to feel secure." I indeed wanted to know his thoughts, whether he would answer "yes" or "no", because his previous actions alluded to the answer being "yes" (that would have not been acceptable to me). When I heard a reply that implied "yes", but didn't clearly state it, I pushed to get a definite answer from him (hoping that it was actually "no"). That's when his answer turned into "yes, unless it is out of your hands", which I naively interpreted as "no, unless you let yourself go" - which didn't seem so bad at the time. After talking to my therapist and thinking I am one to eat healthy and exercise anyway, I had chosen to stay.
"Hypothetical question = bad question" is a personal preference, not a fact.
Thank you for reminding me that opinions don't make things facts. I had forgot the 70+ upvotes for some posts and had focused on the individual opinions instead. Not internalizing and believing every opinion as fact is one of the mindsets I'm working on changing!
posted by LovingMyself at 2:56 PM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
After reading your clarifications, I'm going to respectfully disagree with those saying your question about weight gain was an unfair question. I think the difference of opinion is because some people view it as a purely hypothetical question, but if you've had weight fluctuations in the past it's really not.
Your alternative phrasing is better though, I think. People will generally interpret "will you still love me if X?" questions as seeking reassurance not information. Questions about dealbreakers or behaviours can be more productive. For example, "would you stay in this relationship if I discovered I couldn't have biological kids?" or "is it a deal breaker if I quit my job next year and become an artist?". That said, people's preferences differ. Personally, I feel like in a healthy relationship there's no "wrong" thing to say - no need to filter your thoughts - as long as you're not denigrating your partner.
Having said all that, I think I'm focusing on the wrong tiny aspect of your situation. Congratulations on your self-work. Please try to be kind to yourself and recognize the only use to rehashing this relationship is to discover what you value and to only be with partners who value you.
I recognize and in some ways applaud your reluctance to find a new therapist - my concern is that you'll believe what a therapist says over your own beliefs/feelings in circumstances where you shouldn't. A good therapist could really help you, though, and I wish you luck in finding one.
posted by ersatzhuman at 10:12 AM on July 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Your alternative phrasing is better though, I think. People will generally interpret "will you still love me if X?" questions as seeking reassurance not information. Questions about dealbreakers or behaviours can be more productive. For example, "would you stay in this relationship if I discovered I couldn't have biological kids?" or "is it a deal breaker if I quit my job next year and become an artist?". That said, people's preferences differ. Personally, I feel like in a healthy relationship there's no "wrong" thing to say - no need to filter your thoughts - as long as you're not denigrating your partner.
Having said all that, I think I'm focusing on the wrong tiny aspect of your situation. Congratulations on your self-work. Please try to be kind to yourself and recognize the only use to rehashing this relationship is to discover what you value and to only be with partners who value you.
I recognize and in some ways applaud your reluctance to find a new therapist - my concern is that you'll believe what a therapist says over your own beliefs/feelings in circumstances where you shouldn't. A good therapist could really help you, though, and I wish you luck in finding one.
posted by ersatzhuman at 10:12 AM on July 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm marking this resolved. You were right it was a bad relationship because after the initial feelings of relief, for the past month, I've never felt more happier and care-free with how my life is going! Thank you all for your perspectives and for helping me see that I should trust my gut feelings and opinions more!
posted by LovingMyself at 9:17 AM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by LovingMyself at 9:17 AM on August 22, 2018 [6 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by languagehat at 7:15 AM on July 22, 2018 [46 favorites]