Was I asking my partner to enable my anxiety?
July 15, 2018 6:51 AM Subscribe
Were the requests I made to my ex from values I should stand behind, or from irrational fears that I should have kept to myself? How can I tell I if a value exists only because of anxiety? Snowflakes inside.
I feel slight uneasiness in the form of stress when I'm in a car with someone who I notice have "poor" driving habits like excessive speeding, texting while driving, driving without both hands on wheel, not looking at mirrors, and not signaling. I also feel slightly more uneasy when I am the driver in a smaller car, busy freeways, and one lane roads. If I'm with a strong driver, I feel fine. Also the uneasiness hasn't stopped me from driving any differently, but if I could choose, I would pick a shorter daily commute and drive a larger car to reduce stress. My stress levels driving depends on the time of my monthly cycle - some days the stress is not noticible, and other days it is (I've also stopped taking birth control which helped tremendously).
My ex had a small car, and is a little shaky in my opinion. He'd run over a parking lot curb about once a month (and that's when I'm in the car with him!). He also drove one handed with 2-3 fingers holding the bottom on the wheel, so the car jerked off balance slightly sometimes. I noticed but didn't think much of these since they were on inside roads. Then I noticed how he would drive after drinking (not illegally; one beer, and he'd sometimes wait an hour or so if two beers, but he's lightweight at 120 pounds), and drive one-handed with the 2-3 fingers on the freeway. I felt slightly on edge by these. I would be ok with the sight uneasiness short-term, but since it was long term, I felt I should say something. I felt scared to bring it up because I felt ashamed of my anxiety and didn't know how to ask without offending him. I definitely could've brought them up better. (Note these two things happened separately over the course of a year, so I'll focus on the drinking one since they are similar).
I'd get visibly stressed worrying what his reaction would be. I shakily and tearfully ask if we could wait longer before leaving, and he would abide, but with obvious, silent annoyance. When things were calmer, I brought it up again. He expressed defensiveness by rolling his eyes saying it's absolutely safe because he drinks it slowly and he's well under the limit. Feeling dismissed, I'd feel the need to explain my opinion. We'd argue over facts and dui calculators. He also said he didn't want to enable my anxiety and gently suggested I start therapy again, so I did, but my stance still hasn't changed. My therapist actually agreed with me. She said she wouldn't feel comfortable either, and that I shouldn't put myself in a situation where I didn't feel safe.
I explained to him that it's not about him, and I had just wanted to come up with something that would be comfortable for both of us. I tried to come up with compromises, like one beer per hour, me driving, or me taking an Uber (that idea really offended him). He said he didn't want to be treated like a criminal before he did anything wrong, and he wanted to decide for himself when he was good to drive. He also said he doesn't believe in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides. He said waiting a little longer (or putting both hands on the wheel) is a minor thing for him to change - but he doesn't want to because he thinks it's safe, I'm asking him to change a habit, and it'd be going against his principles.
Eventually (a year after more individual and couples therapy), I realized what I really wanted more was to feel respected for my opinions, and that I should give myself those things instead if he couldn't. I told him that I was totally fine with feeling uneasy if it was that important to him. He said he still felt like he had no other choice, and he had been abiding to my needs this entire time (without telling me) because I had looked so scared, and he wanted me to feel safe. I had explained most of my panic was from the fear his response. Plus, I was on birth control which made me way more tearfully fearful and tense than I usually am. He still didn't seem convienced I would be ok with it though, and we never fully worked it out.
Should I have even brought these two things up in the first place with him? What can I do in the next relationship? My ex was pretty careful about safety compared to most people. I doubt myself often and have trouble sticking up for my values. It just makes sense to me that someone should have as much control over a fast moving piece of metal the best they can, and with all the random cars in the road, it's just not worth the risk. Safely is listed as one of my core values, but I wonder if it's only a value because of anxiety. How can I tell? Thanks!
I feel slight uneasiness in the form of stress when I'm in a car with someone who I notice have "poor" driving habits like excessive speeding, texting while driving, driving without both hands on wheel, not looking at mirrors, and not signaling. I also feel slightly more uneasy when I am the driver in a smaller car, busy freeways, and one lane roads. If I'm with a strong driver, I feel fine. Also the uneasiness hasn't stopped me from driving any differently, but if I could choose, I would pick a shorter daily commute and drive a larger car to reduce stress. My stress levels driving depends on the time of my monthly cycle - some days the stress is not noticible, and other days it is (I've also stopped taking birth control which helped tremendously).
My ex had a small car, and is a little shaky in my opinion. He'd run over a parking lot curb about once a month (and that's when I'm in the car with him!). He also drove one handed with 2-3 fingers holding the bottom on the wheel, so the car jerked off balance slightly sometimes. I noticed but didn't think much of these since they were on inside roads. Then I noticed how he would drive after drinking (not illegally; one beer, and he'd sometimes wait an hour or so if two beers, but he's lightweight at 120 pounds), and drive one-handed with the 2-3 fingers on the freeway. I felt slightly on edge by these. I would be ok with the sight uneasiness short-term, but since it was long term, I felt I should say something. I felt scared to bring it up because I felt ashamed of my anxiety and didn't know how to ask without offending him. I definitely could've brought them up better. (Note these two things happened separately over the course of a year, so I'll focus on the drinking one since they are similar).
I'd get visibly stressed worrying what his reaction would be. I shakily and tearfully ask if we could wait longer before leaving, and he would abide, but with obvious, silent annoyance. When things were calmer, I brought it up again. He expressed defensiveness by rolling his eyes saying it's absolutely safe because he drinks it slowly and he's well under the limit. Feeling dismissed, I'd feel the need to explain my opinion. We'd argue over facts and dui calculators. He also said he didn't want to enable my anxiety and gently suggested I start therapy again, so I did, but my stance still hasn't changed. My therapist actually agreed with me. She said she wouldn't feel comfortable either, and that I shouldn't put myself in a situation where I didn't feel safe.
I explained to him that it's not about him, and I had just wanted to come up with something that would be comfortable for both of us. I tried to come up with compromises, like one beer per hour, me driving, or me taking an Uber (that idea really offended him). He said he didn't want to be treated like a criminal before he did anything wrong, and he wanted to decide for himself when he was good to drive. He also said he doesn't believe in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides. He said waiting a little longer (or putting both hands on the wheel) is a minor thing for him to change - but he doesn't want to because he thinks it's safe, I'm asking him to change a habit, and it'd be going against his principles.
Eventually (a year after more individual and couples therapy), I realized what I really wanted more was to feel respected for my opinions, and that I should give myself those things instead if he couldn't. I told him that I was totally fine with feeling uneasy if it was that important to him. He said he still felt like he had no other choice, and he had been abiding to my needs this entire time (without telling me) because I had looked so scared, and he wanted me to feel safe. I had explained most of my panic was from the fear his response. Plus, I was on birth control which made me way more tearfully fearful and tense than I usually am. He still didn't seem convienced I would be ok with it though, and we never fully worked it out.
Should I have even brought these two things up in the first place with him? What can I do in the next relationship? My ex was pretty careful about safety compared to most people. I doubt myself often and have trouble sticking up for my values. It just makes sense to me that someone should have as much control over a fast moving piece of metal the best they can, and with all the random cars in the road, it's just not worth the risk. Safely is listed as one of my core values, but I wonder if it's only a value because of anxiety. How can I tell? Thanks!
I'm kind of like you on driving safety and I had an ex with whom I would not go on road trips (he wanted to) because IMO he was a bad driver. This really bugged him because thinking of himself as a good driver (to the point where he was always talking about how he was a better driver than other people) was kind of part of his identity.
We also had a similar discussion around drinking and driving. The effects of alcohol on judgment and reaction time are linear, meaning if you're less impaired than the legal limit, you have a legally allowable level of impairement, but you're still impaired. There's nothing magical that happens at .08 that takes you from exactly as you are stone-sober to a deadly menace.
So basically, I agree with your concerns, but I think you can't tell someone how to drive without being wierdly controlling. I think your reasonable options were to just not let him be the one driving. If you go out to a drinking event, you don't drink and you drive. Decline to drive with him and meet there. Don't go on roadtrips with him.
That said, this " He also said he doesn't believe in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides." seems kind of douche-baggy to me. I mean in general if there's something simple you can do that costs you nothing and makes a person you care about feel better in some way why wouldn't you do it? If he'd said "I just find it hard to remember because I've been doing it like this so long." or "I find that my hands cramp up" or just about anyting other than "I have nothing to gain here other than a happy partner which I apparently consider 'nothing'" it would be another story, but this as presented is very yucky to me.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:08 AM on July 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
We also had a similar discussion around drinking and driving. The effects of alcohol on judgment and reaction time are linear, meaning if you're less impaired than the legal limit, you have a legally allowable level of impairement, but you're still impaired. There's nothing magical that happens at .08 that takes you from exactly as you are stone-sober to a deadly menace.
So basically, I agree with your concerns, but I think you can't tell someone how to drive without being wierdly controlling. I think your reasonable options were to just not let him be the one driving. If you go out to a drinking event, you don't drink and you drive. Decline to drive with him and meet there. Don't go on roadtrips with him.
That said, this " He also said he doesn't believe in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides." seems kind of douche-baggy to me. I mean in general if there's something simple you can do that costs you nothing and makes a person you care about feel better in some way why wouldn't you do it? If he'd said "I just find it hard to remember because I've been doing it like this so long." or "I find that my hands cramp up" or just about anyting other than "I have nothing to gain here other than a happy partner which I apparently consider 'nothing'" it would be another story, but this as presented is very yucky to me.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:08 AM on July 15, 2018 [9 favorites]
Should I have even brought these two things up in the first place with him?
The first is about basic safety. Cars are the most deadly machines in the USA, and it is appalling that people are so blasé about deadly consequences of distracted driving. Cars are the first or second leading cause of death for most age groups in the USA.
Whether you are in a relationship or not, it is reasonable to not ride as a passenger with people whose driving you do not trust, period. In the case of long-term relationships, it is reasonable to ask for someone to avoid obviously unsafe behavior (texting) if they want you to ride with them.
The second is about feeling respected in a relationship. It is reasonable to break up with anyone who doesn't respect your feelings and opinions, period.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:10 AM on July 15, 2018 [17 favorites]
The first is about basic safety. Cars are the most deadly machines in the USA, and it is appalling that people are so blasé about deadly consequences of distracted driving. Cars are the first or second leading cause of death for most age groups in the USA.
Whether you are in a relationship or not, it is reasonable to not ride as a passenger with people whose driving you do not trust, period. In the case of long-term relationships, it is reasonable to ask for someone to avoid obviously unsafe behavior (texting) if they want you to ride with them.
The second is about feeling respected in a relationship. It is reasonable to break up with anyone who doesn't respect your feelings and opinions, period.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:10 AM on July 15, 2018 [17 favorites]
Also: enabling your anxiety? WTF! I have an anxiety disorder. Medication helps but it never disappears completely. That is a health issue I have. It’s not a bad habit that somebody can enable like offering me a sugary dessert when I’m trying to avoid carbohydrates after years of living on Little Debbie snack cakes. In addition to medication I also took a super helpful Kaiser class about managing anxiety, which I found very useful. On none of the pages of my workbook did it suggest that I should manage my anxiety by riding with a butthurt boyfriend who took my concerns personally and nursed a grudge.
posted by Bella Donna at 7:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 7:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think a lot of this is overly-anxious on your part, since you don't describe a situation in which your boyfriend is seriously impaired, but I also think your boyfriend's approach to the drinking and driving thing is a little weird and very defensive. Has he missed all those drinking and driving campaigns that point out that the person doing the drinking is actually not a good judge of whether they should be driving? Asking to wait a little while longer before leaving someplace so he has more chance to sober up isn't a huge imposition unless it means you're going to be late for something else -- in which case, maybe he should have thought of that before his plan included drinking and then driving right away.
Overall, this guy sounds like kind of an ass -- he won't even consider making incredibly minor adjustments to make you feel safe and happy? What does he see his role in a relationship as if it isn't to make his partner feel safe and happy?
(FWIW, I don't think I've ever been in a car with someone who consistently keeps two hands on the wheel while they drive, especially on the highway.)
posted by jacquilynne at 7:12 AM on July 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
Overall, this guy sounds like kind of an ass -- he won't even consider making incredibly minor adjustments to make you feel safe and happy? What does he see his role in a relationship as if it isn't to make his partner feel safe and happy?
(FWIW, I don't think I've ever been in a car with someone who consistently keeps two hands on the wheel while they drive, especially on the highway.)
posted by jacquilynne at 7:12 AM on July 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
Cars are the most deadly machines in the USA, and it is appalling that people are so blasé about deadly consequences of distracted driving. Cars are the first or second leading cause of death for most age groups in the USA.
I came in to make the same point. People who don't drive safely might as well be twirling loaded guns around. They are actively making it more likely that they will murder a stranger and ruin the lives of that stranger's entire family.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:14 AM on July 15, 2018 [23 favorites]
I came in to make the same point. People who don't drive safely might as well be twirling loaded guns around. They are actively making it more likely that they will murder a stranger and ruin the lives of that stranger's entire family.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:14 AM on July 15, 2018 [23 favorites]
Best answer: This was me with an ex who drove in a way that made me and many others anxious with his driving. I was afraid to speak up because it would just be turned into my anxiety causing trouble, not his driving. Guess what I know now. A good driver is a good driver when their passengers feel safe. A good partner is a good partner when their loved one feels safe. who cares if you have a lower threshold than other people for feeling the (ACTUAL) danger of hurtling through space in a metal object? A good driver and a good partner should want to adjust the ride for you. Applies metaphorically too.
posted by nantucket at 7:22 AM on July 15, 2018 [45 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 7:22 AM on July 15, 2018 [45 favorites]
Best answer: I think the weird part is when he made it about a principle, like it's his personal value to drive within a certain window of time after drinking, or to hold a steering wheel a certain way. How are those values? Sounds more like his value is doing his own thing and not modifying his decisions to accommodate another person. Like the steering wheel is a symbol for his independence. It shows that his statement about not wanting to enable your anxiety was likely not the primary driver behind his choices. If that had been the case, there were so many other options -- like the two of you seeing your therapist about it or coming up with a plan ahead of time that you both felt comfortable with.
I think your anxiety may have been a factor, especially since you can link it with hormonal changes. BUT I also think you should have been able to expect a kind and generous response, regardless of the rationality or irrationality of your request, and you didn't get that in the way you needed.
posted by ramenopres at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2018 [22 favorites]
I think your anxiety may have been a factor, especially since you can link it with hormonal changes. BUT I also think you should have been able to expect a kind and generous response, regardless of the rationality or irrationality of your request, and you didn't get that in the way you needed.
posted by ramenopres at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2018 [22 favorites]
I think you were being reasonable, because cars are dangerous machines that kill people all the time.
My relationship to driving is a lot like yours--I describe myself as a "nervous passenger" (I have vivid memories of being in the backseat of a speeding and brake-slamming car in high school, driven by another high school student, and freaking out) and I also get nervous in some situations when driving. Honestly the only solution I found was to live in a place where I don't have to drive and I rarely have to be in cars.
posted by millipede at 7:54 AM on July 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
My relationship to driving is a lot like yours--I describe myself as a "nervous passenger" (I have vivid memories of being in the backseat of a speeding and brake-slamming car in high school, driven by another high school student, and freaking out) and I also get nervous in some situations when driving. Honestly the only solution I found was to live in a place where I don't have to drive and I rarely have to be in cars.
posted by millipede at 7:54 AM on July 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hi fellow anxious person! So I think this is one of those issues (how I drive vs. how you think I should drive) that is a real emotional hot button for a lot of people, especially men who feel it's tied to their sense of masculinity.
I think there's two things at play here; how he's driving and how he's addressing your feelings. The driving thing is more difficult to advise on from outside the situation. I can't judge whether he'd be impaired from that amount of alcohol, but the running over the curb thing seems to point to a person who doesn't give enough attention/importance to being aware of his surroundings generally when behind the wheel. I'd ask yourself if you've had this level of anxiety with other drivers; if not I'd say that points more to his behavior than you generally being anxious about being a passenger.
But the bigger issue, to me, is his response to your fears. He may not feel he's endangering you, but you are 100% entitled to set limits on what feels safe to you.
"He also said he doesn't believe in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides. " Red flag #1. That's just not what a compromise is. This sounds like "I'm going to do what I want and you need to deal with it."
"he doesn't want to because he thinks it's safe, I'm asking him to change a habit, and it'd be going against his principles." Red flag #2. If his principles (eye roll) are needing to drive after drinking and not securely holding a steering wheel, find someone with better principles. Your offer to do the driving when he's been drinking is completely reasonable and smart.
Now it does sound like anxiety is at play here in a lot of this (fear of addressing the issue, general anxiety around driving) and it might be worth investigating with your therapist. Finding productive ways to address these issues when they arise (talking about them when you're feeling calm, making it about your feelings vs. the other person's unsafe driving, etc) could be really helpful, but that's only going to work with a person willing to listen.
posted by gennessee at 8:03 AM on July 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think there's two things at play here; how he's driving and how he's addressing your feelings. The driving thing is more difficult to advise on from outside the situation. I can't judge whether he'd be impaired from that amount of alcohol, but the running over the curb thing seems to point to a person who doesn't give enough attention/importance to being aware of his surroundings generally when behind the wheel. I'd ask yourself if you've had this level of anxiety with other drivers; if not I'd say that points more to his behavior than you generally being anxious about being a passenger.
But the bigger issue, to me, is his response to your fears. He may not feel he's endangering you, but you are 100% entitled to set limits on what feels safe to you.
"He also said he doesn't believe in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides. " Red flag #1. That's just not what a compromise is. This sounds like "I'm going to do what I want and you need to deal with it."
"he doesn't want to because he thinks it's safe, I'm asking him to change a habit, and it'd be going against his principles." Red flag #2. If his principles (eye roll) are needing to drive after drinking and not securely holding a steering wheel, find someone with better principles. Your offer to do the driving when he's been drinking is completely reasonable and smart.
Now it does sound like anxiety is at play here in a lot of this (fear of addressing the issue, general anxiety around driving) and it might be worth investigating with your therapist. Finding productive ways to address these issues when they arise (talking about them when you're feeling calm, making it about your feelings vs. the other person's unsafe driving, etc) could be really helpful, but that's only going to work with a person willing to listen.
posted by gennessee at 8:03 AM on July 15, 2018 [8 favorites]
This sounds so hard and frustrating for you both.
He's right that nothing he was doing is "unusual".
You're right that he could have been safer and that cars are very dangerous.
It's very hard to try to respond to a loved one who is having a terrified panic attack, so I feel for your partner here. It's also horrible to be having one, and to feel like you can't speak up until you're at that point.
What I really notice here that's causing suffering and making it harder to reach an agreement is your fear of his *reaction*. It denied you the chance to talk to him when the stakes were low, because your terror about driving had to get over the threshold of your terror about talking to him.
I really recommend some counseling for this so that you can work on how to bring up this type of concern more confidently, in a manner that you can be confident is reasonable and kind. Anxiety lies to us about what is likely to happen and sometimes it lies about our loved ones too, so I think you need some people to talk to about the details to figure out if your fear of his reaction was justified or not.
Perhaps also to reduce your own fear around driving so that you have the option to drive yourself.
posted by Lady Li at 8:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
He's right that nothing he was doing is "unusual".
You're right that he could have been safer and that cars are very dangerous.
It's very hard to try to respond to a loved one who is having a terrified panic attack, so I feel for your partner here. It's also horrible to be having one, and to feel like you can't speak up until you're at that point.
What I really notice here that's causing suffering and making it harder to reach an agreement is your fear of his *reaction*. It denied you the chance to talk to him when the stakes were low, because your terror about driving had to get over the threshold of your terror about talking to him.
I really recommend some counseling for this so that you can work on how to bring up this type of concern more confidently, in a manner that you can be confident is reasonable and kind. Anxiety lies to us about what is likely to happen and sometimes it lies about our loved ones too, so I think you need some people to talk to about the details to figure out if your fear of his reaction was justified or not.
Perhaps also to reduce your own fear around driving so that you have the option to drive yourself.
posted by Lady Li at 8:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
As someone who's been hit by a car, I thank you for raising your driving safety concerns with your ex.
I also think that having such different opinions about safety would be a dealbreaker for me. I personally would rather address that with my partner and find out that we weren't compatible than be on edge all the time. Plus the way he treated your requests sounds really disrespectful and over-the-top (doing what you asked would "go against his principles"? seriously?).
On whether it's only your anxiety talking: I do think reducing anxiety is something many of us should work on, but I think you get a pass when you're in a car with a driver who's been drinking and being dismissive. Also, I imagine raising your concerns in both cases would be very anxiety-inducing. Good on you for speaking up for yourself.
posted by ferret branca at 8:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
I also think that having such different opinions about safety would be a dealbreaker for me. I personally would rather address that with my partner and find out that we weren't compatible than be on edge all the time. Plus the way he treated your requests sounds really disrespectful and over-the-top (doing what you asked would "go against his principles"? seriously?).
On whether it's only your anxiety talking: I do think reducing anxiety is something many of us should work on, but I think you get a pass when you're in a car with a driver who's been drinking and being dismissive. Also, I imagine raising your concerns in both cases would be very anxiety-inducing. Good on you for speaking up for yourself.
posted by ferret branca at 8:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: To me the part of this that reads as maybe benefiting from professional mental health support is the second-guessing and feeling bad about trying to draw lines. Drivers have an ethical responsibility to the people around them to operate vehicles as safely as possible, and as I have gotten less psychologically warped by the selfish, impulsive, alcoholic, abusive behavior of people like my parents, I have stopped feeling guilty or uncertain about this belief.
I don't think I could be friends with someone who drank and drove, even below the legal limt, they clearly care too much about their convenience and too little about not killing other people. If hearing this means some person then wants tell me stories about how that makes me mentally ill or fragile or controlling or whatever, as far as I'm concerned, they're just demonstrating that in addition to not caring if they endanger people, they don't care if they hurt my feelings. Which isn't a surprise.
I used to frame a lot more things in terms of micro-scale, "I-language" like "I wish you wouldn't drink and drive, text while driving, or drive recklessly, especially on the highway, it makes me feel uncomfortable." I've gradually gotten more comfortable talking in absolutes and imperatives. For instance, accidents at higher speeds are much, much more likely to be fatal. Also, pull over to text, and focus on the road when operating at least a ton of metal around other human beings and their tons of metal. LovingMyself, I feel like you probably agree with these things, but maybe being able to be this forceful when you want, and thinking forcefulness is permitted for you, are things to look at.
LovingMyself, you're allowed to take up space in the world! You're allowed to have dealbreakers and moral values and strong opinions! Feeling more comfortable sharing those things may be part of getting psychologically healthier.
posted by bagel at 8:12 AM on July 15, 2018 [17 favorites]
I don't think I could be friends with someone who drank and drove, even below the legal limt, they clearly care too much about their convenience and too little about not killing other people. If hearing this means some person then wants tell me stories about how that makes me mentally ill or fragile or controlling or whatever, as far as I'm concerned, they're just demonstrating that in addition to not caring if they endanger people, they don't care if they hurt my feelings. Which isn't a surprise.
I used to frame a lot more things in terms of micro-scale, "I-language" like "I wish you wouldn't drink and drive, text while driving, or drive recklessly, especially on the highway, it makes me feel uncomfortable." I've gradually gotten more comfortable talking in absolutes and imperatives. For instance, accidents at higher speeds are much, much more likely to be fatal. Also, pull over to text, and focus on the road when operating at least a ton of metal around other human beings and their tons of metal. LovingMyself, I feel like you probably agree with these things, but maybe being able to be this forceful when you want, and thinking forcefulness is permitted for you, are things to look at.
LovingMyself, you're allowed to take up space in the world! You're allowed to have dealbreakers and moral values and strong opinions! Feeling more comfortable sharing those things may be part of getting psychologically healthier.
posted by bagel at 8:12 AM on July 15, 2018 [17 favorites]
I explained to him that it's not about him
but it was. because he wasn't a safe driver. And you knew that. Texting while driving, really?
So, two things. First of all, have some faith in yourself and your perception. Driving IS dangerous, inherently; being sloppy about it is even more so. Texting while driving is obviously a sign of poor safety habits and questionable judgment. You note yourself that you are not anxious when you are with a strong driver. So you may want to, you know, not date people who do this.
And then this:
I told him that I was totally fine with feeling uneasy if it was that important to him.
what the what? Why on earth would you set yourself up for this?
My husband is the best driver I know -- much stronger than me, and I'm pretty good -- but when I ask him to slow down a bit for me, HE DOES. Right away, and without getting butthurt about it. Because my feeling of physical safety matters to him; going fast is not worth terrifying his wife for.
In your next relationship, be clear to yourself about what's going on, and be clear about your needs. "I'll drive" or "hey would you humor me and use both hands on the wheel, I get real uncomfortable with that finger thing" are fine.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:36 AM on July 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
but it was. because he wasn't a safe driver. And you knew that. Texting while driving, really?
So, two things. First of all, have some faith in yourself and your perception. Driving IS dangerous, inherently; being sloppy about it is even more so. Texting while driving is obviously a sign of poor safety habits and questionable judgment. You note yourself that you are not anxious when you are with a strong driver. So you may want to, you know, not date people who do this.
And then this:
I told him that I was totally fine with feeling uneasy if it was that important to him.
what the what? Why on earth would you set yourself up for this?
My husband is the best driver I know -- much stronger than me, and I'm pretty good -- but when I ask him to slow down a bit for me, HE DOES. Right away, and without getting butthurt about it. Because my feeling of physical safety matters to him; going fast is not worth terrifying his wife for.
In your next relationship, be clear to yourself about what's going on, and be clear about your needs. "I'll drive" or "hey would you humor me and use both hands on the wheel, I get real uncomfortable with that finger thing" are fine.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:36 AM on July 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
just popping in to agree with a few other posters who were struck by some of your ex's reactions to your needs. I'm glad you got out of that relationship, which I know is probably an overly pat thing for an internet stranger to say, but just from what you wrote above it sounds like he was never going to be capable of really hearing you, or of not feeling threatened by you having needs that you voiced.
I think your anxiety is a * major * red herring in this situation.. as some one who also has anxiety and what not (er, not sure who doesn't have anxiety , but anyhow) , and who grew up around some challenging ("difficult"?) people, I also have at times been overly vulnerable to pathologizing (hmm, is that a word?) myself when really.. the other person was being a jerk and treating me badly.
him suggesting that you discuss the anxiety about this driving stuff in therapy? red flag number.. whatever number we're on. him getting upset at the idea of you taking an uber? also nuts.
i'm truly not judging from on high here, I have been you in similar , parallel-ish situations.. time turned out to be a key to seeing it all a bit more clearly.. but i'm sure it will come up again, truth is people don't always show you all of their colors at first, and so you get attached, and then later you realize.. some things.
my hunch, re future relationships -- anytime you find whether or not to bring something up with a significant other, or a friend, or whoever, is met with a fearful feeling on your part.. that in my view is a very ominous sign. people are nutty and I'm not saying your ex is a particularly unique variety of controlling nut, actually I often wonder if this sort of thing is more the rule than the exception in relationships, but it's still no way to live, feeling afraid to bring up your needs.
sorry if someone above already said some of this, i confess i didn't read every comment all the way through, just got antsy to chime in.
posted by elgee at 9:27 AM on July 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think your anxiety is a * major * red herring in this situation.. as some one who also has anxiety and what not (er, not sure who doesn't have anxiety , but anyhow) , and who grew up around some challenging ("difficult"?) people, I also have at times been overly vulnerable to pathologizing (hmm, is that a word?) myself when really.. the other person was being a jerk and treating me badly.
him suggesting that you discuss the anxiety about this driving stuff in therapy? red flag number.. whatever number we're on. him getting upset at the idea of you taking an uber? also nuts.
i'm truly not judging from on high here, I have been you in similar , parallel-ish situations.. time turned out to be a key to seeing it all a bit more clearly.. but i'm sure it will come up again, truth is people don't always show you all of their colors at first, and so you get attached, and then later you realize.. some things.
my hunch, re future relationships -- anytime you find whether or not to bring something up with a significant other, or a friend, or whoever, is met with a fearful feeling on your part.. that in my view is a very ominous sign. people are nutty and I'm not saying your ex is a particularly unique variety of controlling nut, actually I often wonder if this sort of thing is more the rule than the exception in relationships, but it's still no way to live, feeling afraid to bring up your needs.
sorry if someone above already said some of this, i confess i didn't read every comment all the way through, just got antsy to chime in.
posted by elgee at 9:27 AM on July 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm trying to imagine what "enabling someone's anxiety" would actually look like.
I, too, have anxiety. One time I freaked out that I might somehow have HIV (and my risk profile is very, very, very low) because my doctor didn't call back the day he said he would with my routine test results. I had to be home that day for other reasons, and my wife stayed home with me because she knew how freaked out I was. That didn't "enable" my anxiety - I didn't suddenly think I was correct to be anxious, I didn't suddenly think that freaking out was a good way to get my wife's attention; all it did was show me wife cared about me and my feelings, even when she didn't share those feelings.
I am also intensely phobic of fish, to the extent that if I unexpectedly encounter one at the grocery store, restaurant, beach, or wherever (I am a favored daughter of the Gods of Inadvertent Comedy, so surprise fish encounters happen to me more than you'd expect), I experience brief but severe panic reactions. My wife has designated herself my "fish scout," and goes out of her way to watch out for fish and warn me. This doesn't "enable" my anxiety or validate that I'm somehow correct to absolutely lose it over dead fish - it helps me manage and usually avoid those reactions.
All of which is to say that I think your ex's point about "enabling your anxiety" was absolute self-serving bullshit, and you have every right and reason to respond accordingly to anybody who tries to use your anxiety as a means of excusing their poor behavior. My experience with anxiety has been that I can take actions and medications to manage it, and occasionally when I'm in extreme awfulizing mode the occasional gentle reminder can sometimes be helpful to some extent - but I do not think that acts of care and respect for my needs have ever "enabled" my anxiety.
You are right to ask for what you need. You deserve to be with someone who respects those needs.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:59 AM on July 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
I, too, have anxiety. One time I freaked out that I might somehow have HIV (and my risk profile is very, very, very low) because my doctor didn't call back the day he said he would with my routine test results. I had to be home that day for other reasons, and my wife stayed home with me because she knew how freaked out I was. That didn't "enable" my anxiety - I didn't suddenly think I was correct to be anxious, I didn't suddenly think that freaking out was a good way to get my wife's attention; all it did was show me wife cared about me and my feelings, even when she didn't share those feelings.
I am also intensely phobic of fish, to the extent that if I unexpectedly encounter one at the grocery store, restaurant, beach, or wherever (I am a favored daughter of the Gods of Inadvertent Comedy, so surprise fish encounters happen to me more than you'd expect), I experience brief but severe panic reactions. My wife has designated herself my "fish scout," and goes out of her way to watch out for fish and warn me. This doesn't "enable" my anxiety or validate that I'm somehow correct to absolutely lose it over dead fish - it helps me manage and usually avoid those reactions.
All of which is to say that I think your ex's point about "enabling your anxiety" was absolute self-serving bullshit, and you have every right and reason to respond accordingly to anybody who tries to use your anxiety as a means of excusing their poor behavior. My experience with anxiety has been that I can take actions and medications to manage it, and occasionally when I'm in extreme awfulizing mode the occasional gentle reminder can sometimes be helpful to some extent - but I do not think that acts of care and respect for my needs have ever "enabled" my anxiety.
You are right to ask for what you need. You deserve to be with someone who respects those needs.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:59 AM on July 15, 2018 [10 favorites]
Please recalibrate your expectations of others. You should have dumped him the first time he didn't give a crap about your feelings.
He's a garbage person playing fast and loose with his own safety and the safety of others. He's an awful driver, an awful judge of what's appropriate! In my state there is a law against texting while driving, it's not a guideline or a suggestion, it is a law.
Believe in yourself more. This is not an area to compromise on.
posted by jbenben at 10:06 AM on July 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
He's a garbage person playing fast and loose with his own safety and the safety of others. He's an awful driver, an awful judge of what's appropriate! In my state there is a law against texting while driving, it's not a guideline or a suggestion, it is a law.
Believe in yourself more. This is not an area to compromise on.
posted by jbenben at 10:06 AM on July 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
I've known exactly one person in the course of my life who is a driver themself but is also comfortable with other people's driving.
That said, "not believing in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides" is a real asshole philosophy.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:13 AM on July 15, 2018
That said, "not believing in compromises when it's not a complete win-win for both sides" is a real asshole philosophy.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:13 AM on July 15, 2018
Response by poster: Thank you all! I just want to clarify that he doesn't text and drive (that was just an example of what would make me uneasy). He prides himself on being a safe driver, and pulls over if he needs to text. I agree he took it personally. I've suggested being the designated driver since I don't drink, but he was offended and hurt by that idea.
Now that I think about it, I used to ride with a friend who used to take off both hands on the wheel up to 5 seconds to gesture as she was speaking. I was slightly uneasy about it, I wasn't anxious. The anxious feelings in the car started after birth control. I'm not denying I do have some anxiety, but it had gotten worse after birth control. I've since then stopped taking them, but my hormones are still out of whack. I've never had pms before either; I hope it will go back to normal eventually. At least the panic attacks - that I've never had before the pills - disappeared after I switched to a different pill (that came with it's own side effects).
Regarding the replies in that say it is not enabling - that has given me more to think about. He had post-poned moving forward with our relationship until he could see obvious changes in me though therapy. That put pressure on me because I didn't know exactly what he wanted me to change. He knew he had fears of commitment and avoidance issues, so that might be part of it. I also agree that with a more empathetic partner, I might be able to tell them casually without being scared. My ex seemed like he couldn't validate my feelings without it invalidating his own values for some reason, and maybe I sensed that though past interactions with him.
posted by LovingMyself at 11:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Now that I think about it, I used to ride with a friend who used to take off both hands on the wheel up to 5 seconds to gesture as she was speaking. I was slightly uneasy about it, I wasn't anxious. The anxious feelings in the car started after birth control. I'm not denying I do have some anxiety, but it had gotten worse after birth control. I've since then stopped taking them, but my hormones are still out of whack. I've never had pms before either; I hope it will go back to normal eventually. At least the panic attacks - that I've never had before the pills - disappeared after I switched to a different pill (that came with it's own side effects).
Regarding the replies in that say it is not enabling - that has given me more to think about. He had post-poned moving forward with our relationship until he could see obvious changes in me though therapy. That put pressure on me because I didn't know exactly what he wanted me to change. He knew he had fears of commitment and avoidance issues, so that might be part of it. I also agree that with a more empathetic partner, I might be able to tell them casually without being scared. My ex seemed like he couldn't validate my feelings without it invalidating his own values for some reason, and maybe I sensed that though past interactions with him.
posted by LovingMyself at 11:11 AM on July 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Your issues with your ex sound like they were such that it’s good they are an ex. However, I would still make sure you put to bed your anxieties about being driven. My mother in law was terrible, she had HUGE anxiety about being driven and my husband told her eventually that he wouldn’t drive her anymore and she needed to start taking a taxi because her screaming and pestering him to be safer didn’t allow him to focus and drive safely. You might not be like that now, but she was probably like you at your age and never got it under control.
posted by catspajammies at 11:43 AM on July 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by catspajammies at 11:43 AM on July 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
The way that you approached it does sound quite anxiety-laden. But the underlying things you are worried about sound perfectly reasonable things to worry about! He sounds like an absolutely shit driver, and I certainly wouldn’t get in the car with anyone after two drinks. I just would not get in, and ai would call the police if they tried to drive off on their own (I know lots of Americans think driving drunk is fine, but it really really isn’t). Particularly if there was a sober driver ready and willing to drive for him (ie you) - he is going out of his way to drive drunk, which suggests his judgement is far more impaired than he thinks it is. No chance would I be getting in the car with him.
posted by tinkletown at 12:08 PM on July 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by tinkletown at 12:08 PM on July 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I felt scared to bring it up because I felt ashamed of my anxiety and didn't know how to ask without offending him
I told him that I was totally fine with feeling uneasy if it was that important to him.
These jumped out at me.
You seem very judgemental about yourself and your anxiety and almost apologizing for it.
Being in a passenger seat makes you vulnerable - your physical safety, not to mention your emotional well-being, is in the hands of another person. It's your prerogative to remove yourself from a situation where you do not feel safe.
The fact that your ex felt offended when you mentioned taking an Uber makes me think he likes being in control and hated the thought of you yourself being in control. This option was letting him drive however he wanted but gave you the control over your own safety.
You are asking about how to handle these alarm bells in the future.
One way is to discuss them with another person you trust, like you did with your therapist.
Another is to openly say: "I know I am prone to excessive anxiety and my fear might be overblown here, but I do not feel safe when you are only holding the wheel with two fingers. Could you do me a favor and drive with both hands on the wheel?" and when he acts offended, yes, take the Uber. I am serious.
You have the right to feel safe.
(Also, your gut might have been warning you about this guy in general).
posted by M. at 1:00 PM on July 15, 2018 [4 favorites]
Greetings fellow anxiety-haver. Please allow me to put this into perspective.
"Would you like to be boyfriend and girlfriend?"
"Yes, but not until you change your fundamental nature for my convenience. I can't be bothered to accept you for who you are, so please go to therapy until you're more able to conform to my personal definition of normal."
...
"Would you mind terribly not doing this thing that could kill me?"
"I am offended and butt-hurt that you would even consider asking me not to kill you. The unmitigated gall! I shall now use my penis to drive since it's against my principles to do anything you want me to do ever ever."
Honey, it's time for you to learn that you're worth more than this.
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 1:04 PM on July 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
"Would you like to be boyfriend and girlfriend?"
"Yes, but not until you change your fundamental nature for my convenience. I can't be bothered to accept you for who you are, so please go to therapy until you're more able to conform to my personal definition of normal."
...
"Would you mind terribly not doing this thing that could kill me?"
"I am offended and butt-hurt that you would even consider asking me not to kill you. The unmitigated gall! I shall now use my penis to drive since it's against my principles to do anything you want me to do ever ever."
Honey, it's time for you to learn that you're worth more than this.
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 1:04 PM on July 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am both a relaxed driver and passenger, and almost everything you have written I would be 100% on board with calling out a driver on for being an idiot. The only thing where your anxiety might possibly be leading you astray on road safety is regarding the safety of larger versus smaller cars - the Euro NCAP safety testing makes it clear that size really doesn't correlate to safety, with there being unsafe big cars and very safe small cars. However, it is also very true that it often feels safer in a big car, even if it's one that has a far worse occupant safety rating than a two-seat smart.
He sounds like both an asshole, and someone for whom the car is an extension of self - any criticism of the car or his driving is interpreted as a criticism of his person and character. It sounds like your anxiety is not the issue - if you'd asked for a change in his driving style (or asked to drive yourself) because you were really carsick I think he'd have the same dismissiveness of your distress.
posted by Vortisaur at 1:15 PM on July 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
He sounds like both an asshole, and someone for whom the car is an extension of self - any criticism of the car or his driving is interpreted as a criticism of his person and character. It sounds like your anxiety is not the issue - if you'd asked for a change in his driving style (or asked to drive yourself) because you were really carsick I think he'd have the same dismissiveness of your distress.
posted by Vortisaur at 1:15 PM on July 15, 2018 [5 favorites]
When he said he was "enabling" your anxiety, that means he views it as a tool you are using against him. If he allows you to change his behaviors due to your anxiety this time, that sets the precedent for you "using" your anxiety in the future. This, of course, is absolute horseshit. You are going to have anxiety no matter what. You asking for reasonable accommodations to lessen that anxiety will not suddenly make you have anxiety about other things you wish to change. He's telling you he thinks you were trying to manipulate him.
You mention that it started with birth control, which made me think of this very neat, informative little op-ed "documentary" about a woman's experiences in being "4 different people" on birth control. You're not alone.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:05 PM on July 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
You mention that it started with birth control, which made me think of this very neat, informative little op-ed "documentary" about a woman's experiences in being "4 different people" on birth control. You're not alone.
posted by FirstMateKate at 2:05 PM on July 15, 2018 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow this community has great insight! Most of you hit the nail on the head: I'm worried that I have a tendency to want to "control" and "manipulate" my environment to accommodate my anxiety. However, I'm confused by these responses because I don't think I should be doing that because it limits mine and other people's possibilities in life in ways I'm slowly noticing now (which is why I'm trying to figure out if the driving thing is purely anxiety-based or value-based, and it sounds like it's both).
I'm surprised people are saying he's an asshole when I thought we just had different values. One of the couples therapist said that most people here (in the US) drive after one beer, so I imagine it's like someone asking me to get 8 hours of sleep instead of 7 before I drove - I'd be fed up and annnoyed too. Another couples therapists pointed that out it was like I had a need to control people, so maybe I didn't go about it the right way. The words he used before breaking up with me was "I know it's hard for you to get out of your comfort zone." I can't ignore the overwhelming opinion here that he wasn't as kind as he should be though, so I have more to think about! I've definitely thought he was trying to protect himself more than lean into the relationship at times.
The driving stuff was the largest conflict, but it was the first of other things that caused him to withdraw. You've all been so useful; maybe I'll post some of our other issues here in the future to get insight on those!
posted by LovingMyself at 3:41 PM on July 15, 2018
I'm surprised people are saying he's an asshole when I thought we just had different values. One of the couples therapist said that most people here (in the US) drive after one beer, so I imagine it's like someone asking me to get 8 hours of sleep instead of 7 before I drove - I'd be fed up and annnoyed too. Another couples therapists pointed that out it was like I had a need to control people, so maybe I didn't go about it the right way. The words he used before breaking up with me was "I know it's hard for you to get out of your comfort zone." I can't ignore the overwhelming opinion here that he wasn't as kind as he should be though, so I have more to think about! I've definitely thought he was trying to protect himself more than lean into the relationship at times.
The driving stuff was the largest conflict, but it was the first of other things that caused him to withdraw. You've all been so useful; maybe I'll post some of our other issues here in the future to get insight on those!
posted by LovingMyself at 3:41 PM on July 15, 2018
I'm surprised people are saying he's an asshole when I thought we just had different values.
I think the "he's an asshole" stuff is coming from how he seems to be responding to your concerns which is, to me, not like someone who cares about your well-being but someone who seems to want to problematize your own perspectives on things and make himself seem like the only one who is "rational"
So like, okay, you are nervy when he drives after a beer (which I agree, most Americans would do) and is slightly ... relaxed... about how he drives. You express concerns and instead of listening and responding in a way that would achieve compromise, he basically makes up some personal mission statement about how he doesn't like to compromise (this is a red flag in someone you are dating, to my mind, if they say this right after you ask them to compromise0 indicating that his own sens eof who he is and wants to be is more important than being in this specific relationship. And yeah sure dating someone who is anxious is a pain. But anxiety is sort of like a disease, you can manage it but you can't really get rid of it entirely (i have anxiety) but the worst thing that you can do is second guess everything you are concerned about and/or let one partner basically define for you what concerns you have are anxious or not.
So it's good that you are asking here to get a second set of opinions. I mean if my partner were doing a thing that left me "tearful and shaken" and then was silently annoyed, fuck that guy. That's not a compassionate response, even if I am tearful and shaken because I am anxious. It may mean I have to get my anxiety more in check but it shouldn't mean my partner just gets to disregard my concerns.
So yeah my read is also "this guy is an asshole" You shouldn't have to just lump it with your own feelings because he doesn't want to budge an inch in who he is. Dating someone with anxiety can be difficult but it can also be rewarding and it's a thing that most people can learn to manage and help you manage. A supportive partner (I have one) would never act like this.
posted by jessamyn at 4:38 PM on July 15, 2018 [11 favorites]
I think the "he's an asshole" stuff is coming from how he seems to be responding to your concerns which is, to me, not like someone who cares about your well-being but someone who seems to want to problematize your own perspectives on things and make himself seem like the only one who is "rational"
So like, okay, you are nervy when he drives after a beer (which I agree, most Americans would do) and is slightly ... relaxed... about how he drives. You express concerns and instead of listening and responding in a way that would achieve compromise, he basically makes up some personal mission statement about how he doesn't like to compromise (this is a red flag in someone you are dating, to my mind, if they say this right after you ask them to compromise0 indicating that his own sens eof who he is and wants to be is more important than being in this specific relationship. And yeah sure dating someone who is anxious is a pain. But anxiety is sort of like a disease, you can manage it but you can't really get rid of it entirely (i have anxiety) but the worst thing that you can do is second guess everything you are concerned about and/or let one partner basically define for you what concerns you have are anxious or not.
So it's good that you are asking here to get a second set of opinions. I mean if my partner were doing a thing that left me "tearful and shaken" and then was silently annoyed, fuck that guy. That's not a compassionate response, even if I am tearful and shaken because I am anxious. It may mean I have to get my anxiety more in check but it shouldn't mean my partner just gets to disregard my concerns.
So yeah my read is also "this guy is an asshole" You shouldn't have to just lump it with your own feelings because he doesn't want to budge an inch in who he is. Dating someone with anxiety can be difficult but it can also be rewarding and it's a thing that most people can learn to manage and help you manage. A supportive partner (I have one) would never act like this.
posted by jessamyn at 4:38 PM on July 15, 2018 [11 favorites]
I agree with everyone who is saying that your former partner was being unreasonable and unkind about accommodating your anxiety, and that it is good that you are no longer together.
However, I have some independent concerns about your anxiety about driving. I think that the fact that your anxiety about driving is somewhat generalized-you don't say how many drivers have poor habits that make you anxious vs. how many are 'strong' drivers who make you feel safe, but I have a suspicion that it is many or almost all drivers that make you anxious. And especially it is self-directed-even though this is a live concern for you and safety is a very high priority so (presumably) you are taking all reasonable driving precautions, you still feel anxious about your own driving. Those things suggest to me that you should seek some kind of treatment for it-for your own sake, not for the sake of your next relationship.
posted by Kwine at 7:52 PM on July 15, 2018
However, I have some independent concerns about your anxiety about driving. I think that the fact that your anxiety about driving is somewhat generalized-you don't say how many drivers have poor habits that make you anxious vs. how many are 'strong' drivers who make you feel safe, but I have a suspicion that it is many or almost all drivers that make you anxious. And especially it is self-directed-even though this is a live concern for you and safety is a very high priority so (presumably) you are taking all reasonable driving precautions, you still feel anxious about your own driving. Those things suggest to me that you should seek some kind of treatment for it-for your own sake, not for the sake of your next relationship.
posted by Kwine at 7:52 PM on July 15, 2018
When he said he was "enabling" your anxiety, that means he views it as a tool you are using against him. If he allows you to change his behaviors due to your anxiety this time, that sets the precedent for you "using" your anxiety in the future. This, of course, is absolute horseshit.
Agree so much with the above.
But I also want to comment on what the couple therapist(s) said, about your need to control people.
1. All human beings have a need for control OF OUR ENVIRONMENT. It's a basic human need.
2. There is a difference between wanting to control your environment and wanting to control your partner. Compare "I do not want to be your passenger after a beer" or "I do not feel safe when you do not touch the wheel, if we cannot achieve a compromise I am going to take an Uber" to "You should not be driving after a single beer even if I am not in the car" or "You should find a different job".
3. Your ex sounds like bad news and I would not go to couples therapy with a guy like this.
Consider what he is saying: "I could do what you're asking but I do not want to set a precedent for doing what you are asking in the future". I wouldn't want this guy as an acquaintance let alone a partner.
posted by M. at 9:56 PM on July 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
Agree so much with the above.
But I also want to comment on what the couple therapist(s) said, about your need to control people.
1. All human beings have a need for control OF OUR ENVIRONMENT. It's a basic human need.
2. There is a difference between wanting to control your environment and wanting to control your partner. Compare "I do not want to be your passenger after a beer" or "I do not feel safe when you do not touch the wheel, if we cannot achieve a compromise I am going to take an Uber" to "You should not be driving after a single beer even if I am not in the car" or "You should find a different job".
3. Your ex sounds like bad news and I would not go to couples therapy with a guy like this.
Consider what he is saying: "I could do what you're asking but I do not want to set a precedent for doing what you are asking in the future". I wouldn't want this guy as an acquaintance let alone a partner.
posted by M. at 9:56 PM on July 15, 2018 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Here's more info on my driving:
The two incidents with my ex were the only times I ever panicked and cried while in the car, just before I was about to tell him.
- Any mode of transportation: I get low-grade stress that builds up over time with any kind of commute over 30 minutes. I used to take an hour train and a twenty minute drive to the station. I felt really safe. I would feel a slight tightness in my shoulders and impatience after 30 minutes in though.
- Being a passenger: I grew up with some drivers who didn't signal, didn't look at their mirrors much, and would occasionally drift over the lane. I didn't feel anxious until close calls, and then I'd say something, but they didn't respond (maybe that's why I have trouble speaking up on these things). In adulthood, I don't think I feel anxious with most drivers? I've been in Ubers and friends who text while driving, and felt only a slight uneasiness, like "whoa there, you going to keep your eyes on the road?" Then again, I did ask my ex if we could take a route that took an hour and 15 minutes versus one that took an hour because it was on highways versus one lane. It just seemed the possibility of a head-on collision was higher at night on a single lane road (he said sure by the way). I have a feeling most people would not think about it and leave that up to the driver though?
- Being a driver: I don't feel any stress or anxiety on inside roads (I feel like a hypocrite, but I sometimes drive one-handed if there aren't many cars around) On highways, I feel stressed because I get overwhelmed by all the cars on the road at fast speeds (and merging, yuck). I've been commuting about 25 minutes on the highway for the past year. I've gotten better after stopping the pills, practicing mindfulness, and accepting the stress I feel. Listening to podcasts help a lot too. I still want a shorter commute though.
posted by LovingMyself at 6:57 AM on July 16, 2018
The two incidents with my ex were the only times I ever panicked and cried while in the car, just before I was about to tell him.
- Any mode of transportation: I get low-grade stress that builds up over time with any kind of commute over 30 minutes. I used to take an hour train and a twenty minute drive to the station. I felt really safe. I would feel a slight tightness in my shoulders and impatience after 30 minutes in though.
- Being a passenger: I grew up with some drivers who didn't signal, didn't look at their mirrors much, and would occasionally drift over the lane. I didn't feel anxious until close calls, and then I'd say something, but they didn't respond (maybe that's why I have trouble speaking up on these things). In adulthood, I don't think I feel anxious with most drivers? I've been in Ubers and friends who text while driving, and felt only a slight uneasiness, like "whoa there, you going to keep your eyes on the road?" Then again, I did ask my ex if we could take a route that took an hour and 15 minutes versus one that took an hour because it was on highways versus one lane. It just seemed the possibility of a head-on collision was higher at night on a single lane road (he said sure by the way). I have a feeling most people would not think about it and leave that up to the driver though?
- Being a driver: I don't feel any stress or anxiety on inside roads (I feel like a hypocrite, but I sometimes drive one-handed if there aren't many cars around) On highways, I feel stressed because I get overwhelmed by all the cars on the road at fast speeds (and merging, yuck). I've been commuting about 25 minutes on the highway for the past year. I've gotten better after stopping the pills, practicing mindfulness, and accepting the stress I feel. Listening to podcasts help a lot too. I still want a shorter commute though.
posted by LovingMyself at 6:57 AM on July 16, 2018
I'm worried that I have a tendency to want to "control" and "manipulate" my environment to accommodate my anxiety. However, I'm confused by these responses because I don't think I should be doing that because it limits mine and other people's possibilities in life in ways I'm slowly noticing now
With all the love in my heart and all the respect in the world, why the hell should you NOT be controlling or manipulating your environment to accommodate your anxiety?
If you broke your leg, would you not arrange pillows and an ottoman in the living room so you could watch tv comfortably? Or put a stepstool under the kitchen table to prop your leg up on? Or take up area rugs so they wouldn't be a slipping hazard with the crutches?
I've carefully controlled and manipulated my life to accommodate my anxiety (and bipolar and physical conditions) so that I'm rarely at home alone (anxiety and fall potential), never leave the house alone, work from home, basically live my life in 90 square feet. Other people's jobs permitting, I get a shower once a week in advance of 4-5 doctor's appointments crammed into one day. (And I HATE HATE HATE HATE my caregiver's driving. He freaking READS FACEBOOK while he's driving. I bury my head in my sewing and put on a podcast on my phone and try to ignore him.)
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 6:32 PM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
With all the love in my heart and all the respect in the world, why the hell should you NOT be controlling or manipulating your environment to accommodate your anxiety?
If you broke your leg, would you not arrange pillows and an ottoman in the living room so you could watch tv comfortably? Or put a stepstool under the kitchen table to prop your leg up on? Or take up area rugs so they wouldn't be a slipping hazard with the crutches?
I've carefully controlled and manipulated my life to accommodate my anxiety (and bipolar and physical conditions) so that I'm rarely at home alone (anxiety and fall potential), never leave the house alone, work from home, basically live my life in 90 square feet. Other people's jobs permitting, I get a shower once a week in advance of 4-5 doctor's appointments crammed into one day. (And I HATE HATE HATE HATE my caregiver's driving. He freaking READS FACEBOOK while he's driving. I bury my head in my sewing and put on a podcast on my phone and try to ignore him.)
posted by The Almighty Mommy Goddess at 6:32 PM on July 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
It just seemed the possibility of a head-on collision was higher at night on a single lane road
This is true, and none of what you're cataloging about yourself is outside the norm for people who are conscious that driving as dangerous. It IS dangerous. One lane roads at night are maybe the most dangerous category. It's smart to acknowledge this and take the safer route.
Honestly with your updates I think the work you ought to do is on trusting your own judgment. I don't know if it was your ex or what, but something has done a number on your self-trust.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is true, and none of what you're cataloging about yourself is outside the norm for people who are conscious that driving as dangerous. It IS dangerous. One lane roads at night are maybe the most dangerous category. It's smart to acknowledge this and take the safer route.
Honestly with your updates I think the work you ought to do is on trusting your own judgment. I don't know if it was your ex or what, but something has done a number on your self-trust.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:57 AM on July 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I would feel a slight tightness in my shoulders and impatience after 30 minutes in though
It's possible that in addition to anxiety causing this tightness, muscle tightness could be causing or contributing to your anxiety at some times.
There are many body based approaches that might help with this (all of which are completely compatible with continuing therapy. Alexander method, feldenkrais, yoga, are things some people have found helpful. There's others out there too.
posted by yohko at 7:01 PM on July 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's possible that in addition to anxiety causing this tightness, muscle tightness could be causing or contributing to your anxiety at some times.
There are many body based approaches that might help with this (all of which are completely compatible with continuing therapy. Alexander method, feldenkrais, yoga, are things some people have found helpful. There's others out there too.
posted by yohko at 7:01 PM on July 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Also thanks everyone for reading between the lines and seeing that my ex is what I thought initially before I started doubting myself! I'm seeing so many other red flags now. I should've taken a step back at the very beginning when he showed up all our first four dates 15-20 minutes late without acknowledging it (until I told him punctuality was important to me). He also didn't apologize for coming late to group events that were waiting for him to get started. I won't go into detail as to his reason for feeling the need to purposely come late to things, but it definitely explains why he wouldn't budge on the driving thing.
I think I lost a lot of my self-trust after our debates where it seemed like he was the logical one, and after seeing three individual therapists and two couples therapists who kept pointing out how I was having anxious doubts, and trying to convince me that all these flags I was seeing was nothing to worry about. I think the problem was I sounded too doubtful when I said those flags, that even they doubted what I was saying? I mean, they were professionals who said they have been doing this for years. I'll have to think on that some more (feel free to pm me if you have some insight on that? I don't know if this is getting off topic and this question has ran it's course) Thanks again!
posted by LovingMyself at 7:55 PM on July 19, 2018
I think I lost a lot of my self-trust after our debates where it seemed like he was the logical one, and after seeing three individual therapists and two couples therapists who kept pointing out how I was having anxious doubts, and trying to convince me that all these flags I was seeing was nothing to worry about. I think the problem was I sounded too doubtful when I said those flags, that even they doubted what I was saying? I mean, they were professionals who said they have been doing this for years. I'll have to think on that some more (feel free to pm me if you have some insight on that? I don't know if this is getting off topic and this question has ran it's course) Thanks again!
posted by LovingMyself at 7:55 PM on July 19, 2018
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posted by Bella Donna at 7:06 AM on July 15, 2018 [4 favorites]