How does one friend at work?
July 19, 2018 6:15 AM Subscribe
Workplace friendships are strange, but either I've become impatient or this is stranger than normal. Wall of text below the fold.
R (cishet male) and I (cishet female) are colleagues who often work on allied projects, but dissimilar timelines/deadlines. R shares my sense of humour, my politics, some of my hobbies, and being a senior at the workplace, has been a very useful source of resources and information. He's married and there is zero weird/flirtatious vibe. I like him enormously most of the time. We have wonderful, stimulating conversations and plenty of laughter.
But R does not seem to understand boundaries. In the last few months, my deadlines have been many and with increasing pressure, while his have been spaced out. Sometimes, I've had to tell him that I cannot chat, or I need to get back to my work, and he has always, always reacted badly. Two incidents stand out. Once, after weeks of what I felt were perfectly normal interactions, he stopped talking to me for four weeks. Entirely. He went on a trip with his family and brought back souvenirs for everyone in the department except me (and this was a fairly public put down, because that we're friends is well known and that he brough me nothing is somehow also known). I finally had to ask him what was up, and he said I had somehow (no idea how - he did not elaborate even on questioning) made him feel unwelcome or that I never took the initiative for conversation. I was baffled but I apologized, then he apologized, and so the matter ended.
More recently, he had come by for a chat when I had just returned from a difficult meeting regarding a project. I was angry, frustrated and close to tears. I told him I couldn't talk then without meeting his eyes (I was rather sniffly and horribly embarrassed about it). He stomped back. I texted an apology for being rude five minutes later. He said okay. I thought the matter was over. He tells me a week later (again at my questioning because things didn't seem okay) that I cut him off with such brutality (his words, not mine) that he's now afraid to talk to me. I apologized again, and now things are back to sunshine and laughter. He said I must tell him about the work troubles later and that he would help.
Reader, I am a little annoyed. The first occasion remains a total mystery so I cannot even parse it. But during the second time, I told him it was a bad time to talk. I wasn't loud. It wasn't in a public setting where someone could've witnessed it. I actually said maybe six words in total, but yes, if he was coming over in a chummy, chatty mood, I did shut it down, because I was in no position to respond to it. Is that so bad?
He has been such a great friend in every other respect, but if I have to put in this much emotional labour in maintaining the friendship, I don't know... I'm ready and willing to apologize if I even unwittingly hurt someone. What chops my onion is the fact that he didn't choose to communicate. It's a workplace! Sometimes I'd be busy. Sometimes I'd be stressed. His workload is less than mine (he admits it himself). If he minds it every time I say I cannot talk, or cannot take a break at the same time... how does one address or fix that, especially since the other party just simmers in resentful silence?
I don't know why this is bothering me so much. Please help.
R (cishet male) and I (cishet female) are colleagues who often work on allied projects, but dissimilar timelines/deadlines. R shares my sense of humour, my politics, some of my hobbies, and being a senior at the workplace, has been a very useful source of resources and information. He's married and there is zero weird/flirtatious vibe. I like him enormously most of the time. We have wonderful, stimulating conversations and plenty of laughter.
But R does not seem to understand boundaries. In the last few months, my deadlines have been many and with increasing pressure, while his have been spaced out. Sometimes, I've had to tell him that I cannot chat, or I need to get back to my work, and he has always, always reacted badly. Two incidents stand out. Once, after weeks of what I felt were perfectly normal interactions, he stopped talking to me for four weeks. Entirely. He went on a trip with his family and brought back souvenirs for everyone in the department except me (and this was a fairly public put down, because that we're friends is well known and that he brough me nothing is somehow also known). I finally had to ask him what was up, and he said I had somehow (no idea how - he did not elaborate even on questioning) made him feel unwelcome or that I never took the initiative for conversation. I was baffled but I apologized, then he apologized, and so the matter ended.
More recently, he had come by for a chat when I had just returned from a difficult meeting regarding a project. I was angry, frustrated and close to tears. I told him I couldn't talk then without meeting his eyes (I was rather sniffly and horribly embarrassed about it). He stomped back. I texted an apology for being rude five minutes later. He said okay. I thought the matter was over. He tells me a week later (again at my questioning because things didn't seem okay) that I cut him off with such brutality (his words, not mine) that he's now afraid to talk to me. I apologized again, and now things are back to sunshine and laughter. He said I must tell him about the work troubles later and that he would help.
Reader, I am a little annoyed. The first occasion remains a total mystery so I cannot even parse it. But during the second time, I told him it was a bad time to talk. I wasn't loud. It wasn't in a public setting where someone could've witnessed it. I actually said maybe six words in total, but yes, if he was coming over in a chummy, chatty mood, I did shut it down, because I was in no position to respond to it. Is that so bad?
He has been such a great friend in every other respect, but if I have to put in this much emotional labour in maintaining the friendship, I don't know... I'm ready and willing to apologize if I even unwittingly hurt someone. What chops my onion is the fact that he didn't choose to communicate. It's a workplace! Sometimes I'd be busy. Sometimes I'd be stressed. His workload is less than mine (he admits it himself). If he minds it every time I say I cannot talk, or cannot take a break at the same time... how does one address or fix that, especially since the other party just simmers in resentful silence?
I don't know why this is bothering me so much. Please help.
Ha - this is super reasonable. People go through weird swings. The same thing has happened to me with work associates. One day they'll be super chatty and happy, then either office politics, nonwork drama, or something causes them to totally change their demeaner toward me.
I figure there's two ways to handle work relationships. Either you go all in - meet them for drinks/coffee/lunch regularly outside of work/on weekends, hang out with their family, tell them your secrets and goals and aspirations. Try to make them a friend outside of work, where you are willing to put them over your job reputation.
Or, you keep them at a professional level. Friendly, firm, but work associates. Always politically correct. Always know that they could betray you for a leg up in the world. Always guarded in case the politics swing around and someone is looking for a scapegoat. It's dramatic, but this is putting work ahead of your friendship.
Some people at work put their friendships with everyone above their work. Those are the people that everyone knows what they did last weekend, and who they like and don't like.
Some people at work put their work ahead of their friendships - they don't have a lot of work friends, because it is a job after all. They eat lunch alone and are excited to go home.
You can play in the middle - but remember the equation of friendships: Friends = mutual respect + no conflicting interests + no power differences + lots and lots of time together. At work, it's common there are sometimes conflicting interests and power differences, and usually the time together is under 2 years, when real friendships happen after 5 years or so.
On this situation, I'd keep him at arms length. He's shown to be in-stable toward you and it isn't worth your emotional energy to worry about how he feels. Try to make a different friend! You'd be surprised at welcome almost anyone at work would be to going out to lunch with you.
posted by bbqturtle at 6:36 AM on July 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
I figure there's two ways to handle work relationships. Either you go all in - meet them for drinks/coffee/lunch regularly outside of work/on weekends, hang out with their family, tell them your secrets and goals and aspirations. Try to make them a friend outside of work, where you are willing to put them over your job reputation.
Or, you keep them at a professional level. Friendly, firm, but work associates. Always politically correct. Always know that they could betray you for a leg up in the world. Always guarded in case the politics swing around and someone is looking for a scapegoat. It's dramatic, but this is putting work ahead of your friendship.
Some people at work put their friendships with everyone above their work. Those are the people that everyone knows what they did last weekend, and who they like and don't like.
Some people at work put their work ahead of their friendships - they don't have a lot of work friends, because it is a job after all. They eat lunch alone and are excited to go home.
You can play in the middle - but remember the equation of friendships: Friends = mutual respect + no conflicting interests + no power differences + lots and lots of time together. At work, it's common there are sometimes conflicting interests and power differences, and usually the time together is under 2 years, when real friendships happen after 5 years or so.
On this situation, I'd keep him at arms length. He's shown to be in-stable toward you and it isn't worth your emotional energy to worry about how he feels. Try to make a different friend! You'd be surprised at welcome almost anyone at work would be to going out to lunch with you.
posted by bbqturtle at 6:36 AM on July 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
This guy sounds terribly immature. Sometimes people like this try to make you feel like there is something wrong with your behaviour when really it's them. This is not you; it's him. It sounds like he lashes out at you when you try to take care of your own needs. That is not okay! Also, even though there may not be any attraction on your side, there may be on his--even if you have not noticed it. He sounds very possessive of your attention in an unusual way for a friend or colleague.
I am sorry, because it's not nice to lose a friend, but I think you need to let this friendship fade. Normally I'd say be upfront with him about how you won't tolerate it if he treats you this way again, but he sounds capable of being pretty vindictive (giving you the silent treatment? Bringing back a gift after his trip for everyone but you? Come on. That was deliberate, done to "teach you a lesson" by excluding you, and in the same vein as his silent treatment), so I'd be careful. Especially since you say he is senior in your workplace, and there may be gender issues complicating things. (Is he senior to you? Do you report to him?) I'm not sure of the best way to do this, so maybe others will have better advice on how to do a careful, slow fade. But definitely document every instance where he is unprofessional to you, and stop giving him the benefit of the doubt. This is not how healthy or mature people act.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:45 AM on July 19, 2018 [18 favorites]
I am sorry, because it's not nice to lose a friend, but I think you need to let this friendship fade. Normally I'd say be upfront with him about how you won't tolerate it if he treats you this way again, but he sounds capable of being pretty vindictive (giving you the silent treatment? Bringing back a gift after his trip for everyone but you? Come on. That was deliberate, done to "teach you a lesson" by excluding you, and in the same vein as his silent treatment), so I'd be careful. Especially since you say he is senior in your workplace, and there may be gender issues complicating things. (Is he senior to you? Do you report to him?) I'm not sure of the best way to do this, so maybe others will have better advice on how to do a careful, slow fade. But definitely document every instance where he is unprofessional to you, and stop giving him the benefit of the doubt. This is not how healthy or mature people act.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:45 AM on July 19, 2018 [18 favorites]
Could there be a work related reason for this emotional weirdness? You say he’s senior but also that he’s less busy than you - I’ve known middle aged men who’ve acted weird and competitive around work stuff and it seemed to be related to their need to feel important and their worries about senescence. Could something like this be motivating him to get pissy when it comes up that you are busier than he is?
In general I acknowledge it’s often not worthwhile to try to analyze the root cause of why someone is standing on your foot. In this case I bring it up because this explanation is work politics related, and if it’s true it could have an impact on other things besides your friendship with him.
posted by eirias at 7:02 AM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
In general I acknowledge it’s often not worthwhile to try to analyze the root cause of why someone is standing on your foot. In this case I bring it up because this explanation is work politics related, and if it’s true it could have an impact on other things besides your friendship with him.
posted by eirias at 7:02 AM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
he'd hardly be the first man to feel entitled to a woman's full attention upon demand and react peevishly and childishly to being denied.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:12 AM on July 19, 2018 [29 favorites]
Response by poster: Popping back to clear up a few things:
We are the same age, but he's senior as he joined the org before I did. I do not report to him now, but it's entirely possible that I may have to in the future, so burning bridges is emphatically not a possibility. The workload varies enormously, and he's had to put in a couple of years of back breaking labour, so his slightly less intense current situation doesn't seem off to either of us. He's very good at his work and very confident about it, so workplace tension localized on me (esp since our work is allied, not identical, and our output independent of each other) seems unlikely.
I think my question is more about how I manage my own feelings of distress at these situations than anything else. It was rare to find someone whose non-work stuff was so in sync with my non-work stuff, without any romantic weirdness attached to it. To have to give it up for what doesn't feel like my fault sucks. Sigh.
posted by Nieshka at 7:28 AM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
We are the same age, but he's senior as he joined the org before I did. I do not report to him now, but it's entirely possible that I may have to in the future, so burning bridges is emphatically not a possibility. The workload varies enormously, and he's had to put in a couple of years of back breaking labour, so his slightly less intense current situation doesn't seem off to either of us. He's very good at his work and very confident about it, so workplace tension localized on me (esp since our work is allied, not identical, and our output independent of each other) seems unlikely.
I think my question is more about how I manage my own feelings of distress at these situations than anything else. It was rare to find someone whose non-work stuff was so in sync with my non-work stuff, without any romantic weirdness attached to it. To have to give it up for what doesn't feel like my fault sucks. Sigh.
posted by Nieshka at 7:28 AM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
your choice as I see it is basically to either dial it way back so he does not turn to you; or add more emotional labor to insulate his ego.
Option 2 is not that hard, but it is kind of gross. On the other hand, we do what we have to do at work, and almost all friendships require some amount of "handling," so you just have to do your own math on what you're willing to do to handle him.
(For instance in the situation where you were upset after your meeting and didn't want to talk: bet you anything you want that if you'd put a hand on his arm, looked at him tearfully and said "don't rush out at 5, ok? I need to talk to you later. But right now I'm too upset. Wait for me!" He'd have been just fine, probably even flattered.) Whether you can bring yourself to carry on this way is another thing.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:37 AM on July 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
Option 2 is not that hard, but it is kind of gross. On the other hand, we do what we have to do at work, and almost all friendships require some amount of "handling," so you just have to do your own math on what you're willing to do to handle him.
(For instance in the situation where you were upset after your meeting and didn't want to talk: bet you anything you want that if you'd put a hand on his arm, looked at him tearfully and said "don't rush out at 5, ok? I need to talk to you later. But right now I'm too upset. Wait for me!" He'd have been just fine, probably even flattered.) Whether you can bring yourself to carry on this way is another thing.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:37 AM on July 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well, my answer may be of little value, because this is me:
Some people at work put their work ahead of their friendships - they don't have a lot of work friends, because it is a job after all. They eat lunch alone and are excited to go home.
However, when one of my few work friends does try to talk to me, and I cannot talk right then and send them away, I feel like the onus on me to me to reconnect when I can talk. So I go by their cubicle as soon as I can (the same day, if at all possible) and say, hey, sorry about that, what's up? If the shoe was on the other foot, and the person didn't do that for me, I would certainly question whether they wanted to chat with me at all.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 7:41 AM on July 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Some people at work put their work ahead of their friendships - they don't have a lot of work friends, because it is a job after all. They eat lunch alone and are excited to go home.
However, when one of my few work friends does try to talk to me, and I cannot talk right then and send them away, I feel like the onus on me to me to reconnect when I can talk. So I go by their cubicle as soon as I can (the same day, if at all possible) and say, hey, sorry about that, what's up? If the shoe was on the other foot, and the person didn't do that for me, I would certainly question whether they wanted to chat with me at all.
posted by pH Indicating Socks at 7:41 AM on July 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Nieshka - I've found that despite you not feeling romantic weirdness - it's possible he is a bit more conflicted than you about this. If you have more in common with him than even his wife does, or if you are more attractive or if he is very slightly unsettled at home, it's possible that the relationship you've had with him has sometimes made him feel conflicted. Having an opposite gender friend, around the same age, with everything in common can make any guy wonder "what-if"... and he may be distancing himself for those reasons on top of the standard ones.
Having co-ed friendships is really hard because of this factor. Even if it's not there... it's still there. No matter what. Even between two happily married people - if you spend 8 hours a day with someone you like - it's at the very least going to make things feel a little conflicted in a few ways. I wouldn't discount this factor - it's been present in every work friend I've had of opposite gender at least to some extent.
posted by bbqturtle at 7:47 AM on July 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Having co-ed friendships is really hard because of this factor. Even if it's not there... it's still there. No matter what. Even between two happily married people - if you spend 8 hours a day with someone you like - it's at the very least going to make things feel a little conflicted in a few ways. I wouldn't discount this factor - it's been present in every work friend I've had of opposite gender at least to some extent.
posted by bbqturtle at 7:47 AM on July 19, 2018 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: I always struggle with how much context to provide in these questions, but this is my last round of threadsitting, pinky swear.
I did get back to him the same day (how could I not, after the great no-gift debacle?). We talked and texted through the week, but it felt a little off in a way I cannot define. A fuller response only came when I pushed on the awkwardness. I'm really not unapproachable, why not just tell me? Why do I have to do all this pushing and prodding only to hear I'm brutal (ouch!) and uncaring and inconsiderate?
I'm done with treating this as a QnA, I promise. Thank you for all the input so far!
posted by Nieshka at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2018
I did get back to him the same day (how could I not, after the great no-gift debacle?). We talked and texted through the week, but it felt a little off in a way I cannot define. A fuller response only came when I pushed on the awkwardness. I'm really not unapproachable, why not just tell me? Why do I have to do all this pushing and prodding only to hear I'm brutal (ouch!) and uncaring and inconsiderate?
I'm done with treating this as a QnA, I promise. Thank you for all the input so far!
posted by Nieshka at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2018
I'm sorry. You are being manipulated. That he publicly humiliated you is super concerning.
He's teaching you that his needs and his ego comes first.
This is office politics. He is not your friend. It's politics. It's politics. He is not your friend. He has already proven he has zero loyalty to you + he will cut you down publicly. He's not your friend.
Change your emotions and learn to play whatever game he's playing and/or look for another job. Try not to make this same mistake at work again. I'm so sorry. Sometimes the workplace is a shitty place to cultivate genuine friendships.
posted by jbenben at 8:06 AM on July 19, 2018 [16 favorites]
He's teaching you that his needs and his ego comes first.
This is office politics. He is not your friend. It's politics. It's politics. He is not your friend. He has already proven he has zero loyalty to you + he will cut you down publicly. He's not your friend.
Change your emotions and learn to play whatever game he's playing and/or look for another job. Try not to make this same mistake at work again. I'm so sorry. Sometimes the workplace is a shitty place to cultivate genuine friendships.
posted by jbenben at 8:06 AM on July 19, 2018 [16 favorites]
OP, in his eyes you are not a friend.
The way he is treating you is not how friends treat each other, inside or outside of work.
You are something of a love interest, or a "possibility", or some other form of female that exists in his world to meet his emotional needs. You do not have needs in his eyes; your needs are inconvenient, bothersome, unwelcome, brutal.
He is rejecting you in these ways because you have reflected him back to himself in a way that he deems to be incorrect according to his needs (ie, you are supposed to be boosting his self-esteem whenever he presents himself in front of you, regardless of what is going on with you at the moment). You are supposed to laugh when he tells light-hearted jokes so that he can think of himself as light-hearted and funny. You are supposed to praise him when he talks about his projects so that he can think of himself as smart / professional / creative / clever, etc.
I do not report to him now, but it's entirely possible that I may have to in the future
Jesus Christ, start sending your resume out now.
posted by vignettist at 8:10 AM on July 19, 2018 [27 favorites]
The way he is treating you is not how friends treat each other, inside or outside of work.
You are something of a love interest, or a "possibility", or some other form of female that exists in his world to meet his emotional needs. You do not have needs in his eyes; your needs are inconvenient, bothersome, unwelcome, brutal.
He is rejecting you in these ways because you have reflected him back to himself in a way that he deems to be incorrect according to his needs (ie, you are supposed to be boosting his self-esteem whenever he presents himself in front of you, regardless of what is going on with you at the moment). You are supposed to laugh when he tells light-hearted jokes so that he can think of himself as light-hearted and funny. You are supposed to praise him when he talks about his projects so that he can think of himself as smart / professional / creative / clever, etc.
I do not report to him now, but it's entirely possible that I may have to in the future
Jesus Christ, start sending your resume out now.
posted by vignettist at 8:10 AM on July 19, 2018 [27 favorites]
Yes, if you ever do have to report to him, he's already shown you what kind of boss he will be: petty, capricious, inappropriate, and vengeful. Avoid this scenario in any way you can.
I do have some people I consider good work friends (men and women). Not one has ever, EVER treated me in a similar circumstance like this guy has treated you. It's unconscionable. And I absolutely agree with people implying there's no way he'd treat you this way if you were a man.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 8:18 AM on July 19, 2018 [18 favorites]
I do have some people I consider good work friends (men and women). Not one has ever, EVER treated me in a similar circumstance like this guy has treated you. It's unconscionable. And I absolutely agree with people implying there's no way he'd treat you this way if you were a man.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 8:18 AM on July 19, 2018 [18 favorites]
I am highly pro-work friendships. If I have to spend a large portion of my waking life at work, it would feel deeply dehumanizing to me to have no true friends in that environment. I've had strong and long-lasting friendships with male and female coworkers.
Even coming from that place, I do not think you are taking good care of yourself by being "friends" with this particular guy. He is not treating you the way a friend would treat you. He's treating you the way a really shitty boyfriend would treat you. In neither of the situations you described above did you do something wrong - and even if you want to say that we just don't understand the full context and that you really DID do something wrong, his reactions are not the mature and kind reactions you'd expect of a friend who felt wronged.
Have you ever been hurt by a friend? Did you publicly sulk and shut them out and punish them until they came crawling back to apologize? I'm guessing that the answer is no, at least after 5th grade or so - because that is not how adults treat someone they like. That is how they treat someone they're using to feed their own gross little power rushes.
Please distance yourself from this guy. Every time you apologize to him, every time you play this bullshit game of cajoling, probing, and begging him to tell you what's "wrong" so you can have the opportunity to apologize to him needlessly, he sees it as validation that this is how he can and should treat you. Let him snit as long as he chooses to. If that is "forever," the only thing you're really losing is the chance to coddle and mollify him even more in the future.
Document this shit, don't force yourself to appease him today out of fear of what may or may not happen in your workplace tomorrow - and if you're up for it, start reaching out to other people at work or elsewhere who are actually worthy of your friendship.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:21 AM on July 19, 2018 [12 favorites]
Even coming from that place, I do not think you are taking good care of yourself by being "friends" with this particular guy. He is not treating you the way a friend would treat you. He's treating you the way a really shitty boyfriend would treat you. In neither of the situations you described above did you do something wrong - and even if you want to say that we just don't understand the full context and that you really DID do something wrong, his reactions are not the mature and kind reactions you'd expect of a friend who felt wronged.
Have you ever been hurt by a friend? Did you publicly sulk and shut them out and punish them until they came crawling back to apologize? I'm guessing that the answer is no, at least after 5th grade or so - because that is not how adults treat someone they like. That is how they treat someone they're using to feed their own gross little power rushes.
Please distance yourself from this guy. Every time you apologize to him, every time you play this bullshit game of cajoling, probing, and begging him to tell you what's "wrong" so you can have the opportunity to apologize to him needlessly, he sees it as validation that this is how he can and should treat you. Let him snit as long as he chooses to. If that is "forever," the only thing you're really losing is the chance to coddle and mollify him even more in the future.
Document this shit, don't force yourself to appease him today out of fear of what may or may not happen in your workplace tomorrow - and if you're up for it, start reaching out to other people at work or elsewhere who are actually worthy of your friendship.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:21 AM on July 19, 2018 [12 favorites]
And I want to be clear, when I say he's treating you the way a really shitty boyfriend would treat you, I'm not at all speculating on whether or not he's romantically or sexually interested in you. I'm saying he's putting emotional labor loads on you and treating you with the contemptuous familiarity that are more typical of a shitty boyfriend who takes for granted that his chosen object is going to put up with that shit, because they're already that enmeshed.
Disengage, disengage.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:26 AM on July 19, 2018 [18 favorites]
Disengage, disengage.
posted by DingoMutt at 8:26 AM on July 19, 2018 [18 favorites]
I finally had to ask him what was up
No you didn't.
I was baffled but I apologized, ...
Don't do that anymore.
I texted an apology for being rude five minutes later.
Don't do that anymore.
I apologized again, and now things are back to sunshine and laughter.
Don't do that anymore.
He said I must tell him about the work troubles later and that he would help.
You mustn't.
I'm ready and willing to apologize if I even unwittingly hurt someone.
Don't do that.
What chops my onion
I love this phrase and am stealing it.
If he minds it every time I say I cannot talk, or cannot take a break at the same time... how does one address or fix that, especially since the other party just simmers in resentful silence?
You don't address or fix someone else's emotional response to your words/actions, in your personal life and *especially* in your professional life. Whether he behaves like one or not (he does not), he is an adult and responsible for his own words/actions.
You have taught this guy that you accept responsibility for his immature, unprofessional brattiness. Don't do that anymore.
I do not report to him now, but it's entirely possible that I may have to in the future, so burning bridges is emphatically not a possibility.
Please do everything in your power to never have to report to this person.
posted by headnsouth at 8:39 AM on July 19, 2018 [28 favorites]
No you didn't.
I was baffled but I apologized, ...
Don't do that anymore.
I texted an apology for being rude five minutes later.
Don't do that anymore.
I apologized again, and now things are back to sunshine and laughter.
Don't do that anymore.
He said I must tell him about the work troubles later and that he would help.
You mustn't.
I'm ready and willing to apologize if I even unwittingly hurt someone.
Don't do that.
What chops my onion
I love this phrase and am stealing it.
If he minds it every time I say I cannot talk, or cannot take a break at the same time... how does one address or fix that, especially since the other party just simmers in resentful silence?
You don't address or fix someone else's emotional response to your words/actions, in your personal life and *especially* in your professional life. Whether he behaves like one or not (he does not), he is an adult and responsible for his own words/actions.
You have taught this guy that you accept responsibility for his immature, unprofessional brattiness. Don't do that anymore.
I do not report to him now, but it's entirely possible that I may have to in the future, so burning bridges is emphatically not a possibility.
Please do everything in your power to never have to report to this person.
posted by headnsouth at 8:39 AM on July 19, 2018 [28 favorites]
OK, if this was just some dude, or even a mere peer at work, I would be enthusiastically signing on to the advice about ghosting on him. It's not that I don't agree with the analyses of the dynamic, or at least the potential dynamic.
However, having been in some of these intense work environments where you spend a ton of time around each other, I have to say that people acting as if you can just cut this guy off or stiff-arm him away without consequences the way you could a (sane) guy at a Meetup or date are being much too optimistic. This guy is going to be around for a while and it sounds as if he wields more power than the OP, and that she is used to taking advantage of some resources he has. This is not a person you want to unnecessarily alienate or offend. Regardless of whether he deserves it.
Step one: emotionally disentangle yourself from this guy. You may have to deal with him because of the work situation, but accept that he can be quite unreasonable and you shouldn't let yourself get caught up emotionally in his judgments on you, because they're not fair. This is tricky, but gaining your own emotional independence is vital here.
Step two: discretion. Stop telling him anything that would make you vulnerable if he decided to turn on you. do not confess mistakes. Do not talk any smack about your fellow-employees or (god forbid) supervisors. No venting.
Step three: work on cultivating other sources of power and influence at work, if you haven't already. This guy can't be your rabbi anymore.
Step four: cut back on your initiation of social engagement, but continue to respond to his. Basically, look at this as relationship management rather than a friendship. Do the minimum to maintain. If he gets mad, you should respond in a more matter-of-fact way. Apologize once, not more than. Avoid being either curt or effusive.
Guys like this tend to latch onto "work wives" serially, so a very slow and gentle distancing may well lead to his picking up on someone else. You can't totally avoid the possibility of his flipping out on you (do your level best to avoid having him as your supervisor), but the goal is to separate as unnoticeably as possible.
posted by praemunire at 9:10 AM on July 19, 2018 [23 favorites]
However, having been in some of these intense work environments where you spend a ton of time around each other, I have to say that people acting as if you can just cut this guy off or stiff-arm him away without consequences the way you could a (sane) guy at a Meetup or date are being much too optimistic. This guy is going to be around for a while and it sounds as if he wields more power than the OP, and that she is used to taking advantage of some resources he has. This is not a person you want to unnecessarily alienate or offend. Regardless of whether he deserves it.
Step one: emotionally disentangle yourself from this guy. You may have to deal with him because of the work situation, but accept that he can be quite unreasonable and you shouldn't let yourself get caught up emotionally in his judgments on you, because they're not fair. This is tricky, but gaining your own emotional independence is vital here.
Step two: discretion. Stop telling him anything that would make you vulnerable if he decided to turn on you. do not confess mistakes. Do not talk any smack about your fellow-employees or (god forbid) supervisors. No venting.
Step three: work on cultivating other sources of power and influence at work, if you haven't already. This guy can't be your rabbi anymore.
Step four: cut back on your initiation of social engagement, but continue to respond to his. Basically, look at this as relationship management rather than a friendship. Do the minimum to maintain. If he gets mad, you should respond in a more matter-of-fact way. Apologize once, not more than. Avoid being either curt or effusive.
Guys like this tend to latch onto "work wives" serially, so a very slow and gentle distancing may well lead to his picking up on someone else. You can't totally avoid the possibility of his flipping out on you (do your level best to avoid having him as your supervisor), but the goal is to separate as unnoticeably as possible.
posted by praemunire at 9:10 AM on July 19, 2018 [23 favorites]
I've worked for two decades years in male-dominated environments (always the only female software engineer in an all-male team). What I've come to realize is... you know those studies that say that women's facial expressions are perceived to be a lot more negative than they actually are? Turns out they are not some theoretical musings, they are an accurate description of what actually happens.
Your (sexist, although probably entirely unbeknownst to himself) co-worker has the following internal "conversion chart" for women's facial expressions:
smiling = neutral
neutral = upset
upset = angry
angry = exploding with rage
Now, what to do about that? Personally, I would ask co-worker for a one-on-one in the office. DO NOT APOLOGIZE. Tell him you need him to listen before jumping in. Open with "I want to talk about the recent incident re. gifts". Explain briefly the situation where he caught you in the moment of stress and you just needed a few minutes alone to compose yourself, just as you told us here. Say it was unfortunate that he took it so personally but that it was doubly unfortunate that he felt the need to escalate it to where he publicly humiliated you by snubbing you on the gifts. Don't let him argue that it's entirely up to him whom he chooses to give presents to - gift giving is highly signaling when done in an office environment in everyone's presence (*). I would then segue into potential sexism. Yes, you can never be sure what is going on in someone's head, but when it comes to interpreting a minor upset on your part as "brutal", it can certainly look as sexism. If he tries to weasel out (and I am sure he will, with earnest offense) then lob it right back at him. If not sexism, then what caused him to interpret your slightly upset face as brutal? And what about the other incidents? Let him explain it!
Is this a good strategy? I don't know. It may be a wake up call for him, or it may cause him to double down. Methinks your friendship is already compromised so you have nothing to lose but potentially something to gain. The way you've described him here, I think you have reason to be optimistic.
(*) One time I had a boss who made a big deal out of handing out toy figurines during my company's big Christmas dinner. People got super heroes, kings, queens, etc. You know what I got? A hideous mutant, sworn enemy of Aqua Man! It was so heinous that when I tried giving it to my kid he burst into tears and ran away and wouldn't let me touch him for an hour. Needless to say I am team "office gift giving snubs are slimy and cowardly".
posted by rada at 9:13 AM on July 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
Your (sexist, although probably entirely unbeknownst to himself) co-worker has the following internal "conversion chart" for women's facial expressions:
smiling = neutral
neutral = upset
upset = angry
angry = exploding with rage
Now, what to do about that? Personally, I would ask co-worker for a one-on-one in the office. DO NOT APOLOGIZE. Tell him you need him to listen before jumping in. Open with "I want to talk about the recent incident re. gifts". Explain briefly the situation where he caught you in the moment of stress and you just needed a few minutes alone to compose yourself, just as you told us here. Say it was unfortunate that he took it so personally but that it was doubly unfortunate that he felt the need to escalate it to where he publicly humiliated you by snubbing you on the gifts. Don't let him argue that it's entirely up to him whom he chooses to give presents to - gift giving is highly signaling when done in an office environment in everyone's presence (*). I would then segue into potential sexism. Yes, you can never be sure what is going on in someone's head, but when it comes to interpreting a minor upset on your part as "brutal", it can certainly look as sexism. If he tries to weasel out (and I am sure he will, with earnest offense) then lob it right back at him. If not sexism, then what caused him to interpret your slightly upset face as brutal? And what about the other incidents? Let him explain it!
Is this a good strategy? I don't know. It may be a wake up call for him, or it may cause him to double down. Methinks your friendship is already compromised so you have nothing to lose but potentially something to gain. The way you've described him here, I think you have reason to be optimistic.
(*) One time I had a boss who made a big deal out of handing out toy figurines during my company's big Christmas dinner. People got super heroes, kings, queens, etc. You know what I got? A hideous mutant, sworn enemy of Aqua Man! It was so heinous that when I tried giving it to my kid he burst into tears and ran away and wouldn't let me touch him for an hour. Needless to say I am team "office gift giving snubs are slimy and cowardly".
posted by rada at 9:13 AM on July 19, 2018 [6 favorites]
I don't necessarily see that he's romantically interested, though that is one avenue, but he's definitely treating you like a "work wife" and unfortunately his outbursts are veering inappropriately towards how you would vent at a personal friend, not a professional friend. And I do think there's a distinction.
A few years ago I worked with a 'professional friend' who was my coworker and then became my boss. We were friendly, and definitely 'work spouses' in some way, but we also had very clear boundaries. For example, while he was interviewing to become my boss, at least one of our coworkers implied that certainly I had insider info about how the interview/selection was going, because we were so friendly. But I didn't have any info, because Boss and I mutually did not discuss the interview process at all - because while personal friends would of course discuss something like that, professional friends understand that you are colleagues first, at least/especially on the clock. And colleagues don't gossip about the interview process.
Slow fade this 'friendship'. Let him simmer. Next time he gives you the silent treatment, acknowledge him politely at work but let him break it otherwise. If he forces a confrontation, there is nothing wrong with politely saying "I enjoy chatting with you but I can't apologize for putting my work first."
Something about your phrasing - "chummy, sunshine, laughter" etc - also kind of gives me the vibe that this dude expected you to be his Office Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Does that resonate at all for you?
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
A few years ago I worked with a 'professional friend' who was my coworker and then became my boss. We were friendly, and definitely 'work spouses' in some way, but we also had very clear boundaries. For example, while he was interviewing to become my boss, at least one of our coworkers implied that certainly I had insider info about how the interview/selection was going, because we were so friendly. But I didn't have any info, because Boss and I mutually did not discuss the interview process at all - because while personal friends would of course discuss something like that, professional friends understand that you are colleagues first, at least/especially on the clock. And colleagues don't gossip about the interview process.
Slow fade this 'friendship'. Let him simmer. Next time he gives you the silent treatment, acknowledge him politely at work but let him break it otherwise. If he forces a confrontation, there is nothing wrong with politely saying "I enjoy chatting with you but I can't apologize for putting my work first."
Something about your phrasing - "chummy, sunshine, laughter" etc - also kind of gives me the vibe that this dude expected you to be his Office Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Does that resonate at all for you?
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2018 [5 favorites]
It does not sound like he is being a good friend OR a good colleague here. A good friend wouldn't stomp off in a huff and tone police you when you were clearly upset and a good colleague wouldn't stomp off in a huff if you said you needed to get back to work. Because, y'know, you're both at WORK. That's sort of the point of you both being there in the first place.
Sometimes if I don't feel like going through the mental gymnastics of nicely asking a particularly oblivious but well-meaning colleague to please vacate my office so I could get back to work, I invent a fake meeting or webinar that I need to get to so I'd have a more time-sensitive reason for telling them to scram. This usually worked where my non-verbal and even verbal ("well, I gotta get back to this...") attempts weren't landing well.
That said, I only really do this for co-workers I don't know that well and don't have a rapport with. It's more than a little bogus that you feel like you can't say, "Well R, it's been real, but I really need to get back on this TPS report," to your allegedly friendly colleague without him having a shit fit about it.
Agree with the others above: whether there's a romantic element or not, it seems like he has specific expectations for the types of interactions he wants from you, and when you go against them in any way and for any reason, he feels justified in reacting as if he's been personally wronged by you when, really, you've just reminded him that you're an autonomous human with a job to do and you don't merely exist for his amusement. This is very much a "shitty boyfriend" trope.
Personally, I'd work on cordially disengaging from this dude. He clearly doesn't have your best interests at heart or he wouldn't be continually assuming that your job is not important enough to take precedence over a conversation with a colleague. Because, to be clear: that is EXACTLY what he is doing every time he comes over to shoot the shit and then pouts and stomps off when you tell him you can't talk right now. You've been more than accommodating here, and he's being a jerk.
If, however, you really do want to try to salvage this relationship and set new boundaries, I'd maybe meet for coffee somewhere and lay it all out for him. Let him know that you like the rapport that you have, but that ultimately, you're at WORK, and you need to be able to feel like you can say, "Hey, I gotta get back to this" or "Hey, I can't talk right now" without it being a Big Damn Deal. How he reacts here will be very telling. Honestly though, this might not even be worth it, especially if he's been as capricious as you say and is in line to potentially be your boss at this organization down the road. I'm all in favor of a graceful slow fade and documenting the hell out of any future unfavorable interactions.
posted by helloimjennsco at 9:19 AM on July 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
Sometimes if I don't feel like going through the mental gymnastics of nicely asking a particularly oblivious but well-meaning colleague to please vacate my office so I could get back to work, I invent a fake meeting or webinar that I need to get to so I'd have a more time-sensitive reason for telling them to scram. This usually worked where my non-verbal and even verbal ("well, I gotta get back to this...") attempts weren't landing well.
That said, I only really do this for co-workers I don't know that well and don't have a rapport with. It's more than a little bogus that you feel like you can't say, "Well R, it's been real, but I really need to get back on this TPS report," to your allegedly friendly colleague without him having a shit fit about it.
Agree with the others above: whether there's a romantic element or not, it seems like he has specific expectations for the types of interactions he wants from you, and when you go against them in any way and for any reason, he feels justified in reacting as if he's been personally wronged by you when, really, you've just reminded him that you're an autonomous human with a job to do and you don't merely exist for his amusement. This is very much a "shitty boyfriend" trope.
Personally, I'd work on cordially disengaging from this dude. He clearly doesn't have your best interests at heart or he wouldn't be continually assuming that your job is not important enough to take precedence over a conversation with a colleague. Because, to be clear: that is EXACTLY what he is doing every time he comes over to shoot the shit and then pouts and stomps off when you tell him you can't talk right now. You've been more than accommodating here, and he's being a jerk.
If, however, you really do want to try to salvage this relationship and set new boundaries, I'd maybe meet for coffee somewhere and lay it all out for him. Let him know that you like the rapport that you have, but that ultimately, you're at WORK, and you need to be able to feel like you can say, "Hey, I gotta get back to this" or "Hey, I can't talk right now" without it being a Big Damn Deal. How he reacts here will be very telling. Honestly though, this might not even be worth it, especially if he's been as capricious as you say and is in line to potentially be your boss at this organization down the road. I'm all in favor of a graceful slow fade and documenting the hell out of any future unfavorable interactions.
posted by helloimjennsco at 9:19 AM on July 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I highly highly second praemunire's advice. I think that once you accept that he is not your real friend, and that he has been rather openly manipulating you, you will start to see all your interactions in this new light and it will be easier for you to emotionally disentangle yourself.
If you remain on this trajectory, he is going to burn you, and he is going to burn you really bad, to protect himself and his own career. He has already publicly burned you for no real reason, imagine what he will do if his back is ever against the wall.
posted by muddgirl at 9:41 AM on July 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you remain on this trajectory, he is going to burn you, and he is going to burn you really bad, to protect himself and his own career. He has already publicly burned you for no real reason, imagine what he will do if his back is ever against the wall.
posted by muddgirl at 9:41 AM on July 19, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think my question is more about how I manage my own feelings of distress at these situations than anything else.
Two suggestions:
1. Recognize that your distress probably stems in part from the fact that you know you shouldn't have perform these appeasements. You're not being kind to yourself when you apologize for spurious reasons just to make someone else stop treating you meanly. I think you're going to feel less distressed in the long run if you act in accordance to your own worth and values (stop apologizing, start recognizing this person is not treating you like a friend).
2. Having said that, acknowledge that it really does suck to find out that someone you thought was a friend is actually treating you terribly. Of course it's disappointing, especially when there are things you have in common and you enjoy your time with them when things are "sunshine and laughter." That really sucks! But I think this situation is, at best, a poop milkshake (really it sounds more like a shit parfait to me (at least equal parts shit and good stuff), but let's stick with the preferred Metafilter analogy here). It sucks when something you really were enjoying becomes or is found to be contaminated. Acknowledge that, feel bad about that, vent to your real friends about that - but still respond accordingly to the contamination. Don't keep drinking it.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:42 AM on July 19, 2018 [10 favorites]
Two suggestions:
1. Recognize that your distress probably stems in part from the fact that you know you shouldn't have perform these appeasements. You're not being kind to yourself when you apologize for spurious reasons just to make someone else stop treating you meanly. I think you're going to feel less distressed in the long run if you act in accordance to your own worth and values (stop apologizing, start recognizing this person is not treating you like a friend).
2. Having said that, acknowledge that it really does suck to find out that someone you thought was a friend is actually treating you terribly. Of course it's disappointing, especially when there are things you have in common and you enjoy your time with them when things are "sunshine and laughter." That really sucks! But I think this situation is, at best, a poop milkshake (really it sounds more like a shit parfait to me (at least equal parts shit and good stuff), but let's stick with the preferred Metafilter analogy here). It sucks when something you really were enjoying becomes or is found to be contaminated. Acknowledge that, feel bad about that, vent to your real friends about that - but still respond accordingly to the contamination. Don't keep drinking it.
posted by DingoMutt at 9:42 AM on July 19, 2018 [10 favorites]
He is hugely overreacting to normal social and work stuff because of some problem he has regulating his emotions and behavior. Or he's into you. Little of both? If it's not romantic, he seems to want way more from you than you do from him.
I'm worried he seems to ascribe bad faith and bad intentions to your normal adult behavior. It's incredibly immature and just mean to conspicuously exclude you from souvenir time-- even if you had somehow wronged him. He can't tell you what's up, he has to create some melodrama so you have to tease out the real reason? Life Friends and Work Friends can have conflicts, but they talk them through like adults.
If you must maintain things with him, practice emotional detachment. Don't get wrapped up in his overreactions and displays. See him as a baby, which someone who STOMPS AWAY AT WORK is. What's the alternative to detachment? Being at his complete beck and call, faking constant cheer, throwing yourself at his feet when you break another of his unwritten rules because you have work to do?? Ugh I'm fuming for you.
posted by kapers at 12:22 PM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm worried he seems to ascribe bad faith and bad intentions to your normal adult behavior. It's incredibly immature and just mean to conspicuously exclude you from souvenir time-- even if you had somehow wronged him. He can't tell you what's up, he has to create some melodrama so you have to tease out the real reason? Life Friends and Work Friends can have conflicts, but they talk them through like adults.
If you must maintain things with him, practice emotional detachment. Don't get wrapped up in his overreactions and displays. See him as a baby, which someone who STOMPS AWAY AT WORK is. What's the alternative to detachment? Being at his complete beck and call, faking constant cheer, throwing yourself at his feet when you break another of his unwritten rules because you have work to do?? Ugh I'm fuming for you.
posted by kapers at 12:22 PM on July 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Another thought: you mentioned you were tearful over a work thing. Is it possible the whole professional environment at your job is toxic/sucks for women?
posted by kapers at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2018
posted by kapers at 12:26 PM on July 19, 2018
I'm on the same page as praemunire. The ideal answer is, this is bullshit behavior that you shouldn't have to put up with; it is on him to manage his feelings better than this; and you should just move on and let him get over it.
But we don't live in the ideal world; we live in capitalism. So your approach needs to manage that risk. You know this guy is sensitive and touchy, and vengeful when he feels slighted. And he might end up with power over you? Dangerous. I think you want to back away realllllly slowly, while assuaging his ego, and then do something else to maintain some sense of being special friends, while not setting up expectations you can't meet. Would it work to be far too busy to ever chat within the normal 9-5, occasionally reaching out in an apologetic and wistful "I'm sorry I'm never able to talk, but things are cray-zee," and then suggesting an alternative, like a once a month lunch to catch up? I think if you're proactively offering something, rather than just doing a slow fade, he'll be less likely to see this as an affront? (I don't want to act like you can totally control how he feels. You may do your very best, and he still might be unrealistic and entitled and jerky. But this seems like it might be a reasonable level of effort to try to head that off.)
I've presented this as though it would be totally disingenuous and strategic. But on a more positive note, it does sound like you kinda like the guy, if only he didn't have these unrealistic expectations (and a related tendency to get butthurt) about your availability. Maybe if you taught him that your relationship would fit into This Box, misunderstandings and hurt feelings would be less likely to happen, and then you could get to enjoy the good things about your relationship? Well anyway, good luck!
posted by salvia at 5:05 PM on July 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
But we don't live in the ideal world; we live in capitalism. So your approach needs to manage that risk. You know this guy is sensitive and touchy, and vengeful when he feels slighted. And he might end up with power over you? Dangerous. I think you want to back away realllllly slowly, while assuaging his ego, and then do something else to maintain some sense of being special friends, while not setting up expectations you can't meet. Would it work to be far too busy to ever chat within the normal 9-5, occasionally reaching out in an apologetic and wistful "I'm sorry I'm never able to talk, but things are cray-zee," and then suggesting an alternative, like a once a month lunch to catch up? I think if you're proactively offering something, rather than just doing a slow fade, he'll be less likely to see this as an affront? (I don't want to act like you can totally control how he feels. You may do your very best, and he still might be unrealistic and entitled and jerky. But this seems like it might be a reasonable level of effort to try to head that off.)
I've presented this as though it would be totally disingenuous and strategic. But on a more positive note, it does sound like you kinda like the guy, if only he didn't have these unrealistic expectations (and a related tendency to get butthurt) about your availability. Maybe if you taught him that your relationship would fit into This Box, misunderstandings and hurt feelings would be less likely to happen, and then you could get to enjoy the good things about your relationship? Well anyway, good luck!
posted by salvia at 5:05 PM on July 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
This really sucks and I'm sorry this happened to you. It's understandable and appropriate to go through a grieving process for not only the friendship that you thought you had, but the person you thought this guy was. Having gone through this process a couple of times, once I was on the other end of it, it became very natural and automatic to respond to the coworker in a way that was strictly professional and nothing more. By that I mean identifying what needs to get done and interacting with this person in a professional way to get the tasks done and goals met, while also limiting my interactions with this person to only the extent needed. Disengaging as much as reasonably possible is an important component of protecting yourself from toxic people.
That's really all your job requires. You don't have to be friends with the people that you work with or even really like them all that much to get your jobs done and value each other's contributions. If you get backlash, that's straightforward to document in case you ever need it to defend yourself. In my experience, if the office culture is reasonably healthy and functional, things won't get to that point. If it does, it sounds cavalier to say "find a new job", but that would be an indicator that the office culture is very dysfunctional, and that is a good reason to start looking for something else.
posted by jazzbaby at 7:44 AM on July 20, 2018
That's really all your job requires. You don't have to be friends with the people that you work with or even really like them all that much to get your jobs done and value each other's contributions. If you get backlash, that's straightforward to document in case you ever need it to defend yourself. In my experience, if the office culture is reasonably healthy and functional, things won't get to that point. If it does, it sounds cavalier to say "find a new job", but that would be an indicator that the office culture is very dysfunctional, and that is a good reason to start looking for something else.
posted by jazzbaby at 7:44 AM on July 20, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
I would not apologize when you have nothing to apologize for because that just enables him to be emotionally immature. I would just be like, "get back to me when you can stop being so damn sensitive about things that don't concern you" and just keep on keeping on if he sulks. It sucks, I know, but he's being manipulative and that's not OK.
Edited to add: on further consideration, there may be more gendered power dynamics at your workplace than mine; this would fly in my industry but if you'd be punished for not tolerating it, then you might have to play along to get along and so as to not tank your career. If that's the case, then I am super-sorry and you might be stuck with this dynamic.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 6:30 AM on July 19, 2018 [5 favorites]