A Tricky Question About Consent
June 24, 2018 2:59 PM Subscribe
Would consent still be considered valid if given before a person gets drunk specifically for something?
My lady-friend recently expressed a desire for us to perform certain sexual act in bed. While at first I was okay with this, she then told me she planned to get drunk prior due to her own reasoning regarding the action. However, I'm the sort of person who looks at someone being drunk and goes "Nope, can't give consent while drunk." I expressed this to her, to her surprise, and she said to me how she would be consenting to it before getting drunk.
On a moral level, would it alright to accept this? If she asks me to stop I will, but would proceeding in any regard be okay if she truly is consenting prior to drinking and is only drinking because of the specific act?
My lady-friend recently expressed a desire for us to perform certain sexual act in bed. While at first I was okay with this, she then told me she planned to get drunk prior due to her own reasoning regarding the action. However, I'm the sort of person who looks at someone being drunk and goes "Nope, can't give consent while drunk." I expressed this to her, to her surprise, and she said to me how she would be consenting to it before getting drunk.
On a moral level, would it alright to accept this? If she asks me to stop I will, but would proceeding in any regard be okay if she truly is consenting prior to drinking and is only drinking because of the specific act?
I believe that arrangements can be made between people if they have enough relationship scaffolding of some kind to support the communication necessary to make an arrangement. I also agree that there's a difference between "woohoo!" intoxication/altered state and "flurmle murb *yark*" wasted, and if the person in question is aiming for woohoo and experienced enough with their intoxicant to know how to get to woohoo and no further (and you feel confident you also recognize the difference, which is easy to do with some people and really difficult with others), that's a thing consenting adults can do and maintain a throughline of consent.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:15 PM on June 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 3:15 PM on June 24, 2018 [13 favorites]
I've done this, actually. Someone proposed a one-night stand, I said "sure, just let me get a drink or two in me", I had... probably quite a bit more than that, and we went home together. It was fine, I felt good about it, no regrets - although in hindsight and fifteen years later, I don't think I'd be willing to be the other person in that situation.
I think where I'd go in your situation is a frank discussion of what "drunk" means here. Tipsy and giggly? That seems fine to me. Staggering and slurring? That seems over the line for communicating effectively, and also is not sexy. So yeah, I think this is genuinely tricky and may need some false starts and lots of communication. Remember, you also get to choose whether or not to consent.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:16 PM on June 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think where I'd go in your situation is a frank discussion of what "drunk" means here. Tipsy and giggly? That seems fine to me. Staggering and slurring? That seems over the line for communicating effectively, and also is not sexy. So yeah, I think this is genuinely tricky and may need some false starts and lots of communication. Remember, you also get to choose whether or not to consent.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:16 PM on June 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
It's okay for you to say "I'm not comfortable with this."
posted by hoyland at 3:16 PM on June 24, 2018 [102 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 3:16 PM on June 24, 2018 [102 favorites]
Is the act potentially painful or uncomfortable, either on accident or on purpose? For example, anal sex for the first time, spanking, etc. Alcohol will dull the pain response and she might not be able to say stop before she gets hurt. I would definitely not tie up a drunk person, and especially not while they're lying on their back.
posted by AFABulous at 3:17 PM on June 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 3:17 PM on June 24, 2018 [14 favorites]
When I saw the part of your question above the cut I was all set to come in here to tell you that that can only be answered by the person giving consent, and, well, there's your answer.
That said, I encourage you and your partner to have a frank discussion about why she feels the need to get drunk beforehand. Is it just because she wants to loosen up a bit (emotionally and, uh, maybe physically as well)? Is being drunk part of the fantasy or part of what will make it fun for her? Or is it because it's something she doesn't actually feel enthusiastic about doing but feels she has to for some reason or another, and she wants to get drunk so she's more willing? That last one is the only thing that would raise concerns for me.
And of course you're already doing the right thing by making it clear that even though she consents now, if she asks you to stop during, you will. You should also be clear about the fact that you won't do anything more or different than she consented to while sober when she's drunk.
Finally, don't forget that you get to consent or not, too! If you're not comfortable with this even though she is, you can say no.
posted by rhiannonstone at 3:24 PM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
That said, I encourage you and your partner to have a frank discussion about why she feels the need to get drunk beforehand. Is it just because she wants to loosen up a bit (emotionally and, uh, maybe physically as well)? Is being drunk part of the fantasy or part of what will make it fun for her? Or is it because it's something she doesn't actually feel enthusiastic about doing but feels she has to for some reason or another, and she wants to get drunk so she's more willing? That last one is the only thing that would raise concerns for me.
And of course you're already doing the right thing by making it clear that even though she consents now, if she asks you to stop during, you will. You should also be clear about the fact that you won't do anything more or different than she consented to while sober when she's drunk.
Finally, don't forget that you get to consent or not, too! If you're not comfortable with this even though she is, you can say no.
posted by rhiannonstone at 3:24 PM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oh and +1000 to AFABulous's. If the activity carries any additional inherent risk, I wouldn't be comfortable doing it with someone for their first time while they were impaired.
posted by rhiannonstone at 3:30 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by rhiannonstone at 3:30 PM on June 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think it’s OK for her to want to be inebriated during sex, for any number of reasons. The big problem with being in an altered state and having sex when you’ve given prior consent isn’t the black and white idea that if you are under the influence, you are ipso facto not capable of giving consent. It’s about your reactions and communication skills getting blurred, and not having the ability to stop the situation or scene if it’s too much for her. Especially if this is her first time performing a specific act, it’s reasonable and responsible for you to insist that she not be so drunk that she is impaired, or wouldn’t be able to tell you to stop in the moment if it turns out this new thing is something she actually isn’t OK with.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 3:47 PM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 3:47 PM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
The things I had to be drunk to do were things I did not actually enjoy doing but didn't feel comfortable saying no to. Women are trained from our inception to please everyone and say yes, despite our own discomfort. I would not take her at her word, because of the specifics involved (not because women are not capable of making adult decisions, but because it's best to consider the entire scope of things).
posted by masquesoporfavor at 3:51 PM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 3:51 PM on June 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
Just to front load it - I am a multiple time victim of sexual assault, including a time when a good friend used inebriation against me (and maybe drugged me). Having said that...
I feel like this sort of thing should be treated as a kink, with all the boring talking and limits and safe words and signals and person with the upper hand understanding they are ultimately responsible for making sure everyone has a good time and feels good afterwards. If that seems too serious or you don't think that's a place you want to go with your Lady Friend, then I would decline. But, I do have a history of all the boring talking and in my nearly 11 year relationship/8yrs of marriage, this would be honestly routine for my partner and me - but we also have a base level of inebriation that we find acceptable with no extra care needed to be taken. So I guess the other part is - how often does she drink? What's her tolerance? I can put down 6 shots of liquor and still be standing, other people get drunk on 2 beers. If she had a low tolerance or didn't drink often, I'd also probably say no.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:58 PM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
I feel like this sort of thing should be treated as a kink, with all the boring talking and limits and safe words and signals and person with the upper hand understanding they are ultimately responsible for making sure everyone has a good time and feels good afterwards. If that seems too serious or you don't think that's a place you want to go with your Lady Friend, then I would decline. But, I do have a history of all the boring talking and in my nearly 11 year relationship/8yrs of marriage, this would be honestly routine for my partner and me - but we also have a base level of inebriation that we find acceptable with no extra care needed to be taken. So I guess the other part is - how often does she drink? What's her tolerance? I can put down 6 shots of liquor and still be standing, other people get drunk on 2 beers. If she had a low tolerance or didn't drink often, I'd also probably say no.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:58 PM on June 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
My feeling is that given that she is the one proposing this, and given that she can still withdraw her consent at any time, and assuming that she's not planning to get truly wasted, it's fine as long as you take more-than-normal care not to hurt her (you have extra responsibility there because she may be slower to realize if she's being hurt). Also, if the whole thing just makes you uncomfortable then obviously you're not obligated to oblige.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:48 PM on June 24, 2018
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:48 PM on June 24, 2018
It sounds like you don't want to do this while she is drunk, and you're allowed to refuse for that reason. You're also allowed to insist that she gain some experience with this act while sober first.
Also, from a more pragmatic angle: If only one of you is drunk, and she later regrets the experience, you will be perceived as much more culpable than she, especially if you are a man.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:01 PM on June 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, from a more pragmatic angle: If only one of you is drunk, and she later regrets the experience, you will be perceived as much more culpable than she, especially if you are a man.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:01 PM on June 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just because she consents, doesn't mean you have to. A lady friend of mine expressed interest in surprise sleep sex which I wasn't cool with, so it didn't happen. Respect yourself & others.
posted by TheAdamist at 7:29 PM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by TheAdamist at 7:29 PM on June 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don’t think it’s practical for there to be a blanket ban on all drunk sex. For some people, being a little drunk is the only way to get loosened up physically and mentally. I think if you know your lady friend well enough to know if she’s in a good place when the time comes then you’re fine. If you don’t think she’s in a good place then you are free to say no. Of course you’re also free to say no right now if that makes you more comfortable. I just don’t think in the real world between loving partners who know each other well there needs to be a blanket ban on drunk sex in particular for consent reasons.
posted by bleep at 8:19 PM on June 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 8:19 PM on June 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
To me there's no question that she is consenting. She asked for this, according to you, and she acknowledged ahead of time she wanted to drink to loosen up her inhibitions, which is a legitimate use of alcohol. If you had pushed her into this, she said yes, and then said she planned to get drunk, I'd say hell no, but you say she was the who proposed the idea in the first place. So, while I agree you shouldn't take advantage of drunk people because there are murky lines with consent, this is not really that situation. That said, if you're still uncomfortable, you don't have to do it. You could also consider using a safe word.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:45 PM on June 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:45 PM on June 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
You've asked about consent on a moral level, but you should be thinking about it on a legal level too. (I am not a lawyer). Legally, your risk is that she decides after the fact to charge you with some type of assault, and you want to beat the assault charge. Your risk is greater if there's other things that would make this seem like assault (Would this sex act leave bruises on her body? Would it take place somewhere someone might see or overhear and report that she didn't seem to be enjoying herself? Are you a man and she's a woman? Is this a fairly new relationship? Etc.) Finally, consent is all well and good, but for it to help you legally, you'd have to convince someone else that you had consent. So, a private conversation between you and the lady might not help you. I don't know what type of documentation might help you (sober video recording of consent, signed paperwork?) but things like that at least add weight to your side of the story.
PS. Thank you for wrestling with this. I imagine it removes some of the "fun" from sex, but in the long run things are better when people consider what is caring and healthy vs. selfish and hurtful.
posted by sdrawkcaSSAb at 6:07 AM on June 25, 2018
PS. Thank you for wrestling with this. I imagine it removes some of the "fun" from sex, but in the long run things are better when people consider what is caring and healthy vs. selfish and hurtful.
posted by sdrawkcaSSAb at 6:07 AM on June 25, 2018
I think one of the best answers you've received is that you're not comfortable with this and aren't giving your consent. To me, the fine line is being drunk. If your partner said, "I would love to try _____, but I am gonna need a drink first," that's way different than, "I need to be drunk to do this." A line is crossed from pleasantly relaxed to not in control. It's an important distinction. I'd be more than okay with having a drink first but crossing into one needs to be drunk to do something would be a hard no for me.
Also, it's not actually superfun to have sex with a drunk person, so that would be another pass.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 6:19 AM on June 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, it's not actually superfun to have sex with a drunk person, so that would be another pass.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 6:19 AM on June 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
How drunk? An extremely drunk, blackout drunk, person may not be able to articulate pain, horror, being totally freaked out, etc. Consent can *always* be withdrawn. Maybe she thinks she'll enjoy a sexual act, but maybe in actuality, she won't. With the caveat that if she does not consent while drunk, and that you will check, then proceed.
posted by theora55 at 10:38 AM on June 25, 2018
posted by theora55 at 10:38 AM on June 25, 2018
Also, do you want to have this sort of activity, do you feel okay about your partner needing to be drunk? You are responding to the many red flags, that's a good thing.
posted by theora55 at 10:40 AM on June 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 10:40 AM on June 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, follow your instinct. Do not do this. I don’t know what you plan to do sexually and I don’t need to know. I am a kinky person and on occasion I have had a single drink before hot fun sexy times involving something new. That is different than drunk. If your partner literally plans to get drunk (not blacking out just normally drunk), there is something wrong going on. I don’t know if it’s fear, I don’t know if it’s shame, I don’t know if it’s a reenactment of God knows what but listen to yourself and don’t do this. If this person isn’t willing to do it sober then it’s a bad idea. Also, feel free to call Dan Savage to also ask advice about this since he specializes in sex advice. Would link but I’m on my phone. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 PM on June 25, 2018
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 PM on June 25, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Weeping_angel at 3:06 PM on June 24, 2018 [17 favorites]