How can I shut down arguments with my partner about prejudiced views?
April 26, 2018 2:03 PM Subscribe
From time to time my partner expresses prejudices against travellers and gypsies that are commonly held in the UK. I dislike hearing these views aired and it would make me very uncomfortable if he repeated them in front of strangers. We have argued about this in the past, and I now feel that I do not want to argue about it in future. Is there a way I can shut down the conversation better?
We live near two pieces of open ground that travellers occasionally (once or twice a year) attempt to use as unauthorised encampments. Residents in my area express strident opposition to the threat of unauthorised encampments. When these incidents happen my partner typically expresses to me strong disapproval of the travellers' actions, the lack of arrests, and then moves on to complain that 'they' don't pay taxes, don't respect private property, and have more money to spend than they could legitimately have acquired. These are commonly held prejudices against travellers in the UK.
My partner considers that his views are justified by specific incidents that have happened near us, where fencing has been damaged badly and other incidents in the wider area he has heard of where theft has allegedly happened in connection with an unauthorised encampment. It's possible that fear of either he or I being caught up in an altercation with travellers is also driving his comments although he would be unlikely to admit to that.
My partner does not consider his views to be racist because he does not consider that he is addressing them against a group defined by their race, but by their behaviour. From previous discussions I am aware that he does not know the history of travellers (gypsies and Irish travellers) in the UK. I absolutely do consider that he is addressing his views against a marginalised group, defined primarily by their ethnic origin and way of life. I don't find those views acceptable and I don't want to hear them.
We have argued about this properly once, and in subsequent 'discussions' I have listened to his monologue, reminded him quietly that I disagree with some of the views he has expressed, and that I do not want to argue about it. By which I mean that I do not want to continue the discussion at all. This results in another monologue about how he is not racist towards travellers (because it's not about their race), that mild-mannered liberals would be frightened of 'them' if they met them in the street. Basically he knows that I think these views are prejudiced and he dislikes that and wants to argue with me about it. I do not want to have a discussion about this either.
I think he is uneducated on this topic, and unwilling to be educated and a discussion would not result in either of us shifting our position. I freely admit that I almost certainly come across as thinking I'm superior because I refuse to engage. I actually do think my views are better than his, more informed, more compassionate, more liberal, more progressive. I genuinely do not want to have a discussion on a topic where I am not open to changing my mind, and the effort of attempting to change his mind is out of proportion to my interest/abilities. I do want to signal my non-agreement with his views, otherwise I'm approving them with silience.
Is there a better way of approaching this? This is the only area I've found we differ so strongly.
We live near two pieces of open ground that travellers occasionally (once or twice a year) attempt to use as unauthorised encampments. Residents in my area express strident opposition to the threat of unauthorised encampments. When these incidents happen my partner typically expresses to me strong disapproval of the travellers' actions, the lack of arrests, and then moves on to complain that 'they' don't pay taxes, don't respect private property, and have more money to spend than they could legitimately have acquired. These are commonly held prejudices against travellers in the UK.
My partner considers that his views are justified by specific incidents that have happened near us, where fencing has been damaged badly and other incidents in the wider area he has heard of where theft has allegedly happened in connection with an unauthorised encampment. It's possible that fear of either he or I being caught up in an altercation with travellers is also driving his comments although he would be unlikely to admit to that.
My partner does not consider his views to be racist because he does not consider that he is addressing them against a group defined by their race, but by their behaviour. From previous discussions I am aware that he does not know the history of travellers (gypsies and Irish travellers) in the UK. I absolutely do consider that he is addressing his views against a marginalised group, defined primarily by their ethnic origin and way of life. I don't find those views acceptable and I don't want to hear them.
We have argued about this properly once, and in subsequent 'discussions' I have listened to his monologue, reminded him quietly that I disagree with some of the views he has expressed, and that I do not want to argue about it. By which I mean that I do not want to continue the discussion at all. This results in another monologue about how he is not racist towards travellers (because it's not about their race), that mild-mannered liberals would be frightened of 'them' if they met them in the street. Basically he knows that I think these views are prejudiced and he dislikes that and wants to argue with me about it. I do not want to have a discussion about this either.
I think he is uneducated on this topic, and unwilling to be educated and a discussion would not result in either of us shifting our position. I freely admit that I almost certainly come across as thinking I'm superior because I refuse to engage. I actually do think my views are better than his, more informed, more compassionate, more liberal, more progressive. I genuinely do not want to have a discussion on a topic where I am not open to changing my mind, and the effort of attempting to change his mind is out of proportion to my interest/abilities. I do want to signal my non-agreement with his views, otherwise I'm approving them with silience.
Is there a better way of approaching this? This is the only area I've found we differ so strongly.
Best answer: Refuse to listen. You have to basically let go of the idea of changing his mind, and let go of moving forward on this topic and then just set boundaries, refuse to engage, reinforce, repeat. If he wants to make a dealbreaker out of this, that is on him. If this were me, I would basically have one friendly and short conversation "Hey look, I love you and the life we have together. This is one of the very few points on which we disagree and are not going to change the other one's mind. I do not want to continue to have these fruitless conversations and so I am telling you know I am not going to have them. You can do what you want with this information, I would appreciate if you would respect this boundary." and then you just continue to not engage. You basically can't both have a continual "I disagree" discussion and as well not discuss the topic.
You're going to have to have some sort of what I call "loving broken record" response to him. "Hey this is that topic that I said I am not going to discuss with you, so this is me not discussing it" and physically leave the room if he won't be reasonable about it. If this is literally a single issue thing (even though, yes, I totally agree with your perspective) then you should be able to wrap this up. If, however, it's about more than that, i.e. the differences between the two of you, his need to feel that you respect these viewpoints, whatever it may be, then this may need something more interventive like couples counseling.
posted by jessamyn at 2:17 PM on April 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
You're going to have to have some sort of what I call "loving broken record" response to him. "Hey this is that topic that I said I am not going to discuss with you, so this is me not discussing it" and physically leave the room if he won't be reasonable about it. If this is literally a single issue thing (even though, yes, I totally agree with your perspective) then you should be able to wrap this up. If, however, it's about more than that, i.e. the differences between the two of you, his need to feel that you respect these viewpoints, whatever it may be, then this may need something more interventive like couples counseling.
posted by jessamyn at 2:17 PM on April 26, 2018 [16 favorites]
Have you tried: "I love you, but I don't enjoy discussing this topic with you. Can we please agree not to bring it up with one another anymore?"
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:17 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:17 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
'they' don't pay taxes, don't respect private property, and have more money to spend than they could legitimately have acquired
suppose he wont be watching the royal wedding then, will he?
In a more serious vein I guess id push on why he doesn't view these prejudices as originating in his painting a whole group with a broad brush, and I'd try to push in two directions: surely he doesn't think that all travelers engage in illicit behavior, does he? if he can agree that they don't universally break laws/threaten his world then his argument for this being behavior-based starts to fade. Similarly, are there other people or groups who may exhibit similar behaviors but with whom he doesn't take any issue? if it only bothers him/bothers him more when a specific group of people do certain things, its his views of the people not the things they do, that are driving it.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 2:22 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
suppose he wont be watching the royal wedding then, will he?
In a more serious vein I guess id push on why he doesn't view these prejudices as originating in his painting a whole group with a broad brush, and I'd try to push in two directions: surely he doesn't think that all travelers engage in illicit behavior, does he? if he can agree that they don't universally break laws/threaten his world then his argument for this being behavior-based starts to fade. Similarly, are there other people or groups who may exhibit similar behaviors but with whom he doesn't take any issue? if it only bothers him/bothers him more when a specific group of people do certain things, its his views of the people not the things they do, that are driving it.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 2:22 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: The OP is not asking how too change her partner's opinion. The question is how she can get him to stop discussing this with her at all.
OP, I suspect that you and your partner would stare at the same set of statistics and draw opposing conclusions. He'd say "look how criminal they are as a culture" and you'd say "look how excluded they are as a culture." One thing you can do with that knowledge is to simply acknowledge that the issue is incredibly complex, and ask him to simply agree to disagree so that you no longer have to debate this between you.
That isn't going to address the problem of him potentially speaking his mind in front of other people, though.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:58 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
OP, I suspect that you and your partner would stare at the same set of statistics and draw opposing conclusions. He'd say "look how criminal they are as a culture" and you'd say "look how excluded they are as a culture." One thing you can do with that knowledge is to simply acknowledge that the issue is incredibly complex, and ask him to simply agree to disagree so that you no longer have to debate this between you.
That isn't going to address the problem of him potentially speaking his mind in front of other people, though.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:58 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Best answer: "Please don't talk about travellers with me." As jessamyn says, walk away if he won't stop. Repeat as many times as needed.
This also requires that you don't talk about travellers with him. No arguing, no rebutting his views, no anything, no matter how tempting. This is no longer a topic that you discuss.
posted by lazuli at 3:04 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
This also requires that you don't talk about travellers with him. No arguing, no rebutting his views, no anything, no matter how tempting. This is no longer a topic that you discuss.
posted by lazuli at 3:04 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
My partner does not consider his views to be racist because he does not consider that he is addressing them against a group defined by their race, but by their behaviour.
Lol, sorry sis, but racists use this justification all the time because 99% of the time they don't want to understand or admit to themselves and others that they are, in fact, racist. Wiggling out with a technicality doesn't change shit.
It's bullshit. It's racist. He's racist. You are dating a racist. It's pretty unlikely that ypu will ever be able to make him shut up about his racist views and contrary to what so many people want to believe about their racist friends/family/loved ones/cohorts, there is absolutely no amount of "education" or arguing that will change his mind and show him the error of his ways until he wants to change.
You can tell him you never want to hear that shit again but he'll either double down and do it more or silently resent you and then go say racist shit to his friends or family anyways, who will still assume you agree with him. There is nothing you can do.
posted by windykites at 3:09 PM on April 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
Lol, sorry sis, but racists use this justification all the time because 99% of the time they don't want to understand or admit to themselves and others that they are, in fact, racist. Wiggling out with a technicality doesn't change shit.
It's bullshit. It's racist. He's racist. You are dating a racist. It's pretty unlikely that ypu will ever be able to make him shut up about his racist views and contrary to what so many people want to believe about their racist friends/family/loved ones/cohorts, there is absolutely no amount of "education" or arguing that will change his mind and show him the error of his ways until he wants to change.
You can tell him you never want to hear that shit again but he'll either double down and do it more or silently resent you and then go say racist shit to his friends or family anyways, who will still assume you agree with him. There is nothing you can do.
posted by windykites at 3:09 PM on April 26, 2018 [15 favorites]
”Bob, I don’t want to hear it, it makes me think less of you.”
“Bob, you sound like a Brexit voter / Mail reader / whoever he deems himself better than, when you talk like that, keep it to yourself”
posted by Iteki at 3:14 PM on April 26, 2018 [19 favorites]
“Bob, you sound like a Brexit voter / Mail reader / whoever he deems himself better than, when you talk like that, keep it to yourself”
posted by Iteki at 3:14 PM on April 26, 2018 [19 favorites]
I mean, a really effective way to never have to hear his racist bullshit again would be to dump him. That may sound extreme, but at a certain point -- do you really want to spend the rest of your life with a racist jerk?
posted by jacobian at 3:54 PM on April 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by jacobian at 3:54 PM on April 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
A combined approach seems sound. "I don't want to hear you badmouthing travellers any more. I see two possible solutions. The first is that you stop badmouthing travellers. The second that I break up with you."
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:42 PM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:42 PM on April 26, 2018 [6 favorites]
Next time he brings it up: “Hey, we’re not going to agree on this and I find it upsetting to talk about. Can we agree just not to talk about it?”
If he tries to argue about it then: “I just said I found this upsetting to talk about. Please drop it.”
If he agrees but tries to bring it up again: “ I don’t want to hear it.” [leave the room or go back to what you were doing.]
No matter what you say, there’s a good chance he will take it as criticism and experience a version of “privilege fragility” (if you’re not familiar with the concept, look up “white fragility” - sorry, on a slow phone and can’t get you a link right now). This may make him want to argue more, but this is his problem, not yours. What you can do is just state your boundaries kindly and firmly.
posted by lunasol at 5:55 PM on April 26, 2018
If he tries to argue about it then: “I just said I found this upsetting to talk about. Please drop it.”
If he agrees but tries to bring it up again: “ I don’t want to hear it.” [leave the room or go back to what you were doing.]
No matter what you say, there’s a good chance he will take it as criticism and experience a version of “privilege fragility” (if you’re not familiar with the concept, look up “white fragility” - sorry, on a slow phone and can’t get you a link right now). This may make him want to argue more, but this is his problem, not yours. What you can do is just state your boundaries kindly and firmly.
posted by lunasol at 5:55 PM on April 26, 2018
It's not racism, it's bigotry and prejudice.
Thinking longterm, do you actually want a partner unwilling to confront or have challenged his bigoted and prejudiced beliefs?
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:01 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thinking longterm, do you actually want a partner unwilling to confront or have challenged his bigoted and prejudiced beliefs?
posted by OnefortheLast at 7:01 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
"If you say so" and then walk away.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:45 PM on April 26, 2018
posted by Jacqueline at 7:45 PM on April 26, 2018
The next time he brings it up, have a one-sentence script ready. “We already know we disagree about this, and I don’t want to fight about it anymore - let’s agree not to discuss this further, because neither of us is going to change our minds.”
posted by samthemander at 7:48 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by samthemander at 7:48 PM on April 26, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think you need to sit him down and tell him, straight up, that you disagree with him and don't want to hear him talk about about it any more. That you know what his views are now, and it would be unkind of him to keep talking about something that a) doesn't affect the relationship or either of you, so which doesn't need to be said and b) you do not want to hear. Imagine if you loved horses and he hated horses. And he wouldn't stop talking about how he disliked horses and all the things that are wrong with horses, even after you told him you don't need to hear it any more. That would make him an unkind and therefore not-great boyfriend, regardless of what issue "horses" actually is (not to minimize the actual problems with his viewpoint, but even if it was something innocuous I think his behaviour would wind me up). Maybe approaching it from that angle would make him feel less defensive?
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:14 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:14 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, whilst I agree that it's prejudice, the problem with the racism angle is my husband is Irish and definitely does not see Irish Travellers as a different race from himself, and I'm not sure you could convince him that that's the case. It's a culture to him, which is a different thing.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:43 AM on April 27, 2018
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:43 AM on April 27, 2018
Irish Government now recognises them as a separate ethic group
posted by foleypt at 6:56 AM on April 27, 2018
posted by foleypt at 6:56 AM on April 27, 2018
I think samthemander has a great one sentence response. If that doesn't work, I think you need to be clear that this is not just an enjoyable debate about politics or whatever he would call it. I think you need to be very clear with him that not only do you disagree but when he insists on talking about his point of view, you get very upset because you disagree very strongly but you don't want to have a fight. Every time he talks about, you get mad at him for putting you in that position. This damages your relationship. You know that it isn't fair to him that you get are getting so angry but holding it inside but also does no good to talk about it because you know that neither one of you will change your mind. Since I'm sure he agrees that he isn't going to change his mind and you feel strongly and aren't going to change your mind the only way to avoid the repeated stress on the relationship being caused by this topic is to just not talk about it.
TL;DR: The point is to reframe this as personal - you don't want to be mad at him but you can't avoid it if he keeps taking about this. Assuming he doesn't want you mad, he can solve this by avoiding the issue.
posted by metahawk at 7:25 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
TL;DR: The point is to reframe this as personal - you don't want to be mad at him but you can't avoid it if he keeps taking about this. Assuming he doesn't want you mad, he can solve this by avoiding the issue.
posted by metahawk at 7:25 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
it would make me very uncomfortable if he repeated them in front of strangers.
You have to be prepared to stand up and walk away from him mid-sentence when he says these things if there's another person there, then. Friends and family count every bit as much as strangers.
if you aren't willing to have an endless argument you can't win and won't lose, over and over again (which isn't unreasonable of you) there is no other way. if you silently witness his outbursts without comment, you will endorse them. when the two of you are alone, you may choose to just disengage mentally and wait it out -- although physically leaving is better then, too -- but as soon as a third party enters the space you lose the option of ignoring it. you have to either say something or withdraw your tacit support for him by withdrawing your presence. warn him in advance that you will do this, and then do it.
this promises to be very awkward for you and deservedly humiliating for him. it will probably lead to a lot more fights. but it's that or leave him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:32 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
You have to be prepared to stand up and walk away from him mid-sentence when he says these things if there's another person there, then. Friends and family count every bit as much as strangers.
if you aren't willing to have an endless argument you can't win and won't lose, over and over again (which isn't unreasonable of you) there is no other way. if you silently witness his outbursts without comment, you will endorse them. when the two of you are alone, you may choose to just disengage mentally and wait it out -- although physically leaving is better then, too -- but as soon as a third party enters the space you lose the option of ignoring it. you have to either say something or withdraw your tacit support for him by withdrawing your presence. warn him in advance that you will do this, and then do it.
this promises to be very awkward for you and deservedly humiliating for him. it will probably lead to a lot more fights. but it's that or leave him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:32 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by CollectiveMind at 2:17 PM on April 26, 2018