Is this transphobic-filter
April 17, 2018 10:58 PM Subscribe
Help me think aloud around a bathroom sign my boss just installed. She asked what I thought so I told her; I'm not crazy about it, here's why, but that's just me.
It's one of these "mermaid/cenetaur/whatever, just wash your hands" signs.
It's being placed with the best of intentions, but it feels so much like "things that cishet people like" to me that I need some input. For me, that signage (also ones with unicorns, dinosaurs, aliens etc) are way too close to saying "we don't care what sort of made up thing you think you are, go you", as opposed to "this bathroom is not reserved for any specific gender". Similar to people who say "I don't care if he's black, white, green, purple, whatever".
But our visitors feelings come first, maybe young trans people would love it? The group who visit us are young adults, not specifically queer, I might like this better in a queer environment. Am I a terrible old curmudgeon? Input from trans, non-binary and gender non-conforming folks especially welcome.
It's being placed with the best of intentions, but it feels so much like "things that cishet people like" to me that I need some input. For me, that signage (also ones with unicorns, dinosaurs, aliens etc) are way too close to saying "we don't care what sort of made up thing you think you are, go you", as opposed to "this bathroom is not reserved for any specific gender". Similar to people who say "I don't care if he's black, white, green, purple, whatever".
But our visitors feelings come first, maybe young trans people would love it? The group who visit us are young adults, not specifically queer, I might like this better in a queer environment. Am I a terrible old curmudgeon? Input from trans, non-binary and gender non-conforming folks especially welcome.
You're 100% right- the "Mermaid, Centaur, Whatever" signs are dismissive and disrespectful.
Mermaids and centaurs don't exist. Trans people do exist.
Comparing real people from oppressed populations with imaginary creatures is dismissive.
(Plus- mermaids are gendered, anyway).
You're also right that it's akin to comparing real Black people with imaginary purple people- a dismissive and problematic thing to do. Here's an article about why saying "I don't care if he's Black, white, green, purple" is problematic, and here's another one.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:16 PM on April 17, 2018 [92 favorites]
Mermaids and centaurs don't exist. Trans people do exist.
Comparing real people from oppressed populations with imaginary creatures is dismissive.
(Plus- mermaids are gendered, anyway).
You're also right that it's akin to comparing real Black people with imaginary purple people- a dismissive and problematic thing to do. Here's an article about why saying "I don't care if he's Black, white, green, purple" is problematic, and here's another one.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:16 PM on April 17, 2018 [92 favorites]
These signs suck and are not cute at all.
posted by silby at 11:21 PM on April 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by silby at 11:21 PM on April 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
This sign is referring, intentionally or otherwise, to every transphobic argument that compares 'saying that you are not your assigned gender' with claiming to be a dinosaur, mermaid, toaster, etc etc
Those transphobic arguments are exhausting, not less because they are also an attempt to be funny at the expense of trans folk. I mean, thinking that you're a toaster! Hilarious, right?
Seeing this sign in an office would definitely make me wary of more humour at the expense of marginalised groups.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:36 PM on April 17, 2018 [24 favorites]
Those transphobic arguments are exhausting, not less because they are also an attempt to be funny at the expense of trans folk. I mean, thinking that you're a toaster! Hilarious, right?
Seeing this sign in an office would definitely make me wary of more humour at the expense of marginalised groups.
posted by quacks like a duck at 11:36 PM on April 17, 2018 [24 favorites]
I'm nonbinary, and have at times presented as sufficiently whatever that I've been asked to leave bathrooms because I was ~making people uncomfortable~.
These signs are...better than the BOYS/GIRLS deal that most places have, in my opinion, in that the sign being there makes me feel like I am, at least, unlikely to be told to leave the bathroom. That said, they're also sort of eye-rolling for me--clearly intended well, but it also feels sort of like the thing where a relative gives you a gift that's...you know, they're clearly trying to be kind, but the gift that they've given you isn't at all reflective of the person you are, and it feels like they're really only interested in the version of you that they've constructed, and that kinda hurts, even tho you're aware that they are, as many well-meaning cishets will point out, "making an effort"?
Those signs feel like that. I can and will assume good intent, but also cluelessness, and that the person or organization posting the sign is maybe less thoughtful and understanding than they could be about things.
posted by mishafletch at 11:36 PM on April 17, 2018 [67 favorites]
These signs are...better than the BOYS/GIRLS deal that most places have, in my opinion, in that the sign being there makes me feel like I am, at least, unlikely to be told to leave the bathroom. That said, they're also sort of eye-rolling for me--clearly intended well, but it also feels sort of like the thing where a relative gives you a gift that's...you know, they're clearly trying to be kind, but the gift that they've given you isn't at all reflective of the person you are, and it feels like they're really only interested in the version of you that they've constructed, and that kinda hurts, even tho you're aware that they are, as many well-meaning cishets will point out, "making an effort"?
Those signs feel like that. I can and will assume good intent, but also cluelessness, and that the person or organization posting the sign is maybe less thoughtful and understanding than they could be about things.
posted by mishafletch at 11:36 PM on April 17, 2018 [67 favorites]
What kind of business/organization is this, who are the typical visitors, and what does your boss think that this sign is communicating? I agree with you on this being a cringing cousin to "black, white, green, or purple" but on the other hand, humor like this can be a weirdly effective entry point for some cishet people towards a real re-evaluation of their prejudices around trans folx. Context matters a lot.
I'm cis but queer, and I am deeply sympathetic to how exhausting it is for trans people to constantly accommodate the fragile feelings of a majority who do not appreciate their own privilege. I roll my eyes in empathy at these damn signs.
posted by desuetude at 11:40 PM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm cis but queer, and I am deeply sympathetic to how exhausting it is for trans people to constantly accommodate the fragile feelings of a majority who do not appreciate their own privilege. I roll my eyes in empathy at these damn signs.
posted by desuetude at 11:40 PM on April 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Datum point of one - my mid-millennial genderqueer partner is not offended by those types of signs and generally interprets them as trying to be inclusive rather than comparing their discomfort with the concept of binary assigned at birth gender to imaginary creatures.
posted by Candleman at 11:57 PM on April 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 11:57 PM on April 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
I don't like it. It does feel dismissive. It seems to me the easier and more straight forward approach is a Male / Female signs on the restroom doors and a simple inclusive / non-discrimination statement in large type at the main entrance. No need to be cute.
posted by michswiss at 12:47 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by michswiss at 12:47 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
From various discissions I've had, I think the trans folk I know (mostly in 20-30s) find them eye-rolly at best and shitty and alienating at worst. I've never heard a friend discuss signs like this in any kind of positive light.
posted by augustimagination at 12:55 AM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 12:55 AM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've never seen one of those before and there's a power differential at work in it for me that gets on my goat (although she's not on the sign). Hard to articulate but it's a dominant group lumping everyone into one group (aptly imaginary) in the name of twee inclusiveness, as if everyone's experience is the same. It smacks of "I'm controlling the conversation here". I also dislike the glibness of 'Whatever / Just Wash Your Hands' and from a design point of view I think it's too cluttered. What do the mermaids and centaurs think though?
posted by Lilypod at 2:11 AM on April 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Lilypod at 2:11 AM on April 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
Huh, I'm NB and I would have interpreted this as "I'm a sci-fi nerd and trans-inclusive in my policies," but y'all are making me rethink the tone. Now, I'd probably read it as "I'm progressive but misguided" and I'd feel fine about it and totally safe to use your bathroom.
posted by lieber hair at 3:33 AM on April 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by lieber hair at 3:33 AM on April 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm trans. I don't interpret them as transphobic as such, but, like someone else said, eye-rolling at best and sort of cis people making noise about how progressive they are while missing the point. No one gives a shit what the sign on the door says, they want to use the bathroom without fear of harassment (or with as little as possible--I've been harassed using a gender neutral restroom).
I am a fan of the phrase "all gender restroom". I am not a particular fan of whoever thought it was a good idea to commercially produce all gender restroom signs with a pictogram that's half the "man" pictogram and half the "woman" pictogram.
If your boss is sticking "cute" signs on the door, conveying that it's a restroom without the use of English obviously isn't a priority, so just put a sign on the door that says "Restroom".
posted by hoyland at 3:38 AM on April 18, 2018 [22 favorites]
I am a fan of the phrase "all gender restroom". I am not a particular fan of whoever thought it was a good idea to commercially produce all gender restroom signs with a pictogram that's half the "man" pictogram and half the "woman" pictogram.
If your boss is sticking "cute" signs on the door, conveying that it's a restroom without the use of English obviously isn't a priority, so just put a sign on the door that says "Restroom".
posted by hoyland at 3:38 AM on April 18, 2018 [22 favorites]
If you want to offer an alternative that is both wordless and gender neutral, I would like to suggest this.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:43 AM on April 18, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:43 AM on April 18, 2018 [29 favorites]
N=1: My first reaction, if I saw this with no backstory, would not involve the transgender issue at all. I would assume that this was a sort of trying-to-be-cute/sci-fi nerdy way to say "this bathroom is for both men and women" as opposed to the traditional men's room and ladies' room setup that you often see in public places.
To my eye, the mermaid represents women and the centaur represents men. I understand intellectually that both of those mythical creatures are half one thing and half something else ... but with no context at all, that doesn't say "transgender" to me in any way. And I certainly don't think the "half/half" construct is a correct or respectful way to think about transgender people.
I personally would not assume that this sign is making any commentary about the existence of transgender people or their degree of welcome to pee there. So not only is this trying too hard and really nerd-twee, for me it's not conveying the message it sounds like your boss is aiming for. I'm not offended, I'm just rolling my eyes and shrugging.
(NB that I am also just not a fan of "cute bathroom signs" in general.)
posted by mccxxiii at 4:56 AM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
To my eye, the mermaid represents women and the centaur represents men. I understand intellectually that both of those mythical creatures are half one thing and half something else ... but with no context at all, that doesn't say "transgender" to me in any way. And I certainly don't think the "half/half" construct is a correct or respectful way to think about transgender people.
I personally would not assume that this sign is making any commentary about the existence of transgender people or their degree of welcome to pee there. So not only is this trying too hard and really nerd-twee, for me it's not conveying the message it sounds like your boss is aiming for. I'm not offended, I'm just rolling my eyes and shrugging.
(NB that I am also just not a fan of "cute bathroom signs" in general.)
posted by mccxxiii at 4:56 AM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
It comes off overly aggressive on a number of different levels, and inappropriate for the workplace. I also vote for just plain “Restrooms” sign on the outside and a “Please wash your hands”’ sign on the inside. Even the second one is a bit much unless you work in a restaurant or something.
posted by like_neon at 4:59 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 4:59 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm an old coot, and I find the sign confusing. I didn't get the point until I read the previous answers. Too cute by half.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:09 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by SemiSalt at 5:09 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm a nonbinary trans person and this would also make me uncomfortable. The type of washroom sign I most want to see would be a picture of a toilet (because that's all you really need to know) with the words "all-gender washroom". For me, the wording "all-gender" explicitly conveys that it's trans-inclusive, which I appreciate. But as you can see from the above, people's reads on this will differ.
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:10 AM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:10 AM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
I agree that that's still a binary sign. It's also terrifically confusing if you don't happen to recognize it, can't see well, and/or can't read it. I'd tolerate it at a comic book store or somewhere similar, and would indeed expect not to be hassled over my appearance given such a sign, but it's not great.
posted by teremala at 5:19 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by teremala at 5:19 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
i definitely prefer this approach to that miserable half-men's-room-symbol/half-women's-room-symbol signage, but when i have encountered these in the wild, it has generally been with a little inward sigh and a feeling similar to that voiced by others upthread: there was an attempt, and i appreciate that, but it's still a wee bit off. (at least it's not this version, which really does make me kinda uncomfortable.)
a plain 'all-gender' sign on the door plus a cute hand-drawn 'wash-your-hands!' sign in the bathroom itself -- with mermaids or whatever on it -- seems like a better way to go.
posted by halation at 5:37 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
a plain 'all-gender' sign on the door plus a cute hand-drawn 'wash-your-hands!' sign in the bathroom itself -- with mermaids or whatever on it -- seems like a better way to go.
posted by halation at 5:37 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
The intent is to signify that anyone may use this room. I'm not a big fan of cutification in general, and it diminishes the purpose of the sign, which is to inform. I would suggest that a simple sign saying gender-free, all genders, gender-neutral, etc. would be more effective.
posted by theora55 at 6:13 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 6:13 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm a nonbinary trans person, I stick out like a sore thumb in the gendered bathroom I prefer to use, and this would get a very mild eye roll from me. Like, not "this makes me mad" or "this makes me uncomfortable," not even really "this is Problematic," just "oh look, the cis people are trying to be funny, I'm sure they mean well."
Plus, like, yay explicitly gender-neutral bathroom. I'd honestly be about 95% excited about finding one of those, and only 5% rolling my eyes at the sign.
(FWIW, though, without the flip/dismissive text at the bottom, the sign would go from *meh, eyeroll* to HOLY SHIT AWESOME in my book.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:15 AM on April 18, 2018 [11 favorites]
Plus, like, yay explicitly gender-neutral bathroom. I'd honestly be about 95% excited about finding one of those, and only 5% rolling my eyes at the sign.
(FWIW, though, without the flip/dismissive text at the bottom, the sign would go from *meh, eyeroll* to HOLY SHIT AWESOME in my book.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:15 AM on April 18, 2018 [11 favorites]
I agree with what people are saying above, and I also want to say that having a cute sign invites more discussion than a boring sign, and I (a trans dude) absolutely do not want to talk about all-gender restrooms with every cis person who has an opinion about it. I don’t want to have these hand-holding and/or “taking a deep breath and being the bigger person” conversations with people who need to process how they feel about gender and a picture of a toilet and not a mermaid is really helpful in keeping the interaction limited.
It is not fun for me to speculate about why the sign went up or who might go in there or how we should feel about it, it is a chore because the dynamic is either “you’re trans, explain yourself!” or “I’m certain you are cis and therefore it’s safe to let all my gross assumptions out!” and I am simply not here for that. Pleae let the signage quietly assume that we are welcome rather than be performatively allied.
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:28 AM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
It is not fun for me to speculate about why the sign went up or who might go in there or how we should feel about it, it is a chore because the dynamic is either “you’re trans, explain yourself!” or “I’m certain you are cis and therefore it’s safe to let all my gross assumptions out!” and I am simply not here for that. Pleae let the signage quietly assume that we are welcome rather than be performatively allied.
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:28 AM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
To me (a cis woman) the sign reads as well-intentioned, but tone deaf. I think signs like this are meant to be inclusive, but they are actually very othering (being trans is not akin to being a mermaid ffs) and would best be replaced with a simple "All Genders" or "Gender-Neutral" type sign.
If this sign went up in my office I would absolutely say something and ask that it be replaced, but I would approach the conversation with Hanlon's razor in mind: Never attribute to malice what could adequately be explained by ignorance. I suspect the person who put up this sign thought they were doing a Good Thing, and needs a gentle reminder to be more thoughtful in the future.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:05 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
If this sign went up in my office I would absolutely say something and ask that it be replaced, but I would approach the conversation with Hanlon's razor in mind: Never attribute to malice what could adequately be explained by ignorance. I suspect the person who put up this sign thought they were doing a Good Thing, and needs a gentle reminder to be more thoughtful in the future.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:05 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
When I first saw this sort of sign (as an androgynous individual), my reaction was "Oh hey someone is displaying how ridiculous this whole gendered bathroom argument is by taking it to an exaggerated level." Sort of like "Of course everyone can share the same bathroom. Why are we even arguing about this? People who make the argument of bathroom segregation are idiots and we're making fun of them."
I can definitely see now how it is tone deaf to the people it is attempting to welcome/protect to begin with.
posted by Young Kullervo at 8:01 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
I can definitely see now how it is tone deaf to the people it is attempting to welcome/protect to begin with.
posted by Young Kullervo at 8:01 AM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
Cis queer lady here. I think the sign is insulting. Not only are the creatures mythical, but they are half one thing, half another. Trans people aren't half and half, but that's sort of the way a lot of cis people think about them (cf "shemale"). Also the half/half creatures are wildly traditionally gendered, all toxic masculinity and "oh I'll walk on knives forever for a prince", so emphasizing rather than eliminating the consideration of gender expectations. Gross.
posted by donnagirl at 8:14 AM on April 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 8:14 AM on April 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
I’m cis, and my first thought was that the mermaid is female and the centaur is male. Without the text, it wouldn’t occur to me that it had anything to do with trans people. I also think cutesy bathroom signs are a bad idea. They can be confusing to someone just looking for a damn bathroom and especially to children. Ive seen signs in restaurants that say things like bucks and does, and that seems like it would be confusing to nonnative speakers. If I see a sign that just says “restroom,” I assume it’s not gendered.
posted by FencingGal at 8:26 AM on April 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 8:26 AM on April 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
Trans femme person here. I would much prefer this sign to binary gendered bathroom signs (which really suck for me at this point in my transition!), but agree that a simpler "all gender" bathroom sign would be better.
Would I personally complain about this personally? Probably not, since it would let me pee safely -- and there are many places where that's not the case for me right now.
posted by kylej at 9:25 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Would I personally complain about this personally? Probably not, since it would let me pee safely -- and there are many places where that's not the case for me right now.
posted by kylej at 9:25 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm trans (binary male) and this is so irritating to me that would cause me to complain to the manager and if they were a jerk, leave a bad review on Yelp.
A local queer/trans friendly club has bathrooms marked "Sit" and "Sit or Stand." The latter has a urinal in addition to a toilet. If you want to be cute, use a funky font or something.
posted by AFABulous at 9:43 AM on April 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
A local queer/trans friendly club has bathrooms marked "Sit" and "Sit or Stand." The latter has a urinal in addition to a toilet. If you want to be cute, use a funky font or something.
posted by AFABulous at 9:43 AM on April 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
I should add the reason why it's irritating - as others have mentioned, it plays into the transphobic trope that our gender is fantastical/mythical. It's especially damaging to trans kids. People very often say shit like "Boys [sic] who want to be girls? That's ridiculous; I wanted to be a mermaid when I was 5."
I understand that other trans people disagree and that's fine, but why not skip the potential for offense entirely when it's so easy to do?
posted by AFABulous at 9:48 AM on April 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
I understand that other trans people disagree and that's fine, but why not skip the potential for offense entirely when it's so easy to do?
posted by AFABulous at 9:48 AM on April 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
Cis woman, find these types of signs to be dismissive for the reasons listed above (and I agree they are often well-intentioned, but impact > intent, always).
I also think it's important to consider context. There's a sci-fi themed diner in my area that has wild-looking aliens on the bathroom doors, and I've always thought that was cute because...aliens! In a space restaurant! But I wouldn't appreciate it in another business context--I assume there are no centaurs working in or visiting your place of work.
posted by assenav at 11:02 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I also think it's important to consider context. There's a sci-fi themed diner in my area that has wild-looking aliens on the bathroom doors, and I've always thought that was cute because...aliens! In a space restaurant! But I wouldn't appreciate it in another business context--I assume there are no centaurs working in or visiting your place of work.
posted by assenav at 11:02 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
But I wouldn't appreciate it in another business context--I assume there are no centaurs working in or visiting your place of work.
Yeah, the signs would be cute at a RenFest but probably not elsewhere.
It's the "whatever" that takes tis over the top to offensive to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:33 AM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah, the signs would be cute at a RenFest but probably not elsewhere.
It's the "whatever" that takes tis over the top to offensive to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:33 AM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
It likens trans people to monsters. Hate it.
posted by Knowyournuts at 11:33 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Knowyournuts at 11:33 AM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
If your place of business deals with fantasy and imagination it's okay but doesn't even touch on gender for me and I wouldn't think of it as trans inclusive at all because it's got a binary division right there in the sign. So like, if you're working at a tabletop game store, a community theater, a comic book store, a crystal and incense witchy emporium, a costume shop, that sign is okay for the imaginative tone but not okay if the goal is to include trans folks. If you're not working at a place like any of those, it's just weird all around.
posted by Mizu at 11:46 AM on April 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 11:46 AM on April 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
Cis woman and like FencingGal I also thought the mermaid = woman, and centaur = man. The text underneath makes it more clear what the sign is trying to convey but I think it misses the mark.
posted by twilightlost at 11:58 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by twilightlost at 11:58 AM on April 18, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's the "whatever" that makes it offensive. It's like saying "I can't be bothered to understand what you call yourself - just here's the washroom and don't bother me with the rest."
If you (the business, not the OP) want to indicate that this is the washroom/ restroom, then put up a sign that says just that, with no further detail. People will get that it's for all.
posted by vignettist at 12:23 PM on April 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
If you (the business, not the OP) want to indicate that this is the washroom/ restroom, then put up a sign that says just that, with no further detail. People will get that it's for all.
posted by vignettist at 12:23 PM on April 18, 2018 [10 favorites]
From a UK perspective, Mermaids is a well-known support group for young trans people and their families. So the word is absolutely associated with trans issues over here.
But “centaur” isn’t, at all, so it sounds like you are lumping trans teenagers in with furries and not in a particularly positive way (ie calling them all weirdos). Doesn’t sound great if the sign is trying to be inclusive.
We generally just have signs up saying “gender-neutral toilet”. Sometimes “unisex toilet”. Cutesy signs just make it sound like you are providing mixed-gender facilities under a great deal of sufferance - really the less fuss the better for stuff like this. Just get on and provide it without looking for a medal.
posted by tinkletown at 12:56 PM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
But “centaur” isn’t, at all, so it sounds like you are lumping trans teenagers in with furries and not in a particularly positive way (ie calling them all weirdos). Doesn’t sound great if the sign is trying to be inclusive.
We generally just have signs up saying “gender-neutral toilet”. Sometimes “unisex toilet”. Cutesy signs just make it sound like you are providing mixed-gender facilities under a great deal of sufferance - really the less fuss the better for stuff like this. Just get on and provide it without looking for a medal.
posted by tinkletown at 12:56 PM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Apparently I am the only person who thought this was supposed to be a variant on one of those "employees must wash hands" signs and got really confused. Like I thought the message was, "I don't care how much of a special snowflake you think you are, the rules apply to everybody, even mermaids and centaurs." Man (or centaur, or whatever) it would be a better sign without the text. Agree that this would be appropriate in a fantasy themed workplace (like if you're a store that sells Harry Potter stuff?), and a little odd anywhere else.
posted by phoenixy at 1:00 PM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by phoenixy at 1:00 PM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’m a cis woman (though very femme-rejecting).
I’m very familiar with seeing gendered bathrooms (usually in bars) with non-typical labels on the doors. Besides living in a very queer, trans-friendly community, I have a number of friends who identify more as non-human than human. Maybe not ~seriously~, but strongly enough that I think of Dan as a dragon and CJ as a wolf and Mira as a space mermaid before I think of them as standard humans.
While I can’t recall seeing these signs in person, I have seen them shared on Facebook with the “hell yeah, we can be whatever we feel like” sentiment, which is also how I interpreted them.
It’s a bit surprising to hear how many people are upset about the signs, but I’m listening.
posted by itesser at 1:23 PM on April 18, 2018
I’m very familiar with seeing gendered bathrooms (usually in bars) with non-typical labels on the doors. Besides living in a very queer, trans-friendly community, I have a number of friends who identify more as non-human than human. Maybe not ~seriously~, but strongly enough that I think of Dan as a dragon and CJ as a wolf and Mira as a space mermaid before I think of them as standard humans.
While I can’t recall seeing these signs in person, I have seen them shared on Facebook with the “hell yeah, we can be whatever we feel like” sentiment, which is also how I interpreted them.
It’s a bit surprising to hear how many people are upset about the signs, but I’m listening.
posted by itesser at 1:23 PM on April 18, 2018
Back when I was walking around with a brain injury, this sign would have confused me. I'm cis female and don't know trans issues; pointing out another aspect of why this is a bad sign. Bathroom signs should be to the point. Don't mess around with toilet signage.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:02 PM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:02 PM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
"we don't care what sort of made up thing you think you are"
Cis male here. That's exactly how it reads to me.
The sign seems at best thoughtless, flippant and dismissive and at worst, deliberately offensive. Trans people deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, not likened to mythical creatures.
posted by zarq at 2:02 PM on April 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
Cis male here. That's exactly how it reads to me.
The sign seems at best thoughtless, flippant and dismissive and at worst, deliberately offensive. Trans people deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, not likened to mythical creatures.
posted by zarq at 2:02 PM on April 18, 2018 [8 favorites]
I go to a Pizza place in town run by a Gay man, who has this sign on the bathroom.
This seems to convey the same feeling; but with a little more tact. Suggest something like this to your boss; if you feel strongly enough about the present "Mermaid/Centaur" sign.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:05 PM on April 18, 2018
This seems to convey the same feeling; but with a little more tact. Suggest something like this to your boss; if you feel strongly enough about the present "Mermaid/Centaur" sign.
posted by indianbadger1 at 2:05 PM on April 18, 2018
I went through a similar thing when we opened our store. I don't like the man/woman half sign because it's still gendered. Cutesy signs are no better. I couldn't find a toilet icon sign that I liked so just went with sticking "Toilet" on the door and calling it done. We only have 1, so it's unisex by default.
posted by fiercekitten at 2:35 PM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by fiercekitten at 2:35 PM on April 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
indianbadger1: "I go to a Pizza place in town run by a Gay man, who has this sign on the bathroom.
This seems to convey the same feeling; but with a little more tact. Suggest something like this to your boss; if you feel strongly enough about the present "Mermaid/Centaur" sign."
That's the sign that non-binary people and others in this thread find offensive.
posted by Mitheral at 2:39 PM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
This seems to convey the same feeling; but with a little more tact. Suggest something like this to your boss; if you feel strongly enough about the present "Mermaid/Centaur" sign."
That's the sign that non-binary people and others in this thread find offensive.
posted by Mitheral at 2:39 PM on April 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oops. I did not realize this sign was problematic too! Seeing as how this was put up by a Gay man, I thought it was OK.
But I can now see how this can be problematic for non-binary people.
posted by indianbadger1 at 3:29 PM on April 18, 2018
But I can now see how this can be problematic for non-binary people.
posted by indianbadger1 at 3:29 PM on April 18, 2018
These always hit the "I'm an attack helicopter" shittiness to me. It's boring, but I think the signs should be a picture of a toilet, with maybe another sign showing they're handicap accessible.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:41 PM on April 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 3:41 PM on April 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
They’re not just fantastical creatures, they’re creatures that COMBINE TWO CREATURES. It’s the oldest nastiest Victor/Victoria humor.
posted by kalapierson at 6:13 PM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by kalapierson at 6:13 PM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
I (cis) get a warm feeling from signs that say "this washroom is for everyone" or "all gender restroom". They seem the most friendly and respectful to me.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:50 PM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:50 PM on April 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Seconding the comment about brain injury — I’ve had a couple that would make a sign like this incomprehensible. The trend towards word-reliant/in-only-one-language washroom signage troubles me, because it’s replacing one barrier to access with another.
The old “body-outline with/without skirt” symbols don’t reasonably translate to “toilet” but they’ve become a Western shorthand for it over time. For people who cannot read in the local language (or at all, or for now) words-only signs are a barrier which the human-figure symbols at least partially addressed.
Imperfect though they already are, replacing those symbols’ old, sartorially-dimorphic lower bodies with those of animals, in an allusion to culturally-specific mythology, is worse. It narrows accessibility in the name of either allyship or cynicism. Whichever it is, the performance is clumsy.
If the target clientele is largely comprised of people who humblebrag about “remembering to acknowledge my own privilege,” it’s meant to appeal to them, not the demographics whose ally cred they seek. If the target clientele is just...geeks, then I have to figure it’s meant to have a more Libertarian appeal.
Either way, I can’t figure out how either a centaur or a mermaid would successfully use either a toilet or a urinal, so how the hell do I know if the plumbing will suit my bipedal, sit-down needs?
posted by armeowda at 11:29 PM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
The old “body-outline with/without skirt” symbols don’t reasonably translate to “toilet” but they’ve become a Western shorthand for it over time. For people who cannot read in the local language (or at all, or for now) words-only signs are a barrier which the human-figure symbols at least partially addressed.
Imperfect though they already are, replacing those symbols’ old, sartorially-dimorphic lower bodies with those of animals, in an allusion to culturally-specific mythology, is worse. It narrows accessibility in the name of either allyship or cynicism. Whichever it is, the performance is clumsy.
If the target clientele is largely comprised of people who humblebrag about “remembering to acknowledge my own privilege,” it’s meant to appeal to them, not the demographics whose ally cred they seek. If the target clientele is just...geeks, then I have to figure it’s meant to have a more Libertarian appeal.
Either way, I can’t figure out how either a centaur or a mermaid would successfully use either a toilet or a urinal, so how the hell do I know if the plumbing will suit my bipedal, sit-down needs?
posted by armeowda at 11:29 PM on April 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
Adding my voice as a cis het woman, because if your boss is unwilling to consider the varying viewpoints and opinions of trans/nonbinary folks, if this were in a restaurant or coffee shop, I would remark on it to the staff and not return. My friends of any and all and no genders are people, not cartoons or mythical creatures. I'm also a person. This sign is so dismissive it makes my eyes hurt.
posted by bilabial at 4:26 AM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bilabial at 4:26 AM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
If you're a place of business thinking of doing something with the possibility of offending and/or confusing people, and you know a simple alternative exists, why not do the alternative?
I'm a cis woman and this sign would make me question both the intentions and judgment of the person who hung it.
posted by gennessee at 4:45 AM on April 19, 2018
I'm a cis woman and this sign would make me question both the intentions and judgment of the person who hung it.
posted by gennessee at 4:45 AM on April 19, 2018
Curious whether a sign that just says "Restroom" has been considered and rejected?
posted by BaffledWaffle at 5:41 AM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by BaffledWaffle at 5:41 AM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
I find myself still thinking about this thread.
It occurred to me that my super conservative* family members would also find this sign offensive. They would launch into a tirade about "those g-d (slur)'s making up nonsense and making everyone uncomfortable" or some such (it would likely be nastier but that's the gist). They would also refuse to return to a business that they deemed as "catering" to (slur)'s.
It seems to me that a sign like this has more potential to offend everyone rather than be inoffensive to anyone.
*And now I've just realized that I really should give up the ghost and stop using the euphamism "conservative" when what I really mean is "overtly, publicly, and without any shame bigoted".
posted by vignettist at 1:24 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
It occurred to me that my super conservative* family members would also find this sign offensive. They would launch into a tirade about "those g-d (slur)'s making up nonsense and making everyone uncomfortable" or some such (it would likely be nastier but that's the gist). They would also refuse to return to a business that they deemed as "catering" to (slur)'s.
It seems to me that a sign like this has more potential to offend everyone rather than be inoffensive to anyone.
*And now I've just realized that I really should give up the ghost and stop using the euphamism "conservative" when what I really mean is "overtly, publicly, and without any shame bigoted".
posted by vignettist at 1:24 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
BaffledWaffle: "Curious whether a sign that just says "Restroom" has been considered and rejected?"
That only works for people who can read English. A picogram of some sort should also be included.
posted by Mitheral at 7:30 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
That only works for people who can read English. A picogram of some sort should also be included.
posted by Mitheral at 7:30 PM on April 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Interestingly, this is a weird ripoff of a sign created by a trans artist, Micah Bazant from before bathroom bills were a mainstream discussion. So I personally (a masculine, gender non-conforming person who gets into conflicts about what bathroom I use) have positive associations from the original project. To me the issue is the captions, not the whimsical art. I think enough gender non-conforming folks in this thread have weighed in negatively to say this sign does not work.
I guess I'd gently and kindly tell your boss, "You know, it's awesome that we don't care about who uses the bathrooms here, but I asked around and a lot of folks I talked to said they'd just prefer a sign that says, "All Gender Bathroom" or something.
FYI, here's an illustration Micah Bazant did for Marketplace on bathrooms of the future
posted by latkes at 7:50 PM on April 19, 2018
I guess I'd gently and kindly tell your boss, "You know, it's awesome that we don't care about who uses the bathrooms here, but I asked around and a lot of folks I talked to said they'd just prefer a sign that says, "All Gender Bathroom" or something.
FYI, here's an illustration Micah Bazant did for Marketplace on bathrooms of the future
posted by latkes at 7:50 PM on April 19, 2018
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone who has responded, glad to know that I'm not the only one reading it as un-fun. When I offered my opinion the boss offered to take it down immediately, but I said not to do so on my account, the point isn't whether *I* am bothered by it, it's more than I want her to think around how it can be perceived. We have plenty of visual indicators that we are queer friendly around the office such as rainbow flags, but maybe this will help temper peoples expectations as to how woke we actually are. For the record I checked in with one of our young NB visitors who said they would dig it, but because they're a mythology nerd. The point about the english language is also relevant as we are in a non-english speaking country and many of our visitors wouldn't have much english.
For those of you wondering what other options were considered, our original set-up is IMHO about as good as a you could ask for in terms of inclusiveness, two fully separate single-use, fully enclosed bathrooms with their own sinks, one of which is wheelchair accessible, and they're marked WC (which would be understandable here).
posted by Iteki at 1:26 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
For those of you wondering what other options were considered, our original set-up is IMHO about as good as a you could ask for in terms of inclusiveness, two fully separate single-use, fully enclosed bathrooms with their own sinks, one of which is wheelchair accessible, and they're marked WC (which would be understandable here).
posted by Iteki at 1:26 PM on April 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
> BaffledWaffle: "Curious whether a sign that just says "Restroom" has been considered and rejected?"
That only works for people who can read English. A picogram of some sort should also be included.
Agreed. But a picture of a toilet and words that say "for everyone" would be simple, inclusive, and very clear.
(You can make it a rainbow-colored toilet if you want some whimsy...?)
posted by desuetude at 8:20 AM on April 24, 2018
That only works for people who can read English. A picogram of some sort should also be included.
Agreed. But a picture of a toilet and words that say "for everyone" would be simple, inclusive, and very clear.
(You can make it a rainbow-colored toilet if you want some whimsy...?)
posted by desuetude at 8:20 AM on April 24, 2018
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posted by arnicae at 11:11 PM on April 17, 2018 [15 favorites]