What can we do about a DV victim who won't name her attacker?
April 10, 2018 9:37 AM Subscribe
Are there legal consequences for her if she doesn't?
My partner's friend has an ex-boyfriend who is a POS. The story goes that the ex found out where she lived before. Even though she has routinely had bruises over the years she only called 911 once and when the cops came she suddenly became dumb and refused to name him as the attacker. Though she did tell them that she had been in a relationship with him, they still wanted his name and she wouldn't give it. (He wasn't there by the time they arrived). When we went to talk to the department they said if she didn't name her attacker there was nothing they could do. She stayed with a friend for a while and just recently moved to NY where she's now planning to stay. Since my partner and I live in NJ we've agreed to support her for the next 12 months, under the condition that there be zero contact with her ex and that if something like before happens again she has to cooperate with the police. She agreed to the first term, but was hesitant on the second term. She claims she doesn't want to deal with going to court so she's not sure she'd agree to name him if he caused trouble again. Then my partner snapped at her and said that in NY state if she knows her attacker is her ex and she refuses to name him, they can charge her with non-cooperating and then it would be a real mess, so now her friend is freaking out. She now ranting about wanting to pick another state where she can "live in peace". First of all even if what my partner blurted out was true, she shouldn't have said it... furthermore, we're not lawyers and I'm not even sure it is true! My partner got that idea from some article she read, but I cannot find any such article.
I think that we can convince her to calm down if we can tell her that a- her ex will not find her and if he does she's not going to be forced to say anything... but really we're just talking out of our asses, we have no idea what the laws actually say and she doesn't seem to trust us much anymore because of the poor way we've handled the discussion.
Asking two things here. First we'd like to know if there would indeed be legal consequences for her to deal with if what happened before were to happen in NY- That way we can at least have an open and calm discussion based on truth rather than based on emotional blurtings. Second we'd like to know how we can maybe eventually change her mind about being afraid to name him ever to an authority. So that maybe she won't be so afraid and can regain some of her power.
My partner's friend has an ex-boyfriend who is a POS. The story goes that the ex found out where she lived before. Even though she has routinely had bruises over the years she only called 911 once and when the cops came she suddenly became dumb and refused to name him as the attacker. Though she did tell them that she had been in a relationship with him, they still wanted his name and she wouldn't give it. (He wasn't there by the time they arrived). When we went to talk to the department they said if she didn't name her attacker there was nothing they could do. She stayed with a friend for a while and just recently moved to NY where she's now planning to stay. Since my partner and I live in NJ we've agreed to support her for the next 12 months, under the condition that there be zero contact with her ex and that if something like before happens again she has to cooperate with the police. She agreed to the first term, but was hesitant on the second term. She claims she doesn't want to deal with going to court so she's not sure she'd agree to name him if he caused trouble again. Then my partner snapped at her and said that in NY state if she knows her attacker is her ex and she refuses to name him, they can charge her with non-cooperating and then it would be a real mess, so now her friend is freaking out. She now ranting about wanting to pick another state where she can "live in peace". First of all even if what my partner blurted out was true, she shouldn't have said it... furthermore, we're not lawyers and I'm not even sure it is true! My partner got that idea from some article she read, but I cannot find any such article.
I think that we can convince her to calm down if we can tell her that a- her ex will not find her and if he does she's not going to be forced to say anything... but really we're just talking out of our asses, we have no idea what the laws actually say and she doesn't seem to trust us much anymore because of the poor way we've handled the discussion.
Asking two things here. First we'd like to know if there would indeed be legal consequences for her to deal with if what happened before were to happen in NY- That way we can at least have an open and calm discussion based on truth rather than based on emotional blurtings. Second we'd like to know how we can maybe eventually change her mind about being afraid to name him ever to an authority. So that maybe she won't be so afraid and can regain some of her power.
SeedStitch virtually wrote my post for me, but to answer the specific question: no, there are not legal consequences for not naming your attacker (maybe possibly an exception if a child in one's custody was involved, which doesn't seem to be the case here).
Dealing with intimate partner violence victims can be very frustrating and some of the tactics required can be counterintuitive, but I should hope it would be abundantly obvious that if you want to build a relationship of trust and respect with anyone, making up random threats that aren't even grounded in reality is not the way to go.
posted by praemunire at 9:55 AM on April 10, 2018 [14 favorites]
Dealing with intimate partner violence victims can be very frustrating and some of the tactics required can be counterintuitive, but I should hope it would be abundantly obvious that if you want to build a relationship of trust and respect with anyone, making up random threats that aren't even grounded in reality is not the way to go.
posted by praemunire at 9:55 AM on April 10, 2018 [14 favorites]
I think that we can convince her to calm down if we can tell her that a- her ex will not find her
You can't promise that, and shouldn't. Domestic violence is incredibly complicated even though it seems a lot less so from the outside. The person who needs to calm down here is your partner who is basically snapping at a domestic violence survivor which is not a good look.
So in answer to your questions
1. No.
2. You can't change her mind. She might change her own mind.
I suggest, strongly, going into this viewing her as an adult who is making rational-to-her choices, not someone making irrational choices for reasons you can't understand. And rethinking the "We will support you only if you go no contact" unless you are really prepared to kick her out if she does something that is pretty normative in this sort of situation. Maybe starting here in terms of getting more of a handle on what is happening? “Why Don’t They Just Leave?”
posted by jessamyn at 10:06 AM on April 10, 2018 [24 favorites]
You can't promise that, and shouldn't. Domestic violence is incredibly complicated even though it seems a lot less so from the outside. The person who needs to calm down here is your partner who is basically snapping at a domestic violence survivor which is not a good look.
So in answer to your questions
1. No.
2. You can't change her mind. She might change her own mind.
I suggest, strongly, going into this viewing her as an adult who is making rational-to-her choices, not someone making irrational choices for reasons you can't understand. And rethinking the "We will support you only if you go no contact" unless you are really prepared to kick her out if she does something that is pretty normative in this sort of situation. Maybe starting here in terms of getting more of a handle on what is happening? “Why Don’t They Just Leave?”
posted by jessamyn at 10:06 AM on April 10, 2018 [24 favorites]
I would only add that you could discuss with your partner the idea that someone would be required to press charges against another person based on the accusations of a third person who was not a witness.
posted by rhizome at 10:10 AM on April 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 10:10 AM on April 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
As a survivor of abuse, I would like to gently suggest that you do a bit of reading about the dynamic. Lundy Bancroft is a good author to start with. Victims and survivors have been whittled down and taught that they cannot manage their own lives. I know that you are trying to help, but these restrictions and the amount of control that you are exerting on this person are not very appropriate.
I had some "kind" friends try to "help" me in similar ways as I was leaving my abuser, and I no longer have any contact or relationship with those individuals. They were not doing me the favor that they thought they were doing for me by imposing control and restrictions on my life or my choices. It turned out that they had their own motives, and I'm not even sure that they were aware of them really, but them helping me was not really about actually helping me. It was filling some unmet need that they had in their own lives. What is your real motive for helping this individual? I'm not asking you to reply here, but were I you, I would do some long, hard thinking about what you're actually trying to accomplish here.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 10:32 AM on April 10, 2018 [18 favorites]
I had some "kind" friends try to "help" me in similar ways as I was leaving my abuser, and I no longer have any contact or relationship with those individuals. They were not doing me the favor that they thought they were doing for me by imposing control and restrictions on my life or my choices. It turned out that they had their own motives, and I'm not even sure that they were aware of them really, but them helping me was not really about actually helping me. It was filling some unmet need that they had in their own lives. What is your real motive for helping this individual? I'm not asking you to reply here, but were I you, I would do some long, hard thinking about what you're actually trying to accomplish here.
Take care.
posted by sockermom at 10:32 AM on April 10, 2018 [18 favorites]
Also, naming their abuser may or may not give them power, and it's really not up to you to decide. I understand that you're very angry about what has happened to this person, but what they decide to do with their story of abuse is their decision alone. Do not try to convince them to name their abuser. That is not helpful or productive. It's controlling and out of line.
posted by sockermom at 10:34 AM on April 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 10:34 AM on April 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
It's controlling and out of line.
And it puts you in league with her attacker: "Hmm, maybe she really doesn't listen. Let's escalate."
posted by rhizome at 10:45 AM on April 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
And it puts you in league with her attacker: "Hmm, maybe she really doesn't listen. Let's escalate."
posted by rhizome at 10:45 AM on April 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
As a survivor of abuse, I also want to add a few dynamics you may not be aware of.
Police are unable or unwilling to protect domestic abuse victims, and the period after a victim files charges or a restraining order is the period that individual is most likely to be killed.
It's also really hard to get a conviction for domestic abuse or for judges to take it seriously. And frequently - and this is disgusting, but real - judges are sometimes more likely to award custody to the abuser, on the grounds that it is the victim who has a problem with the abuser's presence, not the abuser having a problem with the victim's presence.
posted by corb at 10:46 AM on April 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
Police are unable or unwilling to protect domestic abuse victims, and the period after a victim files charges or a restraining order is the period that individual is most likely to be killed.
It's also really hard to get a conviction for domestic abuse or for judges to take it seriously. And frequently - and this is disgusting, but real - judges are sometimes more likely to award custody to the abuser, on the grounds that it is the victim who has a problem with the abuser's presence, not the abuser having a problem with the victim's presence.
posted by corb at 10:46 AM on April 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
Your role here is to support her decisions. That's it. Anything else is completely inappropriate and your instincts may well endanger her. #trustwomen
posted by DarlingBri at 10:51 AM on April 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 10:51 AM on April 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
I agree that you and your partner are inappropriately involved for all the reasons stated above. Check out the MeFi ThereIsHelp wiki for resources that may be able to assist your friend. There are also links to threads that may make for informative reading for you and your partner.
posted by juliplease at 11:03 AM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by juliplease at 11:03 AM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wow. You know, something big that third parties can do for abused people is model appropriate behavior and allow them to experience what it's like to live in non-coercive relationships, helping to reset their expectations for future relationships.
What you're describing is NOT that. You guys need to back the F up out of her space and let her make her own decisions and do her own research.
It's really great that you're offering to support her. But if doing so means you're going to be essentially threatening her with legal consequences for not handling a violent and scary situation the way you would have handled it, you're at least partially perpetuating a dynamic of control. I think your partner owes her an apology.
(P.S. I wrote this before reading all the other comments above, which apparently agree with me.)
posted by salvia at 11:53 AM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
What you're describing is NOT that. You guys need to back the F up out of her space and let her make her own decisions and do her own research.
It's really great that you're offering to support her. But if doing so means you're going to be essentially threatening her with legal consequences for not handling a violent and scary situation the way you would have handled it, you're at least partially perpetuating a dynamic of control. I think your partner owes her an apology.
(P.S. I wrote this before reading all the other comments above, which apparently agree with me.)
posted by salvia at 11:53 AM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
she doesn't seem to trust us much anymore because of the poor way we've handled the discussion
Yeah...she's right. Your partner made shit up to win an argument. I think you need to slow down, take some time to calm down, and decide on your goals. Here are some appropriate goals for a fellow adult:
1. You can agree to her living with you on conditions you set. The conditions, however, given that you're all adults, should relate to actually living together.
So you could say that you do not want to have any contact with her ex, so she cannot give him your address or bring him into your home. Given cell phones I don't think it's really reasonable to try to control whether she calls him or not from her own phone or whether she goes to visit him.
2. From long experience as a person with a rescuer complex, you really have to let go of the idea that you are only helping if you can see immediate results (i.e. she "gets her power back" and never talks to this guy again.) You have to assume that your help will be valuable regardless of where she is in her life journey. So if she stays with you for a month and then goes back to him, then...at least she had a month abuser-free.
I know this sounds counter-intuitive in our ABC Afterschool Special-built society but your selfless act does not guarantee results, and it's not fair of you to offer help only on the condition that she behaves the way you want her to. This is not "please wash your dishes" level roommate requests here.
3. The fact that you were prepared to try to promise her something you cannot possibly guarantee (that her ex won't find her) AND threaten something that isn't true at all kind of points to you not being in a very reality-based place. I would seriously consider finding a graceful exit for this arrangement at this point.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:57 AM on April 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Yeah...she's right. Your partner made shit up to win an argument. I think you need to slow down, take some time to calm down, and decide on your goals. Here are some appropriate goals for a fellow adult:
1. You can agree to her living with you on conditions you set. The conditions, however, given that you're all adults, should relate to actually living together.
So you could say that you do not want to have any contact with her ex, so she cannot give him your address or bring him into your home. Given cell phones I don't think it's really reasonable to try to control whether she calls him or not from her own phone or whether she goes to visit him.
2. From long experience as a person with a rescuer complex, you really have to let go of the idea that you are only helping if you can see immediate results (i.e. she "gets her power back" and never talks to this guy again.) You have to assume that your help will be valuable regardless of where she is in her life journey. So if she stays with you for a month and then goes back to him, then...at least she had a month abuser-free.
I know this sounds counter-intuitive in our ABC Afterschool Special-built society but your selfless act does not guarantee results, and it's not fair of you to offer help only on the condition that she behaves the way you want her to. This is not "please wash your dishes" level roommate requests here.
3. The fact that you were prepared to try to promise her something you cannot possibly guarantee (that her ex won't find her) AND threaten something that isn't true at all kind of points to you not being in a very reality-based place. I would seriously consider finding a graceful exit for this arrangement at this point.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:57 AM on April 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Since my partner and I live in NJ we've agreed to support her for the next 12 months, under the condition that there be zero contact with her ex and that if something like before happens again she has to cooperate with the police.
This is a huge favor you're doing her but for whatever reason, you're (or your partner is) tying it up in quasi-parental control that she may be conditioned by long abuse or forced by circumstance to accept, but will not feel good or dignified about. nobody could.
you don't have to support her unconditionally, or at all. but put the rules on yourselves; tell her what you will do. like: we will not allow him in our house and if he shows up we'll call the police for our own safety. you could even add that you need a prior agreement that she won't tell him your names or address. but don't try to train her to good victim behavior or force police contact/cooperation, it's wrong even if it's not making her less safe. which it might be.
how we can maybe eventually change her mind about being afraid to name him ever to an authority
by changing your own minds so that your primary goal is, instead, understanding why she is so afraid to name him. do not pursue this goal by demanding she tell you. I can think of a couple of reasons just out of my pure imagination, like such as maybe he IS an authority, or a friend or relative of an authority. that happens a lot. Maybe she's smart enough to know that people don't go to jail for life on DV charges, and even if he's arrested and locked up, he'll get out someday. you can't change her mind until you understand it and by then, you may know better than to try.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:03 PM on April 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is a huge favor you're doing her but for whatever reason, you're (or your partner is) tying it up in quasi-parental control that she may be conditioned by long abuse or forced by circumstance to accept, but will not feel good or dignified about. nobody could.
you don't have to support her unconditionally, or at all. but put the rules on yourselves; tell her what you will do. like: we will not allow him in our house and if he shows up we'll call the police for our own safety. you could even add that you need a prior agreement that she won't tell him your names or address. but don't try to train her to good victim behavior or force police contact/cooperation, it's wrong even if it's not making her less safe. which it might be.
how we can maybe eventually change her mind about being afraid to name him ever to an authority
by changing your own minds so that your primary goal is, instead, understanding why she is so afraid to name him. do not pursue this goal by demanding she tell you. I can think of a couple of reasons just out of my pure imagination, like such as maybe he IS an authority, or a friend or relative of an authority. that happens a lot. Maybe she's smart enough to know that people don't go to jail for life on DV charges, and even if he's arrested and locked up, he'll get out someday. you can't change her mind until you understand it and by then, you may know better than to try.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:03 PM on April 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
People regain power by learning to trust themselves, not because they are forced to do what other people tell them to do. That's the opposite of self-empowerment, and it's a re-creation of the abuse dynamic.
posted by lazuli at 12:06 PM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 12:06 PM on April 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
Not a lawyer, but after looking it up online it does seem there have been instances where judges have jailed or charged victims for not cooperating. Judge Collins in Fl after a victim refused to testify against her aggressor, placed her in jail for it. But that was in Florida a few months ago, and it's probably not a common happening. So based on this, I guess they legally COULD in some states, but usually don't. Again- Not a lawyer.
posted by fantasticness at 1:02 PM on April 10, 2018
posted by fantasticness at 1:02 PM on April 10, 2018
There is a small possibility that if an abuser is brought to trial, the victim is subpoenaed, and the victim refuses to testify, the victim might be held in contempt. Even in that context, it's outrageous enough to make the news. There is really effectively zero chance of an IPV victim (or anyone, really) facing criminal charges for not identifying their attacker to police responding to a call (if a minor child is not involved).
posted by praemunire at 1:14 PM on April 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 1:14 PM on April 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Uncooperative DV victims are a common, common thing. If the court decided to start charging all of them, that would further clog the courts. And as a thing to say? How counterproductive. I think the most likely response would be for a victim to call the police less, if they thought it risked them being charged. What a thing to put in someone's head. I imagine someone in an actively violent situation second-guessing whether or not to call the cops.
posted by salvia at 1:51 PM on April 10, 2018
posted by salvia at 1:51 PM on April 10, 2018
I think everybody else has covered why you are in the wrong. As far as how to help ...
If you still want to help this person, rather than just getting out of their life, I think you need to apologize very explicitly. Tell her that you've realized you were being too controlling, and that you feel horrible about it. (Do you? Can you let go of trying to control her, and instead only try to make boundaries based on your safety/available resources?) Tell her you've read more about the dynamics of abuse (after doing so) and that you respect (and understand) her decision for what to report. It sounds like you are prepared to be very generous - so ask her how you can help. Don't react negatively when what she needs isn't what you pictured; you don't have to provide it, but talk rather than trying to make ultimatums.
posted by Metasyntactic at 2:05 PM on April 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you still want to help this person, rather than just getting out of their life, I think you need to apologize very explicitly. Tell her that you've realized you were being too controlling, and that you feel horrible about it. (Do you? Can you let go of trying to control her, and instead only try to make boundaries based on your safety/available resources?) Tell her you've read more about the dynamics of abuse (after doing so) and that you respect (and understand) her decision for what to report. It sounds like you are prepared to be very generous - so ask her how you can help. Don't react negatively when what she needs isn't what you pictured; you don't have to provide it, but talk rather than trying to make ultimatums.
posted by Metasyntactic at 2:05 PM on April 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
I would like to suggest that you may be able to help her best by not trying to help her. Some of what you have done and propose to do is dangerous.
If nothing else you might consider what you can do for her, not "about" her.
posted by Verba Volant at 2:51 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
If nothing else you might consider what you can do for her, not "about" her.
posted by Verba Volant at 2:51 PM on April 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
One thing that you could do that would be most helpful in regaining her power is to see if she would be open to working with therapist. A therapist could help her see how her reactions had been shaped by the abuse and help her figure out what she wants for herself and how to move towards it. In California, there are a number of free and low cost counseling resources available, some of which are open to anyone experiencing domestic violence, regardless of the type of abuse or whether a police report had been filed. If your friend was open to the idea, you could offer to call around and see what might work for her.
Also, at least in California, laws about mandatory reporting do NOT apply to adult victims telling their therapist about abuse that they experienced (provided that no children, seniors or dependent adults are at risk). Theory is that is more helpful to the victim if the therapist retains their confidence and helps them figure out for themselves what the best option might be.
posted by metahawk at 7:31 PM on April 10, 2018
Also, at least in California, laws about mandatory reporting do NOT apply to adult victims telling their therapist about abuse that they experienced (provided that no children, seniors or dependent adults are at risk). Theory is that is more helpful to the victim if the therapist retains their confidence and helps them figure out for themselves what the best option might be.
posted by metahawk at 7:31 PM on April 10, 2018
instead of trying to do legal research for her, your partner just needs to apologize and take a big step back. Like this: "Phyllis, I am sorry. I was out of line. I was talking out of my ass, because I was frustrated and grasping at something that seemed to me like it would be a good idea. I'm done trying to quote law to you as obviously I don't know it. But I'm your friend and I want to help, so I looked up this local DV org and here's the number and I can give you a ride over there today if you want."
You can make conditions about the use of your home - that she can never give him that address; that she can never bring him there; that she can't tell him who she's living with. And of course, how long she can stay. You're the authority about the use of your home. But you're not an authority about how to deal with DV, or any aspect of DV law or procedure, so you both need to stop trying to step into that role.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:57 PM on April 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
You can make conditions about the use of your home - that she can never give him that address; that she can never bring him there; that she can't tell him who she's living with. And of course, how long she can stay. You're the authority about the use of your home. But you're not an authority about how to deal with DV, or any aspect of DV law or procedure, so you both need to stop trying to step into that role.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:57 PM on April 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
You can support her in ways that don't involve endangering yourself. I wouldn't offer my home to her both for her needs and your own.
posted by biggreenplant at 10:41 AM on April 12, 2018
posted by biggreenplant at 10:41 AM on April 12, 2018
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by SeedStitch at 9:48 AM on April 10, 2018 [50 favorites]