Tenant - Owner Tension in Union City NJ
January 6, 2018 1:05 AM Subscribe
The owner whom I am renting from has threatened "formal action". After reading the details below, I would like to know what how I should respond to his/her most recent complaint, range of actions s/he can take, and whether or not I need a lawyer to protects my rights as a tenant.
Here is the situation. Near the end of summer my family (me, spouse and 1.5 yo) moved into the second story of a mulit-story house. The owner lives on the first floor, directly beneath us. My spouse commutes to NYC for work M-F and I am a stay-at-home parent to our toddler.
A little more than a month in to our stay, s/he texted me a noise complaint about banging on the floor (the floor is all hardwood). In response, I replied that I would take way my child's hard toys and put a carpet in her play area. Which I did.
Shortly thereafter, my child learned how to walk.
One month after the first complaint, he complained about bouncing toys and other noise on the hardwood floors. He said he works from home and it breaks his concentration. I replied that I would get rid of all of her rubber toys (which I did, we play ball with balloons now), and I added padding under the rug of her play area.
A little more than two months later (today) I received a third complaint specifically about my toddler "stomping" around, banging on the floor, and the movement or "dragging" of my desk chair. This is the complaint where s/he threatened "formal action". I haven't responded yet.
I completely understand where s/he's coming from. I'd be peeved too. The stomping around is because my toddler learned to walk recently, his/her footsteps are heavy and awkward but it's not like I can just prevent my child from walking. The banging occurs when I'm reading to him/her and they throw the book on the floor, or throw their sippy-cup on the floor or grabs a random thing like shoes, and throws them. I'm teaching him/her not to throw things, but they're a toddler. Learning takes time. S/he doesn't have a toy that s/he just bangs on the floor. My office chair has wheels, and is on a rug, so I didn't even know that was a problem until now. I'm not going to prevent my child from walking in their own home, I'm not going to stop reading to him/her. I'm not sure what else I can do to improve the situation short of surgically replacing her feet with wheels. I take him/her out as often as I can during the day (like to the park, or library), but on days like today (multiple inches of snow and very windy), s/he is stuck inside and is a ball of energy.
Regarding our lease agreement, there is only one noise-specific provision: "No loud noises (parties, music, etc.) in the apartment after 9pm on weekdays and after 11pm on weekends." The complaints are about daytime noise though. My child is asleep during those listed hours.
Other provision may include noises, but is unclear. For example, one subsection reads as "Do nothing that interferes with the use and enjoyment of neighboring properties", but that is listed under the section heading of "Tenant's Repairs and Maintenance", so I have no idea if that applies here because my toddler isn't repairing or maintaining anything.
I want to keep the peace with the owner, but I'm out of ideas on how to solve or respond to his/her noise complaint. Please help.
Here is the situation. Near the end of summer my family (me, spouse and 1.5 yo) moved into the second story of a mulit-story house. The owner lives on the first floor, directly beneath us. My spouse commutes to NYC for work M-F and I am a stay-at-home parent to our toddler.
A little more than a month in to our stay, s/he texted me a noise complaint about banging on the floor (the floor is all hardwood). In response, I replied that I would take way my child's hard toys and put a carpet in her play area. Which I did.
Shortly thereafter, my child learned how to walk.
One month after the first complaint, he complained about bouncing toys and other noise on the hardwood floors. He said he works from home and it breaks his concentration. I replied that I would get rid of all of her rubber toys (which I did, we play ball with balloons now), and I added padding under the rug of her play area.
A little more than two months later (today) I received a third complaint specifically about my toddler "stomping" around, banging on the floor, and the movement or "dragging" of my desk chair. This is the complaint where s/he threatened "formal action". I haven't responded yet.
I completely understand where s/he's coming from. I'd be peeved too. The stomping around is because my toddler learned to walk recently, his/her footsteps are heavy and awkward but it's not like I can just prevent my child from walking. The banging occurs when I'm reading to him/her and they throw the book on the floor, or throw their sippy-cup on the floor or grabs a random thing like shoes, and throws them. I'm teaching him/her not to throw things, but they're a toddler. Learning takes time. S/he doesn't have a toy that s/he just bangs on the floor. My office chair has wheels, and is on a rug, so I didn't even know that was a problem until now. I'm not going to prevent my child from walking in their own home, I'm not going to stop reading to him/her. I'm not sure what else I can do to improve the situation short of surgically replacing her feet with wheels. I take him/her out as often as I can during the day (like to the park, or library), but on days like today (multiple inches of snow and very windy), s/he is stuck inside and is a ball of energy.
Regarding our lease agreement, there is only one noise-specific provision: "No loud noises (parties, music, etc.) in the apartment after 9pm on weekdays and after 11pm on weekends." The complaints are about daytime noise though. My child is asleep during those listed hours.
Other provision may include noises, but is unclear. For example, one subsection reads as "Do nothing that interferes with the use and enjoyment of neighboring properties", but that is listed under the section heading of "Tenant's Repairs and Maintenance", so I have no idea if that applies here because my toddler isn't repairing or maintaining anything.
I want to keep the peace with the owner, but I'm out of ideas on how to solve or respond to his/her noise complaint. Please help.
I think you will need to move at the end of your lease. The best way to deal with your landlord at this point is to write a letter describing the accommodations you've made and letting them know that you'll be moving at the end of your lease term.
Sound in buildings is hard and so far as I can tell you're doing everything you can to keep quiet. Some buildings carry sound and some people are sensitive to sound. When you get both of those and a toddler, there's no easy solution that doesn't involve structural changes and earplugs.
posted by sciencegeek at 3:46 AM on January 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
Sound in buildings is hard and so far as I can tell you're doing everything you can to keep quiet. Some buildings carry sound and some people are sensitive to sound. When you get both of those and a toddler, there's no easy solution that doesn't involve structural changes and earplugs.
posted by sciencegeek at 3:46 AM on January 6, 2018 [14 favorites]
Have you actually spoken to the landlord about this? It sounds like all communications have been via text. Ultimately, I agree with Sciencegeek that you should provide written notice of what you have done to accommodate his requests and that you will move at the end of your lease, but I'm just wondering if any actual conversations have taken place.
He sounds inexperienced both at being a landlord and at being around young children by the way. Some people just don't get it.
posted by Gnella at 4:46 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
He sounds inexperienced both at being a landlord and at being around young children by the way. Some people just don't get it.
posted by Gnella at 4:46 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seconding the "you're going to have to move" sentiment. Once the landlord has decided you're a problem it's only going to get worse, especially since you're in the same building. Make sure you're following the letter of your lease and that your landlord knows this. There may be a tenant-advocacy organization for your city or neighborhood; find & contact them. If they exist, they've certainly seen this problem before.
posted by Ampersand692 at 4:50 AM on January 6, 2018
posted by Ampersand692 at 4:50 AM on January 6, 2018
I currently live above 2 young children, and I've previously lived below young children. They make noise. There's no real way to get around that. The 5 year old below me was positively ecstatic today that it's bin day. I heard that. Then the 2 year old fell over and started crying. I heard that too.
Realistically, unless you live in some sort of hostile forced silence, children will be children and they will make noise. Not having hard toys, only playing on carpet are only temporary solutions until your child is a little bit older, a little bit louder and a little bit more mobile.
I think its reasonable to make best efforts to keep noise to a minimum at night. During the day, however, noise happens. It's part of life. If someone doesn't like that, they really shouldn't be living in an apartment. Your landlord is being unreasonable. Unfortunately they're also your landlord. If they really are willing to penalise you or evict you over reasonable, day time noise made by your child then you probably will have to move out eventually.
posted by leo_r at 6:45 AM on January 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Realistically, unless you live in some sort of hostile forced silence, children will be children and they will make noise. Not having hard toys, only playing on carpet are only temporary solutions until your child is a little bit older, a little bit louder and a little bit more mobile.
I think its reasonable to make best efforts to keep noise to a minimum at night. During the day, however, noise happens. It's part of life. If someone doesn't like that, they really shouldn't be living in an apartment. Your landlord is being unreasonable. Unfortunately they're also your landlord. If they really are willing to penalise you or evict you over reasonable, day time noise made by your child then you probably will have to move out eventually.
posted by leo_r at 6:45 AM on January 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
He/she knew you had a child when the unit was rented. Do your best to muffle noise, start looking for a child friendly place.
posted by james33 at 6:57 AM on January 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by james33 at 6:57 AM on January 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you don't love the place, it's probably not worth the trouble, but if you really love the place, you're in luck that you live in Union City. It might be, and it certainly tries to appear to be, the most tenant-rights-friendly municipality anywhere, including (for such a small place) a city-paid tenants' rights attorney and a mayor who encourages tenants with landlord issues to call him personally! Outside of specified senior housing, family non-discrimination is a core tenet of landlord rights laws, and TOTALLY includes the right of ordinary toddlers to do ordinary toddler things in daytime hours. (Heck, it includes the right of colicky infants to make everyone miserable at 3 a.m.)
All of this said, many tenants rights laws and ordinances carve out smaller buildings and especially smaller buildings whose owners are the primary tenants with an upstairs or parlor apartment rented out. But it's worth a couple of calls to see if someone at the City will intercede with your landlord.
posted by MattD at 7:14 AM on January 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
All of this said, many tenants rights laws and ordinances carve out smaller buildings and especially smaller buildings whose owners are the primary tenants with an upstairs or parlor apartment rented out. But it's worth a couple of calls to see if someone at the City will intercede with your landlord.
posted by MattD at 7:14 AM on January 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is a really bad match. There's no way a family with a toddler is going to be able to keep it so quiet that your landlord is going to be happy living a floor below. Your baby is learning to walk! She should get to do that without you being hassled about it. You should be able to cheer her, not worry about how light her footfalls are.
Depending on your jurisdiction you might be able to pressure the landlord into not harassing you, but he'll want you out, and he'll be looking for a reason. It's not a great way to live.
In the short term, you can try to either placate him (with personal chats instead of texts, meeting the baby and letting him see how cute she is, inviting him to see how you've done everything possible to pad the place) or find someone to tell him he's in violation of family anti-discrimination rules (probably want to research whether they apply to your building, before trying that tack.) But long term, this doesn't sound like a great setup for your family. Kids make noise, and more as they get older. You think learning to walk is noisy? If your girl is like mine, soon she will be careening around your house like a bat out of hell, and she won't slow down for ten years.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:42 AM on January 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Depending on your jurisdiction you might be able to pressure the landlord into not harassing you, but he'll want you out, and he'll be looking for a reason. It's not a great way to live.
In the short term, you can try to either placate him (with personal chats instead of texts, meeting the baby and letting him see how cute she is, inviting him to see how you've done everything possible to pad the place) or find someone to tell him he's in violation of family anti-discrimination rules (probably want to research whether they apply to your building, before trying that tack.) But long term, this doesn't sound like a great setup for your family. Kids make noise, and more as they get older. You think learning to walk is noisy? If your girl is like mine, soon she will be careening around your house like a bat out of hell, and she won't slow down for ten years.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:42 AM on January 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ugh. Even if you have legal standing, the hassle, expense, and discomfort and uncertainty of living somewhere you’re not wanted might make finding a better place the best solution for you.
posted by kapers at 8:10 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by kapers at 8:10 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, moving time.
We live in a downstairs apartment. Upstairs neighbors are very quiet and considerate. We still hear them walk across the floor. I cannot imagine how even the quietest toddler would sound if there was one up there.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:28 AM on January 6, 2018
We live in a downstairs apartment. Upstairs neighbors are very quiet and considerate. We still hear them walk across the floor. I cannot imagine how even the quietest toddler would sound if there was one up there.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:28 AM on January 6, 2018
If you want to take things to the next level, you could push back on the grounds that it's illegal under the Fair Housing Act to discriminate on the basis of "familial status," i.e., that you have children. Characterizing normal and reasonable toddler noise as excessive effectively bars any parents with children from living there.
That said, I think small, owner-occupied properties are exempt from at least some parts of the FHA. But you can let your landlord be the one to figure that out. Also, there might be a state law that includes similar protections and doesn't include the same exemptions, so you could research that.
posted by slidell at 11:05 AM on January 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
That said, I think small, owner-occupied properties are exempt from at least some parts of the FHA. But you can let your landlord be the one to figure that out. Also, there might be a state law that includes similar protections and doesn't include the same exemptions, so you could research that.
posted by slidell at 11:05 AM on January 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
That said, I think small, owner-occupied properties are exempt from at least some parts of the FHA. But you can let your landlord be the one to figure that out
My reason for suggesting this, by the way, isn't "get away with what you can get away with by lying." It's more like, ethical landlords who try to do the right thing will care about this, and unethical landlords, well, yeah, let those guys do their own research. The owner-occupied exemptions do exist for a good reason -- if the noise bothers a renter, they can just move, but if it's your home that you own, you can't -- but having to say "well, technically we're exempt" may still make some people think twice.
posted by slidell at 11:31 AM on January 6, 2018
My reason for suggesting this, by the way, isn't "get away with what you can get away with by lying." It's more like, ethical landlords who try to do the right thing will care about this, and unethical landlords, well, yeah, let those guys do their own research. The owner-occupied exemptions do exist for a good reason -- if the noise bothers a renter, they can just move, but if it's your home that you own, you can't -- but having to say "well, technically we're exempt" may still make some people think twice.
posted by slidell at 11:31 AM on January 6, 2018
You say that the apartment is all hardwood, except for the play area. Perhaps something as simple as adding carpet and padding - it can be cheap and not something you want to keep - to the rest of the hardwood would help, if you really want to try to stay in your apartment. I think adding a softer surface would help with direct noise, toys falling, child jumping, as well as being a generally sound-absorbing material. If the apartment still doesn't work out, you could likely sell the rugs if you prefer hardwood.
posted by citygirl at 4:04 PM on January 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by citygirl at 4:04 PM on January 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
If the landlord won't put down carpet and underpadding for you, for his own sake, then I'd say he really regrets renting that apartment. I would also say he's never going to be happy no matter who he rents it to. Imagine, if he rents to a single (quiet, never there) person, who then breaks a leg and is on crutches for several months - madness.
The landlord is unreasonable. Do what you can to move without penalty. In fact, if he has to pay you to move, all the better. I have a bad feeling about his guy.
posted by Enid Lareg at 7:18 PM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
The landlord is unreasonable. Do what you can to move without penalty. In fact, if he has to pay you to move, all the better. I have a bad feeling about his guy.
posted by Enid Lareg at 7:18 PM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
IAAL, IANYL, IANANJL.
A lawyer could probably write a dryly worded letter that would get the landlord/owner to realize that their expectations are not reasonable, and furthermore are outside the lease, and that they would be very likely to lose in court.
But I don't think that will bring harmony unless it's accompanied by some proposal that gets you out of there without a penalty, within a reasonably quick time-frame. And you may be able to do that without a lawyer's help, depending on how the rapport is with him at this point and your experience of his personality.
It's a bad match. The owner needs to lease to someone more like himself. I agree that this guy has the potential to get weird, but given an easy out he'll probably take it.
On the other hand, if you do really want to stay (for the duration of the lease) then I'd at least consult with a lawyer. The city-paid tenant's attorney sounds like a good first step.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:06 AM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
A lawyer could probably write a dryly worded letter that would get the landlord/owner to realize that their expectations are not reasonable, and furthermore are outside the lease, and that they would be very likely to lose in court.
But I don't think that will bring harmony unless it's accompanied by some proposal that gets you out of there without a penalty, within a reasonably quick time-frame. And you may be able to do that without a lawyer's help, depending on how the rapport is with him at this point and your experience of his personality.
It's a bad match. The owner needs to lease to someone more like himself. I agree that this guy has the potential to get weird, but given an easy out he'll probably take it.
On the other hand, if you do really want to stay (for the duration of the lease) then I'd at least consult with a lawyer. The city-paid tenant's attorney sounds like a good first step.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:06 AM on January 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Architect/Small time landlord here. Seconding carpet and padding, he should have installed it before he rented the place if he's that noise sensitive, i.e., it's his own d**m fault. I don't think I'd want to rent from him in any case.
posted by rudd135 at 4:36 PM on January 7, 2018
posted by rudd135 at 4:36 PM on January 7, 2018
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Can the toddler run around somewhere downstairs?
Could be worth getting on friendly terms- invite them over (yummy baked goods?) Show them what you've done to prevent noise, have toddler be cute, ask them for ideas.
But seriously, they rented the upstairs to a family, who has been extremely reasonable!
Good luck.
posted by freethefeet at 1:44 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]