Massachusetts License, Speeding Ticket in Vermont
October 26, 2017 7:18 AM Subscribe
Pay or Fight (my first ever speeding ticket) in Vermont?
Got my first ever speeding ticket for $150 on Route 4 in Vermont for 65 in a 50, I'm a Massachusetts Resident with a Massachusetts License. I don't think I was doing 65, I told the officer I thought the speed-limit was 55 and I was doing 55 - 60.
Will this ticket affect my insurance? Is it worth driving 4 hours, getting a car rental as my wife will need our car, and a day off work to fight this ticket or just pay the $150.
Mass isn't part of the Drivers License Compact, which means a speeding ticket in Vermont won't affect my Mass License (unless I don't pay the ticket).
What is unclear to me is will this affect my car insurance and is it worth it to go to court and try and fight the ticket and have it reduced? And is it possible to have it reduced without having to hire a lawyer.
Anyone with experience fighting a speeding ticket in White River Junction VT with an out-of-state license.
Got my first ever speeding ticket for $150 on Route 4 in Vermont for 65 in a 50, I'm a Massachusetts Resident with a Massachusetts License. I don't think I was doing 65, I told the officer I thought the speed-limit was 55 and I was doing 55 - 60.
Will this ticket affect my insurance? Is it worth driving 4 hours, getting a car rental as my wife will need our car, and a day off work to fight this ticket or just pay the $150.
Mass isn't part of the Drivers License Compact, which means a speeding ticket in Vermont won't affect my Mass License (unless I don't pay the ticket).
What is unclear to me is will this affect my car insurance and is it worth it to go to court and try and fight the ticket and have it reduced? And is it possible to have it reduced without having to hire a lawyer.
Anyone with experience fighting a speeding ticket in White River Junction VT with an out-of-state license.
Where was this? If it was on the "Expressway" portion of Route 4 west of Rutland, may have some luck with it. Most anywhere else, 65 is pretty fast for what's mostly 2-lane non-divided road.
posted by kaszeta at 8:02 AM on October 26, 2017
posted by kaszeta at 8:02 AM on October 26, 2017
Got my first ever speeding ticket for $150 on Route 4 in Vermont for 65 in a 50, I'm a Massachusetts Resident with a Massachusetts License. I don't think I was doing 65, I told the officer I thought the speed-limit was 55 and I was doing 55 - 60.
Do you have any evidence the speed limit was not 50 mph?
Do you have any evidence you were not going 65 mph?
If the answer to these two questions is "no" - which I think it is - it's unclear to me what you expect to get out of challenging this in court. This is highly dependent on the court you end up going to, but as far as I've seen in the states I've been in, going to court to challenge a ticket where the facts are not in dispute is a waste of time.
posted by saeculorum at 8:27 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
Do you have any evidence the speed limit was not 50 mph?
Do you have any evidence you were not going 65 mph?
If the answer to these two questions is "no" - which I think it is - it's unclear to me what you expect to get out of challenging this in court. This is highly dependent on the court you end up going to, but as far as I've seen in the states I've been in, going to court to challenge a ticket where the facts are not in dispute is a waste of time.
posted by saeculorum at 8:27 AM on October 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
I almost always fight tickets, but only in local jurisdictions. However, I have had some luck in non-local jurisdictions actually writing to the appropriate person and explaining my story and why I can't make a personal appearance. You will need to call the court first to figure out who the right person is, and write the letter, but these things are almost free compared to renting a car and driving to Vermont.
I will also say that my approach usually results in a reduction rather than a removal of the fine, because most jurisdictions are willing to waive half the fine simply to avoid the bother of having to go to court. If you really want to have this not hit your record, you probably need to engage a local attorney. It will cost more than the money saved, but it will probably keep it from hitting your record, and you won't have to make an appearance.
posted by ubiquity at 8:38 AM on October 26, 2017
I will also say that my approach usually results in a reduction rather than a removal of the fine, because most jurisdictions are willing to waive half the fine simply to avoid the bother of having to go to court. If you really want to have this not hit your record, you probably need to engage a local attorney. It will cost more than the money saved, but it will probably keep it from hitting your record, and you won't have to make an appearance.
posted by ubiquity at 8:38 AM on October 26, 2017
Whether it would be worth it or not depends on too many specifics to weigh in on, but
it's unclear to me what you expect to get out of challenging this in court
It's commonplace for localities to offer a non-moving violation with no points and maybe a somewhat reduced fine instead of a moving violation, because they don't want the hassle and the nonzero chance of losing. They just want the money.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:32 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
it's unclear to me what you expect to get out of challenging this in court
It's commonplace for localities to offer a non-moving violation with no points and maybe a somewhat reduced fine instead of a moving violation, because they don't want the hassle and the nonzero chance of losing. They just want the money.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:32 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
It is sometimes very much worthwhile to show up, some jurisdictions will allow you to do online traffic school and then dismiss the ticket, others will dismiss or reduce to a non moving violation if you are reasonably polite and have a clean record. Others will be annoyed and will waste your whole morning waiting for a hearing in which the judge is very uninterested in your carefully parsed wording about your speed being safe for the conditions.
I would call the court and see if they offer driving school instead, but otherwise I’d just pay the ticket if it means driving so far and renting a car. You could also call up some local attorneys to see how much they charge to represent people in these situations, it can be surpringly affordable (but also varies a lot).
posted by skewed at 10:59 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
I would call the court and see if they offer driving school instead, but otherwise I’d just pay the ticket if it means driving so far and renting a car. You could also call up some local attorneys to see how much they charge to represent people in these situations, it can be surpringly affordable (but also varies a lot).
posted by skewed at 10:59 AM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: OK, so I've done this exact thing. MA license, MA resident, ticket for 65 in a 50 on a state route in Vermont.
I called around to several lawyers. Rates were very high. Lowest I found was I think $450 everything included, but $500-$600 was more common. One of the lawyers I talked to suggested that I just call the police officer who pulled me over and talk to him, because this is Vermont, and apparently it's small enough that you can do that. I figured, why not?
I called the non-emergency police number and asked to speak to the officer listed on my ticket. Eventually I was put through; I left a message; he called me back. I asked him that "given my previous excellent driving record, with no prior violations, if he'd be willing to convert this to a non-moving violation." He was very considerate and said he'd have to ask his boss. Called me back again and said the boss didn't allow it. But then he asked me if I was more concerned about the points or the fine. I said the points. He said, how about I record it as a no-points violation if you pay the fine? I was like, sure! But I did have to show up in court, with the officer, in a relatively far-away Vermont courthouse, to make all this come through on the paperwork. If your eyebrows are raised at how this all went down, believe me, mine were raised even higher.
Sure enough, my insurance wasn't affected, and I just transferred my license/plates/registration/insurance to Vermont residency today (!) and the insurance agent said she couldn't see that ticket in my driving history. (In theory she should have been able to see a no-points offense, but whatever.)
Regardless of whether the above, uh, idiosyncratic approach works for you, I will say that it's almost always worth it to fight a ticket. Get a lawyer who specializes in traffic court and knows the ins and outs, can get you a court date with the more lenient judge, knows which strategies work and which ones don't. Typically they don't argue things like "were you going 65 or 60" at all. Instead they look at your driving history and try to argue that you're a good driver and convert the moving violation (with points) to something like a parking ticket or an expired inspection sticker (no points). And if you win, you don't have to worry about a potential 5-7 years of increased insurance premiums. Most importantly, if you're later in a significant ticket/accident, that can be the only thing on your record, and you can keep claiming that you're a "good and responsible driver." The fewer violations you have on your record, the better. That can be worth the lawyer fees (plus you don't have to show up in court as the lawyer can go for you).
posted by danceswithlight at 12:36 PM on October 26, 2017
I called around to several lawyers. Rates were very high. Lowest I found was I think $450 everything included, but $500-$600 was more common. One of the lawyers I talked to suggested that I just call the police officer who pulled me over and talk to him, because this is Vermont, and apparently it's small enough that you can do that. I figured, why not?
I called the non-emergency police number and asked to speak to the officer listed on my ticket. Eventually I was put through; I left a message; he called me back. I asked him that "given my previous excellent driving record, with no prior violations, if he'd be willing to convert this to a non-moving violation." He was very considerate and said he'd have to ask his boss. Called me back again and said the boss didn't allow it. But then he asked me if I was more concerned about the points or the fine. I said the points. He said, how about I record it as a no-points violation if you pay the fine? I was like, sure! But I did have to show up in court, with the officer, in a relatively far-away Vermont courthouse, to make all this come through on the paperwork. If your eyebrows are raised at how this all went down, believe me, mine were raised even higher.
Sure enough, my insurance wasn't affected, and I just transferred my license/plates/registration/insurance to Vermont residency today (!) and the insurance agent said she couldn't see that ticket in my driving history. (In theory she should have been able to see a no-points offense, but whatever.)
Regardless of whether the above, uh, idiosyncratic approach works for you, I will say that it's almost always worth it to fight a ticket. Get a lawyer who specializes in traffic court and knows the ins and outs, can get you a court date with the more lenient judge, knows which strategies work and which ones don't. Typically they don't argue things like "were you going 65 or 60" at all. Instead they look at your driving history and try to argue that you're a good driver and convert the moving violation (with points) to something like a parking ticket or an expired inspection sticker (no points). And if you win, you don't have to worry about a potential 5-7 years of increased insurance premiums. Most importantly, if you're later in a significant ticket/accident, that can be the only thing on your record, and you can keep claiming that you're a "good and responsible driver." The fewer violations you have on your record, the better. That can be worth the lawyer fees (plus you don't have to show up in court as the lawyer can go for you).
posted by danceswithlight at 12:36 PM on October 26, 2017
You admit you were speeding. Even if you weren’t going 65 in a 50, you admit to going 55-60 in a 50.
It would be unethical to fight this. You were speeding and should pay the penalty.
I speed often. Speeding carries a risk of tickets. I find that I’m comfortable accepting that risk. If you aren’t, don’t speed.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 1:43 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
It would be unethical to fight this. You were speeding and should pay the penalty.
I speed often. Speeding carries a risk of tickets. I find that I’m comfortable accepting that risk. If you aren’t, don’t speed.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 1:43 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
It would be unethical to fight this. You were speeding and should pay the penalty.
It would be unethical to lie about it (and generally ineffective to try equivocate or argue you were driving safely). But there’s nothing unethical about asking for leniency.
posted by skewed at 2:00 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
It would be unethical to lie about it (and generally ineffective to try equivocate or argue you were driving safely). But there’s nothing unethical about asking for leniency.
posted by skewed at 2:00 PM on October 26, 2017 [1 favorite]
But there’s nothing unethical about asking for leniency.
It’s a waste of state resources. OP would effectively be stealing money and time that VT could have spent on a more worthwhile cause, such as traffic court for someone who truly was obeying the law.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:38 AM on October 27, 2017
It’s a waste of state resources. OP would effectively be stealing money and time that VT could have spent on a more worthwhile cause, such as traffic court for someone who truly was obeying the law.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:38 AM on October 27, 2017
There's usually a fee involved in going to traffic court. Even if there isn't, I see no reason to worry about "wasting state resources" if you want to exercise your rights. And going to court either to dispute the facts or to ask for leniency is certainly your right.But there’s nothing unethical about asking for leniency.It’s a waste of state resources. OP would effectively be stealing money and time that VT could have spent on a more worthwhile cause, such as traffic court for someone who truly was obeying the law.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 3:54 PM on October 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I fought a ticket and won in Athol, MA. It wasn't a court so much as a room with a non-judge guy and a representative of the PD that gave me the ticket.
I'm not a lawyer or anything, but in my opinion going 65 in a 50 zone you have a pretty good chance of fighting it, especially if the road was dry and it was daytime. Better if you have a good driving record. Even better if this is your first ticket.
There are techniques for fighting tickets out there if you google them.
My technique was to admit nothing and to not accept reduction. "I was going at what I believe was a reasonable rate of speed, I was driving in safe conditions, and I do not believe I was going significantly over the speed limit. I am a responsible, safety-cautious adult with a good recent driving record. I had some tickets as a teen but as you can see from my recent history I grew out of that."
If you admitted to the officer you thought you were going 60, that could work against you. But if the road was such that it seemed like 55 would be a reasonable speed limit, that could help. In the future, admit nothing.
Whether or not it's worth the cost of driving up there, I can't say. Do the math. You could call your insurance company and ask what the impact will be and for how many years.
posted by bondcliff at 7:58 AM on October 26, 2017