USA is to slavery as Germany is to Holocaust
October 18, 2017 2:49 PM Subscribe
Do all countries have an iconic or original sin?
The USA's most iconic historical sins are slavery and the genocide of Native Americans. Germany is stained by the Holocaust. The UK is tainted by colonialism. France has the Reign of Terror. What are other iconic national sins?
The USA's most iconic historical sins are slavery and the genocide of Native Americans. Germany is stained by the Holocaust. The UK is tainted by colonialism. France has the Reign of Terror. What are other iconic national sins?
Best answer: Canada - Residential schools and anything involving First Nations or Metis peoples.
posted by Kitteh at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2017 [18 favorites]
The history of the world is a history of imperialism, enslavement, and bloodshed. Even Iceland (the least contentious nation on Earth who has never invaded anybody (?) and had zero native population to kill before 874) was first permanently settled by a man who brought two slaves.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:13 PM on October 18, 2017 [24 favorites]
Best answer: Australia - slavery and genocide and oppression of the Aboriginal peoples, in particular the 'Frontier Wars'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:25 PM on October 18, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:25 PM on October 18, 2017 [13 favorites]
I don't know if 'original sin of a nation' is the most useful frame of reference here. Is slavery in the US really analogous to the Holocaust in Germany? Both are atrocious crimes against humanity, of course, but otherwise they are different in their causes, effects, roots in national culture, and duration; and both are equally different from the UK's adventures in colonialism. What do these things have in common? And why would a nation have only one sin that is so egregious, or early, that it counts as the original sin? For example, I'm not sure what makes British colonialism more of an 'original sin' of the nation than the War of the Roses, or the Civil War, or the Highland clearances. French colonialism was as bad as the Reign of Terror, in a different way. The Great Leap Forward in China was pretty bad but so was the Three Kingdoms period.
If you are asking if every country/nation has some kind of history of violence and conflict and brutality, the answer is yes. Even a tiny fragment of a country like Bhutan has had its civil wars and conflict and so on. But I don't know if we get a lot of insight into large-scale and historically specific crimes against humanity, like slavery and genocide, by locating them within the general global history of violence? And I don't know how to identify the original sin of any country or people, with the exception of those rare nations--like the USA--that tell themselves stories about their foundation in mythic ideological terms. Slavery and the genocide of Native Americans are certainly the dark shadows of the otherwise beautiful American myth about the founding of America. But that's not a statement about the objective history of the place, it's a statement about its culture and the ideological conflict--between white supremacy and liberalism--at the heart of that culture.
posted by Aravis76 at 3:34 PM on October 18, 2017 [65 favorites]
If you are asking if every country/nation has some kind of history of violence and conflict and brutality, the answer is yes. Even a tiny fragment of a country like Bhutan has had its civil wars and conflict and so on. But I don't know if we get a lot of insight into large-scale and historically specific crimes against humanity, like slavery and genocide, by locating them within the general global history of violence? And I don't know how to identify the original sin of any country or people, with the exception of those rare nations--like the USA--that tell themselves stories about their foundation in mythic ideological terms. Slavery and the genocide of Native Americans are certainly the dark shadows of the otherwise beautiful American myth about the founding of America. But that's not a statement about the objective history of the place, it's a statement about its culture and the ideological conflict--between white supremacy and liberalism--at the heart of that culture.
posted by Aravis76 at 3:34 PM on October 18, 2017 [65 favorites]
India, Pakistan: Partition. (Not a consensus view, particularly who is to blame.)
I second Aravis76' warning about conflating different kinds of sins. The Holocaust was perpetuated by a modern fully formed nation, for instance. Its methods and results are very different from, say, the genocide of Native Americans.
posted by Nelson at 3:47 PM on October 18, 2017 [4 favorites]
I second Aravis76' warning about conflating different kinds of sins. The Holocaust was perpetuated by a modern fully formed nation, for instance. Its methods and results are very different from, say, the genocide of Native Americans.
posted by Nelson at 3:47 PM on October 18, 2017 [4 favorites]
I would also argue that the groundwork for much of the brutal violence and war in post-colonial countries' histories - things like the Rwandan genocide, or the Congo civil war, or Kenyan ethnic cleansing after recent elections - was laid by colonial nations. If Belgium hadn't BRUTALLY colonized and exploited what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda, and Burundi, and codified racial and ethnic characters in the way they did, the Rwandan genocide (and earlier Burundian genocides) would either not have happened at all, or happened in very different ways.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:45 PM on October 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 4:45 PM on October 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
New Zealand - failure of colonial government to honour the Treaty of Waitangi.
posted by dydecker at 5:02 PM on October 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by dydecker at 5:02 PM on October 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
Doing nasty things to Jewish people has been a common go-to for European rulers who want to encourage populist nationalism. Edward I expelled the Jews from England in 1290, in between colonizing the Welsh and defeating the Scots. After a couple of centuries of back-and-forth, Charles VI expelled the Jews from France in 1394, in the middle of the Hundred Years' War against England. Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jews not long after they re-united Spain in 1492. When the Romanov Tsars decided that they needed to pretend they were Russian rulers of a Russian nation, they passed the May Laws in 1882 and turned a blind eye to pogroms.
Those are a few of the many examples.
posted by clawsoon at 5:36 PM on October 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Those are a few of the many examples.
posted by clawsoon at 5:36 PM on October 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
You really need to pin down what you mean by "iconic national sins" if you want to get any useful answers (i.e., something other than a laundry list of "bad things that have happened in various countries," which is what you're getting now and which anyone could compile by a quick round of googling). "The UK is tainted by colonialism": yes, but in what sense is that an "iconic national sin"? "France has the Reign of Terror": ditto, plus a lot of people (e.g., the Bolsheviks) have thought the Reign of Terror was a good and necessary thing. From the first response: "Soviet Russia: Ukrainian famine"; why is that any more iconic than any of the many other horrible things Soviet Russia did, starting with the random executions at its very beginning and continuing with the gulag and the repressions of many minority populations? As it is, this question seems to me pretty much chatfilter ("tell me whatever bad national events pop into your head"), and you're pretty much getting the most obvious answers.
I mean, you could say the original sin of Britain was pushing the Celts and their culture to the fringes, or you could say it was the invasion of France leading to centuries of war; you could say the original sin of France was the Roman invasion that displaced the Celts, or the Frankish invasion that displaced Roman culture. What exactly are you looking for?
posted by languagehat at 5:54 PM on October 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
I mean, you could say the original sin of Britain was pushing the Celts and their culture to the fringes, or you could say it was the invasion of France leading to centuries of war; you could say the original sin of France was the Roman invasion that displaced the Celts, or the Frankish invasion that displaced Roman culture. What exactly are you looking for?
posted by languagehat at 5:54 PM on October 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
People above make valid theoretical and framework points.
Setting that aside, for the original Chinese sin, closer to the genocide of native and aboriginal peoples for the US, Australia, and so on, I'd argue that the building of the Qin portion of the Great Wall of China deserves consideration. The Qin is generally considered to be the first dynasty to have united anything close to the historical conception of China under a centralized government, and the death toll for the portion of the wall built then is typically estimated in hundred thousands, with high estimates of up to a million.
In 220 BC.
For comparison, 400 years later, the total population of China is estimated at between 10-11 million people.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:02 PM on October 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Setting that aside, for the original Chinese sin, closer to the genocide of native and aboriginal peoples for the US, Australia, and so on, I'd argue that the building of the Qin portion of the Great Wall of China deserves consideration. The Qin is generally considered to be the first dynasty to have united anything close to the historical conception of China under a centralized government, and the death toll for the portion of the wall built then is typically estimated in hundred thousands, with high estimates of up to a million.
In 220 BC.
For comparison, 400 years later, the total population of China is estimated at between 10-11 million people.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:02 PM on October 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
What I've read about Botswana suggests that its history is free of major stains, though I haven't researched it thoroughly.
posted by clawsoon at 6:02 PM on October 18, 2017
posted by clawsoon at 6:02 PM on October 18, 2017
you're pretty much getting the most obvious answers.
That's an expectation when you ask for a list of iconic things.
posted by clawsoon at 6:07 PM on October 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
That's an expectation when you ask for a list of iconic things.
posted by clawsoon at 6:07 PM on October 18, 2017 [5 favorites]
Japan: Rape of Nanking.
Indonesia: Mass killings of 1965-66.
Cambodia: Killing Fields.
Nigeria: Biafran War.
Liberia: Civil War involving child soldiers committing atrocities.
Algeria: FLN massacres.
Argentina: Death squads and disappearances in the Dirty War.
El Salvador: Death squads, child soldiers, and the assassination of Archbishop Romero while offering Mass in its Civil War.
Anybody got anything on Tahiti?
posted by clawsoon at 6:26 PM on October 18, 2017
Indonesia: Mass killings of 1965-66.
Cambodia: Killing Fields.
Nigeria: Biafran War.
Liberia: Civil War involving child soldiers committing atrocities.
Algeria: FLN massacres.
Argentina: Death squads and disappearances in the Dirty War.
El Salvador: Death squads, child soldiers, and the assassination of Archbishop Romero while offering Mass in its Civil War.
Anybody got anything on Tahiti?
posted by clawsoon at 6:26 PM on October 18, 2017
I see a huge difference in the concept of an "iconic sin" (i.e. what really terrible thing did this nation inflict on the world?) and an "original sin" (i.e. what really terrible thing was this nation founded on?)
So while many many atrocities may be considered iconic sins, I would venture to say that the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide are horrific stains on their respective countries' histories, they aren't original sin. In America, the horror of slavery was literally written into our founding documents (and the single drafted statement condemning slavery was deleted). That's about as original as it gets. I think Aravis76 gets it right by pointing out that the very concept of "national original sin" presupposes a national Grand Narrative, which may not apply everywhere.
posted by basalganglia at 6:27 PM on October 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
So while many many atrocities may be considered iconic sins, I would venture to say that the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide are horrific stains on their respective countries' histories, they aren't original sin. In America, the horror of slavery was literally written into our founding documents (and the single drafted statement condemning slavery was deleted). That's about as original as it gets. I think Aravis76 gets it right by pointing out that the very concept of "national original sin" presupposes a national Grand Narrative, which may not apply everywhere.
posted by basalganglia at 6:27 PM on October 18, 2017 [9 favorites]
Australia - slavery and genocide and oppression of the Aboriginal peoples, in particular the 'Frontier Wars'.
Adding to this, and in a modern context, Australia is still sinning with it's disproportionate incarceration rates and deaths in custody of Aboriginal people; the ongoing desecration of family and children through the Stolen Generations, and our disgusting treatment of refugees in off-shore detention centres.
It seems like the 'original sin' for all cultures and countries is an overt denial of human rights.
posted by Thella at 7:17 PM on October 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
Adding to this, and in a modern context, Australia is still sinning with it's disproportionate incarceration rates and deaths in custody of Aboriginal people; the ongoing desecration of family and children through the Stolen Generations, and our disgusting treatment of refugees in off-shore detention centres.
It seems like the 'original sin' for all cultures and countries is an overt denial of human rights.
posted by Thella at 7:17 PM on October 18, 2017 [3 favorites]
No, not all countries have this -- check out micronations, many of which were started by someone buying an island or structure, and you'll probably find some examples.
If those aren't suitable for your purposes, you could look at other very small nations, such as the many island nations. I imagine you will find that many of them have whatever your undefined "original sin" is, but you might find some that do not.
posted by yohko at 8:09 PM on October 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
If those aren't suitable for your purposes, you could look at other very small nations, such as the many island nations. I imagine you will find that many of them have whatever your undefined "original sin" is, but you might find some that do not.
posted by yohko at 8:09 PM on October 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
Actually I think quite a lot of countries are relatively blameless. Even looking at Europe (that cess-pit of recirculating sinfulness) France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium and more are clearly all 'tainted with colonialism' as well as Britain, but otherwise - Ireland, Switzerland, Norway? Yes, I can think of bad things these countries have done, but nothing that approaches the status of an iconic original sin imo. Maybe I just don't know enough history.
posted by Segundus at 2:13 AM on October 19, 2017
posted by Segundus at 2:13 AM on October 19, 2017
Switzerland - Banker to dictators, despots and criminals. Looted Nazi gold, Mobutu, Sani Abacha, Salinas, etc. For decades, the go-to place if you wanted to hide the proceeds of your crime and violence.
Norway - The Vikings violently pillaged, conquered and colonized from Ireland to Russia to Spain. (A bit of a stretch if you're thinking about the modern nation-state, I'll admit.)
posted by clawsoon at 3:07 AM on October 19, 2017
Norway - The Vikings violently pillaged, conquered and colonized from Ireland to Russia to Spain. (A bit of a stretch if you're thinking about the modern nation-state, I'll admit.)
posted by clawsoon at 3:07 AM on October 19, 2017
South Africa: Apartheid.
Israel: Palestine.
posted by Gomez_in_the_South at 3:56 AM on October 19, 2017
Israel: Palestine.
posted by Gomez_in_the_South at 3:56 AM on October 19, 2017
I did say I knew of bad things these countries had done.
Allowing your bankers to provide services to bad people isn't quite the same as actually being the bad people, and it was all a long time after William Tell.
On Vikings, I think Ireland was Danes, while Russia was Swedes rather than Norgs. About ten years ago the modern Danish government accepted responsibility for the Irish stuff and apologised, though no word on reparations yet. I think Spain was also Danes, or people from Danish colonies; the Emir's ambassador sent to ask them to knock it off with the terrorism went to Denmark, anyway.
I do have to grant you Olaf Haraldsson's raid on Tui in 1038, but although it was impeccably Norwegian it wasn't exactly the founding mythos of the nation.
posted by Segundus at 6:27 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Allowing your bankers to provide services to bad people isn't quite the same as actually being the bad people, and it was all a long time after William Tell.
On Vikings, I think Ireland was Danes, while Russia was Swedes rather than Norgs. About ten years ago the modern Danish government accepted responsibility for the Irish stuff and apologised, though no word on reparations yet. I think Spain was also Danes, or people from Danish colonies; the Emir's ambassador sent to ask them to knock it off with the terrorism went to Denmark, anyway.
I do have to grant you Olaf Haraldsson's raid on Tui in 1038, but although it was impeccably Norwegian it wasn't exactly the founding mythos of the nation.
posted by Segundus at 6:27 AM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
India: it is clearly the caste system. It pervades your mentality, life and everyday activities.
It is only when I moved away I realized how pervasive it was. The casual putdowns my famly STILL indulges in front of me even after I have informed them I have completely rejected the system; how every person you meet this is almost the first question you either ask or think about; every interaction you have is governed by this; elections are won and lost based on this. I cannot imagine this will ever go away. It is a great stumbling block for progress.
posted by indianbadger1 at 1:14 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
It is only when I moved away I realized how pervasive it was. The casual putdowns my famly STILL indulges in front of me even after I have informed them I have completely rejected the system; how every person you meet this is almost the first question you either ask or think about; every interaction you have is governed by this; elections are won and lost based on this. I cannot imagine this will ever go away. It is a great stumbling block for progress.
posted by indianbadger1 at 1:14 PM on October 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Sri Lanka - the 27-year civil war between Tamils and Sinhalese that led to hundreds of thousands of people massacred, missing and displaced.
posted by Everydayville at 1:25 PM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Everydayville at 1:25 PM on October 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Rwanda: Rwandan genocide
Soviet Russia: Ukrainian famine
Communist China: The Great Leap Forward
But I'm not sure that all countries would, or that they would be very original. Many European countries for example practiced colonialism.
posted by permiechickie at 3:00 PM on October 18, 2017 [5 favorites]