What happens when the hospitality runs out but she's your sister?
September 28, 2016 9:05 AM Subscribe
My sister and my 8yr old niece moved in with me 15 months ago following my sister's divorce. She was only supposed to stay a few months to save some money and then get her own place. Obviously, she's still here and there doesn't seem to be an exiting plan in sight. More snowflakes inside.
My sister and her daughter found themselves homeless following the break up of my sister's marriage. I offered to let them move in with my husband and I until they could save a little money and get a place of their own. I made her sign a lease, to which had some pretty specific terms about money saving and finding another place to live. It's been nothing but a nightmare since she moved in. In the beginning, she was giving us about $300 a month (which helped out at the time because I became unable to work) In May, I received a nice sum of money. Since then, my sister hasn't given us a dime towards anything. In fact, I've loaned her money on 2 occasions that she said she would pay back. I asked her the other day how her finances are doing and where is she on her saving goal to move out. She tells me that she's not been getting paid. Her check has been garnished and all she is getting is enough for gas money to and from work. She then tells me that she has zero in savings. (I know for a fact that she got over 4K back from taxes this year...where did that money go???) She got all tearful and said she would be out by January...but face it...it's right after Christmas and she's not going to have the money...I want her out of my house. She is a pig. She never cleans up after herself and neither does her daughter. I forced her to clean out her room a month ago and she threw out 14 bags of trash, if that gives you any kind of a clue. I'm so sick of them being here. I want my house back. I want it to just be me and my husband again. I'm getting scared that I may have to formally evict them and I really don't want my niece to be homeless...but I'm at my wits end. I figured I'd come here and see what suggestions the hivemind had for dealing with my sister. (Backstory: I'm the oldest, she's the middle child [we both have borderline personality disorder], we don't talk to our youngest brother, mom or dad will not let her and her daughter stay at their respective homes [even though they have more space than we do.] I just feel like I'm all she's got and I don't want to seemingly turn on her and cause her to self harm or kill herself. She's been a cutter and has attempted suicide in the past.) Thanks in advance!
My sister and her daughter found themselves homeless following the break up of my sister's marriage. I offered to let them move in with my husband and I until they could save a little money and get a place of their own. I made her sign a lease, to which had some pretty specific terms about money saving and finding another place to live. It's been nothing but a nightmare since she moved in. In the beginning, she was giving us about $300 a month (which helped out at the time because I became unable to work) In May, I received a nice sum of money. Since then, my sister hasn't given us a dime towards anything. In fact, I've loaned her money on 2 occasions that she said she would pay back. I asked her the other day how her finances are doing and where is she on her saving goal to move out. She tells me that she's not been getting paid. Her check has been garnished and all she is getting is enough for gas money to and from work. She then tells me that she has zero in savings. (I know for a fact that she got over 4K back from taxes this year...where did that money go???) She got all tearful and said she would be out by January...but face it...it's right after Christmas and she's not going to have the money...I want her out of my house. She is a pig. She never cleans up after herself and neither does her daughter. I forced her to clean out her room a month ago and she threw out 14 bags of trash, if that gives you any kind of a clue. I'm so sick of them being here. I want my house back. I want it to just be me and my husband again. I'm getting scared that I may have to formally evict them and I really don't want my niece to be homeless...but I'm at my wits end. I figured I'd come here and see what suggestions the hivemind had for dealing with my sister. (Backstory: I'm the oldest, she's the middle child [we both have borderline personality disorder], we don't talk to our youngest brother, mom or dad will not let her and her daughter stay at their respective homes [even though they have more space than we do.] I just feel like I'm all she's got and I don't want to seemingly turn on her and cause her to self harm or kill herself. She's been a cutter and has attempted suicide in the past.) Thanks in advance!
I want her out of my house [...] I really don't want my niece to be homeless
Which one do you want more?
posted by Leon at 9:16 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
Which one do you want more?
posted by Leon at 9:16 AM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm getting scared that I may have to formally evict them and I really don't want my niece to be homeless...but I'm at my wits end.
I know you want it to just be you and your husband again, but have you considered offering to let your niece stay on indefinitely but giving your sister a firm deadline to move out? Assuming your sister wants your niece to remain with her, that would give her an incentive to find a suitable place, but you aren't risking putting the child in a precarious situation. Obviously, you'd have some guardianship duties to take on, but that might be better than having your sister's disorder in the house, and it might be good for your niece, too.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:18 AM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
I know you want it to just be you and your husband again, but have you considered offering to let your niece stay on indefinitely but giving your sister a firm deadline to move out? Assuming your sister wants your niece to remain with her, that would give her an incentive to find a suitable place, but you aren't risking putting the child in a precarious situation. Obviously, you'd have some guardianship duties to take on, but that might be better than having your sister's disorder in the house, and it might be good for your niece, too.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 9:18 AM on September 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
Could you talk either your parents or your brother into taking in the daughter? If she's being taken care of, there are resources that can help get your sister's mental health checked and housing, etc.
posted by Everydayville at 9:21 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Everydayville at 9:21 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I want her out of my house [...] I really don't want my niece to be homeless
Yeah, I feel so bad for you, and I can't imagine how hard it is to decide between those two options, but there are no magic words you can say that will make your sister save money and clean house and move out. Probably your best option is to level with her. Tell her that the living arrangement is not sustainable, and she is going to have to move out in X months/weeks/whatever. You can help her search for affordable apartments or other housing resources in the meantime, but the deadline is the deadline. If she really ends up on the street you can re-assess your situation and think about other options (just the niece lives with you?) but nothing is going to change until you force it to.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:22 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I feel so bad for you, and I can't imagine how hard it is to decide between those two options, but there are no magic words you can say that will make your sister save money and clean house and move out. Probably your best option is to level with her. Tell her that the living arrangement is not sustainable, and she is going to have to move out in X months/weeks/whatever. You can help her search for affordable apartments or other housing resources in the meantime, but the deadline is the deadline. If she really ends up on the street you can re-assess your situation and think about other options (just the niece lives with you?) but nothing is going to change until you force it to.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:22 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh my, your emotions are high. This is going to be hard. What is the rental situation like where you live? Try and be helpful, but with an eye toward moving her out. Look around for apartments. She will not like any of the apartments you show her, but she may get antsy and look for herself if you lead her to believe you might put down a deposit and move her yourself. Depending upon your relationship, you could be extra "helpful" and try to clean up her room. A loss of privacy may be needed to reinforce the idea that the room does not belong to her. Do not be negative, but you can be insufferable. Bring out your inner concern-troll. Forcing her out may feed into feelings of abandonment, she has to want to leave for this to end the way you've expressed in your post.
posted by domo at 9:24 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by domo at 9:24 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I remember you asking a question over a year ago about urine and fleas with regards to her first moving in with you! Over a year ago. I just looked. And she is still there with you. I am so sorry, because you do not deserve this. Your sister is of course taking advantage of you. You are now the mother figure and she is complacent, and figures she's got it made in the shade, baby.
"she got all tearful"
Well, crying works for some people so of course she is going to try it. She signed a contract and apparently has broken it multiple times and you haven't done a thing so she knows full well the contract is crap. She also knows full well that your demands aren't worth listening to, and that you really don't mean what you say. She is just going to continue to ignore you until you show her that you do mean what you say. Give her a deadline and do not be swayed by any sob story (there will be lots of them) she tells you. Offer to keep her poor niece with you until sister finds a place for them to live. You're a very very VERY good sister and general all around good person and I really feel for you here, you are stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. No good deed goes unpunished, huh.
posted by the webmistress at 9:29 AM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
"she got all tearful"
Well, crying works for some people so of course she is going to try it. She signed a contract and apparently has broken it multiple times and you haven't done a thing so she knows full well the contract is crap. She also knows full well that your demands aren't worth listening to, and that you really don't mean what you say. She is just going to continue to ignore you until you show her that you do mean what you say. Give her a deadline and do not be swayed by any sob story (there will be lots of them) she tells you. Offer to keep her poor niece with you until sister finds a place for them to live. You're a very very VERY good sister and general all around good person and I really feel for you here, you are stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. No good deed goes unpunished, huh.
posted by the webmistress at 9:29 AM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
I think you should have one session with a social worker or a therapist - not for your feelings, but because those people will be aware of low-income housing that may be available for your sister, plus other options.
I also think - contra what I used to think - that setting a firm deadline and asking her to move out is okay. A friend who was once a young single mother (a delightful person and good parent, but slightly irresponsible at the time) told me a couple of years ago that getting "a kick in the pants" had actually been good for her and forced her to focus. I have also observed that among people who can work but are scattered, a deadline often helps them, and I include in this my experience having people stay with me between jobs.
Also, if she's actually homeless, she may be eligible for more services. That sounds really cold, but it's something you should check out with a social worker.
In the last instance, you can always take her back in again if things go pear shaped. That would be a bad option because it would teach the wrong lesson, but when you think this through, remember that even if you ask her to leave, you are not permanently saying "I would never help you even if you were unconscious in the snow, you will never live with me again".
Also, can you talk with your other family members? Could all of you together subsidize part of a cheap apartment/trailer rental/etc for her? So often it's the living with people that's harder than giving them money.
I have housed people in various degrees of distress a number of times over the years. I've learned that while it's important to be able to put up with some inconvenience and expense because it's your duty, you should not force yourself to put up with truly destructive and immiserating conditions except in the very short term on an emergency basis. I've also learned that in general, people who are capable of holding a job and functioning normally most of the time can get it together when they really need to. Sometimes it is actually kind and supportive to say firmly "I know you're capable of X, and I need you to do X"*.
*Sometimes people are in so much distress that they just can't, and that's a different story. I'm not saying "oh, just anyone can get a job and support themselves and people with mental health issues should bootstrap themselves etc etc".
posted by Frowner at 9:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
I also think - contra what I used to think - that setting a firm deadline and asking her to move out is okay. A friend who was once a young single mother (a delightful person and good parent, but slightly irresponsible at the time) told me a couple of years ago that getting "a kick in the pants" had actually been good for her and forced her to focus. I have also observed that among people who can work but are scattered, a deadline often helps them, and I include in this my experience having people stay with me between jobs.
Also, if she's actually homeless, she may be eligible for more services. That sounds really cold, but it's something you should check out with a social worker.
In the last instance, you can always take her back in again if things go pear shaped. That would be a bad option because it would teach the wrong lesson, but when you think this through, remember that even if you ask her to leave, you are not permanently saying "I would never help you even if you were unconscious in the snow, you will never live with me again".
Also, can you talk with your other family members? Could all of you together subsidize part of a cheap apartment/trailer rental/etc for her? So often it's the living with people that's harder than giving them money.
I have housed people in various degrees of distress a number of times over the years. I've learned that while it's important to be able to put up with some inconvenience and expense because it's your duty, you should not force yourself to put up with truly destructive and immiserating conditions except in the very short term on an emergency basis. I've also learned that in general, people who are capable of holding a job and functioning normally most of the time can get it together when they really need to. Sometimes it is actually kind and supportive to say firmly "I know you're capable of X, and I need you to do X"*.
*Sometimes people are in so much distress that they just can't, and that's a different story. I'm not saying "oh, just anyone can get a job and support themselves and people with mental health issues should bootstrap themselves etc etc".
posted by Frowner at 9:30 AM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
A couple financial things to think about:
1) Never give your sister another penny; whether you call it a loan or a gift you'll never see any of it ever again.
2) I've got to question the "garnishment": do you have actual proof that any part of her paycheck is being garnished, for instance proof of that garnishment listed among the deductions on her paystubs? And, too, I've never heard of a garnishment that takes that much of a person's pay. I suspect she's lying: either she's lying about there being any garnishment of her check or the amount being garnished, or heck she might have even lost her job and be lying about working.
3) What about child support? It's been 15 months, so is your sister getting any child support from her ex, and if not why not?
Honestly, I'd say go ahead and give her an official notification that her tenancy is up as of January 1st --- that's three months from now, which should be more than enough additional time for Sister to get herself an apartment. And don't let her quilt-trip you with any kind of 'oh, that'll be so hard because it's Christmas!': she could've moved out any time in the last fifteen months but she chose not to.
posted by easily confused at 9:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
1) Never give your sister another penny; whether you call it a loan or a gift you'll never see any of it ever again.
2) I've got to question the "garnishment": do you have actual proof that any part of her paycheck is being garnished, for instance proof of that garnishment listed among the deductions on her paystubs? And, too, I've never heard of a garnishment that takes that much of a person's pay. I suspect she's lying: either she's lying about there being any garnishment of her check or the amount being garnished, or heck she might have even lost her job and be lying about working.
3) What about child support? It's been 15 months, so is your sister getting any child support from her ex, and if not why not?
Honestly, I'd say go ahead and give her an official notification that her tenancy is up as of January 1st --- that's three months from now, which should be more than enough additional time for Sister to get herself an apartment. And don't let her quilt-trip you with any kind of 'oh, that'll be so hard because it's Christmas!': she could've moved out any time in the last fifteen months but she chose not to.
posted by easily confused at 9:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes!!! The fleas and the urine...who could forget??? There hasn't been any rental situation since May. We own our home and I drew up the lease when she moved in because she came infested with fleas and a urine soaked mattress from her then 7 year old! At least there are no fleas...
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 9:44 AM on September 28, 2016
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 9:44 AM on September 28, 2016
I agree with Frowner, you should start with a social worker. You go by yourself first so you can ask questions and figure out what kind of agencies and services might be available to your sister and niece.
Then you need to sit down with your sister and explain that the current situation is untenable and that she's not living up to the terms of her lease and that if things continue as is it may lead to real damage in the relationship (not that there's no damage now, but that's what you need to say).
Then you need to tell your sister that she needs to be on a path to moving out and being independent and the first step on that path is to go with you to visit this social worker and get the services line up that she needs.
She can apply for Section 8 housing and at least get on a waiting list, she can apply for foodstamps, she can learn about how the local utilities provide lower billing for heat and electricity, she can get help making sure that her ex pays child-support, she can get legal aid to understand what is allowable when it comes to wage garnishment, she can get job search support or find out about scholarships to the local community college, she can find low-cost or free after-school enrichment programs for her daughter.
Maybe consider offering some matching funds to give her an incentive to save; for every two dollars she puts into a dedicated account, you put in a dollar. Maybe other family members can contribute in this way. Set up a joint account so she can't just blow the savings, but really has to use it for housing or actual living expenses.
She needs to do all of this and keep regular appointments with a social worker as a condition of staying with you. If she's not able or willing to do this, then you will have to think through the consequences you can impose that you can also live with. That's tough and I don't know what the answer is especially since there is a child involved who doesn't deserve to be punished because of her parents' inabilities to get it together. The social worker and/or therapist can help you figure this out.
posted by brookeb at 9:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Then you need to sit down with your sister and explain that the current situation is untenable and that she's not living up to the terms of her lease and that if things continue as is it may lead to real damage in the relationship (not that there's no damage now, but that's what you need to say).
Then you need to tell your sister that she needs to be on a path to moving out and being independent and the first step on that path is to go with you to visit this social worker and get the services line up that she needs.
She can apply for Section 8 housing and at least get on a waiting list, she can apply for foodstamps, she can learn about how the local utilities provide lower billing for heat and electricity, she can get help making sure that her ex pays child-support, she can get legal aid to understand what is allowable when it comes to wage garnishment, she can get job search support or find out about scholarships to the local community college, she can find low-cost or free after-school enrichment programs for her daughter.
Maybe consider offering some matching funds to give her an incentive to save; for every two dollars she puts into a dedicated account, you put in a dollar. Maybe other family members can contribute in this way. Set up a joint account so she can't just blow the savings, but really has to use it for housing or actual living expenses.
She needs to do all of this and keep regular appointments with a social worker as a condition of staying with you. If she's not able or willing to do this, then you will have to think through the consequences you can impose that you can also live with. That's tough and I don't know what the answer is especially since there is a child involved who doesn't deserve to be punished because of her parents' inabilities to get it together. The social worker and/or therapist can help you figure this out.
posted by brookeb at 9:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: No, no proof of the garnishment. She gets $67 a week in child support...but that goes for cigarettes and diet Coke...
I don't mean to sound this bitter...I just feel shit upon.
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 9:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't mean to sound this bitter...I just feel shit upon.
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 9:49 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was in a similar situation once. it caused hard feelings but now we have a good relationship again. In Al-Anon we are asked not to do for another person what they can do for themselves. We are also asked to focus on ourselves and our needs and to practice loving detachment.
Resentment can destroy relationships, and so can a failure to set and/or keep appropriate boundaries. Consider working out a date with your husband by which your sister and niece must be out, letting her know that date, and holding firm.
In my case I gathered info about resources that I shared with my relative, offered to help her brainstorm solutions, and then gave her the drop-dead move out date. She moved. She is still in a precarious situation, which is hard, but we can still talk. Either you are going to allow her to be responsible for herself, as an adult, and suffer the consequences of her choices or not and suffer yourself.
Your niece makes the situation much more challenging, of course. And so does any mental illness your sister may potentially be suffering from. This is a heartbreaking situation to be in. Do please find out what resources are available for single parents before you talk to her. If she is depressed (and why wouldn't she be?) that makes everything harder for all of you. Best of luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 9:55 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Resentment can destroy relationships, and so can a failure to set and/or keep appropriate boundaries. Consider working out a date with your husband by which your sister and niece must be out, letting her know that date, and holding firm.
In my case I gathered info about resources that I shared with my relative, offered to help her brainstorm solutions, and then gave her the drop-dead move out date. She moved. She is still in a precarious situation, which is hard, but we can still talk. Either you are going to allow her to be responsible for herself, as an adult, and suffer the consequences of her choices or not and suffer yourself.
Your niece makes the situation much more challenging, of course. And so does any mental illness your sister may potentially be suffering from. This is a heartbreaking situation to be in. Do please find out what resources are available for single parents before you talk to her. If she is depressed (and why wouldn't she be?) that makes everything harder for all of you. Best of luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 9:55 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you're in the US, your niece likely already qualifies as homeless under McKinney-Vento, which very much includes families who are living doubled-up due to economic hardship. If so, that might open up any number of social services, possibly including access to re-housing programs. Her school will be able to provide more information, though this is going to involve your sister's cooperation.
posted by teremala at 10:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by teremala at 10:02 AM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Everyone's given you good advice. I'd only add- IF it helps you with the resentment you feel- maybe it's best to think of the problem as being her depression rather than the problem being her. This doesn't mean that you fall for her sob stories or that she isn't supposed to be taking responsibility here. But the bitterness YOU'RE experiencing may very well be minimized if you choose to see this as a person who is under the influence of depression and therefore isn't going to be able to be motivated to do anything no matter what you say.
You realize it's like being at a wolf for eating one of the lambs. It's in a wolf's nature to eat prey. And it will be a wolf until it dies to become something else. (Ashes or a Bird depending on what you believe). It may not be 'nice' to eat innocent prey... but what else can you expect from a wolf? So you can take action (shoot the wolf, deter it or trap it to keep it from your flock) without suffering under the intense anger you might feel towards it, realizing that it's just doing what's in it's nature. It's not the wolf's fault it's a wolf. but it's also not your fault either. All you can do is take the action needed and you can choose to do that with or without bitterness.
Who knows? Being kicked out might give her that motivation she needs and some day in the future she may look back and even be thankful to you for doing that. Sounds a little hokey but sometimes people of a certain nature have to hit rock bottom and "die" before they can reincarnate into something of another nature.
posted by manderin at 10:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
You realize it's like being at a wolf for eating one of the lambs. It's in a wolf's nature to eat prey. And it will be a wolf until it dies to become something else. (Ashes or a Bird depending on what you believe). It may not be 'nice' to eat innocent prey... but what else can you expect from a wolf? So you can take action (shoot the wolf, deter it or trap it to keep it from your flock) without suffering under the intense anger you might feel towards it, realizing that it's just doing what's in it's nature. It's not the wolf's fault it's a wolf. but it's also not your fault either. All you can do is take the action needed and you can choose to do that with or without bitterness.
Who knows? Being kicked out might give her that motivation she needs and some day in the future she may look back and even be thankful to you for doing that. Sounds a little hokey but sometimes people of a certain nature have to hit rock bottom and "die" before they can reincarnate into something of another nature.
posted by manderin at 10:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it were me, I would sit her down, give her a talk and then a deadline. And then stick to your guns. Something like, 'Sister, I love you and niece very much, but you've been here on the condition that you look for another place to stay, which you haven't done. It's been a year now and it's not possible to have you in my home any more because of [reasons] (the things she does in terms of not helping, paying no rent, dirt, grossness, being a bad roomie, etc). I totally understand that its been so tough for you, and I have been more than willing to help you for over a year, but at this point it's obvious neither of us are really happy in this situation. I'm willing to have you stay another three months rent free if this will help you get back on your feet, but its time to think about alternate housing by January. Sis, I love so you very much and I want you to be happy independent and successful, so how can I help you help yourself so we can achieve that and meet this move out deadline together?'
Something along those lines. Be comforting but firm as heck, set a date, and remind her of it if she tries to bury her head in the sand.
Then I'd give her until January 1st. To assuage your guilty feeling about your niece, you can possibly help her check listings/write listings, go to apartment viewings with her, talk to housing assistance with her, look into single mother help or even shelters. Yes, this is a lot of work, but you want her out too and you also don't want her destitute, so the only way to do that is to guide her towards a direction where she will have options and she won't be homeless. This doesn't mean doing the work for her, but it does mean that you are probably going to have to guide her a bit and encourage her a lot.
She's always going to be upset to be evicted, there's no way to avoid that-- even though she's not entitled to feel upset and she is taking advantage of your kindness and hospitality. But its always going to be upsetting for someone to tell you they don't want you around any more. So to soften that blow, the only way I've found is to sit the person down and be compassionately candid about it. Not judgmental or condescending or angry or resentful, but to say things which allow the person to be vulnerable, save face, and make change.
In my opinion, it's obvious she's depressed by the way she's living while she's with you-- I mean, I used to do the 14 trashbag thing as a teen at the height of my depression where I just didn't give a crap. I mean, you can't fix her and you shouldn't try, but you can encourage her, and you can believe in her as best you can and be kind but firm. I totally understand you are at the end of your rope by now with her (I don't blame you at all) but being exasperated isn't going to help the situation at home and may potentially make things worse if she picks up on your resentment. Feeling like a burden can become a weird depressing catch-22. This is about trying to be positive and helping to instill some confidence in your sister, and creating steps so she can feel more empowered and take better care of herself and her daughter. I mean, I know its easier said than done, but some people need more help than others, and as I've said-- her leaving will benefit you too in the end.
If she refuses to leave even after this, then you give her notice as you have literally done all you can and its out of your hands. You shouldn't feel guilty for wanting your house back-- its not just your house, it's your life.
On preview, what Bella Donna and Brookeb have said.
posted by Dimes at 10:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Something along those lines. Be comforting but firm as heck, set a date, and remind her of it if she tries to bury her head in the sand.
Then I'd give her until January 1st. To assuage your guilty feeling about your niece, you can possibly help her check listings/write listings, go to apartment viewings with her, talk to housing assistance with her, look into single mother help or even shelters. Yes, this is a lot of work, but you want her out too and you also don't want her destitute, so the only way to do that is to guide her towards a direction where she will have options and she won't be homeless. This doesn't mean doing the work for her, but it does mean that you are probably going to have to guide her a bit and encourage her a lot.
She's always going to be upset to be evicted, there's no way to avoid that-- even though she's not entitled to feel upset and she is taking advantage of your kindness and hospitality. But its always going to be upsetting for someone to tell you they don't want you around any more. So to soften that blow, the only way I've found is to sit the person down and be compassionately candid about it. Not judgmental or condescending or angry or resentful, but to say things which allow the person to be vulnerable, save face, and make change.
In my opinion, it's obvious she's depressed by the way she's living while she's with you-- I mean, I used to do the 14 trashbag thing as a teen at the height of my depression where I just didn't give a crap. I mean, you can't fix her and you shouldn't try, but you can encourage her, and you can believe in her as best you can and be kind but firm. I totally understand you are at the end of your rope by now with her (I don't blame you at all) but being exasperated isn't going to help the situation at home and may potentially make things worse if she picks up on your resentment. Feeling like a burden can become a weird depressing catch-22. This is about trying to be positive and helping to instill some confidence in your sister, and creating steps so she can feel more empowered and take better care of herself and her daughter. I mean, I know its easier said than done, but some people need more help than others, and as I've said-- her leaving will benefit you too in the end.
If she refuses to leave even after this, then you give her notice as you have literally done all you can and its out of your hands. You shouldn't feel guilty for wanting your house back-- its not just your house, it's your life.
On preview, what Bella Donna and Brookeb have said.
posted by Dimes at 10:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
McKenny-Vento gives some help, but at least in Chicago most of the housing programs use HUD guidelines where doubled up is not concidered homeless.
The School Social Worker would know of programs under those laws though.
In regards to your sister: you may have to evict her and I'm not sure of the repurcussions. I don't know your sister, but from what has been described she may not be capible of living on her own successfully. She has had passing involvement in drugs, lived with others almost get entire adult life, had difficulty maintaining employment, and has poor hygienic practices in her living situation with assistance. Without assistance it may be even worse. And you are not sure of her ability to manage the finances she does have.
She is also currently self injuring and has previous attempts of suicide. Essentially what I'm reading is that you're sister is disabled. She mentally had lots of things that need professional intervention for her to become successful, lead a safe life and be an appropraite parent.
You don't mention it, but if she's not connected to behavioral health she needs to be stat, and it should be a requirement for ongoing housing with you.
It is so hard being a family member of someone who experiences this level of difficulty and lack of engagement. But ultimately this is not your fault and not your problem. She is an adult and the are tons of resources out there. She has to make steps or you have to make difficult choices. You are not responsible for another adult. It is not your job to be.
Take gentle care of you.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
The School Social Worker would know of programs under those laws though.
In regards to your sister: you may have to evict her and I'm not sure of the repurcussions. I don't know your sister, but from what has been described she may not be capible of living on her own successfully. She has had passing involvement in drugs, lived with others almost get entire adult life, had difficulty maintaining employment, and has poor hygienic practices in her living situation with assistance. Without assistance it may be even worse. And you are not sure of her ability to manage the finances she does have.
She is also currently self injuring and has previous attempts of suicide. Essentially what I'm reading is that you're sister is disabled. She mentally had lots of things that need professional intervention for her to become successful, lead a safe life and be an appropraite parent.
You don't mention it, but if she's not connected to behavioral health she needs to be stat, and it should be a requirement for ongoing housing with you.
It is so hard being a family member of someone who experiences this level of difficulty and lack of engagement. But ultimately this is not your fault and not your problem. She is an adult and the are tons of resources out there. She has to make steps or you have to make difficult choices. You are not responsible for another adult. It is not your job to be.
Take gentle care of you.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:48 AM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think the important thing is to direct her to resources which are not you.
So, what others have said before -- strict deadline, and stick to it. But -- maybe give her a choice about the deadline, like she can leave at the end of October, and that's that, or if she gets engaged with a social worker, that deadline goes to January 1st.
That way -- you will have done the responsible thing, while still respecting everyone's respective needs and agency over their own lives.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:54 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, what others have said before -- strict deadline, and stick to it. But -- maybe give her a choice about the deadline, like she can leave at the end of October, and that's that, or if she gets engaged with a social worker, that deadline goes to January 1st.
That way -- you will have done the responsible thing, while still respecting everyone's respective needs and agency over their own lives.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:54 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I totally understand you are at the end of your rope by now with her (I don't blame you at all) but being exasperated isn't going to help the situation at home and may potentially make things worse if she picks up on your resentment. Feeling like a burden can become a weird depressing catch-22. This is about trying to be positive and helping to instill some confidence in your sister, and creating steps so she can feel more empowered and take better care of herself and her daughter. I mean, I know its easier said than done, but some people need more help than others, and as I've said-- her leaving will benefit you too in the end.
I really want to emphasize this. You (understandably) are very judgemental of your sister in your questions here, but if you want this to go as well as it possibly can for everyone involved (you, your husband, your sister and her daughter) you need to let go of that resentment, at least for now. She will be much more likely to land on her feet if you can help her do things like look at apartment listings and meet with social workers in a positive, encouraging way, rather than calling her a pig and wondering out loud where her tax return has gone. I know from experience it is not always easy to do that, but it is so much better if you can.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:57 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I really want to emphasize this. You (understandably) are very judgemental of your sister in your questions here, but if you want this to go as well as it possibly can for everyone involved (you, your husband, your sister and her daughter) you need to let go of that resentment, at least for now. She will be much more likely to land on her feet if you can help her do things like look at apartment listings and meet with social workers in a positive, encouraging way, rather than calling her a pig and wondering out loud where her tax return has gone. I know from experience it is not always easy to do that, but it is so much better if you can.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:57 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just feel like I'm all she's got and I don't want to seemingly turn on her and cause her to self harm or kill herself. She's been a cutter and has attempted suicide in the past.
If this is important to you, it may be time to accept your sister is not capable of taking care of herself and deciding whether you're going to have to take over now or leave her at the mercy of the system which will likely mean she dies a lot sooner than later.
There's something to be said for just getting her on disability and figuring out what can be done from there. It's probably not going to mean exactly the life you envisioned for yourself, but there are certain flavors of frustration that kind of go away when you just embrace that she's not going to wake up one day and decide to be okay.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
If this is important to you, it may be time to accept your sister is not capable of taking care of herself and deciding whether you're going to have to take over now or leave her at the mercy of the system which will likely mean she dies a lot sooner than later.
There's something to be said for just getting her on disability and figuring out what can be done from there. It's probably not going to mean exactly the life you envisioned for yourself, but there are certain flavors of frustration that kind of go away when you just embrace that she's not going to wake up one day and decide to be okay.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:15 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Something that hasn't been brought up is that she's legally a tenant. Even if you didn't have a lease all sorted out with her, she'd still legally be a tenant by the length of time she's been there and therefore has certain rights of occupancy that you should be aware of (tenancy at will). Research your state's law on Notice to Vacate, which would be applicable with or without a current lease agreement. If she does not comply, you'll need to formally evict her and follow that process. If you're still in Tennessee, know that it's illegal for you to forcibly remove her (that includes changing locks, putting her stuff out, etc) and you can face fines and jail times. I hope you can resolve it amicably, though!
posted by vivzan at 11:35 AM on September 28, 2016
posted by vivzan at 11:35 AM on September 28, 2016
Frankly, I don't think she's fit to care for her daughter, and that social services should be brought in to help find the girl foster parents. Fleas and a urine-soaked mattress, all money going to diet Coke and cigarettes, no savings, no real income, and no home ... this is not an adequate parenting.
Look after your niece first, and then removing your sister will be much less of an emotional burden for you.
posted by Capri at 11:37 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Look after your niece first, and then removing your sister will be much less of an emotional burden for you.
posted by Capri at 11:37 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
If she has an 8 year old daughter she is the primary guardian for, I would be shocked if she didn't qualify for state care of some kind. Or possibly the state could decide to give custody of the child to the father?
The state will have SOMETHING for her. Some kind of program she can qualify for. Or more than one.
posted by stockpuppet at 11:39 AM on September 28, 2016
The state will have SOMETHING for her. Some kind of program she can qualify for. Or more than one.
posted by stockpuppet at 11:39 AM on September 28, 2016
mom or dad will not let her and her daughter stay at their respective homes [even though they have more space than we do.]
Mom and Dad don't have to let them stay, because you are letting them stay.
I just feel like I'm all she's got and I don't want to seemingly turn on her and cause her to self harm or kill herself.
It's a common tactic of abusers to extract this kind of leniency from their victims because regardless of the abuse, the victim still loves them and doesn't want to see them hurt.
Your sister might not be hitting you, or doing other things that would more classically fall under "emotional abuse" but I do think that she is being abusive towards you, by not respecting promises she made, nor respecting the rules of your house. And, while she may not be explicitly emotionally blackmailing you, your concerns about her well-being and that of her innocent daughter are acting like blackmail, keeping you from doing what you want to (and have every right to) do.
Others have given you good advice above about finding other resources for her. Once you are sure that you've got your own lifemask securely on, I think that doing the needful to try to get them into their own place is the loving thing to do. But horses and water being what they are, you need to prepare for what you'll do when/if your sister fails to do her part to get her act together. So, this next bit will sound harsh, but if you want your house back, you'll need to consider something like it:
I want her out of my house [...] I really don't want my niece to be homeless
If your sister doesn't take the necessary initiative to find them a home (after you do some heavy lifting to find her resources), I think that it's fair to say that she is not a fit mother for her child. If your sister loses custody of her niece, there are many solutions to the "potentially homeless 8 year old problem".
Assuming that your niece's father is also an unfit parent (which -- assuming that the ex-husband is niece's father, AND is non-abusive, at least he can provide her four walls and a roof so "unfit" should be graded on a scale): you could take her in, maybe your parents, or even your brother could. I'm assuming that there is family history that might cause a lack of compassion towards your sister, but most people wouldn't feel that way towards her daughter. I wouldn't want to sentence a little girl to foster care, but again, at least she'd have a home. So yeah, I'd give significant consideration to getting CPS involved.
Losing her daughter could be very bad for your sister, and I know I feel bad for proposing it. But I think that being stuck with a shitty mother may be worse for your niece in the long run. Your niece hasn't fucked up her life, and your sister shouldn't be allowed to fuck up hers...or yours.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mom and Dad don't have to let them stay, because you are letting them stay.
I just feel like I'm all she's got and I don't want to seemingly turn on her and cause her to self harm or kill herself.
It's a common tactic of abusers to extract this kind of leniency from their victims because regardless of the abuse, the victim still loves them and doesn't want to see them hurt.
Your sister might not be hitting you, or doing other things that would more classically fall under "emotional abuse" but I do think that she is being abusive towards you, by not respecting promises she made, nor respecting the rules of your house. And, while she may not be explicitly emotionally blackmailing you, your concerns about her well-being and that of her innocent daughter are acting like blackmail, keeping you from doing what you want to (and have every right to) do.
Others have given you good advice above about finding other resources for her. Once you are sure that you've got your own lifemask securely on, I think that doing the needful to try to get them into their own place is the loving thing to do. But horses and water being what they are, you need to prepare for what you'll do when/if your sister fails to do her part to get her act together. So, this next bit will sound harsh, but if you want your house back, you'll need to consider something like it:
I want her out of my house [...] I really don't want my niece to be homeless
If your sister doesn't take the necessary initiative to find them a home (after you do some heavy lifting to find her resources), I think that it's fair to say that she is not a fit mother for her child. If your sister loses custody of her niece, there are many solutions to the "potentially homeless 8 year old problem".
Assuming that your niece's father is also an unfit parent (which -- assuming that the ex-husband is niece's father, AND is non-abusive, at least he can provide her four walls and a roof so "unfit" should be graded on a scale): you could take her in, maybe your parents, or even your brother could. I'm assuming that there is family history that might cause a lack of compassion towards your sister, but most people wouldn't feel that way towards her daughter. I wouldn't want to sentence a little girl to foster care, but again, at least she'd have a home. So yeah, I'd give significant consideration to getting CPS involved.
Losing her daughter could be very bad for your sister, and I know I feel bad for proposing it. But I think that being stuck with a shitty mother may be worse for your niece in the long run. Your niece hasn't fucked up her life, and your sister shouldn't be allowed to fuck up hers...or yours.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:40 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't know how common this is, but, here, if you went through a process where you applied to foster your niece, you would be eligible for a not insubstantial sum of money each month to provide for her care. There is a little vetting -- making sure your house is safe, you may have to take a class, have a police background check, stuff like that -- but it might be something to look in to and keep in mind if you do end up looking at giving her the heave-ho while not risking your niece being homeless.
I am the only parent to a 9yo and the suggestion of this would shock and terrify me and bring me to my senses that I was not functioning well as a parent. Obviously your sister may vary -- who knows; she might think it's a terrific deal and be happy to bail and let you collect foster parenting payments for her daughter -- she'd get all the nice parts of having a child and be able to visit and so on while having none of the responsibility, yippee. (I am casting some unpleasant aspersions here and sincerely sorry if I am way off the mark. But...fifteen months? And I too suspect you are not getting an honest story about the garnishment...)
Stuff like "Her daughter still wets the bed and I insisted that the mattress be in a vinyl mattress cover...In her home, if her daughter peed in the bed, they just covered it with a towel..." in your previous Q leaves me feeling pretty enraged and quite sorry for the little girl and not terribly sympathetic for her having to spend some time not living with her child. Who in their right mind leaves a kid sleeping on a mattress that reeks of piss? The more I look at that Q the more disgusted I am by that level of cruel neglect.
People I know who grew up with neglect and had a family member or family friend step in a bit and try to better their situation -- even in small doses -- benefitted enormously from that and it generally made a big difference in their lives, not just as children but as adults as well -- instead of neglect becoming normalised, empathy for others was. Don't underestimate the difference you could make in your niece's life by kicking your sister to the curb. You might consider calling the local child protection agency for advice, especially on what would be required for you to obtain temporary guardianship (and the money that would hopefully come with it).
Which is not to say you need to be cruel to your sister; I would endeavour to hook her up with all available resources and all practical (but not financial) aid. But I think after 15 months and nonsense like a $4k tax refund disappearing into the aether you are being taken advantage of and possibly enabling a situation which is not benefitting your niece. If I ever fell that far down I would hope somebody close to me would kindly give me a kick in the arse and prioritise my child's well-being over my own.
There are lots of comments here about depression -- I am not unsympathetic -- after a crisis with a crazy-low vitamin b12 level that hit amidst a lot of financial and other stresses, I am now on two antidepressants and seeing a counsellor. Because that is what one does when one has a minor child. You don't get the luxury of indulging in poor self-care. Depression is not a free pass to let your young daughter sleep on a urine-soaked mattress. It's unfortunate that she's not functioning well, but it sounds like a lot more professional help is needed, and she's not getting that.
I hope things work out well in the end for you and yours.
posted by kmennie at 11:43 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
I am the only parent to a 9yo and the suggestion of this would shock and terrify me and bring me to my senses that I was not functioning well as a parent. Obviously your sister may vary -- who knows; she might think it's a terrific deal and be happy to bail and let you collect foster parenting payments for her daughter -- she'd get all the nice parts of having a child and be able to visit and so on while having none of the responsibility, yippee. (I am casting some unpleasant aspersions here and sincerely sorry if I am way off the mark. But...fifteen months? And I too suspect you are not getting an honest story about the garnishment...)
Stuff like "Her daughter still wets the bed and I insisted that the mattress be in a vinyl mattress cover...In her home, if her daughter peed in the bed, they just covered it with a towel..." in your previous Q leaves me feeling pretty enraged and quite sorry for the little girl and not terribly sympathetic for her having to spend some time not living with her child. Who in their right mind leaves a kid sleeping on a mattress that reeks of piss? The more I look at that Q the more disgusted I am by that level of cruel neglect.
People I know who grew up with neglect and had a family member or family friend step in a bit and try to better their situation -- even in small doses -- benefitted enormously from that and it generally made a big difference in their lives, not just as children but as adults as well -- instead of neglect becoming normalised, empathy for others was. Don't underestimate the difference you could make in your niece's life by kicking your sister to the curb. You might consider calling the local child protection agency for advice, especially on what would be required for you to obtain temporary guardianship (and the money that would hopefully come with it).
Which is not to say you need to be cruel to your sister; I would endeavour to hook her up with all available resources and all practical (but not financial) aid. But I think after 15 months and nonsense like a $4k tax refund disappearing into the aether you are being taken advantage of and possibly enabling a situation which is not benefitting your niece. If I ever fell that far down I would hope somebody close to me would kindly give me a kick in the arse and prioritise my child's well-being over my own.
There are lots of comments here about depression -- I am not unsympathetic -- after a crisis with a crazy-low vitamin b12 level that hit amidst a lot of financial and other stresses, I am now on two antidepressants and seeing a counsellor. Because that is what one does when one has a minor child. You don't get the luxury of indulging in poor self-care. Depression is not a free pass to let your young daughter sleep on a urine-soaked mattress. It's unfortunate that she's not functioning well, but it sounds like a lot more professional help is needed, and she's not getting that.
I hope things work out well in the end for you and yours.
posted by kmennie at 11:43 AM on September 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
Her check has been garnished and all she is getting is enough for gas money to and from work.
So, this is a lie. There are caps on the percentage of a paycheck that can be garnished. They're not that high.
I don't see any way this situation ends without enormous drama, but I hope that knowledge may help a little in stiffening your resolve to do whatever you end up doing. Please try to keep that little girl a priority as far as you possibly can.
posted by praemunire at 11:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
So, this is a lie. There are caps on the percentage of a paycheck that can be garnished. They're not that high.
I don't see any way this situation ends without enormous drama, but I hope that knowledge may help a little in stiffening your resolve to do whatever you end up doing. Please try to keep that little girl a priority as far as you possibly can.
posted by praemunire at 11:47 AM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Have you contacted Adult Protective Services in your local Department of Social Services? The social work staff might be able to help with applications for Section 8 / subsidized housing, food stamps and Medicaid as well as for whatever other services might be available in your area.
posted by cool breeze at 12:04 PM on September 28, 2016
posted by cool breeze at 12:04 PM on September 28, 2016
I looked at the previous question about the mattress and understood that your sister has never actually lived by herself (is that right?)
Before I read that question I thought that you need to have your sister meet with a(n unrelated, third-party) financial advisor who could help her understand her affairs, get them in order, and make a plan for moving on. (Possibly with you attending said meeting, so that you too can find out what is going on with her finances.)
Now I still think that's necessary, but probably not enough at all - it sounds like on top of whatever mental issues she's dealing with, she might not actually have some of the most basic skills that an adult needs in order to function. That could make the idea of going out and actually finding an apartment, getting accepted as a tenant, signing a real lease, moving in by herself, setting up all the utilities, etc. appear somewhere between daunting and terrifying in her mind, with the result that she's just trying to ignore it in hopes it goes away.
The suggestions above to look for social services and a caseworker for her seem like a really good idea. Even having her look for some kind of life coach for basic skills might help. Does she know how much rents are in your area? (Are her ideas about that accurate?) Has she even thought about living with a roommate?
If you can figure out the garnishment business, she needs to start paying you monthly the same amount that renting somewhere else would cost. Tell her you'll set that money aside for her so that she can use it for a security deposit/whatever other financial requirements her next place has. If she manages to get subsidized housing so much the better, but you should still have her pay you whatever amount of money you all have calculated she should be using to live on each month - partly so that she can get in the habit of not just spending randomly, and partly as a negative incentive for staying with you. If put that money aside for her or for your niece.
Basically I think that you might ultimately need to give her an ultimatum, but at the same time that it would be both a very kind and a relatively effective thing to do to set her up with whatever resources and training wheels she needs to get a handle on how to actually live in this world by yourself.
(With respect to cleaning, I think it often helps to make it a group activity - it might be annoying, but start trying to eat more meals together and clean up afterwards together (or at least with her daughter, if she's out working). Set up a regular day where you all clean part of the house at the same time for an hour. Make it enjoyable, if you can. Etc. She might just be a slob, but she also might have no idea of what functional habits actually look and feel like, and her daughter definitely doesn't.)
posted by trig at 12:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Before I read that question I thought that you need to have your sister meet with a(n unrelated, third-party) financial advisor who could help her understand her affairs, get them in order, and make a plan for moving on. (Possibly with you attending said meeting, so that you too can find out what is going on with her finances.)
Now I still think that's necessary, but probably not enough at all - it sounds like on top of whatever mental issues she's dealing with, she might not actually have some of the most basic skills that an adult needs in order to function. That could make the idea of going out and actually finding an apartment, getting accepted as a tenant, signing a real lease, moving in by herself, setting up all the utilities, etc. appear somewhere between daunting and terrifying in her mind, with the result that she's just trying to ignore it in hopes it goes away.
The suggestions above to look for social services and a caseworker for her seem like a really good idea. Even having her look for some kind of life coach for basic skills might help. Does she know how much rents are in your area? (Are her ideas about that accurate?) Has she even thought about living with a roommate?
If you can figure out the garnishment business, she needs to start paying you monthly the same amount that renting somewhere else would cost. Tell her you'll set that money aside for her so that she can use it for a security deposit/whatever other financial requirements her next place has. If she manages to get subsidized housing so much the better, but you should still have her pay you whatever amount of money you all have calculated she should be using to live on each month - partly so that she can get in the habit of not just spending randomly, and partly as a negative incentive for staying with you. If put that money aside for her or for your niece.
Basically I think that you might ultimately need to give her an ultimatum, but at the same time that it would be both a very kind and a relatively effective thing to do to set her up with whatever resources and training wheels she needs to get a handle on how to actually live in this world by yourself.
(With respect to cleaning, I think it often helps to make it a group activity - it might be annoying, but start trying to eat more meals together and clean up afterwards together (or at least with her daughter, if she's out working). Set up a regular day where you all clean part of the house at the same time for an hour. Make it enjoyable, if you can. Etc. She might just be a slob, but she also might have no idea of what functional habits actually look and feel like, and her daughter definitely doesn't.)
posted by trig at 12:19 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with domo that reducing the level of privacy and comfort at your house could also give incentive to leave. Help her so much that she either has things in hand or wants out from under your thumb. Set up her finances on Mint, you need to see her paystubs, you help her make a budget, make her spell out what happened to the tax rebate and how we can prevent that kind of mistake happening again. The approach here is that you're demonstrating that she *can* get her shit together and get an apartment, and you can see in the budget that she can do this on Jan 1, therefore you will expect her to be out by then. And as her concerned and helpful sister, you're going to watch over her and ask her what she spent money on that day and enter it into a spreadsheet (or Mint or whatever) and if it doesn't add up by over $100 (or some threshold) then your support of her ends, she has to go now.
posted by aimedwander at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aimedwander at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think, in addition to the excellent advice above about getting your sister into the safety net, as it were, you should A) prepare to get an earful from your family members for doing so. As you must stick to your guns with your sister, so shall you stick to your guns with your family: each of them is in some kind of position (property, money, time) to help your sister, and they can help her within their means, but your sister has exhausted yours.
Also, despite what I just said, I think you should save a wad of cash, probably up to a couple thousand, which can be used to get your sister over any one-time fiscal hurdles that'll come up: a rent deposit, a some cheap furniture, a winter jacket, whatever. You'll never see the money again except in the hopeful event that she turns her life around and finds enough independence to pay you back someday, but, you'll be buying her ticket out of your house.
Oh yeah, there's a legal requirement. Not sure where you are, but most US States have a 3-7 day written notice of eviction for non-payment of rent. IT doesn't matter that she's your sister- she paid rent, therefore she's a renter for purposes of legal stuff. I strongly suggest you give her 30 days, which is generally the minimum you'd give to someone who had any kind of rental agreement with you.
Get it in writing, she reads and signs it, you and hubby sign it, you both get a copy. Check the laws for your state/province/nation as well as your municipality to be sure, but once she's out of the house against her will, the next person she talks to is going to tell her that what you did is SOOO illegal and she can sue your way back into the house, etc. Save yourself the grief.
posted by Sunburnt at 12:41 PM on September 28, 2016
Also, despite what I just said, I think you should save a wad of cash, probably up to a couple thousand, which can be used to get your sister over any one-time fiscal hurdles that'll come up: a rent deposit, a some cheap furniture, a winter jacket, whatever. You'll never see the money again except in the hopeful event that she turns her life around and finds enough independence to pay you back someday, but, you'll be buying her ticket out of your house.
Oh yeah, there's a legal requirement. Not sure where you are, but most US States have a 3-7 day written notice of eviction for non-payment of rent. IT doesn't matter that she's your sister- she paid rent, therefore she's a renter for purposes of legal stuff. I strongly suggest you give her 30 days, which is generally the minimum you'd give to someone who had any kind of rental agreement with you.
Get it in writing, she reads and signs it, you and hubby sign it, you both get a copy. Check the laws for your state/province/nation as well as your municipality to be sure, but once she's out of the house against her will, the next person she talks to is going to tell her that what you did is SOOO illegal and she can sue your way back into the house, etc. Save yourself the grief.
posted by Sunburnt at 12:41 PM on September 28, 2016
Hey, so you said in your last question that you'd been diagnosed with a terminal illlness. You HAVE to put yourself first. Start by-the-book eviction proceedings and get her out as soon as you are legally able. SHE WILL FIGURE SOMETHING ELSE OUT. She has no motivation to support herself right now and nothing will change while she lives in your house.
My thoughts are with you. You can do this. Good luck.
posted by kate blank at 2:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
My thoughts are with you. You can do this. Good luck.
posted by kate blank at 2:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
Hi - for me, this is super simple. She's using you. You need to establish firm boundaries and nothing will change until you do so. You're right, asking her to leave after Christmas isn't workable. But, good news - she has a car - I know several people including me who have slept in their car when they needed to. Here's your script:
"I'm so sorry to hear your wages are being garnished. Since you do not have sufficient money to pay rent, I'd like to request you sign your paycheck and your alimony checks over to me [the actual checks] for my tax records. Because we have a lease which shows you paying $300/month to me, I need to be able to substantiate to the IRS that I am not receiving $300."
Outcome 1: She either signs over the checks or starts paying you $300 a month.
Outcome 2: She refuses.
In either case case, "Sister, I really want to support you getting on your feet but it will not be possible for you to live with me after 10/31. I'm willing to let niece continue to live with me if you are not able to find alternate housing, but you would not be able to sleep, shower or eat at our house after 10/31. I'm giving this to you in writing - here, I brought two copies. You can use this document with social services as proof that you will not be living here after 10/31. Could you sign and date both copies? I'll do the same. Here's your copy.
posted by arnicae at 3:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I'm so sorry to hear your wages are being garnished. Since you do not have sufficient money to pay rent, I'd like to request you sign your paycheck and your alimony checks over to me [the actual checks] for my tax records. Because we have a lease which shows you paying $300/month to me, I need to be able to substantiate to the IRS that I am not receiving $300."
Outcome 1: She either signs over the checks or starts paying you $300 a month.
Outcome 2: She refuses.
In either case case, "Sister, I really want to support you getting on your feet but it will not be possible for you to live with me after 10/31. I'm willing to let niece continue to live with me if you are not able to find alternate housing, but you would not be able to sleep, shower or eat at our house after 10/31. I'm giving this to you in writing - here, I brought two copies. You can use this document with social services as proof that you will not be living here after 10/31. Could you sign and date both copies? I'll do the same. Here's your copy.
posted by arnicae at 3:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hey, so you said in your last question that you'd been diagnosed with a terminal illlness. You HAVE to put yourself first.
I saw this too. I want to give you a virtual hug and let you know that this internet stranger (also from a challenging family background) says it is absolutely OK for you to decide/prioritize what you can or can't do here...up to and including acknowledging you can't be the one to personally take on full-time custodial/parenting responsibility for your niece.
You extended and lived with this situation for an entire year past your stated, written, mutually agreed upon boundaries already. It's OK to put yourself and your own little family first at this point, especially if you've been "the responsible one" who has done more than a normal share of caretaking your entire life. If this makes you feel guilty, get a therapist or a self help group--don't let that guilt prevent you from making the decisions you need to make for your own health right now.
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:24 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I saw this too. I want to give you a virtual hug and let you know that this internet stranger (also from a challenging family background) says it is absolutely OK for you to decide/prioritize what you can or can't do here...up to and including acknowledging you can't be the one to personally take on full-time custodial/parenting responsibility for your niece.
You extended and lived with this situation for an entire year past your stated, written, mutually agreed upon boundaries already. It's OK to put yourself and your own little family first at this point, especially if you've been "the responsible one" who has done more than a normal share of caretaking your entire life. If this makes you feel guilty, get a therapist or a self help group--don't let that guilt prevent you from making the decisions you need to make for your own health right now.
posted by blue suede stockings at 3:24 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'd tell her you need to help her budget. Ask to see her pay check and track her expenses for two weeks.
Yeah, she can't afford cigarettes or diet coke and who knows what else. When I work a hope job, I can't afford pop. I have to drink super cheap coffee I make myself (which is still a luxury).
Tell her she needs to leave. If she needs to work two jobs, she does. Maybe she can get a better job or do a side job. Tell her your neice is always welcome. She is not going to change until you draw the line. I'd even consider the budget conversation with a written notice she'll be evicted in 90 days. Without this push, she's never going to adult, because she doesn't have to, imho.
posted by Kalmya at 5:12 PM on September 28, 2016
Yeah, she can't afford cigarettes or diet coke and who knows what else. When I work a hope job, I can't afford pop. I have to drink super cheap coffee I make myself (which is still a luxury).
Tell her she needs to leave. If she needs to work two jobs, she does. Maybe she can get a better job or do a side job. Tell her your neice is always welcome. She is not going to change until you draw the line. I'd even consider the budget conversation with a written notice she'll be evicted in 90 days. Without this push, she's never going to adult, because she doesn't have to, imho.
posted by Kalmya at 5:12 PM on September 28, 2016
I really think it's the niece that makes this so difficult. I'd be with the "give her a firm date and then evict her" crowd if it were just your sister. Yes, it's too bad that your sister has so many practical and mental issues, but it really is not your place to solve the problems of an adult, especially an adult who doesn't seem truly interested in improving her situation, and especially when you yourself have a terminal illness.
Is the niece's father aware of the situation? If not, I would make him aware. Is it possible that he could provide shelter? Is it possible he could provide direct assistance rather than just cash? (i.e. paying for a winter coat, paying for school supplies, etc.)
I think I would get the state involved in some way, even if it is just to call a local social services office and alert them to the situation and let them take it from there.
It's just unthinkable to me to knowingly allow a child--any child, but especially a child you are related to, and who has been living in your house--to become homeless without trying to do something.
Yes, offer to let the niece stay with you after your sister has left, but I doubt she will agree. If she does, I would try to establish legally that you are caring for the niece, so that the mother can't swoop back in without proving she's become able to care for her daughter.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 5:43 PM on September 28, 2016
Is the niece's father aware of the situation? If not, I would make him aware. Is it possible that he could provide shelter? Is it possible he could provide direct assistance rather than just cash? (i.e. paying for a winter coat, paying for school supplies, etc.)
I think I would get the state involved in some way, even if it is just to call a local social services office and alert them to the situation and let them take it from there.
It's just unthinkable to me to knowingly allow a child--any child, but especially a child you are related to, and who has been living in your house--to become homeless without trying to do something.
Yes, offer to let the niece stay with you after your sister has left, but I doubt she will agree. If she does, I would try to establish legally that you are caring for the niece, so that the mother can't swoop back in without proving she's become able to care for her daughter.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 5:43 PM on September 28, 2016
It doesn't sound like your sister is at all capable of pulling herself up by her bootstraps, saving money and finding an apartment and living alone. She just doesn't sound like she CAN do it (even if she wanted to, which....I don't know.). So being all "tough love" and "out by January 1" makes me strongly suspect she ends up cutting/attempting suicide/not getting her shit together by January 1 instead of getting an apartment. Realistically, you need to see if there are any social services that can help her if you can't, because she needs to have someone helping her in order for her to live. If it's not you, then who? And if social services fail you, then I think you may very well be stuck keeping her, especially if your niece is young. If the alternative is homeless/cutting/dead/who knows what for your niece, you may just have to accept that living with your sister and her filth is the least bad option.
Though if you have a terminal illness, you're not going to be able to take care of her forever anyway, and I don't know if your husband is willing to put her up for life after you're gone either. That may be a reasonable thing to bring up, and/or talk to social services about.
I don't know squat on custody issues, but is it possible for you to get some kind of legal custody of your niece? Or to at least look into it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2016
Though if you have a terminal illness, you're not going to be able to take care of her forever anyway, and I don't know if your husband is willing to put her up for life after you're gone either. That may be a reasonable thing to bring up, and/or talk to social services about.
I don't know squat on custody issues, but is it possible for you to get some kind of legal custody of your niece? Or to at least look into it?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:36 PM on September 28, 2016
There is excellent advice above, & you deserve a lot of hugs and support. I honestly can't think of anything to add in terms of logistics, but I might be able to answer the question of the missing $4k tax refund. Did you actually see a check from the IRS or a direct deposit on a bank statement? If you didn't and your sister owes taxes, which a garnishment suggests, she probably never saw a penny of that refund.
It is possible to prepare and file a tax return that accurately reflects a person is owed a refund of $4k, even through something like TurboTax, and, for a brief but confusing interval, it seems like the tax filer will receive it. The IRS, however, eventually puts it together and says, "sorry, not sorry, we are applying this to your balance owed," and the refund is gone. It sucks, but it makes sense for them to do. So, it is quite possible that it appeared your sister was getting a hefty refund, and she just never told you that the IRS applied it to her back taxes instead. In fact, she may not even realize this happened, if she ignored the notification or any other communications from the IRS, & didn't investigate it further.
Conversely, it is possible she didn't owe any back taxes and frittered the $4k away, but, based on the garnishment, that seems unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if she never received that refund, & I hope that helps you feel a little bit better about this particular issue. If this is what happened, she's still taking advantage of you, but, at least, she isn't hiding this money or didn't misspend a large sum that should have been used to make a home for her & her daughter. Best of luck to you!
posted by katemcd at 8:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is possible to prepare and file a tax return that accurately reflects a person is owed a refund of $4k, even through something like TurboTax, and, for a brief but confusing interval, it seems like the tax filer will receive it. The IRS, however, eventually puts it together and says, "sorry, not sorry, we are applying this to your balance owed," and the refund is gone. It sucks, but it makes sense for them to do. So, it is quite possible that it appeared your sister was getting a hefty refund, and she just never told you that the IRS applied it to her back taxes instead. In fact, she may not even realize this happened, if she ignored the notification or any other communications from the IRS, & didn't investigate it further.
Conversely, it is possible she didn't owe any back taxes and frittered the $4k away, but, based on the garnishment, that seems unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if she never received that refund, & I hope that helps you feel a little bit better about this particular issue. If this is what happened, she's still taking advantage of you, but, at least, she isn't hiding this money or didn't misspend a large sum that should have been used to make a home for her & her daughter. Best of luck to you!
posted by katemcd at 8:01 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm in the camp that says, you've done enough. Do whatever it takes to legally evict your sister. It seems to me there are other family members (including her father) who should now step up to help your niece. But you deserve to focus on yourself from now on. Good luck and I'm so sorry you have to go through this.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:32 PM on September 28, 2016
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:32 PM on September 28, 2016
The suggestion for checking with Adult Protective Services may or may not be on point and I fear not -- per Wikipedia, it is, in the USA, "social services provided to abused, neglected, or exploited older adults and adults with significant disabilities," "some states provide adult protective services to older adults only," "Disabilities may be due to aging, developmental disabilities, physical disabilities, mental illness or cognitive impairments," etc. To the best of my understanding the adult in question must be quite significantly impaired; it doesn't deal with people who can function to the extent of holding a job. Here in Ontario it is limited to helping adults with (significant) developmental disabilities.
Apologies if this comes off as nitpicky -- I know in these sorts of situations one tends to end up looking at a very long list of telephone numbers, and a "bad referral" is a stressor in a stressful situation. In an ideal world there would be a social worker ready to leap in to fix this tomorrow. In reality this is not normally the case for most people -- homelessness, dire poverty, CAS removal of children, food banks, soup kitchens, etc, are the norm, not useful and speedy aid. I think the odds that a child protection agency would be of use are the highest -- she is a neglectful parent who is at risk of being homeless. Protection of children is a much, much higher priority than protection of adults. It may actually work in her favour that she has a child -- even if her daughter is temporarily in foster care, there is at least some framework in place there to theoretically try to help the parent return to a state where they will be able to function as a parent. Her eligibility for housing assistance will likely be prioritised over non-parents.
(Re. tax garnishments: yes, but you can also have your pay garnished for outstanding student loans, credit card debt, small claims court judgments, etc, etc)
posted by kmennie at 10:31 PM on September 28, 2016
Apologies if this comes off as nitpicky -- I know in these sorts of situations one tends to end up looking at a very long list of telephone numbers, and a "bad referral" is a stressor in a stressful situation. In an ideal world there would be a social worker ready to leap in to fix this tomorrow. In reality this is not normally the case for most people -- homelessness, dire poverty, CAS removal of children, food banks, soup kitchens, etc, are the norm, not useful and speedy aid. I think the odds that a child protection agency would be of use are the highest -- she is a neglectful parent who is at risk of being homeless. Protection of children is a much, much higher priority than protection of adults. It may actually work in her favour that she has a child -- even if her daughter is temporarily in foster care, there is at least some framework in place there to theoretically try to help the parent return to a state where they will be able to function as a parent. Her eligibility for housing assistance will likely be prioritised over non-parents.
(Re. tax garnishments: yes, but you can also have your pay garnished for outstanding student loans, credit card debt, small claims court judgments, etc, etc)
posted by kmennie at 10:31 PM on September 28, 2016
I am so sorry that your generous caring nature is being taken advantage of.
A small thing that can give big results is to remove the creature comforts, to jolt her out of the rut of staying in the house all the time.
For example, if she is using your internet, log into the router and turn it off at random times, then shrug and blame the cable company.
It is amazing how well this can work.
You are doing a good thing for your niece.
posted by metaseeker at 12:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
A small thing that can give big results is to remove the creature comforts, to jolt her out of the rut of staying in the house all the time.
For example, if she is using your internet, log into the router and turn it off at random times, then shrug and blame the cable company.
It is amazing how well this can work.
You are doing a good thing for your niece.
posted by metaseeker at 12:36 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do not do not DO NOT offer to keep your niece but kick your sister out.
As for the implications of foster care for your niece, that actually may not be better. There are too many variables. CPS or DCFS may find you're not suitable in some way to be her guardian and put her elsewhere. Getting children OUT Of the foster care system is incredibly difficult. A friend of mine used to be a lawyer who went after DCFS to reunite parents who either had children wrongly removed from homes or who were removed for minor infractions and the parents had complied with all the requests and three years later still didn't have their kids back. Not only that, but social workers in the foster care system are overworked, stressed, and have few resources at their disposal for self-care. Your niece needs help, but there may be more trauma in separating her from her mother than there would be in staying with her. Foster care, temporary and longterm, can be a good thing, but there are so many issues with US foster care systems that children often end up just as or even more damaged than if they stay with their parents.
That said, your sister clearly needs help of some kind and is clearly not capable of getting it on her own. Presentations of different diagnoses present differently. You sound like someone who is for the most part functional and doing well. Your sister does not. Definitely a caseworker for the housing situation, to get her into some kind of group therapy, and making sure your niece has everything she needs through her school is important.
It's not fair that this happened to you, and by all means, you have absolutely every reason to want your life back to the way it was before, but ultimately your choices really are kind of limited: 1. Kick your sister and your niece out and hope they can fend for themselves or 2. Take the lead in getting them help while they're still with you, knowing that social services can also move incredibly slowly, but also knowing the longer end game might be better in the end for everyone.
posted by zizzle at 4:01 AM on September 29, 2016
As for the implications of foster care for your niece, that actually may not be better. There are too many variables. CPS or DCFS may find you're not suitable in some way to be her guardian and put her elsewhere. Getting children OUT Of the foster care system is incredibly difficult. A friend of mine used to be a lawyer who went after DCFS to reunite parents who either had children wrongly removed from homes or who were removed for minor infractions and the parents had complied with all the requests and three years later still didn't have their kids back. Not only that, but social workers in the foster care system are overworked, stressed, and have few resources at their disposal for self-care. Your niece needs help, but there may be more trauma in separating her from her mother than there would be in staying with her. Foster care, temporary and longterm, can be a good thing, but there are so many issues with US foster care systems that children often end up just as or even more damaged than if they stay with their parents.
That said, your sister clearly needs help of some kind and is clearly not capable of getting it on her own. Presentations of different diagnoses present differently. You sound like someone who is for the most part functional and doing well. Your sister does not. Definitely a caseworker for the housing situation, to get her into some kind of group therapy, and making sure your niece has everything she needs through her school is important.
It's not fair that this happened to you, and by all means, you have absolutely every reason to want your life back to the way it was before, but ultimately your choices really are kind of limited: 1. Kick your sister and your niece out and hope they can fend for themselves or 2. Take the lead in getting them help while they're still with you, knowing that social services can also move incredibly slowly, but also knowing the longer end game might be better in the end for everyone.
posted by zizzle at 4:01 AM on September 29, 2016
Response by poster: Thank you so much for all of your feedback. You all are right. I HAVE bent over backwards for her. Especially with me having terminal brain cancer, I can't take the additional stress or the germs that her little carrier monkey brings home. I do need to take care of me. I still worry about the suicidal thoughts though. I know she is depressed but again...not my problem, right? I think I have a plan. As awful as this sounds, I don't want custody of my niece. If that makes me a horrible person, then so be it. She has a daddy who is remarried and if she REALLY didn't have anywhere to go, she could go there I guess...but his new wife had all 3 of her children taken away by the state...yeah...I know...but I'm not raising my niece. I honestly think that I would let her go to foster care first...although I'm sure my mom would step up at that point and at least take my niece in. I'm too sick to do this and my husband shouldn't have to. Last August I was given the terminal diagnosis and told that I could have 2 to 12 more years, depending on how slow my brain lesion grows.
I am going to give her a deadline of December 1st to be out of my house. The end. I don't care if she has another place or not. You're right. She's had 15 months to save and it's not my problem that she didn't. She has already applied for housing/food stamps/welfare and was denied for all because she makes too much money. ($12.50 an hour, I believe) I WILL help her get set up with a mental health provider. But making her go to the appointment is another story though...I know I'll hear how she doesn't have the $40 co-pay and she'll cancel...but I can only do so much. As far as the tax refund goes, I did see it with my own eyes and as far as the garnishment goes, she says it's for a judgement for medical bills. I'm not going to loan her another dime, but I'm not going to ask her for anything else either. I thought about doing as suggested above and make her pay rent and then give it all to her when she moves...but hell! I can't get her to even give me $300 a month so asking for more, I feel, is moot. I will help her look for somewhere to live, but I'm putting it on her. I talked to my mom this morning and she told me she will not, under any circumstances, let her stay there, period. You are right. She has a car. A free car that my dad gave her to replace the free one my mom gave her when it died. She can sleep there. I've slept in my car before when I had nowhere else to go and I think she needs a good dose of reality. No, she's never lived alone. She moved out of my mom's with a roomie in her 20's, then married and moved in with the husband...now she's with me. I've also decided to hell with her privacy. I've been really good with respecting her privacy to the point I NEVER go in her room...but I'm cleaning her room today...and will continue to make sure it's tidy and the bed is made daily. Maybe it will make her just enough uncomfortable to want to leave. Right now, she's got the world by the balls. She is spending her entire paycheck on whatever the fuck she feels like and she has a roof over her (and my niece's) head, food in their stomachs and somewhere to live...ALL FOR FREE. She also has a boyfriend who she is talking about moving in with...I used to tell her what a bad idea I thought this was but now, I'm keeping my mouth shut. If she moves in with the boyfriend...it's not my place to tell her what a bad idea that is. She can just learn.
As far as doing other things to make her want to leave...I do routinely change the password to Netflix, just so she has to ask for it again and I can point out how much she doesn't pay for Netflix. I randomly change the password to the wireless router and do the "It must be something with the cable company" thing. I'm taking her cable box away today too. I am a little passive aggressive. I'm open for any more comments about my plan. I'm making up the documents to have her sign tonight. I CAN do this. I CAN. I have to.
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 7:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I am going to give her a deadline of December 1st to be out of my house. The end. I don't care if she has another place or not. You're right. She's had 15 months to save and it's not my problem that she didn't. She has already applied for housing/food stamps/welfare and was denied for all because she makes too much money. ($12.50 an hour, I believe) I WILL help her get set up with a mental health provider. But making her go to the appointment is another story though...I know I'll hear how she doesn't have the $40 co-pay and she'll cancel...but I can only do so much. As far as the tax refund goes, I did see it with my own eyes and as far as the garnishment goes, she says it's for a judgement for medical bills. I'm not going to loan her another dime, but I'm not going to ask her for anything else either. I thought about doing as suggested above and make her pay rent and then give it all to her when she moves...but hell! I can't get her to even give me $300 a month so asking for more, I feel, is moot. I will help her look for somewhere to live, but I'm putting it on her. I talked to my mom this morning and she told me she will not, under any circumstances, let her stay there, period. You are right. She has a car. A free car that my dad gave her to replace the free one my mom gave her when it died. She can sleep there. I've slept in my car before when I had nowhere else to go and I think she needs a good dose of reality. No, she's never lived alone. She moved out of my mom's with a roomie in her 20's, then married and moved in with the husband...now she's with me. I've also decided to hell with her privacy. I've been really good with respecting her privacy to the point I NEVER go in her room...but I'm cleaning her room today...and will continue to make sure it's tidy and the bed is made daily. Maybe it will make her just enough uncomfortable to want to leave. Right now, she's got the world by the balls. She is spending her entire paycheck on whatever the fuck she feels like and she has a roof over her (and my niece's) head, food in their stomachs and somewhere to live...ALL FOR FREE. She also has a boyfriend who she is talking about moving in with...I used to tell her what a bad idea I thought this was but now, I'm keeping my mouth shut. If she moves in with the boyfriend...it's not my place to tell her what a bad idea that is. She can just learn.
As far as doing other things to make her want to leave...I do routinely change the password to Netflix, just so she has to ask for it again and I can point out how much she doesn't pay for Netflix. I randomly change the password to the wireless router and do the "It must be something with the cable company" thing. I'm taking her cable box away today too. I am a little passive aggressive. I'm open for any more comments about my plan. I'm making up the documents to have her sign tonight. I CAN do this. I CAN. I have to.
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 7:53 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm open for any more comments about my plan.
Your plan is awesome!
You are awesome, at least just because of what you've done (and are still planning to do) to help your sister and your niece, even while you are in the situation where your family should be focusing on helping you.
When (not if) your sister tries to make you feel like shit for doing what you need to do, I hope you come back to this post and reread your plan and remember that at least one internet stranger has your back (for whatever that's worth). Because the worst thing you could do is to go down this path and be talked into backing off. That way leads to regret and even more manipulation by your sister down the line.
Good luck OP. We're all counting on you.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Your plan is awesome!
You are awesome, at least just because of what you've done (and are still planning to do) to help your sister and your niece, even while you are in the situation where your family should be focusing on helping you.
When (not if) your sister tries to make you feel like shit for doing what you need to do, I hope you come back to this post and reread your plan and remember that at least one internet stranger has your back (for whatever that's worth). Because the worst thing you could do is to go down this path and be talked into backing off. That way leads to regret and even more manipulation by your sister down the line.
Good luck OP. We're all counting on you.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:38 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Here's something to remember about your plan.
I've had people like this in my life. I sometimes think of them as feral cats: they ONLY think about the current minute, where their next meal is coming from, and a place to sleep that is warm and safe. They don't even remotely worry about what's going to happen an hour from now, never mind a year or three. They will hiss and snarl and attack when something bigger and stronger comes between them and their food, but if they are truly defeated they will move on and search somewhere else.
Your sister is like that. She will fight and fight and scream and yell and do guilt trips and whine and act however she needs to act to keep her life exactly the same as it is now, getting everything that she wants for free. She will only move on (to another target, like the boyfriend) when it is absolutely, 100% clear that she won't be getting those things from you anymore. Not 99%, but 100%. Figure out the magic words you need to make it 100%. I don't know what those words are (That's not my problem? I'm calling the police? I'll be dead in 2 years? My husband will throw you out?), but you do, and you should use them. Even if she tries to hit you with the worst guilt trips imaginable (because of you, my child will be living in a car!), and you use those 100% magic words, she will somehow manage to survive okay, because feral cats usually do.
Best of luck. I've sort of been where you are, and it sucks.
posted by Melismata at 8:58 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've had people like this in my life. I sometimes think of them as feral cats: they ONLY think about the current minute, where their next meal is coming from, and a place to sleep that is warm and safe. They don't even remotely worry about what's going to happen an hour from now, never mind a year or three. They will hiss and snarl and attack when something bigger and stronger comes between them and their food, but if they are truly defeated they will move on and search somewhere else.
Your sister is like that. She will fight and fight and scream and yell and do guilt trips and whine and act however she needs to act to keep her life exactly the same as it is now, getting everything that she wants for free. She will only move on (to another target, like the boyfriend) when it is absolutely, 100% clear that she won't be getting those things from you anymore. Not 99%, but 100%. Figure out the magic words you need to make it 100%. I don't know what those words are (That's not my problem? I'm calling the police? I'll be dead in 2 years? My husband will throw you out?), but you do, and you should use them. Even if she tries to hit you with the worst guilt trips imaginable (because of you, my child will be living in a car!), and you use those 100% magic words, she will somehow manage to survive okay, because feral cats usually do.
Best of luck. I've sort of been where you are, and it sucks.
posted by Melismata at 8:58 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
December 1 is a good deadline. And even though she's family, she's currently a legal tenant in your home, so be sure to give her adequate written notice to vacate, as I mentioned above, now that you've picked a date. More is better, and 60+ days should be enough for any jurisdiction, but you should of course check.
posted by Sunburnt at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sunburnt at 11:03 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The only change I'd make to your (entirely excellent!) plan is, next time you change the Netflix and wireless router passwords? Don't give her the new passwords. She asks for them, you tell her No. That's it, a simple solid 'no' and cut her off. It's the same as taking away 'her' cable box: the Netflix and wireless and cable you've been paying for are not hers, and if it makes her less comfy then fine, that'll only be another reason for her to latch onto her next meal ticket.
Oh, and speaking of meal tickets: if there's any food/drink items you get only because she likes them? Cut those off too. (For example, if she adores Froot Loops but you and your husband don't? No more Froot Loops.)
posted by easily confused at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, and speaking of meal tickets: if there's any food/drink items you get only because she likes them? Cut those off too. (For example, if she adores Froot Loops but you and your husband don't? No more Froot Loops.)
posted by easily confused at 1:33 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there any 3rd party who can sit down with the 3 of you - sister, husband, you - and come up with a plan.
1. while she is present in your home, specific tasks that she and her daughter will do daily and weekly.
2. her plan for getting a job.
3. her plan for getting a place to live - apply for housing assistance, apply for TANF, etc.
4. she will apply for food stamps and contribute them directly to the food budget.
and whatever else. She has sweet deal and is unlikely to leave. She also may be hot mess and unable to cope - specific small tasks are really useful in that scenario.
I would research emergency options. You need her out, and she should understand the alternatives. You have been incredibly generous, big hugs.
posted by theora55 at 1:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. while she is present in your home, specific tasks that she and her daughter will do daily and weekly.
2. her plan for getting a job.
3. her plan for getting a place to live - apply for housing assistance, apply for TANF, etc.
4. she will apply for food stamps and contribute them directly to the food budget.
and whatever else. She has sweet deal and is unlikely to leave. She also may be hot mess and unable to cope - specific small tasks are really useful in that scenario.
I would research emergency options. You need her out, and she should understand the alternatives. You have been incredibly generous, big hugs.
posted by theora55 at 1:48 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Well, after all of that yesterday, it went really well!!! She has until Sunday to clean (to my standards) her room and her bathroom. If this doesn't happen, she's leaving Dec. 1st. IF she does decide to clean up, I told her I'd give her until Feb 1st...as long as she continues to keep her areas clean. She actually had been interviewing for a job making 50K/yr and was given the job offer yesterday...so that can help IF she stays until February 1st. I made her sign documents saying she would be out Dec 1st or Feb 1st depending on her actions. She's agreed to go for mental help. (I told her I didn't care how she got her $40 copay, if she had to go to the hood and give blow jobs for $5 a piece, so be it.) She's scared right now and agreeable to everything. If she doesn't get an appointment next week with a mental health provider (that I found for her), then it's Dec 1st. I cut out her diet cokes a few months back...and you're right. She doesn't need my Netflix password. Thank you all so much!!!
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Amalie-Suzette at 8:40 AM on September 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm glad to hear that things seem to be looking up. Do keep us posted!
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 2:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 2:31 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good job on taking first steps! We are all rooting for you!
I am a little concerned that you went into the conversation thinking December 1st, and she talked you into February 1st. And she is so good at it that she had you thinking that the conversation went well!
It took you a lot of energy to work up to this conversation. Now it's been diffused and delayed.
I also don't understand why she would stay longer if she takes the new job? Wouldn't it allow her to pay rent at a place of her own?
It's really taxing to have to be the enforcer of boundaries in your own home - you can't relax in the one place that should be your sanctuary.
Please please stay focused on your health and sanity, be your own best advocate, and know that we wish you all the very best.
posted by metaseeker at 2:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am a little concerned that you went into the conversation thinking December 1st, and she talked you into February 1st. And she is so good at it that she had you thinking that the conversation went well!
It took you a lot of energy to work up to this conversation. Now it's been diffused and delayed.
I also don't understand why she would stay longer if she takes the new job? Wouldn't it allow her to pay rent at a place of her own?
It's really taxing to have to be the enforcer of boundaries in your own home - you can't relax in the one place that should be your sanctuary.
Please please stay focused on your health and sanity, be your own best advocate, and know that we wish you all the very best.
posted by metaseeker at 2:49 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The thing is, 15 months of *any* houseguest, even the very best-behaved houseguests, is too much.
As you wrote: "I want my house back. I want it to just be me and my husband again."
Sure, you *would* have liked clean helpful houseguests, for the 15 months they stayed there, but at this point, you just need to have your house back.
She is really good at this! She reframed and redirected you - and changed you from thinking "I want my house back" into "I guess I am OK with sharing my house even longer, since my houseguest promises to try and clean their rooms and contribute towards expenses from now on, although they've never lived up to previous promises."
See what happened there?
posted by metaseeker at 3:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
As you wrote: "I want my house back. I want it to just be me and my husband again."
Sure, you *would* have liked clean helpful houseguests, for the 15 months they stayed there, but at this point, you just need to have your house back.
She is really good at this! She reframed and redirected you - and changed you from thinking "I want my house back" into "I guess I am OK with sharing my house even longer, since my houseguest promises to try and clean their rooms and contribute towards expenses from now on, although they've never lived up to previous promises."
See what happened there?
posted by metaseeker at 3:36 PM on September 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
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posted by Amalie-Suzette at 9:07 AM on September 28, 2016