Not another narcissist? (covert)
May 2, 2016 4:28 PM Subscribe
I recently started dating a guy who seems great in a lot of ways, but a friend recently suggested he might be a "covert narcissist". Both of my previous relationships have been with overt narcissists and ended pretty badly, so naturally I'm not happy to hear this but am willing to consider it a possibility.
We've only been seeing each other for about 2 months so maybe it is too early to tell for sure, but I'm curious to hear anyone's experience with narcissists of the covert type and what were your earliest red flags?
Also, how can I be open to developing feelings for someone while also on the look out for narcissistic traits? I don't want to fixate to the point where I poison the relationship, but I do seem attract / be attracted to this type and don't want to keep repeating the pattern.
Thanks!
Optional details for those interested:
As far as this particular guy, some things I might consider potential warning signs are: talks/ thinks about himself a lot in an introspective way, occasionally "blames" me for his feelings in way I take to be a joke but maybe it's not, as in "You're making me wish I was more social, thanks a lot!" in a sarcastic tone. (in response to me talking about having a lot of great friends), expresses envy towards other people, and we seem to have very similar personalities and I think I have a few covert narcissistic traits myself.
Seemingly non-narcissist qualities: he seems considerate and kind, has respected all boundaries I've set for him, doesn't criticize or put me down in any way, handled my telling him I want to take things slowly in a very mature and considerate way, does seem to have some long-term close friends that he really cares about.
We've only been seeing each other for about 2 months so maybe it is too early to tell for sure, but I'm curious to hear anyone's experience with narcissists of the covert type and what were your earliest red flags?
Also, how can I be open to developing feelings for someone while also on the look out for narcissistic traits? I don't want to fixate to the point where I poison the relationship, but I do seem attract / be attracted to this type and don't want to keep repeating the pattern.
Thanks!
Optional details for those interested:
As far as this particular guy, some things I might consider potential warning signs are: talks/ thinks about himself a lot in an introspective way, occasionally "blames" me for his feelings in way I take to be a joke but maybe it's not, as in "You're making me wish I was more social, thanks a lot!" in a sarcastic tone. (in response to me talking about having a lot of great friends), expresses envy towards other people, and we seem to have very similar personalities and I think I have a few covert narcissistic traits myself.
Seemingly non-narcissist qualities: he seems considerate and kind, has respected all boundaries I've set for him, doesn't criticize or put me down in any way, handled my telling him I want to take things slowly in a very mature and considerate way, does seem to have some long-term close friends that he really cares about.
Unless this friend is that guy's therapist, who cares?
What I'll say about your warning signs:
1. People talk about themselves a lot early in relationships, and they also say weird quasi-flirty self-effacing shit like "Oooh, stahp, you're making me [whatever]! Humblebrag! False Modesty!" because these are things that both help you get to know each other and also create a sense of camaraderie or witty banter or whatever it is that greases the wheels of early relationships. Same for the envy thing. People tend to be self-effacing at this stage of getting to know someone they're stoked about.
2. Unless he was being serious and not silly about blaming you for his feelings, in which case, WTF, no, blaming of any kind does not belong in the first two months of a healthy relationship.
3. I would hope you had similar personalities? If not, you probably wouldn't get along.
I dated one or two guys who ended up being super self-centered (whether narcissistic or just selfish jerks, who knows), and it was sucky. So I either broke up with them or sort of realized what the limitations of the relationship were, and that we were never going to be emotionally intimate soul mates. If you find this guy selfish or have the feeling he doesn't want to get to know you or share your interests, by all means do that. But it seems weird to get hung up on something a friend said to you offhand, assuming that you really like each other and he hasn't done anything objectively awful.
posted by Sara C. at 4:38 PM on May 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
What I'll say about your warning signs:
1. People talk about themselves a lot early in relationships, and they also say weird quasi-flirty self-effacing shit like "Oooh, stahp, you're making me [whatever]! Humblebrag! False Modesty!" because these are things that both help you get to know each other and also create a sense of camaraderie or witty banter or whatever it is that greases the wheels of early relationships. Same for the envy thing. People tend to be self-effacing at this stage of getting to know someone they're stoked about.
2. Unless he was being serious and not silly about blaming you for his feelings, in which case, WTF, no, blaming of any kind does not belong in the first two months of a healthy relationship.
3. I would hope you had similar personalities? If not, you probably wouldn't get along.
I dated one or two guys who ended up being super self-centered (whether narcissistic or just selfish jerks, who knows), and it was sucky. So I either broke up with them or sort of realized what the limitations of the relationship were, and that we were never going to be emotionally intimate soul mates. If you find this guy selfish or have the feeling he doesn't want to get to know you or share your interests, by all means do that. But it seems weird to get hung up on something a friend said to you offhand, assuming that you really like each other and he hasn't done anything objectively awful.
posted by Sara C. at 4:38 PM on May 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
he seems considerate and kind, has respected all boundaries I've set for him, doesn't criticize or put me down in any way, handled my telling him I want to take things slowly in a very mature and considerate way, does seem to have some long-term close friends that he really cares about.
Maybe I'm missing the point but I don't hear the alarm bells. I wonder if the label "covert nearcissist" is not being very helpful to you here. We all have quirks and imperfections. If he has patterns that trigger bad feelings in you, then it is fine to notice that and to think about what part of that is you and what part of that is him. If he is respectful as you say, then if something is bothering you, you should be able to bring it up as a specific behavior that is triggering certain feelings in you and that conversation should help you work out who can do what to make things more comfortable for both of you. But my advice is to relax, ignore the labels and be prepared to do the hard work of accommodating another human being. If you try that and you can't comfortably accommodate each other, feel free to move on - you don't need a reason other than "didn't work for me"
posted by metahawk at 4:38 PM on May 2, 2016 [22 favorites]
Maybe I'm missing the point but I don't hear the alarm bells. I wonder if the label "covert nearcissist" is not being very helpful to you here. We all have quirks and imperfections. If he has patterns that trigger bad feelings in you, then it is fine to notice that and to think about what part of that is you and what part of that is him. If he is respectful as you say, then if something is bothering you, you should be able to bring it up as a specific behavior that is triggering certain feelings in you and that conversation should help you work out who can do what to make things more comfortable for both of you. But my advice is to relax, ignore the labels and be prepared to do the hard work of accommodating another human being. If you try that and you can't comfortably accommodate each other, feel free to move on - you don't need a reason other than "didn't work for me"
posted by metahawk at 4:38 PM on May 2, 2016 [22 favorites]
People aren't necessarily so black-and-white; we all exhibit selfish tendencies. People whose tendencies involve callous disregard for others, delusional thinking, and actual solipsism are true narcissists.
We've only been seeing each other for about 2 months so maybe it is too early to tell for sure, but I'm curious to hear anyone's experience with narcissists of the covert type and what were your earliest red flags?
I'm not sure that there's more than one kind of narcissist, except that everyone is going to be a little bit different personality-wise anyway. So there probably aren't totally different behaviors you have to be on the lookout for. That being said, "covert" narcissists are probably people who are generally passive, since there aren't clinically-distinct forms of narcissism.
Also, how can I be open to developing feelings for someone while also on the look out for narcissistic traits? I don't want to fixate to the point where I poison the relationship, but I do seem attract / be attracted to this type and don't want to keep repeating the pattern.
These are good questions to ask yourself. Are you attracted to outward displays of confidence and self-regard? That tendency can make narcissists very charming to others. Or did you have an important relationship with a narcissist at some point in your life, maybe? Figuring out what attracts you to them will help a lot in avoiding people who have pathological tendencies.
As far as this particular guy, some things I might consider potential warning signs are: talks/ thinks about himself a lot in an introspective way
That's actually not something you'd expect a narcissist to do. They're not good at or inclined toward genuine introspection.
occasionally "blames" me for his feelings in way I take to be a joke but maybe it's not, as in "You're making me wish I was more social, thanks a lot!" in a sarcastic tone. (in response to me talking about having a lot of great friends)
This doesn't seem like a red flag. It could easily just be normal playful conversation.
expresses envy towards other people, and we seem to have very similar personalities and I think I have a few covert narcissistic traits myself.
This is totally normal. Feeling/expressing envy is not something that only narcissists do, it's just part of being human. And if you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you almost certainly aren't one.
Seemingly non-narcissist qualities: he seems considerate and kind, has respected all boundaries I've set for him, doesn't criticize or put me down in any way, handled my telling him I want to take things slowly in a very mature and considerate way, does seem to have some long-term close friends that he really cares about.
You need to start thinking about people in a more multi-dimensional way. We aren't all just locatable on a spectrum from non-narcissist to narcissist; the term describes a specific pathology, it's not a category that anyone who isn't totally selfless all the time has to be slotted into. People are complex. Maybe you should also ask yourself, beyond the questions about this guy and your own past partners, why narcissism seems to be your go-to rubric for thinking about people?
posted by clockzero at 4:55 PM on May 2, 2016 [19 favorites]
We've only been seeing each other for about 2 months so maybe it is too early to tell for sure, but I'm curious to hear anyone's experience with narcissists of the covert type and what were your earliest red flags?
I'm not sure that there's more than one kind of narcissist, except that everyone is going to be a little bit different personality-wise anyway. So there probably aren't totally different behaviors you have to be on the lookout for. That being said, "covert" narcissists are probably people who are generally passive, since there aren't clinically-distinct forms of narcissism.
Also, how can I be open to developing feelings for someone while also on the look out for narcissistic traits? I don't want to fixate to the point where I poison the relationship, but I do seem attract / be attracted to this type and don't want to keep repeating the pattern.
These are good questions to ask yourself. Are you attracted to outward displays of confidence and self-regard? That tendency can make narcissists very charming to others. Or did you have an important relationship with a narcissist at some point in your life, maybe? Figuring out what attracts you to them will help a lot in avoiding people who have pathological tendencies.
As far as this particular guy, some things I might consider potential warning signs are: talks/ thinks about himself a lot in an introspective way
That's actually not something you'd expect a narcissist to do. They're not good at or inclined toward genuine introspection.
occasionally "blames" me for his feelings in way I take to be a joke but maybe it's not, as in "You're making me wish I was more social, thanks a lot!" in a sarcastic tone. (in response to me talking about having a lot of great friends)
This doesn't seem like a red flag. It could easily just be normal playful conversation.
expresses envy towards other people, and we seem to have very similar personalities and I think I have a few covert narcissistic traits myself.
This is totally normal. Feeling/expressing envy is not something that only narcissists do, it's just part of being human. And if you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you almost certainly aren't one.
Seemingly non-narcissist qualities: he seems considerate and kind, has respected all boundaries I've set for him, doesn't criticize or put me down in any way, handled my telling him I want to take things slowly in a very mature and considerate way, does seem to have some long-term close friends that he really cares about.
You need to start thinking about people in a more multi-dimensional way. We aren't all just locatable on a spectrum from non-narcissist to narcissist; the term describes a specific pathology, it's not a category that anyone who isn't totally selfless all the time has to be slotted into. People are complex. Maybe you should also ask yourself, beyond the questions about this guy and your own past partners, why narcissism seems to be your go-to rubric for thinking about people?
posted by clockzero at 4:55 PM on May 2, 2016 [19 favorites]
Hey, so, I dated a guy who had some serious narcissistic stuff going on. And I will say that it was a lot scarier to date other people after I dated him and finally left him. I asked myself all kinds of questions just like the ones you are asking us here. I asked questions here, too. I am now with a really nice guy, but it took me a long time to feel safe again in a relationship. Although I love my boyfriend very much and don't really want to imagine not having him in my life, I do wish I had waited longer to start dating. I may have missed out on this relationship, yes (but maybe not, who knows), but spending time getting to know myself, getting to know what I needed after being with someone who thought only of himself and his needs - the brief time I did spend alone was really good for me. I wish I had had more of it. I went through a lot of intense anxiety when my now-boyfriend and I started dating, and it was not good for me. I was not ready to date. And I think one of the ways that I now know that I was not ready to date is how hard it was, how unsure I felt, how much anxiety this produced for me on a day to day basis. It turned out ok in the end, but I did not have to go through all that. It was hard for me. It still is, sometimes, in fact, nearly four years later.
So, I don't know, from my experience I would suggest that maybe you are not ready to date yet. Or even if you are, what is the harm in waiting a bit - three months, six months, a year, whatever you decide - to date again?
Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
posted by sockermom at 4:56 PM on May 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, I don't know, from my experience I would suggest that maybe you are not ready to date yet. Or even if you are, what is the harm in waiting a bit - three months, six months, a year, whatever you decide - to date again?
Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.
posted by sockermom at 4:56 PM on May 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think you should be ono the look out for empathy. Are his apologies sincere? Is he supportive when something legit bad happens? Narcissists don't get empathy and so can't display it. This may take more than a couple months to figure out!
posted by Kalmya at 5:15 PM on May 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Kalmya at 5:15 PM on May 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Expressing envy towards others and blaming you for his feelings is not necessarily indicative of narcissism. However, if it makes you uncomfortable it is totally ok to not continue to date him. Just because he isn't a narcissist doesn't mean he might not have other issues that are dealbreakers for you.
Have you spoken to him about blaming you for his feelings? Does it happen a lot? I wouldn't tell him you think he's a narcissist, because that is a clinical diagnosis, and will likely make him defensive. Blaming a partner for your feelings is rarely a good sign, and really needs to be addressed if this is a frequent occurrence.
As far as how to deal with this, I really think you might want to consider therapy. Dating narcissist can lead to the development of PTSD-- it can be extremely traumatic, as you have experienced. It can also exacerbate narcissistic tendencies in their partner. Dating again after being with a narcissist is really hard, so be gentle with yourself. It will also help to have a neutral third party to give you some perspective on the relationship as it progresses.
Best of luck.
posted by ananci at 5:25 PM on May 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Have you spoken to him about blaming you for his feelings? Does it happen a lot? I wouldn't tell him you think he's a narcissist, because that is a clinical diagnosis, and will likely make him defensive. Blaming a partner for your feelings is rarely a good sign, and really needs to be addressed if this is a frequent occurrence.
As far as how to deal with this, I really think you might want to consider therapy. Dating narcissist can lead to the development of PTSD-- it can be extremely traumatic, as you have experienced. It can also exacerbate narcissistic tendencies in their partner. Dating again after being with a narcissist is really hard, so be gentle with yourself. It will also help to have a neutral third party to give you some perspective on the relationship as it progresses.
Best of luck.
posted by ananci at 5:25 PM on May 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
People are so obsessed with diagnosing narcissism these days. It sounds like he has a lot of really great traits (kind and considerate? respectful of boundaries? care about his friends? Those are all super important qualities in a partner), so I'd say just keep taking it slow and see how you feel about him.
A lot of people are the centre of their own universe, it doesn't make them all narcissists.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 5:29 PM on May 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
A lot of people are the centre of their own universe, it doesn't make them all narcissists.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 5:29 PM on May 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
People are so obsessed with diagnosing narcissism these days. It sounds like he has a lot of really great traits (kind and considerate? respectful of boundaries? care about his friends? Those are all super important qualities in a partner), so I'd say just keep taking it slow and see how you feel about him.
I've known 5 star manipulators who are perfect at creating the illusion of kindness and consideration, respectfulness of boundaries, and things like that, only to use it as part of a bait and hook to draw you into a world of hell. So after 2 months that doesn't really mean much. My own brother played some of these tricks -- he even used me as a prop to convince his wife that he was a good brother, when in reality he's pretty much a sadistic sociopath... before I bailed out of that situation, she was talking about divorcing him (good idea).
I'd say just take it slow, as well, and keep a watch on the flags already raised for you. You noticed them for a reason. Him blaming you for his own feelings is a really bad sign IMO, especially this early in, it's one of the hallmarks of an abuser, so keep a watch on that. The fact that you're even bringing this question here says a lot so far.
Of course you can always find someone who isn't nasty, sarcastic, and digs into you for his own feelings of inadequacy, and during the honeymoon phase, at that. They're out there. No sense in worrying so much when other options are out there.
posted by gehenna_lion at 7:48 PM on May 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've known 5 star manipulators who are perfect at creating the illusion of kindness and consideration, respectfulness of boundaries, and things like that, only to use it as part of a bait and hook to draw you into a world of hell. So after 2 months that doesn't really mean much. My own brother played some of these tricks -- he even used me as a prop to convince his wife that he was a good brother, when in reality he's pretty much a sadistic sociopath... before I bailed out of that situation, she was talking about divorcing him (good idea).
I'd say just take it slow, as well, and keep a watch on the flags already raised for you. You noticed them for a reason. Him blaming you for his own feelings is a really bad sign IMO, especially this early in, it's one of the hallmarks of an abuser, so keep a watch on that. The fact that you're even bringing this question here says a lot so far.
Of course you can always find someone who isn't nasty, sarcastic, and digs into you for his own feelings of inadequacy, and during the honeymoon phase, at that. They're out there. No sense in worrying so much when other options are out there.
posted by gehenna_lion at 7:48 PM on May 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
I feel like a lot of the diagnosing people as narcissists craze has less to do with anyone's clinical personality disorder and more to do with people (often people whose boundaries have been eroded by abuse) needing some kind of official label to feel comfortable enforcing their own boundaries. A lot of this paradigm of interpersonal relationships involves a lot of very very serious dehumanization of the people being analyzed as potential narcissists that I think is not super healthy for either people involved-- saying that any of their good qualities are a deliberate mask or lie or manipulation, almost like saying, "well, he wore a human face, but it turned out he was an immortal vampire, so of course I couldn't date him." I mean, I also think actual pathologically, dangerously narcissistic people are real; folk beliefs like this do spring from folk chronicles of abusive people who really do behave that way. But I've also seen people who were temporarily very self-absorbed because they were going through serious crises or having chemical mental health issues get tagged with the "narcissist" label, which was unhelpful for them and the people who needed to use that term to distance themselves from toxic relationships, because even though being in the orbit of someone who is being destructive in a narcissistic way makes it very difficult? Saying "no" is enough. Your no is enough, without a clinical diagnosis of the other person's immutable, inherent badness, to justify you setting boundaries or walking away.
I guess what I mean is, you don't need the permission of the absolute and damning "covert narcissist" label to decide that you don't like dating this guy and you want to stop. It's enough for you to say that you don't want to be with someone who gets sarcastic and undermining towards you (the shitty comment about you having friends/guilting you for his own lack of a social life) or who is negative enough in general interactions that it makes you unhappy to be around. Dealing with self-absorbed, abusive people-- having been in abusive relationships with those people especially-- makes it really, really fucking hard to do that-- to prioritize your own comfort and boundaries and trust that "I don't want to" is more than reason enough to walk away from a situation or person who makes you unhappy. But that is a skillset you can build as part of the process of recovery from that abuse. I don't know if this guy is a covert narcissist or not, if he's depressed, or if he just has a sarcastic/negative communication style that doesn't mesh with yours and if you would both be suited to a partner whose way of conversational bonding doesn't make the other partner upset or feel attacked. Trust yourself. I promise your own judgment and choices are enough, here, without the DSM IV to back you up. Hugs.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:06 PM on May 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
I guess what I mean is, you don't need the permission of the absolute and damning "covert narcissist" label to decide that you don't like dating this guy and you want to stop. It's enough for you to say that you don't want to be with someone who gets sarcastic and undermining towards you (the shitty comment about you having friends/guilting you for his own lack of a social life) or who is negative enough in general interactions that it makes you unhappy to be around. Dealing with self-absorbed, abusive people-- having been in abusive relationships with those people especially-- makes it really, really fucking hard to do that-- to prioritize your own comfort and boundaries and trust that "I don't want to" is more than reason enough to walk away from a situation or person who makes you unhappy. But that is a skillset you can build as part of the process of recovery from that abuse. I don't know if this guy is a covert narcissist or not, if he's depressed, or if he just has a sarcastic/negative communication style that doesn't mesh with yours and if you would both be suited to a partner whose way of conversational bonding doesn't make the other partner upset or feel attacked. Trust yourself. I promise your own judgment and choices are enough, here, without the DSM IV to back you up. Hugs.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:06 PM on May 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
but a friend recently suggested he might be a "covert narcissist".
beware this friend!
Seriously, everyone is a flawed, damaged, bruised, confused, bewildered collection of cells. The trick isn't diagnosing the ones you aren't compatible with, the trick is finding the ones you ARE compatible with and embracing their flaws as they embrace yours. Is he a covert narcissist? GASP?! Maybe?!?! But maybe your soul mate totally is too. Heck, maybe YOU are?? Jeepers creepers, you can label ANYONE SOMETHING, promise. You have some label that someone who is not your ideal mate (or their well meaning friend) could pin on you. Who cares? Either date this person and embrace, or move on. That's it.
posted by museum of fire ants at 8:32 PM on May 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
beware this friend!
Seriously, everyone is a flawed, damaged, bruised, confused, bewildered collection of cells. The trick isn't diagnosing the ones you aren't compatible with, the trick is finding the ones you ARE compatible with and embracing their flaws as they embrace yours. Is he a covert narcissist? GASP?! Maybe?!?! But maybe your soul mate totally is too. Heck, maybe YOU are?? Jeepers creepers, you can label ANYONE SOMETHING, promise. You have some label that someone who is not your ideal mate (or their well meaning friend) could pin on you. Who cares? Either date this person and embrace, or move on. That's it.
posted by museum of fire ants at 8:32 PM on May 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
There's a difference between narcissistic personality disorder, which is a specific pathology in the DSM-5, and narcissistic traits in one's personality. Those traits exist on a spectrum in varying degrees in all people. Some degree of narcissism is healthy. I've had past experience dating men with narcissistic traits, due to having an extremely narcissistic father who was diagnosed with mental illness. Unfortunately narcissistic men felt familiar and comfortable to me. But the positive of this is that I can now spot extreme narcissistic traits in a man a mile away, given time. The man you're dating, on the surface, doesn't sound overly narcissistic. It's good you're examining some things that bother you, given you've had a previous history with overtly narcissistic guys. The question is - how much time does it take to truly discover someone is not compatible with you due to their degree of narcissistic traits? The only difference between overt and covert narcissism is that someone who is covert is good at hiding it for a longer time. Narcissists can be very charming and manipulative, so it's easy to stay hooked. And when I say longer time, I mean it can be months or years. I was with my first serious boyfriend for two years, before his narcissistic traits came out full force. His narcissistic behavior was triggered by something external to our relationship, and coincided with a bi-polar breakdown for which he was hospitalized (narcissism can be a symptom of a manic phase). Someone who is extremely narcissistic (either overt or covert) will eventually end up devaluing and disrespecting you enough that you'll sense something isn't working. The #1 sign I've noticed is a lack of empathy.
From what you've written, the man you're dating doesn't sound like his narcissistic traits are severe, but two months is too soon to tell. He may be incompatible with you, but you need to get to know him better. He may be overly sarcastic and jealous. Being introspective and sharing his thoughts about himself don't make him narcissistic - he may be a poor communicator if he can't also listen to your thoughts and feelings. A guy who is narcissistic would only be able to care about his own needs - it goes beyond communication skills, which can be learned. You need to look at behavior over time. So continue to get to know him better, communicate any concerns to see how he responds, and pay attention to your intuition. Your gut is saying some things don't feel quite right now, and that may be partly due to your past experiences and friend's comment. If things still don't feel right after getting to know him better, this guy isn't a good fit for you. The best way I've found to balance trusting someone enough to open myself up, while also paying attention to narcissistic traits, is to keep a journal. I can then go back and re-read what I've written to look for patterns. Only you can be the judge of your relationship. Trust your judgement.
posted by mountainpeak at 8:53 PM on May 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
From what you've written, the man you're dating doesn't sound like his narcissistic traits are severe, but two months is too soon to tell. He may be incompatible with you, but you need to get to know him better. He may be overly sarcastic and jealous. Being introspective and sharing his thoughts about himself don't make him narcissistic - he may be a poor communicator if he can't also listen to your thoughts and feelings. A guy who is narcissistic would only be able to care about his own needs - it goes beyond communication skills, which can be learned. You need to look at behavior over time. So continue to get to know him better, communicate any concerns to see how he responds, and pay attention to your intuition. Your gut is saying some things don't feel quite right now, and that may be partly due to your past experiences and friend's comment. If things still don't feel right after getting to know him better, this guy isn't a good fit for you. The best way I've found to balance trusting someone enough to open myself up, while also paying attention to narcissistic traits, is to keep a journal. I can then go back and re-read what I've written to look for patterns. Only you can be the judge of your relationship. Trust your judgement.
posted by mountainpeak at 8:53 PM on May 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
A lot of people are the centre of their own universe, it doesn't make them all narcissists.
Did you or your friend read that Science Of Us article that tries to cast navel-gazey introverts as covert narcissists? If some of this is coming from that, please try to erase it from your memory.
It sounds like he's overthinky about his life and occasionally feels crummy about it in a way he externalizes poorly. That does not a narcissist make. Sometimes people are just self-effacing. If that makes you uncomfortable, that that's cool, but it sounds like he's expressing normal, natural facets of the human condition.
I sympathize with you having your hackles up, but please don't pathologize his (or your own) perfectly normal behaviour.
posted by blerghamot at 9:18 PM on May 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
Did you or your friend read that Science Of Us article that tries to cast navel-gazey introverts as covert narcissists? If some of this is coming from that, please try to erase it from your memory.
It sounds like he's overthinky about his life and occasionally feels crummy about it in a way he externalizes poorly. That does not a narcissist make. Sometimes people are just self-effacing. If that makes you uncomfortable, that that's cool, but it sounds like he's expressing normal, natural facets of the human condition.
I sympathize with you having your hackles up, but please don't pathologize his (or your own) perfectly normal behaviour.
posted by blerghamot at 9:18 PM on May 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
One thing I just thought to clarify - when I wrote "communicate any concerns to see how he responds," I didn't mean your concerns about his narcissistic traits. I meant communicate with him about your other concerns. For example, you could explain you'd like to feel listened to more, or tell him when you feel blamed. Keep the focus on your own feelings and needs, and stay positive. What do you need with this guy to feel more safe and secure?
posted by mountainpeak at 10:09 PM on May 2, 2016
posted by mountainpeak at 10:09 PM on May 2, 2016
occasionally "blames" me for his feelings in way I take to be a joke but maybe it's not, as in "You're making me wish I was more social, thanks a lot!" in a sarcastic tone. (in response to me talking about having a lot of great friends)
Yeah...can you ask him if this is a joke? And watch his response to that (hint, you're looking for "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way" and not "You're so sensitive" or "Can't you take a joke?") I am sarcastic as hell and can't imagine saying that to someone I've just started dating.
Does he regularly drink too much or ever brag about being an asshole? I've found that those track pretty well with being an intractable jerk, which has the advantage of not requiring a degree in psychiatry to diagnose.
posted by ziggly at 10:47 PM on May 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
a friend recently suggested he might be a "covert narcissist"
Ask your friend about why they think this.
Mefi can't tell you what traits your friend has seen in this man. Your friend might mean a completely different thing by "covert narcissist" than anyone here is interpreting the label to mean.
posted by yohko at 11:39 AM on May 3, 2016
Ask your friend about why they think this.
Mefi can't tell you what traits your friend has seen in this man. Your friend might mean a completely different thing by "covert narcissist" than anyone here is interpreting the label to mean.
posted by yohko at 11:39 AM on May 3, 2016
Random traits from the DSM are like a horoscope: Generally vague enough that you can talk yourself into most things. Don't armchair diagnose people; it create little realities and judgement and biases in your mind that limits your understanding of people around you. There is a reason therapists are not friends with their clients, diagnosis is not a loving or friendly practice.
I'd worry about how you feel about him. Is he someone you like/love? does he improve your life? That's what matters.
posted by French Fry at 12:57 PM on May 3, 2016
I'd worry about how you feel about him. Is he someone you like/love? does he improve your life? That's what matters.
posted by French Fry at 12:57 PM on May 3, 2016
Response by poster: Thanks everyone! These weren't the kind of answers I was expecting but they are far more helpful.
I admit I was a bit freaked out when I posted this question and I realized it's because after my last two relationships, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop with this one. Being able to label this guy a narcissist would be more comfortable because it's a situation that, sadly, I'm used to and familiar with.
Thanks for pointing out the problems with labeling people however. It's not really useful and I understand I would be better off focusing instead on individual behaviors that won't be acceptable to me and on developing my own boundaries in general. And that I don't need to "diagnose" people in order to justify this. (And I'm seeing a therapist!)
sockermom, your comment really hit home. I realized I was only really "over" my last bf for about a month before I met this guy and probably am not really ready to date again. I have been having a lot of anxiety about the whole thing so obviously I have more healing to do than I originally thought I needed.
Thanks again!
posted by seraph9 at 4:55 PM on May 3, 2016
I admit I was a bit freaked out when I posted this question and I realized it's because after my last two relationships, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop with this one. Being able to label this guy a narcissist would be more comfortable because it's a situation that, sadly, I'm used to and familiar with.
Thanks for pointing out the problems with labeling people however. It's not really useful and I understand I would be better off focusing instead on individual behaviors that won't be acceptable to me and on developing my own boundaries in general. And that I don't need to "diagnose" people in order to justify this. (And I'm seeing a therapist!)
sockermom, your comment really hit home. I realized I was only really "over" my last bf for about a month before I met this guy and probably am not really ready to date again. I have been having a lot of anxiety about the whole thing so obviously I have more healing to do than I originally thought I needed.
Thanks again!
posted by seraph9 at 4:55 PM on May 3, 2016
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All your "pro" items should be bare minimum requirements for seeing him again, not huge selling points or reasons to overlook things that bother you. Remember that things that nag at you in the early stages will often be the things you cannot stand one more second of when you finally leave.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:35 PM on May 2, 2016 [8 favorites]