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No Narcissists, Please
July 20, 2012 10:29 AM   Subscribe

How can I reprogram myself so I am no longer attracting (and becoming attracted to) narcissistic men?

Somehow or another I have realized that I ONLY am attracted to, and thus date, narcissists or men with narcissistic tendencies. This is a pattern in my life and I am not sure how to break it, but I must if I am ever to have success in finding a life partner. I also seem to attract this personality type exclusively, and I can't identify what it is that I do that makes me such an appealing target.

How can I figure out what it is that attracts me to these men and these types of men alone, and what steps can I take to reprogram myself so that a) I can filter them out when they come my way, and b) stop finding them so alluring? My therapist has some ideas, but so far, I don't feel like we've really gotten to the root of the issue and I have no idea where to start.
posted by Hello Darling to Human Relations (29 answers total) 19 users marked this as a favorite
 
I don't feel like we've really gotten to the root of the issue

Try this framework:

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Therapy-Step-By-Step-Wholeness-Cutting-Edge-Psychotherapy/dp/0984392777

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Family_Systems_Model

It has blown my mind in terms of how deep I could go in a handful of three-hour sessions over a month versus years of therapy.

This is not (yet?) a evidence-based protocol, but like I said mind=blown. YMMV.
posted by zeek321 at 10:37 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Also, FWIW, my type can usually be described as: intelligent, witty, good flirt, class clown, wealthy (common feature that I don't seek out deliberately), nerdy, good at their profession, and sort of sexually charged. Which of these things do I really need to reconsider my attractions towards?
posted by Hello Darling at 10:38 AM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


That's interesting -- to me good flirt + class clown + wealthy + sexually charged = high potential for cockiness. Can any of the guys you've dated be described as cocky? I find that people are often attracted to such men but that they tend to have narcissistic tendencies. I can think of several men I know who are like that. Of course it is possible to have all those qualities and not be cocky, but that has not been my experience.
posted by peacheater at 10:42 AM on July 20, 2012


my type can usually be described as: intelligent, witty, good flirt, class clown, wealthy (common feature that I don't seek out deliberately), nerdy, good at their profession, and sort of sexually charged

How about adding kind to that list? Those traits aren't bad by themselves, but make the ability to show and act on real compassion a priority attraction.
posted by griselda at 10:44 AM on July 20, 2012 [13 favorites]


Which of these things do I really need to reconsider my attractions towards?

The "class clown" part. Obviously, you are attracted to people who always need to be the center of attention at all times. Also, start looking for features that are actually reflective of having a good value system, not just a bunch of outward identifiers.
posted by deanc at 10:47 AM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


All right, here's a kind of wild stab in the dark. A bunch of the behaviors your describe as your type are kind of "look-at-me" behaviors. Is it possible that you are kind of a shy person who might like to get more attention from the world, but it might be easier for you to orbit around someone who does get that kind of attention?

With being sexually charged, is it possible that they pay you this kind of intense attention that is exciting?

Is it possible that there are traits in these guys that actually, you might like to have for yourself, but might not feel like you have that charisma or spark?

If any of that might be going on, then maybe the best thing to do would be to start developing some of those traits in yourself. If you had them, you might not feel as much of a need to look for them in guys.
posted by cairdeas at 10:48 AM on July 20, 2012 [15 favorites]


I am the same.

I'm not sure if you're like this, but I don't think it's the narcissism alone that consciously attracts me. It's more that I'm drawn to certain qualities that when found together seem to correlate highly with narcissism in men, and that narcissism can sometimes take on the appearance of those qualities:
1) high verbal intelligence
2) charm and being a smooth talker, forceful way of speaking
3) confidence
4) in a creative profession
5) intensity

The way I've sort of broken the pattern is twofold:

1) By identifying the traits I actually find attractive (see above) and figuring out when I'm confusing narcissism with those traits. In other words, a guy may not actually be that smart or interesting but I'm fooled by his superficial confidence into thinking that he is. As I've met more narcissists over the years, it's become easier for me to see past superficial charm and identify when I'm being "tricked."

2) I have also accepted that a certain degree of narcissism will be inevitable in any guy I find attractive because it always seems to go along with the other traits that draw me in, and because I think I do find it attractive on its own in extreme moderation. So a little bit of narcissism in a guy I've learned to accept, but he has to also be giving and loving. At this point I have trained myself to be immediately turned off by the more extreme narcissists.
posted by timsneezed at 10:49 AM on July 20, 2012 [11 favorites]


Oh wow, cocky is exactly how I would describe every guy I've ever been with, and yes, they all love being the center of attention to the nth degree.

Cairdeas, I'm not shy -- but I do like attention, too, and yes, the intense sexual attention I get from these guys is super satisfying and appealing to me.

Timesneezed, the 5 traits you've identified are very much applicable to the men in my life, too.
posted by Hello Darling at 10:54 AM on July 20, 2012


I think you need to reconsider your attraction to these traits: wealthy, class clowns and sexually charged*.

*sexually charged is a little vague. This could mean anything from being flirtatious with and having a high sex drive around women he's in an exclusive relationship with (good) to being flirty with ALL WOMEN and having an insatiable thirst for different women (bad).

If a guy is born wealthy he is likely to be more spoiled and entitled in my experience. Self made men are probably less likely to be narcissistic on average, although there are also plenty of Charles Foster Kanes.

I don't see any benefit to dating a class clown type. Funny guys are great but who wants to be with someone who is reliant on the external validation of everyone.

The other traits seem reasonable to me.
posted by timsneezed at 10:57 AM on July 20, 2012


Yeah. So at this point I find these cocky guys a huge turn-off, though this was not always the case. When I was 18 or so I got into a sort of pseudo-relationship with one of these guys, even though I intellectually knew better. I (naively) thought I would just have a little meaningless fling, but it is amazing how quickly I got so involved in this guy. I became hungry for his affection and he manipulated me like a pro, turning the charm on and off as he chose. It was sad, and when it finally ended (after about six months) I decided to tread very warily in the future. At this point, I find these guys really off-putting and attention-seeking. Any time I see a guy who feels the need to dominate the conversation, treats one woman like she's the most perfect being on earth and ignores all the others -- someone who's basically full of himself, but can still be extremely charming, I mentally put a little warning flag next to him in my head. You can train yourself to do this too.
posted by peacheater at 11:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


When you look back upon your last relationship, you probably can recall many, many instances of your boyfriend's undesirable traits. What are the earliest instances you can remember? Think about those -- did you notice them then? How did you feel, and what did you do?

A lot of us end up with bad partners because we tolerate the bad behavior. At first, I would hardly even notice it because I was into the guy. I let things slide because I didn't want to seem difficult, or I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt -- and besides, he was probably on his good behavior early on. But the bad treatment continued and increased, and after a while I'd be saying, "It's happening again... why do I end up with these guys?"

If you can think back and recognize times back in the beginning of a relationship when you tolerated narcissistic behavior, you can train yourself to notice it when it's happening in a current relationship. You can then say, "here is what I need from you." If the guy really is bad news, you'll know pretty soon.

I'm not suggesting that it's easy. You'd have to find the courage to actually state what you need and want, and you might have to learn how to express it. I wasn't comfortable saying to anyone, "This is what I want/need" or "I have this boundary, please respect it." I had a hard time saying no to anyone, ever -- let alone to a guy I was involved with.

In my experience, what helped me was first forcing myself to stick up for my own needs. At first, it was about little things, and with people who were much less a part of my life than my boyfriend was. I had to work up to the ability to draw a line in my relationship and then refuse to accept its being breached.

I sincerely wish you well.
posted by wryly at 11:07 AM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I was kind of that way. What happened to me was that, following a bad relationship, I developed sensitivities to certain behaviors, attitudes, and beliefs. They were immediately A MAJOR DEALBREAKER, and I would not be able to let go of them unless they were retracted. I don't know how to teach what happened to me, which felt like I'd installed a high-end security system -- sirens would start wailing, metal perimeter gates would come down, and all normal activity with that person would cease until this was resolved. The few times this happened, it was very instinctual. So, when you say you like narcissistic guys, what is not working for you? And can you develop zero tolerance for it? Then, it's not a matter of rewiring your attraction system, but of filtering those to whom you're attracted for the negative sides of narcissism. You may well find someone who has the funny, charismatic positive traits but who has also developed a greater ability to see and care for others. And if you have low tolerance for the downsides, you'll further teach them what behaviors you will and won't accept.
posted by salvia at 11:14 AM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


The problem isn't who you are attracted to. Its continuing to go out with them after you decide that you don't really like them.

Continue to date who you want but give yourself the break of dropping them when they don't turn out how you like.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:34 AM on July 20, 2012 [9 favorites]


intelligent, witty, good flirt,

All fine.

class clown,

MASSIVE RED FLAG.

wealthy (common feature that I don't seek out deliberately),

Meh.

nerdy, good at their profession, and sort of sexually charged.

Again, all fine.

I agree with deanc absent the "class clown" part, you're just describing a successful professional guy. But add the "class clown" part and "sophisticate" can turn into "jackass" faster than you can blink.

What you're saying is that you want a combination of confidence and humility. Only the former = jackass. Which is pretty important if you want to be successful these days, and it can even be okay if they're even halfway as good as they think they are. But even then it'll get old pretty quickly. Only the latter = wuss. That's generally not attractive to anyone, particularly women who want someone to give them a run for their money, as it were.
posted by valkyryn at 11:37 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


This guy (he writes a lot about narcissism, but I don't know about his credentials) would probably classify you as inverted narcissist; he distinguishes between cerebral and somatic narcissists, and you are probably attracted to somatic type.
posted by leigh1 at 11:39 AM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Narcissim is not the same a strong, confident, or put together.

This is my dating mantra. I say it every time someone starts to act like an asshole.

Shou: Why am I attracted to this asshole?

Shou's mind: Because you are confusing narcissim with strength and confidence again.

Shou: Oh yeah, that's right! Silly me, I know where that road leads.

Action taken: DTMFA

Train yourself to do this. It has completely changed my dating life by keeping me directed towards the qualities I am really attracted to by removing the imitators.
posted by Shouraku at 12:19 PM on July 20, 2012 [8 favorites]


Ok, long post because I have some free time.

I've been in your situation before. There is nothing wrong with the traits you described, unless they are painting a complete picture. I agree with the earlier suggestion to adding traits to your list.

Look for: selflessness, humility, genuine kindness, and compassion. Don't mistake loyalty, integrity, and politeness for these traits.

Maybe this will help you - from my experience, asking these questions of myself quickly identifies narcissists from among the cocky/confident/witty crowd:

How do they act around strangers? Are they compassionate and caring, giving people the benefit of the doubt? Or are they confrontational and direct to the edge of rudeness (mistaken for confidence)? Are they genuinely kind, or just polite per the rules of etiquette? If a waiter gets your order wrong and is pretty incompetent at their job, how do they react? If someone pushes past them in a crowd, how do they react? If someone cuts in front of them in line, how do they react? What if someone cuts them off while driving? Narcissists, in my experience, react much stronger to perceived slights against them, and some people might mistake the confrontational aspect as integrity or bravery.

How much time are they willing to put out to help strangers or acquaintances (not friends/family, which is a loyalty trait)? There's a difference between giving someone a dollar on the street, and being willing to volunteer time for a cause. Is their time extremely valuable that they don't want to waste it on others or compromise? If you want to do something that they have zero interest in, will they come happily or do you need to argue about it for a while? Do they make judgements about your hobbies or choices because they would do it differently? Do you find yourself compromising more often than them? Do they make negative judgments about others' hobbies?

Do they talk a lot about how most people in the world are idiots? Do they say negative things about people they've never met? Do they say critical things about a stranger or acquaintance's looks, hobbies, mannerisms (i.e. 'such a hipster' or 'oh god she's fat')? Do they consider everyone from the opposing political/regligious spectrum to be morons or incompetent? Do they say negative things about whole groups of people? This counts even if it's just jokes. It doesn't have to be racist or standard bigotry. For example, dismissing all the homeless in the city as worthless drug-addicts is a simplistic, negative judgement about a group of people. Once can just be ignorance or lack of reflection, but regular statements like that are pretty telling.

A lot of this is about how they see other people. They will paint other people as less worthy, less smart, less attractive than themselves. His time is more valuable. His choices are better. His hobbies are more interesting. His beliefs are more correct. They are judgements in which he sets himself up as better than others. Many are good at disguising this this as as knowing what they want and not letting others get in the way, confidence in their own beliefs or opinions, and a charming smile to make it seem like a joke and soften the bite.

Once you realize that a lot of the cocky-confident-jokey attitude is really about denigrating others and the assumption that he is better than them, it becomes a lot less attractive.
posted by subject_verb_remainder at 12:20 PM on July 20, 2012 [29 favorites]


Narcissim is not the same a strong, confident, or put together.

To put this another way, cocky does not = confident. A guy who is really all that, and really confident of it, does not need to be showing off and seeking attention and proving himself to other people. Once you understand that, not just intellectually but truly "get" how that works, these guys will magically become a lot less attractive to you. (Of course then you may have another kind of problem, because the really good ones are less common and other women have figured that out too, but...one step at a time.)
posted by DestinationUnknown at 12:30 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


It's also very possible that there is something more about you than them. I'm glad you're seeing a therapist because an outside perspective that has time to listen to the whole story (unlike us) can be very valuable.

One thing is that Narcissist are trying to be attractive. They want attention and validation of their superiority. A lot of people date them and dump them because the flash wears off and there is just a jerk underneath.

But people with borderline-personality features don't leave them. They love them and are very very easily manipulated by them. The Borderline-Narcissist pairing is classic, and wildly bad for both parties in the long run, but very satisfying in the short-mid term.

I'm not saying you have borderline-personality disorder or even that these men are genuine narcissist (both serious business) but you should consider how your own make up might be contributing. Are you a giver, are you sometimes shy in big groups, do you like external validation more than internal, do you adapt your behavior to seek approval etc?

Because if so, that might be your "problem" with these men.
posted by French Fry at 1:01 PM on July 20, 2012 [7 favorites]


One thing you might want to do is pay attention to what happens when you first meet a guy, since unhealthy people will often give subtle "tests" in the very beginning. Case in point: I was at a concert a couple weeks ago with my sister and her friend, both 22, when some douchy guy next to us struck up a conversation by trying to steal the friend's pretzel. My sister recognized the guy as being a tool immediately, but the friend spent the next three hours talking to him. (My sister told me there were a ton of stories involving the friend not engaging douchy behavior.)

Next, you may be sending out subtle cues that more caring people pick up on, leading them to avoid you, because they respect boundaries, which means the people who wind up getting through do not.

Third, comparisons help... I'm mindful of people in relationships like the ones I want to be in. If I notice, "I could never see X acting this way" when X is someone in a solid relationship, that's often the start of a series of realizations about the person, sort of the converse of the conventional wisdom that people who are around bad relationships imitate bad relationships. I also compare the way the person treats me with the way they treat other people. There shouldn't be a huge difference, and if there's anyone that person treats badly, that's a huge red flag.
posted by alphanerd at 1:21 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


You need to find a guy who is exactly like the ones you're attracted to, but who reserve the "class clown" aspect of their personalities for people they're close to. So you're going to have to meet 'em through other people you know, who say things like "oh yeah, he's quiet and dignified in public, but when he's with people he knows really well and is really close to, he's a hilarious goofball."
posted by davejay at 3:13 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


I used to have a really bad man picker and was attracted to cocky guys. After one particularly bad breakup, I was at a store and bumped into the owner...okay looking, but with that cocky, somewhat aloof thing that immediately attracted me in THAT WAY. I don't know if it was the fact that the situation wasn't one where we would make anything other than a commercial transaction, but I accepted and realized something that day.

I accepted that was always going to be attracted to that type and I realized that when I felt that immediate attraction without knowing anything more than the pull of the attraction, I should stay the hell away. I came to implicitly trust that I did not need to pursue anything further with these new cocky guys because I had already dated them --albeit in different bodies-- countless times before. And I also knew how that story ends and it was never pretty. So when I was still single and felt that attraction, I would simply walk away and never turn back.

My "Feel Super Attraction? Run Away!" advice might seem overly-simplistic and doesn't really answer all of your questions (i.e. why the allure?), but sometimes you just don't get them answered. But it solved my problem of dating cocky, arrogant jerks immediately and will yours too.

I am now married to the antithesis of the cocky guy now and he is wonderful and kind and everything one could hope for from a husband. I am very attracted to him but that is because I know him through and through and there is a hell of a lot to be attracted to, not the least of which is his abundant kindness. But had I kept on chasing cocky jerks down that same damned rabbit hole as opposed to stepping over it and looking for something better, I wouldn't be where I am today.
posted by murrey at 3:23 PM on July 20, 2012 [5 favorites]


I think you're attracted to narcissists because they are attractive, until you get to know them.

What isn't attractive (to me) is the class clown shtick. To be boring and literal minded, it's a class, not a stand-up comedy slam with him as the only contestant. It's supposed to be about the course material, and he turns it into a show featuring The Great Him. That shows a need to always be the centre of attention in inappropriate contexts. Now if a guy is witty... Gotta like that.

It sounds like you look for guys who are overtly narcissistic but don't forget that a good social presentation is actually part of the disorder. These guys can be better at seeming kind and caring than anyone you know, but the thing about them is that even their actions lie. They have no values, they only know how to posture for favourable effect, so the covert ones will act low-key because they sense that you want this. As for not taking slights well - I was amazed at how graciously one of them handled something that would have sent me on an international killing spree. He just did not show the signs that would have given him away, for a long time. The thing is that everyone will show their true colours eventually. I can look back and see when he turned and I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of all the good experiences I'd had with him until then. But a number of those things were not really attributable to having even the worst of bad days, and all of those things showed inordinate self regard. Moral: should've ditched that bitch on the second chance, not waited for the third.

So yeah, but it does sound like you're going for outwardly narcissistic guys. Maybe you should take some classes in performance skills and make the class clown sit in the corner with a dunce's cap.

Also what alpha nerd said, well observed. All these things take time, but watch for tests on early interactions.
posted by tel3path at 3:36 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


These guys can be better at seeming kind and caring than anyone you know, but the thing about them is that even their actions lie. They have no values, they only know how to posture for favourable effect, so the covert ones will act low-key because they sense that you want this. As for not taking slights well - I was amazed at how graciously one of them handled something that would have sent me on an international killing spree.

Yes, a lot of narcissists actually seem very empathetic, warm and giving at first. In fact my experience with them flies in the face of the common wisdom that they're ungrateful/rude with strangers. If anything they make a point of responding in the most socially acceptable way, even when someone has slighted them (in a minor way. This is part of their image of personal perfection and integrity that they strive to uphold. They generally have an easy time being warm with strangers/acquaintances who don't need anything from them, but if you try to get close to them or put any real demands on them they will turn.

There may be a higher level of narcissist who is outwardly rude with everyone he perceives as beneath him, the kind of cartoonish bosses you see depicted in movies who throw staplers and telephones at his assistants. I've only encountered a handful of those, and they usually have a lot of power which allows them to get away with their antics. But the covert narcissists are far more common (and dangerous).
posted by timsneezed at 3:50 PM on July 20, 2012 [4 favorites]


I know you said you're not shy, but how about assertiveness? Do you happen to find it difficult to say no to people when you know you're letting them down? I tend to date men who are similar to those described by yourself and timsneezed, and I realized a while back that one of the things I find attractive is their willingness to say "No" when something doesn't suit them. I'm usually someone who will put their own needs aside to accommodate or be kind to others, and I find it absolutely mesmerizing when someone has the .. confidence and force of will to be all, "Nah, sorry, that's not going to work for me." Unfortunately this can also lead to some pretty narcissistic tendencies, as you've noticed.

My solution, such as it is, is to try and teach myself that it's okay to say "No" sometimes.
posted by jess at 4:08 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


I used the "Feel Super Attraction? Run Away!" method that murrey described above for awhile. I explained it in my own words here and here.

There is actually some good material in the archives on this. Good search terms are "spark," "passion," and "chemistry." Sometimes people have spark with the wrong type of person (as you do). Others have a good partner but worry that they don't feel that spark. Is it "real love" without that intense feeling, they ask. You might end up with that question if you start dating non-narcissistic people and find someone you really like but who doesn't give you that thrill. Here is my comment in one, linking to a couple others. (Sorry to be so self-linky. It's just easier to find the threads that I commented in.)
posted by salvia at 6:27 PM on July 20, 2012 [1 favorite]


Hooks and Bait. Theirs and Yours. Know which is which.

Narcissists need an audience. Their sense of self and self-worth is grounded in what other people think of them - others are the mirror they hold to themselves. They can't respond well to the needs and feelings of others, but they desperately need others to tell them who they are. That's their hook.

The charm, wit, intelligence, warmth, charisma, power and sexual assertiveness are stand ins for basic empathy and responsiveness. That's the bait. Why else would anyone put up with them?

Since you say you habitually date narcissistic men, the hook for you is seeking out and dating men who can't respond to your needs and feelings. It seems like the attention they give, the attraction/sex, humor, intelligence...whatever... is the hook. But really, it's the bait.

It's just that with narcissists their hooks and your hooks match up pretty well. They can't respond to the needs or feelings of others and you seek out guys who can't respond to yours. Your bait to them may be some long-chained set of reactions that tell them that you are a good mirror.

So start there in the reprogramming.

It's not "I'm drawn to men who are intelligent, witty, good flirt, class clown, wealthy (common feature that I don't seek out deliberately), nerdy, good at their profession, and sort of sexually charged

It's "I'm drawn to men who can't respond to my needs and feelings." Rinse and repeat.

What comes after that depends on how you make sense of why you're drawn to these types of guys and how you will learn to want guys who are witty, intelligent, sexy and also just really good guys.
posted by space_cookie at 7:29 PM on July 20, 2012 [2 favorites]


It's funny--I almost just thought of posting this question myself. Glad you asked it.

Echoing everything subject_verb_remainder said times ten. Especially this: Is their time extremely valuable that they don't want to waste it on others or compromise? If you want to do something that they have zero interest in, will they come happily or do you need to argue about it for a while?

A few other things I've noticed:

--Tendency to have a very beautiful mother and/or think his mother is very beautiful and talk about it. Yes, this is not true for all narcissists and many people have beautiful mothers without becoming narcissists, but all of the narcissists I've dated have had this in common. If he mentions how beautiful his mother is very early in the relationship, particularly in an objectifying way ("My mother looks like a movie star"), make a mental note to yourself. He will evaluate you against an unrealistic standard. Bonus points if he describes his mother as having borderline-personality-like traits. As noted above, the narcissist-borderline relationship is a classic one so this can be a signal.

--If you suspect he's a narcissist, but are unsure or can't contain yourself and have to see him, find a way to visit his apartment. If he's a narcissist he will (probably) either be one of two ways:

1) completely unconcerned with your comfort at his place. He hasn't changed the sheets in months, toilet isn't working--oops, he doesn't offer you a glass of water or make you feel like you can get one yourself. He is completely unapologetic about your lack of comfort there and actually doesn't seem to notice the squalor or your very reasonable discomfort (bonus points if the squalor is related to his very important job). The difference between a narcissist and a just messy (or depressed) bachelor is that the messy bachelor will feel slightly embarrassed and will try to make you comfortable, whereas the narcissist's implicit attitude is "deal with it."

Or, 2) He is so obsessively concerned with how he comes across that his hosting almost makes you uncomfortable. In my most recent experience with the latter kind, I arrived at his (immaculate) apartment and he had left a small glass of sparkling white wine and a bowl of raspberries on the table, which, yes, with some people would be completely sweet but just felt very "off."

With respect to the money thing: This could be generational, but if he has family money and has found a way to avoid having any job so that he could pursue artistic ambitions, he may end up acting like a narcissist even if he isn't really one, in which case it doesn't really matter whether he is one or not because he's not going to be a good partner.

After the white wine and raspberry guy I decided I would follow the metafilter advice and run the other way whenever I was strongly attracted to anyone. It's a work in progress but one I would recommend, echoing what others have said upthread.
posted by luckdragon at 8:14 PM on July 20, 2012 [3 favorites]


Not clear if the guys you date are entirely your type, as described, but "wealthy" stood out. Dunno if you're around a disproportionate number of wealthy men, but there's something to the thought that once is accident, twice is coincidence and thrice is neither.

As people have noted, there is a tendency that the stuff you're trying to avoid is more prevalent among the wealthy.

How it operationally comes to pass that you're interacting with these men might be some worthwhile food for thought.
posted by ambient2 at 12:57 AM on July 21, 2012


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