Declare desire for relationship with my friend/lover?
December 19, 2005 3:37 AM Subscribe
I have known Ben for about a year. We went on dates a few times at the beginning of our acquaintance, but nothing happened. A while later, we declared our desire for each other and ended up in bed. He has been in an open relationship with Sarah for the last 9 months, and in that time he and I have become close friends and also slept together three times. I have really fallen for him - should I declare my desire for a relationship with him? [More details...]
* Ben was seeing Sarah before he and I met. She then broke up with him, and after he and I met, he asked me out on a date. While we were dating, he got back together with Sarah (and has been with her since) but didn't tell me until he and I slept together.
* Ben is an honest, reliable, kind-hearted, fun friend, but I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships.
* Ben and I are really quite close friends. We spend a fair amount of time together, talk about everything and both enjoy each other's company terrifically. I should note, there is always a flirty undercurrent to our conversations, with lots of touching. This increases when we are drunk, and occassionally leads to us sleeping together.
* I care for Ben more than anyone I've met for years.
Why am I asking now? Mainly because we slept together again last week, and I can't keep this up forever. It is hard to be friends with someone you care for, and to sometimes sleep with them but most of the time not.
So, what I need to know is whether I should declare my desire for a relationship. I would like to know: a) what are my chances of losing a friend? b) have you any intuition on my chances of a positive response from him? c) how should I broach the subject?
* Ben was seeing Sarah before he and I met. She then broke up with him, and after he and I met, he asked me out on a date. While we were dating, he got back together with Sarah (and has been with her since) but didn't tell me until he and I slept together.
* Ben is an honest, reliable, kind-hearted, fun friend, but I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships.
* Ben and I are really quite close friends. We spend a fair amount of time together, talk about everything and both enjoy each other's company terrifically. I should note, there is always a flirty undercurrent to our conversations, with lots of touching. This increases when we are drunk, and occassionally leads to us sleeping together.
* I care for Ben more than anyone I've met for years.
Why am I asking now? Mainly because we slept together again last week, and I can't keep this up forever. It is hard to be friends with someone you care for, and to sometimes sleep with them but most of the time not.
So, what I need to know is whether I should declare my desire for a relationship. I would like to know: a) what are my chances of losing a friend? b) have you any intuition on my chances of a positive response from him? c) how should I broach the subject?
The way you describe him, Ben doesn't sound like much of a catch. You can declare your feelings to him, and maybe he'll take you up on them and maybe he won't, but either way, it sounds like it won't end well.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:48 AM on December 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:48 AM on December 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
Oh, and after looking at your blog, it seems you are having some questions about your own sexual identity. I would make sure that you have squared that before committing to your friend Ben. If you are interested in playing the field (both teams) while in a relationship with him, it could ruin the relationship and the friendship. With all the baggage that seems to be represented in your question + blog, I would seriously consider not moving ahead with Ben.
posted by qwip at 3:48 AM on December 19, 2005
posted by qwip at 3:48 AM on December 19, 2005
(I'm a big believer in Karma, so if was me, I wouldn't be having "the sex" with him anymore. Personally, I wouldn't want to be with someone that cheated on his girlfriend with me - karmatically speaking, that's just begging him to cheat on YOU with another girl.)
THAT SAID:
a) babe, you're not friends now. You're in "friends with benefits" territory.
b) quite honestly, I'm not sure. On one hand, you said that you've known him for a year, so you have his personality down pretty well. But you also said that he did cheat on his girlfriend with you, so that says something entirely different.
c) I think that if you do tell him, it should be a sort of ultimatum type thing. Just say something like, "I have feelings for you and I can't stop them." And if you were "rull smart", you would include something along the lines of "I sholdn't have slept with you while you were with her, so I'm going to suggest we cool things off dramatically until you decide what you want."
Quick story: I was in a similar situation with a boy a while back (not the cheating part, but everything else). I had the lusty-loin feelings for him, and decided to tell him that I wanted us to give the relationship thing a "go". He decided that he didn't like that set-up, and he cut off all contact with me. Yeah, it was partly my fault for waiting so long to ask, but then again, he proved how "strongly" he felt about me. He wanted us to continue to be "friends with benefits" only - he made noise about being happy with how we were at the time, why ruin it, blah blah blah. He might have wanted a relationship, who knows. But the point is, he didn't want one with me. I should have seen it coming and I didn't.
I'd say, in this situation, tell him your feelings, but cut bait. If he really feels strongly about you, he'll come to you and call things off with his girlfriend. But the real question is, do you really want to be with someone that's cheating on his girlfriend with you? Aside from the karma thing, it's not respectful at all to her OR to you.
posted by damnjezebel at 3:55 AM on December 19, 2005
THAT SAID:
a) babe, you're not friends now. You're in "friends with benefits" territory.
b) quite honestly, I'm not sure. On one hand, you said that you've known him for a year, so you have his personality down pretty well. But you also said that he did cheat on his girlfriend with you, so that says something entirely different.
c) I think that if you do tell him, it should be a sort of ultimatum type thing. Just say something like, "I have feelings for you and I can't stop them." And if you were "rull smart", you would include something along the lines of "I sholdn't have slept with you while you were with her, so I'm going to suggest we cool things off dramatically until you decide what you want."
Quick story: I was in a similar situation with a boy a while back (not the cheating part, but everything else). I had the lusty-loin feelings for him, and decided to tell him that I wanted us to give the relationship thing a "go". He decided that he didn't like that set-up, and he cut off all contact with me. Yeah, it was partly my fault for waiting so long to ask, but then again, he proved how "strongly" he felt about me. He wanted us to continue to be "friends with benefits" only - he made noise about being happy with how we were at the time, why ruin it, blah blah blah. He might have wanted a relationship, who knows. But the point is, he didn't want one with me. I should have seen it coming and I didn't.
I'd say, in this situation, tell him your feelings, but cut bait. If he really feels strongly about you, he'll come to you and call things off with his girlfriend. But the real question is, do you really want to be with someone that's cheating on his girlfriend with you? Aside from the karma thing, it's not respectful at all to her OR to you.
posted by damnjezebel at 3:55 AM on December 19, 2005
To those saying that he cheated on his girlfriend with her, it's not technically true. He's in an *open* relationship.
To answer the question: it doesn't sound like he's all that interested in having a relationship with you. Or with anyone, for that matter. If you want to be in an open relationship with him, the way he is with Sarah, he might be open to that, but it doesn't sound like he's up for the whole "settling down with one person" thing. I wouldn't even bother asking him, if that's what you're looking for.
posted by antifuse at 4:05 AM on December 19, 2005
To answer the question: it doesn't sound like he's all that interested in having a relationship with you. Or with anyone, for that matter. If you want to be in an open relationship with him, the way he is with Sarah, he might be open to that, but it doesn't sound like he's up for the whole "settling down with one person" thing. I wouldn't even bother asking him, if that's what you're looking for.
posted by antifuse at 4:05 AM on December 19, 2005
a) your chances are high of losing a friend in my opinion, if you offer a "relationship or nothing" scenario. However since you say you can't go on like this forever, this might be a better way to do that than at some point just have the whole thing taper off, or have Sarah put the kibosh on it.
b) yes, my intuition says that you have little or no chance of pulling this off. I don't mean to be negative, but really the whole not telling you that he and S were back together is a bad sign and the chances of this guy deciding to go from an open relationship plus you on the side, to you-just-you seems slim. On the other hand, if you've got a good feeling about it, try it out, worst case, you're not that much worse off than the situation you're in which you don't like much.
c) "I can't keep this up, we either need to have some more serious arrangement or need to be just friends" Based on what you've said and my own take on this [I feel like I was in your position a few times in my early 20's] my guess is he'll choose the just friends route, and it may then be up to you to make sure the two of you don't sleep together any more.
It seems like even if you were in a relationship with Ben, he's not really a one-guy-one-gal sort of dude. It sort of sounds like that's what you'd like. If it were me, I'd try to channel the flirty sexual energy you get from being with Ben into a relationship with someone that really wanted to be with you-just-you, unless I'm misreading and the open relationship thing is okay with you.
posted by jessamyn at 4:06 AM on December 19, 2005
b) yes, my intuition says that you have little or no chance of pulling this off. I don't mean to be negative, but really the whole not telling you that he and S were back together is a bad sign and the chances of this guy deciding to go from an open relationship plus you on the side, to you-just-you seems slim. On the other hand, if you've got a good feeling about it, try it out, worst case, you're not that much worse off than the situation you're in which you don't like much.
c) "I can't keep this up, we either need to have some more serious arrangement or need to be just friends" Based on what you've said and my own take on this [I feel like I was in your position a few times in my early 20's] my guess is he'll choose the just friends route, and it may then be up to you to make sure the two of you don't sleep together any more.
It seems like even if you were in a relationship with Ben, he's not really a one-guy-one-gal sort of dude. It sort of sounds like that's what you'd like. If it were me, I'd try to channel the flirty sexual energy you get from being with Ben into a relationship with someone that really wanted to be with you-just-you, unless I'm misreading and the open relationship thing is okay with you.
posted by jessamyn at 4:06 AM on December 19, 2005
Response by poster: Quick Clarification: Ben is in an open relationship with Sarah. [Meaning they are both free to sleep with other people.]
Thanks very much for the responses so far.
posted by pollystark at 4:06 AM on December 19, 2005
Thanks very much for the responses so far.
posted by pollystark at 4:06 AM on December 19, 2005
I have to agree with antifuse, I think. In my first reading of this question, my brain omitted the "open" part of your relationship.
If he was interested in you, he probably would have approached you about the same concept. "Hey, do you wanna go out" or whatever it is kids are saying these days (says the twenty-something with a smirk). But he hasn't said anything like that.
It doesn't sound like he really wants to be with you - or anyone else. He pretty much has the "perfect" setup now. He has a girlfriend, but he can also do whatever with anyone else.
posted by damnjezebel at 4:18 AM on December 19, 2005
If he was interested in you, he probably would have approached you about the same concept. "Hey, do you wanna go out" or whatever it is kids are saying these days (says the twenty-something with a smirk). But he hasn't said anything like that.
It doesn't sound like he really wants to be with you - or anyone else. He pretty much has the "perfect" setup now. He has a girlfriend, but he can also do whatever with anyone else.
posted by damnjezebel at 4:18 AM on December 19, 2005
pollystark, forgive if I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like you already know deep down that Ben is not looking for a closed relationship with anyone, yet you're hoping that you can change that.
People don't change. Save yourself the heartbreak.
posted by chrismear at 5:00 AM on December 19, 2005
People don't change. Save yourself the heartbreak.
posted by chrismear at 5:00 AM on December 19, 2005
Questions from a sixty-year old: what's the difference (if any) between an open relationship and friends with benefits? And, whatever happened to love?
posted by Carol Anne at 5:43 AM on December 19, 2005
posted by Carol Anne at 5:43 AM on December 19, 2005
It's not a sixty-year old thing, Carol Anne- I'm in my twenties, and I also wonder what happened to love.
But to answer your question: "friends with benefits" are friends who will engage in sexual activity with no pretense of a romantic relationship. An "open relationship" (at least in this case) is where two people are in a romantic relationship, but are still free to see other people.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:46 AM on December 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
But to answer your question: "friends with benefits" are friends who will engage in sexual activity with no pretense of a romantic relationship. An "open relationship" (at least in this case) is where two people are in a romantic relationship, but are still free to see other people.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:46 AM on December 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
You're his #2. He doesn't want you to be his #1. If you ask him for that, you'll most likely lose the friendship. Sorry.
posted by matildaben at 6:30 AM on December 19, 2005
posted by matildaben at 6:30 AM on December 19, 2005
Questions from a sixty-year old: what's the difference (if any) between an open relationship and friends with benefits? And, whatever happened to love?
PinkSuperhero nails it. I've never done the whole polyamorous bit, but several friends have. If this situation has any resemblance to what I'm familiar with, then Ben and Sarah are in love, but not in commitment yet.
posted by Ryvar at 6:31 AM on December 19, 2005
PinkSuperhero nails it. I've never done the whole polyamorous bit, but several friends have. If this situation has any resemblance to what I'm familiar with, then Ben and Sarah are in love, but not in commitment yet.
posted by Ryvar at 6:31 AM on December 19, 2005
Do you want Ben to leave Sarah for you, or do you want to also be in an "open" relationship with Ben, who will also stay with Sarah?
Regardless of all this sex and friendship and open relationship stuff, here's the thing:
Never try to get a man to leave his girl for you. If it works, someday he will leave you for someone else. And whether it works or not, it's a desperate, vaguely icky thing to do. A good general rule is: if he's with someone else, he can't want to be with you all that bad.
Now, if you're into both Ben AND Sarah, (wink, wink), that might be worth a shot......
If not, I'd say just continue enjoying the sex. If that's possible for you in this situation. If that's not enough for you, stop having the sex.
posted by lampoil at 6:52 AM on December 19, 2005
Regardless of all this sex and friendship and open relationship stuff, here's the thing:
Never try to get a man to leave his girl for you. If it works, someday he will leave you for someone else. And whether it works or not, it's a desperate, vaguely icky thing to do. A good general rule is: if he's with someone else, he can't want to be with you all that bad.
Now, if you're into both Ben AND Sarah, (wink, wink), that might be worth a shot......
If not, I'd say just continue enjoying the sex. If that's possible for you in this situation. If that's not enough for you, stop having the sex.
posted by lampoil at 6:52 AM on December 19, 2005
You asked for out intuition, and here is mine: this will not go well.
You met someone who was involved with someone else and didn't tell you until you'd slept together. You even said yourself "I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships". I don't know you, but I think you deserve more than this.
If you want to remain friends with him, that boat sailed when you became involved. Even if you break it off, you will still have feelings everytime you see him and that will stand in the way of any healthy friendship.
The one thing you should do is break it off and be honest about it, because if you tell him how you feel then he only has two choices. He can break up with you or he can break up with Sarah. If he is really that into you, then you have a shot, but if he is happy with what he has then you will be free of a relationship that will only break your heart more and more. Seriously, get out and try to be as mature about it as possible. Maybe after some time has passed he might realize that you were a great catch and call you up again.
I can't think of how much time I've saved myself with this one question: "Do I deserve to be treated like this?" You don't deserve someone who can't give you what you need, which sounds like an exclusive relationship. If you can't get that the best thing that you can do for yourself is remove yourself from the situation.
posted by Alison at 6:56 AM on December 19, 2005
You met someone who was involved with someone else and didn't tell you until you'd slept together. You even said yourself "I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships". I don't know you, but I think you deserve more than this.
If you want to remain friends with him, that boat sailed when you became involved. Even if you break it off, you will still have feelings everytime you see him and that will stand in the way of any healthy friendship.
The one thing you should do is break it off and be honest about it, because if you tell him how you feel then he only has two choices. He can break up with you or he can break up with Sarah. If he is really that into you, then you have a shot, but if he is happy with what he has then you will be free of a relationship that will only break your heart more and more. Seriously, get out and try to be as mature about it as possible. Maybe after some time has passed he might realize that you were a great catch and call you up again.
I can't think of how much time I've saved myself with this one question: "Do I deserve to be treated like this?" You don't deserve someone who can't give you what you need, which sounds like an exclusive relationship. If you can't get that the best thing that you can do for yourself is remove yourself from the situation.
posted by Alison at 6:56 AM on December 19, 2005
And, whatever happened to love?
I don't think anything happened to it. Men and women are more likely to be close friend than ever before. Close friends love each other. Close friends who love each other and are sexual compatible often run into problems like the one pollystark describes.
In that situation I think, unfortunately, matildaben is right.
posted by ninebelow at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2005
I don't think anything happened to it. Men and women are more likely to be close friend than ever before. Close friends love each other. Close friends who love each other and are sexual compatible often run into problems like the one pollystark describes.
In that situation I think, unfortunately, matildaben is right.
posted by ninebelow at 7:11 AM on December 19, 2005
Ben is an honest, reliable...
I'll guess you're misreading him.
posted by scheptech at 7:15 AM on December 19, 2005
I'll guess you're misreading him.
posted by scheptech at 7:15 AM on December 19, 2005
The one time I was involved in an open relationship, I was a #2, which I was fine with... but the guy started having stronger feelings for me, which really messed with his primary relationship (I don't know if the couple are still together, but we are no longer in touch). The way he put it, there were two main rules not to be broken in an open relationship - don't have unsafe sex, and don't start falling in love. I'm sure different couples have different rules, but for an open relationship to have stability, the expectation is that neither partner will leave for one of their #2s.
If Ben & Sarah are not that serious, or if you would be happy having the three of you as a stable triple (not nec that you & sarah would have to have any sexual interest in each other; I knew a woman with two primary male partners; they all lived together but the men were just close friends), then you might find it worth approaching, if only to stave off future "what if" thoughts.
But what you describe doesn't sound that hopeful - flirtatious behavior doesn't immediately translate into an interest in a serious relationship - I even find that when something really has a chance, there's more tension, excitement, complication... If you feel as if there's an unspoken desire that goes deeper, or something, that's one thing; if you feel like he really has fun playing with you, that's another.
posted by mdn at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2005
If Ben & Sarah are not that serious, or if you would be happy having the three of you as a stable triple (not nec that you & sarah would have to have any sexual interest in each other; I knew a woman with two primary male partners; they all lived together but the men were just close friends), then you might find it worth approaching, if only to stave off future "what if" thoughts.
But what you describe doesn't sound that hopeful - flirtatious behavior doesn't immediately translate into an interest in a serious relationship - I even find that when something really has a chance, there's more tension, excitement, complication... If you feel as if there's an unspoken desire that goes deeper, or something, that's one thing; if you feel like he really has fun playing with you, that's another.
posted by mdn at 7:20 AM on December 19, 2005
Sorry to say this but I'd have to say that Ben is not going to be up for a relationship (maybe I'll be proved wrong, in which case, congrats!)
You say that when you first met you went on a few dates but they didn't go anywhere? Seems to me you are second choice to Sarah, always have been and likely alwas will be. If you let him know what you think it'll probably cause him just to end it and find another fuck buddy.
Wish I could be more positive about this, but you are already looking at this fella with rose tinted glasses:
Ben is an honest, reliable, kind-hearted, fun friend, but I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships.
You say he is honest but he slept with you before telling you about getting back with Sarah.
Unless you want to continue an open relationship with this bloke I'd just give up and find your own man.
posted by twistedonion at 7:24 AM on December 19, 2005
You say that when you first met you went on a few dates but they didn't go anywhere? Seems to me you are second choice to Sarah, always have been and likely alwas will be. If you let him know what you think it'll probably cause him just to end it and find another fuck buddy.
Wish I could be more positive about this, but you are already looking at this fella with rose tinted glasses:
Ben is an honest, reliable, kind-hearted, fun friend, but I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships.
You say he is honest but he slept with you before telling you about getting back with Sarah.
Unless you want to continue an open relationship with this bloke I'd just give up and find your own man.
posted by twistedonion at 7:24 AM on December 19, 2005
It seems this is all your fault. Ben was in an open relationship with Sarah. He was under no obligation to tell you about her until you guys became intimate. When that happened he told you the truth and you're the one who made the informed decision to continue along that path.
Ben and I are really quite close friends. We spend a fair amount of time together, talk about everything...
Well, this isn't true. You've been lying to Ben for some time. By keeping him under the illusion that he's just a friend and not letting him know that you've fallen in love with him, you've very much misled him. This is the problem. Ben, as a close friend should be, has been totally honest with you and you have not been totally honest with him.
I say this only because you should try to understand how Ben may see your confession. To him, you will be coming totally out of the blue with this. Worse, he'll be a little bit suspicious about what else you might be holding back from him.
Lesson (hopefully) learned: don't lie to your friends.
At this point it should be clear that your deception isn't paying off. Your best bet is to apologize to him for not telling him how you feel and then tell him everything. Consider practicing your sphiel before hand as this can help you figure out exactly what you want to say. Write it down if you have to. Once you do tell him you shouldn't put him under any pressure to respond right away. He may need some time to think things over and you'll have to give it to him. Give him plenty of space and time. Don't ask him to declare his love for you on the spot.
As Allison points out, it's likely this won't go well at all. Unless Ben reciprocates your feelings you'll have to "break up" with him. You won't be able to go on being close friends with him with this sort of thwarted desire between you. You'll have to put him out of your life, for a little while at least, if only to keep you both sane.
posted by nixerman at 7:28 AM on December 19, 2005
Ben and I are really quite close friends. We spend a fair amount of time together, talk about everything...
Well, this isn't true. You've been lying to Ben for some time. By keeping him under the illusion that he's just a friend and not letting him know that you've fallen in love with him, you've very much misled him. This is the problem. Ben, as a close friend should be, has been totally honest with you and you have not been totally honest with him.
I say this only because you should try to understand how Ben may see your confession. To him, you will be coming totally out of the blue with this. Worse, he'll be a little bit suspicious about what else you might be holding back from him.
Lesson (hopefully) learned: don't lie to your friends.
At this point it should be clear that your deception isn't paying off. Your best bet is to apologize to him for not telling him how you feel and then tell him everything. Consider practicing your sphiel before hand as this can help you figure out exactly what you want to say. Write it down if you have to. Once you do tell him you shouldn't put him under any pressure to respond right away. He may need some time to think things over and you'll have to give it to him. Give him plenty of space and time. Don't ask him to declare his love for you on the spot.
As Allison points out, it's likely this won't go well at all. Unless Ben reciprocates your feelings you'll have to "break up" with him. You won't be able to go on being close friends with him with this sort of thwarted desire between you. You'll have to put him out of your life, for a little while at least, if only to keep you both sane.
posted by nixerman at 7:28 AM on December 19, 2005
It seems this is all your fault. Ben was in an open relationship with Sarah. He was under no obligation to tell you about her until you guys became intimate.
Wow, nixerman, I think you're being a bit harsh there. I fail to see how being in an open relationship lessens one's need to be honest with people outside the relationship.
Pollystark, I'm sorry to say that I think you're better off cutting your losses and finding someone who's emotionally available to you.
posted by different at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2005
Wow, nixerman, I think you're being a bit harsh there. I fail to see how being in an open relationship lessens one's need to be honest with people outside the relationship.
Pollystark, I'm sorry to say that I think you're better off cutting your losses and finding someone who's emotionally available to you.
posted by different at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2005
Does *Sarah* know that she and Ben are in an open relationship?
posted by notsnot at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2005
posted by notsnot at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2005
thought I recognised your name polly. On preview of your last question on askmefi
I'd say nixerman has it - it's your fault, get over it and move along to your next tortured relationship. Sorry if that seems harsh but as a monogomous bloke I can't really relate to flings and the like.
You seem to like fucking around though so why stop now? What is so special about this Ben fella? Do you just enjoy fucking friends? (or just fucking with them - how did it go with the girl your mate had the hots for?)
Or do you just chase the drama? Because that's the opinion I'm starting to get.
posted by twistedonion at 7:46 AM on December 19, 2005
I'd say nixerman has it - it's your fault, get over it and move along to your next tortured relationship. Sorry if that seems harsh but as a monogomous bloke I can't really relate to flings and the like.
You seem to like fucking around though so why stop now? What is so special about this Ben fella? Do you just enjoy fucking friends? (or just fucking with them - how did it go with the girl your mate had the hots for?)
Or do you just chase the drama? Because that's the opinion I'm starting to get.
posted by twistedonion at 7:46 AM on December 19, 2005
The few times that I've tried to turn friendships into relationships, I've felt the same thing you say: The guys are great as friends, but seem to be rather shitty in relationships. I have no idea why I thought things would be different with me -- and they weren't.
And it's doubly frustrating to be dating a guy you *know* can be great, but isn't acting all that great. For me, at least, the insecurity that dynamic created was ten times worse than suffering through the unrequited feelings in the first place.
Be good to yourself. Don't settle for just sleeping with someone you have deeper feelings for, and don't settle for a boyfriend who's shitty in relationships. See if you can downshift this back into the roles you're both good at, and like each other in: Just friends.
posted by occhiblu at 9:03 AM on December 19, 2005
And it's doubly frustrating to be dating a guy you *know* can be great, but isn't acting all that great. For me, at least, the insecurity that dynamic created was ten times worse than suffering through the unrequited feelings in the first place.
Be good to yourself. Don't settle for just sleeping with someone you have deeper feelings for, and don't settle for a boyfriend who's shitty in relationships. See if you can downshift this back into the roles you're both good at, and like each other in: Just friends.
posted by occhiblu at 9:03 AM on December 19, 2005
a) what are my chances of losing a friend?
Unfortunately for you, this ball has landed in his court; your chances of losing a friend are directly related to his emotional maturity in regards to these matters. If this guy has problems with intimacy (and it sounds like he does) he's probably going to bail on you. If this does happen, don't blame yourself, sometimes these things work, sometimes they don't.
b) have you any intuition on my chances of a positive response from him?
You said that he can be a shit in regards to relationships - don't expect that to change just because you arrived on the scene.
c) how should I broach the subject?
With courage, and with the ability to accept the outcome, no matter what.
Of course, if you want to continue sleeping with this guy, don't risk it by making an ultimatum. You are just going to have to accept the limitations of this arrangement, and keep your thoughts to yourself. And that sounds like a big hassle to me.
posted by lilboo at 9:20 AM on December 19, 2005
Unfortunately for you, this ball has landed in his court; your chances of losing a friend are directly related to his emotional maturity in regards to these matters. If this guy has problems with intimacy (and it sounds like he does) he's probably going to bail on you. If this does happen, don't blame yourself, sometimes these things work, sometimes they don't.
b) have you any intuition on my chances of a positive response from him?
You said that he can be a shit in regards to relationships - don't expect that to change just because you arrived on the scene.
c) how should I broach the subject?
With courage, and with the ability to accept the outcome, no matter what.
Of course, if you want to continue sleeping with this guy, don't risk it by making an ultimatum. You are just going to have to accept the limitations of this arrangement, and keep your thoughts to yourself. And that sounds like a big hassle to me.
posted by lilboo at 9:20 AM on December 19, 2005
a) if your friendship is based on the flirting and the chance of sleeping with each other again, chances of losing it are good if you stand firm on this.
b) talking someone who just broke up with a girlfriend and is "non-monogamous" into being his girlfriend - poor odds. Especially if you were on the side and have been very accommodating in the past about being friends with benefits.
c) just tell him you need to be his girlfriend or stop the sexual side to your relationship. Then stick to your guns and accept whatever happens. Do not compromise on this, even (especially) if you really like him. You probably want different things. Giving in to what he wants is not the way to convince him. If that's possible, which my hunch is it's not. And it will make you miserable if it is something that's "hard for you," as you said.
Unsolicited commentary: this guy sounds like a shit generally. It's easy to be "nice" and "honest" with someone you're seeing on the side. This does not mean he would be a good boyfriend or that he is actually honest or nice. It could be that he gets off on this "honest, nice" idea of himself and enjoys the benefits of gullible women who support it by going along with his behavior when they don't want to. He may not even be consciously aware of it, since his behavior seems to be "okay" with you if you keep agreeing to it.
Surround yourself with people who like you, have similar needs and compromise to fit your (mutual) needs even without the possibility of sex. It may be fun for them and flattering for you, but it won't lead to a really stable and enduring relationship (friendship or romantic), if that's what you're looking for. Otherwise, accept the fact that you're just fucking around and don't expect a boyfriend out of it. You might want to consider therapy to learn how to really stand up for yourself. You don't need to tolerate unacceptable things in relationships. And people don't have to be sexually interested in you to have a friendship with you.
You can and should be up front about your needs and expectations and not date people who consistently don't meet them. Otherwise you're wasting your time. Will he not be friends with you anymore if you stand up for what you want? The fact that you're worried about this and hesitant to approach him about something that's important to you is pretty telling. How honest and nice is he if he won't be friends with you when you stop sleeping with him? Makes it sound like your relationship is a flattering convenience. Don't be convenient. Unless you want to keep things the way they are. And prepare to not get what you want and walk away from this.
posted by Marnie at 10:28 AM on December 19, 2005
b) talking someone who just broke up with a girlfriend and is "non-monogamous" into being his girlfriend - poor odds. Especially if you were on the side and have been very accommodating in the past about being friends with benefits.
c) just tell him you need to be his girlfriend or stop the sexual side to your relationship. Then stick to your guns and accept whatever happens. Do not compromise on this, even (especially) if you really like him. You probably want different things. Giving in to what he wants is not the way to convince him. If that's possible, which my hunch is it's not. And it will make you miserable if it is something that's "hard for you," as you said.
Unsolicited commentary: this guy sounds like a shit generally. It's easy to be "nice" and "honest" with someone you're seeing on the side. This does not mean he would be a good boyfriend or that he is actually honest or nice. It could be that he gets off on this "honest, nice" idea of himself and enjoys the benefits of gullible women who support it by going along with his behavior when they don't want to. He may not even be consciously aware of it, since his behavior seems to be "okay" with you if you keep agreeing to it.
Surround yourself with people who like you, have similar needs and compromise to fit your (mutual) needs even without the possibility of sex. It may be fun for them and flattering for you, but it won't lead to a really stable and enduring relationship (friendship or romantic), if that's what you're looking for. Otherwise, accept the fact that you're just fucking around and don't expect a boyfriend out of it. You might want to consider therapy to learn how to really stand up for yourself. You don't need to tolerate unacceptable things in relationships. And people don't have to be sexually interested in you to have a friendship with you.
You can and should be up front about your needs and expectations and not date people who consistently don't meet them. Otherwise you're wasting your time. Will he not be friends with you anymore if you stand up for what you want? The fact that you're worried about this and hesitant to approach him about something that's important to you is pretty telling. How honest and nice is he if he won't be friends with you when you stop sleeping with him? Makes it sound like your relationship is a flattering convenience. Don't be convenient. Unless you want to keep things the way they are. And prepare to not get what you want and walk away from this.
posted by Marnie at 10:28 AM on December 19, 2005
but yeah, beyond that, do whatever you want, but this guy obviously isn't interested in a monogamous relationship with anyone at the moment.
posted by delmoi at 11:33 AM on December 19, 2005
posted by delmoi at 11:33 AM on December 19, 2005
He's a cheating scuzz. He'll still be a cheating scuzz if he breaks up with his girlfriend to be with you. Then, when he cheats on you, he'll be a cheating skuzz.
posted by lrivers at 11:42 AM on December 19, 2005
posted by lrivers at 11:42 AM on December 19, 2005
I fail to see how being in an open relationship lessens one's need to be honest with people outside the relationship.
different, when you're in an open relationship you don't go around broadcasting it to the world. People make stupid judgements about you (see above). It's a bit strange that he didn't tell her about his girlfriend right away, but I can imagine plenty of reasons why the topic might come up or even purposefully avoided by both of them. He told her when they became intimate--this is exactly the right thing to do.
posted by nixerman at 11:46 AM on December 19, 2005
different, when you're in an open relationship you don't go around broadcasting it to the world. People make stupid judgements about you (see above). It's a bit strange that he didn't tell her about his girlfriend right away, but I can imagine plenty of reasons why the topic might come up or even purposefully avoided by both of them. He told her when they became intimate--this is exactly the right thing to do.
posted by nixerman at 11:46 AM on December 19, 2005
He told her when they became intimate--this is exactly the right thing to do.
I disagree. It's clear the guy in this example is pretty scuzzy, so I imagine he hid the girlfriend thing from her until the last moment on purpose- because he knew that if she knew, things might not progress quite how he likes. Seems pretty jerky to me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:56 AM on December 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
I disagree. It's clear the guy in this example is pretty scuzzy, so I imagine he hid the girlfriend thing from her until the last moment on purpose- because he knew that if she knew, things might not progress quite how he likes. Seems pretty jerky to me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:56 AM on December 19, 2005 [1 favorite]
Ben is an honest, reliable, kind-hearted, fun friend, but I know that he can be a bit of a shit when it comes to relationships.
Truly honest, reliable, kind-hearted, and fun friends do not turn into shits when they get into a relationship with you. If they turn into shits in relationships, they are NOT as honest, reliable, kind-hearted, and fun as you think. Period.
Trust me. I learned this lesson the hard way... and it took several times for the lesson to stick. Find a man who treats his friends and his partners with the same measures of kindness, warmth, loyalty, and consideration. It might take some time and some looking, but such guys really, truly do exist.
posted by scody at 11:58 AM on December 19, 2005
Truly honest, reliable, kind-hearted, and fun friends do not turn into shits when they get into a relationship with you. If they turn into shits in relationships, they are NOT as honest, reliable, kind-hearted, and fun as you think. Period.
Trust me. I learned this lesson the hard way... and it took several times for the lesson to stick. Find a man who treats his friends and his partners with the same measures of kindness, warmth, loyalty, and consideration. It might take some time and some looking, but such guys really, truly do exist.
posted by scody at 11:58 AM on December 19, 2005
nixerman, I think you are being way too harsh and not taking into account the complexity of the situation. When you say:
Worse, he'll be a little bit suspicious about what else you might be holding back from him.
I think you are misreading it and being very unhelpful. This talk of lies and deception is unfair.
That said, I agree that not seeing him is the way forward.
posted by ninebelow at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2005
Worse, he'll be a little bit suspicious about what else you might be holding back from him.
I think you are misreading it and being very unhelpful. This talk of lies and deception is unfair.
That said, I agree that not seeing him is the way forward.
posted by ninebelow at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2005
I guess it's normal to bring one's past experiences into this question. Lots of 'cheating scuzzbag' being thrown around. Since I find myself in a similar situation as Ben right now I have a little more slack for the guy.
My first question would be: Did he tell you he was back together with Sarah before or after you slept with him? In my mind waiting until the afterglow to make that confession would tilt my opinion of him into 'Scuzzy'.
Regardless, it sounds like he still has a crush on Sarah and not so much on you, though I don't doubt that he values your friendship and your affection.
I would do as some others have said and break it off with Ben and explain your feelings. From there you can figure out what he really values. Just don't rush it.
posted by anthill at 5:47 PM on December 19, 2005
My first question would be: Did he tell you he was back together with Sarah before or after you slept with him? In my mind waiting until the afterglow to make that confession would tilt my opinion of him into 'Scuzzy'.
Regardless, it sounds like he still has a crush on Sarah and not so much on you, though I don't doubt that he values your friendship and your affection.
I would do as some others have said and break it off with Ben and explain your feelings. From there you can figure out what he really values. Just don't rush it.
posted by anthill at 5:47 PM on December 19, 2005
Response by poster: First of all, thanks so much for all your comments and advice - I really appreciate it.
* Just to re-iterate: open relationships mean both parties are allowed to sleep with whomever they choose.
* Ben really is a good friend. For the last six months or so, we haven't been sleeping together, and we've grown pretty close in that time.
* My sexual identity. This doesn't have anything to do with anything. One can be uncertain about one's sexuality but certain about one's attraction to a specific person. This is the case here.
* Yes, Ben did tell me that he was with Sarah during post-sex pillow talk. This is a bit scuzzy.
* The flirty undercurrent. This is a result of our mutual, acknowledged attraction, and there's not a lot either of us can do about it. Staying friends almost certainly means it will remain a component of our friendship, though by no means the key one.
* Clearly, the 'friends with benefits' thing is ideal for Ben. He can choose when we have sex, as obviously I am always going to accept. This means he has the power, which is an intoxicating position. From the issues that have been raised by the discussion, I - worryingly - think that I might rather keep him as a friend with benefits than cut all contact. On a side note, Ben is not such a shit that he'll stop being friends with me if I cut off the 'benefits'.
* My 'dishonesty'. I really don't buy this at all. Me with-holding from Ben the fact that I want a relationship is not morally wrong. That fact is my business and not necessarily his. However, me blaming him for sleeping with me 'as friends', when I want a relationship, *would* be wrong.
* I'm not into Sarah :)
* The Drama. [In reply to twistedonion.] I don't crave drama, but I'm willing to hold out for people whom I'm super keen on, rather than settle. This increases the chances of fraught romantic entanglements, because I don't go for easy options.
* [In reply to Marnie.] Clearly, I am allowing a situation that I don't like to continue because I'm in romantic thrall to Ben. In general, I'm pretty good at standing up for myself, but I daresay a lot of people have let a demeaning situation continue because of a strong attraction.
* I really don't want to lose Ben's friendship, and it sounds like the consensus is that I will (or at the least it will become awkward) if I either offer an ultimatum (I wouldn't do that) or (more likely) I told him about my feelings. Therefore The Plan that seems best is trying to resist him and thus stop the sex, and hope I fall for someone else.
posted by pollystark at 2:17 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
* Just to re-iterate: open relationships mean both parties are allowed to sleep with whomever they choose.
* Ben really is a good friend. For the last six months or so, we haven't been sleeping together, and we've grown pretty close in that time.
* My sexual identity. This doesn't have anything to do with anything. One can be uncertain about one's sexuality but certain about one's attraction to a specific person. This is the case here.
* Yes, Ben did tell me that he was with Sarah during post-sex pillow talk. This is a bit scuzzy.
* The flirty undercurrent. This is a result of our mutual, acknowledged attraction, and there's not a lot either of us can do about it. Staying friends almost certainly means it will remain a component of our friendship, though by no means the key one.
* Clearly, the 'friends with benefits' thing is ideal for Ben. He can choose when we have sex, as obviously I am always going to accept. This means he has the power, which is an intoxicating position. From the issues that have been raised by the discussion, I - worryingly - think that I might rather keep him as a friend with benefits than cut all contact. On a side note, Ben is not such a shit that he'll stop being friends with me if I cut off the 'benefits'.
* My 'dishonesty'. I really don't buy this at all. Me with-holding from Ben the fact that I want a relationship is not morally wrong. That fact is my business and not necessarily his. However, me blaming him for sleeping with me 'as friends', when I want a relationship, *would* be wrong.
* I'm not into Sarah :)
* The Drama. [In reply to twistedonion.] I don't crave drama, but I'm willing to hold out for people whom I'm super keen on, rather than settle. This increases the chances of fraught romantic entanglements, because I don't go for easy options.
* [In reply to Marnie.] Clearly, I am allowing a situation that I don't like to continue because I'm in romantic thrall to Ben. In general, I'm pretty good at standing up for myself, but I daresay a lot of people have let a demeaning situation continue because of a strong attraction.
* I really don't want to lose Ben's friendship, and it sounds like the consensus is that I will (or at the least it will become awkward) if I either offer an ultimatum (I wouldn't do that) or (more likely) I told him about my feelings. Therefore The Plan that seems best is trying to resist him and thus stop the sex, and hope I fall for someone else.
posted by pollystark at 2:17 AM on December 20, 2005 [1 favorite]
Therefore The Plan that seems best is trying to resist him and thus stop the sex, and hope I fall for someone else.
Good on you and best of luck - letting go of people can be rough but sometimes it really is the least painful of the available options.
posted by Ryvar at 1:25 PM on December 21, 2005
Good on you and best of luck - letting go of people can be rough but sometimes it really is the least painful of the available options.
posted by Ryvar at 1:25 PM on December 21, 2005
Therefore The Plan that seems best is trying to resist him and thus stop the sex, and hope I fall for someone else.
While this is very dramatic, chances are pretty good that you will fall for someone else. That whole "I'll never love anyone again" thing is strictly for the movies.
posted by antifuse at 6:45 AM on December 22, 2005
While this is very dramatic, chances are pretty good that you will fall for someone else. That whole "I'll never love anyone again" thing is strictly for the movies.
posted by antifuse at 6:45 AM on December 22, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
Now, you didn't ask about that, so... I wouldn't think you'd lose him as a friend regardless - unless you told him that you want him completely or not at all. If you must tell him, just tell him. Say you want it to be more and see if you agrees. Sounds like from the looks of it, he wants you as a friend and for sometimes sex, while he has Sarah for his emotional commitment (to the degree that he does commit.
I would move on and get yourself a healthier sex life and relationship, but that's me.
posted by qwip at 3:43 AM on December 19, 2005