Dog is hard to train, doesn't react as expected, please help!
January 23, 2016 1:10 PM Subscribe
My dog is a mutt (possibly some Aussie shephard and border collie in there, very high energy, working dogesque) my fiancé and I adopted at 2 months old. He is now 2 and a half. Training him has always been a bit difficult, because he doesn't react the way trainers say dogs "should."
For example, when I was first leash training him and he would pull too much, trainers say to wait, the dog will wonder why you're not coming, and will eventually come back to you, when you reward him. This never worked. He would pull, I would stop, he would continue straining at the leash as though I didn't exist for 5 full minutes before I would give up and just drag him along. He doesn't care about even the highest-value treats when he gets really excited.
His biggest problem, however, is barking. We live in an apartment building, and he barks whenever someone comes to the door or walks by. When I'm home, I make him go to bed (he was crate trained, but now just goes to our bedroom) and give him a high-value treat when he stops barking. This is very difficult, as he barely pauses barking for even a moment for me to give him the treat, and after he eats the treat, starts barking again. After a couple of cycles, he is no longer interested in any treats and just barks, ignoring any treat (I've tried chicken, hot dogs, real salmon, seriously).
To train him out of separation anxiety, most manuals and trainers say to leave for a short amount of time, wait for him to stop barking, and then reward. But I have left for as little as FIVE SECONDS and he begins to bark. I have to rush in when I hear so much as a one second pause, and sometimes he DOESN'T stop at all.
If I try to gradually increase the time after a success, he starts to bark as SOON as I move toward the door, and barks for longer and longer periods without a pause. He knows what's going on, and it doesn't seem to matter that I'm returning every time and giving him a treat. He gets more and more anxious until he just barks continuously.
What do I do? I'm doing what trainers say. He's had training classes at PetSmart and learns tricks pretty easily. I take him for walks and he goes to dog daycare regularly during the week. Please help if you have a highly-strung dog like mine.
For example, when I was first leash training him and he would pull too much, trainers say to wait, the dog will wonder why you're not coming, and will eventually come back to you, when you reward him. This never worked. He would pull, I would stop, he would continue straining at the leash as though I didn't exist for 5 full minutes before I would give up and just drag him along. He doesn't care about even the highest-value treats when he gets really excited.
His biggest problem, however, is barking. We live in an apartment building, and he barks whenever someone comes to the door or walks by. When I'm home, I make him go to bed (he was crate trained, but now just goes to our bedroom) and give him a high-value treat when he stops barking. This is very difficult, as he barely pauses barking for even a moment for me to give him the treat, and after he eats the treat, starts barking again. After a couple of cycles, he is no longer interested in any treats and just barks, ignoring any treat (I've tried chicken, hot dogs, real salmon, seriously).
To train him out of separation anxiety, most manuals and trainers say to leave for a short amount of time, wait for him to stop barking, and then reward. But I have left for as little as FIVE SECONDS and he begins to bark. I have to rush in when I hear so much as a one second pause, and sometimes he DOESN'T stop at all.
If I try to gradually increase the time after a success, he starts to bark as SOON as I move toward the door, and barks for longer and longer periods without a pause. He knows what's going on, and it doesn't seem to matter that I'm returning every time and giving him a treat. He gets more and more anxious until he just barks continuously.
What do I do? I'm doing what trainers say. He's had training classes at PetSmart and learns tricks pretty easily. I take him for walks and he goes to dog daycare regularly during the week. Please help if you have a highly-strung dog like mine.
Our Great Pyr is half Aussie shepherd. (Great Pyr rescue group said she was half lab... I will hold a grudge against them forever.) These working dogs were not bred for obedience. They were bred for independent thought and action. So I have the some of same kind of issues with Tilly as you have with your pet. I am interested in what the AskMe dognoscenti have to say, because I am at the point (after eighteen months of fruitless training) of buying a shock collar. And a pinch collar. Maybe a cattle prod?
Aussie shepherds are, in my opinion, not a good match for cities. They get depressed because they live in circumstances that are 180 out from the lives for which they were bred. This is especially true of apartment buildings. This leads to behaviors that are unacceptable. It is worse for them when they are smart, and you obviously have a smart dog.
On preview - I deleted a lot because hurdy gurdy girl said it better, and with, like, 3% of the bile I employed.
posted by BrunoLatourFanclub at 1:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Aussie shepherds are, in my opinion, not a good match for cities. They get depressed because they live in circumstances that are 180 out from the lives for which they were bred. This is especially true of apartment buildings. This leads to behaviors that are unacceptable. It is worse for them when they are smart, and you obviously have a smart dog.
On preview - I deleted a lot because hurdy gurdy girl said it better, and with, like, 3% of the bile I employed.
posted by BrunoLatourFanclub at 1:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Aussies also have guard dog tendencies (aka barking when someone is at the door, or otherwise in their territory) that you're not going to really be able to train out of them.
I had an older Aussie in an apartment, so I feel your pain. When I walked him down three stories to go out to potty (since a barksplosion in the elevator with neighbors was very likely), I had luck keeping a piece of pepperoni right in front of his face for the whole walk. He had been trained to not snatch treats but to take them gently, so he was only licking my hand to get the pepperoni, and it kept him from being anxious. I'm sure if a neighbor's door opened right in front of him, he'd start barking, but at least he wasn't "tall dog-ing" down the hall.
They aren't great apartment dogs. They are gorgeous but loud :) Honestly, if he knows to go to the bedroom, just shut the door on him until you get the FedEx package or whatever.
posted by Drosera at 2:08 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had an older Aussie in an apartment, so I feel your pain. When I walked him down three stories to go out to potty (since a barksplosion in the elevator with neighbors was very likely), I had luck keeping a piece of pepperoni right in front of his face for the whole walk. He had been trained to not snatch treats but to take them gently, so he was only licking my hand to get the pepperoni, and it kept him from being anxious. I'm sure if a neighbor's door opened right in front of him, he'd start barking, but at least he wasn't "tall dog-ing" down the hall.
They aren't great apartment dogs. They are gorgeous but loud :) Honestly, if he knows to go to the bedroom, just shut the door on him until you get the FedEx package or whatever.
posted by Drosera at 2:08 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The "trick" with training dogs to stop barking is actually training them to bark on cue then rewarding them for barking to your cue as counter intuitive as it sounds.
I'd really suggest going to some sort of agility classes or something too, a tired dog is a quiet & less anxious dog. Agility classes will burn off some of that mental energy as well as physical and help the 2 of you get the hang of listening to each other. I would also highly suggest looking into clicker training, I have 2 super smart terriers, the best way I've found to train them is to be able to mark the behavior I want the second it happens with a clicker so they know exactly what you want from them, instead of what they think you want, it also helps with the doesn't want a high value treat problem. There are a lot of good videos on YouTube explaining the basics & they aren't that hard to pick up.
Your problem isn't' that your dog isn't learning, but as hg girl said above, he's not learning what you think you are teaching, but what your actions are teaching. Welcome to the wonderful world of dogs that are too clever by half. You need to be clear, consistent & patient as a rock, you need to stand in the middle of that footpath not moving for as long as it takes, your dog will most likely try numerous options to get you to do things his way. The second he does things your way you praise, verbal praise is often enough if he's not treat motivated. I have even been known with my highly reactive Rat Terrier that used to pull like crazy the second he thought he saw a small animal to turn around and walk away from what he is pulling to get to until he walks nicely, so he learns that pulling gets you the opposite of what you want.
If you want your dog quiet when you start the training, give them a delicious distracting dog treat like a frozen PB kong or something, so it stays quiet & you can reinforce that.
If it makes you feel better, until I realized I was living with a "smart" dog I accidentally trained him to pee in the closet, but loosing my temper once (one friggen time at the end of a shitty shitty day) when he peed on the rug, I then had to retoilet train him as he wouldn't pee in front of me even outside. My husband trained him to smack him in the face at night if he wants to go out and as for seperation anxiety, my dog can tell the difference between me putting on BB cream & putting on makeup. If I put on makeup he knows I'm going out, the best solution I've found is to create a coming & going routine & stick to it like clockwork. Last thing out the door he gets a super delicious hard to eat treat. Now a days instead of stress, he looks forward to the yummy treat he only gets when I leave the house, but it takes time.
My main advice is pick your fights and remember sometimes it's easier to remove the problems. ie if barking at noise outside, leaving the TV can drown it out. Lots of walks so they are too tired to be anxious.
posted by wwax at 2:14 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd really suggest going to some sort of agility classes or something too, a tired dog is a quiet & less anxious dog. Agility classes will burn off some of that mental energy as well as physical and help the 2 of you get the hang of listening to each other. I would also highly suggest looking into clicker training, I have 2 super smart terriers, the best way I've found to train them is to be able to mark the behavior I want the second it happens with a clicker so they know exactly what you want from them, instead of what they think you want, it also helps with the doesn't want a high value treat problem. There are a lot of good videos on YouTube explaining the basics & they aren't that hard to pick up.
Your problem isn't' that your dog isn't learning, but as hg girl said above, he's not learning what you think you are teaching, but what your actions are teaching. Welcome to the wonderful world of dogs that are too clever by half. You need to be clear, consistent & patient as a rock, you need to stand in the middle of that footpath not moving for as long as it takes, your dog will most likely try numerous options to get you to do things his way. The second he does things your way you praise, verbal praise is often enough if he's not treat motivated. I have even been known with my highly reactive Rat Terrier that used to pull like crazy the second he thought he saw a small animal to turn around and walk away from what he is pulling to get to until he walks nicely, so he learns that pulling gets you the opposite of what you want.
If you want your dog quiet when you start the training, give them a delicious distracting dog treat like a frozen PB kong or something, so it stays quiet & you can reinforce that.
If it makes you feel better, until I realized I was living with a "smart" dog I accidentally trained him to pee in the closet, but loosing my temper once (one friggen time at the end of a shitty shitty day) when he peed on the rug, I then had to retoilet train him as he wouldn't pee in front of me even outside. My husband trained him to smack him in the face at night if he wants to go out and as for seperation anxiety, my dog can tell the difference between me putting on BB cream & putting on makeup. If I put on makeup he knows I'm going out, the best solution I've found is to create a coming & going routine & stick to it like clockwork. Last thing out the door he gets a super delicious hard to eat treat. Now a days instead of stress, he looks forward to the yummy treat he only gets when I leave the house, but it takes time.
My main advice is pick your fights and remember sometimes it's easier to remove the problems. ie if barking at noise outside, leaving the TV can drown it out. Lots of walks so they are too tired to be anxious.
posted by wwax at 2:14 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
A spray of Bitter Apple with a firm 'Quiet' worked with our dog. Consistency is important, no matter how frustrating.
posted by tayknight at 2:15 PM on January 23, 2016
posted by tayknight at 2:15 PM on January 23, 2016
Best answer: First of all, please don't allow yourself to be guilt-tripped for having this dog in an apartment. It is possible to have a super happy Aussie/BC (or other high-intelligence, high-energy dog) in the city, even in an apartment - it just takes a huge amount of time and energy. I know how hard it can be to deal with dog behavioral issues, and I also know that being chided (however gently) doesn't make that any easier.
Here are two things I would start doing right away:
1) Increasing his exercise and his mental stimulation, even if you think he is actually getting enough. That might mean longer stretches of exercise and/or higher intensity exercise. It might mean signing him up for local agility classes. For mental stimulation, puzzle toys are great for smart dogs like yours. Basically, you want this pup to get all of his energy out of his system in a controlled environment.
2) Figure out what motivates him - it doesn't seem like food will do the trick. My parents have two BC mixes with very different motivations. One is motivated by food and tennis balls; the other by praise and affection. Figure out what makes your dog tick and start using that as a reward in addition to treats.
Regarding the barking:
3) My dog had tendencies to bark at strange noises when I first brought him home (though they were admittedly less strong than your dog's). I fixed that by giving him a treat whenever we heard a noise in the hallway, as soon as it happened. Basically, I didn't give him a chance to bark. When he would bark, I would ignore him until at least a minute after the barking had ceased.
Regarding your work on his separation anxiety:
4) When you come home, ignore him at first. This is really hard, especially when your dog is barking or otherwise desperately trying to tell you how over-the-moon he is to see you, but it makes a big, big difference. If you are excited when you get home, if you treat him as soon as you get home, you are basically teaching him: Family leaves + I get anxious = Family returns, with lovies and treats! When I was going through this with my dog I set a timer on my phone and would ignore him for 8 minutes upon returning to the apartment. It was hard but it did help a lot.
Finally, I would:
5) Ask your vet if medication might be an option. Some dogs need their anxieties to be managed with medicine. IMO it's best to use as a last resort, but it sounds like your dog's separation anxiety is quite severe. I know of many successful cases where Xanax or similar is used for a few weeks to manage anxiety, and then the dog is weaned off of it. Obviously YMMV.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:20 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here are two things I would start doing right away:
1) Increasing his exercise and his mental stimulation, even if you think he is actually getting enough. That might mean longer stretches of exercise and/or higher intensity exercise. It might mean signing him up for local agility classes. For mental stimulation, puzzle toys are great for smart dogs like yours. Basically, you want this pup to get all of his energy out of his system in a controlled environment.
2) Figure out what motivates him - it doesn't seem like food will do the trick. My parents have two BC mixes with very different motivations. One is motivated by food and tennis balls; the other by praise and affection. Figure out what makes your dog tick and start using that as a reward in addition to treats.
Regarding the barking:
3) My dog had tendencies to bark at strange noises when I first brought him home (though they were admittedly less strong than your dog's). I fixed that by giving him a treat whenever we heard a noise in the hallway, as soon as it happened. Basically, I didn't give him a chance to bark. When he would bark, I would ignore him until at least a minute after the barking had ceased.
Regarding your work on his separation anxiety:
4) When you come home, ignore him at first. This is really hard, especially when your dog is barking or otherwise desperately trying to tell you how over-the-moon he is to see you, but it makes a big, big difference. If you are excited when you get home, if you treat him as soon as you get home, you are basically teaching him: Family leaves + I get anxious = Family returns, with lovies and treats! When I was going through this with my dog I set a timer on my phone and would ignore him for 8 minutes upon returning to the apartment. It was hard but it did help a lot.
Finally, I would:
5) Ask your vet if medication might be an option. Some dogs need their anxieties to be managed with medicine. IMO it's best to use as a last resort, but it sounds like your dog's separation anxiety is quite severe. I know of many successful cases where Xanax or similar is used for a few weeks to manage anxiety, and then the dog is weaned off of it. Obviously YMMV.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:20 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
After a couple of cycles, he is no longer interested in any treats and just barks, ignoring any treat (I've tried chicken, hot dogs, real salmon, seriously).
Our dog trainer is helping us work with our leash-reactive shelter dog, and 90% of his food right now is dedicated to our leash training times. This has made a huge difference; after our walk today we saw a dog while we were in our parked car, and although he barked once and got super worked up, I offered him a handful of kibble/hot dog and he stuck his face into it and snarfed it down, and then allowed me to feed him more kibble bits until he calmed down. This is noticeably different behavior from a pup that never cared about kibble on walks; as recently as last week he would ignore giant chunks of hot dog on the ground in front of him if another dog was around to freak out about.
The current ace in the hole is wet cat food; he gets anxious walking from the car to the backyard, but I let him lick some wet food from a little foil packet as we walked and he completely forgot about checking for other dogs.
I know that he's not ready to get out there and meet other dogs yet, and if he did, he'd probably go over threshold immediately and start ignoring even cat food, but as long as we're keeping the exposure light and the dog a little hungry, he's paying enough attention to food right now to break out of some of the other behaviors related to his anxiety.
posted by redsparkler at 2:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Our dog trainer is helping us work with our leash-reactive shelter dog, and 90% of his food right now is dedicated to our leash training times. This has made a huge difference; after our walk today we saw a dog while we were in our parked car, and although he barked once and got super worked up, I offered him a handful of kibble/hot dog and he stuck his face into it and snarfed it down, and then allowed me to feed him more kibble bits until he calmed down. This is noticeably different behavior from a pup that never cared about kibble on walks; as recently as last week he would ignore giant chunks of hot dog on the ground in front of him if another dog was around to freak out about.
The current ace in the hole is wet cat food; he gets anxious walking from the car to the backyard, but I let him lick some wet food from a little foil packet as we walked and he completely forgot about checking for other dogs.
I know that he's not ready to get out there and meet other dogs yet, and if he did, he'd probably go over threshold immediately and start ignoring even cat food, but as long as we're keeping the exposure light and the dog a little hungry, he's paying enough attention to food right now to break out of some of the other behaviors related to his anxiety.
posted by redsparkler at 2:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I agree with holding a high value treat in your hand and keeping him interested in that as you navigate situations where he might bark, pull, get distracted (this is the system I used to get my Husky to ignore other dogs when we walked, I also used a "walk nice" command).
I dealt with the pulling with a Halti Harness, basically when the dog pulls, it sort of turns it around backwards so it's facing you, works like a charm and is non-abusive.
posted by HuronBob at 3:14 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I dealt with the pulling with a Halti Harness, basically when the dog pulls, it sort of turns it around backwards so it's facing you, works like a charm and is non-abusive.
posted by HuronBob at 3:14 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Regarding the exercise recommendations: do you take your dog to an offleash dog park/run? I have a mutt of unknown provenance, but who definitely seems to have some border collie in him. I absolutely have to give him an opportunity to run off-leash (ideally with other dogs to play with) at least every other day or he starts to go a little crazy. But if he does get that exercise, he's a lot easier to manage. When I was living in a place where it was hard to get him to the dog park that frequently, I sent him to an outdoor doggie daycare where he got to run and run and run.
Also, have you hired a 1-on-1 trainer? I worked with trainer briefly when mine was a puppy, and it's amazing how quickly a good, experienced trainer can teach your dog something that can take you months. It's that authoritative trainer voice.
posted by lunasol at 3:33 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, have you hired a 1-on-1 trainer? I worked with trainer briefly when mine was a puppy, and it's amazing how quickly a good, experienced trainer can teach your dog something that can take you months. It's that authoritative trainer voice.
posted by lunasol at 3:33 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Friends of mine are training their apartment-dwelling rescue not to bark with a citronella-spray collar and it's going well.
posted by nicwolff at 3:38 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nicwolff at 3:38 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The first thing I'd suggest is that you find a behaviorist/trainer and shell out for some one-on-one sessions.
Dogs, like people, are all different. What motivates and works for one might not work for another, so if you have a dog that isn't responding to one method, it can really help to have an experienced behaviorist to lend a fresh eye to your situation. We are pretty good with dogs and happy with regular training classes and stuff, but when we had some issues integrating multiple dogs, we found a behaviorist trainer who helped a whole lot. She was able to understand our dogs' different personalities and help us come up with ideas for how to work with them best. It was some of the best money we've ever spent.
And we have one dog in particular who is very high energy, very smart, and who just goes all in on everything she does, whether it's barking, running, playing, eating, cuddling, or even sleeping. She just does everything really, really hard, and she can sometimes have problems with reactivity because of it. Again, this may not apply for your dog, but she can often be distracted from one behavior by encouraging another one. If she's barking, for example, we can redirect her to do something else. I can't take credit for this because this was the dog's idea, but when she is trying to control her impulses, she'll go find something to carry around in her mouth as a calming technique/distraction. Ideally a toy, but sometimes a shoe, a beer can, or even a little scrap of paper or other trash. So we keep a big basket of toys easily accessible, and when she starts looking agitated or there's some exciting situation coming up, we'll tell her to go get a toy and maybe play some tug of war with her or something for a bit.
Also just a "Look" command is ridiculously useful. If you can train him to always instantly drop everything and just look at you when you tell him "Look," that breaks the impulse and everything else falls right into place. It's not easy to do, and you have to be super-consistent and set him up for success by starting out only in situations where you know it'll work, but after enough repetition, it can become second nature.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dogs, like people, are all different. What motivates and works for one might not work for another, so if you have a dog that isn't responding to one method, it can really help to have an experienced behaviorist to lend a fresh eye to your situation. We are pretty good with dogs and happy with regular training classes and stuff, but when we had some issues integrating multiple dogs, we found a behaviorist trainer who helped a whole lot. She was able to understand our dogs' different personalities and help us come up with ideas for how to work with them best. It was some of the best money we've ever spent.
And we have one dog in particular who is very high energy, very smart, and who just goes all in on everything she does, whether it's barking, running, playing, eating, cuddling, or even sleeping. She just does everything really, really hard, and she can sometimes have problems with reactivity because of it. Again, this may not apply for your dog, but she can often be distracted from one behavior by encouraging another one. If she's barking, for example, we can redirect her to do something else. I can't take credit for this because this was the dog's idea, but when she is trying to control her impulses, she'll go find something to carry around in her mouth as a calming technique/distraction. Ideally a toy, but sometimes a shoe, a beer can, or even a little scrap of paper or other trash. So we keep a big basket of toys easily accessible, and when she starts looking agitated or there's some exciting situation coming up, we'll tell her to go get a toy and maybe play some tug of war with her or something for a bit.
Also just a "Look" command is ridiculously useful. If you can train him to always instantly drop everything and just look at you when you tell him "Look," that breaks the impulse and everything else falls right into place. It's not easy to do, and you have to be super-consistent and set him up for success by starting out only in situations where you know it'll work, but after enough repetition, it can become second nature.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:56 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It sounds like the trainers are teaching an all-reward training philosophy and it just isn't working for you. This stuff can be a minefield because people make all sorts of judgements, but I am of the opinion that punishment is a perfectly acceptable way to train a dog. There are ways to punish a dog without physically hitting them - my dog is incredibly bull-headed and dog-reactive and she reacts to a growled no and me glaring hardcore at her far better than she ever reacted to treats. I just out stubborn her - she knows that once I bring out the angry voice she's not getting her way and that's that.
Leash-pulling wise, she was awful and is strong enough to drag you down the street. We tried a bunch of the "humane" non-pull solutions, and she HATED them. She would drag her face on the ground trying to get the strap off her muzzle rather than walking. I talked to a police dog trainer and she strongly suggested switching to a prong collar. It's honestly the best thing I ever did. She went from impossible to walk to pleasant. I talked my brother in law into trying mine with his rambunctious dog, and just the act of having it on made him behave - they didn't need to use it at all. It really is kind of miraculous.
My dog basically never barks so I can't help you on that front, but I have heard good things about the citronella no-bark collars.
posted by zug at 4:57 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Leash-pulling wise, she was awful and is strong enough to drag you down the street. We tried a bunch of the "humane" non-pull solutions, and she HATED them. She would drag her face on the ground trying to get the strap off her muzzle rather than walking. I talked to a police dog trainer and she strongly suggested switching to a prong collar. It's honestly the best thing I ever did. She went from impossible to walk to pleasant. I talked my brother in law into trying mine with his rambunctious dog, and just the act of having it on made him behave - they didn't need to use it at all. It really is kind of miraculous.
My dog basically never barks so I can't help you on that front, but I have heard good things about the citronella no-bark collars.
posted by zug at 4:57 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Based on this description, you're not really doing what the trainers say. It sounds to me like you are literally rewarding him for barking. To wit:
However, extincting behaviors without the freedom to patiently ignore is very, very difficult. At this point, any attention you give him when he's barking is a reward for his behavior, treats or no. He knows now that if he barks he will have your undivided attention, and, possibly, salmon and hot dogs. Who wouldn't bark in exchange for such treats as these?
You may need to switch to negative reinforcement. I've used spray bottles (with water) and shaking cans of pennies to stop stubborn and pernicious unwanted behavior. I always use this sort of thing as a last resort. My parents' last dog had an extremely bad habit of pawing and climbing on people to get attention, and, as a pretty large dog, he could easily overwhelm my folks' social set, which consists entirely of older people. After one squirt to the face he was done, and after that just *seeing* the squirt bottle was enough to redirect him to another activity. It's important not to do this angrily and as a punishment technique--the entire goal of this sort of thing is to reboot your dog so that you can redirect him calmly and appropriately. The *moment* the desired behavior occurs, the bottle/can should be put out of sight and the negative pressure eliminated.
I would recommend trying the "penalty yards" technique, which involves making the dog move away from his goal when he pulls. It basically goes like this: Dog pulls. You actually regress *backwards*, bringing the dog even further from his goal. When the leash slackens, click/treat then move forward. Rinse, repeat.
It sounds like you have the right idea and your heart is in the right place, but I think you need more professional help than PetSmart training classes. Separation anxiety and barking are difficult for even the most experienced dog owners to work with.
posted by xyzzy at 6:10 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
he barely pauses barking for even a moment for me to give him the treat, and after he eats the treat, starts barking againSometimes the easiest thing to do with a behavior problem where you don't have the freedom to just ignore disliked behavior (like in an apartment building) is to teach the dog to do the thing you hate on command. Once you can teach him to "speak" you can then teach him to be "quiet." Another possibility is to teach the dog to do a behavior that's incompatible with barking as a distraction technique.
However, extincting behaviors without the freedom to patiently ignore is very, very difficult. At this point, any attention you give him when he's barking is a reward for his behavior, treats or no. He knows now that if he barks he will have your undivided attention, and, possibly, salmon and hot dogs. Who wouldn't bark in exchange for such treats as these?
You may need to switch to negative reinforcement. I've used spray bottles (with water) and shaking cans of pennies to stop stubborn and pernicious unwanted behavior. I always use this sort of thing as a last resort. My parents' last dog had an extremely bad habit of pawing and climbing on people to get attention, and, as a pretty large dog, he could easily overwhelm my folks' social set, which consists entirely of older people. After one squirt to the face he was done, and after that just *seeing* the squirt bottle was enough to redirect him to another activity. It's important not to do this angrily and as a punishment technique--the entire goal of this sort of thing is to reboot your dog so that you can redirect him calmly and appropriately. The *moment* the desired behavior occurs, the bottle/can should be put out of sight and the negative pressure eliminated.
he would continue straining at the leash as though I didn't exist for 5 full minutesThis is a commonly taught but not always effective method of loose leash training. Unfortunately, you've taught him that he can pull for five minutes and then get what he wants. This is similar to another mistake I would see people commonly make, which I call the five sit syndrome. People would keep saying sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit until their dog sat, then treat. The dog ACTUALLY learns that he must hear sit 5 times, then it's time to sit. Dogs are quite literal.
I would recommend trying the "penalty yards" technique, which involves making the dog move away from his goal when he pulls. It basically goes like this: Dog pulls. You actually regress *backwards*, bringing the dog even further from his goal. When the leash slackens, click/treat then move forward. Rinse, repeat.
It sounds like you have the right idea and your heart is in the right place, but I think you need more professional help than PetSmart training classes. Separation anxiety and barking are difficult for even the most experienced dog owners to work with.
posted by xyzzy at 6:10 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
This might sound harsh but - does he get an hour of running everyday? If so - does he get an hour and a half of running everyday? My lab needed an hour of trail running every day to follow normal rules. He was so so easy to train if he was well exercised.
I can't imagine that breed of dog surviving in an apartment without doggie daycare - without going insane.
posted by ReluctantViking at 6:18 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't imagine that breed of dog surviving in an apartment without doggie daycare - without going insane.
posted by ReluctantViking at 6:18 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have a working dog like this. The dog trainers say that this isn't how dogs "should" react, but I say that "should" is for normal dogs and these aren't normal dogs. Think of them like kids in a super-smart accelerated class - you don't treat them like normal kids because they aren't. The super-smart working dogs require different tactics too.
1) Doggie daycare is essential for socialization. You can't keep working dogs in a bubble even if you tire them out. Your pup needs to get more familiar with surprises and new situations, and a daycare will do that.
2) The leave it command is essential. And start working harder at stay (away from the door and let someone else get it). Have a friend help you practice. If you can get him to pause before he goes into bark mode it will be much easier to break the habit.
3) I got a bark collar for mine, and I felt guilty at first, but boy-howdy did it work fast. After 2 or 3 episodes I can put it on her with the power off and it's a perfect reminder. I can see her thinking before she barks. I don't correct her for 1 or 2 barks, just the long spells, and it broke that pattern really well. Get one with adjustable levels so you don't cross the abusive line with whatever your dog needs. I also use a squirt gun with water for minor corrections.
4) My dog pulls at the leash too - a lot of it I just tolerate, ymmv. And doggie-exhaustion helps too. But when pulling isn't acceptable I make her sit, and sit until I move first. She has to sit before we cross roads, leave the house, juggle groceries and a dog leash, etc. It does take a bunch of struggling by the side of the road for her to get the idea, but having to be more stubborn than your dog just comes with the territory of having a super-smart dog. They aren't easy, but that's what I love about them.
posted by dness2 at 6:50 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
1) Doggie daycare is essential for socialization. You can't keep working dogs in a bubble even if you tire them out. Your pup needs to get more familiar with surprises and new situations, and a daycare will do that.
2) The leave it command is essential. And start working harder at stay (away from the door and let someone else get it). Have a friend help you practice. If you can get him to pause before he goes into bark mode it will be much easier to break the habit.
3) I got a bark collar for mine, and I felt guilty at first, but boy-howdy did it work fast. After 2 or 3 episodes I can put it on her with the power off and it's a perfect reminder. I can see her thinking before she barks. I don't correct her for 1 or 2 barks, just the long spells, and it broke that pattern really well. Get one with adjustable levels so you don't cross the abusive line with whatever your dog needs. I also use a squirt gun with water for minor corrections.
4) My dog pulls at the leash too - a lot of it I just tolerate, ymmv. And doggie-exhaustion helps too. But when pulling isn't acceptable I make her sit, and sit until I move first. She has to sit before we cross roads, leave the house, juggle groceries and a dog leash, etc. It does take a bunch of struggling by the side of the road for her to get the idea, but having to be more stubborn than your dog just comes with the territory of having a super-smart dog. They aren't easy, but that's what I love about them.
posted by dness2 at 6:50 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
If your dog is a breed bred to work quite literally all day long herding sheep like an Aussie or a border collie, there's little hope of gaining traction training or extinguishing problem behaviors without giving the dog adequate exercise. A tired dog is a good dog. It takes way more than just walks to tire out herding, working dogs. Your dog likely needs a minimum of an hour running around off leash every single day. Many if not most medium to large dogs of any breed need that anyway.
I agree with others above that you've been rewarding your dog for barking and for pulling. I second the recommendation for Patricia McConnell books such as The Other End of the Leash and, for separation anxiety, I'll Be Home Soon.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:23 PM on January 23, 2016
I agree with others above that you've been rewarding your dog for barking and for pulling. I second the recommendation for Patricia McConnell books such as The Other End of the Leash and, for separation anxiety, I'll Be Home Soon.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:23 PM on January 23, 2016
We have a barky aussie as well. These dogs are super smart.
But he learns new tricks you say?! Give that dog a job!
When you start nearing a barksplosion situation, distract your dog by having him do a trick (even if it's just "sit!") it helps to throw them off mentally from the Barry situation and focus on doing a trick for a treat. It takes a little work at first but does work.
Definitely check with your playgroup to see what he is up to - is it just a walk or are they letting him run around at full tilt? He may need more exercise. Aussies need a ton.
I suppose we are lucky in that we have a very food-motivated Aussie, but figure out what he lives and use that as motivation. Good luck.
posted by floweredfish at 6:21 AM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
But he learns new tricks you say?! Give that dog a job!
When you start nearing a barksplosion situation, distract your dog by having him do a trick (even if it's just "sit!") it helps to throw them off mentally from the Barry situation and focus on doing a trick for a treat. It takes a little work at first but does work.
Definitely check with your playgroup to see what he is up to - is it just a walk or are they letting him run around at full tilt? He may need more exercise. Aussies need a ton.
I suppose we are lucky in that we have a very food-motivated Aussie, but figure out what he lives and use that as motivation. Good luck.
posted by floweredfish at 6:21 AM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Some followup things I forgot to mention. We do use a citronella collar, but have to cycle using it and not using it. After using it consistently for a few days, Dog begins to ignore the sprays and just bark right through it. If we stop using it for a week or so, it starts "working" again. But again, not really consistent.
He has basically had 1-on-1 training, because the training classes we took him to for his first year and a half of life had low enrollment. Only 3 out of maybe 50 total training sessions had another dog there, so he got lots of excellent 1-on-1 attention. But his separation anxiety really didn't kick in too bad until he was about 2 years old. I'll look into some local trainers and agility training, if I can afford it.
I have given him puzzle toys and frozen/unfrozen Kongs, but like I said, he won't do ANYTHING when he's home alone. So that's not really a good reward/distraction for him.
Not that anyone was excessively scolding about active dog + apartment, but when we got him, we did live in a house with a yard. We live in a city with an increasingly severe housing crisis, and had to move into an apartment because our house rent went up much higher than we could afford. We've tried to supplement walks with daycare on weekdays, but again, the population boom means the doggie daycares near us fill up fast and we can't always get a spot. Obviously it's not my dream to keep an active dog in an apartment, and I don't think anyone ever really intends to do so, but life happens and we humans have to make the best of it.
Thank you for all the suggestions. I'll keep plugging away. I'm glad to know I'm not alone, at least, in not having a "normal" dog.
posted by petiteviolette at 10:58 AM on January 24, 2016
He has basically had 1-on-1 training, because the training classes we took him to for his first year and a half of life had low enrollment. Only 3 out of maybe 50 total training sessions had another dog there, so he got lots of excellent 1-on-1 attention. But his separation anxiety really didn't kick in too bad until he was about 2 years old. I'll look into some local trainers and agility training, if I can afford it.
I have given him puzzle toys and frozen/unfrozen Kongs, but like I said, he won't do ANYTHING when he's home alone. So that's not really a good reward/distraction for him.
Not that anyone was excessively scolding about active dog + apartment, but when we got him, we did live in a house with a yard. We live in a city with an increasingly severe housing crisis, and had to move into an apartment because our house rent went up much higher than we could afford. We've tried to supplement walks with daycare on weekdays, but again, the population boom means the doggie daycares near us fill up fast and we can't always get a spot. Obviously it's not my dream to keep an active dog in an apartment, and I don't think anyone ever really intends to do so, but life happens and we humans have to make the best of it.
Thank you for all the suggestions. I'll keep plugging away. I'm glad to know I'm not alone, at least, in not having a "normal" dog.
posted by petiteviolette at 10:58 AM on January 24, 2016
I would consider getting a Treat & Train. We got it for our bark-at-every-noise dog and, after he learned that the machine dispenses treats (controlled by a remote that you hold), he freaking loves the thing. Our dog has always been easily trick-trainable, but stubborn on the whole be-a-generally-good-dog thing. The dvd and training booklet are wonderful resources and feature real-life dogs with similar issues. One key to it working properly is to use the dog's regular kibble (not treats) instead of feeding your dog meals or free-feeding (so they are more food motivated, don't gain weight, and b/c kibble is nutritionally balanced and treats aren't).
We got it as a last-ditch hail mary, after trying multiple trainers and behaviorists and medication and it really surprised us when it worked.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:37 PM on January 24, 2016
We got it as a last-ditch hail mary, after trying multiple trainers and behaviorists and medication and it really surprised us when it worked.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:37 PM on January 24, 2016
Just to clarify something I glossed over some: Not all trainers are really behaviorists. (Not endorsing the ASPCA there. It's just a decent summary of different qualifications.)
A lot are, of course, and a lot of trainers without official behaviorist qualifications are really good at it anyway, but a lot of trainers are actually kind of clueless about dog behaviors, and just use a one size fits all technique for training. So it's not just the one-on-one nature, but the qualifications of the person doing the consulting. Dogs are much more emotionally complex than many give them credit for, and as with people, the smarter ones are often the weirder ones.
Unfortunately, I don't know of any clear and unambiguous way to identify a qualified trainer, but those qualifications are a start. And I will say that I would avoid dominance trainers as well, as they grossly underestimate the intelligence of dogs, and assume that every single behavior is motivated by dominance and/or submission. People who train guard dogs and protection dogs tend toward this, and in my experience, they are wrong a lot.
If you have a good shelter in your area, that might be a good place to ask. A progressive shelter with the necessary resources will often offer services to all pet owners in the community, and will often have behaviorists on staff or be able to recommend some. (If you're having a housing crisis in your area, I'm hoping that at least means your community has resources to support a good quality sheltering system.)
posted by ernielundquist at 3:29 PM on January 24, 2016
A lot are, of course, and a lot of trainers without official behaviorist qualifications are really good at it anyway, but a lot of trainers are actually kind of clueless about dog behaviors, and just use a one size fits all technique for training. So it's not just the one-on-one nature, but the qualifications of the person doing the consulting. Dogs are much more emotionally complex than many give them credit for, and as with people, the smarter ones are often the weirder ones.
Unfortunately, I don't know of any clear and unambiguous way to identify a qualified trainer, but those qualifications are a start. And I will say that I would avoid dominance trainers as well, as they grossly underestimate the intelligence of dogs, and assume that every single behavior is motivated by dominance and/or submission. People who train guard dogs and protection dogs tend toward this, and in my experience, they are wrong a lot.
If you have a good shelter in your area, that might be a good place to ask. A progressive shelter with the necessary resources will often offer services to all pet owners in the community, and will often have behaviorists on staff or be able to recommend some. (If you're having a housing crisis in your area, I'm hoping that at least means your community has resources to support a good quality sheltering system.)
posted by ernielundquist at 3:29 PM on January 24, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
For this...
...when I was first leash training him and he would pull too much, trainers say to wait, the dog will wonder why you're not coming, and will eventually come back to you, when you reward him. This never worked. He would pull, I would stop, he would continue straining at the leash as though I didn't exist for 5 full minutes before I would give up and just drag him along. He doesn't care about even the highest-value treats when he gets really excited.
I say this with sympathy, having had a very smart dog and fully knowing how freaking frustrating this must be, but...you've trained him successfully--it's just that what he has learned is that if he just strains at the leash for a full 5 minutes you will give in. That's his reward for straining at the leash, and it's why he hasn't stopped doing it. These dogs are smart enough to outwait you, unfortunately.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:50 PM on January 23, 2016 [12 favorites]