How did you deal with gender-based wage discrimination?
January 22, 2016 1:50 PM Subscribe
Forgive me for the two part question Hivemind, and I super know you are not my lawyer - I will ask a lawyer for legal advice if I need it. But...
1) Have you ever sued or reported a company for gender-based wage discrimination? Do you regret it?
2) Have you ever experienced it? How did you deal with your emotions?
I've been working in a job I'm qualified at an insulting low salary, and took on multiple levels of responsibility past that job while doing it. I quit. Now I've learned that they've offered a male candidate with...
- Multiple years less job-related experience
- No relevant education
- No industry experience (I had multiple years, plus significant expertise coming in)
.... 30% to 40% more than what they were paying me to come do my job. When I spoke with him he was outraged about what they were paying me versus what they offered him, so I don't think this is entirely in my head.
This isn't about money for me; it's about injustice. I'm not worried about finances or finding a new job, but I feel taken advantage of, upset, and angry that my employers (who are known for doing this across the board) are going to get away with this. But I also know how costly, risky, and emotionally draining lawsuits can be, especially since I'm just one person.
If this has happened to you - can you share your stories, particularly what actions you took (or decided not to take), and how you coped emotionally if it was too risky for you to directly address the situation?
I've been working in a job I'm qualified at an insulting low salary, and took on multiple levels of responsibility past that job while doing it. I quit. Now I've learned that they've offered a male candidate with...
- Multiple years less job-related experience
- No relevant education
- No industry experience (I had multiple years, plus significant expertise coming in)
.... 30% to 40% more than what they were paying me to come do my job. When I spoke with him he was outraged about what they were paying me versus what they offered him, so I don't think this is entirely in my head.
This isn't about money for me; it's about injustice. I'm not worried about finances or finding a new job, but I feel taken advantage of, upset, and angry that my employers (who are known for doing this across the board) are going to get away with this. But I also know how costly, risky, and emotionally draining lawsuits can be, especially since I'm just one person.
If this has happened to you - can you share your stories, particularly what actions you took (or decided not to take), and how you coped emotionally if it was too risky for you to directly address the situation?
I don't think that this is legally actionable (I'm not a lawyer/your lawyer). However, going forward, this is why it's critical to negotiate hard for your starting salary and then continue to negotiate regularly for raises. Both of these things tend to be done by men in the workforce in far greater numbers than by women. Over time, in addition to benefiting from a sexist system, this aggressiveness regarding salary means men tend to improve their salaries at a much faster clip than women do. This makes a huge financial difference over a lifetime of work.
posted by quince at 2:41 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by quince at 2:41 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Not trying to thread sit at all - but just want to note that there are cases in which this kind of situation has been legally actionable, so not totally coming out of left field here. From my light reading, successors can be considered claimants (not just current co-workers), and "superior negotiating ability" has not been considered in certain cases as an adequate defense.
posted by libertypie at 2:47 PM on January 22, 2016
posted by libertypie at 2:47 PM on January 22, 2016
The fact that you quit could mean, to an employer, that the wage they were offering was not high enough to retain good staff...so, now they are offering more. That is a reasonable business practice. Additionally, unemployment has continued to fall, so the labor market is not what it was when you were hired. Not to say that there wasn't discrimination...but your chance of proving it in a case like this is very low.
posted by Ausamor at 3:08 PM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Ausamor at 3:08 PM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have had a couple involvements with employment discrimination and what I was told by lawyers and eventually came to believe myself was the following.
No legal remedy will make you feel better. The process isn't made for that. Employment law may seem to be, on its face, about fairness and redress and making things right, but it's still the law, and the law doesn't care. Almost nobody gets to feel satisfied. If you go to mediation even, and you just ask for an apology and $3000, and you somehow get both those things, which isn't going to happen, most likely, you will go home and wake up still feeling empty.
You can pursue the question of there even being a legal question with a competent and experienced employment discrimination attorney, which you should do, ensuring first that you receive a FREE consultation. Absolutely.
But if you want vengeance, or to feel better, or some other kind of change in the universe, you should identify a remedy that is not the legal system.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 3:29 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
No legal remedy will make you feel better. The process isn't made for that. Employment law may seem to be, on its face, about fairness and redress and making things right, but it's still the law, and the law doesn't care. Almost nobody gets to feel satisfied. If you go to mediation even, and you just ask for an apology and $3000, and you somehow get both those things, which isn't going to happen, most likely, you will go home and wake up still feeling empty.
You can pursue the question of there even being a legal question with a competent and experienced employment discrimination attorney, which you should do, ensuring first that you receive a FREE consultation. Absolutely.
But if you want vengeance, or to feel better, or some other kind of change in the universe, you should identify a remedy that is not the legal system.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 3:29 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
IANAL but I've been in HR a long time so I've seen this around.
One off situations make it difficult to prove discrimination. Unless you've got like an email from your boss saying, "No don't leave we'll have to hire a guy and pay him twice as much" or some other history of discrimination in other ways then there are always going to be multiple differences that they can lean on as their reason for the higher salary. Maybe those reasons are legitimate, the people above have made a few arguments as to why those reasons are legitimate. Maybe it really is gender based discrimination, but defending a one off is pretty easy.
Now, if there is a history of this or you can show in one job classification or company all the men are paid more or get more significant raises then a lawyer might want to take on that case. But with nothing to go on but one male replacing one female in the same job getting paid more, I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck.
posted by magnetsphere at 3:33 PM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
One off situations make it difficult to prove discrimination. Unless you've got like an email from your boss saying, "No don't leave we'll have to hire a guy and pay him twice as much" or some other history of discrimination in other ways then there are always going to be multiple differences that they can lean on as their reason for the higher salary. Maybe those reasons are legitimate, the people above have made a few arguments as to why those reasons are legitimate. Maybe it really is gender based discrimination, but defending a one off is pretty easy.
Now, if there is a history of this or you can show in one job classification or company all the men are paid more or get more significant raises then a lawyer might want to take on that case. But with nothing to go on but one male replacing one female in the same job getting paid more, I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck.
posted by magnetsphere at 3:33 PM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't speak to the legal aspect, but I can talk a little about coping.
After discovering a salary discrepancy similar to yours, I was able to be outwardly professional and didn't mention it to anyone at work. However, my inner life was another story. I found that whenever I tried to "just let go of bitterness" it made me depressed and frustrated with myself for not even being able to be the bigger person. Salary is a very personal thing and what happened to you was completely unfair. It is okay to be upset. I became a lot more productive and proactive when I accepted that the situation sucked, that my feelings about it sucked, and that neither of those things were going to change until I changed the situation.
I also think that if I had had more friends and mentors within the industry at the time, I would have struggled less on an emotional level. These days I see that salary gaps like this happen to a lot of people, that they get pretty upset about it, and that professional reputation does not have a direct relationship with salary. So that would be my other piece of advice--shore up your professional relationships so that you know there are other people out there who believe you deserve better.
To be completely honest, though, I was only able to completely let go when I found a job where they offered me market value unprompted. I felt rejuvenated, which was totally surprising to me because I'd gotten so used to feeling down about it that I no longer knew I was depressed.
posted by rhythm and booze at 6:10 PM on January 22, 2016
After discovering a salary discrepancy similar to yours, I was able to be outwardly professional and didn't mention it to anyone at work. However, my inner life was another story. I found that whenever I tried to "just let go of bitterness" it made me depressed and frustrated with myself for not even being able to be the bigger person. Salary is a very personal thing and what happened to you was completely unfair. It is okay to be upset. I became a lot more productive and proactive when I accepted that the situation sucked, that my feelings about it sucked, and that neither of those things were going to change until I changed the situation.
I also think that if I had had more friends and mentors within the industry at the time, I would have struggled less on an emotional level. These days I see that salary gaps like this happen to a lot of people, that they get pretty upset about it, and that professional reputation does not have a direct relationship with salary. So that would be my other piece of advice--shore up your professional relationships so that you know there are other people out there who believe you deserve better.
To be completely honest, though, I was only able to completely let go when I found a job where they offered me market value unprompted. I felt rejuvenated, which was totally surprising to me because I'd gotten so used to feeling down about it that I no longer knew I was depressed.
posted by rhythm and booze at 6:10 PM on January 22, 2016
I am a lawyer and I have defended many companies in discrimination cases.
Depending on your jurisdiction and what laws and regulations apply to your company (based on size, public v private, union issues, etc) this may be a very strong case.
You have not provided enough facts in this post for this to be determined and I suggest you not to supplement your post if you want to pursue this bc the post is public and a misstatement may hurt your claim.
Be aware that there may be deadlines upcoming very soon for your attorney to file a pre-litigation notice with the DFEH & EEOC.
Go shop this around to employment litigators and see what they say. It shouldn't cost you anything -- attorneys who work on contingency only get paid if you get money.
posted by PlannedSpontaneity at 8:20 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Depending on your jurisdiction and what laws and regulations apply to your company (based on size, public v private, union issues, etc) this may be a very strong case.
You have not provided enough facts in this post for this to be determined and I suggest you not to supplement your post if you want to pursue this bc the post is public and a misstatement may hurt your claim.
Be aware that there may be deadlines upcoming very soon for your attorney to file a pre-litigation notice with the DFEH & EEOC.
Go shop this around to employment litigators and see what they say. It shouldn't cost you anything -- attorneys who work on contingency only get paid if you get money.
posted by PlannedSpontaneity at 8:20 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't want to be that guy, but do you have coworkers to compare salary with? I'm convinced you are underpaid, not convinced it's because of gender.
Employers in my experience seem more willing to offer higher wage bumps to new hires than raises to current employees for some perverse reason.
posted by TheAdamist at 9:18 PM on January 22, 2016
Employers in my experience seem more willing to offer higher wage bumps to new hires than raises to current employees for some perverse reason.
posted by TheAdamist at 9:18 PM on January 22, 2016
The EEOC (and your state FEP (Fair Employment Practices) agency) accept complaints of sex discrimination in employment, including complaints of sex discrimination in compensation, within 180 or 300 days. You can also contact NELA (National Employment Lawyers Association) or your state affiliate. I'm sorry this happened.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 12:34 AM on January 23, 2016
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 12:34 AM on January 23, 2016
I'm a woman and I've worked in tech for 20 years, so I have experience with wage discrepancies. I'm also a hiring manager. I don't know what happened in your situation, but I want you to be prepared since you're relatively new to the work force. There might be many non gender-based reasons this man is getting a higher salary than you got, including:
After you left they realized the position was salaried too low to attract the caliber of candidates they wanted, so they increased the salary.
They heard during interviews that every candidate was asking for a higher salary than what you got, so they realized they were low balling it.
He asked for a higher salary during negotiations. He negotiated better than you did.
You got in at rate X, and because of a policy of giving only Y% raises over time, you may or may not have ever reached his same rate.
He gave the impression he's worth a higher salary because of skills, experience, cultural fit, interests, ambition, or other abilities that the company doesn't perceive you as having.
Somebody there already knew him, or knew of or liked his work, and he had a higher salary requirement than you stipulated. Companies will often favor known quantities and pay them more.
He was also being courted by another company during the hiring process, and he wound up being paid more because of a salary bidding war (or just two competing offers and a counter offer) between two companies.
It's also, obviously, possible he's paid more just because he's a man.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:01 AM on January 23, 2016
After you left they realized the position was salaried too low to attract the caliber of candidates they wanted, so they increased the salary.
They heard during interviews that every candidate was asking for a higher salary than what you got, so they realized they were low balling it.
He asked for a higher salary during negotiations. He negotiated better than you did.
You got in at rate X, and because of a policy of giving only Y% raises over time, you may or may not have ever reached his same rate.
He gave the impression he's worth a higher salary because of skills, experience, cultural fit, interests, ambition, or other abilities that the company doesn't perceive you as having.
Somebody there already knew him, or knew of or liked his work, and he had a higher salary requirement than you stipulated. Companies will often favor known quantities and pay them more.
He was also being courted by another company during the hiring process, and he wound up being paid more because of a salary bidding war (or just two competing offers and a counter offer) between two companies.
It's also, obviously, possible he's paid more just because he's a man.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:01 AM on January 23, 2016
I've been working in a job I'm qualified at an insulting low salary, and took on multiple levels of responsibility past that job while doing it.
I think you answered your own question. "NOW OPEN: Job with insultingly low salary. Apply within." If you were a candidate for this role today and got offered your salary would you take it? It was enough to retain you for a while but it was not enough to replace you. When you took on that additional work you became a huge value to them. You were performing 1.25 jobs there and they were paying you for .9 of one, not necessarily because you're a woman but because they could; you were free to leave at any time to find a better job and now you're exercising that option. But now they have to fill 1.25 jobs and they can't do that offering a .9 salary. You could have been a man, woman, or computer: you saved them money for a while but when something breaks or leaves it's the market that decides the replacement price.
posted by good lorneing at 8:33 AM on January 23, 2016
I think you answered your own question. "NOW OPEN: Job with insultingly low salary. Apply within." If you were a candidate for this role today and got offered your salary would you take it? It was enough to retain you for a while but it was not enough to replace you. When you took on that additional work you became a huge value to them. You were performing 1.25 jobs there and they were paying you for .9 of one, not necessarily because you're a woman but because they could; you were free to leave at any time to find a better job and now you're exercising that option. But now they have to fill 1.25 jobs and they can't do that offering a .9 salary. You could have been a man, woman, or computer: you saved them money for a while but when something breaks or leaves it's the market that decides the replacement price.
posted by good lorneing at 8:33 AM on January 23, 2016
My wife is a plaintiff's employment attorney and some of advice in this thread is very wrong in our part of the country. No qualified attorney here will take this kind of case on contingency except in very very rare circumstances and only one (less than a year out of law school) will do free consultations. You can locate qualified firms in your area on www.nela.org and you almost certainly don't want someone not listed there. Superficially, you appear to have the key elements to a case, although there are some key facts missing. I think it could be worth your while to talk to someone.
posted by Lame_username at 8:48 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Lame_username at 8:48 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Generally speaking, gender-based wage discrimination is hard to prove, and, without systemic multiply-sourced allegations, nearly impossible to find representation for. You can learn more from the Institute for Women's Policy Research (IWPR) and perhaps they can advise you on how to put your rage over perceived injustice into context.
From an emotional standpoint? You're young and only six or so years into the workforce. This is not the hill you want to die on. You can choose to move on, to decide that being upset and angry won't serve you in the long run but will raise your blood pressure. Let it go and be happy.
posted by juniperesque at 2:31 PM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]