Neighbourhood watch: Is this dog-abuse or am I being overly sensitive?

December 21, 2015 5:07 AM

My neighbour is exhibiting strange behaviour towards their dog but as a non-pet owner, I am unaware of how unruly dogs are 'handled'. Advice?

This is the second time I have noticed strange behaviour between my neighbours and their pet dog. Firstly, they are a couple and their dog behaves in a sort of manic way by constantly jumping on the fence for no apparent reason as if it wants to go into someone else's garden and it appears to destroy their garden in the process. Now in my extra sensitive state I am starting to think that it might be running away from something but I don't want to 'influence' you in that way.

The first time this happened I heard the most insanely loud shouting from the man. I ran to the window because I thought he was going nuts and he was shouting at the dog which must have been terrifying for it (it was terrifying for me). It was trying to run to their neighbours fence as if it wanted to leap over. He seems to restrain the dog onto the ground. I don't want to make things up but I got the sense that he might have been punching it. I cannot say for sure because there is a fence covering him up to his shoulder and I couldn't see the dog. The only thing I heard afterwards was him complaining about the dog to his neighbour who said to him 'yeh, sometimes you have to show them who's boss'. That was a few months ago.

Yesterday, I heard a woman screaming. It was his wife. She ran out with a rope. The dog ran from her into the garden where the woman could not get to it and she was waiting for the dog to come down. The dog eventually did and she hit it with the rope several times. She then held the dog by its front legs to walk it inside the house. Is this a normal way of restraining a dog?

Probably irrelevant info: they are a professional, presentable couple. They have kids staying with them and another dog. The dog in question is a she (no idea about breeds).

I also need to add that these are not my immediate, adjacent neighbours. Their garden is facing my adjacent neighbour's garden so while I know which street they live on, I do not know their house number. How do I report them and who to? The police or the RSPCA? Should I?

I am in London (UK).

posted by ihaveyourfoot to Pets & Animals (24 answers total)

Response by poster: I just wanted to add that I do not want the neighbour to know it is me because he has anger issues (both of the neighbours across from me do) so avoiding that is also a priority for me. He once manically ripped apart the branches from his tree and threw them into my neighbour's garden. His facial expressions whilst he was doing this were bizarre - like he was in a fit of rage. He saw me watching him but continued to do it as if he could not control himself. It was bizarre to watch.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:14 AM on December 21, 2015

The answer is yes and no: these are absolutely not modern, recommended ways of training or handling a dog, but people do it anyway thinking that the only way to train a dog is to abuse it. They may even have a "trainer" telling them to do this. Still doesn't mean it's not abuse, though. Whether you can get anyone to come out and check on the welfare of the dog depends on the quality of your local humane officers.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:16 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

This is one of those situations where I think it's more "idiot people who don't know how to train a dog" than capital letters Dog Abuse. Go ahead and call RSPCA. You're clearly upset and taking action to "do" something about it will make you feel better. I've called the ASPCA a pile of times over the years to report clear and edge case instances of animal cruelty.

For what it's worth, though obviously what you've seen is not the best way to handle it, dogs bolt from houses all the time, not necessarily because anything bad is happening in the house. It happens because they see a squirrel or a bird or a suspicious leaf or maybe they just forgot how doors work and got excited and confused. Dogs can be kind of dumb.
posted by phunniemee at 5:17 AM on December 21, 2015 [12 favorites]

Yelling at the dog... typical poor training...
Holding the dog down to "show it who the boss is" ...typical poor training
walking the dog by holding it's legs... marginal training
Beating the dog with a rope... Call animal protection agency...that's abuse.
posted by HuronBob at 5:28 AM on December 21, 2015 [25 favorites]

I wouldn't expect RSPCA or your local council to do anything about it - Cesar Milan kicks dogs as part of his training technique and he had his own TV show.

Dominating your dog isn't an uncommon method of dog training and is espoused by many "experts". Obviously its not the only choice and animal behaviour specialists would recommend positive reinforcement (although IME that works much better at training good behaviours rather than discouraging bad behaviours)

You claim to have seen her hit the dog with the rope, if they do come and investigate, she'll deny it and there's not likely any evidence, so it your word against hers. If the dog is fed and otherwise taken care of that will probably be the end of it, unless you can get her on film hitting the dog.
posted by missmagenta at 5:38 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Not to threadsit but I could definitely film it. The only problem is that if she sees the footage, it will have been filmed from such an angle that she would know it was me and then I'll have another problem on my hands.

From the answers so far it seems as if they may have been trained in how to handle dogs but they are doing a poor job of it. Is that worth reporting? The fact that I am not even an animal lover and I have been disturbed by it might be an indication that it is but it might also be an indication of my ignorance on this matter. I have never lived near dog owners so I do not know what is 'normal'.

Thanks for the responses.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:47 AM on December 21, 2015

This might not be capital letters Animal Abuse but this is in no way the correct method of dealing with/training an unruly dog. Please call the authorities.
posted by Brittanie at 6:13 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I can't see any way that they would see the footage if you get good evidence of abuse and give it to the police. You could mention to the police that you are afraid of retaliation and so it's very important for you to stay an anonymous reporter.

I would feel morally obligated to film this if I could. That poor dog.
HOWEVER I might call the RSPCA first and ask about any legal issues with your filming.
posted by nakedmolerats at 6:52 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

That's definitely abuse. Please, for the sake of the dog, report these people.
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 7:25 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

their dog behaves in a sort of manic way by constantly jumping on the fence for no apparent reason as if it wants to go into someone else's garden and it appears to destroy their garden in the process.

This is normal behavior for several breeds, especially Jack Russell Terriers, who were bred to dig, hunt and run. JR's will try to jump over fences or dig under them. They will dig up flower beds, gardens and lawns. They can be quite manic, and a complete pain in the neck to train.

HuronBob's explanation is best. Hitting a dog is not discipline. It is abuse. But police or animal protection agencies usually will not step in unless there is evidence.
posted by zarq at 8:56 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

How can punching a dog, hitting it with a rope, and dragging it inside by holding its two front legs not be abuse? I mean, in what world?

Speaking solely for myself, as a bold and verbal person, I'd be ringing the doorbell and saying I saw/heard xx, and wanted to say how much it upset me. I'd be asking what is going on, and whether they have heard of positive reinforcement to train animals. I might even offer to take the dog myself. If I didn't get good responses, I'd be telling them I was going to call the ASPCA, and then I'd do it.

Would you hesitate if you saw this happening to a child? Why do dogs deserve less?
posted by bearwife at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

The dog sounds like it is not getting enough simulation to use up its energy, so it's hyper and releasing it how he can. Which leads to owner frustration. The owners are making it worse by hurting and scaring it.

The beating with a rope is definitely abuse. Definitely. And it the man was punching the dog, that's even worse.

I think you are safe reporting it as they are not your direct neighbor, so therefore could be coming from other people as well.

I would suggest talking to other neighbors as well and asking them to report it also. Also, do film it just to have on hand.

You will be doing a good thing. Poor dog.

(Um, then there's the 'dog accidentally got out and disappeared to a safe home far, far away' option. Just saying...)
posted by Vaike at 9:26 AM on December 21, 2015

The dog is afraid of them. They hit it with a rope. It's abusive. Please call authorities who can help them.
posted by SLC Mom at 9:32 AM on December 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Beating the dog with a rope is abusive; talk to the authorities for that, at least to get their advice, even if you can't prove it. And do film if you see something else.

Punching is also abuse - but you didn't actually see that happen, you inferred it.

Barking (even to the point of sounding like things are Wrong, depending on the breed - 2nd zarq on JRTs ) and running away and generally making a ruckus is not unusual for high-spirited dogs that aren't well trained (also for some that are).

There are lots of trainers espousing training that revolves around showing the dog who's boss (e.g.), for sure. Sounds like these people are trying something like that, and also frustrated by a dog they can't handle.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:46 AM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

That is disgusting. It is animal cruelty, not 'training' by any stretch of the imagination.

My dog bolts in and out of the house, and throws herself against the fence, because she's a bit nuts. I would never, ever, hit her with a rope, punch her, or drag her by her legs.

Treating a defenceless animal like this is like being violent with a toddler. It's despicable.

I'd report these assholes in a heartbeat.
posted by Salamander at 10:38 AM on December 21, 2015 [5 favorites]

Proper training of a dog does not involve yelling at the dog or hitting / kicking / physically striking the dog.
posted by jeffamaphone at 12:02 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Training methods that involve establishing dominance are one thing and any that involve physically striking the dog and causing pain are a bad idea but at least it's based on some thought into how dogs think and react. I disagree with many Caesar Milan's methods and many of the things he does are not really intended for "normal" dogs but dogs that have developed behavioral problems.

What you're describing isn't that. It sounds like these people beat their dog because they don't know any better. Even if this dog has the kinds of issues the Caesar Milan's rehabilitation methods would help with, these people are not Caesar Milan. He at least has DECADES of experience working with dogs.

These people are not training their dog. The only thing that dog is learning is to be afraid of it's humans. The BEST outcome in that situation is the dog lives a miserable life. The far more likely outcome is one of the dog's owners ends up getting bitten and the dog ends up dead and hopefully HOPEFULLY just euthanized and not beaten to death.

Report them. Hopefully they learn the error of their ways, get a real trainer to visit them and can move towards actually training the dog in a safe, productive, and healthy way and everyone will be happy (you and the dog included). If not, everyone will be happier if the dog is re-homed, especially the dog.
posted by VTX at 12:32 PM on December 21, 2015

All I needed to read was that she hit the dog with the rope, call the authorities, that poor dog needs rescuing.
posted by shesbenevolent at 12:55 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Just call the authorities - they can determine if it is dog abuse or not. Tell them you don't want to leave your name, but you are a concerned neighbor. Just call, please call.
posted by Toddles at 8:14 PM on December 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Call 911. This dog needs you to be its voice. Just call for help! This is insane. Kudos to you for caring about this defenceless animal.
posted by stepup at 9:30 PM on December 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

A lot of what you describe is pretty normal dog behaviour (being hyper, jumping, running away).

Some is "not nice owner behaviour" (yelling and screaming).

Some people believe a misbehaving dog needs to be "alpha rolled"- flipped onto its back and held there til it submits to the pack leader (owner). Some others believe this is a poor dog training- but it isn't abusive.

You didn't see the man punch the dog, because of the fence. Did the dog yelp sharply when the man pinned it down? A rolled dog might whimper (out of annoyance or anxiety, but not pain) but I think a punched dog would yelp sharply, as if crying "ow!". If the dog didn't yelp, it was probably not being punched.

You say the woman was "holding the dog by its front legs to walk it inside"- people have started saying "dragging" in these answers, but that's not what you said.

I think people are picturing the dog lying flat with its belly or back on the ground, and being dragged by one or two legs like this. This pose would really hurt a dog and would be abusive.

But reading your question that's not what I thought you meant. I pictured her behind the dog, holding its front paws up and letting its rear paws dangle, so the dog is "standing" vertically, and the dog's back is against the woman's belly- kind of like this. This pose would not hurt a dog.

"Hitting the dog with a rope" is not good anger management but it may or may not be abusive. If it's a thick rope and a small delicate dog, that's terrible, but whapping a Rottweiler with a light nylon leash once in a while- well it's not perfect but I wouldn't confiscate a dog for it. Did the owner HURT the dog, that's the question. Did the dog yelp in pain? How big is the dog? Cat sized or wolf sized? The breed matters. Can you search some breed pictures and see what breed it is?

Anyway I think you SHOULD film these people because you keep saying you don't know anything about dogs. So film them and show the video to a couple friends who have owned a similarly sized dog, and see what they say.

If you do need to go to law enforcement, you can refuse to give them the video. Let them watch it on your phone but don't give them a copy- delete it as soon as they see it if you must.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:41 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Ok I looked at the breeds. It's a chocolate dog that looks like a retriever. It's quite big. She was holding it vertically by its front legs (so the dog was in front of her) and walking/carrying it into the house like that (vertically). I don't know a single person who owns a dog - no friends or family own dogs so i'll have to show the internet when I film it.

Thanks for the advice.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 3:12 AM on December 23, 2015

psuedostrabismus did a really good job here. Despite the number of answers jumping to conclusions, it's actually really hard to tell from your post if these people are abusive or non-abusive bad dog owners (it is easy to tell that they aren't good dog owners, but the law enforcement system can't do anything about that--specifically, the law enforcement system can't do anything about mild physical punishment, what you might call "spanking", regardless of how any individuals feel about it).

To address point by point:

• Shouting and restraining--not abusive, even if they don't actually teach the dog anything other than to dislike people.
• Punching--abusive if it's a punch, but you can't confirm that it happened at all or that it was a punch vs "spanking".
• Hitting with a rope--may be abusive, depends on the rope and how you swing it, still not a useful dog-training technique. You would need to show that it was a hard hit, and not "spanking".
• Walking on hind legs--not good if held near the paws, but if held near the armpits probably the only sensible thing these people did according to your post. If you need to move a dog somewhere and the dog is too heavy for you to carry and too ill-mannered for you to lead, walking like that is one of the easier ways to have solid control of the dog without getting bitten or causing the dog much discomfort.

I do encourage you to take video of anything like this, if only for yourself--you can review the video as many times as you need to in order to assess if the dog is being "hit" or "spanked" (basically if it's causing the dog pain vs a minor discomfort) and you'll have a trail of documentation if you need it later.

You could also anonymously give them a book on clicker training... Not that I'm super hopeful, they sound like the type who just keep talking louder in the hopes that the dog will start understanding human speech...
posted by anaelith at 5:37 AM on December 25, 2015

Hitting with a rope IS abusive. Sorry but it is. Punching, if punching actually happened, would be extremely abusive.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:44 PM on January 3, 2016