Do you know why my espresso machine is acting like this?
November 29, 2015 12:18 PM Subscribe
I've had my Rancilio Silvia V3 for several years and have gotten to know its quirks (and my own home barista skill limitations) well. But I just moved, set it up in my new kitchen, and its current behavior is new to me! When I pull a shot, after a few seconds the stream gets very wide, light, and frothy, and I can hear loud frothing/bubbling/steaming when I turn off the flow. It's currently impossible to get a drinkable shot because of this. Any ideas?
It's a stock machine, no PID or other mods except for a naked portafilter and a triple VSP basket. I'm letting the machine heat up, making sure the boiler is full, and my grind's a little off, but not so much to cause this wild variation. I also know about the CoffeeGeek and Home Barista forums but was hoping to get a quick answer from the experts here!
It's a stock machine, no PID or other mods except for a naked portafilter and a triple VSP basket. I'm letting the machine heat up, making sure the boiler is full, and my grind's a little off, but not so much to cause this wild variation. I also know about the CoffeeGeek and Home Barista forums but was hoping to get a quick answer from the experts here!
Sounds like restricted flow through a seive. Hard water deposits, maybe? Vinegar works great to get that gunk off. Just rinse well afterwards :)
posted by wwartorff at 12:55 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by wwartorff at 12:55 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
First thought is this sounds like a pump. Second thought is, perhaps the dip tube in your water reservoir isn't fully submerged. I don't know much about the Silvia, and what it's heat exchanger is like, but I'd recommend this:
Open it up. Look it over very carefully. Unplug things, plug them back then. Make sure all the parts are where they are supposed to be.
These are complicated machines, and this is like posting an ask.mefi that says "My car won't start, what's going on?" A lot could be wrong, from the pump to the heat exchanger to the reservoir to even a seal. Oh yeah, check the gaskets. Maybe power it up and pull a shot with all the panels off, and make sure you aren't getting pressure loss due to a bad gasket somewhere.
Also, get ahold of the folks at Espresso Parts. I used to work their, and I speak very highly of their knowledge. They can help diagnose the problem, and they stock these parts.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 12:58 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Open it up. Look it over very carefully. Unplug things, plug them back then. Make sure all the parts are where they are supposed to be.
These are complicated machines, and this is like posting an ask.mefi that says "My car won't start, what's going on?" A lot could be wrong, from the pump to the heat exchanger to the reservoir to even a seal. Oh yeah, check the gaskets. Maybe power it up and pull a shot with all the panels off, and make sure you aren't getting pressure loss due to a bad gasket somewhere.
Also, get ahold of the folks at Espresso Parts. I used to work their, and I speak very highly of their knowledge. They can help diagnose the problem, and they stock these parts.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 12:58 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not shooting down wwartorff's idea, because it's a very good one, but normally calcified deposits build up in a machine, and you don't just get this sudden catastrophic failure. That's why I think during the move you jostled something out of place - but you could have jostled a calcium deposit which is now stuck in (for example) your pump or somewhere.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 1:02 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by special agent conrad uno at 1:02 PM on November 29, 2015
Best answer: Popping in once more - I looked up Silvia schematics, this could totally be a solenoid issue. If the solenoid is prematurely opening for pressure release while the pump is activated, this could cause the kind of pressure problem you are seeing.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 1:14 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by special agent conrad uno at 1:14 PM on November 29, 2015
It kind of sounds like the coffee/grind to me. I hope you're using a good burr grinder - if so, try tightening it up a little. Or you can try some preground Illy or something for troubleshooting purposes.
The bubbling sounds like the three way valve working. I think my machine is older but if yours has the same arrangement, with the grate removed you can watch it drain into the drip tray, which might help figure out what's happening.
posted by exogenous at 1:22 PM on November 29, 2015
The bubbling sounds like the three way valve working. I think my machine is older but if yours has the same arrangement, with the grate removed you can watch it drain into the drip tray, which might help figure out what's happening.
posted by exogenous at 1:22 PM on November 29, 2015
I too have a Rancilio Silvia V3 and think I've seen a similar effect, though I don't really associate it with the state of the machine as much as the state of the ground.
You're saying that the pull is suddenly all crema? And this is consistent?
And it's undrinkable? It doesn't settle down?
Silly question, but have you recently started on a new bean?
posted by rlk at 1:24 PM on November 29, 2015
You're saying that the pull is suddenly all crema? And this is consistent?
And it's undrinkable? It doesn't settle down?
Silly question, but have you recently started on a new bean?
posted by rlk at 1:24 PM on November 29, 2015
Going on the theory that a chunk of calcification got shaken loose by your move you might try cleaning it with espresso machine deliming stuff. The instructions that came with my Gaggia were emphatic about not using vinegar but rather the specialty cleaner. I don't know if that's just to maximize their profits but given the cost of the machines we've stuck with the instructions. In any case, seems not unlikely that you got some calcification jarred loose when you moved. Of course also possible that some connection in that machine got jarred loose too.
posted by leslies at 2:11 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by leslies at 2:11 PM on November 29, 2015
Response by poster: I replaced the shower screen and grouphead gasket a few months ago, and the machine was backflushed and cleaned before it was packed, so clogs or grouphead issues seem unlikely, though a descaling probably wouldn't hurt. I've got years of experience with varying grind and bean and tamp, and this is nothing like anything I've ever seen-it's not just a faster or slower extraction, it's a much more significant and violent difference than that. From a little more research it sounds like special agent conrad uno is probably right about it being a solenoid issue.
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:20 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:20 PM on November 29, 2015
I don't know much about the Silvia, and what it's heat exchanger is like
Silvia is a single pump, not an HX. You have to heat up for steam separately from espresso operation.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 3:32 PM on November 29, 2015
Silvia is a single pump, not an HX. You have to heat up for steam separately from espresso operation.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 3:32 PM on November 29, 2015
Best answer: I fix these (and used to own one). Stupid question out of the way first, are you sure the steam switch is off? From your description it sounds like you might be brewing at steam temp/pressure. Did your move include any opportunity for the machine to freeze or be dropped? Do you get a normal flow of water from the grouphead without the portafilter in place?
Bubbling sounds from a Silvia at any time is usually excess pressure being routed out of the overpressure/expansion valve and back into the water tank. If that valve were failing or out of adjustment it could be opening too early and bleeding off pump pressure during brewing, but a loss of pressure at the brewhead should simply slow the extraction, not cause it to blonde/froth up. If the solenoid were opening prematurely you'd immediately lose all of your grouphead pressure into the drip tray in a quite obvious fashion (you should be familiar with this sound from backflushing). It's almost impossible for that to happen due to the configuration of this machine, but if there's one thing I've learned it's that anything is possible with coffee!
posted by bizwank at 4:35 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bubbling sounds from a Silvia at any time is usually excess pressure being routed out of the overpressure/expansion valve and back into the water tank. If that valve were failing or out of adjustment it could be opening too early and bleeding off pump pressure during brewing, but a loss of pressure at the brewhead should simply slow the extraction, not cause it to blonde/froth up. If the solenoid were opening prematurely you'd immediately lose all of your grouphead pressure into the drip tray in a quite obvious fashion (you should be familiar with this sound from backflushing). It's almost impossible for that to happen due to the configuration of this machine, but if there's one thing I've learned it's that anything is possible with coffee!
posted by bizwank at 4:35 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: bizwank, it definitely sounds/feels more like steam than like the backflush noise. And I do get a perfectly normal flow of water from the grouphead without the portafilter in place, and also with an empty portafilter in place. The steam switch was definitely off, though it's possible the steam wand knob was on open.
The machine was very securely packed within a box, and that box was tightly packed into my moving pod, and I personally carried it from the pod to my apartment, so there shouldn't have been much opportunity for it to get dropped or banged around. I moved to Colorado in early November and the moving pod sat in a warehouse for a little more than a week, so freezing is certainly a possibility. The water tank was of course empty but I guess there could still have been some water in the boiler.
posted by rhiannonstone at 7:25 PM on November 29, 2015
The machine was very securely packed within a box, and that box was tightly packed into my moving pod, and I personally carried it from the pod to my apartment, so there shouldn't have been much opportunity for it to get dropped or banged around. I moved to Colorado in early November and the moving pod sat in a warehouse for a little more than a week, so freezing is certainly a possibility. The water tank was of course empty but I guess there could still have been some water in the boiler.
posted by rhiannonstone at 7:25 PM on November 29, 2015
If the knob had been open you would have seen water leaking from the wand while brewing, which again would have caused lower brew head pressure but probably not the symptoms you've described.
There is always some water in the boiler unless you purposefully drain it; if there was freezing damage it'd be where the boiler meets the brew head plate and you'd probably see/hear water or steam leaking from the machine once it started heating up.
For further troubleshooting I would try descaling and backflushing again, then checking the temperature of the water at the brewhead with an instant-read digital thermometer (if possible); it should be around 205F. If everything checks out there I would try pulling a few more shots without changing anything on the coffee/grind side of things and see if you can consistently reproduce the extraction issue. If so, I would try a slightly finer grind, and if your beans are more then a few weeks old I'd replace them as well just to rule that out.
posted by bizwank at 10:07 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is always some water in the boiler unless you purposefully drain it; if there was freezing damage it'd be where the boiler meets the brew head plate and you'd probably see/hear water or steam leaking from the machine once it started heating up.
For further troubleshooting I would try descaling and backflushing again, then checking the temperature of the water at the brewhead with an instant-read digital thermometer (if possible); it should be around 205F. If everything checks out there I would try pulling a few more shots without changing anything on the coffee/grind side of things and see if you can consistently reproduce the extraction issue. If so, I would try a slightly finer grind, and if your beans are more then a few weeks old I'd replace them as well just to rule that out.
posted by bizwank at 10:07 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by I-baLL at 12:49 PM on November 29, 2015