Godel, Escher, Bach: worth it?

October 10, 2015 5:01 AM

Is it a waste of time for me to even attempt to read Godel, Escher, Bach when I don't have a very good foundational knowledge of math?

GEB appears on practically everybody's must-read list. But these folks frequently seem to be computer science professionals who already have a lot of pre-existing understanding of recursion or other abstract mathy things.

I'm a layperson with terrible math skills but a small amount of programming experience. Will I get anything out of the project of reading GEB? And if so, are there supplemental readings that can help?

posted by overeducated_alligator to Education (18 answers total)

Yeah, read it. Been a long time for me but it really changed the way I thought about music and other things. Even if you don't understand everything, just read and let it sink in.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 5:10 AM on October 10, 2015 [2 favorites]

Totally. If you're aware of the idea of math you are qualified to read this book and it's a really fun read. Just beware the tortoise. :-)
posted by sammyo at 5:26 AM on October 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

you don't need to know a lot of maths to read it.

however, i don't think it's a particularly great book myself. it's twee and way too long, from what i remember. i'd suggest the computational beauty of nature instead.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:31 AM on October 10, 2015 [13 favorites]

Personally I think you are the right audience for GEB. My degree is in math and theoretical computer science and I couldn't get through it because the format of the book is to teach you a lot of that material in a clever, but methodical and gradual way. It's a lot more enjoyable if you're totally naive to the material -- for me it lost most of its shine because I could see the punchlines coming far in advance.

As I said I've never finished the book so I can't guarantee this to be the case, but I think it's likely that it's the kind of book where even if you feel shaky on some concepts as you read, you will still be able to get a decent amount out of it. I wouldn't worry about needing supplemental readings in order to enjoy it.
posted by telegraph at 5:38 AM on October 10, 2015 [9 favorites]

Yeah, it's not a math book. More of a mystical one. Enjoy.
posted by rokusan at 6:56 AM on October 10, 2015

I read GEB:EGB as a high school student and loved it. Read it again a year ago and still enjoyed it. It's a happy, silly, deeply intelligent romp. Unreservedly recommended.
posted by flabdablet at 7:04 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

You will get loads out of it, and it's a wonderful book. It introduces concepts step by step, and you should stop and do the exercises as you go. It's also cool to listen to listen to the music he talks about - that was particularly eye-opening for me.
posted by StephenF at 7:35 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

It was lifechanging for me. I am a computer scientist now - but that wasn't the plan before I read GEB.

Give it a shot, why not? What have you got to lose? If it's not for you, you'll know it in the first couple hundred pages.
posted by town of cats at 7:58 AM on October 10, 2015

I read "I am a Strange Loop" and found it interesting but it moved differently than other philosophy and/or technical books I have read but overall I did not find it overly dense. If feeling trepidation about GEB why not try Strage Loop first? Or just to echo what others are saying, why not get a used copy or get from the library and give it a shot and if you don't like it you have made minimal investment in it.
posted by z11s at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2015

The more I think of GEB, it seems like the book equivalent of "the dumb person's idea of a smart person" It's less deep and profound the longer you think about it. It's just way too cute for its own good.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:27 AM on October 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

It's a great book to read if you're approximately age 16-24 and want to get your mind blown, but I think its efficacy falls off after that. I can appreciate that some folks may feel differently, though.
posted by matildaben at 9:45 AM on October 10, 2015 [3 favorites]

The power of this book is in its ability to teach you what you need to know to understand the concepts. Have patience, it may take several readings to understand the Godel bits, but IMO it's worth it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:49 AM on October 10, 2015 [1 favorite]

My 13 year old loves it. On the other hand, after a year or so, she still hasn't finished it.
posted by latkes at 11:12 AM on October 10, 2015

Yes read it. Remember that the book was written in the late 1970s, when even a lot of scientists and mathematicians didn't have much exposure to computer science concepts. It explains everything from first principles. I think this is why it seems a little bit twee or self-satisfied to some people -- when it was written, the field of modern computer science was only like 25 years old and everything was intoxicatingly new. There was no standard textbook presentation of these concepts, so Hofstadter didn't really have a "sober" point of comparison to make him calm down.

Most of the stuff in the book about AI is really dated. And there's a lot of stuff that's like, 70s guy's ideas about Zen he got from reading Kerouac.

A CS professor of mine said that the book is worth reading but not necessarily finishing. I'd say if you feel like bailing after about 75% that's fine, you'll have gotten the main point (which is about Turing machines/Gödel's theorem/diagonalization). It is a little self-indulgent.
posted by vogon_poet at 1:01 PM on October 10, 2015 [5 favorites]

I love math but totally as a layperson. Well, I'm a Web developer, but on a daily basis I'm counting pixels and things like that. I loved reading GEB many years ago, in college, I think, and your post is reminding me that I should read it again!

I also read and loved his book Le Ton Beau De Marot: In Praise Of The Music Of Language, which is about poetry rather than math... very compelling but so so so sad, such a loving tribute to his wife...
posted by lgandme0717 at 3:42 PM on October 10, 2015

To add to the chorus of opinion: it's probably worth reading, but a bit too cute and self-indulgent for someone with a technical background. For a non-specialist, it might be just the thing. If you find it too slow for your taste, there are many other more concise books that cover similar ground.

(As a grad student, I missed Hofstader's talk, but my housemate took my copy of GEB in for an autograph...)
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:05 PM on October 12, 2015

I bought GEB when it was new because I loved Bach and Escher and figured that whoever this Godel guy was, he must be interesting if he was being lumped in with J.S.B. and M.E. At the time, I knew next to nothing about computers in general, much less programming, and no math beyond high school. I enjoyed the book immensely.

For what it's worth, I ended up with degrees in both math and computer science, and retired last year after teaching CIS classes at university level for 25 years. I'm not going to say that GEB is the only reason that my life took that direction, but it certainly was a factor. I've always felt indebted to Doug Hofstadter for writing it.
posted by TwoToneRow at 9:49 PM on October 13, 2015 [1 favorite]

I still think it's a splendid book. A little precious, sure, but seriously great.

You can totally read it without forcing yourself to pay painstaking attention to the many logic examples and so on he asks you to work through as he builds his strange loop arguments. It's worth it to try, at least, and rewarding to do so, but not essential to get the thrust of things.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:52 PM on October 26, 2015