US permanent residency through marriage, difficulty: young relationship
September 22, 2015 9:01 PM Subscribe
I'm in the US on an F-1 visa, finished my Ph.D. and am currently on the post-degree OPT period which expires next May. My girlfriend and I have decided to get married so that I can stay in the country. We're in a bona fide relationship but have only been dating a couple of months, don't live together, and don't have the kinds of documents that most married couples can show to prove their marriage (e.g. joint lease / bank accounts). We’re getting a lawyer, but are also hoping to get some advice here from people who have been through the green card process.
We're going into this with the attitude that getting married is something we're doing so I can stay in the country and is not more significant than that. Sure, we might decide down the road that we want to spend our lives together, but we wouldn't be thinking about it now if it weren't for the visa issue. We're both sensible people and realize that it's too early for us to decide whether to make a long-term commitment of that kind; on the other hand, if I have to leave the country in May, we'll never know. My girlfriend has been clear that even if it turns out we might split up, this is still something she'd want to do to help me.
Presumably USCIS will look askance at the short period we've known each other and at the lack of typical documents. Have you been in a similar situation? If you’ve gone through the green card process, what would you recommend we do to show the authorities that our marriage is a genuine one? We'll be using the San Francisco office of USCIS, so I'd also be specifically interested in hearing experiences with that office. Throwaway email address: askme92215@gmail.com
We're going into this with the attitude that getting married is something we're doing so I can stay in the country and is not more significant than that. Sure, we might decide down the road that we want to spend our lives together, but we wouldn't be thinking about it now if it weren't for the visa issue. We're both sensible people and realize that it's too early for us to decide whether to make a long-term commitment of that kind; on the other hand, if I have to leave the country in May, we'll never know. My girlfriend has been clear that even if it turns out we might split up, this is still something she'd want to do to help me.
Presumably USCIS will look askance at the short period we've known each other and at the lack of typical documents. Have you been in a similar situation? If you’ve gone through the green card process, what would you recommend we do to show the authorities that our marriage is a genuine one? We'll be using the San Francisco office of USCIS, so I'd also be specifically interested in hearing experiences with that office. Throwaway email address: askme92215@gmail.com
I went through the K1 fiance visa process with my ex-husband. It is nontrivial in the extreme.
When we were interviewed, we showed up with stacks and stacks of documentation and photos. I made a binder to give to our interviewer with copies of everything. It included our joint bank accounts, our wills, wedding album, vacation photos, affidavits from friends and coworkers, utility bills in both our names… it was epic. Generally, you'll have enough time between the application and the interview to do things like get a joint bank account, get utility bills, buy something big together like a car, etc.
But if you're only doing this to stay here and you're not sure if you want to marry each other? Don't. Your girlfriend's willing to marry you even if you split up? Well, she's facing some serious charges in that case. Her best-case scenario is that she's stuck with an affidavit of support that obliges her to support you for 10 years whether you're still married or not.
It's a Very Bad Idea to do this if you're not absolutely sure about each other.
posted by culfinglin at 9:26 PM on September 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
When we were interviewed, we showed up with stacks and stacks of documentation and photos. I made a binder to give to our interviewer with copies of everything. It included our joint bank accounts, our wills, wedding album, vacation photos, affidavits from friends and coworkers, utility bills in both our names… it was epic. Generally, you'll have enough time between the application and the interview to do things like get a joint bank account, get utility bills, buy something big together like a car, etc.
But if you're only doing this to stay here and you're not sure if you want to marry each other? Don't. Your girlfriend's willing to marry you even if you split up? Well, she's facing some serious charges in that case. Her best-case scenario is that she's stuck with an affidavit of support that obliges her to support you for 10 years whether you're still married or not.
It's a Very Bad Idea to do this if you're not absolutely sure about each other.
posted by culfinglin at 9:26 PM on September 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
Get thee to Visa Journey.
posted by k8t at 9:27 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by k8t at 9:27 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, basically you are "trying to show the authorities that your marriage is a genuine one" when it's not.
I haven't done this personally, but I've had a ton (seriously, a couple dozen) friends who have. It is extremely in-depth, and you are going to need to get all that stuff you say you don't have (combined leases and bank accounts, etc) and prove to some highly skeptical people that you plan to stay together forever, when you don't. You better be a damned good liar. And know the color of her toothbrush.
posted by celtalitha at 9:28 PM on September 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I haven't done this personally, but I've had a ton (seriously, a couple dozen) friends who have. It is extremely in-depth, and you are going to need to get all that stuff you say you don't have (combined leases and bank accounts, etc) and prove to some highly skeptical people that you plan to stay together forever, when you don't. You better be a damned good liar. And know the color of her toothbrush.
posted by celtalitha at 9:28 PM on September 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
Look, that sounded really judgy. Some of the people I know who have committed visa fraud (because that's what it is) are some of my favorite people in the world. But your question comes off a little flip and not realizing that you are exactly the sort of person the entire process is designed to weed out.
posted by celtalitha at 9:32 PM on September 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by celtalitha at 9:32 PM on September 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
Yeah, I don't have a comment on the ethical side of it, or even whether it's appropriate for two individuals not sure about the long term commitment but omg do not even breathe a word to anyone that you are not in this for any reason other than True Love OMG It Is Forevah! From everything I've read, the US authorities are crazy strict about this sort of thing. "Askance" is an incredibly mild description for how they will look at you if they are not 100% convinced.
I provided a statement for friends of mine seeking permanent residency in australia (they are a same sex couple and at that time there weren't civil partnership options but Australia recognised their relationship for immigration purposes as if they were a hetero couple). I had sent them postcards from trips I'd taken and they were submitted as evidence of their relationship which felt kind of odd to me as I'd genuinely sent them to two dear friends and now they are languishing on file somewhere. Probably along with drunken photos of me, I hate to think. I also had to submit a stat dec with my perspective of their relationship (considering I'd had my friend gushing to me for hours and hours over his new bf from shortly after they'd met, this was not hard).
But even so, doing a stat dec is all very official. I was comfortable because they were very much in love and living together etc and so I was declaring the truth. If you have to get friends to fake this then you're involving even more people in fraud (no moral judgement from me, but people won't necessarily be happy and IANAL so no idea on the legal side). Even with all this evidence, and they are the types to send each other lovey dovey cards for every occasion; it was still a big deal compiling all the evidence - and stressful, expensive, anxiety-inducing.
posted by kitten magic at 9:52 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I provided a statement for friends of mine seeking permanent residency in australia (they are a same sex couple and at that time there weren't civil partnership options but Australia recognised their relationship for immigration purposes as if they were a hetero couple). I had sent them postcards from trips I'd taken and they were submitted as evidence of their relationship which felt kind of odd to me as I'd genuinely sent them to two dear friends and now they are languishing on file somewhere. Probably along with drunken photos of me, I hate to think. I also had to submit a stat dec with my perspective of their relationship (considering I'd had my friend gushing to me for hours and hours over his new bf from shortly after they'd met, this was not hard).
But even so, doing a stat dec is all very official. I was comfortable because they were very much in love and living together etc and so I was declaring the truth. If you have to get friends to fake this then you're involving even more people in fraud (no moral judgement from me, but people won't necessarily be happy and IANAL so no idea on the legal side). Even with all this evidence, and they are the types to send each other lovey dovey cards for every occasion; it was still a big deal compiling all the evidence - and stressful, expensive, anxiety-inducing.
posted by kitten magic at 9:52 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I highly recommend this family immigration lawyer in SF: Richard Kolomejc. He did my (now ex-)husband and my green card process and was very, very good. Do everything he says - as thoroughly as possible - and you'll be as prepared as you can be for the paperwork and the interview. He also knows everyone (down to the security guards) at UCIS, and they all know him. Any lawyer is worth the money in your position (since they can come into the interview with you, which helps keep the questioning tame), so just get a good one and do what they say.
posted by Jaclyn at 9:54 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Jaclyn at 9:54 PM on September 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
We did this with even less time dating, but we were a genuine couple (still are!) and so it was easy in retrospect to pass the interview. We also happened to have a lawyer that everyone respected, which helped.
Yeah, you can totally do this. It helps if you guys have a good relationship. Seriously.
You should think about pre-marital counseling. It's great to have relationship skills, and it will make you guys look proactive about making things work. Plus, it's hard being from two different cultures and sharing a home and commitments. the counseling will be awesome.
posted by jbenben at 9:55 PM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, you can totally do this. It helps if you guys have a good relationship. Seriously.
You should think about pre-marital counseling. It's great to have relationship skills, and it will make you guys look proactive about making things work. Plus, it's hard being from two different cultures and sharing a home and commitments. the counseling will be awesome.
posted by jbenben at 9:55 PM on September 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Eh, this is more of a grey area I think. They have a real relationship and may well stay married, it doesn't really seem like fraud to me. People rush into marriage knowing it might or might not last all the time for lots of reasons.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with having "we want to stay together" as a reason to get married.
In my case, we had been together a year before engagement and then did K-1 and residency. We had a real relationship and wanted to get married and everything. Would we have waited longer if there was no visa issue? Maybe. It definitely factored into timing. I think thats reasonable. But its not really something you'd want to bring up or volunteer in interviews.
As for what they want --- it depends. We didn't have any joint accounts or anything, she's not on my lease, etc. I mean we are living together but there's no real proof of it. However, our green card interview was after a K-1 process so there had already been a bunch of documentation/etc about the relaitonship. Also we had a wedding and honeymoon with pictures and receipts, and it wasn't a very cheap wedding which probably helps.
The actual interview for the green card was super easy and short. We expected much worse.
It also depends on what country you are from. Countries with high immigration or fraud rates are typically subjected to more scrutiny.
posted by thefoxgod at 9:57 PM on September 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
And I don't think there's anything wrong with having "we want to stay together" as a reason to get married.
In my case, we had been together a year before engagement and then did K-1 and residency. We had a real relationship and wanted to get married and everything. Would we have waited longer if there was no visa issue? Maybe. It definitely factored into timing. I think thats reasonable. But its not really something you'd want to bring up or volunteer in interviews.
As for what they want --- it depends. We didn't have any joint accounts or anything, she's not on my lease, etc. I mean we are living together but there's no real proof of it. However, our green card interview was after a K-1 process so there had already been a bunch of documentation/etc about the relaitonship. Also we had a wedding and honeymoon with pictures and receipts, and it wasn't a very cheap wedding which probably helps.
The actual interview for the green card was super easy and short. We expected much worse.
It also depends on what country you are from. Countries with high immigration or fraud rates are typically subjected to more scrutiny.
posted by thefoxgod at 9:57 PM on September 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also VisaJourney is great but some people there are incredibly judgy and harsh about all sorts of things, and I guarantee you if you post this as-is you will get even more negative responses than you see here. It is a good resource however.
(In general I found the community there both very helpful and extremely negative, not the same people obviously)
posted by thefoxgod at 9:59 PM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
(In general I found the community there both very helpful and extremely negative, not the same people obviously)
posted by thefoxgod at 9:59 PM on September 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's proverbial that green card marriages don't last, what to speak of sham green card marriages. Dealing with the then INS was humiliating, degrading, intrusive and a significant drain of time and money. Putting aside the illegality and moral repugnance of it, if this was your girlfriend asking the question, I'd tell her the sheer hassle involved in dealing with Immigration far outweighs the benefits.Of course the benefits are better in your case so it's your call.
posted by BinGregory at 1:06 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by BinGregory at 1:06 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, back in 1997 anyway, the Green Card issued was probationary: after two years you have to go back in and prove you're still married to retain the status.
posted by BinGregory at 1:08 AM on September 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by BinGregory at 1:08 AM on September 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is only my anecdote, and I may be an outlier, but my experience with USCIS was relatively straightforward and painless. My wife and I had been married for three years before applying for a green card, but we didn't have a joint bank account or lease. I prepared a huge folder of documentation, including photos of our wedding and vacations with both sides of the family, but the interviewer didn't even open it. Other than the official forms, he only wanted to see my tax transcripts and an affidavit from a friend or relative affirming our relationship. His only questions to my wife were: "I see you travelled to the US last year. Did you like it?" and "Are you a member of the Communist Party?"
posted by bradf at 1:38 AM on September 23, 2015
posted by bradf at 1:38 AM on September 23, 2015
Yeah just speculation but I bet US men bringing home foreign wives is a lower category of suspicion than foreign men marrying local women at the end of their visa term.
posted by BinGregory at 2:11 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by BinGregory at 2:11 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't do this. It is a BAD IDEA. I'm married to an Arab, so perhaps our interview process was more stringent, but we had to answer questions about what kind of toothpaste we use. Really, I think the only reason that the final interview went so well/we got approved was because I was 8 months pregnant, the baby was kicking the shit out of me and my husband couldn't help but put his hand on my belly to feel our child. I had binders and binders of supporting documentation. As someone said up thread, this is nontrivial.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 3:54 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by PorcineWithMe at 3:54 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have dear friends who have been together for 10+ years, own a home, and have a child. The foreigner in the relationship is Canadian for God's sake, and the interview was still a grueling ordeal for them.
I know this is naive, but you just earned a PhD: is it really out of the question that you could get a job to sponsor your visa instead of a sham marriage?
posted by telegraph at 4:46 AM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I know this is naive, but you just earned a PhD: is it really out of the question that you could get a job to sponsor your visa instead of a sham marriage?
posted by telegraph at 4:46 AM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
This sounds like a horrible idea, and do not deceive yourself: you are proposing to commit a crime, and while penalties beyond your deportation are unlikely if you are caught, jail time and fines for both you and this poor girl are possibilities.
I did my wife's application two year's ago. It was expensive (~$2K, and we did not hire a lawyer) and incredibly time-consuming. I just yesterday mailed a new application to remove her probationary status, something you'd have to do in two years. This will be a new test of whether or not you entered into the marriage fraudulently.
This article claims USCIS denies nearly .1% of green card applications as being fraudulent. This is a lot. Do not assume you will be able to slip one past the goalkeeper.
posted by deadweightloss at 4:48 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I did my wife's application two year's ago. It was expensive (~$2K, and we did not hire a lawyer) and incredibly time-consuming. I just yesterday mailed a new application to remove her probationary status, something you'd have to do in two years. This will be a new test of whether or not you entered into the marriage fraudulently.
This article claims USCIS denies nearly .1% of green card applications as being fraudulent. This is a lot. Do not assume you will be able to slip one past the goalkeeper.
posted by deadweightloss at 4:48 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I worked for an immigration lawyer for a couple years and handled employment and marriage cases. What you are trying to do is going to be really, really hard. It's really, really hard for couples who have been together for years and actually are in love-in love with the special snowflake kind of marriage that will keep them together forever and ever that guster4lovers mentions.
You have a PhD. That gives you options many people don't have. Look at the various employment and research based immigration statuses we have here and see if any of them might apply to you.
posted by phunniemee at 4:55 AM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
You have a PhD. That gives you options many people don't have. Look at the various employment and research based immigration statuses we have here and see if any of them might apply to you.
posted by phunniemee at 4:55 AM on September 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Getting a postdoc position/job at a hospital or university or Institute who will sponsor your visa is probably a much better option for you.
posted by emd3737 at 5:49 AM on September 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 5:49 AM on September 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Seriously guys, is it genuine fraud if two people who are romantically involved want to get married so they can continue to develop their relationship? It's either that or break up and they don't want to break up and they're willing to make a "permanent" commitment to that end way before it'd be reasonable to get married were it not an international problem. I can see why it would be "hard to prove" without years of documentation and entangled finances, but I don't think they are straight up defrauding anyone like it's a platonic friendship wedding.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:24 AM on September 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:24 AM on September 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I wish people would lay off about it being fraud. USCIS puts people in this position all the time -- here is OP's deadline to get the fuck out of the US. Vastly long distance relationships are at best Very Tough, so unless anonymous is from Tijuana or Vancouver their realistic choices are marry or break up, and they're going for it and will see what happens. Yeah, they wouldn't right now if USCIS weren't forcing the issue. That's common. biscotti and I probably would not have gotten married in 2002 without USCIS forcing itself into our relationship -- we had at the time we applied spent maybe a month actually in each other's company -- and here we are still hitched 13 years later. If this is unlikely to work or risky, the attorney they're going to talk to can tell them that.
I would suggest that not any lawyer will do; visajourney used to have a fair number of scary stories where their attorney had fucked everything up because they spend all their time doing torts and probates and suchlike. You want an AILA immigration attorney or nothing.
Assuming you end up marrying and filing AOS afterwards (instead of doing that weird I130/K1 mixup), you should probably get a joint bank account and however y'all's employment situation is get someone on someone else's health insurance, and (duh) live together, unless your attorney says otherwise. Likewise, if you don't have photos of you together on trips, you might take a vacation and get pictures of you together in front of the Grand Canyon or whatever.
If it all works out, you will still only get a two-year green card. 18 or 21 months later, you'll have to file for Removal Of Conditions, which usually boils down to mailing USCIS a bunch of paperwork saying "We're still married, see?" and getting an approval back in the mail a while later; they'll interview you if something seems squiffy (and presumably if the RNG says so).
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:03 AM on September 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
I would suggest that not any lawyer will do; visajourney used to have a fair number of scary stories where their attorney had fucked everything up because they spend all their time doing torts and probates and suchlike. You want an AILA immigration attorney or nothing.
Assuming you end up marrying and filing AOS afterwards (instead of doing that weird I130/K1 mixup), you should probably get a joint bank account and however y'all's employment situation is get someone on someone else's health insurance, and (duh) live together, unless your attorney says otherwise. Likewise, if you don't have photos of you together on trips, you might take a vacation and get pictures of you together in front of the Grand Canyon or whatever.
If it all works out, you will still only get a two-year green card. 18 or 21 months later, you'll have to file for Removal Of Conditions, which usually boils down to mailing USCIS a bunch of paperwork saying "We're still married, see?" and getting an approval back in the mail a while later; they'll interview you if something seems squiffy (and presumably if the RNG says so).
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:03 AM on September 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's a grey area, but people still get married (without immigration implications) for all sorts of reasons that you could look down your nose at; 'so that it's harder to split up' is often one of them, as is 'because the alternative is splitting up'. Calling the OP's intentions fraudulent or criminal from the outset seems way overboard and doesn't really suggest much experience of how marriage-based immigration works in practice.
But it's going to be hard, and you ought to approach it with the mentality that if the relationship ends, you'll need to leave the US or seek a different visa rather than trying to ride it out through to the removal of conditions. And yes, affidavits of support are serious business, and your GF needs to be very conscious of that.
posted by holgate at 7:07 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
But it's going to be hard, and you ought to approach it with the mentality that if the relationship ends, you'll need to leave the US or seek a different visa rather than trying to ride it out through to the removal of conditions. And yes, affidavits of support are serious business, and your GF needs to be very conscious of that.
posted by holgate at 7:07 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Or, let me be stronger here: if you haven't been in the position of having to either marry, break up, or pursue an extremely long-distance relationship because of USCIS, and are not an AILA immigration attorney or USCIS officer, you should consider that you fundamentally do not understand this position.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:08 AM on September 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:08 AM on September 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
As others have said the process is very strict. Some things you may want to think about.
I would suspect just from your lack of paperwork together in the time you have been involved it very likely won't be successful. I had known my US citizen husband 5 years before we got married, we had years of correspondence, return visits to each others countries, he knew my family & I knew his & still we almost did not have a big enough paper trail.
You also need to remember that this will only be a 2 year green card and you will have to go through it again, when they will expect even more evidence. Serious we have a mortgage/carloan/investments together type evidence.
I don't know if what you are doing would be fraud, but if you want affidavits from people that your relationship is real & as to why you are marrying etc you'll be asking them to commit fraud or lying to them.
It is not cheap to apply, I'm not sure how rich most grad students are but we are talking thousands of dollars to get to the 10 year green card stage, (medical exam, biometrics, application fees, travel expenses to interviews etc) even more if you decide to use a lawyer, & to be honest that's probably the only way you'd have a chance as they will have the best knowledge to spin what little proof you do have (and I usually suggest people to do their own applications). Oh & you'll most likely want to pay for a big old proper wedding with family & friends flying in, a quick courthouse wedding with no pomp & ceremony will make it hard to sell.
Honestly I'd suggest if you are serious, leave the country & apply for a fiance visa, that will give you the time while you apply plus another 3 months in the us to make sure before you marry.
Also for petes sake if this is a trying it on to see if we fit type marriage, make sure you both have iron clad pre nups, things get messy during a break up.
posted by wwax at 7:15 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would suspect just from your lack of paperwork together in the time you have been involved it very likely won't be successful. I had known my US citizen husband 5 years before we got married, we had years of correspondence, return visits to each others countries, he knew my family & I knew his & still we almost did not have a big enough paper trail.
You also need to remember that this will only be a 2 year green card and you will have to go through it again, when they will expect even more evidence. Serious we have a mortgage/carloan/investments together type evidence.
I don't know if what you are doing would be fraud, but if you want affidavits from people that your relationship is real & as to why you are marrying etc you'll be asking them to commit fraud or lying to them.
It is not cheap to apply, I'm not sure how rich most grad students are but we are talking thousands of dollars to get to the 10 year green card stage, (medical exam, biometrics, application fees, travel expenses to interviews etc) even more if you decide to use a lawyer, & to be honest that's probably the only way you'd have a chance as they will have the best knowledge to spin what little proof you do have (and I usually suggest people to do their own applications). Oh & you'll most likely want to pay for a big old proper wedding with family & friends flying in, a quick courthouse wedding with no pomp & ceremony will make it hard to sell.
Honestly I'd suggest if you are serious, leave the country & apply for a fiance visa, that will give you the time while you apply plus another 3 months in the us to make sure before you marry.
Also for petes sake if this is a trying it on to see if we fit type marriage, make sure you both have iron clad pre nups, things get messy during a break up.
posted by wwax at 7:15 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
OP, since you have your doctorate and are doing post-doc work, have you considered instead applying for the National Interest Waiver? NIW is NOT employment-based, so you do not need a sponsor, merely the intent to continue working in the field of national interest. Pretty much any science field can be considered in the national interest of the US - if you have a decent publication record, presentations at national/international conferences, can get recommendations from people in your field, you have a good shot.
I am not a lawyer but I worked as a legal writer in immigration law, where I primarily worked on NIW/EB-1/EB-2 and O visas. Feel free to memail if you have questions.
posted by Aubergine at 8:48 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am not a lawyer but I worked as a legal writer in immigration law, where I primarily worked on NIW/EB-1/EB-2 and O visas. Feel free to memail if you have questions.
posted by Aubergine at 8:48 AM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have a friend who did essentially this, and ended up in a huge amount of financial/legal messiness when the relationship later broke up. I don't think it would have been considered fraud (they were definitely in a "real" relationship even if they rushed things for visa purposes). The thing is, even non-visa marriages that have nothing to do with immigration purposes can still end in messy and expensive and complicated divorces. And adding the immigration stuff on top of that only adds to the potential messiness and costliness. For me, it wouldn't be worth the risk of my financial future to just see if a relationship worked. Obviously everyone has different calculations here, but it's something to weigh very carefully.
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rainbowbrite at 9:15 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
OK, hit enter too soon: the takeaway point is not that THIS IS FRAUD BAD!, and to ROU_Xenophobe's point most of us are not and have never been in this position and can't fully understand what it's like: OK.
However, the point remains that from the point of view of US immigration, you are literally exactly the kind of person who they are trying to keep from getting a marriage visa. "We're going into this with the attitude that getting married is something we're doing so I can stay in the country and is not more significant than that" from the point of view of immigration is essentially saying "this marriage is precisely and only for the purpose of getting a visa." This is exactly what they do NOT want to hear: the visa is supposed to support the marriage, not the other way around.
I'm saying all this because I think that you should tread very carefully in this process. I don't presume to judge the validity of your romantic relationship and agree that Immigration and Customs shouldn't be the arbiter of whether your relationship lasts. However, the cold hard truth is that, well, it is in this case, and I think that there's somewhat of a lack of awareness in this situation that is going to make it very complicated.
posted by andrewesque at 9:18 AM on September 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
However, the point remains that from the point of view of US immigration, you are literally exactly the kind of person who they are trying to keep from getting a marriage visa. "We're going into this with the attitude that getting married is something we're doing so I can stay in the country and is not more significant than that" from the point of view of immigration is essentially saying "this marriage is precisely and only for the purpose of getting a visa." This is exactly what they do NOT want to hear: the visa is supposed to support the marriage, not the other way around.
I'm saying all this because I think that you should tread very carefully in this process. I don't presume to judge the validity of your romantic relationship and agree that Immigration and Customs shouldn't be the arbiter of whether your relationship lasts. However, the cold hard truth is that, well, it is in this case, and I think that there's somewhat of a lack of awareness in this situation that is going to make it very complicated.
posted by andrewesque at 9:18 AM on September 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
I did basically what you are proposing to do but I wanted to be married to the person because I loved them and wanted a marriage.
I was here using the visa waiver program (from England) and met someone and we didn't want to do long distance. We wanted to be together. A week after we met we said I love you and a week after that we got engaged. (I WAS SO SMART)
2.5 years later I left him because he was a terrible abusive partner. I don't regret marrying him and moving here because I love this country and I love my life. After living here for several years my life was here and I didn't want to go back to England. Getting divorced from someone I had loved was a painful and traumatic experience and worrying about my immigration status was terrifying.
The process:
We got a lawyer as soon as we got engaged. Your lawyer is the person you need to listen to. They know the laws as well as anyone can, the law is complicated and constantly changing.
We joined back accounts, I was added to his credit cards, we had photographs, joint memberships to museums/anything possible. We had emails showing our conversations. Statements from friends who knew us both. We had a big folder of evidence. They asked us questions about each other. I changed my name to make it clear I was serious. If you say anything similar to what you say in your question, they are going to deny you. They do not fuck around. It's a huge deal.
Listen to your lawyer, do what they say, they are worth every penny they charge you.
Do everything your lawyer tells you, if you're not willing to financially merge they're going to see that as a red flag.
We got divorced but I had my conditions removed after 2 years and was granted my 10 year green card. I will be naturalizing in the next 6 months.
posted by shesbenevolent at 9:44 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was here using the visa waiver program (from England) and met someone and we didn't want to do long distance. We wanted to be together. A week after we met we said I love you and a week after that we got engaged. (I WAS SO SMART)
2.5 years later I left him because he was a terrible abusive partner. I don't regret marrying him and moving here because I love this country and I love my life. After living here for several years my life was here and I didn't want to go back to England. Getting divorced from someone I had loved was a painful and traumatic experience and worrying about my immigration status was terrifying.
The process:
We got a lawyer as soon as we got engaged. Your lawyer is the person you need to listen to. They know the laws as well as anyone can, the law is complicated and constantly changing.
We joined back accounts, I was added to his credit cards, we had photographs, joint memberships to museums/anything possible. We had emails showing our conversations. Statements from friends who knew us both. We had a big folder of evidence. They asked us questions about each other. I changed my name to make it clear I was serious. If you say anything similar to what you say in your question, they are going to deny you. They do not fuck around. It's a huge deal.
Listen to your lawyer, do what they say, they are worth every penny they charge you.
Do everything your lawyer tells you, if you're not willing to financially merge they're going to see that as a red flag.
We got divorced but I had my conditions removed after 2 years and was granted my 10 year green card. I will be naturalizing in the next 6 months.
posted by shesbenevolent at 9:44 AM on September 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I want to add, I was marrying him to stay in the country, to be with him. Not just to get to live in the US. It sounds like you've just been lucky to find someone who will marry you because you want to live here. Not the same thing.
posted by shesbenevolent at 9:58 AM on September 23, 2015
posted by shesbenevolent at 9:58 AM on September 23, 2015
We're going into this with the attitude that getting married is something we're doing so I can stay in the country and is not more significant than that.
I realize that this thread is descending into an argument, but this early response strikes me as exactly right:
Your question comes off a little flip and not realizing that you are exactly the sort of person the entire process is designed to weed out.
Regardless of whether what you're proposing is really visa fraud or not, you need to understand that comment and take it to heart. Not saying whether you're right or wrong, but that's what it is.
I do speak with the weight of personal experience. I have done this process (got my PhD in the US, got married as a postdoc) but my wife moved to Australia with me after that, and my green card interview process was basically us showing up at the consulate with our 3-year old marriage certificate and our son. Visa Journey was modestly helpful. We did not use a lawyer, but that's because doing paperwork in depth and in triplicate is in my blood.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:53 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I realize that this thread is descending into an argument, but this early response strikes me as exactly right:
Your question comes off a little flip and not realizing that you are exactly the sort of person the entire process is designed to weed out.
Regardless of whether what you're proposing is really visa fraud or not, you need to understand that comment and take it to heart. Not saying whether you're right or wrong, but that's what it is.
I do speak with the weight of personal experience. I have done this process (got my PhD in the US, got married as a postdoc) but my wife moved to Australia with me after that, and my green card interview process was basically us showing up at the consulate with our 3-year old marriage certificate and our son. Visa Journey was modestly helpful. We did not use a lawyer, but that's because doing paperwork in depth and in triplicate is in my blood.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:53 AM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
One thing you will see here and at VJ is experiences vary widely.
Our experience was not painful, we breezed through every step and had a short, easy interview. We didn't bring mountains of documentation, although we definitely prepared.
There are two things that seem to be big factors from all the VJ stories I've read:
1) Your country of citizenship. If you are from a politically sensitive country, or a poor country with lots of immigration and visa fraud, you will be scrutinized much more. So, easier to sail through if you are from England instead of Pakistan, or Japan instead of Thailand.
2) Luck of the draw on people. There are 2 main people involved: whoever reviews your packet you mail in and whoever does your interview. Some of them are relatively lax, others are incredibly detailed and picky. And especially for the interview, they can be having a good day and be friendly or be having a bad day and be rude for no reason. Very similar to, say, getting pulled over by a cop. Will they be friendly and polite and give you a warning? Or will they be immediately hostile and suspicious? To a reasonable extent this is beyond your control.
In our case, we got lucky on both counts (country and the people we dealt with), and so it was not a painful or difficult process. But others in almost exactly the same situation had tons of problems, RFDs, etc.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Our experience was not painful, we breezed through every step and had a short, easy interview. We didn't bring mountains of documentation, although we definitely prepared.
There are two things that seem to be big factors from all the VJ stories I've read:
1) Your country of citizenship. If you are from a politically sensitive country, or a poor country with lots of immigration and visa fraud, you will be scrutinized much more. So, easier to sail through if you are from England instead of Pakistan, or Japan instead of Thailand.
2) Luck of the draw on people. There are 2 main people involved: whoever reviews your packet you mail in and whoever does your interview. Some of them are relatively lax, others are incredibly detailed and picky. And especially for the interview, they can be having a good day and be friendly or be having a bad day and be rude for no reason. Very similar to, say, getting pulled over by a cop. Will they be friendly and polite and give you a warning? Or will they be immediately hostile and suspicious? To a reasonable extent this is beyond your control.
In our case, we got lucky on both counts (country and the people we dealt with), and so it was not a painful or difficult process. But others in almost exactly the same situation had tons of problems, RFDs, etc.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:16 PM on September 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have a bit of a different perspective on this. I was a B1/B2 overstay. My now husband and I were all of 20 years old when we got married (in a courthouse, with his parents and mine - so not a big wedding) and had been dating for three years. We didn't live together, so no leases or shared bills. BUT we provided a ridiculous amount of photos, and we each wrote a letter to USCIS stating how we met, what our relationship was like and our plans for the future. When interview time came, the officer initially seemed very suspicious and asked me all of the "are you associated with terrorist activities" questions in the form. I brought a scrapbook of photos, movie stubs and other trinkets and practically forced the officer to go through the entire thing because damn it I didn't spend 8 hours working on it for nothing. I think he approved us just to get me out of his office. I had to send half of my house again for the removal of conditions (this time with shared leases/tax returns/car titles etc).
If you guys don't truly love each other, I really think you'll have a hard time convincing USCIS. We were high school sweethearts and very young; on paper, we probably didn't seem like a couple that would last long. But it was painfully obvious to everyone that met us that we really wanted to build a life together. Think about this carefully - if the immigration issue, large and looming as it is, didn't exist, would you still want to marry each other?
posted by cobain_angel at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2015
If you guys don't truly love each other, I really think you'll have a hard time convincing USCIS. We were high school sweethearts and very young; on paper, we probably didn't seem like a couple that would last long. But it was painfully obvious to everyone that met us that we really wanted to build a life together. Think about this carefully - if the immigration issue, large and looming as it is, didn't exist, would you still want to marry each other?
posted by cobain_angel at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2015
To add to my earlier comment — You mentioned that your girlfriend was willing to do this anyway as a favor, even knowing you might break up. Your girlfriend, frankly, is naïve and has no idea what she'd be in for. That affidavit of support is no fucking joke. It's serious business, dude. This goes way beyond 'favor' and is firmly in the realm of 'honor debt.'
The affidavit is binding for 10 years from the date of application. She will be promising to be responsible for you financially until that 10 years is up. You don't intend on freeloading, I'm sure; however, life happens. You get hit by a car and are unable to work? Guess what, she's on the hook. Something happens at the office and you need workers' comp? Good luck with that, she's on the hook. It takes you forever to find gainful employment in the field you got your Ph.D. in? You guessed it, she's on the hook.
She needs to read the fine print about the affidavit of support's sponsor responsibilities:
This is why I said above that you really should not do this unless you're absolutely sure you want to stay together. Sure, if all the planets line up right, it's fine and will never be invoked. But if things go south, it can be a massive and potentially life-ruining financial commitment that's binding for a decade. Do you really want to saddle her with that?
posted by culfinglin at 3:34 PM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
The affidavit is binding for 10 years from the date of application. She will be promising to be responsible for you financially until that 10 years is up. You don't intend on freeloading, I'm sure; however, life happens. You get hit by a car and are unable to work? Guess what, she's on the hook. Something happens at the office and you need workers' comp? Good luck with that, she's on the hook. It takes you forever to find gainful employment in the field you got your Ph.D. in? You guessed it, she's on the hook.
She needs to read the fine print about the affidavit of support's sponsor responsibilities:
Responsibilities as a SponsorRead that again: Divorce does NOT end her sponsorship obligation. That affidavit overrides pretty much all other financial arrangements you might make upon splitting up. She will be shackled to you financially for 10 long years if this relationship goes south, unlike a normal divorce. Ask me how I know!
When you sign the affidavit of support, you accept legal responsibility for financially supporting the sponsored immigrant(s) generally until they become U.S. citizens or can be credited with 40 quarters of work. Your obligation also ends if you or the individual sponsored dies or if the individual sponsored ceases to be a permanent resident and departs the United States.
Note: Divorce does NOT end the sponsorship obligation.
If the individual you sponsored receives any "means-tested public benefits," you are responsible for repaying the cost of those benefits to the agency that provided them. If you do not repay the debt, the agency can sue you in court to get the money owed. Any joint sponsors or household members whose income is used to meet the minimum income requirements are also legally responsible for financially supporting the sponsored immigrant.
This is why I said above that you really should not do this unless you're absolutely sure you want to stay together. Sure, if all the planets line up right, it's fine and will never be invoked. But if things go south, it can be a massive and potentially life-ruining financial commitment that's binding for a decade. Do you really want to saddle her with that?
posted by culfinglin at 3:34 PM on September 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
ROU_Xenophobe I have indeed been in that position. We had only been dating a few months, it was shortly after 9/11, he was from a country that was held in special suspicion. I told him I could not marry him. We broke up, he got a coworker to marry him for money, they went through an elaborate process of faking a long-term relationship, and kept the marriage for 3 years before divorcing. He is still in the country and married (for real) to someone else. It totally worked. I still think it's a pretty horrible idea for the OP.
posted by celtalitha at 7:50 PM on September 23, 2015
posted by celtalitha at 7:50 PM on September 23, 2015
The friend I know who had a very easy time getting her (previously undocumented) husband a passport was in a situation where she was pretty financially set and he was not (and it was a courthouse wedding with just the one witness/guest). I was told that is actually less suspicious than the other way around. If you have a wealthy foreign national marrying a poor American, suspicion arises that the American is being financially compensated for the marriage.
I am not an immigration lawyer though I have some friends who are. Immigration lawyers have ethical obligations too and they cannot help you perpetrate a fraud. If you want to use the help of a lawyer, which you should, you cannot present as a sham marriage for the sake of a green card.
A couple of things to think about:
In a way, there is no such thing as a green card marriage. If you marry, you will be married to each other, with all the legal and financial obligations and vulnerabilities that entails. For example, if she got pregnant by someone else, you would be presumed the father and be on the hook for child support unless you took prompt steps to avoid that. If you got married, you wouldn't be sham married, you'd be really and truly married. If you're ready to make that act of trust and commitment with her (and it really is one) - could you in good conscience think of it as and speak about it as a true marriage?
The legal definition of marriage doesn't refer to 'true love.' (The possibility of) divorce is baked in, so it doesn't even refer to lifelong irrevocable romantic commitment. Immigration officials are used to dealing with a wider variety of marriage than Western popular culture tends to focus on, including arranged marriages where the couple barely knows each other. I think it would behoove you to do some research and thinking about what marriage means both to the DHS and to you, and about whether you (and she) can square it in your mind(s). Until you get there, you risk turning off any lawyer you go to for help (not that they would 'report' you, but that they couldn't work for you). So it might be worth looking up a couple of lawyers.
I have heard horror stories and close calls, and this is not a thing I would consider doing unless you truly deeply trust one another.
posted by Salamandrous at 11:31 AM on September 24, 2015
I am not an immigration lawyer though I have some friends who are. Immigration lawyers have ethical obligations too and they cannot help you perpetrate a fraud. If you want to use the help of a lawyer, which you should, you cannot present as a sham marriage for the sake of a green card.
A couple of things to think about:
In a way, there is no such thing as a green card marriage. If you marry, you will be married to each other, with all the legal and financial obligations and vulnerabilities that entails. For example, if she got pregnant by someone else, you would be presumed the father and be on the hook for child support unless you took prompt steps to avoid that. If you got married, you wouldn't be sham married, you'd be really and truly married. If you're ready to make that act of trust and commitment with her (and it really is one) - could you in good conscience think of it as and speak about it as a true marriage?
The legal definition of marriage doesn't refer to 'true love.' (The possibility of) divorce is baked in, so it doesn't even refer to lifelong irrevocable romantic commitment. Immigration officials are used to dealing with a wider variety of marriage than Western popular culture tends to focus on, including arranged marriages where the couple barely knows each other. I think it would behoove you to do some research and thinking about what marriage means both to the DHS and to you, and about whether you (and she) can square it in your mind(s). Until you get there, you risk turning off any lawyer you go to for help (not that they would 'report' you, but that they couldn't work for you). So it might be worth looking up a couple of lawyers.
I have heard horror stories and close calls, and this is not a thing I would consider doing unless you truly deeply trust one another.
posted by Salamandrous at 11:31 AM on September 24, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
The things that were of interest in my/my ex's case were: 1) having a "real" wedding (i.e. more than registry office - they are BIG on that!) with both sides of the family represented, 2) having pictures of ourselves together in multiple different places over several months (we had only been together two months when we started the process, and he lived overseas until the visa went through - so we never lived together), and 3) having statements from family members and friends.
Also - PLEASE NEVER SAY what you said here about not being sure about being together forever at ANY point in the process. As far as immigration is concerned, your love is a special snowflake that will last forever. Seriously. Make sure that comes through in all your information.
Feel free to memail me if you have questions I can help answer.
posted by guster4lovers at 9:16 PM on September 22, 2015 [12 favorites]