How do I, as a guy, get emotionally fulfilling friendships with guys?
August 1, 2015 10:17 PM Subscribe
I didn't even realize this was something I wanted until I realized all the women in my life (mom, sister, and the new awesome girlfriend) all nearly simultaneously (but independently) kinda got sad about me not having any friends. After thinking about it, that got me bummed too.
At first I felt defensive, I'm good with people and things are looking up romance wise... but I do wish I had friends. Always have, really. But honestly, when you're outta college how do guys even meet other guys? And when I do talk to guys it usually doesn't feel like we're actually talking, we just make small talk and DO things. So what's a dude to do?
Background - I'm 24, my job is mostly working with kids and older women. Met my current girlfriend through online dating because while I love one on one socializing and do well with it, group dynamics frustrate me because of all the posturing, insincerity, etc. Always had trouble getting on with "the guys" growing up - don't like sports, beer, or super nerdy table top role playing or whatever. I like writing, camping, and the usual lazy consumption of Internet, TV, and video games. What I really like is doing new things and talking to someone I trust.
I crave emotional intimacy and my favorite conversations are ones where I open up and feel a bit vulnerable. Obviously, that shit usually isn't advisable with guys, especially since I live in a conservative and religious southern area of the USA. I get on well with women, but my introverted nature, lack of things in common, and weird romantic/sexual tension usually makes female friendships fizzle. Can't blame them though - like many of the men I know, including my father, I haven't made friendship a priority because it seemed unnecessary and, to an extent, feminine and weak. My very conventional dream has always been to be a good husband and perhaps eventually a good father to a loving family - and I always thought that would be all I need. But more and more I am hearing from the people I value in life that thinking like that is both unhealthy and selfish to this hypothetical family because they would have to bear being my only emotional outlet.
So... How do I make friends? How do I find guys I can be "me" with? How do I take the risk in reaching out for friendship when that can mean seeming less manly and losing status in social situations? And how do I value and help the friendship grow when I haven't done that shit since middle school?
At first I felt defensive, I'm good with people and things are looking up romance wise... but I do wish I had friends. Always have, really. But honestly, when you're outta college how do guys even meet other guys? And when I do talk to guys it usually doesn't feel like we're actually talking, we just make small talk and DO things. So what's a dude to do?
Background - I'm 24, my job is mostly working with kids and older women. Met my current girlfriend through online dating because while I love one on one socializing and do well with it, group dynamics frustrate me because of all the posturing, insincerity, etc. Always had trouble getting on with "the guys" growing up - don't like sports, beer, or super nerdy table top role playing or whatever. I like writing, camping, and the usual lazy consumption of Internet, TV, and video games. What I really like is doing new things and talking to someone I trust.
I crave emotional intimacy and my favorite conversations are ones where I open up and feel a bit vulnerable. Obviously, that shit usually isn't advisable with guys, especially since I live in a conservative and religious southern area of the USA. I get on well with women, but my introverted nature, lack of things in common, and weird romantic/sexual tension usually makes female friendships fizzle. Can't blame them though - like many of the men I know, including my father, I haven't made friendship a priority because it seemed unnecessary and, to an extent, feminine and weak. My very conventional dream has always been to be a good husband and perhaps eventually a good father to a loving family - and I always thought that would be all I need. But more and more I am hearing from the people I value in life that thinking like that is both unhealthy and selfish to this hypothetical family because they would have to bear being my only emotional outlet.
So... How do I make friends? How do I find guys I can be "me" with? How do I take the risk in reaching out for friendship when that can mean seeming less manly and losing status in social situations? And how do I value and help the friendship grow when I haven't done that shit since middle school?
You say what your interests aren't (sports, roleplaying, etc) - but not what they are.
Most friendships are formed through shared interests. If you don't have any, it's going to be difficult to meet people and start conversations.
posted by dvrmmr at 4:46 AM on August 2, 2015
Most friendships are formed through shared interests. If you don't have any, it's going to be difficult to meet people and start conversations.
posted by dvrmmr at 4:46 AM on August 2, 2015
You say what your interests aren't (sports, roleplaying, etc) - but not what they are.
Actually, he did share his interests:
I like writing, camping, and the usual lazy consumption of Internet, TV, and video games.
OP, I don't think making friends is necessarily a gender-specific thing. In general I think it becomes harder to make friends as you grow older, just because we start prioritizing differently and aren't exposed to as many situations in which making friends is somewhat expected (like college/uni).
I think you should examine some of your gendered thinking in general, such as that making friends isn't "manly" or is status-endangering. This is probably holding you back in a big way, and I don't think it is at all the case or that everyone feels that way, even in the conservative southern US (which is where I'm from, too BTW).
The way to make friends with guys is the same as making friends with anyone - you have to make it a priority, set aside time for it and keep working at it. Don't be afraid to chat with coworkers, go to events that interest you, volunteer, or join local interest groups (e.g. for camping, hiking, writer's workshops, etc.) and be relaxed and approachable. Good luck!
posted by ladybird at 5:29 AM on August 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Actually, he did share his interests:
I like writing, camping, and the usual lazy consumption of Internet, TV, and video games.
OP, I don't think making friends is necessarily a gender-specific thing. In general I think it becomes harder to make friends as you grow older, just because we start prioritizing differently and aren't exposed to as many situations in which making friends is somewhat expected (like college/uni).
I think you should examine some of your gendered thinking in general, such as that making friends isn't "manly" or is status-endangering. This is probably holding you back in a big way, and I don't think it is at all the case or that everyone feels that way, even in the conservative southern US (which is where I'm from, too BTW).
The way to make friends with guys is the same as making friends with anyone - you have to make it a priority, set aside time for it and keep working at it. Don't be afraid to chat with coworkers, go to events that interest you, volunteer, or join local interest groups (e.g. for camping, hiking, writer's workshops, etc.) and be relaxed and approachable. Good luck!
posted by ladybird at 5:29 AM on August 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
An admittedly highly social guy I know who has a lot of male friends and is always planning things to do with them met some of them through his hobbies (hosting radio/playing in bands), through his work, even on the bus, and he maintained a few friendships from college.
It's a numbers game, plenty of people are not open to making new friends but some are so you keep putting yourself out there, and be open when other people are friendly. Ask to exchange numbers, suggest getting together for brunch or an event sometime. I'm female and I've had women I meet at events/parties/through friends just say "I want to be your friend, please call/email me soon" and then follow up by asking to grab coffee or go to an event together, there's no magic to it but it can be work, when everyone's working it's not easy to find the time, and once people are getting married and having kids it's even harder but it's worthwhile.
My suggestions:
1. Is there certain music you're into that you could follow locally or by going to concerts? Find things you truly enjoy doing and get to know the people out at the events, most people are nice and will not treat you like a freak for saying hi and making small talk. Yes it can be cliquey and there can be posturing especially at your age but there are undoubtedly great people out too and if you can care less about what the immature people think you can still have a good time.
2. Can you and your girlfriend start hosting get-togethers, like casual parties, or potlucks where everyone is welcome (e.g. friends of friends)? Some of my best friends started as friend's friends/acquaintances/partners, and it's great as a couple to make friends you can do things with.
3. Do you use social media like twitter or instagram? If you're not averse to it it is how a lot of people your age are socializing between events and it may skew to people who are more your style re: writing and introspecting.
Finally I get the wanting emotional closeness but most friendships start with small talk and doing things, it's just like dating, it takes time for intimacy to develop. The attitude to have when socializing is being yourself (so not hiding your own interests/opinions when they're relevant), and being interested in other people's lives (asking questions, not just talking about yourself).
This link has some suggestions: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/10/28/how-to-make-friends/
posted by lafemma at 6:24 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's a numbers game, plenty of people are not open to making new friends but some are so you keep putting yourself out there, and be open when other people are friendly. Ask to exchange numbers, suggest getting together for brunch or an event sometime. I'm female and I've had women I meet at events/parties/through friends just say "I want to be your friend, please call/email me soon" and then follow up by asking to grab coffee or go to an event together, there's no magic to it but it can be work, when everyone's working it's not easy to find the time, and once people are getting married and having kids it's even harder but it's worthwhile.
My suggestions:
1. Is there certain music you're into that you could follow locally or by going to concerts? Find things you truly enjoy doing and get to know the people out at the events, most people are nice and will not treat you like a freak for saying hi and making small talk. Yes it can be cliquey and there can be posturing especially at your age but there are undoubtedly great people out too and if you can care less about what the immature people think you can still have a good time.
2. Can you and your girlfriend start hosting get-togethers, like casual parties, or potlucks where everyone is welcome (e.g. friends of friends)? Some of my best friends started as friend's friends/acquaintances/partners, and it's great as a couple to make friends you can do things with.
3. Do you use social media like twitter or instagram? If you're not averse to it it is how a lot of people your age are socializing between events and it may skew to people who are more your style re: writing and introspecting.
Finally I get the wanting emotional closeness but most friendships start with small talk and doing things, it's just like dating, it takes time for intimacy to develop. The attitude to have when socializing is being yourself (so not hiding your own interests/opinions when they're relevant), and being interested in other people's lives (asking questions, not just talking about yourself).
This link has some suggestions: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2008/10/28/how-to-make-friends/
posted by lafemma at 6:24 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
2 books spring to mind that have helped me clarify my thoughts on this subject: Daring Greatly by Brené Brown (TED Talk) and Man Up by Carlos Andres Gomez.
It's different for men.
I think a large part of the problem that men face when dealing with creating friendships is the matter of connection. We're taught from an early age to not show emotion, and especially not to show fear and vulnerability. Anger is OK, as is rage, but crying at anything other than a baby being born, a dog dying or a noble act of heroism is the worst thing a man can do. But without emotion, without the ability to empathise and feel the emotions of another person, we can't connect to them.
Toxic Masculinity tells us that we don't need emotions, that we should actively fight against them. This in turn leads to a lack of empathy which leads to seeing everyone else as either predator or prey. The idea that a man can form an emotional connection to another man is antithetical to toxic masculinity, which is unfortunately the default in a lot of societies. Working as part of a group is acceptable, in things such as a sports team where everyone benefits from winning, but that's often the only time that the human need to belong is allowed for men. Gangs are another form of this.
An offshoot of this being part of a group concept is the need to conform to what the group has decided is acceptable, which is often really constraining. Toxic masculinity says that there is only one way to be a man, and that is to fight and fuck. A sports team playing against another could be construed as a form of fighting, or at the least, seeking to win. Any outsiders are often violently excluded, because having a strongly visible Other increases the visibility of the Insider. "We are like this, those freaks over there are like that. We are not at all like that." Exclusion is a very powerful social tool (see solitary confinement/being sent to Coventry), so insiders will often conform to simply fit in and get along. What happens next is a very constrained insider gene pool, where unusual traits are selected against.
It takes a lot of courage to stand against the zeitgeist of toxic masculinity. A lot of men won't engage in connection-seeking behaviour because they're scared of the repercussions, which can often be violent. When you don't have the emotional skills to form friendships, it can be almost impossible to create new ones so you hold very closely to those that you have and do your best to fit into the mould of [whatever the current group has decreed is acceptable]. If you have the skills to create new friendships, it becomes so much easier. Especially if you know that individuals you would like to befriend are likely to respond positively, or at the least not negatively, towards your display of interest. For some men, being friendly towards other men is taken as a sign of sexual interest, which can have very negative repercussions. Simply being around other men won't be enough to forge the kinds of connections you're looking for.
Ms Brown says something in her book about vulnerability being the last thing I want to show, but the first thing I look for in another person. Showing your vulnerability can be a pretty risky strategy, but with big risk can sometimes come big rewards. I think there are a lot more guys out there than is generally thought who want to break out of toxic masculinity, but they're too scared to be an outsider. Being an outsider is pretty scary, after all. But if you can take that stand and show yourself and be vulnerable, I think a lot of guys would respond positively to that. I'm not suggesting that you walk around crying, but saying that you have a problem and you need some help is a way of showing that you don't actually have it all together The Way A Man Should.
I think the best way to find guys you can be you with is to just be you. It's easier, a lot of the time, to slip into the mould of insider and squash yourself into the shape that a group has decreed. Being yourself means you don't get to do that, and that's vulnerable. Some guys will like you-as-you, and some won't. If you want people to know you, you have to tell them who you are. Those who stick around have self-selected for friendship with you. Also, "status" is toxic. It's patriarchal bullshit. It's another aspect of toxic masculinity. The more status you have, the further inside the group you are and the less likely you are to be an Outsider. The thing is, unless you want to be a mindless automaton that follows the will of the group, you're always going to be of lower status. There's nothing so challenging and dangerous to a group as someone who refuses to play by the rules. Whether or not the fact that someone isn't a team player is a good or bad thing depends on perspective, not some final arbiter's decision. A group perceiving you as having low status can sometimes be a good thing, particularly if you don't want to be part of that group.
I think that writing this question would be a difficult thing for a lot of men to do. It's admitting that there is a problem AND that you need some help fixing it, two things that toxic masculinity teaches us are things that just don't happen and if they do, you're not a man, you're a [insert slur of your choice here]. Take more steps like this in your daily life - tell your friends you want to meet some new people. Get a game night going and ask three friends to each bring a friend with them. Be the organiser, so that people just have to turn up with snacks and have a good time. Be open with people. When they ask you how it's going, say you've had a rough week at work but that you've been looking forward to playing Monopoly all week. Don't say everything has been fine, because people can't connect with that. A shared experience is a great way to bond. Let them know that you're glad that they're there. Basically, be more "you" and less "socially permitted you". Don't overegg the pudding, though. Make an overture, such as inviting your Monopoly group out for pizza, but if people don't pick it up, don't throw it at them. A group having a focus is useful for cohesion, but having a little dissent can be healthy too.
Lots of guys, you and I included, have been marinated in toxic masculinity and the patriarchy since birth. Breaking out of that won't happen overnight. You'll likely meet a lot of resistance, but I bet there are more men out there who want connection with other men than is commonly thought. Good luck.
posted by Solomon at 7:02 AM on August 2, 2015 [17 favorites]
It's different for men.
I think a large part of the problem that men face when dealing with creating friendships is the matter of connection. We're taught from an early age to not show emotion, and especially not to show fear and vulnerability. Anger is OK, as is rage, but crying at anything other than a baby being born, a dog dying or a noble act of heroism is the worst thing a man can do. But without emotion, without the ability to empathise and feel the emotions of another person, we can't connect to them.
Toxic Masculinity tells us that we don't need emotions, that we should actively fight against them. This in turn leads to a lack of empathy which leads to seeing everyone else as either predator or prey. The idea that a man can form an emotional connection to another man is antithetical to toxic masculinity, which is unfortunately the default in a lot of societies. Working as part of a group is acceptable, in things such as a sports team where everyone benefits from winning, but that's often the only time that the human need to belong is allowed for men. Gangs are another form of this.
An offshoot of this being part of a group concept is the need to conform to what the group has decided is acceptable, which is often really constraining. Toxic masculinity says that there is only one way to be a man, and that is to fight and fuck. A sports team playing against another could be construed as a form of fighting, or at the least, seeking to win. Any outsiders are often violently excluded, because having a strongly visible Other increases the visibility of the Insider. "We are like this, those freaks over there are like that. We are not at all like that." Exclusion is a very powerful social tool (see solitary confinement/being sent to Coventry), so insiders will often conform to simply fit in and get along. What happens next is a very constrained insider gene pool, where unusual traits are selected against.
It takes a lot of courage to stand against the zeitgeist of toxic masculinity. A lot of men won't engage in connection-seeking behaviour because they're scared of the repercussions, which can often be violent. When you don't have the emotional skills to form friendships, it can be almost impossible to create new ones so you hold very closely to those that you have and do your best to fit into the mould of [whatever the current group has decreed is acceptable]. If you have the skills to create new friendships, it becomes so much easier. Especially if you know that individuals you would like to befriend are likely to respond positively, or at the least not negatively, towards your display of interest. For some men, being friendly towards other men is taken as a sign of sexual interest, which can have very negative repercussions. Simply being around other men won't be enough to forge the kinds of connections you're looking for.
Ms Brown says something in her book about vulnerability being the last thing I want to show, but the first thing I look for in another person. Showing your vulnerability can be a pretty risky strategy, but with big risk can sometimes come big rewards. I think there are a lot more guys out there than is generally thought who want to break out of toxic masculinity, but they're too scared to be an outsider. Being an outsider is pretty scary, after all. But if you can take that stand and show yourself and be vulnerable, I think a lot of guys would respond positively to that. I'm not suggesting that you walk around crying, but saying that you have a problem and you need some help is a way of showing that you don't actually have it all together The Way A Man Should.
I think the best way to find guys you can be you with is to just be you. It's easier, a lot of the time, to slip into the mould of insider and squash yourself into the shape that a group has decreed. Being yourself means you don't get to do that, and that's vulnerable. Some guys will like you-as-you, and some won't. If you want people to know you, you have to tell them who you are. Those who stick around have self-selected for friendship with you. Also, "status" is toxic. It's patriarchal bullshit. It's another aspect of toxic masculinity. The more status you have, the further inside the group you are and the less likely you are to be an Outsider. The thing is, unless you want to be a mindless automaton that follows the will of the group, you're always going to be of lower status. There's nothing so challenging and dangerous to a group as someone who refuses to play by the rules. Whether or not the fact that someone isn't a team player is a good or bad thing depends on perspective, not some final arbiter's decision. A group perceiving you as having low status can sometimes be a good thing, particularly if you don't want to be part of that group.
I think that writing this question would be a difficult thing for a lot of men to do. It's admitting that there is a problem AND that you need some help fixing it, two things that toxic masculinity teaches us are things that just don't happen and if they do, you're not a man, you're a [insert slur of your choice here]. Take more steps like this in your daily life - tell your friends you want to meet some new people. Get a game night going and ask three friends to each bring a friend with them. Be the organiser, so that people just have to turn up with snacks and have a good time. Be open with people. When they ask you how it's going, say you've had a rough week at work but that you've been looking forward to playing Monopoly all week. Don't say everything has been fine, because people can't connect with that. A shared experience is a great way to bond. Let them know that you're glad that they're there. Basically, be more "you" and less "socially permitted you". Don't overegg the pudding, though. Make an overture, such as inviting your Monopoly group out for pizza, but if people don't pick it up, don't throw it at them. A group having a focus is useful for cohesion, but having a little dissent can be healthy too.
Lots of guys, you and I included, have been marinated in toxic masculinity and the patriarchy since birth. Breaking out of that won't happen overnight. You'll likely meet a lot of resistance, but I bet there are more men out there who want connection with other men than is commonly thought. Good luck.
posted by Solomon at 7:02 AM on August 2, 2015 [17 favorites]
Venues that may facilitate this kind of friendship: writing groups (depending on the format; check Meetup.com), language classes (I've been in some great mixed-gender study groups that created friendships), Unitarian Universalist/humanist/other spiritual or religious groups (which usually have interest groups, too).
posted by wintersweet at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2015
posted by wintersweet at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2015
Second joining a group! Whatever it is. That's my go-to when I need more friends. A beer league or co-ed softball team. A hiking meetup. You could even do co-ed stuff with your girlfriend and meet other couples.
Also, this is a shot in the dark, but if you're religious at all then joining a men's group is a surefire way to make friends. My guy friends got a lot out of those groups back in the day. But of course that's only if you're religious.
The intimacy that you are looking for takes a bit of time and cultivation. You won't meet someone and be sharing your innermost thoughts right off the bat. It takes a while to form that connection. Basically making the friends you're looking for involves being a bit proactive in showing the person you want their company.
I also SUPER second Brene Brown's "Daring Greatly".
Another book that you might be interested in is "Intimate Connections" by David Burns. It's pretty dated and it's kind of cheesy, but if you can get past that it's quite helpful. The book hasn't been updated in a million years and I didn't want to be seen reading it, but it helps you unpack all these assumptions about friendship and connection that you wrote about in your post, and helps you combat them in order to form healthy relationships and friendships.
posted by christiehawk at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, this is a shot in the dark, but if you're religious at all then joining a men's group is a surefire way to make friends. My guy friends got a lot out of those groups back in the day. But of course that's only if you're religious.
The intimacy that you are looking for takes a bit of time and cultivation. You won't meet someone and be sharing your innermost thoughts right off the bat. It takes a while to form that connection. Basically making the friends you're looking for involves being a bit proactive in showing the person you want their company.
I also SUPER second Brene Brown's "Daring Greatly".
Another book that you might be interested in is "Intimate Connections" by David Burns. It's pretty dated and it's kind of cheesy, but if you can get past that it's quite helpful. The book hasn't been updated in a million years and I didn't want to be seen reading it, but it helps you unpack all these assumptions about friendship and connection that you wrote about in your post, and helps you combat them in order to form healthy relationships and friendships.
posted by christiehawk at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
OH! And another book I forgot - "How To Win Friends And Influence People" is a great book on making connections with other people and how to be charismatic.
posted by christiehawk at 10:16 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by christiehawk at 10:16 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just because you don't like "sports" in the kid sense (soccer, baseball, football) doesn't mean that you won't really enjoy grown-up sports -- golf, tennis, rowing, squash, sailing, etc. A bonus is that all of these sports are terrific settings to socialize with other dudes in a low-intensity fashion. No one is seeking to make best friends at a county club locker room but over time you do make lots of friendly acquaintances and over longer periods of time real friendships develop. These are also environments where age, ideological or cultural differences are simply less important, if you find that to be a barrier.
posted by MattD at 12:47 PM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 12:47 PM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
For lots of people (especially guys?), having friends is largely having people you do stuff with. Fishing buddies, drinking buddies, etc. You need to do things with people (probably through group activities) until one or two of them turn into actual friends you see regardless of group activities.
And the absolute best way to get the kind of potential friends you want into your group is to form that group. Start a band, a very specific movie club, a writing club, whatever. It's your club, you define it, attract members, set the agenda. Start online and move to local meetings. Make sure online people know that it's a local group that is intended to start meeting in the flesh, though I guess it couldn't hurt to have people in distant places join the online group discussions.
posted by pracowity at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2015
And the absolute best way to get the kind of potential friends you want into your group is to form that group. Start a band, a very specific movie club, a writing club, whatever. It's your club, you define it, attract members, set the agenda. Start online and move to local meetings. Make sure online people know that it's a local group that is intended to start meeting in the flesh, though I guess it couldn't hurt to have people in distant places join the online group discussions.
posted by pracowity at 3:26 PM on August 2, 2015
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