Will I get water up my nose? I hate that.
December 2, 2005 10:53 AM Subscribe
How can I try out this "waterboarding" I've heard so much about?
I am very curious to know what the sensation of this particular torture-lite practice is like. Being told it is truly terrifying is not really all that immediate; obviously one of the strengths behind this method is that the descriptions of it come across as pretty dry.
I have read Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People: The Dynamics of Torture, where the author discusses how traumatic some "torture lite" techniques can be (sensory deprivation, prolonged standing), so I am not trying to be glib here. But I remain curious.
So a few questions: Can this be done safely? If so, how?
And what is the exact technique? (There seem to be so many vague and conflicting reports). Is the efficacy of the method compromised by the fact that I would be able to "opt out" when it became overwhelming?
Also, I'm no activist, but I think that a "waterboarding" booth at a college fair, (complete with consent forms and medical personnel on hand) could be a powerful demonstration tool. What would go into designing this?
I am very curious to know what the sensation of this particular torture-lite practice is like. Being told it is truly terrifying is not really all that immediate; obviously one of the strengths behind this method is that the descriptions of it come across as pretty dry.
I have read Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People: The Dynamics of Torture, where the author discusses how traumatic some "torture lite" techniques can be (sensory deprivation, prolonged standing), so I am not trying to be glib here. But I remain curious.
So a few questions: Can this be done safely? If so, how?
And what is the exact technique? (There seem to be so many vague and conflicting reports). Is the efficacy of the method compromised by the fact that I would be able to "opt out" when it became overwhelming?
Also, I'm no activist, but I think that a "waterboarding" booth at a college fair, (complete with consent forms and medical personnel on hand) could be a powerful demonstration tool. What would go into designing this?
If you search the archives of Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, I'm sure you can find some first-person accounts.
I found out about fake execution, another "torture-lite" technique which causes no lasting physical harm but is actually extremely traumatic, through reading Ken Saro-Wiwa's book A Month and Day. Saro-Wiwa describes the absolute horror at believing you are about to be killed. I think the reason waterboarding constitutes torture is for the same reason -- fear of imminent death. So no, I don't think you could replicate the experience.
(Nov. 10 was the 10th anniversary of Saro-Wiwa's actual execution by the Nigerian gov't)
posted by footnote at 11:18 AM on December 2, 2005
I found out about fake execution, another "torture-lite" technique which causes no lasting physical harm but is actually extremely traumatic, through reading Ken Saro-Wiwa's book A Month and Day. Saro-Wiwa describes the absolute horror at believing you are about to be killed. I think the reason waterboarding constitutes torture is for the same reason -- fear of imminent death. So no, I don't think you could replicate the experience.
(Nov. 10 was the 10th anniversary of Saro-Wiwa's actual execution by the Nigerian gov't)
posted by footnote at 11:18 AM on December 2, 2005
So no, I don't think you could replicate the experience.
I disagree. I think a big part of the experience is the physical feeling of imminent asphyxiation: the inability to get enough air. Whether or not you fear that you're going to be executed, that's a very distressing sensation.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:24 AM on December 2, 2005
I disagree. I think a big part of the experience is the physical feeling of imminent asphyxiation: the inability to get enough air. Whether or not you fear that you're going to be executed, that's a very distressing sensation.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:24 AM on December 2, 2005
But what's the point, mr_roboto, of experiencing it outside the confines of actually being tortured?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:30 AM on December 2, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:30 AM on December 2, 2005 [1 favorite]
You are strapped to a see-sawing board so that you are unable to move. The board is then tilted into a tub or trough of water so that your head is underwater.
This is done at apparently-random intervals so that you don't have time to prepare by holding your breath. You might be hit in the stomach right before submersion to force the air out of your lungs.
You're held there for long enough that you start really believing they will drown you, and you start struggling wildly trying to get free. Then they let you up for a few seconds to let you catch your breath and see if you're ready to confess.
In the absence of a see-saw or a tub of water, torturers might use a high pressure hose pointed at the nostrils to achieve the same effect.
This is what they do in SERE school. Obviously there are as many variations as human imagination might allow.
Special Forces soldiers and Marines are routinely -- according to some, almost always -- broken by this and confess to imaginary crimes in order to get the instructors to stop.
It's pretty unsafe, but part of the reason people break and confess to anything at all under this torture technique is that they have a real, actual, bona fide belief that they are going to die unless they do.
If you were to emulate this somehow, I would strongly suggest having someone with CPR experience standing by, have the tortured person be physically fit with no history of heart ailments, and have a signed waiver. It is not pretty and it's not fun.
posted by felix at 11:34 AM on December 2, 2005
This is done at apparently-random intervals so that you don't have time to prepare by holding your breath. You might be hit in the stomach right before submersion to force the air out of your lungs.
You're held there for long enough that you start really believing they will drown you, and you start struggling wildly trying to get free. Then they let you up for a few seconds to let you catch your breath and see if you're ready to confess.
In the absence of a see-saw or a tub of water, torturers might use a high pressure hose pointed at the nostrils to achieve the same effect.
This is what they do in SERE school. Obviously there are as many variations as human imagination might allow.
Special Forces soldiers and Marines are routinely -- according to some, almost always -- broken by this and confess to imaginary crimes in order to get the instructors to stop.
It's pretty unsafe, but part of the reason people break and confess to anything at all under this torture technique is that they have a real, actual, bona fide belief that they are going to die unless they do.
If you were to emulate this somehow, I would strongly suggest having someone with CPR experience standing by, have the tortured person be physically fit with no history of heart ailments, and have a signed waiver. It is not pretty and it's not fun.
posted by felix at 11:34 AM on December 2, 2005
I agree that you could replicate some of the same sensations, but as long as you still know that you're not going to be killed, it wouldn't be the same experience. Perhaps at the very end the substance of the panic would be the same, but the complete spectrum would be very different.
Also, some people who have written on the subject think that the the exercise of institutionalized power over the body is an essential component differentiating torture from mere violence.
posted by footnote at 11:42 AM on December 2, 2005
Also, some people who have written on the subject think that the the exercise of institutionalized power over the body is an essential component differentiating torture from mere violence.
posted by footnote at 11:42 AM on December 2, 2005
as long as you still know that you're not going to be killed, it wouldn't be the same experience
Exactly. Forgive me, but this seems like a cheap thrill (though a fairly elaborate and painful one); if you try it, you won't come away with any understanding of what it's actually like to go through the real thing (apart from a comparatively trivial physical sensation) and you run the risk of allowing yourself a morally indefensible (in fact, repugnant) sense of "been there, done that."
If you're interested in what great writers who were almost executed had to say about it (not, of course, that their experience matters more, but they're presumably able to express it better), you might want to read this essay by Mark Slouka, in which he discusses accounts by Dostoevsky and Seifert.
posted by languagehat at 12:02 PM on December 2, 2005
Exactly. Forgive me, but this seems like a cheap thrill (though a fairly elaborate and painful one); if you try it, you won't come away with any understanding of what it's actually like to go through the real thing (apart from a comparatively trivial physical sensation) and you run the risk of allowing yourself a morally indefensible (in fact, repugnant) sense of "been there, done that."
If you're interested in what great writers who were almost executed had to say about it (not, of course, that their experience matters more, but they're presumably able to express it better), you might want to read this essay by Mark Slouka, in which he discusses accounts by Dostoevsky and Seifert.
posted by languagehat at 12:02 PM on December 2, 2005
Felix, I don't think you're always tilted into a tub of water. The description I read in the New Yorker's story about Guantanamo described being tilted, head down, and then having somone pour water into your nose. The victim then can't inhale because the body so strongly resists opening the nasal passages.
Anyway, it's disgusting to even think about. i'd never want to try it - besides which, there is a real risk of inhaling water into the lungs.
posted by Miko at 12:18 PM on December 2, 2005
Anyway, it's disgusting to even think about. i'd never want to try it - besides which, there is a real risk of inhaling water into the lungs.
posted by Miko at 12:18 PM on December 2, 2005
Said article.. Says:
In the version used in the Navy’s SERE training program, the affiliate said, the student is bound to an inclined board, his feet higher than his head. A stream of water is then slowly poured up his nose.
posted by Miko at 12:20 PM on December 2, 2005
In the version used in the Navy’s SERE training program, the affiliate said, the student is bound to an inclined board, his feet higher than his head. A stream of water is then slowly poured up his nose.
posted by Miko at 12:20 PM on December 2, 2005
I don't think you can do this at home (or a college fair).
The nearest you can safely get is to go put your head in a bath of cold water until you can't possibly stand it for another second, and I don't think that would be very near to the reality, because you'd still be in control, and a large part of the terror of this (and all torture to some extent) is the total lack of control.
I guess you could do it to someone else or have them do it to you, but I don't think it's safe. Because you can't see their face, you lose your best indicator of when you need to pull them up. I also don't see a reliable way for them to signal to you; even if you think you have one they might panic and not be able to use it, even more so if you're doing this with strangers. There's some skill to the timing that you aren't going to be able to judge just like that. They're also probably going to vomit when they come up, it isn't going to be pleasant. I really don't think you should do this to a stranger or have them to it to you. Health, the law, dying etc. I doubt you could find medical personnel willing to stand by.
The bottom line for me is that this is not safe to do and not be in control, and if you're in control, it's nothing like "the real thing" - it becomes a challenge rather than a horror.
If you really want to set up a torture booth or something, (and I wouldn't) you could go for some of the techniques that involve using the body against itself -stress positions etc. If you really want to do this for some other reason, and you do do it, just be aware that you have to choose between realism and safety.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:27 PM on December 2, 2005
The nearest you can safely get is to go put your head in a bath of cold water until you can't possibly stand it for another second, and I don't think that would be very near to the reality, because you'd still be in control, and a large part of the terror of this (and all torture to some extent) is the total lack of control.
I guess you could do it to someone else or have them do it to you, but I don't think it's safe. Because you can't see their face, you lose your best indicator of when you need to pull them up. I also don't see a reliable way for them to signal to you; even if you think you have one they might panic and not be able to use it, even more so if you're doing this with strangers. There's some skill to the timing that you aren't going to be able to judge just like that. They're also probably going to vomit when they come up, it isn't going to be pleasant. I really don't think you should do this to a stranger or have them to it to you. Health, the law, dying etc. I doubt you could find medical personnel willing to stand by.
The bottom line for me is that this is not safe to do and not be in control, and if you're in control, it's nothing like "the real thing" - it becomes a challenge rather than a horror.
If you really want to set up a torture booth or something, (and I wouldn't) you could go for some of the techniques that involve using the body against itself -stress positions etc. If you really want to do this for some other reason, and you do do it, just be aware that you have to choose between realism and safety.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:27 PM on December 2, 2005
Also, your title is stupidly flippant. This is a weird post.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:29 PM on December 2, 2005
posted by crabintheocean at 12:29 PM on December 2, 2005
Response by poster: In more searching, I found an ABC News link:
"Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess."
I think the technique that felix refers to was common in South American torture, but our accountability by public perception means:
Bad torture = anything where the description reads like out and out torture. (As in felix's description, water in the lungs, punch in the stomach.)
Acceptable torture: can do things that are psychlogically devastating but seem relatively innocuous on paper. (Water poured over cellophane? Pish-posh. What a comparatively trivial physical sensation.)
I think that for, say a high level detainee, ala Khalid, is well educated in torture resistance and knows that there is no way that he would be executed (alothough they are doing their best to convince him otherwise, certainly).
The real deviousness this technique is that it overrides that education with overwhelming signals from the brain: "You are dying!" regardless of what you know about how innocuous the technique is.
From some psychology experiments I have read, the key factor in elevating the "cheap thrill" to "the real thing" might not be the thought of imminent death but rather the lack of control you would have over stopping the torture in an actual situation.
posted by BleachBypass at 12:31 PM on December 2, 2005
"Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess."
I think the technique that felix refers to was common in South American torture, but our accountability by public perception means:
Bad torture = anything where the description reads like out and out torture. (As in felix's description, water in the lungs, punch in the stomach.)
Acceptable torture: can do things that are psychlogically devastating but seem relatively innocuous on paper. (Water poured over cellophane? Pish-posh. What a comparatively trivial physical sensation.)
I think that for, say a high level detainee, ala Khalid, is well educated in torture resistance and knows that there is no way that he would be executed (alothough they are doing their best to convince him otherwise, certainly).
The real deviousness this technique is that it overrides that education with overwhelming signals from the brain: "You are dying!" regardless of what you know about how innocuous the technique is.
From some psychology experiments I have read, the key factor in elevating the "cheap thrill" to "the real thing" might not be the thought of imminent death but rather the lack of control you would have over stopping the torture in an actual situation.
posted by BleachBypass at 12:31 PM on December 2, 2005
As described to me by someone who experienced it: You are strapped to a board with your feet above your head. A t-shirt is stretched tightly over your face and held down. Water is poured onto your mouth and nose.
It doesn't matter how long you can hold your breath. The hose isn't going to run out of water.
You can't replicate the experience at home. Imagine being tied down in a desolate area, where no one can hear you scream. And the person doing it is not your friend; in fact they're a rival, an enemy, someone who would benefit if you were dead. You killed a friend of theirs, perhaps their brother, and now your captor wouldn't mind some payback. They have a *shovel* nearby, you understand, and a deep dark forest with nice soft soil for digging your grave, if necessary. They have *all day*. They have *pliers*. They have a *hammer* and they're looking at your *kneecap*.
posted by jellicle at 12:42 PM on December 2, 2005
It doesn't matter how long you can hold your breath. The hose isn't going to run out of water.
You can't replicate the experience at home. Imagine being tied down in a desolate area, where no one can hear you scream. And the person doing it is not your friend; in fact they're a rival, an enemy, someone who would benefit if you were dead. You killed a friend of theirs, perhaps their brother, and now your captor wouldn't mind some payback. They have a *shovel* nearby, you understand, and a deep dark forest with nice soft soil for digging your grave, if necessary. They have *all day*. They have *pliers*. They have a *hammer* and they're looking at your *kneecap*.
posted by jellicle at 12:42 PM on December 2, 2005
Response by poster: crabintheocean: I take this seriously, I am very interested in the psychology of torture, I am interested in the debate regarding the justifications for torture, I think that quite the opposite of generating a "been there-done that" attitude I think it could be a real eye opener.
I just happen to be stupidly flippant.
Compared to the psychological immediacy of water boarding, the other "enhanced interrogation techniques" seem too time and control based; more likely to generate a "that's not so bad" feeling if not carried out to the full extent of the torture (ie, far past the opt out point, but well within the body's capacity).
Without the right set and setting, many of us could laugh off an "Attention Grab" or a "Belly Slap." The opt-out nature of an exhibit is contrary to demonstrating the true horror of something as innocuous as standing, or being cold. Participants are too likely to opt out way before they realize the extent of the psychological trauma possible.
I'm interested in being corrected here, but I think the point of modern water boarding is that the torturers have realized they don't actually need to drown you, they don't even need to come close to something that could result in drowning if carried out fully. They just have to fool the brain into thinking you are drowning. I don't know that the mindset and physical setting is as paramount when they have discovered such a convienient shortcut to the primal brain.
posted by BleachBypass at 1:13 PM on December 2, 2005
I just happen to be stupidly flippant.
Compared to the psychological immediacy of water boarding, the other "enhanced interrogation techniques" seem too time and control based; more likely to generate a "that's not so bad" feeling if not carried out to the full extent of the torture (ie, far past the opt out point, but well within the body's capacity).
Without the right set and setting, many of us could laugh off an "Attention Grab" or a "Belly Slap." The opt-out nature of an exhibit is contrary to demonstrating the true horror of something as innocuous as standing, or being cold. Participants are too likely to opt out way before they realize the extent of the psychological trauma possible.
I'm interested in being corrected here, but I think the point of modern water boarding is that the torturers have realized they don't actually need to drown you, they don't even need to come close to something that could result in drowning if carried out fully. They just have to fool the brain into thinking you are drowning. I don't know that the mindset and physical setting is as paramount when they have discovered such a convienient shortcut to the primal brain.
posted by BleachBypass at 1:13 PM on December 2, 2005
There' s an improv game called "Head in a Bucket." Three improvisers act out a scene, based on an audience suggestion, as usual. The gimmick is: at all times, one actor has to have his head immersed in a bucket of water. When he's desperate for air, he raises his hand to signal the other actors. Depending on their level of attention and their desire to complete a beat in the scene, they'll tag him out more or less promptly and take his place. The outgoing actor has to justify his exit. The incoming actor has to justify why he's soaking wet and breathing hard.
Initially the actors can stay "in the bucket" for up to a minute or two (depending). As the scene progresses however, the rapid turnover makes it increasing hard to hold your breath. You really have very little control over when you're going in or when you'll be called out. It's safe because no one is physically holding the actor down but there's intense pressure to "play by the rules" and stay, no matter how uncomfortable. I've only seen someone break (cheat) once.
If your goal is to bring this to the public's attention, a scene played out this way could be very intense. Modify it so the torturers don't have to go in the bucket, maybe have mulitple victims who rotate and (of course) don't play it for laughs.
This (or something like it) is the ONLY WAY you should even consider "replicating" waterboarding. For gods sakes do not physically restrain someone, even a volunteer, and dunk them in water or force water up their nose.
posted by zanni at 9:27 PM on December 2, 2005
Initially the actors can stay "in the bucket" for up to a minute or two (depending). As the scene progresses however, the rapid turnover makes it increasing hard to hold your breath. You really have very little control over when you're going in or when you'll be called out. It's safe because no one is physically holding the actor down but there's intense pressure to "play by the rules" and stay, no matter how uncomfortable. I've only seen someone break (cheat) once.
If your goal is to bring this to the public's attention, a scene played out this way could be very intense. Modify it so the torturers don't have to go in the bucket, maybe have mulitple victims who rotate and (of course) don't play it for laughs.
This (or something like it) is the ONLY WAY you should even consider "replicating" waterboarding. For gods sakes do not physically restrain someone, even a volunteer, and dunk them in water or force water up their nose.
posted by zanni at 9:27 PM on December 2, 2005
I agree with everyone else that you can reproduce the sensation, but you can't reproduce the experience. No matter how painful or upsetting a physical sensation, the point of the experience is that you have no idea how long it's going to continue, or whether your torturers will let you die.
And if you did it a college, wouldn't you get lots of asshole frat guys doing it just to say "That wasn't so bad Let's go again!". That's not the effect you want...
posted by AmbroseChapel at 11:14 PM on December 2, 2005
And if you did it a college, wouldn't you get lots of asshole frat guys doing it just to say "That wasn't so bad Let's go again!". That's not the effect you want...
posted by AmbroseChapel at 11:14 PM on December 2, 2005
I actually have drowned. Had to restart my heart. Waterboarding is worse. Probably because you know the ocean is what it is.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:36 PM on December 2, 2005
posted by Smedleyman at 11:36 PM on December 2, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:57 AM on December 2, 2005 [1 favorite]