Daughter hates having hair combed; shouldn't we cut it?
July 1, 2015 6:45 AM Subscribe
My nearly 5-year-old daughter has shoulder-length hair that is thin and prone to tangling. It's beautiful but she screams bloody murder and/or gripes the entire time it's being combed. Every time. I would like to have it cut shorter and/or make significant changes to the combing routine, but it's a sensitive topic, and I think my wife is a little too attached to her having longer hair than she needs to.
This is typically done after a bath, with conditioner, sometimes with spray-in detangler, but ultimately I think she's in genuine pain and we need to cut her hair shorter to make the process easier, braid it every night, etc -- we need to change up the routine.
My wife acts more like the daughter is exaggerating and doesn't appreciate any interest I have in mitigating the problem, like it's not my "territory."
I think it's ultimately a bad thing for their relationship for this to continue. I'm getting a little fixated on my own childhood and growing increasingly aware of memories of my own parents being indifferent or selfish to my needs, and it's a painful process.
It gets unbearable enough for me that I have to go to my office and close the door, put on headphones, etc, and I feel genuinely guilty about it.
The thing is, my daughter *mostly* doesn't mind when I comb her hair because I spend much longer "hand-combing," gently pulling all of her tangles apart with my fingers until the comb pretty much flows through with just a few snags. But like I said, this is not "my territory" and I've had some arguments about whether my technique is genuinely less painful or I'm just taking too long and our daughter needs to get used to it.
My wife clearly makes an effort not to pull her hair but it's super-fine and hard to avoid when any tangles hit the comb, but I think her indifference to the crying is unhealthy and am curious if there's a consensus of any kind on that and how best to move forward.
This is typically done after a bath, with conditioner, sometimes with spray-in detangler, but ultimately I think she's in genuine pain and we need to cut her hair shorter to make the process easier, braid it every night, etc -- we need to change up the routine.
My wife acts more like the daughter is exaggerating and doesn't appreciate any interest I have in mitigating the problem, like it's not my "territory."
I think it's ultimately a bad thing for their relationship for this to continue. I'm getting a little fixated on my own childhood and growing increasingly aware of memories of my own parents being indifferent or selfish to my needs, and it's a painful process.
It gets unbearable enough for me that I have to go to my office and close the door, put on headphones, etc, and I feel genuinely guilty about it.
The thing is, my daughter *mostly* doesn't mind when I comb her hair because I spend much longer "hand-combing," gently pulling all of her tangles apart with my fingers until the comb pretty much flows through with just a few snags. But like I said, this is not "my territory" and I've had some arguments about whether my technique is genuinely less painful or I'm just taking too long and our daughter needs to get used to it.
My wife clearly makes an effort not to pull her hair but it's super-fine and hard to avoid when any tangles hit the comb, but I think her indifference to the crying is unhealthy and am curious if there's a consensus of any kind on that and how best to move forward.
Thing about hair- it does grow back.
posted by slateyness at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by slateyness at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
No consensus will be forthcoming, I'm sure. But I recently cut my 5-yo daughter's hair short for the same reason. My wife was a little reluctant, but ultimately left it up to our daughter. After about a month of being told during tearful combing incidents that her choice was to accept the combing or cut her hair, she decided she wanted to cut her hair. She looks super cute with short hair and has not expressed any regrets.
I would advise doing the same, but I don't have any advice on how to bring your wife around to the idea.
posted by 256 at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would advise doing the same, but I don't have any advice on how to bring your wife around to the idea.
posted by 256 at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
The rubric we use around here is: if you want it long, you need to help take care of it. If not, we'll cut it to something more manageable (shoulder-length, for example). As they've gotten older, the girls who prefer it longer are more capable of dealing with it on their own and taking us more or less out of the equation. The oldest has it down to the middle of her back, the others range from shoulder-bobs and everything in between.
Does your daughter want it long? Make part of this her call.
posted by jquinby at 6:55 AM on July 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
Does your daughter want it long? Make part of this her call.
posted by jquinby at 6:55 AM on July 1, 2015 [9 favorites]
Father of a blonde-haired daughter. The deal I've had with my daughter, since she was old enough to understand English, is that if she doesn't consent to getting her hair brushed, she's going to get a hair-cut.
Distraction (this is my once daily use of TV), short bristle brush, hand-combing, detangler are all good solutions.
We made a very conscious choice that one of us would not be in charge of this. We take turns, sometimes grandma brushes, sometimes her aunt, sometimes my friends. We found making it a less personal battle calmed her down a lot and normalized the activity.
I think leaving the room and putting on headphones is not a helpful thing to do. You are isolating your wife, making this all about them. I think the real issue here is that you need to talk to your wife and take a more active role in this. If it’s something you rarely do, and leave the room during, I can see your wife’s point about this being her issue to handle.
posted by French Fry at 6:56 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Distraction (this is my once daily use of TV), short bristle brush, hand-combing, detangler are all good solutions.
We made a very conscious choice that one of us would not be in charge of this. We take turns, sometimes grandma brushes, sometimes her aunt, sometimes my friends. We found making it a less personal battle calmed her down a lot and normalized the activity.
I think leaving the room and putting on headphones is not a helpful thing to do. You are isolating your wife, making this all about them. I think the real issue here is that you need to talk to your wife and take a more active role in this. If it’s something you rarely do, and leave the room during, I can see your wife’s point about this being her issue to handle.
posted by French Fry at 6:56 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was your daughter - my hair tangled something fierce, and my mom insisted that it stay long. The first time I ever had input into it (second grade, I think?), I cut it all off.
I don't know if it was painful, necessarily - I don't remember that - but to this day, I HATE people touching my hair. I'm not sure if I always had that thing and that's why I made such a fuss over the brushing, or if the dislike for hair touching is a result of the awful experiences as a kid...but in the end it doesn't matter. Your kid is miserable. There's an easy way to stop her misery.
posted by okayokayigive at 6:58 AM on July 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't know if it was painful, necessarily - I don't remember that - but to this day, I HATE people touching my hair. I'm not sure if I always had that thing and that's why I made such a fuss over the brushing, or if the dislike for hair touching is a result of the awful experiences as a kid...but in the end it doesn't matter. Your kid is miserable. There's an easy way to stop her misery.
posted by okayokayigive at 6:58 AM on July 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
You sound like a good dad. (I'm guessing you're a dad since hair care isn't "your territory," which sounds like a gendered argument to me. If you're a mom, my apologies.)
I had very tangly hair as a kid and it did hurt a lot to have it combed. There were definitely some nights where I was screaming bloody murder or whinging throughout the entire process. Around that time my parents decided they didn't want to hurt me anymore, so I sported the world's fugliest bowl cut until I was old enough to care for my hair on my own. The bad haircut was totally worth it since I didn't have to be in pain. (It was also worth it to my parents, who genuinely hated inflicting unnecessary pain on me.)
So, I think you're right to push for a haircut or other routine change that will make this less painful for your daughter. I also agree with you that your wife's indifference to your daughter's pain is concerning and unhealthy.
When you have this conversation, you might also try to discuss why your daughter's hair care is not "your territory." Just because you're a dad doesn't mean you don't get to play a role in things like this, especially if you want to. Sexism hurts both mothers and fathers by relegating them to very narrow roles that don't overlap much. The status quo is hurting your daughter, likely hurting your daughter's relationship with her mother, and is compromising your own role as a parent.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:00 AM on July 1, 2015 [41 favorites]
I had very tangly hair as a kid and it did hurt a lot to have it combed. There were definitely some nights where I was screaming bloody murder or whinging throughout the entire process. Around that time my parents decided they didn't want to hurt me anymore, so I sported the world's fugliest bowl cut until I was old enough to care for my hair on my own. The bad haircut was totally worth it since I didn't have to be in pain. (It was also worth it to my parents, who genuinely hated inflicting unnecessary pain on me.)
So, I think you're right to push for a haircut or other routine change that will make this less painful for your daughter. I also agree with you that your wife's indifference to your daughter's pain is concerning and unhealthy.
When you have this conversation, you might also try to discuss why your daughter's hair care is not "your territory." Just because you're a dad doesn't mean you don't get to play a role in things like this, especially if you want to. Sexism hurts both mothers and fathers by relegating them to very narrow roles that don't overlap much. The status quo is hurting your daughter, likely hurting your daughter's relationship with her mother, and is compromising your own role as a parent.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 7:00 AM on July 1, 2015 [41 favorites]
Check with your local hair salon to see if you can get a stronger conditioner or detangler. My daughter has tangled hair, too, and good hair products have made a big difference. In her case, she wants long hair and knows she needs to use the products to keep it in good shape. You ultimately want the "territory" to belong to your daughter, if you can arrange that.
posted by debgpi at 7:02 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by debgpi at 7:02 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have hair that is terrible to brush though. Fine blonde hair. I don't know if your wife will be open to "helpful" suggestions but when i brush slow and from the ends and progress slowly up it's pretty easy.
It makes me nuts when a hairdresser starts combing my hair from the top. It takes 3 times as long and is pretty painful.
Also, keeping it trimmed helps make it easier to comb through.
Good Luck.
posted by ReluctantViking at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
It makes me nuts when a hairdresser starts combing my hair from the top. It takes 3 times as long and is pretty painful.
Also, keeping it trimmed helps make it easier to comb through.
Good Luck.
posted by ReluctantViking at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
My daughter is 10 now and since she was about five she has been allowed to choose whether to grow her hair (and put up with combing, braiding, etc) or keep it fairly short. Now at 10 she does her own hair and I just tell her if it looks like she's missed any obvious tangles.
I also remember tense moments with my mother over my long hair because she always seemed (to my memory) to want to do complicated braids with ribbons and loops, and I had fine, flyaway hair which tangled like a mofo. So I'm more inclined to leave my daughter with the choice of how to style it day-to-day as well as whether she wants to have it long or short. As long as it's tidy and practical (e.g. ponytail for school), I'm okay. She's been doing her own hair for a couple of years. Before that, she would comb out the majority and I would tease out whatever knots were left over. Then I'd generally stick it in a ponytail, and maybe sometimes if I was in the mood I would offer to braid it -- she almost always said no.
It's tricky though because on the surface this is a small battle, but has the potential to blow up into something much bigger. Maybe the best option to save on the stress of knowing this is happening and to avoid a fight is for you to take this job on yourself, every night -- at least the detangling part. Then your wife can do the styling part if she wants to. Make it a daddy-daughter time. Talk about your days, what's happening at school/preschool/the playground and have a few jokes. Pour your wife a glass of wine or send her off to relax for fifteen minutes.
posted by tracicle at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2015
I also remember tense moments with my mother over my long hair because she always seemed (to my memory) to want to do complicated braids with ribbons and loops, and I had fine, flyaway hair which tangled like a mofo. So I'm more inclined to leave my daughter with the choice of how to style it day-to-day as well as whether she wants to have it long or short. As long as it's tidy and practical (e.g. ponytail for school), I'm okay. She's been doing her own hair for a couple of years. Before that, she would comb out the majority and I would tease out whatever knots were left over. Then I'd generally stick it in a ponytail, and maybe sometimes if I was in the mood I would offer to braid it -- she almost always said no.
It's tricky though because on the surface this is a small battle, but has the potential to blow up into something much bigger. Maybe the best option to save on the stress of knowing this is happening and to avoid a fight is for you to take this job on yourself, every night -- at least the detangling part. Then your wife can do the styling part if she wants to. Make it a daddy-daughter time. Talk about your days, what's happening at school/preschool/the playground and have a few jokes. Pour your wife a glass of wine or send her off to relax for fifteen minutes.
posted by tracicle at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2015
Does your daughter want her hair cut shorter? I had similarly fine and tangly hair, and I also hated having my hair combed. I would have been devastated to have my hair cut. If your daughter would be ok with shorter hair, though, then it's stupid not to cut it. Even at 5, I think this is something your daughter should be allowed some input on.
posted by gatorae at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2015
posted by gatorae at 7:13 AM on July 1, 2015
What does your *daughter* want?
I hated having anyone else brush my hair, and went through several years around 9 or 10 where I just didn't brush it whenever I could get away with that. Then some time in late middle school/early high school I learned how to braid it and was much happier.
Right now it's short enough not to need brushing, and that suits me pretty well. I was just thinking yesterday about how much I wish I'd had the words to ask for really short hair when I was 9. But a few minutes later I thought I might grow it out because I like being able to braid it. And then I thought about how awesome it is that as an adult I get the bodily autonomy to make that decision! If I dont' want to spend my time/pain tolerance on haircare, I don't have to; and if I want, I can.
So your daughter might be a bit young to actually express "I'd like short hair rather than a war with the hairbrush", but that doesn't mean she isn't feeling that way. I think offering "ok, either you tolerate brushing or let's get it cut" is a good way to give her space to express what she wants. (And it doesn't have to be an awful bowl cut-- plenty of cute short hairstyles for girls that yours might decide to go for.)
posted by nat at 7:15 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I hated having anyone else brush my hair, and went through several years around 9 or 10 where I just didn't brush it whenever I could get away with that. Then some time in late middle school/early high school I learned how to braid it and was much happier.
Right now it's short enough not to need brushing, and that suits me pretty well. I was just thinking yesterday about how much I wish I'd had the words to ask for really short hair when I was 9. But a few minutes later I thought I might grow it out because I like being able to braid it. And then I thought about how awesome it is that as an adult I get the bodily autonomy to make that decision! If I dont' want to spend my time/pain tolerance on haircare, I don't have to; and if I want, I can.
So your daughter might be a bit young to actually express "I'd like short hair rather than a war with the hairbrush", but that doesn't mean she isn't feeling that way. I think offering "ok, either you tolerate brushing or let's get it cut" is a good way to give her space to express what she wants. (And it doesn't have to be an awful bowl cut-- plenty of cute short hairstyles for girls that yours might decide to go for.)
posted by nat at 7:15 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I have very fine hair, and VIVID VIVID memories of painful, protracted brushing sessions. My mum was fairly indifferent to the pain of brushing out tangles, and would just tear a comb through my hair.
I'm with Schroedingersgirl - a hair cut (and a Tangle Teezer!) is the way to get around this, if your daughter is open to having shorter hair.
Also, for the record? Your method of combing out fine hair - by gently finger combing first, pulling apart tangles with your fingers - is what most hairdressers would consider the 'correct' method to prevent breakage.
posted by nerdfish at 7:16 AM on July 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm with Schroedingersgirl - a hair cut (and a Tangle Teezer!) is the way to get around this, if your daughter is open to having shorter hair.
Also, for the record? Your method of combing out fine hair - by gently finger combing first, pulling apart tangles with your fingers - is what most hairdressers would consider the 'correct' method to prevent breakage.
posted by nerdfish at 7:16 AM on July 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
There's multiple issues here, probably the deepest most serious one is parental inability to do teamwork on this. You can't *make* her do or feel or agree to anything, and if she has no inclination to care what you think...you're kind of stuck.
Certainly all the parents of tangly-haired children I know eventually reached a place of "we are all miserable with this hair thing" and recognition of the shitty gender baggage you put on girls by valuing their femininity-markers over their discomfort. Truth of the matter is, no matter your age, if your hair is a giant pain in the ass [for somebody] to maintain, you are wearing it in the wrong style for your type and texture of hair, and this is a problem that can be solved for cheap or free.
A child doesn't have a lifetime of head pain yet to provide perspective on what she's experiencing. She's not *exaggerating*, it's simply the worst pain she's known so far. It's also a shock and betrayal when an adult routinely hurts you on purpose and tells you to shut up. It's another gender problem, mothers teaching daughters to suffer to be pretty, and to get used to it because there's worse to come.
It's a shitty way to live. It's a shitty thing to teach kids about grownups, especially if you're making any effort to teach them about body autonomy and who's allowed to do what to them, and when you're supposed to say something and when you're supposed to shut up and take it.
But if you're going to opt out (an option mostly granted to men) and go put headphones on, you're playing your part in that as well.
I think the fairest way to approach your wife to discuss this is from a place of looking for a position Team Parent can live with. Best to do it not in-the-moment when emotions are high.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:20 AM on July 1, 2015 [68 favorites]
Certainly all the parents of tangly-haired children I know eventually reached a place of "we are all miserable with this hair thing" and recognition of the shitty gender baggage you put on girls by valuing their femininity-markers over their discomfort. Truth of the matter is, no matter your age, if your hair is a giant pain in the ass [for somebody] to maintain, you are wearing it in the wrong style for your type and texture of hair, and this is a problem that can be solved for cheap or free.
A child doesn't have a lifetime of head pain yet to provide perspective on what she's experiencing. She's not *exaggerating*, it's simply the worst pain she's known so far. It's also a shock and betrayal when an adult routinely hurts you on purpose and tells you to shut up. It's another gender problem, mothers teaching daughters to suffer to be pretty, and to get used to it because there's worse to come.
It's a shitty way to live. It's a shitty thing to teach kids about grownups, especially if you're making any effort to teach them about body autonomy and who's allowed to do what to them, and when you're supposed to say something and when you're supposed to shut up and take it.
But if you're going to opt out (an option mostly granted to men) and go put headphones on, you're playing your part in that as well.
I think the fairest way to approach your wife to discuss this is from a place of looking for a position Team Parent can live with. Best to do it not in-the-moment when emotions are high.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:20 AM on July 1, 2015 [68 favorites]
Agreed with keeping on trying detanglers. We wear our swimsuits in the shower to wash and comb through hair using a wide tooth comb while the hair is wet with volumising conditioner. Then one of us leaves and gets dressed, the other finishes their shower, sans swimsuits.
I want to cut the kid's hair shot, she wants it long, so we're growing it long enough to leave in a braid a lot. We cut it a few years back when she was having hair-chewing issues. Both of us parents take turns keeping it tangle free.
We've also had to deal with lice, so we've hit truce levels of how much combing, and use phone photos to show "still tangled" or "brushed enough" to settle arguments about how much is 'enough'.
The only time I detangle dry is after I've already shower-combed it and let it dry. So it's only a little tangled. And I'm about to go through it with a lice comb. (Huggy-girl's predilection to catching lice is frustrating but we've worked out a standard routine we both put up with.)
posted by tilde at 7:22 AM on July 1, 2015
I want to cut the kid's hair shot, she wants it long, so we're growing it long enough to leave in a braid a lot. We cut it a few years back when she was having hair-chewing issues. Both of us parents take turns keeping it tangle free.
We've also had to deal with lice, so we've hit truce levels of how much combing, and use phone photos to show "still tangled" or "brushed enough" to settle arguments about how much is 'enough'.
The only time I detangle dry is after I've already shower-combed it and let it dry. So it's only a little tangled. And I'm about to go through it with a lice comb. (Huggy-girl's predilection to catching lice is frustrating but we've worked out a standard routine we both put up with.)
posted by tilde at 7:22 AM on July 1, 2015
We made a deal: She takes care of her hair, every day, or we cut it off. At about age 6 this came down to a final confrontation where she sobbed through a forced haircut. (We still talk about this day!) Since that day she has brushed her hair every day, washed and conditioned it herself, combing it out with the conditioner. She still needs to be nagged to get it done, but she gets that's the deal. Has worked for the last 6 years or so.
posted by latkes at 7:26 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 7:26 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
(Having said that, this seems like a conflict between you and your wife, and whatever advice you get here isn't going to help bolster your argument with her)
posted by latkes at 7:29 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 7:29 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't comment on the parental emotional aspect of it, but I had long hair until 1st grade (long, fine, tangle-prone hair) and I remember screaming murder when I got my hair brushed. Then I saw a small neighbor do the same, and my mom told me it was something only little kids do. After that, I was a) much better at brushing my hair without cryin, and b) grew up to have a very high pain tolerance and a really good, supportive relationship with my mom.
In 1st grade, my mom sprained her wrist, and I got a forced haircut because she couldn't untangle my hair any longer. I also survived that!
No idea how this all mixes together, but there's hope for your daughter even if the crying continues for another year, or if you get it cut.
posted by samthemander at 7:29 AM on July 1, 2015
In 1st grade, my mom sprained her wrist, and I got a forced haircut because she couldn't untangle my hair any longer. I also survived that!
No idea how this all mixes together, but there's hope for your daughter even if the crying continues for another year, or if you get it cut.
posted by samthemander at 7:29 AM on July 1, 2015
Your daughter absolutely does not need to get used to painful and indifferent combing. If it was something that didn't hurt (like toothbrushing), or something that hurts even for adults (like getting vaccinated), that would be different. But it doesn't hurt for grown-ups to comb their own hair, right? And if she's not screaming when you comb her hair, there's obviously a right way and a wrong way.
Let your daughter make the call between tangles and short hair. At such a young age, kids are subject to so many arbitrary "because I said so" rules that they welcome the opportunity to make their own decisions. And it's always good to give your child a sense of bodily autonomy, and that includes hair. Besides, short hair can look adorable on little girls.
In addition to the post-bath finger detangling, it helps to take the tangled section of hair in one hand, hold it firmly above where the tangle starts, and then comb. Kinda like this. You want there to be some slack between the roots and where you're holding the hair; if you're not pulling the roots, there's no pain.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:33 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let your daughter make the call between tangles and short hair. At such a young age, kids are subject to so many arbitrary "because I said so" rules that they welcome the opportunity to make their own decisions. And it's always good to give your child a sense of bodily autonomy, and that includes hair. Besides, short hair can look adorable on little girls.
In addition to the post-bath finger detangling, it helps to take the tangled section of hair in one hand, hold it firmly above where the tangle starts, and then comb. Kinda like this. You want there to be some slack between the roots and where you're holding the hair; if you're not pulling the roots, there's no pain.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:33 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Another voice chiming in that if your daughter would like to cut the hair, then a haircut is in order. It's not like she needs to get used to having her hair brushed now or forever be stunted in this basic skill--she will definitely be able to brush her own hair without complaining by the time she's ten. But whether a four-year-old wants something she hasn't experienced before can be very tricky to get a clear answer on.
If she really wants to keep her hair long and you want to help her with that, then braiding before bed should at least help a bit. Cornrows might also be a decent longer-term solution if you and your wife wouldn't have concerns about that being seen as cultural appropriation. ("My kid is crying every day because her hair hurts to brush" would outweigh "other cultures have dibs on tiny braids" in my book--I'm assuming your daughter's hair isn't actually afro-textured from the description.)
But I agree with you that there's just something off here. I have a son about the same age. When his hair gets longish and starts to look ridiculous (sticking out all directions), I cut it. If he wants we buzz it all off instead. It's never been an emotional issue because no one really cares what his hair looks like, beyond my preference that his preschool teachers not think we live in a zoo. (He does like looking snazzy and wearing nail polish.)
If my son had long hair, and it hurt him this much to brush it each day, I think it would be obvious whether it was okay to keep inflicting that on him. But if it's a girl, well, maybe the hair is really important to her; maybe she's exaggerating; maybe she needs to learn to suck it up if she's going to look pretty.
posted by cogitron at 7:37 AM on July 1, 2015
If she really wants to keep her hair long and you want to help her with that, then braiding before bed should at least help a bit. Cornrows might also be a decent longer-term solution if you and your wife wouldn't have concerns about that being seen as cultural appropriation. ("My kid is crying every day because her hair hurts to brush" would outweigh "other cultures have dibs on tiny braids" in my book--I'm assuming your daughter's hair isn't actually afro-textured from the description.)
But I agree with you that there's just something off here. I have a son about the same age. When his hair gets longish and starts to look ridiculous (sticking out all directions), I cut it. If he wants we buzz it all off instead. It's never been an emotional issue because no one really cares what his hair looks like, beyond my preference that his preschool teachers not think we live in a zoo. (He does like looking snazzy and wearing nail polish.)
If my son had long hair, and it hurt him this much to brush it each day, I think it would be obvious whether it was okay to keep inflicting that on him. But if it's a girl, well, maybe the hair is really important to her; maybe she's exaggerating; maybe she needs to learn to suck it up if she's going to look pretty.
posted by cogitron at 7:37 AM on July 1, 2015
There's another reason to cut your daughter's hair. Young kids are very sensitive to the way the brush pulls their hair, and interpret as "pain" some tweaks and pulls that older kids would interpret as "tugs". Part of that is just getting used to it, but it's very difficult to get used to "pain". If you cut it short, say top of shoulder or just below her chin (you say "shoulder length", but what you're describing sounds like shoulder-blades or "mid-back", not top of shoulder) then the tangles will be less snarly, less painful to brush out, and everything will be overall more manageable. She could even do a lot of her own hair brushing, which is always less painful than having someone else brush your hair (something about the coordination of the motion, the feedback between feeling the hair snag and knowing how hard you're pulling the brush). Then if she and your wife want her hair longer, the hair will grow, and she'll actually be able to get used to having her hair brushed, in a way that she can't now. Instead of hoping she'll get accustomed to having her hair long while it's already long, let her habits grow into it at the rate her hair grows.
Also to point out, freshly cut hair ends are blunt and tangle less than softly tapered irregular natural ends. Even a trim may well help.
posted by aimedwander at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also to point out, freshly cut hair ends are blunt and tangle less than softly tapered irregular natural ends. Even a trim may well help.
posted by aimedwander at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
My son has has hair past his shoulder blades. Two things have made it easier: having a stylist thin it out and much better conditioner. The thinning is not noticeable, except when shampooing and brushing.
posted by Mo Nickels at 7:43 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Mo Nickels at 7:43 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
My oldest girl's hair is similar and she looks so much better with short hair. Maybe ask your wife to at least look at some cute styles on the internet with you? Then she can see that it can be cute and stylish and girly without it being long (and stringy and tangly).
Also, both of my girls' hair is much easier to brush when we use the good shampoo and conditioner. Nothing too extravagant but something like Nexxus Humectress and Therappe makes a big difference in how easily it is to comb their hair after a bath.
posted by dawkins_7 at 7:45 AM on July 1, 2015
Also, both of my girls' hair is much easier to brush when we use the good shampoo and conditioner. Nothing too extravagant but something like Nexxus Humectress and Therappe makes a big difference in how easily it is to comb their hair after a bath.
posted by dawkins_7 at 7:45 AM on July 1, 2015
A few things:
a) What your daughter herself wants should count most in this situation
b) Your daughter is old enough to start combing her own hair (it's fair to check afterwards if she's done a good job)
c) What is your brushing/combing technique? With long hair you want to start from the bottom and gently work up. This has the added advantage that when you hit a snarl, you or your daughter can hold the hair up above the tangle such that the tugs caused by fighting the snarl pull on your hand and not on your scalp. Snarls can also be divide-and-conquered: stick your comb toward the bottom of it and work gently from there. Detangling methods are actually a very good illustration of the lesson that brute force is often not the best approach.
d) There are halfway measures between short and long hair, like braids, ponytails (these keep the tangles farther from the scalp so that you can avoid most of the pain (see above and, on preview, Metroid Baby's comment)), or even just medium-length hair. (On re-read I see you mentioned braiding.)
e) I agree with you that unnecessary pain is not something to insist on. Whether your daughter is prone to exaggeration is a separate question: on the one hand she's all of five years old, and on the other hand if it seems like she's exaggerating a bunch in other contexts as well, then that's something to address independently of the hair situation.
posted by trig at 7:46 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
a) What your daughter herself wants should count most in this situation
b) Your daughter is old enough to start combing her own hair (it's fair to check afterwards if she's done a good job)
c) What is your brushing/combing technique? With long hair you want to start from the bottom and gently work up. This has the added advantage that when you hit a snarl, you or your daughter can hold the hair up above the tangle such that the tugs caused by fighting the snarl pull on your hand and not on your scalp. Snarls can also be divide-and-conquered: stick your comb toward the bottom of it and work gently from there. Detangling methods are actually a very good illustration of the lesson that brute force is often not the best approach.
d) There are halfway measures between short and long hair, like braids, ponytails (these keep the tangles farther from the scalp so that you can avoid most of the pain (see above and, on preview, Metroid Baby's comment)), or even just medium-length hair. (On re-read I see you mentioned braiding.)
e) I agree with you that unnecessary pain is not something to insist on. Whether your daughter is prone to exaggeration is a separate question: on the one hand she's all of five years old, and on the other hand if it seems like she's exaggerating a bunch in other contexts as well, then that's something to address independently of the hair situation.
posted by trig at 7:46 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
She's four. There's no need for her to suffer to be beautiful. She should get a short haircut. If she wants a longer haircut when she's old enough to deal with it on her own, she can grow it out then.
I speak with authority, as the mother of a tangle-haired girl. I had short hair my whole childhood and I turned out fine.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:50 AM on July 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
I speak with authority, as the mother of a tangle-haired girl. I had short hair my whole childhood and I turned out fine.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:50 AM on July 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
Oh man. I hated having my long, fine, tangly hair combed as a child. I think hair types vary enough that people without tangly hair really don't understand how painful it can be. If my mom had been unsympathetic to crying, I would have really resented that.
My hair is still long and fine and tangly. At some point, I started using a different comb, which made a huge difference. Something like a pick would help. If she has tangles at the bottom, start there, holding the hair above it so it doesn't tug, and then work up. Conditioner might help. When I was little my mom braided my hair, which also helped keep things under control through the day. If your daughter wants short hair, great; it should be her decision, I think.
posted by three_red_balloons at 7:50 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
My hair is still long and fine and tangly. At some point, I started using a different comb, which made a huge difference. Something like a pick would help. If she has tangles at the bottom, start there, holding the hair above it so it doesn't tug, and then work up. Conditioner might help. When I was little my mom braided my hair, which also helped keep things under control through the day. If your daughter wants short hair, great; it should be her decision, I think.
posted by three_red_balloons at 7:50 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
If my daughter were crying daily over hair combing, I would definitely get her a haircut. Even if she didn't want one. Four year olds have to do lots of things they don't want to do and imagining that getting an unwanted haircut is going to be way more devastating than all those other daily unwanted things is buying into all kinds of unhealthy ideas about beauty.
If my husband decided to butt into some child care area we had both been thinking of as "my territory" and declared that he had his own opinion and felt it should have as much weight as mine - well, I'd be annoyed about the wrongness of his opinion, but I'd be pleased that he cared about our child's well-being and was acting as an equal partner. I think overall my pleasure would outweigh my annoyance. I'd rather my kid have two equally loving and involved parents than have my own way all the time.
posted by Redstart at 7:52 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
If my husband decided to butt into some child care area we had both been thinking of as "my territory" and declared that he had his own opinion and felt it should have as much weight as mine - well, I'd be annoyed about the wrongness of his opinion, but I'd be pleased that he cared about our child's well-being and was acting as an equal partner. I think overall my pleasure would outweigh my annoyance. I'd rather my kid have two equally loving and involved parents than have my own way all the time.
posted by Redstart at 7:52 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Your daughter is old enough to start brushing her own hair. The Wet Brush allows my almost-6-year old daughter to take care of her own hair in a pain-free manner. We also took her to a very kid-friendly salon and they gave her a cute, chin-length bob haircut that is totally adorable.
posted by hush at 7:52 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by hush at 7:52 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really think you need to step up and just take over the bath routine, including detangling. Why are you hiding with headphones? The status quo is bad for your kid and bad for your wife. You're setting up a terrible dynamic by making her do the work and criticizing the way she does it. It's a sure way to get your wife to reject any suggestions you have and feel insulted by you making them. Just say "babe why don't you go rest, I'll do the bath."
Once you are the one in charge of shampooing and detangling, you will have a leg to stand on and you can bring up the haircut issue as something that would benefit your daughter and you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
Once you are the one in charge of shampooing and detangling, you will have a leg to stand on and you can bring up the haircut issue as something that would benefit your daughter and you.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
Assuming your daughter does not want to cut her hair shorter:
Google "tangle teezer" and also look up Denman detangling brushes. They make a huge difference.
Try the "condition-wash-condition" technique: condition the ends of the hair first, continue the rest of the shower activities, and shampoo last. After rinsing off the shampoo, add some more conditioner and rinse.
It may also help to use hair treatment/intensive conditioners rather than everyday ones, at least that's what I'm now in the habit of doing. Inecto Coconut Oil treatments are good.
A tip for the detangling phase is to take a handful of hair ponytail-style and comb the length of that. That way, you can comb without pulling on the roots.
Also, let your daughter detangle her own hair.
posted by tel3path at 7:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Google "tangle teezer" and also look up Denman detangling brushes. They make a huge difference.
Try the "condition-wash-condition" technique: condition the ends of the hair first, continue the rest of the shower activities, and shampoo last. After rinsing off the shampoo, add some more conditioner and rinse.
It may also help to use hair treatment/intensive conditioners rather than everyday ones, at least that's what I'm now in the habit of doing. Inecto Coconut Oil treatments are good.
A tip for the detangling phase is to take a handful of hair ponytail-style and comb the length of that. That way, you can comb without pulling on the roots.
Also, let your daughter detangle her own hair.
posted by tel3path at 7:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your daughter should have some choice about whether she wants to have long hair or not. And "just get used to pain" is not a good way for kids to be taught. If you're able to brush her hair out without causing her pain, and if she likes long hair, why don't you take over entirely? All you're doing is hiding out with headphones, let your wife do that while you brush her hair.
I have very prone to tangling hair. It doesn't hurt to brush it out -- and I have no pain tolerance at all -- because I do it slowly and carefully from below. It shouldn't hurt to brush your hair. It can take me half an hour to detangle it.
My tricks are:
posted by jeather at 7:56 AM on July 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
I have very prone to tangling hair. It doesn't hurt to brush it out -- and I have no pain tolerance at all -- because I do it slowly and carefully from below. It shouldn't hurt to brush your hair. It can take me half an hour to detangle it.
My tricks are:
- go from the bottom up, slowly. It doesn't actually take that much longer because this takes the tangles out more effectively than rushing it.
- untangle while still wet and while the conditioner is still in, don't wash out the conditioner first. It's okay to waste some.
- sleep in a french braid. This is the only way I can effectively pull my hair back where it will stay put and untangled.
- use something wide toothed. I usually use a comb, sometimes a brush. I don't find it makes a difference as long as the teeth are reasonably far apart, that way they don't get stuck in the hair.
posted by jeather at 7:56 AM on July 1, 2015 [5 favorites]
This gave me flashbacks. I had hair so long I could sit on it. It was very fine and I was tender-headed. My mom tried, but untangling it was a twice-a-day nightmare. We braided it, which helped. My mother was reluctant to cut it, and I internalized that as a feeling that I wouldn't be "pretty" without it. There were a lot of tears and cursing. I finally cut it to shoulder length in high school, and even shorter in college. It is now in a stacked bob. The thing is, I get just as many "Cute hair!" compliments now as I did when it was crazy long. Make sure your daughter knows that she is special, not what's on her head.
posted by domo at 8:04 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by domo at 8:04 AM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
In a year or so she'll be old enough to take over the detangling. My sister used to do it while watching a bedtime tv show. For now, if your daughter is open to cutting it I think you should try cutting it.
Otherwise, spray or other leave-in conditioner, every time. Thinning if your hair person thinks it it a good idea. Totally yes to detangling brushes and combs. This type of comb is inexpensive and the only one I have found to work.
Attitudes to self-care are very important and you are definitely instilling them at this age. Kids do find stuff intensely unpleasant that is only mildly so, and they have to learn a certain amount of tolerance but you do not want her to have the idea that taking care of oneself is brutal and unpleasant-- not over a nightly ritual.
posted by BibiRose at 8:05 AM on July 1, 2015
Otherwise, spray or other leave-in conditioner, every time. Thinning if your hair person thinks it it a good idea. Totally yes to detangling brushes and combs. This type of comb is inexpensive and the only one I have found to work.
Attitudes to self-care are very important and you are definitely instilling them at this age. Kids do find stuff intensely unpleasant that is only mildly so, and they have to learn a certain amount of tolerance but you do not want her to have the idea that taking care of oneself is brutal and unpleasant-- not over a nightly ritual.
posted by BibiRose at 8:05 AM on July 1, 2015
I also heard the "get used to the pain and it won't hurt" and the "it's not really hurting, it's pulling" comments as a child. It's dismissive, and I still wish I could yank on the hair of the people who said it to me.
posted by domo at 8:08 AM on July 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by domo at 8:08 AM on July 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
Good quality hair care products and conditioning will help. As well as braiding firmly. While hair may be tangled and your wife may be rougher kids are not against playing one parent off the other like this. Make sure to present a United front on the hair issue and make decisions together before asking kiddos opinion.
posted by wwax at 8:11 AM on July 1, 2015
posted by wwax at 8:11 AM on July 1, 2015
My parents cut off my hair when I was 6 because I chewed the ends but I also remember the pain of tangled hair.
Cut it off. It's not a big deal. It's also not a punishment to have short hair (take care of it or we'll cut it off!). Short hair looks great and is a style and your daughter can still be smart or pretty with short hair. She'll just spend less time on her hair on a daily basis (traded off for more frequent hair cuts).
Grown women can have an irrational attachment to long hair - which is fine - but I hate seeing that play out on their daughters (or sons).
posted by hydrobatidae at 8:13 AM on July 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
Cut it off. It's not a big deal. It's also not a punishment to have short hair (take care of it or we'll cut it off!). Short hair looks great and is a style and your daughter can still be smart or pretty with short hair. She'll just spend less time on her hair on a daily basis (traded off for more frequent hair cuts).
Grown women can have an irrational attachment to long hair - which is fine - but I hate seeing that play out on their daughters (or sons).
posted by hydrobatidae at 8:13 AM on July 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
But like I said, this is not "my territory" and I've had some arguments about whether my technique is genuinely less painful or I'm just taking too long and our daughter needs to get used to it.
There's no reason why this shouldn't be your "territory."
Wife wants to be in charge of daughter's hair, but doesn't want daughter to squawk when it hurts, but doesn't want you to comb daughter's hair in a way that doesn't make daughter squawk. That's ridiculous. Who is benefiting in what way here? No-one.
The relative amount of pain from the hair combing and whether it's "real enough" is immaterial. There are certainly things that parents need to insist upon for their kids' own good, even if the kid isn't happy about it -- things like nutrition, hygiene, medicine, school, safety, sleep. Insisting that daughter suck it up and endure an uncomfortable beauty regimen so that adults can admire her hair is not in this category.
posted by desuetude at 8:18 AM on July 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
There's no reason why this shouldn't be your "territory."
Wife wants to be in charge of daughter's hair, but doesn't want daughter to squawk when it hurts, but doesn't want you to comb daughter's hair in a way that doesn't make daughter squawk. That's ridiculous. Who is benefiting in what way here? No-one.
The relative amount of pain from the hair combing and whether it's "real enough" is immaterial. There are certainly things that parents need to insist upon for their kids' own good, even if the kid isn't happy about it -- things like nutrition, hygiene, medicine, school, safety, sleep. Insisting that daughter suck it up and endure an uncomfortable beauty regimen so that adults can admire her hair is not in this category.
posted by desuetude at 8:18 AM on July 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
Get yourself a Wet Brush - this thing goes through my 6-year-old's long thick hair like BUTTAH. For real, it's an amazing brush. My daughter's hair is very difficult to brush and manage and this has made all of our lives so much easier.
In terms of your wife - well, I sometimes probably seem less sympathetic to my daughter's griping about hair brushing because I had to sit still too and get my hair brushed and it hurt but from an adult's eyes, it wasn't THAT bad. I think I probably have a bit of a "suck it up, buttercup" thing with the hair, just because I've been through it myself - but in other respects I am responsive and sensitive to my daughter's needs, so I'd look at it from that perspective with your wife. Is it just this one issue, or is it part of a pattern?
I do feel strongly that it's my daughter's hair and she gets to have a say about how long or short it is. We've said to her repeatedly that if she wants to have long hair, that means more work for her and us. She gets it.
We are teaching her to brush her own hair now, but we also take turns on who brushes it since it's pretty long and she's still a little kiddo. I don't see it as my "domain" at all - he doesn't know how to do braids so I do that, but he can brush and put it in a decent ponytail. I think it's sweet if a dad can get involved with it. Braiding is really easy and you can find lots of tutorials on YouTube for simple braids.
You might also want to look at getting her a silk pillowcase so it doesn't get so tangled up at night.
posted by sutel at 8:19 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
In terms of your wife - well, I sometimes probably seem less sympathetic to my daughter's griping about hair brushing because I had to sit still too and get my hair brushed and it hurt but from an adult's eyes, it wasn't THAT bad. I think I probably have a bit of a "suck it up, buttercup" thing with the hair, just because I've been through it myself - but in other respects I am responsive and sensitive to my daughter's needs, so I'd look at it from that perspective with your wife. Is it just this one issue, or is it part of a pattern?
I do feel strongly that it's my daughter's hair and she gets to have a say about how long or short it is. We've said to her repeatedly that if she wants to have long hair, that means more work for her and us. She gets it.
We are teaching her to brush her own hair now, but we also take turns on who brushes it since it's pretty long and she's still a little kiddo. I don't see it as my "domain" at all - he doesn't know how to do braids so I do that, but he can brush and put it in a decent ponytail. I think it's sweet if a dad can get involved with it. Braiding is really easy and you can find lots of tutorials on YouTube for simple braids.
You might also want to look at getting her a silk pillowcase so it doesn't get so tangled up at night.
posted by sutel at 8:19 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I had major issues with my hair as a child, and my problems with my hair were part of a larger set of issues concerning sensory processing disorder and anxiety. If you notice other things, like being unusually picky about what clothes she wears in the morning, I would suggest reading up on SPD and seeing if any of it looks familiar.
Probably not the case for your daughter, but I just want to throw it out there in case it is.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:26 AM on July 1, 2015
Probably not the case for your daughter, but I just want to throw it out there in case it is.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:26 AM on July 1, 2015
> It's also not a punishment to have short hair (take care of it or we'll cut it off!)
Very good point! It does get used as a punishment, when the only person who suffers is the parent who's overly attached to the image of their daughter with long hair. If you're matter of fact about it and just take her to get a haircut, it won't be a big deal to her.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:33 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Very good point! It does get used as a punishment, when the only person who suffers is the parent who's overly attached to the image of their daughter with long hair. If you're matter of fact about it and just take her to get a haircut, it won't be a big deal to her.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:33 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hey, why don't we see if there's a more easy to use hairbrush out there before chopping it all off? I highly recommend the Goody Ouchless Brush, which has worked miracles on me.
(I also had all my hair unexpectedly chopped off as a kid and haaaaaaaaaaaated it, and I pretty much won't have short short hair unless I have to to this day. And by "have to" I mean, I had pneumonia and half my hair fell out.)
I actually brush my hair by starting at the bottom, grabbing it a few inches up from the top and brushing that first, and then after that area is smooth, moving my hand up. Do not brush from the top on to the bottom and expect anything other than agony, especially since the tangles primarily form at the back of your neck. If you get the tangles out on the bottom first and work your way up, it's a lot less excruciating. Also, never use a tiny thin comb! Or combs at all, really.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:33 AM on July 1, 2015
(I also had all my hair unexpectedly chopped off as a kid and haaaaaaaaaaaated it, and I pretty much won't have short short hair unless I have to to this day. And by "have to" I mean, I had pneumonia and half my hair fell out.)
I actually brush my hair by starting at the bottom, grabbing it a few inches up from the top and brushing that first, and then after that area is smooth, moving my hand up. Do not brush from the top on to the bottom and expect anything other than agony, especially since the tangles primarily form at the back of your neck. If you get the tangles out on the bottom first and work your way up, it's a lot less excruciating. Also, never use a tiny thin comb! Or combs at all, really.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:33 AM on July 1, 2015
I think most people are missing the point that your wife is the one who is mostly having issues with this, by being indifferent to your daughter's crying but not being willing to cut her hair. I have terrible memories of my mom brushing my hair quickly and painfully while I ate breakfast at around the same age and I absolutely agree with you that this kind of thing can damage their relationship - while she may be an excellent mother in many regards, her tone-deafness in this one aspect is not something to be taken lightly.
Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of advice for you regarding how to talk to your wife about this besides the MeFi standard: couples counseling. This is more a parenting/communication issue between you and your wife than a beauty issue, because you see a problem and she thinks it's not even your territory to have an opinion on it, yet you are locking youself in your office wearing headphones to avoid having to hear your daughter's cries while your wife combs her hair. That is really excessive to me, and a sign that your wife needs to pay attention to your feelings on this, and for that matter, to consider whether your daughter might want shorter hair if she understood that it would mean an end to the painful combing sessions. (And if she hates it, it grows back - I had plenty of bad haircuts as a kid, but the painful brushing at breakfast is a much stronger memory.)
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 8:48 AM on July 1, 2015 [25 favorites]
Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of advice for you regarding how to talk to your wife about this besides the MeFi standard: couples counseling. This is more a parenting/communication issue between you and your wife than a beauty issue, because you see a problem and she thinks it's not even your territory to have an opinion on it, yet you are locking youself in your office wearing headphones to avoid having to hear your daughter's cries while your wife combs her hair. That is really excessive to me, and a sign that your wife needs to pay attention to your feelings on this, and for that matter, to consider whether your daughter might want shorter hair if she understood that it would mean an end to the painful combing sessions. (And if she hates it, it grows back - I had plenty of bad haircuts as a kid, but the painful brushing at breakfast is a much stronger memory.)
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 8:48 AM on July 1, 2015 [25 favorites]
1) I don't get why it's not your territory, or why it'd be your wife's any more than yours
2) Does she want to get it cut, or would be ok with it? If so, cut it and end this. Agree that she does not need to suffer for her hair, or ~get used to the pain.
3) If she doesn't want her hair cut, then no cutting, and try the detangling suggestions upthread. Nothing ever worked for me, my hair just got less tangly as I grew up. I think having long layers helped too!
posted by hejrat at 8:50 AM on July 1, 2015
2) Does she want to get it cut, or would be ok with it? If so, cut it and end this. Agree that she does not need to suffer for her hair, or ~get used to the pain.
3) If she doesn't want her hair cut, then no cutting, and try the detangling suggestions upthread. Nothing ever worked for me, my hair just got less tangly as I grew up. I think having long layers helped too!
posted by hejrat at 8:50 AM on July 1, 2015
Yes, this was me as a kid, same hair type, traditional mother who thought that a French braid looked neater...years of therapy right there, though not, obviously, all about hair.
My (non-custodial) father pressured me no end to cut my hair because my stepmother, who is NOT a bad person, didn't want to deal with long, fine, tangly hair. Talk about women's bodies and consent!!!! But really.
How does your daughter feel about short hair?
My mother was doing what she thought was best (in the 80s!), but times have changed, particularly WRT kids' non-life-and-death preferences and needs. It's a discussion worth having.
posted by 8603 at 8:56 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
My (non-custodial) father pressured me no end to cut my hair because my stepmother, who is NOT a bad person, didn't want to deal with long, fine, tangly hair. Talk about women's bodies and consent!!!! But really.
How does your daughter feel about short hair?
My mother was doing what she thought was best (in the 80s!), but times have changed, particularly WRT kids' non-life-and-death preferences and needs. It's a discussion worth having.
posted by 8603 at 8:56 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was your daughter as a child, and my mom was your wife, and hoo boy was that not a good scene. Your instincts about the dynamics are super correct in this case, and I would suggest that this is almost certainly an issue that goes way beyond the hair and you need to work on with your wife. It's also going to be important for you to be on the same page about this, because having one parent who behaves more empathetically towards a child but tolerates the other parent's behavior is ultimately a bad thing that will compound the problem.
That said, a few times out of frustration my mom insisted I have my hair cut super duper short, and it felt like a punishment. Five is definitely old enough to have opinions on her own hair, so talk to your daughter about this and try and get a sense of what she wants to happen and work with your wife to make sure she gets it.
In terms of practical suggestions, Nthing Tangle Teezers, substitute a keratin smoother for detangling spray, get your daughter a small brush and encourage her to start doing her own hair even if she won't be able to do the main duties. I'd advice against the Denman brushes, because they can be "scratchy" and they're also pretty heavy and can pull at the hair/scalp. They're not a great match for fine hair, even for people with a lot of it. Tangle teezers are much better suited. Also, you should not be brushing her hair after the bath/shower while it's wet. Detangle and comb it out before the bath, then shampoo/conditioner, pat it dry and let it air dry further, then brush it out again before bed.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:57 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
That said, a few times out of frustration my mom insisted I have my hair cut super duper short, and it felt like a punishment. Five is definitely old enough to have opinions on her own hair, so talk to your daughter about this and try and get a sense of what she wants to happen and work with your wife to make sure she gets it.
In terms of practical suggestions, Nthing Tangle Teezers, substitute a keratin smoother for detangling spray, get your daughter a small brush and encourage her to start doing her own hair even if she won't be able to do the main duties. I'd advice against the Denman brushes, because they can be "scratchy" and they're also pretty heavy and can pull at the hair/scalp. They're not a great match for fine hair, even for people with a lot of it. Tangle teezers are much better suited. Also, you should not be brushing her hair after the bath/shower while it's wet. Detangle and comb it out before the bath, then shampoo/conditioner, pat it dry and let it air dry further, then brush it out again before bed.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 8:57 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I realize kids' hair changes as they grow up, but does your daughter seem to have your hair, and not your wife's? Because I was one of those fine- and tangly-haired kids for whom hairbrushing was a nightmare, and I could never be so indifferent to a kid in that same situation. If your wife has always had thick, easier to manage hair, she may truly not comprehend your daughter's distress.
posted by gueneverey at 9:02 AM on July 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by gueneverey at 9:02 AM on July 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
It probably will not help convince your wife, but I had long fine hair as a child and hated having my hair brushed/combed because it farking hurt. And when I had long fine hair as an adult, I still hated going to the hairdresser, because they would comb it quickly and a bit rough, and hey, it still farking hurt. Could I get through it without crying? Yeah, sure, because I'm an adult, but the pain is real. Tenderheadedness is a real thing, and just because you *can* get through it doesn't mean that it hurts any less. My mom did all this stuff with my long hair because it made me look pretty and she liked getting compliments about me, and let me tell you, I resented the hell out of her for it later.
Also, gueneverey's point about different hair types is a good one. My mom has thick, coarse hair, while mine is very fine like my dad's.
posted by ashirys at 9:08 AM on July 1, 2015
Also, gueneverey's point about different hair types is a good one. My mom has thick, coarse hair, while mine is very fine like my dad's.
posted by ashirys at 9:08 AM on July 1, 2015
My parents had us three girls grow our hair long, and mom was nasty about brushing out the knots. Pure torture. We begged to get our hair cut. Just cut the girl's hair already, a short bob is still girly and cute.
posted by lizbunny at 9:12 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by lizbunny at 9:12 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel for your daughter in this situation! I have a LOT of very fine hair and it tangles like you wouldn't believe. My mother had always had a pixie cut, and my dad is bald, so hair brushing was sometimes quite painful and rough. Fortunately, my mom let me cut my hair short and that was honestly the easiest thing for a little kid. I have dreadlocks now, which counterintuitively have been the best solution for me as an adult (YMMV depending on where you live).
The things that concern me about this situation are the messages being sent to your daughter: that pretty hurts, that her hair is an important piece of her value as a person, that basic hygiene and personal care is painful and something to be avoided and most importantly, that Mommy doesn't care when she hurts or that she should hide from Mommy when she is in pain. I am also very wary of teaching children that they need to let people touch them in a way that hurts or they don't like. A lot of people discount the experiences that young children have that they will forget or are somehow immune to long-term damage, but you can attest that isn't true. I'm glad that you're stepping in because your wife could be creating a situation where your daughter has lifelong issues caring for herself.
posted by littlesocks at 9:37 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
The things that concern me about this situation are the messages being sent to your daughter: that pretty hurts, that her hair is an important piece of her value as a person, that basic hygiene and personal care is painful and something to be avoided and most importantly, that Mommy doesn't care when she hurts or that she should hide from Mommy when she is in pain. I am also very wary of teaching children that they need to let people touch them in a way that hurts or they don't like. A lot of people discount the experiences that young children have that they will forget or are somehow immune to long-term damage, but you can attest that isn't true. I'm glad that you're stepping in because your wife could be creating a situation where your daughter has lifelong issues caring for herself.
posted by littlesocks at 9:37 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
You know your wife is being mean to your kid by causing needless pain and not caring when she wails. Protect your kid. Stand up to your wife- don't hide behind headphones. Your job as a parent is to protect your child, and you can kindly and rationally set boundaries with your partner that align with your values. "Honey, I really do not like hearing her in pain. Hair and hygiene should not be a source of misery and conflict and stress. We need to find new hair solutions. Would you be able to comb more slowly and gently so she does not cry? Or we can ask her about cutting it short. Or I would be happy to take the time to comb it gently myself. This is important to me. Hearing her scream makes me feel absolutely terrible and I cannot tolerate it. Let's try a new solution. What do you think we should we do?"
There are better products than detangling spray, that's for sure. My hair is fine and it tangles fiercely. Detangling sprays are not very effective- they make the hair feel squeaky and fragile- compared to a good slippery conditioner, which is a creamy buffer against friction. Here is a solution that works wonderfully for me- this Conditioner- Herbal Essence Smooth Collection Conditioner for Dry Hair-is the absolute best. It's about $7 a bottle. If you can't find it, (this kind hello hydration, in the blue bottle, is ok as well.
Use very little shampoo and only at the roots. Shampoo as infrequently as possible (only once a week or even every two weeks). Don't pile her hair and scrub it around, creating more tangles. Leave it long and just work a little shampoo around the scalp, then rinse by letting water flow down the hair, again keeping the hair long and smooth. Then condition as usual and finish the bath.
Now it's time to brush out the knots.
When her hair is still wet from the shower, massage in about 2-3 tablespoons (in other words, a ton- you want a glob almost as big as an egg) of that Herbal Essence stuff, so there is very little near the scalp and a lot on the ends and the most tangled parts. Wait a couple minutes- the waiting is important- then use a wide tooth comb to gently get out the knots. Don't start combing at the scalp- it combines all the knots and makes them worse. Instead, comb the bottom 2 inches, then the bottom 4 inches, then the bottom 6 inches, etc, to slowly work out the tangles. The conditioner should be white and goopy in the hair. Trial and error will show you the right amount of conditioner to use- start with too much, you can always rinse it out and it's not expensive.
When all the tangles are out, her hair will be creamy and white and very very smooth. Gently rinse out most of the conditioner, letting water flow down the long hair rather than scrubbing the hair, so you don't re-tangle the hair. Leave some conditioner in the hair, don't rinse it all out.
Finally put a dab of conditioner on the most tangle prone parts (probably back of the head and underneath near the nape) and comb it gently through and leave it. It may dry slightly crunchy but if you smooth a wet hand over it the crunchiness will dissolve- but the conditioner will protect the tangle prone areas and also keep the hair cuticle smooth so the hair tangles less each time.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:38 AM on July 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
There are better products than detangling spray, that's for sure. My hair is fine and it tangles fiercely. Detangling sprays are not very effective- they make the hair feel squeaky and fragile- compared to a good slippery conditioner, which is a creamy buffer against friction. Here is a solution that works wonderfully for me- this Conditioner- Herbal Essence Smooth Collection Conditioner for Dry Hair-is the absolute best. It's about $7 a bottle. If you can't find it, (this kind hello hydration, in the blue bottle, is ok as well.
Use very little shampoo and only at the roots. Shampoo as infrequently as possible (only once a week or even every two weeks). Don't pile her hair and scrub it around, creating more tangles. Leave it long and just work a little shampoo around the scalp, then rinse by letting water flow down the hair, again keeping the hair long and smooth. Then condition as usual and finish the bath.
Now it's time to brush out the knots.
When her hair is still wet from the shower, massage in about 2-3 tablespoons (in other words, a ton- you want a glob almost as big as an egg) of that Herbal Essence stuff, so there is very little near the scalp and a lot on the ends and the most tangled parts. Wait a couple minutes- the waiting is important- then use a wide tooth comb to gently get out the knots. Don't start combing at the scalp- it combines all the knots and makes them worse. Instead, comb the bottom 2 inches, then the bottom 4 inches, then the bottom 6 inches, etc, to slowly work out the tangles. The conditioner should be white and goopy in the hair. Trial and error will show you the right amount of conditioner to use- start with too much, you can always rinse it out and it's not expensive.
When all the tangles are out, her hair will be creamy and white and very very smooth. Gently rinse out most of the conditioner, letting water flow down the long hair rather than scrubbing the hair, so you don't re-tangle the hair. Leave some conditioner in the hair, don't rinse it all out.
Finally put a dab of conditioner on the most tangle prone parts (probably back of the head and underneath near the nape) and comb it gently through and leave it. It may dry slightly crunchy but if you smooth a wet hand over it the crunchiness will dissolve- but the conditioner will protect the tangle prone areas and also keep the hair cuticle smooth so the hair tangles less each time.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 9:38 AM on July 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
The MOST important thing about short hair vs. long hair on a child is: does the child WANT short hair or long hair? The specifics of either decision can be worked around.
My hair was SUCH a stressor and point of contention in my family it still makes my stomach hurt decades later to think about it. About a decade ago I was diagnosed with scalp muscle contraction headaches, which explain why it has hurt all my life to brush and comb my hair. I also have very thick, heavy hair.
But the thing is, I wanted long hair SO BADLY and my parents wanted me to have short hair SO BADLY that I just felt horrible about myself ALL THE TIME. I was convinced that my mother was extra rough with the brush and comb (seriously, she would start at the eyeballs) just so I would agree to have it cut. Finally, she started going behind my back to the aunt who cut our hair and telling her to cut it short after I had told her to just trim it. I spent my whole childhood hating that aunt with the intensity of a million suns. Mom didn’t admit what she had done until AFTER THE AUNT HAD DIED. I never got a chance to make things right with her. Once I got too old to be held down under the scissors, I refused to have it cut at all; then the verbal abuse started. A week didn’t go by without one or the other, or both, of them telling me how dirty and disgusting and unkempt I looked with my long, straight hair “just hanging there.” I tell this story just to emphasize the psychological importance of letting your kids have SOME degree of bodily autonomy and a body image that they feel positive about, even if it feels a little inconvenient to you.
I also HIGHLY recommend the Tangle Teezer brush Rock Steady linked to, or similar detangling brushes. They are truly miraculous. I have one on the dresser and one in my purse. They go through my heavy wet hair like a hot knife through butter, without the pain of a comb.
The thing that worries me is the undercurrent of you and your wife feeling like the other doesn’t have your child’s best interests at heart, that there are “territories” when it comes to childrearing, and some general worry and mistrust. I hope you get to a place where you can talk about those things with each other.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:47 AM on July 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
My hair was SUCH a stressor and point of contention in my family it still makes my stomach hurt decades later to think about it. About a decade ago I was diagnosed with scalp muscle contraction headaches, which explain why it has hurt all my life to brush and comb my hair. I also have very thick, heavy hair.
But the thing is, I wanted long hair SO BADLY and my parents wanted me to have short hair SO BADLY that I just felt horrible about myself ALL THE TIME. I was convinced that my mother was extra rough with the brush and comb (seriously, she would start at the eyeballs) just so I would agree to have it cut. Finally, she started going behind my back to the aunt who cut our hair and telling her to cut it short after I had told her to just trim it. I spent my whole childhood hating that aunt with the intensity of a million suns. Mom didn’t admit what she had done until AFTER THE AUNT HAD DIED. I never got a chance to make things right with her. Once I got too old to be held down under the scissors, I refused to have it cut at all; then the verbal abuse started. A week didn’t go by without one or the other, or both, of them telling me how dirty and disgusting and unkempt I looked with my long, straight hair “just hanging there.” I tell this story just to emphasize the psychological importance of letting your kids have SOME degree of bodily autonomy and a body image that they feel positive about, even if it feels a little inconvenient to you.
I also HIGHLY recommend the Tangle Teezer brush Rock Steady linked to, or similar detangling brushes. They are truly miraculous. I have one on the dresser and one in my purse. They go through my heavy wet hair like a hot knife through butter, without the pain of a comb.
The thing that worries me is the undercurrent of you and your wife feeling like the other doesn’t have your child’s best interests at heart, that there are “territories” when it comes to childrearing, and some general worry and mistrust. I hope you get to a place where you can talk about those things with each other.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:47 AM on July 1, 2015 [6 favorites]
Almost 5 is a good time for your daughter to choose to have long hair that tangles or shorter hair that tangles less. Also for her to start brushing her own hair. I have usually had long hair, and it hurts much less when I'm the person brushing it.
posted by theora55 at 10:04 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 10:04 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Um, your daughter is 5. She should decide which haircut she wants (within reason, obviously). Some girls/women prefer to suffer...others opt for shorter hair. This should not be for you OR your wife to decide, it's about her body. My daughter (3) asked for short hair as soon as she understood that it hurts less to comb through...what does your daughter want?
Other than that - the tangle teezer brush is the only one that works for my daughters crazy thin, tangle prone hair. And now that she has short hair, she can brush it herself - win-win!
posted by The Toad at 10:19 AM on July 1, 2015
Other than that - the tangle teezer brush is the only one that works for my daughters crazy thin, tangle prone hair. And now that she has short hair, she can brush it herself - win-win!
posted by The Toad at 10:19 AM on July 1, 2015
The Knot Genie brush has eliminated about 80% of my 5-year-old's hairbrushing crying. Bad knots still result in tears, even though I'm as gentle as possible. (We've given her the option of shorter hair, but she isn't willing to do that right now, so we make do with lots of spray-in detangler and her "turtle brush.")
posted by belladonna at 10:25 AM on July 1, 2015
posted by belladonna at 10:25 AM on July 1, 2015
I have this kind of hair. I used to despise having it combed / brushed by my parents, which really was genuinely painful and stressful, but I stubbornly also wanted to keep it long. Do either of you know the technique for coming long tangly hair without pulling it, though? Because I learned this when I was a teenager, when I happened across an unusually actually useful beauty article in a magazine, and it made a world of difference for me (and it's really helped with my son, who also has very fine easily tangled hair). I wish, wish wish that my mother had known how to properly comb hair like mine when I was little because it would have saved us both so many tears.
You can do this with any comb or brush-- you don't need a special one.
Grab a small section of hair NEAR THE END of your child's hair length. You want to be no more than couple of inches up from the end of her hair. Hold on to that section of hair with one hand and comb or brush it gently with your other hand until that section is tangle-free. It's really important that you HOLD ON TO THE HAIR with that other hand because this way, if you do have to pull to get tangles out, you are pulling against your other hand instead of your child's scalp. Once that section near the end of the hair is tangle free, move your hand up and comb the couple of inches above it. Once that section is tangle-free, move up again, until that whole section of hair, from scalp to tip, is untangled; then grab another section and start over until all of the hair is combed.
Basically with this method you are:
1.) Untangling from the ENDS UP, which if you think about it, makes much more sense than trying to comb tangles out through more tangles-- think about which end you'd start at if you were trying to unknot a string with one fixed and one free end-- you wouldn't start at the fixed end-- the same logic applies to hair.
2.) Holding onto the hair as much as possible to keep all the pulling force on the hair itself / the holding hand, instead of the scalp. Pulling on the scalp is what hurts. Try not to do that.
It also helps to comb long fine hair BEFORE as well as after you wash it. This may seem counterintuitive, but hair like your daughter's is actually harder to comb when it's wet-- fine hair breaks easily and it breaks even more easily when wet. You want to untangle your child's hair, not break it.
As far as the cutting question goes, what does you daughter want? I am generally a fan of letting kids decide what to do with their own hair, as long as it doesn't cause huge maintenance issues. I think the long-hair maintenance issues are probably solvable for you with a little patience and practice, but since this has been such a traumatic experience for your daughter she might indeed be much happier with short hair. I don't think this should be an argument between her parents without any input from her, though.
posted by BlueJae at 11:00 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
You can do this with any comb or brush-- you don't need a special one.
Grab a small section of hair NEAR THE END of your child's hair length. You want to be no more than couple of inches up from the end of her hair. Hold on to that section of hair with one hand and comb or brush it gently with your other hand until that section is tangle-free. It's really important that you HOLD ON TO THE HAIR with that other hand because this way, if you do have to pull to get tangles out, you are pulling against your other hand instead of your child's scalp. Once that section near the end of the hair is tangle free, move your hand up and comb the couple of inches above it. Once that section is tangle-free, move up again, until that whole section of hair, from scalp to tip, is untangled; then grab another section and start over until all of the hair is combed.
Basically with this method you are:
1.) Untangling from the ENDS UP, which if you think about it, makes much more sense than trying to comb tangles out through more tangles-- think about which end you'd start at if you were trying to unknot a string with one fixed and one free end-- you wouldn't start at the fixed end-- the same logic applies to hair.
2.) Holding onto the hair as much as possible to keep all the pulling force on the hair itself / the holding hand, instead of the scalp. Pulling on the scalp is what hurts. Try not to do that.
It also helps to comb long fine hair BEFORE as well as after you wash it. This may seem counterintuitive, but hair like your daughter's is actually harder to comb when it's wet-- fine hair breaks easily and it breaks even more easily when wet. You want to untangle your child's hair, not break it.
As far as the cutting question goes, what does you daughter want? I am generally a fan of letting kids decide what to do with their own hair, as long as it doesn't cause huge maintenance issues. I think the long-hair maintenance issues are probably solvable for you with a little patience and practice, but since this has been such a traumatic experience for your daughter she might indeed be much happier with short hair. I don't think this should be an argument between her parents without any input from her, though.
posted by BlueJae at 11:00 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
Whoa, this is a nasty situation.
You don't want your daughter to suffer and learn that suffering for beauty is necessary.
You also don't want this turning into a power struggle between you and your wife, while your daughter feels her hair is somehow responsible for all this!
I agree that you should have a non-loaded conversation during a quiet time where you ask with genuine interest why long hair is important to your wife. Ask her about her own hair, growing up.
Let her know how strongly you feel about this and also why you feel this strongly (about your own childhood).
Avoid arguing about facts or appeals to authority ("the internet/some experts/whoever says that what you are doing is bad, because!"). Facts will never convince someone who has emotional reasons.
Maybe you can come to a compromise - the long hair stays but you would like to brush them yourself, for your own piece of mind.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:30 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
You don't want your daughter to suffer and learn that suffering for beauty is necessary.
You also don't want this turning into a power struggle between you and your wife, while your daughter feels her hair is somehow responsible for all this!
I agree that you should have a non-loaded conversation during a quiet time where you ask with genuine interest why long hair is important to your wife. Ask her about her own hair, growing up.
Let her know how strongly you feel about this and also why you feel this strongly (about your own childhood).
Avoid arguing about facts or appeals to authority ("the internet/some experts/whoever says that what you are doing is bad, because!"). Facts will never convince someone who has emotional reasons.
Maybe you can come to a compromise - the long hair stays but you would like to brush them yourself, for your own piece of mind.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:30 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would be furious with a partner who was indifferent to hurting my kid. That's unacceptable. Your wife is behaving bizarrely.
I am not sure what to do about that. I'd try to take over the combing.
And I'd try to steer her towards a haircut. My fine-haired daughter never had a haircut at all until fairly recently, at 7. It was a lot of tedious combing work. (The "your daughter can be responsible for her own hair care" is okay advice but not totally realistic for all the work required for a tangle-prone younger kid; it's unlikely that she'll be able to do all of her hair care herself at that age.) Still, she liked the long hair, so we kept it, until she didn't like the long hair. She has a very cute bob now, and things are a lot easier and we're both a lot happier.
posted by kmennie at 1:33 PM on July 1, 2015
I am not sure what to do about that. I'd try to take over the combing.
And I'd try to steer her towards a haircut. My fine-haired daughter never had a haircut at all until fairly recently, at 7. It was a lot of tedious combing work. (The "your daughter can be responsible for her own hair care" is okay advice but not totally realistic for all the work required for a tangle-prone younger kid; it's unlikely that she'll be able to do all of her hair care herself at that age.) Still, she liked the long hair, so we kept it, until she didn't like the long hair. She has a very cute bob now, and things are a lot easier and we're both a lot happier.
posted by kmennie at 1:33 PM on July 1, 2015
Seconding BlueJae's advice!
When I was a kid I was hyper-sensitive to a lot of stimuli (still am) and when my mother combed my hair it genuinely hurt like hell. One day my dad took over, and did something to what BlueJae describes, and it was so so so much better.
posted by phoenix_rising at 2:32 PM on July 1, 2015
When I was a kid I was hyper-sensitive to a lot of stimuli (still am) and when my mother combed my hair it genuinely hurt like hell. One day my dad took over, and did something to what BlueJae describes, and it was so so so much better.
posted by phoenix_rising at 2:32 PM on July 1, 2015
There is a lot of consensus here, I hope it is useful for you. I'm in to support that it might be that your wife doesn't know or understand your daughter's issues. My mom and stepmom both had very different hair from mine, and both had short(ish) hair as children. I hated it when they even touched my long, tangly hair. It was my grandmother who taught me what to do - being from a generation where all girls had long hair.
It is all about routine: first of all, hair needs to be cut at least every six months. With my own daughters, I called it "to cut it long" when they where small, and they were worried I would cut it off. In the 4-5 first years, I did it myself, after that they came with me to the hairdresser.
Wash with shampoo once a week - no more. If possible, rinse it with water every day or every second day.
Hair needs to be detangled completely every morning. I agree with those who advise against detangler - it works in the beginning, but it does something over time that makes the hair break and stick. Whoever invented it probably imagined little long-haired girls get a shampoo every night. Good luck with that.
Everything else important about morning detangling has been said already.
Braid every night. No exceptions. Two side-braids are better than one at the back. Use professional bands to tie the ends. It's good to braid semi-dry hair, and then put a smooth towel on the pillow to soak up excess moisture. You remove the towel before you go to bed.
One thing I didn't learn from my mother(s) or even my grandmother, is that long hair needs time-consuming care. I learned that from friends' mothers. If she wants long hair, you need to talk about how that means it must be braided or controlled in other ways a lot of the time, and needs to be brushed or combed often (but not too often) when loose. It needs to be kept clean, and in good shape. When I was very young, I imagined that some people just had amazing hair, and I was really unlucky that I had to deal with all that maintenance. Being frank about this makes it easier, even for five-year olds, to prioritize.
With my first daughter, I was not rigorous enough, and at one point I cut her hair off in a fit of anger, because I felt she didn't cooperate. She really resented it, but yes, discipline became easier after that. With number two, and now with my foster child, I have become better at using arguments that work with small girls. And brushing hair in front of the TV. As soon as the routine is established, it becomes lovely and loving daily rituals, but there is a period of transition where you need to be very disciplined as the adult. (Both my girls were completely bald until they were 2, and the long hair came slowly, so I couldn't establish a routine from infanthood)
posted by mumimor at 3:02 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
It is all about routine: first of all, hair needs to be cut at least every six months. With my own daughters, I called it "to cut it long" when they where small, and they were worried I would cut it off. In the 4-5 first years, I did it myself, after that they came with me to the hairdresser.
Wash with shampoo once a week - no more. If possible, rinse it with water every day or every second day.
Hair needs to be detangled completely every morning. I agree with those who advise against detangler - it works in the beginning, but it does something over time that makes the hair break and stick. Whoever invented it probably imagined little long-haired girls get a shampoo every night. Good luck with that.
Everything else important about morning detangling has been said already.
Braid every night. No exceptions. Two side-braids are better than one at the back. Use professional bands to tie the ends. It's good to braid semi-dry hair, and then put a smooth towel on the pillow to soak up excess moisture. You remove the towel before you go to bed.
One thing I didn't learn from my mother(s) or even my grandmother, is that long hair needs time-consuming care. I learned that from friends' mothers. If she wants long hair, you need to talk about how that means it must be braided or controlled in other ways a lot of the time, and needs to be brushed or combed often (but not too often) when loose. It needs to be kept clean, and in good shape. When I was very young, I imagined that some people just had amazing hair, and I was really unlucky that I had to deal with all that maintenance. Being frank about this makes it easier, even for five-year olds, to prioritize.
With my first daughter, I was not rigorous enough, and at one point I cut her hair off in a fit of anger, because I felt she didn't cooperate. She really resented it, but yes, discipline became easier after that. With number two, and now with my foster child, I have become better at using arguments that work with small girls. And brushing hair in front of the TV. As soon as the routine is established, it becomes lovely and loving daily rituals, but there is a period of transition where you need to be very disciplined as the adult. (Both my girls were completely bald until they were 2, and the long hair came slowly, so I couldn't establish a routine from infanthood)
posted by mumimor at 3:02 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
From a fellow super-fine-haired person whose hair will tangle to the point of making dreadlocks all on its own, please understand that having your hair yanked really can be excruciatingly painful. Even factoring in some hyperbole, it's still really damn painful. Hair combing != ripping knotted hair out of the scalp. My mother got so frustrated with my tears and my tangly hair that she cut it all off, and I have never forgiven her for changing how I looked without consulting me.
Finger combing before you even touch a comb or brush helps; getting a silk or satin pillowcase helps; and grabbing the hair away from the scalp and then brushing/combing it helps a lot.
If you can teach your daughter how to brush her own hair, it'll help, because she'll be able to both anticipate any pain, learn how hard to pull without it hurting, how to grab her hair, and feel more in control of the whole endeavor. At the very least, let her help you (not your wife, who seems hellbent on causing pain). Yeah, her hair won't look as good as when an adult does it, but you know, she's a kid, not a beauty pageant contestant! It'll be fine! The world won't end!
posted by culfinglin at 3:29 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Finger combing before you even touch a comb or brush helps; getting a silk or satin pillowcase helps; and grabbing the hair away from the scalp and then brushing/combing it helps a lot.
If you can teach your daughter how to brush her own hair, it'll help, because she'll be able to both anticipate any pain, learn how hard to pull without it hurting, how to grab her hair, and feel more in control of the whole endeavor. At the very least, let her help you (not your wife, who seems hellbent on causing pain). Yeah, her hair won't look as good as when an adult does it, but you know, she's a kid, not a beauty pageant contestant! It'll be fine! The world won't end!
posted by culfinglin at 3:29 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Other folks have said this, but maybe not as explicitly as I want to say it -- what stands out for me is that you feel like your wife is hurting your daughter so badly that you can't watch. In a situation like that, even if you don't think it rises to the level of "child abuse," it is still your responsibility as a parent to say "Hey. This isn't okay. You can't torture our child like this." Even if "torture" is maybe hyperbolic.
So that's where I think you should start to approach this -- saying to your wife that you don't think it is okay. She hasn't gotten used to it and she's clearly suffering. If the kid cares what her hair looks like, she should have a say, so I would tell your wife you want to have a family meeting about combing. Tell the kid it is clear that she doesn't like having her hair combed. Does she want to try a short haircut? Or can she work on helping more with combing?
And if she wants to keep it long, there's some good advice here about conditioner and frequent trims. I didn't see anyone mention wide combs, but we had a super wide toothed comb, more like a pick, for a kid with long straight hair. Comb from the bottom up -- get the last inch straight, then move up so you're working out the last two inches. Then work out the last three inches. All with that nice wide comb. Bluejae describes this method very well above.
posted by amandabee at 3:41 PM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
So that's where I think you should start to approach this -- saying to your wife that you don't think it is okay. She hasn't gotten used to it and she's clearly suffering. If the kid cares what her hair looks like, she should have a say, so I would tell your wife you want to have a family meeting about combing. Tell the kid it is clear that she doesn't like having her hair combed. Does she want to try a short haircut? Or can she work on helping more with combing?
And if she wants to keep it long, there's some good advice here about conditioner and frequent trims. I didn't see anyone mention wide combs, but we had a super wide toothed comb, more like a pick, for a kid with long straight hair. Comb from the bottom up -- get the last inch straight, then move up so you're working out the last two inches. Then work out the last three inches. All with that nice wide comb. Bluejae describes this method very well above.
posted by amandabee at 3:41 PM on July 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
At 3 my daughter requested an undercut, at 4 a mohawk, then a KStew kind of pixie bob thing, at 5 another undercut. Your daughter is, 100%, able to choose her hair now but the question is if you and your wife will allow it. I have seen my friends sob until they choke when their daughter chooses short hair. I've seen little girls get grounded and hit for cutting their own hair. I've seen little girls punished with deliberately bad haircuts because they disobeyed their parents. I've seen little girls be threatened with punishment if they cried while having their hair 'brushed' (read: yanked, pulled, ripped out at the roots). I've seen little girls be told they aren't allowed to come home if they get nits. Hair and little girls is fraught with gender and control issues.
I understand the drive to hide but you are doing your child a disservice - there is a fine line between 'never undermine your partner' and 'condone abusive behaviour' and refusing to allow you to brush your daughter's hair because you try not to hurt her is coming right up on that line, and you know it. I'd suggest talking to your wife - not while it's happening - and present what you would like the solution to be. Work out why she's so adamant about long hair, about it hurting your daughter, about you not doing it. Because to your wife it's probably just a 'thing that has to be done' and she's doing it, and mixed up in there will be ideas about gender, performance, control, behaviour. If the rest of your child rearing philosophies are based around control, authority, and that kind of 'stop crying' thing, then it's no wonder it occurs with this too. So work out what your hard lines are here - no more deliberately aggressive brushing, you doing the brushing, whatever - then work from there.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:56 PM on July 1, 2015 [20 favorites]
I understand the drive to hide but you are doing your child a disservice - there is a fine line between 'never undermine your partner' and 'condone abusive behaviour' and refusing to allow you to brush your daughter's hair because you try not to hurt her is coming right up on that line, and you know it. I'd suggest talking to your wife - not while it's happening - and present what you would like the solution to be. Work out why she's so adamant about long hair, about it hurting your daughter, about you not doing it. Because to your wife it's probably just a 'thing that has to be done' and she's doing it, and mixed up in there will be ideas about gender, performance, control, behaviour. If the rest of your child rearing philosophies are based around control, authority, and that kind of 'stop crying' thing, then it's no wonder it occurs with this too. So work out what your hard lines are here - no more deliberately aggressive brushing, you doing the brushing, whatever - then work from there.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:56 PM on July 1, 2015 [20 favorites]
We had a girl with long, very thick tangly slightly wavy hair. She always wanted it long. We never had a problem because of the routine. Hair was brushed and plaited fairly loosely every night and in the morning taken out of overnight plait, brushed (no tangles because of overnight plait) and then french plaited for the day. At her school girls had to have their hair tied back anyway. In the evening, after bath, french plait was undone, hair brushed and then loosely plaited for the night.
After shampoo, we used a lot of conditioner and combed it through with wide toothed comb. This was not painful nor time consuming. Then, rinsed and combed again. Dried bit by bit with brush and hairdryer and then plaited.Again, not difficult nor time consuming. It was never allowed to get into a tangled mess.
She did wear it down on occasions but there were never tears nor was it difficult. I asked her if she remembered all the time I plaited and combed and she said no, not really.
We didn't shampoo every day only when necessary. Her hair didn't get very dirty or sweaty at that age. And she was very sporty and active.
posted by claptrap at 5:10 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
After shampoo, we used a lot of conditioner and combed it through with wide toothed comb. This was not painful nor time consuming. Then, rinsed and combed again. Dried bit by bit with brush and hairdryer and then plaited.Again, not difficult nor time consuming. It was never allowed to get into a tangled mess.
She did wear it down on occasions but there were never tears nor was it difficult. I asked her if she remembered all the time I plaited and combed and she said no, not really.
We didn't shampoo every day only when necessary. Her hair didn't get very dirty or sweaty at that age. And she was very sporty and active.
posted by claptrap at 5:10 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh my, please don't let your daughter suffer like this any longer. I have always had an extremely sensitive scalp and my mother tortured my as a kid. I often have hair stylists surprised at how sensitive my scalp is, but it doesn't change the fact that it is just that sensitive. Don't let anyone convince you or your daughter that this doesn't hurt.
Just reading your post made me super sad.
posted by murrey at 9:49 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just reading your post made me super sad.
posted by murrey at 9:49 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to chime in one more time on the issue of “OMG COMBING HAIR SHOULD NEVER BE PAINFUL THIS IS NOT OKAY”
With my particular hair and scalp, there is a certain amount of pain involved in combing tangles out of my hair that is, indeed, inevitable. I use all of the advice mentioned in this thread. I have had long hair and short hair. In my everyday life, I am not some sort of glamor girl who suffers for beauty – I wear comfortable shoes and bras, little to no makeup most days, and very simple hairstyles. And the only time in my life when I haven’t had *some* pain combing my hair after washing is when it grew in after chemo and it was basically a buzz cut. So, while reducing the discomfort of combing is ABSOLUTELY an important thing to do, I just don’t want you to feel like some kind of failure if you’re not able to 100% eliminate all of it. Having *some* discomfort isn’t *necessarily* teaching her to “suffer for beauty” if you’ve done your best in good faith.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:45 AM on July 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
With my particular hair and scalp, there is a certain amount of pain involved in combing tangles out of my hair that is, indeed, inevitable. I use all of the advice mentioned in this thread. I have had long hair and short hair. In my everyday life, I am not some sort of glamor girl who suffers for beauty – I wear comfortable shoes and bras, little to no makeup most days, and very simple hairstyles. And the only time in my life when I haven’t had *some* pain combing my hair after washing is when it grew in after chemo and it was basically a buzz cut. So, while reducing the discomfort of combing is ABSOLUTELY an important thing to do, I just don’t want you to feel like some kind of failure if you’re not able to 100% eliminate all of it. Having *some* discomfort isn’t *necessarily* teaching her to “suffer for beauty” if you’ve done your best in good faith.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:45 AM on July 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
My daughter had the same fine, tangly, long hair issue, and it was surprisingly stressful. I think my advice to you would be to consider that if this is the kind of thing that is going to damage your wife's relationship to your daughter, then not doing this one thing will not change that. What I mean is, if the hair combing is part of a larger pattern of indifference or selfishness on your wife's part, then the horse is probably already out of the barn on that and she and your daughter are going to have to deal with that in whatever ways they can. Whereas if your wife has an otherwise great and loving relationship with your daughter, this specific issue is not going to cancel out that good relationship. Does that make sense?
Also, try one of this type of tangle-free brushes, if you haven't already.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:53 AM on July 1, 2015 [3 favorites]