What happens after a passerby reports a violent crime?
July 1, 2015 6:44 AM Subscribe
Witnessed a violent street crime, called 911, and described the agressor. What next?
A couple months ago, I was out for a walk near my neighbourhood (in Toronto) and randomly witnessed a street fight escalate- someone was slashed. The two people clearly knew each other, and it wouldn't be a stretch to guess that both were frequent drug users (other witnesses who had a passing familiarity with the two people said the same).
I called 911 on my mobile phone, gave the location and accurately described the aggressor and the victim. The dispatcher asked for my first name, which I gave. I think another passerby called the police as well.
I was still nearby when the emergency response providers arrived. While I did not see the arrest, I'm fairly confident the aggressor was arrested- there wasn't time for them to get very far, and they were distinctive-looking. I am also pretty confident the victim was ultimately ok- the injuries looked unpleasant but non-life-threatening, thankfully.
For me, the most unsettling detail is that the incident was witnessed by about 15 people, yet I believe only 2 of us called the police. It scares me that the neighbours- who know the aggressor- saw the attack and chose not to call in; I interpret this to mean they are afraid of repercussions for snitching.
What will happen now? Is my part in this over, or will the police call me again for more info?
My main concern is that I do not want to go to court and testify in the presence of the aggressor- the incident happened close to my home, and the aggressor looked absolutely batshit violent, out of control, and frankly terrifying.
I already described everything I saw- there's nothing more for me to add. I believe my phone description helped the police arrest the right person; great. Beyond that, what are my legal and moral obligations?
Any advice would be appreciated; thank you.
A couple months ago, I was out for a walk near my neighbourhood (in Toronto) and randomly witnessed a street fight escalate- someone was slashed. The two people clearly knew each other, and it wouldn't be a stretch to guess that both were frequent drug users (other witnesses who had a passing familiarity with the two people said the same).
I called 911 on my mobile phone, gave the location and accurately described the aggressor and the victim. The dispatcher asked for my first name, which I gave. I think another passerby called the police as well.
I was still nearby when the emergency response providers arrived. While I did not see the arrest, I'm fairly confident the aggressor was arrested- there wasn't time for them to get very far, and they were distinctive-looking. I am also pretty confident the victim was ultimately ok- the injuries looked unpleasant but non-life-threatening, thankfully.
For me, the most unsettling detail is that the incident was witnessed by about 15 people, yet I believe only 2 of us called the police. It scares me that the neighbours- who know the aggressor- saw the attack and chose not to call in; I interpret this to mean they are afraid of repercussions for snitching.
What will happen now? Is my part in this over, or will the police call me again for more info?
My main concern is that I do not want to go to court and testify in the presence of the aggressor- the incident happened close to my home, and the aggressor looked absolutely batshit violent, out of control, and frankly terrifying.
I already described everything I saw- there's nothing more for me to add. I believe my phone description helped the police arrest the right person; great. Beyond that, what are my legal and moral obligations?
Any advice would be appreciated; thank you.
You did the right thing.
First off, based on how long ago this was, I don't think you're going to be involved any further if the cops haven't talked to you again.
I have been in the same position, in Toronto.
What will happen now?
If the police pursue a further investigation or charges, they know where to find you and will likely call you to provide a witness statement.
Meantime, write down everything you saw, as it happened. Date, time, linear progression of events. That way, you'll have it handy if they do.
Moreover, the more credible your witness statement is, the more likely it is that you may not end up having to testify in the event they subpoena you because the guy might take a plea bargain.
In speak from experience.
In my situation: I saw a man beating the shit out of a woman on the street in front of my house, broad daylight in the early evening. She was pregnant. I called 911 and the cops were there in no time, because they mut have been right around the corner. I saw them arrest the guy.
The cops told me to go home and they'd call me.
Here's what happened when they followed up:
About an hour later another cop came by to take my statement. In the meantime I wrote down everything I saw in exquisite detail. When she finished writing down everything I said, the cop told me it was "The best witness statement I've ever taken." I was rather pleased with myself, if still traumatized by what I had witnessed.
About a month and a half later, a letter from Toronto Police appeared in the mailbox. It instructed me to go to HQ on College Street to pick up a subpoena. I did that, and the subpoena I was served with contained the details of when I was required to appear in court, the courthouse location, detective working the case, etc. I found out that my work policy covered days off if you were called as a witness (legally employers have to AFAIK), so I took the day off work and went to court on the appointed day. I just presented my subpoena to a clerk and they told me to go wait in the hall by a certain courtroom. The detective and Crown working the case came and found me, reviewed my statement from the cop's notebook to make sure I was fine with it, and told me to hang out and chill until they needed me.
I ended up not having to testify because I gave a rock solid independent witness statement and the Crown offered a plea that was 18 months in jail, plus probation for two years. When the defence lawyer came out to talk to me in the hallway, he seemed slightly annoyed by the thoroughness of the statement.
"You're sure this is what you saw?"
"Absolutely, no trace of doubt in my mind. I wrote it down minutes after seeing it."
He sighed and went back in and took the plea for his client.
Long story short, if not for my appearance in court, this guy would have walked.
The woman who was beaten was apparently refusing to come to court.
In speaking to the detective and the Crown after everything wrapped up, they walked me through this guy's history. He had beaten this woman before, even more savagely than this incident I witnessed.
I have no regrets about stepping forward to testify even though this guy could have presumably tracked down where I lived.
The Crown said to me that in her X years of prosecutions, she had only ever once had a witness suffer repercussions for testifying, but that was because the accused and the witness had a personal history that she was unaware of at trial.
So, to your question about the moral obligation: I think you have one, as a citizen, to give a witness statement if asked, and to appear in court if you're subpoenaed.
Legally, if you are served with a subpoena, you have to show up or you may be found in contempt of court, and charged accordingly. This could mean a fine or jail time.
But again, even if you are subpoenaed, you may not even need to testify.
They may have other witnesses have what they need.
Anyway, since a few months have elapsed with no follow-up from the cops, I'd bet good money that this is probably not going to involve you any further.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:34 AM on July 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
First off, based on how long ago this was, I don't think you're going to be involved any further if the cops haven't talked to you again.
I have been in the same position, in Toronto.
What will happen now?
If the police pursue a further investigation or charges, they know where to find you and will likely call you to provide a witness statement.
Meantime, write down everything you saw, as it happened. Date, time, linear progression of events. That way, you'll have it handy if they do.
Moreover, the more credible your witness statement is, the more likely it is that you may not end up having to testify in the event they subpoena you because the guy might take a plea bargain.
In speak from experience.
In my situation: I saw a man beating the shit out of a woman on the street in front of my house, broad daylight in the early evening. She was pregnant. I called 911 and the cops were there in no time, because they mut have been right around the corner. I saw them arrest the guy.
The cops told me to go home and they'd call me.
Here's what happened when they followed up:
About an hour later another cop came by to take my statement. In the meantime I wrote down everything I saw in exquisite detail. When she finished writing down everything I said, the cop told me it was "The best witness statement I've ever taken." I was rather pleased with myself, if still traumatized by what I had witnessed.
About a month and a half later, a letter from Toronto Police appeared in the mailbox. It instructed me to go to HQ on College Street to pick up a subpoena. I did that, and the subpoena I was served with contained the details of when I was required to appear in court, the courthouse location, detective working the case, etc. I found out that my work policy covered days off if you were called as a witness (legally employers have to AFAIK), so I took the day off work and went to court on the appointed day. I just presented my subpoena to a clerk and they told me to go wait in the hall by a certain courtroom. The detective and Crown working the case came and found me, reviewed my statement from the cop's notebook to make sure I was fine with it, and told me to hang out and chill until they needed me.
I ended up not having to testify because I gave a rock solid independent witness statement and the Crown offered a plea that was 18 months in jail, plus probation for two years. When the defence lawyer came out to talk to me in the hallway, he seemed slightly annoyed by the thoroughness of the statement.
"You're sure this is what you saw?"
"Absolutely, no trace of doubt in my mind. I wrote it down minutes after seeing it."
He sighed and went back in and took the plea for his client.
Long story short, if not for my appearance in court, this guy would have walked.
The woman who was beaten was apparently refusing to come to court.
In speaking to the detective and the Crown after everything wrapped up, they walked me through this guy's history. He had beaten this woman before, even more savagely than this incident I witnessed.
I have no regrets about stepping forward to testify even though this guy could have presumably tracked down where I lived.
The Crown said to me that in her X years of prosecutions, she had only ever once had a witness suffer repercussions for testifying, but that was because the accused and the witness had a personal history that she was unaware of at trial.
So, to your question about the moral obligation: I think you have one, as a citizen, to give a witness statement if asked, and to appear in court if you're subpoenaed.
Legally, if you are served with a subpoena, you have to show up or you may be found in contempt of court, and charged accordingly. This could mean a fine or jail time.
But again, even if you are subpoenaed, you may not even need to testify.
They may have other witnesses have what they need.
Anyway, since a few months have elapsed with no follow-up from the cops, I'd bet good money that this is probably not going to involve you any further.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:34 AM on July 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
I wouldn't actually infer that people were worried about repercussions from the low rate of calling the police. Once there are lots of witnesses, everyone feels less responsibility to call or otherwise intervene. This "bystander effect" is very common, and 2 out of 15 people calling sounds completely normal. (Besides, some people didn't have a cell phone on them, and some just didn't react well in an emergency.)
posted by cogitron at 7:49 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by cogitron at 7:49 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also would not infer people were too afraid to call it in. If three people are there together, or just standing near to each other, and see the fourth call, they won't call. If people are familiar with/friends of the people fighting, they might not call because "they do that all that time and we never need the police". If you're very upset by what you're seeing and making your own phone call, you might not notice people calling.
I was once part of a very large crowd of people walking to the commuter train station when a cab driver ran down a pedestrian. I called 911 and would have sworn that no-one else around me had called, but the dispatcher told me that there had already been several reports and as I talked to the people around me while we were waiting, I found that not only had others called, many had chosen not to because they had heard someone else make the call.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:11 AM on July 1, 2015
I was once part of a very large crowd of people walking to the commuter train station when a cab driver ran down a pedestrian. I called 911 and would have sworn that no-one else around me had called, but the dispatcher told me that there had already been several reports and as I talked to the people around me while we were waiting, I found that not only had others called, many had chosen not to because they had heard someone else make the call.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:11 AM on July 1, 2015
The chances that you may be called to testify is very small to none. If the crazies were drug dealers and they caught them 'red handed' as the cliche goes, there's enough physical evidence to convict both with assault and battery with bodily injury, with deadly weapon enhancement (not too sure about local law variations) the authorities would not need your testimony.
The "someone else will call the cops" syndrome is well documented. It's not that other witnesses are afraid, it's more like "who gives a **** about druggies" type of apathy.
I've called the cops twice. Once it was two bums fighting across the street... albeit a 6 lane street. I remained on the line with 911 until the patrol car pulled up and two cops jumped out and separated the two combatants. Never heard about what happened to them, figured I did my civic duty. Another time I was on a city bus when some young welp tried to challenge an old gangster (we're talking 50's to 60's) to a fight because somebody got dissed. When the young welp decided to have the word face to face, everybody else got off the bus. Just my luck an unmarked cruiser drove by and I flagged it down, told the officer there's a fight onboard. Officer got on the radio and I swear with in 60 seconds three cruisers (well, we were within 4 blocks of a police station) flanked the bus and the officers all came out with nightsticks and removed the offenders. Didn't even give my name that time. I figure they eventually got the city bus driver to give a statement.
Again, more about apathy than fear, IMHO, of course.
posted by kschang at 9:36 AM on July 1, 2015
The "someone else will call the cops" syndrome is well documented. It's not that other witnesses are afraid, it's more like "who gives a **** about druggies" type of apathy.
I've called the cops twice. Once it was two bums fighting across the street... albeit a 6 lane street. I remained on the line with 911 until the patrol car pulled up and two cops jumped out and separated the two combatants. Never heard about what happened to them, figured I did my civic duty. Another time I was on a city bus when some young welp tried to challenge an old gangster (we're talking 50's to 60's) to a fight because somebody got dissed. When the young welp decided to have the word face to face, everybody else got off the bus. Just my luck an unmarked cruiser drove by and I flagged it down, told the officer there's a fight onboard. Officer got on the radio and I swear with in 60 seconds three cruisers (well, we were within 4 blocks of a police station) flanked the bus and the officers all came out with nightsticks and removed the offenders. Didn't even give my name that time. I figure they eventually got the city bus driver to give a statement.
Again, more about apathy than fear, IMHO, of course.
posted by kschang at 9:36 AM on July 1, 2015
In general, its a good idea to write down everything you remember as soon as possible, even if you never show it to anyone. Memories fade quicker than you !might imagine, and it's easy to get confused by what other people say.
posted by SemiSalt at 11:13 AM on July 1, 2015
posted by SemiSalt at 11:13 AM on July 1, 2015
If the police were going to get witness statements from you, they would very likely have done so on the day of -- not weeks later. A tiny minority of arrests in Canada lead to a trial that involves testimony, so the odds of that happening are very slim right from the start and become even slimmer when you factor in the fact that they didn't take a statement from you at the time.
posted by jacquilynne at 2:35 PM on July 6, 2015
posted by jacquilynne at 2:35 PM on July 6, 2015
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The police took my statement, and when it later turned out that the victim died, I was called by someone identifying himself as a prosecuting attorney and we went over my statement again. Nothing happened after that. They may not have pressed charges, or obtained a plea. IANAL but I would imagine that even if the case comes to trial, you might not be called as a witness. If so, I would mention your concern to the prosecutor.
posted by Gelatin at 6:58 AM on July 1, 2015