Why do I punish myself like this
June 13, 2015 3:01 PM Subscribe
I was in a terrible relationship with a girl for about ten months. It was the first longterm relationship for both of us, even though we're both 27/28. Btw I am also a female.
I honestly think I reached a point where I felt fucking ridiculous and stupid and inexperienced that I just wanted the goddamn experience of dating someone in order to feel better about myself/give myself the opportunity to relate to the rest of the world better.
That said: we had a lot to talk about. In fact, the relationship was about 6 months long via long distance before the ten months of being 'together'. It was nice to have someone to talk to about lots of things, someone who agreed with a lot of things which I find pretty hard to come by. Nice to have physical closeness with another human being.
What I'm wondering now is if I let this become a relationship/stayed in this relationship because I wanted to punish myself. Why?--->
--> because I had a hunch from the start we weren't a good fit. She's fat, unmotivated and lazy, and I am pretty much the opposite. She operates so... slowly, whereas I am constantly moving, thinking, trying to do. Probably too much so, in contrast with her too little so.
--> we come from completely different cultures. Which shouldn't even be a Thing (problem) in my book but clearly sometimes these things can't mix in a relationship. For one example: in my 'culture', we don't need to be 'polite' with people we have an intimate relationship with. One time I said to her, 'c'mere!' from across the room and she got soooooooo offended. She said, 'say please', TOTALLY SERIOUSLY and I was like, fuck that shit. To me, politeness is a barrier. It can be great for some circumstances (ie professional ones or where you don't know someone so well and just want to be nice) but when you are sleeping with someone and spending so much time with them, it seems fucking odd to me to have to be polite and courteous with every little fucking thing.
--> I am successful as a designer but also have artistic aspirations. I pulled out the paints one weekend and had a fucking blast. Just the act of making marks on canvas was pure bliss. I was so excited to show her my piece. I asked her if she liked it. Shes said bluntly, "no." Now, I am all for honesty. But in this case, there was something so... off-putting about it. She is of the impression that people should be completely honest ALL THE TIME and I think that that's bullshit and that white lies are good for protecting fragile egos (like mine.) Seriously though, what harm would it have done for her to lie in this situation? I didn't even need to her to love it. It was more the fact that I had such a good time painting and was so excited about it and how she so bluntly just put it down because of her high standards on what art should be/is.
- She is terrible at fucking and I could never tell her so. I asked her to do things differently, made suggestions... none of it helped. She couldn't learn.
- She would insist to me that she is happy with who she is, that she feels confident etc. Whereas it was plain as day to me (and I think many other people) that she hated her body (she's fat) even though she's involved in fat activism. She even once told me that she didn't think she was attractive. (So like, why the F should anyone else be attracted to her?)
--> She talks in run-on sentences and makes no sense half the time. She would talk about people for the first time without ever having mentioned them and expect me to know who she was talking about. This pissed me off so goddamn much. I have actually known a couple people who do this, so really wondering where this attitude comes from.. 80% of the time I would nod along without really understanding what the hell she was talking about.
So basically what I am trying to say is, it seems clear to me now that I was trying to punish myself for something. Why would I stay in a relationship with a complete happiness-drain like this person? Someone who I pretty much loathe and find to be unmotivating, uninspiring, unattractive. Why? Why would I, why would anyone, do this to themselves? wtf is wrong with me and how can I fix it?
Part of me thinks that I maybe have this insatiable need to 'save' people. It's like I couldn't overcome how pitiful she is and wanted to 'raise her up' by dating her. How fucked up am I? No seriously. And what can I do to not be like this?
(Sorry if this seems like an obvious attempt by me to just get this stuff off my chest. I feel like I've been wanting to just shout to the world what a ridiculous person she is. I apologize if this is the wrong type of forum for this. But I honestly want to know if, given these details, someone can offer some theories as to what is going on with me that I put up with this crap for so long.)
I honestly think I reached a point where I felt fucking ridiculous and stupid and inexperienced that I just wanted the goddamn experience of dating someone in order to feel better about myself/give myself the opportunity to relate to the rest of the world better.
That said: we had a lot to talk about. In fact, the relationship was about 6 months long via long distance before the ten months of being 'together'. It was nice to have someone to talk to about lots of things, someone who agreed with a lot of things which I find pretty hard to come by. Nice to have physical closeness with another human being.
What I'm wondering now is if I let this become a relationship/stayed in this relationship because I wanted to punish myself. Why?--->
--> because I had a hunch from the start we weren't a good fit. She's fat, unmotivated and lazy, and I am pretty much the opposite. She operates so... slowly, whereas I am constantly moving, thinking, trying to do. Probably too much so, in contrast with her too little so.
--> we come from completely different cultures. Which shouldn't even be a Thing (problem) in my book but clearly sometimes these things can't mix in a relationship. For one example: in my 'culture', we don't need to be 'polite' with people we have an intimate relationship with. One time I said to her, 'c'mere!' from across the room and she got soooooooo offended. She said, 'say please', TOTALLY SERIOUSLY and I was like, fuck that shit. To me, politeness is a barrier. It can be great for some circumstances (ie professional ones or where you don't know someone so well and just want to be nice) but when you are sleeping with someone and spending so much time with them, it seems fucking odd to me to have to be polite and courteous with every little fucking thing.
--> I am successful as a designer but also have artistic aspirations. I pulled out the paints one weekend and had a fucking blast. Just the act of making marks on canvas was pure bliss. I was so excited to show her my piece. I asked her if she liked it. Shes said bluntly, "no." Now, I am all for honesty. But in this case, there was something so... off-putting about it. She is of the impression that people should be completely honest ALL THE TIME and I think that that's bullshit and that white lies are good for protecting fragile egos (like mine.) Seriously though, what harm would it have done for her to lie in this situation? I didn't even need to her to love it. It was more the fact that I had such a good time painting and was so excited about it and how she so bluntly just put it down because of her high standards on what art should be/is.
- She is terrible at fucking and I could never tell her so. I asked her to do things differently, made suggestions... none of it helped. She couldn't learn.
- She would insist to me that she is happy with who she is, that she feels confident etc. Whereas it was plain as day to me (and I think many other people) that she hated her body (she's fat) even though she's involved in fat activism. She even once told me that she didn't think she was attractive. (So like, why the F should anyone else be attracted to her?)
--> She talks in run-on sentences and makes no sense half the time. She would talk about people for the first time without ever having mentioned them and expect me to know who she was talking about. This pissed me off so goddamn much. I have actually known a couple people who do this, so really wondering where this attitude comes from.. 80% of the time I would nod along without really understanding what the hell she was talking about.
So basically what I am trying to say is, it seems clear to me now that I was trying to punish myself for something. Why would I stay in a relationship with a complete happiness-drain like this person? Someone who I pretty much loathe and find to be unmotivating, uninspiring, unattractive. Why? Why would I, why would anyone, do this to themselves? wtf is wrong with me and how can I fix it?
Part of me thinks that I maybe have this insatiable need to 'save' people. It's like I couldn't overcome how pitiful she is and wanted to 'raise her up' by dating her. How fucked up am I? No seriously. And what can I do to not be like this?
(Sorry if this seems like an obvious attempt by me to just get this stuff off my chest. I feel like I've been wanting to just shout to the world what a ridiculous person she is. I apologize if this is the wrong type of forum for this. But I honestly want to know if, given these details, someone can offer some theories as to what is going on with me that I put up with this crap for so long.)
It sounds like to me you felt like a relationship, any relationship, was better than being alone. You seem to have learned through this experience that that is not the case.
You also sound really unpleasantly angry. You've said some really terrible things about this person and most of your complaints boil down to her not being a bad person, per se, but just someone you didn't want to be in a relationship with. I think you could really benefit from some therapy. It's possible to be kind even when you are unhappy.
posted by something something at 3:09 PM on June 13, 2015 [67 favorites]
You also sound really unpleasantly angry. You've said some really terrible things about this person and most of your complaints boil down to her not being a bad person, per se, but just someone you didn't want to be in a relationship with. I think you could really benefit from some therapy. It's possible to be kind even when you are unhappy.
posted by something something at 3:09 PM on June 13, 2015 [67 favorites]
You can approach relationships without being entirely selfish. Don't have relationships for the experience. Don't date people you consider to be so far beneath you. In fact don't consider other people to be beneath you. Even if, as you mention several times, they are fat.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:11 PM on June 13, 2015 [41 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:11 PM on June 13, 2015 [41 favorites]
One of the best pieces of advice I can offer you is to treat people when you are breaking up with them with the same dignity and respect you would at the height of your relationship.
In this case it seems like you aren't doing either. If you had these thoughts in the relationship, you weren't establishing a relationship of shared dignity and respect. You were establishing a relationship of presumed superiority (yours).
I would look for therapy but also focus on treating others with respect. If you secretly think someone is fat and lazy, ok, but you don't date them and pretend to have their interests at heart.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:13 PM on June 13, 2015 [16 favorites]
In this case it seems like you aren't doing either. If you had these thoughts in the relationship, you weren't establishing a relationship of shared dignity and respect. You were establishing a relationship of presumed superiority (yours).
I would look for therapy but also focus on treating others with respect. If you secretly think someone is fat and lazy, ok, but you don't date them and pretend to have their interests at heart.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:13 PM on June 13, 2015 [16 favorites]
Things look different after a relationship ends than they do during. You cut the people you love some slack for their annoying habits and then when you don't love them anymore or are trying very hard to convince yourself you never should have loved them, you give free reign to all the things that ever bothered you. So, you weren't punishing yourself then so much as you are mentally punishing her now for not being the right person for you.
It's natural to have these thoughts but don't let yourself wallow in them too much such that they blind you to the realities of two people trying to build a life together. It's not necessary or even healthy to view exes with such a huge level of contempt past the first horrible post-breakup emotional swings.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:15 PM on June 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's natural to have these thoughts but don't let yourself wallow in them too much such that they blind you to the realities of two people trying to build a life together. It's not necessary or even healthy to view exes with such a huge level of contempt past the first horrible post-breakup emotional swings.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:15 PM on June 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Part of me thinks that I maybe have this insatiable need to 'save' people. It's like I couldn't overcome how pitiful she is and wanted to 'raise her up' by dating her.
The flipside is that being the "helper" makes you feel superior. You used her, in your opinion, inferiority to prop up your own self esteem. Probably because you don't believe that somebody who you admire would ever stay with you.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:17 PM on June 13, 2015 [17 favorites]
Heeeey, so, there are a lot of really problematic things about the way you phrased this, and if I were you I'd ask for it to be anonymized by its super cruel. And you sound really really mad. At yourself. I don't get this mad at people who haven't done awful things to me unless they are related to me and/or strongly remind me of myself. So I'm guessing that's what's going on here. Maybe ask yourself why you have these hang ups and do some work on yourself?
posted by bq at 3:18 PM on June 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by bq at 3:18 PM on June 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
You don't sound like you liked her or respected her all that much. Why date someone you don't respect?
Would you want to date someone who hated all your flaws? And who used words like fat, lazy, and pitiful to describe you?
I would highly recommend seeing a therapist to figure this out. I dated someone who treated me like I needed to be raised, like I was a fat pathetic loser who didn't know how to properly communicate under their frankly arbitrary rules (no politeness because it's a "barrier" - what does that even mean?). It messed me up six ways from Sunday. Being thought of this way by someone who purports to love you is incredibly painful.
Glad you asked this question. It's the first step towards not treating another person this way. No one deserves that, no matter how "fat "or "pathetic" they may indeed be.
For now, don't date. When you do start dating, don't date people for whom you have contempt.
posted by sockermom at 3:19 PM on June 13, 2015 [61 favorites]
Would you want to date someone who hated all your flaws? And who used words like fat, lazy, and pitiful to describe you?
I would highly recommend seeing a therapist to figure this out. I dated someone who treated me like I needed to be raised, like I was a fat pathetic loser who didn't know how to properly communicate under their frankly arbitrary rules (no politeness because it's a "barrier" - what does that even mean?). It messed me up six ways from Sunday. Being thought of this way by someone who purports to love you is incredibly painful.
Glad you asked this question. It's the first step towards not treating another person this way. No one deserves that, no matter how "fat "or "pathetic" they may indeed be.
For now, don't date. When you do start dating, don't date people for whom you have contempt.
posted by sockermom at 3:19 PM on June 13, 2015 [61 favorites]
I don't think you were trying to punish yourself by being -- and staying -- in a relationship with this woman. I think you were lonely, inexperienced, and wanted a relationship. There were things about her that you liked.
As time went on, the things about her that you didn't like became more prominent in your mind. You eventually wanted out, but you stayed in the relationship because that's what you did (and that's what most people do). Now, you've broken up, and the bad is what's stuck in your mind.
Hate to break it to you, but this is basically all part of being human. It's also toxic, and your post sounds full of anger, and I actually feel like it's a much more generalized rage than specific to your relationship that you're writing about.
Apart from letting go of your anger and seeking therapy (both of which you really could benefit from, I think), what you should do is learn from this. Don't be desperate to be in a relationship. Don't be in a relationship with someone you don't like. Don't date -- and don't continue to date! -- someone you aren't attracted to and don't respect. The fact that it's nice to have someone to be with doesn't mean you should be with just anyone.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:24 PM on June 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
As time went on, the things about her that you didn't like became more prominent in your mind. You eventually wanted out, but you stayed in the relationship because that's what you did (and that's what most people do). Now, you've broken up, and the bad is what's stuck in your mind.
Hate to break it to you, but this is basically all part of being human. It's also toxic, and your post sounds full of anger, and I actually feel like it's a much more generalized rage than specific to your relationship that you're writing about.
Apart from letting go of your anger and seeking therapy (both of which you really could benefit from, I think), what you should do is learn from this. Don't be desperate to be in a relationship. Don't be in a relationship with someone you don't like. Don't date -- and don't continue to date! -- someone you aren't attracted to and don't respect. The fact that it's nice to have someone to be with doesn't mean you should be with just anyone.
posted by J. Wilson at 3:24 PM on June 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
You answered your own question, you dated her in order to feel better about yourself. I think you owe your ex a huge apology for using her in that way and therapy to work on yourself more. It sounds like after the number you did on your girlfriend, it would be kind of you to pay for a few seperate sessions for her too.
posted by Jubey at 3:25 PM on June 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 3:25 PM on June 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
From the way you describe your ex, you come across as if you thought you were the "better" on in the relationship, you didn't want to have to be polite, but wanted white lies to protect your feelings, you seem to think because you were fit & artistic she should be grateful & try harder. Now that may just be you trying to protect your "ego" now that you have broken up, but it really does sound like you didn't want a relationship of equals you just wanted to be with someone and she'd do until someone better came along, only they didn't.
I don't think you were punishing yourself at all, based on the information you've given and the tone it was given in, I think you thought she was beneath you and so was safe to use to make you feel good about yourself. When that didn't magically work you felt like it was a punishment.
posted by wwax at 3:41 PM on June 13, 2015 [15 favorites]
I don't think you were punishing yourself at all, based on the information you've given and the tone it was given in, I think you thought she was beneath you and so was safe to use to make you feel good about yourself. When that didn't magically work you felt like it was a punishment.
posted by wwax at 3:41 PM on June 13, 2015 [15 favorites]
I feel like I've been wanting to just shout to the world what a ridiculous person she is.
it's obvious that this is your goal, but what comes off is how cruel you are. it doesn't sound like you put up with any "crap" that wasn't self inflicted by getting into a relationship so you could feel superior. you fix that by becoming a better person, maybe through therapy.
posted by nadawi at 3:45 PM on June 13, 2015 [29 favorites]
it's obvious that this is your goal, but what comes off is how cruel you are. it doesn't sound like you put up with any "crap" that wasn't self inflicted by getting into a relationship so you could feel superior. you fix that by becoming a better person, maybe through therapy.
posted by nadawi at 3:45 PM on June 13, 2015 [29 favorites]
We don't know how fucked up you are, sorry! But you sound a little trolling with all the fat comments so i question how genuine you are.... But you do sound mean and angry and like you're begging for attention... Definitely therapy!
posted by catspajammies at 3:55 PM on June 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by catspajammies at 3:55 PM on June 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I just want to clarify that *I* don't equate fat with lazy or unattractive. I've known really sexy people who also happen to be fat (please don't take this like 'I have black friends' either.) For me, it's more about the *vibe* people give off, if they exude confidence in themselves no matter the bodytype or whatever, that is the difference between attractive and not. And with her... the vibe is insecurity.
The situation here is that she actually is fat, and ALSO happens to be lazy. Just to give an example: she works in one sector and hates it. She talks about doing something else all the time. I ask her when she's going to make the next step to make it a reality. She tells me she wishes someone would just give her a job in the field because she's qualified. I say, OK, but how do you show that you are qualified? Where is your body of work? And she says, well it doesn't matter if I have a body of work or not. I say, well, why would someone believe you're committed to this dream if you don't even want to put in the work to reach this supposed dream? She says, well, I don't have the time to do it with all the other things I'm doing right now (still trying to figure out what are all these things she's doing..)
That, to me, is Lazy. And has nothing to do with being fat.
Anyway, yes, I've said a lot of cruel things about her and I don't need to say any more.
I could certainly use therapy, but am not in the position to go right now (though I have been to much of it in the past when I was in one time zone consistently and had a steady source of income, neither of which are the case at the moment.)
I've definitely learned lessons from this. I think Omnomnom was getting to something. Yes. Why do I have such a need to feel superior? And you're one million percent right. I have never felt like someone I admire would feel the same way about me. So... what do I do about it?
sockermom: when I say politeness is a barrier, I mean that to me, saying 'please' and 'thank you' in certain situations feels unnecessary. To me there are formal relationships and close, intimate relationships, and using politeness/formality in intimate relationships is just weird. I'm not saying it should never be used... but for her to get mad at me for saying excitedly, 'hey, c'mere!' when I wanted to show her something I thought she would like (she wanted me to say, "please come here" instead) was just...... strange. And made me feel like a little child. Like she was chiding me for being a little child. "Say please!" Fuck that.
Re: what I want in a relationship. I -DO- want to be in an 'equal' relationship. I've been waiting my whole life for this... People have been raising me on a pedestal my whole life, for reasons we don't need to get into. I'm fucking tired of this, too. All I want in the world is to be surrounded by people who inspire me. I'm tired of trying to convince myself that people who don't inspire me do. What am I supposed to do about that?
I actually think that I became a more calm person while in this relationship. Believe it or not. I know it did good for me in some ways.
Am I cruel for stating my feelings on all of this? Really? There was a time where she told me that SHE felt bad for ME and stayed in the relationship because she didn't want to hurt me. So I'm pretty sure things went both ways.
posted by otterboxdefender at 3:56 PM on June 13, 2015
The situation here is that she actually is fat, and ALSO happens to be lazy. Just to give an example: she works in one sector and hates it. She talks about doing something else all the time. I ask her when she's going to make the next step to make it a reality. She tells me she wishes someone would just give her a job in the field because she's qualified. I say, OK, but how do you show that you are qualified? Where is your body of work? And she says, well it doesn't matter if I have a body of work or not. I say, well, why would someone believe you're committed to this dream if you don't even want to put in the work to reach this supposed dream? She says, well, I don't have the time to do it with all the other things I'm doing right now (still trying to figure out what are all these things she's doing..)
That, to me, is Lazy. And has nothing to do with being fat.
Anyway, yes, I've said a lot of cruel things about her and I don't need to say any more.
I could certainly use therapy, but am not in the position to go right now (though I have been to much of it in the past when I was in one time zone consistently and had a steady source of income, neither of which are the case at the moment.)
I've definitely learned lessons from this. I think Omnomnom was getting to something. Yes. Why do I have such a need to feel superior? And you're one million percent right. I have never felt like someone I admire would feel the same way about me. So... what do I do about it?
sockermom: when I say politeness is a barrier, I mean that to me, saying 'please' and 'thank you' in certain situations feels unnecessary. To me there are formal relationships and close, intimate relationships, and using politeness/formality in intimate relationships is just weird. I'm not saying it should never be used... but for her to get mad at me for saying excitedly, 'hey, c'mere!' when I wanted to show her something I thought she would like (she wanted me to say, "please come here" instead) was just...... strange. And made me feel like a little child. Like she was chiding me for being a little child. "Say please!" Fuck that.
Re: what I want in a relationship. I -DO- want to be in an 'equal' relationship. I've been waiting my whole life for this... People have been raising me on a pedestal my whole life, for reasons we don't need to get into. I'm fucking tired of this, too. All I want in the world is to be surrounded by people who inspire me. I'm tired of trying to convince myself that people who don't inspire me do. What am I supposed to do about that?
I actually think that I became a more calm person while in this relationship. Believe it or not. I know it did good for me in some ways.
Am I cruel for stating my feelings on all of this? Really? There was a time where she told me that SHE felt bad for ME and stayed in the relationship because she didn't want to hurt me. So I'm pretty sure things went both ways.
posted by otterboxdefender at 3:56 PM on June 13, 2015
You sound incredibly self-loathing and honestly pretty mean.* I don't know if you dated this person to punish yourself, but I am 100% sure that the relationship had punishing effects on her (you obviously hate her).
You need an intervention. Therapy and possibly medication if your doctors agree.
*Seriously, I am a moody person myself and can be a real grouch when I'm hungry or tired, but your meanness in this post made me physically uncomfortable. I feel so, so sorry for this woman you "dated" (demeaned/hated) for 10 months. And just to clarify, I'm not talking about your point on politeness, with which I actually happen to agree.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:57 PM on June 13, 2015 [61 favorites]
You need an intervention. Therapy and possibly medication if your doctors agree.
*Seriously, I am a moody person myself and can be a real grouch when I'm hungry or tired, but your meanness in this post made me physically uncomfortable. I feel so, so sorry for this woman you "dated" (demeaned/hated) for 10 months. And just to clarify, I'm not talking about your point on politeness, with which I actually happen to agree.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:57 PM on June 13, 2015 [61 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm really sorry that some people are taking my describing her as 'fat' the wrong way. I mention it because it's a huge part of her self-identifying. And I'm not looking for attention. I'm looking for help. So I appreciate the commenters who can see this even though I may be saying some 'mean' things. I would find it really hard to believe that most people (if not everyone) has felt this way about a person or two in their lives.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:00 PM on June 13, 2015
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:00 PM on June 13, 2015
Response by poster: Schroedingersgirl, I don't hate her. I feel like she is a sad person. I hate myself for giving her attention.
I know that sounds awful. It is. It's fucking terrible. But these are my honest to god feelings and I what I'm trying to do is figure them out so I'm not so miserable.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:07 PM on June 13, 2015
I know that sounds awful. It is. It's fucking terrible. But these are my honest to god feelings and I what I'm trying to do is figure them out so I'm not so miserable.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:07 PM on June 13, 2015
This is exactly the type of situation that therapy is for. Why are you not in a position to go right now? Is it cost, financial or time? Is it fear?
posted by RainyJay at 4:08 PM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by RainyJay at 4:08 PM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Look, it's absolutely commendable to want to figure this out and feel better. That's awesome! But you need to do that with a licensed professional, not with strangers on the internet. Your combativeness in this post is really underscoring how much you could benefit from therapy, at least in my (non-professional) opinion.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:09 PM on June 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:09 PM on June 13, 2015 [14 favorites]
hypothetical questions that don't need answers in the thread - why do any of her qualities that you despise matter in making you a better person? why do you need to take her down a notch or five here, in a space where no one knows her? why is part of your self stated goal to shout to the world how ridiculous, fat, lazy, or a bad lay you found her? how does that help you? the first think you need to learn to do is to let all of that go. you can't work on you until you stop spending so much energy justifying why you pity her to yourself. it doesn't matter. insulting her over and over and over again will not move you forward one single step. you might also spend some more time contemplating previous questions you've asked yourself.
posted by nadawi at 4:09 PM on June 13, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 4:09 PM on June 13, 2015 [17 favorites]
I would find it really hard to believe that most people (if not everyone) has felt this way about a person or two in their lives.
I have absolutely never thought this way about anyone, no. The only people I know who do think this way about others are people I tend not to spend much time with, because their mockery of those they feel to be 'fat', 'lazy', or 'stupid' is quite upsetting.
Is there a reason why you dislike people so strongly and feel that they put you on a pedestal (and are therefore either below you [if you agree with their assessment] or pathetic and blind [if you disagree])?
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:18 PM on June 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
I have absolutely never thought this way about anyone, no. The only people I know who do think this way about others are people I tend not to spend much time with, because their mockery of those they feel to be 'fat', 'lazy', or 'stupid' is quite upsetting.
Is there a reason why you dislike people so strongly and feel that they put you on a pedestal (and are therefore either below you [if you agree with their assessment] or pathetic and blind [if you disagree])?
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:18 PM on June 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: RainyJay, I would go to therapy every single day if I could. I can't right now because I travel all the time and I don't have a steady income. I also happen to think that most therapists I've had are total crap. I don't know where or HOW to find a good one... therapy is not exactly something most people I know in my personal life talk about so how do I get a recommendation? How do I find a good one without spending potentially a ton of money and time going through numbers of them? I'm ready to do the work, but right now it's more about the money.
I know that I should be speaking to a professional instead of to strangers on the internet, however given my situation this is what I've chosen to do at the moment. I think that all the real talk in this thread DOES help. It's not perfect but it's something. I've seen a lot of good advice given by strangers to other strangers in various other mefi threads (why I came here in the first place.)
Nadawi-- I really don't think I'm trying to justify why I pity her... I really think I just do pity her. To the point where I don't even want to think about it, because I don't WANT to pity her, or anyone. I HATE feeling pity for people. I mentioned briefly that my whole life, people have been putting me on a pedestal. Without my request, I hope that goes without saying. Perhaps that gets to one's head a bit. I don't know what to do about that.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:20 PM on June 13, 2015
I know that I should be speaking to a professional instead of to strangers on the internet, however given my situation this is what I've chosen to do at the moment. I think that all the real talk in this thread DOES help. It's not perfect but it's something. I've seen a lot of good advice given by strangers to other strangers in various other mefi threads (why I came here in the first place.)
Nadawi-- I really don't think I'm trying to justify why I pity her... I really think I just do pity her. To the point where I don't even want to think about it, because I don't WANT to pity her, or anyone. I HATE feeling pity for people. I mentioned briefly that my whole life, people have been putting me on a pedestal. Without my request, I hope that goes without saying. Perhaps that gets to one's head a bit. I don't know what to do about that.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:20 PM on June 13, 2015
Mod note: otterboxdefender, AskMe is really not for back-and-forth discussion or freeform processing. If you need to clarify, that's fine, but at this point we need to ask you to step out of the thread and take the answers as they come. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:23 PM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:23 PM on June 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Chainsoffreedom, I "feel" like people put me on a pedestal because they have.
- People in school who would randomly come up to me and say, "you're so talented."
- Teachers who would say, "remember me when you're famous."
- Mentors-- MENTORS!!-- who would say the same.
I don't want that. I didn't ask for any of it. What I've always wanted is someone to 'take me under their wing' and teach me the ropes. I want someone to just hold my hand and guide me through life because often I sure as hell don't feel like I know what the F I'm doing, despite the bulletpoints above.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:24 PM on June 13, 2015
- People in school who would randomly come up to me and say, "you're so talented."
- Teachers who would say, "remember me when you're famous."
- Mentors-- MENTORS!!-- who would say the same.
I don't want that. I didn't ask for any of it. What I've always wanted is someone to 'take me under their wing' and teach me the ropes. I want someone to just hold my hand and guide me through life because often I sure as hell don't feel like I know what the F I'm doing, despite the bulletpoints above.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:24 PM on June 13, 2015
Response by poster: Sorry about my answering of everything. It's hard to not try and clarify everything especially when I feel like people aren't understanding me fully. But I recognize that that is the nature of the internet and things like this and so I will step out and take things as they come.
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:26 PM on June 13, 2015
posted by otterboxdefender at 4:26 PM on June 13, 2015
You feel we aren't understanding you. You should think on what approach you'd like to see us take, what information you were hoping for us to give you.
We, as a collective, are recommending self-reflection and therapy. You are deflecting these ideas, trying to justify why you're feeling what you're feeling. You don't need to justify it to us; you're using as a stand-in for you.
As the moderator has noted, this isn't the place for that. You're having AskMe take the place for therapy.
Google your location and therapy. Search for a LGBT-friendly therapist, a woman if you think that would make you more comfortable. Read through their bio; see if they can do sliding scale so you won't break the bank. Send an email or make a call; research and connect and see what you think. Make an appointment for a day you won't be travelling.
posted by RainyJay at 4:34 PM on June 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
We, as a collective, are recommending self-reflection and therapy. You are deflecting these ideas, trying to justify why you're feeling what you're feeling. You don't need to justify it to us; you're using as a stand-in for you.
As the moderator has noted, this isn't the place for that. You're having AskMe take the place for therapy.
Google your location and therapy. Search for a LGBT-friendly therapist, a woman if you think that would make you more comfortable. Read through their bio; see if they can do sliding scale so you won't break the bank. Send an email or make a call; research and connect and see what you think. Make an appointment for a day you won't be travelling.
posted by RainyJay at 4:34 PM on June 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Honestly, I think you have bigger problems than what we can help you with. Your question is all about this poor woman and how much contempt you have for her and how disgusting and fat she is, but you end it by asking how you could have put up with her for so long, given how beneath you she is - poor you for lowering yourself to date someone pathetic, you must need help. Well, you do, just not the type you think. There is so much wrong thinking here that therapy is really the only way out. RainyJay has good suggestions. I wish you luck and strongly suggest you don't date again until this happens.
posted by Jubey at 4:38 PM on June 13, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 4:38 PM on June 13, 2015 [24 favorites]
Hmm. I'm a bit worried about you, honestly. These aren't the comments (and tags) from someone who is feeling stable. Have you recently changed any medication? Have you ever been screened for the possibility of being bipolar? I'd encourage you to call your doctor and see if they can do a bit of a checkup on your thyroid and mood. Something's not quite right here.
posted by barnone at 4:38 PM on June 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by barnone at 4:38 PM on June 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
A back and forth on Askme is probably not the best place for an incisive discussion about what issues your are facing and we don't have the full picture of what went on or is going on with you.
That said, you asked a question and then when people responded you jumped into defend yourself. I suggest you go back and instead of trying to correct the record really consider why it is that people are reacting you to you this way.
If you don't want to be perceived as someone who is full of contempt, superiority, and disrespect, then think about how you could have communicated your question differently. Try to really look at yourself through the eyes of others. Developing that skill might help you get the relationship you want and the ability to actively listen to someone else is pretty critical to maintaining healthy relationships.
posted by brookeb at 5:02 PM on June 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
That said, you asked a question and then when people responded you jumped into defend yourself. I suggest you go back and instead of trying to correct the record really consider why it is that people are reacting you to you this way.
If you don't want to be perceived as someone who is full of contempt, superiority, and disrespect, then think about how you could have communicated your question differently. Try to really look at yourself through the eyes of others. Developing that skill might help you get the relationship you want and the ability to actively listen to someone else is pretty critical to maintaining healthy relationships.
posted by brookeb at 5:02 PM on June 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
From your past-and-very-recent questions it really seems like you're still just finding yourself and have some unresolved issues and frustrations. Also, there are therapists who will work over the phone if you find that you're not in the same location often enough or predictably.
posted by rhizome at 5:05 PM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 5:05 PM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can do Skype therapy too. Find a local therapist who is willing to do a mix of in office and Skype sessions when you're travelling, or just a Skype-only therapist. It's more flexible to schedule around and often cheaper than in-office therapy.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:05 PM on June 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:05 PM on June 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
In your questions and subsequent "clarification", you come off as incredibly lacking in introspection, empathy, and also tone-deaf as to the underlying emotional current of people's reaction to what your write.
When the responses here ask why do you feel or say xyz, they are not actually seeking clarification or more detail about how you REALLY feel--you have expressed that very clearly. Rather, they are imploring that you examine yourself, your worldview, your underlying assumptions.
A healthy, well-balanced person do not view others in such a light as you do your ex. Such people recognize that we are all human, that to be human is to be flawed, and that the difference is just a matter of degree. As fellow humans, we owe each other that base line of respect and kindness. If we must be at least polite to strangers, how much more important to be loving to those who are closer, in whose eyes are reflected our respective stories of joy and pain and sorrows?
Your post, in a personality type forum, would have been stereotypical of young ENTP (or those trying to appear like one), attempting to understand themselves and their problems as though they are being entirely objective, logical, just stating them facts ma'am, but often without recognizing that their entire premise is subjective. That, in truth, the problem lies in the way they themselves think and/or feel and/or see the world and its people.
In this case, the problem is not so much why you "punished" yourself by dating this person for so long when you were clearly incompatible. Instead, it is why you feel the urge to think so ill of ANYONE, let alone someone you chose to date and be close to.
Those who must think badly of others are always hiding some anxiety and fear within, and putting other people down is one way our minds protect us from having to directly feel that pain.. Hence, all the suggestion of therapy and self-help.
I think you need that, and a lot of maturing to do. Good luck.
posted by enlivener at 5:24 PM on June 13, 2015 [20 favorites]
When the responses here ask why do you feel or say xyz, they are not actually seeking clarification or more detail about how you REALLY feel--you have expressed that very clearly. Rather, they are imploring that you examine yourself, your worldview, your underlying assumptions.
A healthy, well-balanced person do not view others in such a light as you do your ex. Such people recognize that we are all human, that to be human is to be flawed, and that the difference is just a matter of degree. As fellow humans, we owe each other that base line of respect and kindness. If we must be at least polite to strangers, how much more important to be loving to those who are closer, in whose eyes are reflected our respective stories of joy and pain and sorrows?
Your post, in a personality type forum, would have been stereotypical of young ENTP (or those trying to appear like one), attempting to understand themselves and their problems as though they are being entirely objective, logical, just stating them facts ma'am, but often without recognizing that their entire premise is subjective. That, in truth, the problem lies in the way they themselves think and/or feel and/or see the world and its people.
In this case, the problem is not so much why you "punished" yourself by dating this person for so long when you were clearly incompatible. Instead, it is why you feel the urge to think so ill of ANYONE, let alone someone you chose to date and be close to.
Those who must think badly of others are always hiding some anxiety and fear within, and putting other people down is one way our minds protect us from having to directly feel that pain.. Hence, all the suggestion of therapy and self-help.
I think you need that, and a lot of maturing to do. Good luck.
posted by enlivener at 5:24 PM on June 13, 2015 [20 favorites]
You describe her as lazy like this:
"She tells me she wishes someone would just give her a job in the field because she's qualified."
and here's what you say about yourself:
"What I've always wanted is someone to 'take me under their wing' and teach me the ropes. I want someone to just hold my hand and guide me through life..."
posted by xo at 5:25 PM on June 13, 2015 [30 favorites]
"She tells me she wishes someone would just give her a job in the field because she's qualified."
and here's what you say about yourself:
"What I've always wanted is someone to 'take me under their wing' and teach me the ropes. I want someone to just hold my hand and guide me through life..."
posted by xo at 5:25 PM on June 13, 2015 [30 favorites]
Often, when relationships end we are not our best selves. Grief, combined with our exes being suddenly eager to expound upon our flaws, as well as our own rumination on the mistakes which led to the poor-fit relationship and its ultimate demise, can leave us raw and feeling quite terrible about ourselves. This leads us to act in ways that don’t reflect who we normally are, which has probably influenced your writing of this post and your feeling that the people responding to it don’t quite see you or understand where you’re coming from. I’m sorry you’re going through this difficult time, but I’m encouraged by your eagerness to self-reflect and your professed willingness to seek help in moving forward and learning from the experience of this relationship.
In that vein, I recommend https://therapists.psychologytoday.com. Are you in the U.S.? Do you have health insurance? Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, most health insurance now also covers mental health services. Check with your insurance provider to see precisely what benefits you have in this area. Then you can use the filters on Psychology Today to narrow therapists to those who accept your insurance. You can also filter for therapists who will provide services over Skype (though I am not certain whether most insurance companies cover remote sessions – you should also check into that). I would recommend finding a provider wherever you spend the largest portion of your time. If you are in a particular city 30% of the time and constantly on the road the other 70%, find someone in that 30% home-base city, see them every time you visit that city, and fill in the gaps with Skype sessions. If you’ve got a good therapist a one-hour session can often provide enough food for thought to last you a good two-three weeks, particularly if you devote time outside of therapy to reflecting on yourself.
I’m sorry that you haven’t had a good fit with any of the therapists you’ve seen thus far. I would encourage you this time around to be quite picky. While it may take some time, it shouldn’t cost you too much money, as many therapists will offer a free consultation session to determine if you’re a good fit for each other. Go in with questions prepared. Treat it like an interview rather than a therapy session. Were there any parts of previous therapy experiences that you liked? What were the aspects that you hated the most? What are your goals for this process? How do you like to work (do you like to go in and unload everything that happened this week, or do you prefer to keep to a pretty structured approach and work on one particular issue)? Once you have some ideas for what you want, craft questions for the therapist to assess if they suit your needs. I would advise against going in and stating exactly what you want and then asking if the therapist can do that – many will say yes, and will even try to work the way you need, but most therapists also have a particular style in which they are accustomed to working, and they may not adapt to your needs as readily as you would like. At the end of the consultation, commit to nothing. Just say “thank you, I’m going to think about whether this is a good fit for me and if it is I’ll be in touch to schedule a first session.”
One last thought on how to shore up your emotional strength while you search for a therapist – have you heard of The Artist’s Way, by Julia Cameron? It’s a workbook, of sorts, that walks you through a sixteen-week self-exploration designed to help you have insight into what inspires you, help you let go of the anxieties or thought processes holding you back, and find the strength to pursue your passions. The painting adventure you described above made me think you might enjoy delving more into your creative side, either as an end in itself or as a means to personal growth.
You’re in a tough place in life, but you’re working through it and you’re going to be ok. Good luck to you.
posted by philotes at 5:30 PM on June 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
In that vein, I recommend https://therapists.psychologytoday.com. Are you in the U.S.? Do you have health insurance? Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, most health insurance now also covers mental health services. Check with your insurance provider to see precisely what benefits you have in this area. Then you can use the filters on Psychology Today to narrow therapists to those who accept your insurance. You can also filter for therapists who will provide services over Skype (though I am not certain whether most insurance companies cover remote sessions – you should also check into that). I would recommend finding a provider wherever you spend the largest portion of your time. If you are in a particular city 30% of the time and constantly on the road the other 70%, find someone in that 30% home-base city, see them every time you visit that city, and fill in the gaps with Skype sessions. If you’ve got a good therapist a one-hour session can often provide enough food for thought to last you a good two-three weeks, particularly if you devote time outside of therapy to reflecting on yourself.
I’m sorry that you haven’t had a good fit with any of the therapists you’ve seen thus far. I would encourage you this time around to be quite picky. While it may take some time, it shouldn’t cost you too much money, as many therapists will offer a free consultation session to determine if you’re a good fit for each other. Go in with questions prepared. Treat it like an interview rather than a therapy session. Were there any parts of previous therapy experiences that you liked? What were the aspects that you hated the most? What are your goals for this process? How do you like to work (do you like to go in and unload everything that happened this week, or do you prefer to keep to a pretty structured approach and work on one particular issue)? Once you have some ideas for what you want, craft questions for the therapist to assess if they suit your needs. I would advise against going in and stating exactly what you want and then asking if the therapist can do that – many will say yes, and will even try to work the way you need, but most therapists also have a particular style in which they are accustomed to working, and they may not adapt to your needs as readily as you would like. At the end of the consultation, commit to nothing. Just say “thank you, I’m going to think about whether this is a good fit for me and if it is I’ll be in touch to schedule a first session.”
One last thought on how to shore up your emotional strength while you search for a therapist – have you heard of The Artist’s Way, by Julia Cameron? It’s a workbook, of sorts, that walks you through a sixteen-week self-exploration designed to help you have insight into what inspires you, help you let go of the anxieties or thought processes holding you back, and find the strength to pursue your passions. The painting adventure you described above made me think you might enjoy delving more into your creative side, either as an end in itself or as a means to personal growth.
You’re in a tough place in life, but you’re working through it and you’re going to be ok. Good luck to you.
posted by philotes at 5:30 PM on June 13, 2015 [10 favorites]
To spend this much time with someone from whom you feel alienated enough to talk this way, I also think depression might be on the table. Are you recovering from anything traumatic or grief-inducing?
I also feel there is likely something in your childhood worth exploring. Did you feel this way toward your parents? Would your parents talk in this harsh manner themselves?
Between your last question and this one, it does feel like therapy would be worth considering. You can simultaneously try a path of self-care and -healing, too. Perhaps focus on acceptance of yourself and others? Try efforts to boost empathy, such as trying to find similarities between yourself and them?
posted by salvia at 5:46 PM on June 13, 2015
I also feel there is likely something in your childhood worth exploring. Did you feel this way toward your parents? Would your parents talk in this harsh manner themselves?
Between your last question and this one, it does feel like therapy would be worth considering. You can simultaneously try a path of self-care and -healing, too. Perhaps focus on acceptance of yourself and others? Try efforts to boost empathy, such as trying to find similarities between yourself and them?
posted by salvia at 5:46 PM on June 13, 2015
Being in a relationship is awesome. There's another human being who is devoted (ideally) to making you happy. That may well be why you stayed--much more pleasant to stay with those things than to be alone.
Beyond that, yeah I get you're having difficulties with scheduling and cash flow, find a therapist. There are ways to make that work.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:18 PM on June 13, 2015
Beyond that, yeah I get you're having difficulties with scheduling and cash flow, find a therapist. There are ways to make that work.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:18 PM on June 13, 2015
Let's say you never get to a therapist. Therapy is like (or is supposed to be like) a mirror.
You say something, they mirror it back to you.
You: "I feel like shit."
Therapist: "You feel like shit? Why do you feel like shit?"
You: "My life is in shambles."
Therapist: "How is your life in shambles?"
You: "My wife left me and my dog died."
Therapist: "Why did your wife leave you? How did your dog die?"
And so on and so on until you get to the root of your problem...They can offer you insights on yourself, but in therapy, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting of the emotional work. They are providing you with a non-partial sounding board and some coping skills, but you have to look in that mirror yourself and take your own inventory.
She's fat, lazy and unmotivated? Horrible in bed? Ok, that's fine. That's her. But look in that mirror, girl. Look closely.Take a long, cold, unflinching look at yourself.
You asked what you can do to be not like this. You vow to change yourself into someone who has more depth. Calling someone fat is about as shallow as you can get. Being shallow is much worse than being fat and unmotivated (or exceedingly polite). You used her to make yourself feel better, and you stayed with her when you loathed her, so you're fake as hell. You think you're a great lay compared to her? Again, shallow.
I'm not saying any of this to be mean, believe me. We all need to look in the mirror sometimes. You want to grow up and be a decent person? Look straight into that mirror and ask yourself why you are so poisonous towards someone who didn't actually DO anything bad to you.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 7:10 PM on June 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
You say something, they mirror it back to you.
You: "I feel like shit."
Therapist: "You feel like shit? Why do you feel like shit?"
You: "My life is in shambles."
Therapist: "How is your life in shambles?"
You: "My wife left me and my dog died."
Therapist: "Why did your wife leave you? How did your dog die?"
And so on and so on until you get to the root of your problem...They can offer you insights on yourself, but in therapy, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting of the emotional work. They are providing you with a non-partial sounding board and some coping skills, but you have to look in that mirror yourself and take your own inventory.
She's fat, lazy and unmotivated? Horrible in bed? Ok, that's fine. That's her. But look in that mirror, girl. Look closely.Take a long, cold, unflinching look at yourself.
You asked what you can do to be not like this. You vow to change yourself into someone who has more depth. Calling someone fat is about as shallow as you can get. Being shallow is much worse than being fat and unmotivated (or exceedingly polite). You used her to make yourself feel better, and you stayed with her when you loathed her, so you're fake as hell. You think you're a great lay compared to her? Again, shallow.
I'm not saying any of this to be mean, believe me. We all need to look in the mirror sometimes. You want to grow up and be a decent person? Look straight into that mirror and ask yourself why you are so poisonous towards someone who didn't actually DO anything bad to you.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 7:10 PM on June 13, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Everybody's nuts. To whatever degree. I'm 60, been around some, seen it in myself and seen it in others. I've seen lots of lives from very close range, no one gets away -- we're all nuts.
Mostly, this can be sublimated and/or hidden out until A) we slam our fingers in the car door or B) we get into a relationship. But then the crazy comes flying up and into our face like a monster in a B movie -- and into the face of anyone else in our sphere -- and we get to see clearly, in stark relief, that we're barking mad.
Only once it's out into the open can we really see it, for what it is, and be humbled, in that most painful of ways: through public humiliation. The pain of being scorched, in public, leaves us feeling like a scalded dog, and that pain will motivate us.
It can motivate us to change, for the better, a slow process, an uphill slog, a big fat pain in the ass. Or it can motivate us to say "Fuck it." and just live your life in the joy of colors on canvas or meditating in a cave.
But the huge golden ring we mostly grab for is happiness through human love, and to get that we're going to have to change, unless we've got fame and/or status and/or super-model beauty and a billion dollars, in which case we can treat people like toilet paper. (See: Mick Jagger.)
Myself: I think you're right on time. You're fucking crazy and you know it -- great. You've got a bit of the lay of the land now, plus you've got that first relationship behind you. You'll never be able to make the amends to her that need be made in order for you to recognize civility in yourself -- welcome to the human race. She'll forgive you as she's able, you'll accept it as you're able, maybe even begin to forgive yourself.
If you don't yet see that you need this, after reading the responses in this thread, get out the canvas and colors or go to the cave or get ready for more scorching humiliation, to finally drive home the point that you're going to have to change if you're going to have human love. You may not even be able to have it then -- this whole motherfucker really is totally a dice toss -- but you'll have a better shot, plus your mirror won't hurt so much.
Good luck.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:05 PM on June 13, 2015 [19 favorites]
Mostly, this can be sublimated and/or hidden out until A) we slam our fingers in the car door or B) we get into a relationship. But then the crazy comes flying up and into our face like a monster in a B movie -- and into the face of anyone else in our sphere -- and we get to see clearly, in stark relief, that we're barking mad.
Only once it's out into the open can we really see it, for what it is, and be humbled, in that most painful of ways: through public humiliation. The pain of being scorched, in public, leaves us feeling like a scalded dog, and that pain will motivate us.
It can motivate us to change, for the better, a slow process, an uphill slog, a big fat pain in the ass. Or it can motivate us to say "Fuck it." and just live your life in the joy of colors on canvas or meditating in a cave.
But the huge golden ring we mostly grab for is happiness through human love, and to get that we're going to have to change, unless we've got fame and/or status and/or super-model beauty and a billion dollars, in which case we can treat people like toilet paper. (See: Mick Jagger.)
Myself: I think you're right on time. You're fucking crazy and you know it -- great. You've got a bit of the lay of the land now, plus you've got that first relationship behind you. You'll never be able to make the amends to her that need be made in order for you to recognize civility in yourself -- welcome to the human race. She'll forgive you as she's able, you'll accept it as you're able, maybe even begin to forgive yourself.
If you don't yet see that you need this, after reading the responses in this thread, get out the canvas and colors or go to the cave or get ready for more scorching humiliation, to finally drive home the point that you're going to have to change if you're going to have human love. You may not even be able to have it then -- this whole motherfucker really is totally a dice toss -- but you'll have a better shot, plus your mirror won't hurt so much.
Good luck.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:05 PM on June 13, 2015 [19 favorites]
Best answer: I'll throw my keyboard-therapist hat in the ring, too:
What we seem to have here is someone who -- by your own indication, OP -- has grown up hearing how awesome she is, dating someone who -- by all evidence provided -- has probably grown up under the impression that she's kind of worthless. This is not a surprising dynamic in relationships, especially first relationships. It is also not surprising that this dynamic can sometimes be toxic. It is additionally not surprising that your ex may have internalized others' assessment of her worth, making it difficult to imagine success, while you may have internalized others' assessments of your worth, making it difficult to imagine that success could feel fucking impossible.
Look, I've been your ex, in the sense that I struggled for years with a serious learned helplessness problem: I wasn't happy with my life but always found reasons that precluded any improvement. Not to discount whatever annoying traits your ex otherwise possesses, but this is a horrible place to be, and sure as hell takes more than sixteen months to climb out of (try sixteen years, with occasional relapses forever). Was there an element of laziness in there? I guess, but mostly paralyzing fear. I've also been you, in the sense that I struggled for years with a seriously inflated sense of being special/superior. Can you imagine how this latter problem combined with and compounded the former problem? Holy buckets, I was such a joy to be around...
Part of me thinks that I maybe have this insatiable need to 'save' people.
You might, although it sounds more like you have an insatiable need to despise people. No one else expects you to be your ex's savior -- that's her task -- but I think most would expect a modicum of empathy. Likewise, no one expects you to be without anger after a breakup, but I think most would expect a modicum of, well, class. The way you've framed your Ask is more appropriate for private scribbling and ceremonial burning, or whatever. Is it any shock that people are finding your framing distasteful?
The right to end a relationship doesn't negate the responsibility to honestly examine your reasons for doing so. I think you think you are doing this, but most of your supposedly-honest self-assessments seem to be vehicles for unloading additional bile or evading criticism, rather than inviting painful self-reflection. This technique is baldly disingenuous, and I say this as a mostly-reformed expert practitioner.
How fucked up am I? No seriously.
I think you should shelve the question of why you might be punishing yourself. You've had exactly one relationship upon which to base this dubious claim. A better question might be: In the interest of healthy future relationships, what can you do to avoid punishing other people?
posted by credible hulk at 9:21 PM on June 13, 2015 [31 favorites]
What we seem to have here is someone who -- by your own indication, OP -- has grown up hearing how awesome she is, dating someone who -- by all evidence provided -- has probably grown up under the impression that she's kind of worthless. This is not a surprising dynamic in relationships, especially first relationships. It is also not surprising that this dynamic can sometimes be toxic. It is additionally not surprising that your ex may have internalized others' assessment of her worth, making it difficult to imagine success, while you may have internalized others' assessments of your worth, making it difficult to imagine that success could feel fucking impossible.
Look, I've been your ex, in the sense that I struggled for years with a serious learned helplessness problem: I wasn't happy with my life but always found reasons that precluded any improvement. Not to discount whatever annoying traits your ex otherwise possesses, but this is a horrible place to be, and sure as hell takes more than sixteen months to climb out of (try sixteen years, with occasional relapses forever). Was there an element of laziness in there? I guess, but mostly paralyzing fear. I've also been you, in the sense that I struggled for years with a seriously inflated sense of being special/superior. Can you imagine how this latter problem combined with and compounded the former problem? Holy buckets, I was such a joy to be around...
Part of me thinks that I maybe have this insatiable need to 'save' people.
You might, although it sounds more like you have an insatiable need to despise people. No one else expects you to be your ex's savior -- that's her task -- but I think most would expect a modicum of empathy. Likewise, no one expects you to be without anger after a breakup, but I think most would expect a modicum of, well, class. The way you've framed your Ask is more appropriate for private scribbling and ceremonial burning, or whatever. Is it any shock that people are finding your framing distasteful?
The right to end a relationship doesn't negate the responsibility to honestly examine your reasons for doing so. I think you think you are doing this, but most of your supposedly-honest self-assessments seem to be vehicles for unloading additional bile or evading criticism, rather than inviting painful self-reflection. This technique is baldly disingenuous, and I say this as a mostly-reformed expert practitioner.
How fucked up am I? No seriously.
I think you should shelve the question of why you might be punishing yourself. You've had exactly one relationship upon which to base this dubious claim. A better question might be: In the interest of healthy future relationships, what can you do to avoid punishing other people?
posted by credible hulk at 9:21 PM on June 13, 2015 [31 favorites]
I looked at your previous questions. You talked about being sexually assaulted. I really really think you need to get help with this because you’re carrying a lot of confusion, rage and fear around this. It’s manifesting in who you choose to seek out for a relationship, and how you treated her, and how you see yourself. It’s not easy to see the straight-line correlation between your recent relationship and the sexual assault because it isn’t a straight line. There’s a lot you have to work through with respect to the abuse and the kind of family environment you grew up in too. Since you can’t do therapy right now, how about following up on the suggestions from your May 20 question (e.g. reading books, online forums, etc.)? Or how about posting to those online forums asking for a recommendation for a good therapist that’s sliding scale and can meet over skype?
From your earlier post, you said about your abuser:
“Perhaps poetic justice is that the guy is a classic overweight "loser" with no life to speak of.”
This jumped out at me. This sounds similar to how you describe your ex, whom you say is fat, unmotivated and lazy. I’m armchair psychologizing here: maybe you were somehow working out your rage against your abuser on your ex.
“wtf is wrong with me and how can I fix it?”
Self-hatred? Not knowing how to have a healthy relationship? Not knowing who you find attractive? Wanting to put down someone else so that what’s great about you can be seen in sharp contrast?
I really think that healing from the sexual assault should be your first priority, and finding a great therapist to help you do that. That takes a lot of courage and you can’t and shouldn’t do it alone.
posted by foxjacket at 9:32 PM on June 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
From your earlier post, you said about your abuser:
“Perhaps poetic justice is that the guy is a classic overweight "loser" with no life to speak of.”
This jumped out at me. This sounds similar to how you describe your ex, whom you say is fat, unmotivated and lazy. I’m armchair psychologizing here: maybe you were somehow working out your rage against your abuser on your ex.
“wtf is wrong with me and how can I fix it?”
Self-hatred? Not knowing how to have a healthy relationship? Not knowing who you find attractive? Wanting to put down someone else so that what’s great about you can be seen in sharp contrast?
I really think that healing from the sexual assault should be your first priority, and finding a great therapist to help you do that. That takes a lot of courage and you can’t and shouldn’t do it alone.
posted by foxjacket at 9:32 PM on June 13, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'll take the practical approach. Your question seems to boil down to this:
Why would I stay in a relationship with a complete happiness-drain like this person?
Some possible reasons why people might do this include:
- they want to 'save' or 'rescue' or 'fix' the other person (like you said)
- they don't know what a good relationship looks and feels like
- they are co-dependent, feeding off of the other person's drama
- they don't believe they deserve a truly healthy relationship (or if they do start a healthy relationship, it never feels right, there's no spark or chemistry - sometimes this goes back to wanting to be co-dependent, and if the partner isn't like that, then it will feel like something is missing even though what's really going on is healthy independence/interdependence instead of unhealthy co-dependence)
- they believe that any relationship is better than being alone
- they had a previous experience (usually with parent figures) where they did not get the love they need, but the experience imprinted on them the idea that "this is what love feels like," so they are continuing to act out this idea
- it doesn't hurt enough to leave yet
Do any of these resonate with you?
As for how to stop the cycle... either a lot of careful introspection and actively changing your thoughts and behaviors, or therapy, which helps achieve the same thing but with an experienced guide helping you along the way.
posted by Questolicious at 11:06 PM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why would I stay in a relationship with a complete happiness-drain like this person?
Some possible reasons why people might do this include:
- they want to 'save' or 'rescue' or 'fix' the other person (like you said)
- they don't know what a good relationship looks and feels like
- they are co-dependent, feeding off of the other person's drama
- they don't believe they deserve a truly healthy relationship (or if they do start a healthy relationship, it never feels right, there's no spark or chemistry - sometimes this goes back to wanting to be co-dependent, and if the partner isn't like that, then it will feel like something is missing even though what's really going on is healthy independence/interdependence instead of unhealthy co-dependence)
- they believe that any relationship is better than being alone
- they had a previous experience (usually with parent figures) where they did not get the love they need, but the experience imprinted on them the idea that "this is what love feels like," so they are continuing to act out this idea
- it doesn't hurt enough to leave yet
Do any of these resonate with you?
As for how to stop the cycle... either a lot of careful introspection and actively changing your thoughts and behaviors, or therapy, which helps achieve the same thing but with an experienced guide helping you along the way.
posted by Questolicious at 11:06 PM on June 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nthing therapy, and that it is doable over the phone. Ideally, find a therapist you can meet in person as often as possible, because that will be more foundational for trust and help phone therapy progress. But if that's not possible, then phone therapy.
You very much need this. This sort of hatred is not normal, and like others, I suspect it has to do with your sexual assault and something in your childhood.
I would find it really hard to believe that most people (if not everyone) has felt this way about a person or two in their lives.
If perspective can help – I was raised by fundamentalists and told from my earliest memories that I should have died so my parents could have had a firstborn son (I'm a woman). My entire family save my paternal grandparents were abusive. I have never described anyone in my family in the way you describe your ex. I do not feel contempt for any of them. Fatigue, anxiety, sorrow, definitely, and occasionally anger, yes.
The only time I did feel contempt was when I felt trapped. When I felt that the way I'd been raised was directly linked to my own sexual assault (as a matter of fact it was) and that this would be my life forever because I have no family, worse, one that actively wanted me dead, worse, one that celebrated my assault as "what I deserved", and whew hello fury. "Why would a healthy person want me?! I have nothing to give!! The people closest to me take and steal and destroy and fuck, just, fuck!! I don't even know how to heal!!"
Thus, therapy. Therapy, therapy, therapy. There are no shortcuts. The poison is also the cure. The poison: "this will be my life forever." The past is the past, it cannot be erased or forgotten. It can be enrichened, though, and the present can be made different, and the future can go off on a different path. Part of the cure is enrichening the past. I make it a point to remember my healthy grandparents, my dear friends, my lovely teachers. I chose to approach them again, and see if and how present friendships could grow from there. Not all were able to, but many did. That's just one example, it is not the key, those of us here saying "there's no shortcut" are giving you the most important key to the whole thing, really.
With therapy, therapy, therapy, time, and healing, you'll start to see what it is you have to give, and that it definitely does not feel like being "taken". Contempt will dissipate because you'll no longer feel it towards yourself, except at the weakest, most vulnerable times, which happen to us all. You'll be able to recognize it and say, "hey self, let's eat some chocolate" or whatever it is gets you out of the contempt headspace and into something more holistic.
posted by fraula at 1:23 AM on June 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
You very much need this. This sort of hatred is not normal, and like others, I suspect it has to do with your sexual assault and something in your childhood.
I would find it really hard to believe that most people (if not everyone) has felt this way about a person or two in their lives.
If perspective can help – I was raised by fundamentalists and told from my earliest memories that I should have died so my parents could have had a firstborn son (I'm a woman). My entire family save my paternal grandparents were abusive. I have never described anyone in my family in the way you describe your ex. I do not feel contempt for any of them. Fatigue, anxiety, sorrow, definitely, and occasionally anger, yes.
The only time I did feel contempt was when I felt trapped. When I felt that the way I'd been raised was directly linked to my own sexual assault (as a matter of fact it was) and that this would be my life forever because I have no family, worse, one that actively wanted me dead, worse, one that celebrated my assault as "what I deserved", and whew hello fury. "Why would a healthy person want me?! I have nothing to give!! The people closest to me take and steal and destroy and fuck, just, fuck!! I don't even know how to heal!!"
Thus, therapy. Therapy, therapy, therapy. There are no shortcuts. The poison is also the cure. The poison: "this will be my life forever." The past is the past, it cannot be erased or forgotten. It can be enrichened, though, and the present can be made different, and the future can go off on a different path. Part of the cure is enrichening the past. I make it a point to remember my healthy grandparents, my dear friends, my lovely teachers. I chose to approach them again, and see if and how present friendships could grow from there. Not all were able to, but many did. That's just one example, it is not the key, those of us here saying "there's no shortcut" are giving you the most important key to the whole thing, really.
With therapy, therapy, therapy, time, and healing, you'll start to see what it is you have to give, and that it definitely does not feel like being "taken". Contempt will dissipate because you'll no longer feel it towards yourself, except at the weakest, most vulnerable times, which happen to us all. You'll be able to recognize it and say, "hey self, let's eat some chocolate" or whatever it is gets you out of the contempt headspace and into something more holistic.
posted by fraula at 1:23 AM on June 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think you've got three basic problems that are keeping you from getting into a healthy, supportive, mutually respectful relationship. They also probably contributed to you getting into such a bad relationship to begin with.
You sound like you've got a lot double standards that are so deep in your head that you don't even notice you've got them. For example, you want other people to be polite to you, but you don't think you owe them politeness in return. Just because the Golden Rule sounds trite when you learn it in kindergarten, doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
You sound like you're not very truthful with yourself about what you want and why. You say you don't want anyone to put you up on a pedestal, but you got into a relationship with someone who you clearly think is inferior to you, and it sounds like you got really angry with her whenever she didn't act properly submissive and awed by your fabulousness (i.e. when you asked her what she thought about your painting, and she gave you a truthful, but negative, answer).
Finally: you sound really really angry about a lot of things, and you seem to think that it's normal and that everyone else is that angry too, but you're wrong. Anger and depression often go together. You need someone to help you deal with those things, and if you're not ready to talk to a therapist right now, I suggest you go try MoodGYM which is a free website that is basically an interactive Cognitive Behavioral Therapy workbook.
posted by colfax at 3:13 AM on June 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
You sound like you've got a lot double standards that are so deep in your head that you don't even notice you've got them. For example, you want other people to be polite to you, but you don't think you owe them politeness in return. Just because the Golden Rule sounds trite when you learn it in kindergarten, doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
You sound like you're not very truthful with yourself about what you want and why. You say you don't want anyone to put you up on a pedestal, but you got into a relationship with someone who you clearly think is inferior to you, and it sounds like you got really angry with her whenever she didn't act properly submissive and awed by your fabulousness (i.e. when you asked her what she thought about your painting, and she gave you a truthful, but negative, answer).
Finally: you sound really really angry about a lot of things, and you seem to think that it's normal and that everyone else is that angry too, but you're wrong. Anger and depression often go together. You need someone to help you deal with those things, and if you're not ready to talk to a therapist right now, I suggest you go try MoodGYM which is a free website that is basically an interactive Cognitive Behavioral Therapy workbook.
posted by colfax at 3:13 AM on June 14, 2015 [7 favorites]
You're not crazy, but you are angry and hurting and you have issues to work on. Some of those issues just come from being young and new to relationships, and some of them probably run deeper.
I'd strongly suggest seeing a therapist, and no matter how broke you are it still may be possible to make that happen. Call local therapists and ask if they can hook you up with anybody who will see you on a sliding scale. If you live near a large university, call and ask if they have any program where a psychology intern can see you. (Don't get scared off by them being interns, it doesn't mean they're just the kids who get coffee for the real shrinks. They've had plenty of training and they can be great. That's how I met my longtime shrink, and I would take a bullet for that lady.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:03 AM on June 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'd strongly suggest seeing a therapist, and no matter how broke you are it still may be possible to make that happen. Call local therapists and ask if they can hook you up with anybody who will see you on a sliding scale. If you live near a large university, call and ask if they have any program where a psychology intern can see you. (Don't get scared off by them being interns, it doesn't mean they're just the kids who get coffee for the real shrinks. They've had plenty of training and they can be great. That's how I met my longtime shrink, and I would take a bullet for that lady.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:03 AM on June 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
When I have felt like this, it has been about anxiety that I will get swayed into a bad situation again. I have felt vulnerable, so I have lashed out in hopes that red-hot anger would keep me safe.
Early therapy was saying a lot of mean things about people. I didn't mean half of the words, but all of the emotion. A closed anonymous room is the place for that.
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (book: Things Might Go Terribly Horribly Wrong) has really helped. Life is risk. You can avoid 100% of bad relationships by never dating again. The cost is that you avoid 100% of good relationships that way too. ACT is about seeing these feelings as risk-avoiding strategies and working out more appropriate approaches to life.
You need room to explore in art. A bad painting is a learning painting. You need the same room in relationships. Forgive yourself, take the learnings. Today is a new canvas.
posted by heatherann at 4:37 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Early therapy was saying a lot of mean things about people. I didn't mean half of the words, but all of the emotion. A closed anonymous room is the place for that.
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (book: Things Might Go Terribly Horribly Wrong) has really helped. Life is risk. You can avoid 100% of bad relationships by never dating again. The cost is that you avoid 100% of good relationships that way too. ACT is about seeing these feelings as risk-avoiding strategies and working out more appropriate approaches to life.
You need room to explore in art. A bad painting is a learning painting. You need the same room in relationships. Forgive yourself, take the learnings. Today is a new canvas.
posted by heatherann at 4:37 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is really a rant disguised as a question. Your quasi question, "why am I such a loser for being with such a loser," isn't a constructive question either.
You need some time to get over your anger and pain. It takes a while. A lot of spinning your wheels with angry, obsessive thoughts is part of this. What did I ever see in her, she's so fucking worthless, I must be worthless myself, there won't ever be anyone else, could it maybe work if we tried again, is she happy right now, she'd better not be happy right now, how can I punish her, she deserves punishment she's so worthless, what did I ever see in her. Round and round.
It takes a while to get over this stage. Longer than you want. For a first relationship that lasted about a year, but with quite strong feelings, a few months.
As your thinking starts to clear you'll be able to ask more constructive questions. What mistakes did I make? What warning signs did I disregard? How should I have responded to X differently? What were my failings in the relationship and in what ways was I a shitty partner? What attracted me to this person in the first place? Basically, what can you learn from this, and what should you change about your own thinking and behavior.
Shitty relationships are quite valuable life lessons if you attend to what they're telling you. You're not ready for that part yet, but you will be. Good luck.
posted by mattu at 7:11 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
You need some time to get over your anger and pain. It takes a while. A lot of spinning your wheels with angry, obsessive thoughts is part of this. What did I ever see in her, she's so fucking worthless, I must be worthless myself, there won't ever be anyone else, could it maybe work if we tried again, is she happy right now, she'd better not be happy right now, how can I punish her, she deserves punishment she's so worthless, what did I ever see in her. Round and round.
It takes a while to get over this stage. Longer than you want. For a first relationship that lasted about a year, but with quite strong feelings, a few months.
As your thinking starts to clear you'll be able to ask more constructive questions. What mistakes did I make? What warning signs did I disregard? How should I have responded to X differently? What were my failings in the relationship and in what ways was I a shitty partner? What attracted me to this person in the first place? Basically, what can you learn from this, and what should you change about your own thinking and behavior.
Shitty relationships are quite valuable life lessons if you attend to what they're telling you. You're not ready for that part yet, but you will be. Good luck.
posted by mattu at 7:11 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought I'd put in a pitch for free online therapy, which would address both your concerns about traveling and cost. I briefly chatted with someone at 7cupsoftea.com and it helped me step back from the ledge, metaphorically speaking.
A lot of therapy is holding a mirror up to you. Plenty of people don't like what they see when that happens so they walk away saying therapy doesn't work. There are crappy therapists out there but I saw someone who was not a genius and even she made me think. For example, I once said, I need help and people keep offering but I can't take them up on it and she said, why not? It was a small thing but that was a good question - why can't I just let people help me when they offer? I still don't have a good answer but i have been trying to delegate more so hopefully after doing that, I'll see that I can do that without the world collapsing and then someday it won't be an issue anymore.
I also wanted to point out the absence of empathy for your former partner. You said people have put you on a pedestal - can you imagine what it would be like to never have that experience or to have the opposite experience? Do you realize that would be a crappier way to live? I hear you saying "boohoo, everyone thinks I'm special and I don't know what to do about it." It seems that you believe your cross to bear is that people believe you will be successful and you're searching for people to help you deal with the weight. Good partners help, for sure, but your partner isn't a muse or career counselor or therapist.
It seems like part of your anger is that she didn't help you advance toward your goals or appreciate you As An Artist. That's not really what your partner should be doing. You two seem like a lousy fit but you seem to think it was all her fault whereas even if it is more her fault than yours, there's still enough to go around.
posted by kat518 at 7:25 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
A lot of therapy is holding a mirror up to you. Plenty of people don't like what they see when that happens so they walk away saying therapy doesn't work. There are crappy therapists out there but I saw someone who was not a genius and even she made me think. For example, I once said, I need help and people keep offering but I can't take them up on it and she said, why not? It was a small thing but that was a good question - why can't I just let people help me when they offer? I still don't have a good answer but i have been trying to delegate more so hopefully after doing that, I'll see that I can do that without the world collapsing and then someday it won't be an issue anymore.
I also wanted to point out the absence of empathy for your former partner. You said people have put you on a pedestal - can you imagine what it would be like to never have that experience or to have the opposite experience? Do you realize that would be a crappier way to live? I hear you saying "boohoo, everyone thinks I'm special and I don't know what to do about it." It seems that you believe your cross to bear is that people believe you will be successful and you're searching for people to help you deal with the weight. Good partners help, for sure, but your partner isn't a muse or career counselor or therapist.
It seems like part of your anger is that she didn't help you advance toward your goals or appreciate you As An Artist. That's not really what your partner should be doing. You two seem like a lousy fit but you seem to think it was all her fault whereas even if it is more her fault than yours, there's still enough to go around.
posted by kat518 at 7:25 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you're really hurting and your mind is racing to find the source of the pain (did you bring it on yourself? even if you did, didn't someone else actually drive you to it? should you hate yourself for being influenced that way? and round and round). That won't stop the hurt--healing and growth take time regardless of whether you figure out who to blame.
I think you're terrified of learning that some of your problems are results of your attitude and behavior. Don't be. Changing yourself is a million times more possible and productive than trying to change someone else.
You’re free to ignore and/or reject social norms, but doing so has consequences (some of which you seem to be suffering even now). You say you want community and like companionship, but when you’re given advice about how to be a more welcome member of a community, you consistently go to a “yes, but” defense explaining why you’re above the “rules” (at least you’ve done that here with every question you’ve asked).
I’m not suggesting you pretend to be someone you’re not for purposes of fitting in. I am suggesting that you take cues—and direct advice—so that you can enjoy the benefits of getting along with other people. That’s hard to do when you’re self-obsessed. Metafilter is a community, and you don’t seem to have taken notice that it’s considered rude to talk over people (reading a handful of threads would make this evident to anyone truly hoping to learn the climate of the culture). I don’t mean to be harsh; I just think you’d be well-served to note that you’re insisting on behaving in ways that other people don’t appreciate, and then you’re wondering why that doesn’t go over well. (Tip: Throwaway apologies like, “I’m sorry you took that the wrong way,” [putting the blame back on the other party] don’t go over well in any relationship.
I wish for your sake that you’d take the advice to get professional help. Despite your past disappointment and financial constraints. It can be done. Others have mentioned your double standards. You describe your ex as Lazy because she didn’t actively chase down her dreams. Please have the self-respect to make a way to reach your goal of understanding the things you ask about here, but with the help of a therapist. You can do this.
posted by whoiam at 8:36 AM on June 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think you're terrified of learning that some of your problems are results of your attitude and behavior. Don't be. Changing yourself is a million times more possible and productive than trying to change someone else.
You’re free to ignore and/or reject social norms, but doing so has consequences (some of which you seem to be suffering even now). You say you want community and like companionship, but when you’re given advice about how to be a more welcome member of a community, you consistently go to a “yes, but” defense explaining why you’re above the “rules” (at least you’ve done that here with every question you’ve asked).
I’m not suggesting you pretend to be someone you’re not for purposes of fitting in. I am suggesting that you take cues—and direct advice—so that you can enjoy the benefits of getting along with other people. That’s hard to do when you’re self-obsessed. Metafilter is a community, and you don’t seem to have taken notice that it’s considered rude to talk over people (reading a handful of threads would make this evident to anyone truly hoping to learn the climate of the culture). I don’t mean to be harsh; I just think you’d be well-served to note that you’re insisting on behaving in ways that other people don’t appreciate, and then you’re wondering why that doesn’t go over well. (Tip: Throwaway apologies like, “I’m sorry you took that the wrong way,” [putting the blame back on the other party] don’t go over well in any relationship.
I wish for your sake that you’d take the advice to get professional help. Despite your past disappointment and financial constraints. It can be done. Others have mentioned your double standards. You describe your ex as Lazy because she didn’t actively chase down her dreams. Please have the self-respect to make a way to reach your goal of understanding the things you ask about here, but with the help of a therapist. You can do this.
posted by whoiam at 8:36 AM on June 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
One thing you might want to work your way through is this idea that other people put you on a pedestal. They tell you you're an Art Genius or something?
Well, your girlfriend didn't fit that mold, at least once, when she didn't like one of your works of art and decided to be honest about it. And this is one of the few specific examples you've given us, and it makes you angry.
I don't know exactly what that means, but I think it's one thing for you to consider as you try to figure things out.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:01 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, your girlfriend didn't fit that mold, at least once, when she didn't like one of your works of art and decided to be honest about it. And this is one of the few specific examples you've given us, and it makes you angry.
I don't know exactly what that means, but I think it's one thing for you to consider as you try to figure things out.
posted by J. Wilson at 9:01 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I want to clarify this painting situation because it keeps coming up. It matters less to me that she liked the actual piece. I didn't think it was anything special myself and in fact I often think my work isn't good enough, similar to most creatively-inclined people I have interacted with. The point was: I was hurt by the fact that I was so excited about something, just the act of doing it, not the result (the painting) itself. And that her reaction to my excitement was to be completely dismissive. It could have been about anything, not just art, and I would feel the same way. She was just a flat-out killjoy about pretty much anything. That was just one example.
But okay. It's beside the point now, and one thing (among many) I've taken from many constructive comments here is to focus on painful questions I can ask myself instead of remaining angry about her faults.
posted by otterboxdefender at 9:11 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
But okay. It's beside the point now, and one thing (among many) I've taken from many constructive comments here is to focus on painful questions I can ask myself instead of remaining angry about her faults.
posted by otterboxdefender at 9:11 AM on June 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
I want to clarify this painting situation because it keeps coming up.
No, see, instead you could consider why it keeps coming up. Even re-read some of the reasons folks have given for bringing it up. People are trying to help you take a look at one example of a double standard. I understand why the response to your art felt dismissive. Can you try to see that you are being dismissive ("fuck that shit" --your words) about your ex's desire for politeness?*
Look, a lot of people posting questions on AskMe are hurting, angry, anxious, etc., AND a lot of people don't like the responses they get. But to enjoy the benefits of the community, they (generally) stick with the format of letting responses roll in without repeatedly adding comments (especially after being asked to stop doing so!).**
Nobody here is trying to chase you off; they're simply telling you how this works... and trying to give helpful advice while you learn the ropes (it's a bit ironic that you say of your ex, "She couldn't learn."). I think you could benefit from considering why you think your situation is so starkly different that you should be exempt from a certain code of conduct that's accepted by everyone else in a group of people. The same goes for the double standard of dismissiveness. Why is it okay for you to be dismissive, but deplorable when someone else is?
So again, you seem to believe you're above the "rules" of social norms. Feel free, but understand why people find that unpleasant.
*Different strokes for different folks, but 14 years into marriage, my husband and I still say please and thank you. I recognize that "Hey, c'mere!' is a bit different, but a) it may have been her tipping point if you'd refused politeness for a while, and b) after all these years, we'd still say, "Hey, got a sec? Yeah? Ok, c'mere!" See the difference? If you'd been refusing the "politeness" long enough, I can see how a request would be so much better than a command in her mind. Can you see that?
**Really, you've gotta quit with the threadsitting. Everyone is a special snowflake, okay? Most people get responses they don't like. If you truly want advice (as opposed to a place to rant), try going with the flow.
posted by whoiam at 10:55 AM on June 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
No, see, instead you could consider why it keeps coming up. Even re-read some of the reasons folks have given for bringing it up. People are trying to help you take a look at one example of a double standard. I understand why the response to your art felt dismissive. Can you try to see that you are being dismissive ("fuck that shit" --your words) about your ex's desire for politeness?*
Look, a lot of people posting questions on AskMe are hurting, angry, anxious, etc., AND a lot of people don't like the responses they get. But to enjoy the benefits of the community, they (generally) stick with the format of letting responses roll in without repeatedly adding comments (especially after being asked to stop doing so!).**
Nobody here is trying to chase you off; they're simply telling you how this works... and trying to give helpful advice while you learn the ropes (it's a bit ironic that you say of your ex, "She couldn't learn."). I think you could benefit from considering why you think your situation is so starkly different that you should be exempt from a certain code of conduct that's accepted by everyone else in a group of people. The same goes for the double standard of dismissiveness. Why is it okay for you to be dismissive, but deplorable when someone else is?
So again, you seem to believe you're above the "rules" of social norms. Feel free, but understand why people find that unpleasant.
*Different strokes for different folks, but 14 years into marriage, my husband and I still say please and thank you. I recognize that "Hey, c'mere!' is a bit different, but a) it may have been her tipping point if you'd refused politeness for a while, and b) after all these years, we'd still say, "Hey, got a sec? Yeah? Ok, c'mere!" See the difference? If you'd been refusing the "politeness" long enough, I can see how a request would be so much better than a command in her mind. Can you see that?
**Really, you've gotta quit with the threadsitting. Everyone is a special snowflake, okay? Most people get responses they don't like. If you truly want advice (as opposed to a place to rant), try going with the flow.
posted by whoiam at 10:55 AM on June 14, 2015 [9 favorites]
I understand what you mean about wanting to feel you can relax around intimate others, but it sounds to me that the politeness exchange, and maybe your ex harshing on your painting, might have been her attempts to establish boundaries, or to make some kind of statement of assertion about herself as a person, against your (natural, perhaps ongoing) assertion of yourself as a person. Like it sounds like it was maybe an effort to claim some space or power for herself, if you mostly dominated the atmosphere.
I honestly think I reached a point where I felt fucking ridiculous and stupid and inexperienced that I just wanted the goddamn experience of dating someone in order to feel better about myself/give myself the opportunity to relate to the rest of the world better.
So, in answer to your question, that's what happened. You dated "someone" for the experience, not because you liked her. You in fact say you loathe her. Next time, date a person you like. But not for a while, I agree with everyone on that. There are things to work through, for sure.
You see winners and losers, when you see people. I think that kind of language is connected with a way of viewing the world that's damaging both to others, when it leads you to behave abusively towards them, and to yourself, when you apply those standards to yourself. You've got absolute contempt for your ex, for what you see as her weakness. Do you hate "weakness" in yourself as much? Some failing moment will happen to you sooner or later, and that way of thinking is going to make getting over it harder than it needs to be.
Cultivating empathy would be good for you, and for your future relationships. I haven't known anyone to try to do this in therapy - usually people who could do with that avoid self-reflection; if they learn to be empathetic, it's through going through some hard knocks themselves - but it sounds like you at least want to try to make some kind of change, I mean you do want to be happier than you are. Give therapy another shot. Yeah, it's going to take time and money to try different therapists out, but it's worth it. You got some great advice above on how to go about it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:49 PM on June 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I honestly think I reached a point where I felt fucking ridiculous and stupid and inexperienced that I just wanted the goddamn experience of dating someone in order to feel better about myself/give myself the opportunity to relate to the rest of the world better.
So, in answer to your question, that's what happened. You dated "someone" for the experience, not because you liked her. You in fact say you loathe her. Next time, date a person you like. But not for a while, I agree with everyone on that. There are things to work through, for sure.
You see winners and losers, when you see people. I think that kind of language is connected with a way of viewing the world that's damaging both to others, when it leads you to behave abusively towards them, and to yourself, when you apply those standards to yourself. You've got absolute contempt for your ex, for what you see as her weakness. Do you hate "weakness" in yourself as much? Some failing moment will happen to you sooner or later, and that way of thinking is going to make getting over it harder than it needs to be.
Cultivating empathy would be good for you, and for your future relationships. I haven't known anyone to try to do this in therapy - usually people who could do with that avoid self-reflection; if they learn to be empathetic, it's through going through some hard knocks themselves - but it sounds like you at least want to try to make some kind of change, I mean you do want to be happier than you are. Give therapy another shot. Yeah, it's going to take time and money to try different therapists out, but it's worth it. You got some great advice above on how to go about it.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:49 PM on June 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
Mod note: otterboxdefender, again, please don't thread-sit in here any more. If you're bothered by people's responses, that's fine, and you can close the thread or remove it from your recent activity. But AskMe isn't a place where you can have a back-and-forth with people. You post your question, you read the answers, you mark the ones that are most useful, that's it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:08 PM on June 14, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:08 PM on June 14, 2015
Her reaction to my excitement was to be completely dismissive. It could have been about anything, not just art, and I would feel the same way. She was just a flat-out killjoy about pretty much anything.
Maybe she was a killjoy because she was tired and didn't know how to please you and she was just giving up. I know that I got there in my own unhealthy relationship. I think that you have an empathy issue, as others have suggested, but try - just for a moment - to sit down and really think about how she may have felt in this situation.
Sometimes my ex would get involved in something all day - something like your painting. He'd get into whatever it was, a craft project, a coding project, something that took his focus off of me and onto this thing, whatever it was.
I'll tell you what, I always dreaded the end of those days, because - and this was weird, until I kind of figured out what was really going on under the surface - because he would always pick a fight with me on days where he had been off doing something else. And the fight was almost always about how I was being dismissive about whatever he was excited about. Funny, how that's exactly what you're upset about here, too, in this situation. It was inevitable. And it's not because I was dismissive. It was because he felt insecure that he hadn't been in my space controlling me all day, and that made him anxious. And then he would act like a jerk to me. And he'd be angry because I wasn't validating him. And he needed to be validated by me because that validation was another way for him to reassure himself that he had control over me, and to remind himself that his time was more valuable than mine, and his hobbies and activities and whims mattered way more than mine.
I don't know if that is what is going on here with you, but I do know that you are carrying a lot of anger around about the fact that your ex dismissed you. But you know what? You don't get to go off and do your own thing and then be angry when someone else - someone who is doing her own thing, just like you were doing yours - doesn't jump to your attention and validate you on command.
Would you not have been just as angry if she had deigned to interrupt you while you were painting? Really, think about that. Wouldn't you have been just as mad if she had asked you to validate something she was doing, or to acknowledge it, while you were busy doing something that you were enjoying that was important to you? This is about feeling like she was not at your beck and call.
People are not teddy bears. They cannot be put into a closet and pulled out at your own whim.
I'm serious: You sound so much like my ex that I am worried about you. I hope that you remove those excuses and barriers that you've conveniently put up that stand between you and therapy. I am not saying that you're sick, or that something is wrong with you - I'm saying that therapy will be an incredibly helpful tool that you can use to help you build healthy relationships with people. I think you really need an objective third party to help you here. If money is a huge problem, there are some books that may be helpful. In particular, How to be an Adult in Relationships (ignore the snarky title) might help. Memail me your address and I'll send it to you if you can't afford it.
I don't know, though. You seem very invested in fighting what we say here, and I'll tell you: Metafilter saved my life, gave me the best advice I ever heard, even when it was hard to hear, even when I didn't take the advice for years. But these cats know what they're talking about. There's a pretty loud voice in this thread telling you that therapy might help, from multiple mefites whose opinions and advice are solid and aren't generally wrong. That should tell you something - and that something shouldn't be, "Oh, they just didn't have the context so they don't understand." That something should be, "Wow, maybe therapy would help. Maybe some introspection is in order." Because every time you add "context" by replying here, you dig a bit of a deeper hole. You confirm what was evident in your very question - that you're resistant to looking at yourself under a microscope and to making some serious changes.
And I get that. Man, looking at myself under the microscope is hard. It sucks. I am a person, so I am flawed, and the microscope magnifies those flaws. But by magnifying them, I can identify them and start to work on them.
You've got some stuff to work on. We all do. Grab that microscope and start looking. It won't be fun, but it will be rewarding. This is necessary work. It is work that will make your life better in the long term, even as much as it hurts or as much as it sucks in the short-term. Seriously.
Best of luck to you.
posted by sockermom at 8:25 AM on June 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
Maybe she was a killjoy because she was tired and didn't know how to please you and she was just giving up. I know that I got there in my own unhealthy relationship. I think that you have an empathy issue, as others have suggested, but try - just for a moment - to sit down and really think about how she may have felt in this situation.
Sometimes my ex would get involved in something all day - something like your painting. He'd get into whatever it was, a craft project, a coding project, something that took his focus off of me and onto this thing, whatever it was.
I'll tell you what, I always dreaded the end of those days, because - and this was weird, until I kind of figured out what was really going on under the surface - because he would always pick a fight with me on days where he had been off doing something else. And the fight was almost always about how I was being dismissive about whatever he was excited about. Funny, how that's exactly what you're upset about here, too, in this situation. It was inevitable. And it's not because I was dismissive. It was because he felt insecure that he hadn't been in my space controlling me all day, and that made him anxious. And then he would act like a jerk to me. And he'd be angry because I wasn't validating him. And he needed to be validated by me because that validation was another way for him to reassure himself that he had control over me, and to remind himself that his time was more valuable than mine, and his hobbies and activities and whims mattered way more than mine.
I don't know if that is what is going on here with you, but I do know that you are carrying a lot of anger around about the fact that your ex dismissed you. But you know what? You don't get to go off and do your own thing and then be angry when someone else - someone who is doing her own thing, just like you were doing yours - doesn't jump to your attention and validate you on command.
Would you not have been just as angry if she had deigned to interrupt you while you were painting? Really, think about that. Wouldn't you have been just as mad if she had asked you to validate something she was doing, or to acknowledge it, while you were busy doing something that you were enjoying that was important to you? This is about feeling like she was not at your beck and call.
People are not teddy bears. They cannot be put into a closet and pulled out at your own whim.
I'm serious: You sound so much like my ex that I am worried about you. I hope that you remove those excuses and barriers that you've conveniently put up that stand between you and therapy. I am not saying that you're sick, or that something is wrong with you - I'm saying that therapy will be an incredibly helpful tool that you can use to help you build healthy relationships with people. I think you really need an objective third party to help you here. If money is a huge problem, there are some books that may be helpful. In particular, How to be an Adult in Relationships (ignore the snarky title) might help. Memail me your address and I'll send it to you if you can't afford it.
I don't know, though. You seem very invested in fighting what we say here, and I'll tell you: Metafilter saved my life, gave me the best advice I ever heard, even when it was hard to hear, even when I didn't take the advice for years. But these cats know what they're talking about. There's a pretty loud voice in this thread telling you that therapy might help, from multiple mefites whose opinions and advice are solid and aren't generally wrong. That should tell you something - and that something shouldn't be, "Oh, they just didn't have the context so they don't understand." That something should be, "Wow, maybe therapy would help. Maybe some introspection is in order." Because every time you add "context" by replying here, you dig a bit of a deeper hole. You confirm what was evident in your very question - that you're resistant to looking at yourself under a microscope and to making some serious changes.
And I get that. Man, looking at myself under the microscope is hard. It sucks. I am a person, so I am flawed, and the microscope magnifies those flaws. But by magnifying them, I can identify them and start to work on them.
You've got some stuff to work on. We all do. Grab that microscope and start looking. It won't be fun, but it will be rewarding. This is necessary work. It is work that will make your life better in the long term, even as much as it hurts or as much as it sucks in the short-term. Seriously.
Best of luck to you.
posted by sockermom at 8:25 AM on June 15, 2015 [9 favorites]
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To my mind, you don't seem to know what you want from a long-term relationship beyond simply having one.
"To me, politeness is a barrier" contradicts "I think that that's bullshit and that white lies are good for protecting fragile egos (like mine.)"
posted by RainyJay at 3:07 PM on June 13, 2015 [39 favorites]