Yet another quitting PhD thread, Neuroscience & developmental Biology
June 11, 2015 8:51 AM Subscribe
Considering quitting PhD but not sure on how to proceed.
I am OLD, really old (38), worked on my PhD in Neuroscience & Developmental Biology in one of the top European universities (but I am not European, nor American) for 7 years, between 2003 to 2010. I have masters from another European university, not that well known. I enrolled in PhD primarily because I like teaching and was really planning to get into teaching (but not research Prof type).
In the beginning, PhD was great. I was making good progress until my key project was scooped out by a 'collaborator'. It pretty much came as a shock to everyone in the lab, including the advisor. Since then, it went downhill. Long story short, it was pretty unpleasant by the time I left. The advisor wasn't advising but making sure that he keeps hitting on my self confidence, how I am not a 'research material'. I was totally miserable, wreaked, passion in the project totally lost and I was dragging each day. Lucky that we had good post-docs in the lab and they did the role of advising. By the end of 2010, I finished all my lab work and was planning to write thesis. Although I was wreaked and living on daily Advil, I still wanted to finish it up. Almost everyone in the lab was taking anti-anxiety medication. All but one left by the end of 2010.
Just then, my toddler got diagnosed with developmental disability, that required complete attention from both of us parents. My wife's job was well paying and we still needed to pay the bills so DW kept working and I became stay-at-home Dad, taking care of our toddler. My goal was, to get all help my child needs and then eventually come back and defend thesis.
For the sake of availability of services, we moved to the US. 5 years of rigorous therapy and medical intervention helped my child, a lot, to an extent that once serious issues have now become minor. So prefect time to defend thesis, esp. when 4 papers out of my PhD work published during the period I was home (One first author, rest co-authored. All papers published in journal with impact factor 5+, highest being 10, not my first author paper. All papers have at least 15 citations).
I get on to reading papers and all old memories came back rushing and first time in my life, I had a panic attack, that lasted almost 4 days. During that period, I went to see a physician for another reason and my pulse was 98 (which should have been in 60s because of some medications I take). The physician did an EKG, which came out fine. That got me thinking, do I really want to go through all that miserable period to get my thesis. I seriously started thinking on quitting PhD (but my wife wants me to go through the stress mill and give one shot, which is another year of dealing with my advisor).
So whats wrong, just like all other 'Quitting Grad School' threads offer some or the other kind of advice on how I can still have my career. So my issues are
- If I quit, where would I stand in the pharma job market, esp when there is roughly 1:4 PhD: masters applicants. Does having published articles give me an edge over other masters, in spite of me being old, and a gap in my CV?
- I don't want to throw my child's health issues under the bus to explain the gap, but I don't want to lie either. How do I explain that (either in CV or cover letter) that CV won't go in trash for that point.
- If I defend my thesis, IMO, getting PhD will harm me as I won't be as competitive as other PhDs coming out due to the time I spent at home.
- I am lagging behind in skills. I used cutting edge technologies during my work but now they are falling out of favor and new are coming up. I won't be able to compete with masters as I am over-qualified.
- I do not want to go back to academia, but industry as we still need more money than other parents to address lingering medical issues for my child. (Currently, we are living paycheck to paycheck as the insurance doesn't cover majority of the medical bills.)
- If I can get non-lab related job, I will be more than happy but I can't figure out how to get my foot in the door. For e.g. I know there are some analyst that IT industry needs to bridge gap between Pharma industry and IT industry. My bachelors is in Pharmaceutical Sciences, and I will be more than happy to give a shot to such job (but again, I don't have experience in this precise job).
I will be glad if I can get some wise words from industry hiring managers on how I should proceed? Also, if it will be OK to me-mail you guys in case I need more information on some point that you suggest.
Thanks a million in advance.
I am OLD, really old (38), worked on my PhD in Neuroscience & Developmental Biology in one of the top European universities (but I am not European, nor American) for 7 years, between 2003 to 2010. I have masters from another European university, not that well known. I enrolled in PhD primarily because I like teaching and was really planning to get into teaching (but not research Prof type).
In the beginning, PhD was great. I was making good progress until my key project was scooped out by a 'collaborator'. It pretty much came as a shock to everyone in the lab, including the advisor. Since then, it went downhill. Long story short, it was pretty unpleasant by the time I left. The advisor wasn't advising but making sure that he keeps hitting on my self confidence, how I am not a 'research material'. I was totally miserable, wreaked, passion in the project totally lost and I was dragging each day. Lucky that we had good post-docs in the lab and they did the role of advising. By the end of 2010, I finished all my lab work and was planning to write thesis. Although I was wreaked and living on daily Advil, I still wanted to finish it up. Almost everyone in the lab was taking anti-anxiety medication. All but one left by the end of 2010.
Just then, my toddler got diagnosed with developmental disability, that required complete attention from both of us parents. My wife's job was well paying and we still needed to pay the bills so DW kept working and I became stay-at-home Dad, taking care of our toddler. My goal was, to get all help my child needs and then eventually come back and defend thesis.
For the sake of availability of services, we moved to the US. 5 years of rigorous therapy and medical intervention helped my child, a lot, to an extent that once serious issues have now become minor. So prefect time to defend thesis, esp. when 4 papers out of my PhD work published during the period I was home (One first author, rest co-authored. All papers published in journal with impact factor 5+, highest being 10, not my first author paper. All papers have at least 15 citations).
I get on to reading papers and all old memories came back rushing and first time in my life, I had a panic attack, that lasted almost 4 days. During that period, I went to see a physician for another reason and my pulse was 98 (which should have been in 60s because of some medications I take). The physician did an EKG, which came out fine. That got me thinking, do I really want to go through all that miserable period to get my thesis. I seriously started thinking on quitting PhD (but my wife wants me to go through the stress mill and give one shot, which is another year of dealing with my advisor).
So whats wrong, just like all other 'Quitting Grad School' threads offer some or the other kind of advice on how I can still have my career. So my issues are
- If I quit, where would I stand in the pharma job market, esp when there is roughly 1:4 PhD: masters applicants. Does having published articles give me an edge over other masters, in spite of me being old, and a gap in my CV?
- I don't want to throw my child's health issues under the bus to explain the gap, but I don't want to lie either. How do I explain that (either in CV or cover letter) that CV won't go in trash for that point.
- If I defend my thesis, IMO, getting PhD will harm me as I won't be as competitive as other PhDs coming out due to the time I spent at home.
- I am lagging behind in skills. I used cutting edge technologies during my work but now they are falling out of favor and new are coming up. I won't be able to compete with masters as I am over-qualified.
- I do not want to go back to academia, but industry as we still need more money than other parents to address lingering medical issues for my child. (Currently, we are living paycheck to paycheck as the insurance doesn't cover majority of the medical bills.)
- If I can get non-lab related job, I will be more than happy but I can't figure out how to get my foot in the door. For e.g. I know there are some analyst that IT industry needs to bridge gap between Pharma industry and IT industry. My bachelors is in Pharmaceutical Sciences, and I will be more than happy to give a shot to such job (but again, I don't have experience in this precise job).
I will be glad if I can get some wise words from industry hiring managers on how I should proceed? Also, if it will be OK to me-mail you guys in case I need more information on some point that you suggest.
Thanks a million in advance.
I know this is an out-there suggestion, given your current financial constraints, but the training to become a physician's assistant is 2-3 years; there's no residency, you'd be able to work straight away; you'd fly through it with your background; and it's a fairly sure return - would living with your or your SO's parents be possible for a while?
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:38 AM on June 11, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:38 AM on June 11, 2015
I don't want to break bad news. But neuro is a rough field right now. The job market is fairly unforgiving. I know many post-docs who can't find jobs and they are at one of the best labs in the US, with high profile (e.g. Science) publications. They are looking both in academia and industry. It's just a tough time to have a phd. Typically people go through two postdocs before moving into a career. So I think not having the phd will definitely be an issue.
That said: I do not recommend finishing the PhD. It takes a village and with an uncooperative advisor? You're toast. You will have a heck of a time at your defense. I saw some of the best scholars in my own doctoral program flounder and nearly fail defenses because of bad advisors. I know two people - good scholars - who were ushered out with a masters in neuro-bio because their advisors respectively threw them under the bus when it was time to defend. Science is not pretty. And this is all just the practical stuff. Emotionally speaking if your advisor is a jerk, your life will be hell. Unless you can switch advisors I would not pursue the doctorate any longer.
I think looking at alternative career paths is your best bet. Hopefully other Mefites have better ideas than I do. The ones above are a great start. Also, consider an admin type position like a lab manager at an academic institution. Lab managers are not part of the political part of science and they get to run experiments and are also authors on publications (never first author, though, that I know of) and you'll get to use your already-developed skills.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 12:40 PM on June 11, 2015
That said: I do not recommend finishing the PhD. It takes a village and with an uncooperative advisor? You're toast. You will have a heck of a time at your defense. I saw some of the best scholars in my own doctoral program flounder and nearly fail defenses because of bad advisors. I know two people - good scholars - who were ushered out with a masters in neuro-bio because their advisors respectively threw them under the bus when it was time to defend. Science is not pretty. And this is all just the practical stuff. Emotionally speaking if your advisor is a jerk, your life will be hell. Unless you can switch advisors I would not pursue the doctorate any longer.
I think looking at alternative career paths is your best bet. Hopefully other Mefites have better ideas than I do. The ones above are a great start. Also, consider an admin type position like a lab manager at an academic institution. Lab managers are not part of the political part of science and they get to run experiments and are also authors on publications (never first author, though, that I know of) and you'll get to use your already-developed skills.
Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 12:40 PM on June 11, 2015
Is there another faculty member there you could talk to about your situation who is not an asshole and would give you some frank advice? If so, they might understand reality better than random internet strangers.
Otherwise: It seems a shame for you to get this far and leave without the PhD credential. That said, it sounds like the credential would not actually be very useful for you given your goals. The same amount of time and effort spent looking for a job or re-training would probably be more useful.
posted by grouse at 1:10 PM on June 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Otherwise: It seems a shame for you to get this far and leave without the PhD credential. That said, it sounds like the credential would not actually be very useful for you given your goals. The same amount of time and effort spent looking for a job or re-training would probably be more useful.
posted by grouse at 1:10 PM on June 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
MSc Immunology and PhD Molecular Neuroscience. Seconding that neuro is really rough right now. I've did a 2 year stint with a (terrible, awful, total BS) biotech, rage-quit, and went way sideways and joined up with a pharma startup in a managerial/C-level role.
(Good) Pharma/biotech jobs are really rare; companies are consolidating and shedding research staff. The market is flooded with unemployed researchers with lots of industry experience.
If there's any way to swing a MSc with what you've currently accomplished, that may very well be worth much more than a PhD. However, you won't get to make any decisions (not that as a junior PhD industry researcher you'll have much more) and you're essentially just a up-jumped tech, but there are vastly more jobs for MScs than PhDs. Vastly only relative to jobs requiring PhDs, but in absolute scale, there really aren't that many.
However, with a MSc you can join academic/semi-academic labs as a tech or a lab manager or something. With that PhD (and no postdoc), you're very likely out of luck.
Left field; cold call academic researchers in your area, give a very very brief version of what you wrote here (like, reduce it to 4 regular-length sentences), and see if they're looking for a research assistant or a lab manager. Target new faculty since if they're starting up their first lab, they need some warm bodies, and if they just moved they might not have been able to convince their staff to move with them.
posted by porpoise at 4:28 PM on June 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
(Good) Pharma/biotech jobs are really rare; companies are consolidating and shedding research staff. The market is flooded with unemployed researchers with lots of industry experience.
If there's any way to swing a MSc with what you've currently accomplished, that may very well be worth much more than a PhD. However, you won't get to make any decisions (not that as a junior PhD industry researcher you'll have much more) and you're essentially just a up-jumped tech, but there are vastly more jobs for MScs than PhDs. Vastly only relative to jobs requiring PhDs, but in absolute scale, there really aren't that many.
However, with a MSc you can join academic/semi-academic labs as a tech or a lab manager or something. With that PhD (and no postdoc), you're very likely out of luck.
Left field; cold call academic researchers in your area, give a very very brief version of what you wrote here (like, reduce it to 4 regular-length sentences), and see if they're looking for a research assistant or a lab manager. Target new faculty since if they're starting up their first lab, they need some warm bodies, and if they just moved they might not have been able to convince their staff to move with them.
posted by porpoise at 4:28 PM on June 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Since you don't plan on pursuing a job in academia, how important is it that you write a first-rate thesis? I wonder if this isn't time to approach completion from the perspective that "a good thesis is a finished thesis." Then you have the credential and won't be haunted by your decision to leave your program altogether when the end was in sight.
I agree with Grouse that you should consult with another professor, one who understands what happened in your lab and who is willing to help you construct a plan for finishing.
It's not surprising that you are having anxiety whenever you try to get back to work, but those reactions can be managed. In fact, I'd guess that your materials immediately conjure up your professor's criticisms, and if you think about it, that's kind of a rational response. Advisers are supposed to advise not wreck your self-confidence. Consider reading at least the first couple of chapters of Annie LaMott's Bird by Bird. It's a book on writing but her section on writing "shitty first drafts" includes a great exercise for silencing the inner critic. It does involve thinking about rats, so maybe it will work for a laboratory scientist as well as it does us humanities types. :)
The only other thing I'll mention is that the psychological distress your experiencing isn't telling you the truth about your abilities. I remember believing that it would take months for me to write a chapter. Now when I see students working on their dissertations and being tortured by self-doubt, I wish I could convince them that they are fully capable of getting through the work they think is insurmountable in a few weeks. That's tough to do when anxiety has magnified the size of the challenge.
I know I haven't mentioned your very real practical concerns regarding your son and job prospects. I say don't let finishing take great amounts of attention away from your son. Make a plan to do a "good-enough" dissertation in a period of time that respects your responsibility to your family. I don't know enough about your field to say anything about job prospects, but I can't imagine a situation in which a finished PhD wouldn't be more helpful than listing yourself as ABD. For some of the jobs you are talking about and that have been mentioned in this thread, employers are likely to be impressed with your accomplishments without asking to read your work.
posted by GeorgieYeats at 8:53 PM on June 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree with Grouse that you should consult with another professor, one who understands what happened in your lab and who is willing to help you construct a plan for finishing.
It's not surprising that you are having anxiety whenever you try to get back to work, but those reactions can be managed. In fact, I'd guess that your materials immediately conjure up your professor's criticisms, and if you think about it, that's kind of a rational response. Advisers are supposed to advise not wreck your self-confidence. Consider reading at least the first couple of chapters of Annie LaMott's Bird by Bird. It's a book on writing but her section on writing "shitty first drafts" includes a great exercise for silencing the inner critic. It does involve thinking about rats, so maybe it will work for a laboratory scientist as well as it does us humanities types. :)
The only other thing I'll mention is that the psychological distress your experiencing isn't telling you the truth about your abilities. I remember believing that it would take months for me to write a chapter. Now when I see students working on their dissertations and being tortured by self-doubt, I wish I could convince them that they are fully capable of getting through the work they think is insurmountable in a few weeks. That's tough to do when anxiety has magnified the size of the challenge.
I know I haven't mentioned your very real practical concerns regarding your son and job prospects. I say don't let finishing take great amounts of attention away from your son. Make a plan to do a "good-enough" dissertation in a period of time that respects your responsibility to your family. I don't know enough about your field to say anything about job prospects, but I can't imagine a situation in which a finished PhD wouldn't be more helpful than listing yourself as ABD. For some of the jobs you are talking about and that have been mentioned in this thread, employers are likely to be impressed with your accomplishments without asking to read your work.
posted by GeorgieYeats at 8:53 PM on June 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:06 AM on June 11, 2015 [1 favorite]