Please help me deprogram my girlfriend.
June 2, 2015 10:11 AM Subscribe
My GF is becoming ever more involved in Soka Gakkai International, to the point of major time & financial commitments. I've abided with her chanting for 2 years assuming it was a silly if harmless hobby, but now it seems threatening. I need advice on how to raise my concerns with her.
We're 5 years into an otherwise wonderful relationship. All is well in our lives apart from professionally: we're both self-employed with various semi-jobs, all of which comes with some anxiety. We have a brilliant social life together and individually, and the social scene we're primarily engaged in is integral to our main careers. The majority of stresses in our relationship come from financial quibbles, with the rest coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
I've known since meeting her that she tends to over-rely on magical thinking, as she was superficially into Wicca when me met (being a theatrical type I figured she enjoyed the props and acting out the rituals) and has continued to read astrology, something I've always gently ribbed her for.
I made it clear from the outset that I tend to be very rational (in response to which she has nicknamed me Spock), but not past the point of pragmatism: I'm happy for people to believe whatever they like if it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else. The placebo effect is an incredible thing and if a bit of fuzzy thinking makes you feel good, then the longterm benefits likely outweigh the drawbacks in my opinion.
These last 2 years she's given up the Wicca and fallen in with SGI. She chants twice a day, on average 30 minutes a time. In times of particular stress she goes for an hour a time. She believes, as per the instruction of the SGI, that this chanting is literally able to bend reality to her will, and as such she now views everything in her life through a lens of confirmation bias, cherry picking the good things as direct results of chanting, and seeing all the bad as the consequences of not chanting enough.
This immediately struck me as a worryingly neurotic mentality, but thus far every time she's brought it up I've been able to laugh it off and rib her for thinking that way, just like with the astrology: it's just a quirk she has. She's daft. But I love her.
I've also quietly objected to the time that she commits to the chanting: she would potentially have no cause for most of her anxieties if she just turned that time towards anything productive, rather than trying to palliate the anxieties that come from not being productive enough. As far as I can tell her chanting is functionally no different from a weed, booze or Warcraft habit; people get stressed, they need something to take the edge off. But of course when that habit expands unchecked and starts causing more problems than it fixes, it's addition. I'm worried she's getting to that point, and the SGI crowd she's getting involved with are only encouraging it.
Last weekend she went away to an SGI conclave. She paid £85 for basic bed and board whilst volunteering to help run the event, doing general schlep work of dishwashing, scheduling and showing people around all weekend - she came home physically drained from the workload. Apparently all SGI events are run by majority volunteer labour, without any attendance discount, which is I guess one reason they're a multibillion dollar corporation.
Despite the demands of time, money and energy it took, she's buoyed by all the stories of people transforming their lives just through chanting - tripling their incomes! Finding true love! Curing chronic depression and cancer! Finding success in business! Now she's seriously considering doing it every month, a major dedication of her time and money, which to me is utterly incomprehensible given our current situation: her energy levels, her bank account, her non-SGI social life, her professional commitments, and our relationship will all be greatly damaged by something that is if not a full-fledged cult, then a pernicious corporate lifestyle product.
Obviously I am worried, and there are flares of anger arising the more I think about what this all entails. But I recognise the danger of pushing her deeper into this weirdness should I raise my concerns in a bullheaded or Spock-like manner. Can anyone help me with suggestions as to how to go about conducting a productive dialogue on this and not just paying for Conformco to kidnap and counter-brainwash her for 2 weeks?
Thanks.
We're 5 years into an otherwise wonderful relationship. All is well in our lives apart from professionally: we're both self-employed with various semi-jobs, all of which comes with some anxiety. We have a brilliant social life together and individually, and the social scene we're primarily engaged in is integral to our main careers. The majority of stresses in our relationship come from financial quibbles, with the rest coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
I've known since meeting her that she tends to over-rely on magical thinking, as she was superficially into Wicca when me met (being a theatrical type I figured she enjoyed the props and acting out the rituals) and has continued to read astrology, something I've always gently ribbed her for.
I made it clear from the outset that I tend to be very rational (in response to which she has nicknamed me Spock), but not past the point of pragmatism: I'm happy for people to believe whatever they like if it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else. The placebo effect is an incredible thing and if a bit of fuzzy thinking makes you feel good, then the longterm benefits likely outweigh the drawbacks in my opinion.
These last 2 years she's given up the Wicca and fallen in with SGI. She chants twice a day, on average 30 minutes a time. In times of particular stress she goes for an hour a time. She believes, as per the instruction of the SGI, that this chanting is literally able to bend reality to her will, and as such she now views everything in her life through a lens of confirmation bias, cherry picking the good things as direct results of chanting, and seeing all the bad as the consequences of not chanting enough.
This immediately struck me as a worryingly neurotic mentality, but thus far every time she's brought it up I've been able to laugh it off and rib her for thinking that way, just like with the astrology: it's just a quirk she has. She's daft. But I love her.
I've also quietly objected to the time that she commits to the chanting: she would potentially have no cause for most of her anxieties if she just turned that time towards anything productive, rather than trying to palliate the anxieties that come from not being productive enough. As far as I can tell her chanting is functionally no different from a weed, booze or Warcraft habit; people get stressed, they need something to take the edge off. But of course when that habit expands unchecked and starts causing more problems than it fixes, it's addition. I'm worried she's getting to that point, and the SGI crowd she's getting involved with are only encouraging it.
Last weekend she went away to an SGI conclave. She paid £85 for basic bed and board whilst volunteering to help run the event, doing general schlep work of dishwashing, scheduling and showing people around all weekend - she came home physically drained from the workload. Apparently all SGI events are run by majority volunteer labour, without any attendance discount, which is I guess one reason they're a multibillion dollar corporation.
Despite the demands of time, money and energy it took, she's buoyed by all the stories of people transforming their lives just through chanting - tripling their incomes! Finding true love! Curing chronic depression and cancer! Finding success in business! Now she's seriously considering doing it every month, a major dedication of her time and money, which to me is utterly incomprehensible given our current situation: her energy levels, her bank account, her non-SGI social life, her professional commitments, and our relationship will all be greatly damaged by something that is if not a full-fledged cult, then a pernicious corporate lifestyle product.
Obviously I am worried, and there are flares of anger arising the more I think about what this all entails. But I recognise the danger of pushing her deeper into this weirdness should I raise my concerns in a bullheaded or Spock-like manner. Can anyone help me with suggestions as to how to go about conducting a productive dialogue on this and not just paying for Conformco to kidnap and counter-brainwash her for 2 weeks?
Thanks.
Unless you and your girlfriend already share finances, it's not really your business how she spends her free time or money. If it's not something that you're into, there are plenty of girls out there who don't spend their time this way.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:28 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
You know, if you DO share finances and this is a really big deal, you should sit down with her and say, look, I can totally support you doing all the chanting and stuff but we need this money and if the chanting works, it'll work whether or not you go to the special enclave events. And see how she reacts to that.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
That oft-repeated, excellent advice applies here: you can't control other people, you can only control your reactions to other people.
She is going to a place where you are completely unwilling to go (understandable). It sounds like you'll have to just gently and quietly point out to her that you're growing apart; if she values this thing more than your relationship, then she should either 1) take a look at this thing more carefully and see if it's really what she wants, or 2) sever the relationship and find someone with whom she wants to share this current journey. What she really can't do is just string you along and demand that you do all the things that she wants you to do, including just sitting around waiting for her to come home. Tell her that.
posted by Melismata at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
She is going to a place where you are completely unwilling to go (understandable). It sounds like you'll have to just gently and quietly point out to her that you're growing apart; if she values this thing more than your relationship, then she should either 1) take a look at this thing more carefully and see if it's really what she wants, or 2) sever the relationship and find someone with whom she wants to share this current journey. What she really can't do is just string you along and demand that you do all the things that she wants you to do, including just sitting around waiting for her to come home. Tell her that.
posted by Melismata at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Instead of focusing on the woo spirituality aspect, can you come at this from a budgeting (money and time) angle? I'm not clear if you live together or your finances are intertwined, but if they are, can you sit down and figure out a budget to stick to? If she has £100 in discretionary income a month, she can spend it on whatever she likes, even if it's woo. Likewise with time - can you plan date nights or time together on specific days? She can do whatever she likes on Monday nights, for example, but Tuesday nights you are committed to being together.
If she really can't commit and stick to these things, then you have a larger issue and I agree it's similar to a gaming addiction in that it's negatively affecting her life without any apparent gain. But I would give this a try first. Telling her that her spirituality is invalid is unlikely to go well and she may side with her newfound friends instead of you.
posted by desjardins at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
If she really can't commit and stick to these things, then you have a larger issue and I agree it's similar to a gaming addiction in that it's negatively affecting her life without any apparent gain. But I would give this a try first. Telling her that her spirituality is invalid is unlikely to go well and she may side with her newfound friends instead of you.
posted by desjardins at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
i think first you need to stop seeing yourself as some logic-bot above it all and her as some daft girl who doesn't understand the world. your lack of respect for her is evident in the ways you discuss her, you, your interactions, etc. maybe if she wants to you can help her find other mindful meditation type things so she's not focusing all of her energy into this one thing - but you'll only be able to do that if she doesn't think you're mocking her closely held beliefs.
posted by nadawi at 10:34 AM on June 2, 2015 [81 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:34 AM on June 2, 2015 [81 favorites]
Also, despite the fact that SGI does seem pretty kooky, I would reframe this in your mind:
I've also quietly objected to the time that she commits to the chanting: she would potentially have no cause for most of her anxieties if she just turned that time towards anything productive, rather than trying to palliate the anxieties that come from not being productive enough. As far as I can tell her chanting is functionally no different from a weed, booze or Warcraft habit; people get stressed, they need something to take the edge off. But of course when that habit expands unchecked and starts causing more problems than it fixes, it's addition.
That is not how religion and/or meditation works or is meant to work. It isn't a way to turn off your brain and escape from your problems - it is meant to suffuse your entire life and to actively make it better.
You probably have some beliefs that you would say inform everything you do, that you keep in the back of your mind and nurture and look at everything through the lens of. Such as empiricism! That is what Wicca and SGI and astrology do for your GF. They aren't amusing things she picks up and puts down as a form of stress relief, they are life philosophies.
I wonder if you don't like to think about it like that because then you would have to admit that you and your GF are way more different than you're comfortable with.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:34 AM on June 2, 2015 [40 favorites]
I've also quietly objected to the time that she commits to the chanting: she would potentially have no cause for most of her anxieties if she just turned that time towards anything productive, rather than trying to palliate the anxieties that come from not being productive enough. As far as I can tell her chanting is functionally no different from a weed, booze or Warcraft habit; people get stressed, they need something to take the edge off. But of course when that habit expands unchecked and starts causing more problems than it fixes, it's addition.
That is not how religion and/or meditation works or is meant to work. It isn't a way to turn off your brain and escape from your problems - it is meant to suffuse your entire life and to actively make it better.
You probably have some beliefs that you would say inform everything you do, that you keep in the back of your mind and nurture and look at everything through the lens of. Such as empiricism! That is what Wicca and SGI and astrology do for your GF. They aren't amusing things she picks up and puts down as a form of stress relief, they are life philosophies.
I wonder if you don't like to think about it like that because then you would have to admit that you and your GF are way more different than you're comfortable with.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:34 AM on June 2, 2015 [40 favorites]
I think this ultimately comes down to whether you believe SGI is a cult or not.
Because you are either growing apart or she is in need of intervention. Those are very different things.
posted by French Fry at 10:37 AM on June 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
Because you are either growing apart or she is in need of intervention. Those are very different things.
posted by French Fry at 10:37 AM on June 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
On the one hand, £85 is not a lot of money, and it sounds like she gets a lot out of it.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be able to put up with this brand of exploitative woo, and it would definitely be a dealbreaker for me. Unfortunately I don't think there's any magic way to get her to give this up -- you'll have to make a choice.
posted by crazy with stars at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
On the other hand, I wouldn't be able to put up with this brand of exploitative woo, and it would definitely be a dealbreaker for me. Unfortunately I don't think there's any magic way to get her to give this up -- you'll have to make a choice.
posted by crazy with stars at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think that if you want her to take your point of view seriously, you need to stop with the "ribbing."
By making it clear to her that you find her beliefs to be foolish, you're putting up a barrier to her listening to you at all. When you say "Honey, I love you but we can't afford 85 quid a week for you to do this thing," she is probably thinking "Poor Kandarp isn't enlightened enough to understand why this thing is important, of course he doesn't want me to spend my money and time on this."
You don't have to start chanting with her or anything, but try treating her religious beliefs the same way that you would if she were a late convert to Christianity or Islam, and see if that helps her to believe you when you try to warn her away from the destructive elements of this thing.
Long term though, if she continues to prioritize her new beliefs over her relationship, it might be time for you to think about separating.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:48 AM on June 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
By making it clear to her that you find her beliefs to be foolish, you're putting up a barrier to her listening to you at all. When you say "Honey, I love you but we can't afford 85 quid a week for you to do this thing," she is probably thinking "Poor Kandarp isn't enlightened enough to understand why this thing is important, of course he doesn't want me to spend my money and time on this."
You don't have to start chanting with her or anything, but try treating her religious beliefs the same way that you would if she were a late convert to Christianity or Islam, and see if that helps her to believe you when you try to warn her away from the destructive elements of this thing.
Long term though, if she continues to prioritize her new beliefs over her relationship, it might be time for you to think about separating.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:48 AM on June 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Even beyond the cultish stuff, they're an extremely sketchy organization to get mixed up in - their political party is known mostly for lining up the religious right in Japan next to the LDP, supporting getting rid of Article 9 to invade Iraq (despite ostensibly basing their belief system on Buddhist pacifism), and engaging in widespread electoral fraud. Your girlfriend's business is her business, but my advice would be to run, not walk.
posted by fifthrider at 10:49 AM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by fifthrider at 10:49 AM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
How have you approached this discussion with her? What is it that you want - her to leave this group behind? Her to explain it to you or present evidence so that you can tolerate it better within the context of your relationship?
Anyway, from where I'm standing, she spent about $130 for room and board of a weekend and chants a lot and that seems...fine. To me, that's not a big deal.
Lots of things that seem "legitimate" or serious are pay to play, promotional type things that cost far more than this. Ever heard of $10,000 a table at an awards banquet? Ever get hit up for annual giving? How about having to buy your ticket - as a nominee - for an awards ceremony, or even getting a bill for the trophy/plaque? How about "You've gotta attend this year's conference! There's going to be so much super secret, vital, inside info and you absolutely can NOT miss this opportunity to network...." And how about church? Are you familiar with tithing?
So she believes more in woo than you do. People need to believe in things and derive comfort from shared experiences. She's not being asked to abandon her family and renounce her old way of life and move to a compound, is she? And if she is, then you have to decide how to relate to her going forward, or if that's really what you want.
This is her choice. Your tone is pretty dismissive and down your nose, I have to say, even though I don't subscribe to this particular belief system and would find its practices tedious and unappealing.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 10:51 AM on June 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Anyway, from where I'm standing, she spent about $130 for room and board of a weekend and chants a lot and that seems...fine. To me, that's not a big deal.
Lots of things that seem "legitimate" or serious are pay to play, promotional type things that cost far more than this. Ever heard of $10,000 a table at an awards banquet? Ever get hit up for annual giving? How about having to buy your ticket - as a nominee - for an awards ceremony, or even getting a bill for the trophy/plaque? How about "You've gotta attend this year's conference! There's going to be so much super secret, vital, inside info and you absolutely can NOT miss this opportunity to network...." And how about church? Are you familiar with tithing?
So she believes more in woo than you do. People need to believe in things and derive comfort from shared experiences. She's not being asked to abandon her family and renounce her old way of life and move to a compound, is she? And if she is, then you have to decide how to relate to her going forward, or if that's really what you want.
This is her choice. Your tone is pretty dismissive and down your nose, I have to say, even though I don't subscribe to this particular belief system and would find its practices tedious and unappealing.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 10:51 AM on June 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am totally unfamiliar with SGI so I can't comment on the specifics relating to that.
It reads to me that, totally overlooking the whole SGI is a cult thing, you and your girlfriend are pretty hugely different people with two pretty different takes on lifestyle, spirituality, time and work etc. Even before the SGI involvement it sounds like there was a pretty major disconnect. I'm like you, I don't get all the spiritual, mystical stuff like astrology and wicca, it all sounds nutsy to me, and the fact that you don't value or believe in these things that are so important to her can make it really hard to understand the appeal, and it can feel like any amount of time or money invested in it is a waste.
De-magic it and pretend her interest was something more mainstream, like rockclimbing, and she was spending the same amount of time, energy, money etc. on rockclimbing instead of chanting and SGI. Would you still be upset? People spend just as much time and money (or more) on a lot of hobbies and interests, and I get the sense that maybe you wouldn't object so much if her interest was in something more mainstream that you could understand.
Either way, I personally would walk away. I couldn't be in a long term relationship with someone who believes so strongly in something I find to be ridiculous, and I couldn't be in a long term relationship with someone who is increasingly valuing said ridiculous-to-me thing over me, our life, and our relationship.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2015 [17 favorites]
It reads to me that, totally overlooking the whole SGI is a cult thing, you and your girlfriend are pretty hugely different people with two pretty different takes on lifestyle, spirituality, time and work etc. Even before the SGI involvement it sounds like there was a pretty major disconnect. I'm like you, I don't get all the spiritual, mystical stuff like astrology and wicca, it all sounds nutsy to me, and the fact that you don't value or believe in these things that are so important to her can make it really hard to understand the appeal, and it can feel like any amount of time or money invested in it is a waste.
De-magic it and pretend her interest was something more mainstream, like rockclimbing, and she was spending the same amount of time, energy, money etc. on rockclimbing instead of chanting and SGI. Would you still be upset? People spend just as much time and money (or more) on a lot of hobbies and interests, and I get the sense that maybe you wouldn't object so much if her interest was in something more mainstream that you could understand.
Either way, I personally would walk away. I couldn't be in a long term relationship with someone who believes so strongly in something I find to be ridiculous, and I couldn't be in a long term relationship with someone who is increasingly valuing said ridiculous-to-me thing over me, our life, and our relationship.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2015 [17 favorites]
I would be most concerned with what is next. She has proven herself to be someone who jumps all the way in to the koolaid. It is unlikely that she will stay with this organization forever. It is, however, a pretty safe bet that if you wean her away from this one, she's only going to find another one.
You could try finding a safer outlet for her like yoga, which is still very expensive. My advice is to not have children with her and enjoy her for who she is for as long as you can stand her. She's just not that into reality and you can't change that.
posted by myselfasme at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
You could try finding a safer outlet for her like yoga, which is still very expensive. My advice is to not have children with her and enjoy her for who she is for as long as you can stand her. She's just not that into reality and you can't change that.
posted by myselfasme at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
You want to help her and to spend time together rather than her having to look outside of your relationship for help and support. Tell her that. That's a far more constructive approach than just mocking her beliefs.
If you absolutely can't stand her believing in this sort of stuff, or if you can't respect her while she does, it's time to look elsewhere.
posted by dvrmmr at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you absolutely can't stand her believing in this sort of stuff, or if you can't respect her while she does, it's time to look elsewhere.
posted by dvrmmr at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
The majority of stresses in our relationship come from financial quibbles, with the rest coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
Does she agree with this statement?
If so, then you must approach SGI, chanting and retreats from these two foci of stress 1) Finances and 2) Time with each other.
PERIOD. Full stop.
Stop with the ribbing, stop being a Spock, and start being a compassionate boyfriend.
The first issue, finances. If she's making all her payments, and fulfilling all of her financial obligations and still wants to spend money on spiritual retreats, then that is her business, regardless of what you think about her beliefs. If she is not hitting the mark, then that's where the discussion should begin as to how both of you can be more financially responsible.
The second issue, time together, needs to be handled by sitting down with a calendar and putting some time together in ink, not in pencil. If the two of you agree to spend X hours per week together, and she is there, for all of those hours, fully present and engaged in the relationship, then she is free to do whatever she wants with the hours that are hers alone and not yours as a couple.
Ultimately, you are going to have to decide if this is something that you can live with for the rest of your life.
If yes, then always come from a place of love, kindness and patience.
If not, then you need to part ways, I'm afraid.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 11:00 AM on June 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Does she agree with this statement?
If so, then you must approach SGI, chanting and retreats from these two foci of stress 1) Finances and 2) Time with each other.
PERIOD. Full stop.
Stop with the ribbing, stop being a Spock, and start being a compassionate boyfriend.
The first issue, finances. If she's making all her payments, and fulfilling all of her financial obligations and still wants to spend money on spiritual retreats, then that is her business, regardless of what you think about her beliefs. If she is not hitting the mark, then that's where the discussion should begin as to how both of you can be more financially responsible.
The second issue, time together, needs to be handled by sitting down with a calendar and putting some time together in ink, not in pencil. If the two of you agree to spend X hours per week together, and she is there, for all of those hours, fully present and engaged in the relationship, then she is free to do whatever she wants with the hours that are hers alone and not yours as a couple.
Ultimately, you are going to have to decide if this is something that you can live with for the rest of your life.
If yes, then always come from a place of love, kindness and patience.
If not, then you need to part ways, I'm afraid.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 11:00 AM on June 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
People are telling you to respect her spirituality - but you're saying she's joined a cult that will ultimately harm her. As the person closest to her in her life you feel you have a duty to help her extricate herself from this before it's gone too far.
As I see it, the two of you are not able to communicate - she recognizes you dismiss her beliefs and the two of you are drifting apart, her being ever more drawn to her cult instead.
To deal with the impasse I would suggest couples therapy. This would help you start talking again, and sharing your concerns while trusting that you are both being heard. There is a void in her life that the cult is filling, and she and you both need to get to the bottom of that and build from there.
posted by Dragonness at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
As I see it, the two of you are not able to communicate - she recognizes you dismiss her beliefs and the two of you are drifting apart, her being ever more drawn to her cult instead.
To deal with the impasse I would suggest couples therapy. This would help you start talking again, and sharing your concerns while trusting that you are both being heard. There is a void in her life that the cult is filling, and she and you both need to get to the bottom of that and build from there.
posted by Dragonness at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
My ex is sort of like you and I believe in things like astrology -- and I lament that most of it is done so very badly. There is a lot of math to astrology and we know, for example, that the moon causes the ocean tides and humans are mostly made of water. So I don't think it is daft to believe in it, even though I cringe at how badly popular astrology is handled. But, then, 90% of everything is crap. (shrug)
My sons are also inclined to be like their father and they do not believe in astrology and so forth. However, they don't mock me and disrespect me and view me as daft for seeing the world differently than they do. Because they see things differently from me and also respect me, it is has been enormously valuable to me to discuss things with them and get some grounded feedback that does not suffer from confirmation bias (a thing I loathe with a passion). I was not able to do anything similar with their father because he fundamentally did not respect me.
You can't have the productive dialogue you claim to want when you view her as merely brainwashed (and daft to begin with, even before she got involved with this group). If you want to save the relationship, you need to figure out how to genuinely respect her. If you can't do that, I suggest you simply walk away. A relationship not based on real respect is not going to be a healthy, happy relationship.
As others have noted, in order to have any hope of having a productive dialogue, you must stop, 100%, doing things like mocking her beliefs. You need to stop that and give it at least a few weeks of being more respectful of her before you can possibly broach this topic in a constructive fashion. During that time, try to work out a list of concerns that are framed a lot more neutrally than what you have written here. For example, your concern that chanting is becoming a time-suck and her time would be better spent actually working on the things she needs to accomplish. You can bring up a topic like that and also try to respectfully ascertain what she gets out of chanting that she feels it is worth her time. I do, for example, a lot of blogging/journaling. I function better if I take some time to deal with my emotional crap and wrap my head around what is going on in my life. It saves me time to do that and frees me up to focus more on other things. Perhaps chanting serves a similar purpose for her? You can't have a productive dialogue if you don't try to ascertain what the appeal is and simply start from a dismissive position.
It does sound like a sketchy organization. But you aren't giving her anywhere to go to get real respect for her belief that there is more to life than what science can measure. Lots of scientists have also been very religious. For example, Mendel, the man who is credited with inventing genetics, was a monk. So I strongly suggest you start by finding a way to really respect her. Because your contempt for her looks to me like a munch bigger issue than her woo hobby du jour.
posted by Michele in California at 11:05 AM on June 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
My sons are also inclined to be like their father and they do not believe in astrology and so forth. However, they don't mock me and disrespect me and view me as daft for seeing the world differently than they do. Because they see things differently from me and also respect me, it is has been enormously valuable to me to discuss things with them and get some grounded feedback that does not suffer from confirmation bias (a thing I loathe with a passion). I was not able to do anything similar with their father because he fundamentally did not respect me.
You can't have the productive dialogue you claim to want when you view her as merely brainwashed (and daft to begin with, even before she got involved with this group). If you want to save the relationship, you need to figure out how to genuinely respect her. If you can't do that, I suggest you simply walk away. A relationship not based on real respect is not going to be a healthy, happy relationship.
As others have noted, in order to have any hope of having a productive dialogue, you must stop, 100%, doing things like mocking her beliefs. You need to stop that and give it at least a few weeks of being more respectful of her before you can possibly broach this topic in a constructive fashion. During that time, try to work out a list of concerns that are framed a lot more neutrally than what you have written here. For example, your concern that chanting is becoming a time-suck and her time would be better spent actually working on the things she needs to accomplish. You can bring up a topic like that and also try to respectfully ascertain what she gets out of chanting that she feels it is worth her time. I do, for example, a lot of blogging/journaling. I function better if I take some time to deal with my emotional crap and wrap my head around what is going on in my life. It saves me time to do that and frees me up to focus more on other things. Perhaps chanting serves a similar purpose for her? You can't have a productive dialogue if you don't try to ascertain what the appeal is and simply start from a dismissive position.
It does sound like a sketchy organization. But you aren't giving her anywhere to go to get real respect for her belief that there is more to life than what science can measure. Lots of scientists have also been very religious. For example, Mendel, the man who is credited with inventing genetics, was a monk. So I strongly suggest you start by finding a way to really respect her. Because your contempt for her looks to me like a munch bigger issue than her woo hobby du jour.
posted by Michele in California at 11:05 AM on June 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
As an American, my only exposure to SGI is through the Gandhi, King, Ikeda Peace award given at Morehouse College every year. I went to the award ceremony last year when Karen Armstrong got it, and the Buddhism of SGI seemed pretty comparable in religiousity to all the other religions present (several contrasting flavors of Christianity and Islam, Hinduism, and some other (Tibetan?) Buddhists). The whole thing is probably way to woo for you, but nothing about them screams cult to me.
The amount of money your girlfriend is spending on a weekend retreat doesn't seem extreme to me, even if she does it once a month, nor does an hour a day of meditation sound like a lot. I agree with others that the way to approach this is not from the cult perspective but from the money and time together perspective.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:10 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
The amount of money your girlfriend is spending on a weekend retreat doesn't seem extreme to me, even if she does it once a month, nor does an hour a day of meditation sound like a lot. I agree with others that the way to approach this is not from the cult perspective but from the money and time together perspective.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:10 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Also, and semi related, I have a interest that I invest a LOT of time in (more than your girlfriend invests in her interest), spend most of my discretionary money on, and it influences a pretty wide scope of my life, as well as the physical space in our small, space-limited home. This hobby has great value for me because it taps in to a creative part of my brain, but also does a huge amount for my mental state, alleviating my stress, and just giving me the happy. It is a hobby that my husband doesn't understand or "get", yet he never ribs me for it, never derides me or makes fun of me. He does what he can to engage (albeit superficially), asks me about whatever project I'm working on, comments on different aspects, even occasionally buys me surprise supplies for my hobby. And in times where I am particularly stressed out or just emotionally unwell he actually goes out of his way to make sure I have the time I need to engage in this hobby to help me to feel better. Seriously. The simple fact that he TRIES make me 100% willing to back off from my hobby when he asks for more him and me time where I'm not distracted by my hobby or if he asks me to limit the amount of space in our home that the hobby consumes. I guarantee that if he approached my hobby with derision I would be a hell of a lot more resistant, and if he was patronizing about it I'd be even MORE resistant to backing off, even temporarily. Instead, my husband is sort of meeting me half way, and that makes all the difference.
He is doing what he can to accommodate me, so I am happy to do what I can to accommodate him.
Ponder that over a bit, eh?
(My hobby is knitting.)
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 11:11 AM on June 2, 2015 [21 favorites]
He is doing what he can to accommodate me, so I am happy to do what I can to accommodate him.
Ponder that over a bit, eh?
(My hobby is knitting.)
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 11:11 AM on June 2, 2015 [21 favorites]
I have no idea if SGI is a cult, but my jaw dropped when I read that you describe your girlfriend as "daft." Perhaps you meant it lovingly, but even so, it indicates contempt for her. Have you heard of John Gottman's Four Horsemen of Relationship Apocalypse?
Personally, if I found out my partner felt this way about me I would be deeply, deeply hurt, regardless of what it was about. I would treat her involvement in SGI as a religious conversion (which it essentially is) and re-evaluate from there. Can you be with someone with deeply held religious beliefs? Perhaps you are incompatible in this regard. Is this a deal breaker for you? If it's not a dealbreaker, can you still treat your girlfriend with love, compassion and respect, all aspects of her personality and beliefs?
I went looking for a reputable source for identifying cults, and everything I found seems sketchy, just like cults themselves. However, this list of characteristics of a cult seems reasonable: http://www.icsahome.com/articles/characteristics. That might help you. A friend of mine years ago was a Buddhist who chanted--she said she liked it better than kinds with silent meditation because it gave her something to do and focus on; she was really fidgety otherwise. Just another two cents.
posted by purple_bird at 11:13 AM on June 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
Personally, if I found out my partner felt this way about me I would be deeply, deeply hurt, regardless of what it was about. I would treat her involvement in SGI as a religious conversion (which it essentially is) and re-evaluate from there. Can you be with someone with deeply held religious beliefs? Perhaps you are incompatible in this regard. Is this a deal breaker for you? If it's not a dealbreaker, can you still treat your girlfriend with love, compassion and respect, all aspects of her personality and beliefs?
I went looking for a reputable source for identifying cults, and everything I found seems sketchy, just like cults themselves. However, this list of characteristics of a cult seems reasonable: http://www.icsahome.com/articles/characteristics. That might help you. A friend of mine years ago was a Buddhist who chanted--she said she liked it better than kinds with silent meditation because it gave her something to do and focus on; she was really fidgety otherwise. Just another two cents.
posted by purple_bird at 11:13 AM on June 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
Even beyond the cultish stuff, they're an extremely sketchy organization to get mixed up in - their political party is known mostly for lining up the religious right in Japan next to the LDP
Komeito is a little more complicated than that. Believe it or not the act as the "conscience" of the Abe government... but have giving into the temptation as junior coalition player of eating at the adult table of government. It's pretty sad actually.
Anyway, Sokka Gakkai is a cult in the same way that the Jehovah's Witness movement is a cult. It's a social movement with very strong prescriptions on personal behavior.
While I have been quite careful to have nothing to do with Sokka Gakkai, I know people who have "escaped", at this point and time I don't see what the big deal about chanting is, really. If you don't like it, and she isn't in any immediate danger of losing her liberty or life savings, why not let her be?
You can still be there to support her, but you aren't going to change her... or control her.
posted by Nevin at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Komeito is a little more complicated than that. Believe it or not the act as the "conscience" of the Abe government... but have giving into the temptation as junior coalition player of eating at the adult table of government. It's pretty sad actually.
Anyway, Sokka Gakkai is a cult in the same way that the Jehovah's Witness movement is a cult. It's a social movement with very strong prescriptions on personal behavior.
While I have been quite careful to have nothing to do with Sokka Gakkai, I know people who have "escaped", at this point and time I don't see what the big deal about chanting is, really. If you don't like it, and she isn't in any immediate danger of losing her liberty or life savings, why not let her be?
You can still be there to support her, but you aren't going to change her... or control her.
posted by Nevin at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm currently reading Robert Charles Wilson's near future sci fi novel, The Affinities. I'm only on chapter seven as yet, but the book does a pretty good job showing what emotional benefit people might find in a group of like-minded people. This is something non-religious people like me don't get much of. It's something you can read next time she's busy and might give you a peek into what she's getting out of the group events.
You could also look at what scientific data exists about the results of a sustained meditation practice. I don't believe she can bend reality, but I believe she can be happier and more serene from some forms of meditation.
I think if you're very Spock and she's very woo, then it can be quite hard to talk about each other's thoughts with any deep understanding. But it may be worth trying.
posted by puddledork at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
You could also look at what scientific data exists about the results of a sustained meditation practice. I don't believe she can bend reality, but I believe she can be happier and more serene from some forms of meditation.
I think if you're very Spock and she's very woo, then it can be quite hard to talk about each other's thoughts with any deep understanding. But it may be worth trying.
posted by puddledork at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think that I could date someone who was as into religion or woo as it seems like your girlfriend is, and that is perfectly okay. But that doesn't mean there is anything objectively wrong with her, or that this group is a "cult" that she needs to be saved from or reprogrammed. The amount of time that she spends a day chanting and the amount of time and money she spends on retreats are well within the bounds of reason. Plenty of people go to church every single week and pray every single day, and plenty of people spend $85 a month on massages or whatever to make themselves relax and help clear their mind. Her habits aren't as socially sanctioned as those examples, but they are effectively not really any different. If you find it all too ridiculous to deal with and can't respect someone who believes it, then that is one thing, but I think it's a mistake to view this as something to "fix" about her. My suggestion is to determine whether this is something that you can live with or if it's a deal breaker. If it is something that you can live with, then you need to do just that and leave her be.
posted by gatorae at 11:29 AM on June 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 11:29 AM on June 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
She's daft. But I love her.
Yikes, dude! This is so condescending. If I'd been dating a guy for five years and he said this about me, even if he was kind of joking, it would be cause for an immediate come-to-Jesus-type chat -- it reveals a kind of flippant contempt and disrespect that certainly wouldn't bode well for his handling of genuine, non-woo-related difficulties down the line.
A whole lot of dudes love to paint themselves as these hyper-rational intellectual know-it-alls whose majestic, Spock-like brains reign supreme over all other (usually female) people's supposed flights of fancy. So with apologies to you and the rest of them, your insistence upon maintaining blind faith (!) in the supremacy of your own beliefs is itself a prime example of the kind of irrationality from which you claim to be inherently immune. It's certainly more worthy of "gentle ribbing" than being interested in astrology.
Instead of gently prodding to see what kind of value she's drawn from her "magical" life choices and experiences, you talk about her like she's just kind of this impossibly wacky space cadet whose personal, social, and professional successes belie a rather contemptible tendency toward "fuzzy thinking" and sad (maybe even dangerous!) zealotry. But "normal" people get involved in stuff like Wicca and SGI all the time. Not everyone who devotes huge chunks of time and money to meditation or chanting or whatever is on the verge of being a potential cult inductee, and just because you find astrology and the like utterly worthless doesn't mean other people are stupid or irrational for finding value in it where it intersects with their own lives. It's clear that you think you know better than she does about her own life and motivations, but no matter how strongly you feel about it, no matter how deeply you're convinced of your own moral and intellectual rectitude, you don't get to make decisions about what she does with her own life. There is no deprogramming to be done unless or until she's actually endangered.
So if you're genuinely interested in supporting your girlfriend and continuing your relationship, you'd do well to put the kibosh on the whole "woe, I'm just too rational/real for y'all" thing and make a conscious, repeated choice to be compassionate instead. What is she getting out of this experience that she isn't getting elsewhere? What specific aspects of these choices make her feel valuable, supported, and encouraged? You don't have to agree with her actions or motivations to be loving, and spending $130 on a weekend meditation/work retreat is hardly cause for an emergency intervention unless she's been choosing that expenditure in favor of bare human necessities. If it's purely the financial aspect that's bothering you, if what she buys with her own money bothers you that much, especially if you think you want to marry her, counseling is definitely in order.
As much as I'm sure you'll never admit it, your reaction is actually very dramatic -- "deprogram," for real?! Scientology it ain't -- in light of the reality on the ground as you yourself have described it. I think you should pull back a bit and get a much wider and more varied perspective before you start trying to wrest her into your frame of what an ideal partner should be... or accidentally refer to the woman you love as "daft" to her face, rather than just to a bunch of strangers on the internet.
posted by divined by radio at 11:32 AM on June 2, 2015 [35 favorites]
Yikes, dude! This is so condescending. If I'd been dating a guy for five years and he said this about me, even if he was kind of joking, it would be cause for an immediate come-to-Jesus-type chat -- it reveals a kind of flippant contempt and disrespect that certainly wouldn't bode well for his handling of genuine, non-woo-related difficulties down the line.
A whole lot of dudes love to paint themselves as these hyper-rational intellectual know-it-alls whose majestic, Spock-like brains reign supreme over all other (usually female) people's supposed flights of fancy. So with apologies to you and the rest of them, your insistence upon maintaining blind faith (!) in the supremacy of your own beliefs is itself a prime example of the kind of irrationality from which you claim to be inherently immune. It's certainly more worthy of "gentle ribbing" than being interested in astrology.
Instead of gently prodding to see what kind of value she's drawn from her "magical" life choices and experiences, you talk about her like she's just kind of this impossibly wacky space cadet whose personal, social, and professional successes belie a rather contemptible tendency toward "fuzzy thinking" and sad (maybe even dangerous!) zealotry. But "normal" people get involved in stuff like Wicca and SGI all the time. Not everyone who devotes huge chunks of time and money to meditation or chanting or whatever is on the verge of being a potential cult inductee, and just because you find astrology and the like utterly worthless doesn't mean other people are stupid or irrational for finding value in it where it intersects with their own lives. It's clear that you think you know better than she does about her own life and motivations, but no matter how strongly you feel about it, no matter how deeply you're convinced of your own moral and intellectual rectitude, you don't get to make decisions about what she does with her own life. There is no deprogramming to be done unless or until she's actually endangered.
So if you're genuinely interested in supporting your girlfriend and continuing your relationship, you'd do well to put the kibosh on the whole "woe, I'm just too rational/real for y'all" thing and make a conscious, repeated choice to be compassionate instead. What is she getting out of this experience that she isn't getting elsewhere? What specific aspects of these choices make her feel valuable, supported, and encouraged? You don't have to agree with her actions or motivations to be loving, and spending $130 on a weekend meditation/work retreat is hardly cause for an emergency intervention unless she's been choosing that expenditure in favor of bare human necessities. If it's purely the financial aspect that's bothering you, if what she buys with her own money bothers you that much, especially if you think you want to marry her, counseling is definitely in order.
As much as I'm sure you'll never admit it, your reaction is actually very dramatic -- "deprogram," for real?! Scientology it ain't -- in light of the reality on the ground as you yourself have described it. I think you should pull back a bit and get a much wider and more varied perspective before you start trying to wrest her into your frame of what an ideal partner should be... or accidentally refer to the woman you love as "daft" to her face, rather than just to a bunch of strangers on the internet.
posted by divined by radio at 11:32 AM on June 2, 2015 [35 favorites]
A tl;dr for you, OP:
It is highly irrational of you to think that all it will take is a 'productive dialogue' to fundamentally change who your partner is.
So many "highly rational types" hit a brick wall when it comes to applying their amazing powers of rationality to actually understanding how other peoples' minds work. The rational thing to do is to figure out what she is getting from this, not just guess.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
It is highly irrational of you to think that all it will take is a 'productive dialogue' to fundamentally change who your partner is.
So many "highly rational types" hit a brick wall when it comes to applying their amazing powers of rationality to actually understanding how other peoples' minds work. The rational thing to do is to figure out what she is getting from this, not just guess.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
Erstwhile cult expert here: A friend who spent five years of his life in Soka Gakkai tells me that the group's L.A. disciples harassed him harshly after he left.
Maybe you could get her in touch with the ex-SGI members scene. Here's a Reddit forum for recovering SGI followers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SGIcultRecoveryRoom/
posted by johngoren at 11:37 AM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
Maybe you could get her in touch with the ex-SGI members scene. Here's a Reddit forum for recovering SGI followers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SGIcultRecoveryRoom/
posted by johngoren at 11:37 AM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
It sounds like she has some low self-esteem, and this cult (or cultoid) makes her feel more important by having her work for them for free and donate money, as cults do. There are any number of possible reasons for this, including that you do not take her seriously. (e.g. "She's just a daft girl.")
Maybe you can redirect her attention to something that is not inside of a demanding (and costly) organizational hierarchy. Perhaps you should do volunteer work (for charity, rather than for a religious corporation) together with her, so you guys can build some respect and understanding for each others' ways of operation. If you truly care about her and want to have a future with her, I think you need to:
1) Build genuine respect for her as a person that is your equal.
2) Try to get her source validation to not be a multi-billion dollar pay-to-pray corporation.
posted by ignignokt at 11:39 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe you can redirect her attention to something that is not inside of a demanding (and costly) organizational hierarchy. Perhaps you should do volunteer work (for charity, rather than for a religious corporation) together with her, so you guys can build some respect and understanding for each others' ways of operation. If you truly care about her and want to have a future with her, I think you need to:
1) Build genuine respect for her as a person that is your equal.
2) Try to get her source validation to not be a multi-billion dollar pay-to-pray corporation.
posted by ignignokt at 11:39 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think you're focusing too much on the 'woo' aspect of the issue. If you take the woo out, this is not a problem. Figure out whether you can deal or not.
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You're definitely getting a lot of flack here, but I completely understand where you're coming from.... You love this woman, you've been together 5 years and have had an amazing relationship in the past.
In the last 2 years she has become heavily involved in something that troubles you, it's eating up a lot of her time, you don't particularly understand it's appeal, and now it's costing her a lot of money.
You're wondering how you can stop this. Honestly, I'm not sure you can. When couples have been together a long time, they either grow together or grow apart. You guys are growing apart and it's scaring you. I know you're getting lambasted for using terms like "she's daft, but I love her"... I'm English, so I completely understand this terminology and disagree with others above who say you're treating your girlfriend with contempt.... trust me, that kind of language is very common in England and is meant completely lovingly I think.
I have such a similar experience to you. I was with my first boyfriend for almost 5 years. He became obsessed with Extreme Sports... you name it, he did it. There was no time in his life for me by the end of it, and as much as it hurt me to admit it, I knew we had just become fundamentally incompatible.... didn't mean I didn't love the guy, I just knew we couldn't be together any more because his wants and needs did not jive with mine.
Fast forward 10 years and I'm still in touch with my ex and he's STILL into those extreme sports, even more so than he was 10 years ago. He fell off a cliff and compressed his spine and messed up his ankle, he had to wear a back brace for a year, but even an injury of those kinds of proportions didn't stop him from doing the "Extreme" things he loved so much.
My point is simply this - when someone is really into something like your girlfriend is with the chanting etc. there's not an awful lot you can do to stop it. I mean, of course you can have conversations about it, but sometimes, incompatibility is incompatibility and it may sadden you to have to end the relationship, but you'll probably be happier in the long run when you might someone who is more on the same wavelength as yourself.
I'm sorry - good luck, whatever it is you decide to do.
posted by JenThePro at 11:43 AM on June 2, 2015 [26 favorites]
In the last 2 years she has become heavily involved in something that troubles you, it's eating up a lot of her time, you don't particularly understand it's appeal, and now it's costing her a lot of money.
You're wondering how you can stop this. Honestly, I'm not sure you can. When couples have been together a long time, they either grow together or grow apart. You guys are growing apart and it's scaring you. I know you're getting lambasted for using terms like "she's daft, but I love her"... I'm English, so I completely understand this terminology and disagree with others above who say you're treating your girlfriend with contempt.... trust me, that kind of language is very common in England and is meant completely lovingly I think.
I have such a similar experience to you. I was with my first boyfriend for almost 5 years. He became obsessed with Extreme Sports... you name it, he did it. There was no time in his life for me by the end of it, and as much as it hurt me to admit it, I knew we had just become fundamentally incompatible.... didn't mean I didn't love the guy, I just knew we couldn't be together any more because his wants and needs did not jive with mine.
Fast forward 10 years and I'm still in touch with my ex and he's STILL into those extreme sports, even more so than he was 10 years ago. He fell off a cliff and compressed his spine and messed up his ankle, he had to wear a back brace for a year, but even an injury of those kinds of proportions didn't stop him from doing the "Extreme" things he loved so much.
My point is simply this - when someone is really into something like your girlfriend is with the chanting etc. there's not an awful lot you can do to stop it. I mean, of course you can have conversations about it, but sometimes, incompatibility is incompatibility and it may sadden you to have to end the relationship, but you'll probably be happier in the long run when you might someone who is more on the same wavelength as yourself.
I'm sorry - good luck, whatever it is you decide to do.
posted by JenThePro at 11:43 AM on June 2, 2015 [26 favorites]
My understanding is that there is evidence-based research supporting the use of mindfulness practices. My experience with people who've done chanting has been that it helps them keep their lives focused and productive. There may be some superstition involved, but if the end result is that she's happy and productive, where's the harm?
I also don't think that £85 for a weekend gathering qualifies as exploitation, let alone cult-level exploitation. There are lots of events that cost a lot more than that, even with volunteer support. Heck, a concert ticket can cost more than that these days.
I'd suggest you not try to change this aspect of her, but see if you can live with an accept the complete package that she is.
posted by alms at 11:44 AM on June 2, 2015
I also don't think that £85 for a weekend gathering qualifies as exploitation, let alone cult-level exploitation. There are lots of events that cost a lot more than that, even with volunteer support. Heck, a concert ticket can cost more than that these days.
I'd suggest you not try to change this aspect of her, but see if you can live with an accept the complete package that she is.
posted by alms at 11:44 AM on June 2, 2015
She believes, as per the instruction of the SGI, that this chanting is literally able to bend reality to her will, and as such she now views everything in her life through a lens of confirmation bias, cherry picking the good things as direct results of chanting, and seeing all the bad as the consequences of not chanting enough.
1. Confirmation bias is ubiquitous, but we can’t see it in ourselves. This is a well-established phenomenon called the “bias blind spot.” So you, too, are biased!
... we're both self-employed with various semi-jobs, all of which comes with some anxiety... The majority of stresses in our relationship come from financial quibbles, with the rest coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
I've also quietly objected to the time that she commits to the chanting: she would potentially have no cause for most of her anxieties if she just turned that time towards anything productive, rather than trying to palliate the anxieties that come from not being productive enough.
2. This is hypocritical: on one hand, you admit to having anxieties. On the other, you suggest that she wouldn’t if she used the time that she spends chanting towards “productive” pursuits. Since you aren’t spending any of your time chanting, by logic, you should not be anxious! And yet you are.
stresses in our relationship... coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
I'm happy for people to believe whatever they like if it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
So - in the end it seems like you’re really peeved that she seems to be prioritizing chanting over you. The chanting *is* making her happy! Just not in any way that you deem acceptable. It sounds like you’re scared that you’ve grown apart and you want your old girlfriend back. Repeat after me: you are not right, she is not wrong. But this may be a sign that you have grown apart.
posted by blazingunicorn at 11:49 AM on June 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
1. Confirmation bias is ubiquitous, but we can’t see it in ourselves. This is a well-established phenomenon called the “bias blind spot.” So you, too, are biased!
... we're both self-employed with various semi-jobs, all of which comes with some anxiety... The majority of stresses in our relationship come from financial quibbles, with the rest coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
I've also quietly objected to the time that she commits to the chanting: she would potentially have no cause for most of her anxieties if she just turned that time towards anything productive, rather than trying to palliate the anxieties that come from not being productive enough.
2. This is hypocritical: on one hand, you admit to having anxieties. On the other, you suggest that she wouldn’t if she used the time that she spends chanting towards “productive” pursuits. Since you aren’t spending any of your time chanting, by logic, you should not be anxious! And yet you are.
stresses in our relationship... coming from not prioritising enough time for each other amidst our very busy and changeable schedules.
I'm happy for people to believe whatever they like if it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
So - in the end it seems like you’re really peeved that she seems to be prioritizing chanting over you. The chanting *is* making her happy! Just not in any way that you deem acceptable. It sounds like you’re scared that you’ve grown apart and you want your old girlfriend back. Repeat after me: you are not right, she is not wrong. But this may be a sign that you have grown apart.
posted by blazingunicorn at 11:49 AM on June 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Wow some of the responses are harsh.
Years ago, my best friend went through some "phases"- she was trying to find where she belonged in the world. She became involved in Scientology.
Like you, I am also very left-brained-extremely black & white. And I was worried about her. (I have nothing against Scientology). I was more concerned about some of the people that she was spending time with there. She's a tough chic, but I didn't want her to get taken advantage of when she was most vulnerable.
I did express my concerns to her. Rather than using my standard approach: "Here's what's right and wrong" with my facts in bullet-point form, I was more sensitive.
But the truth is, our conversation didn't change her path. But- it did make her more aware of possible hazardous. And she knew that I cared enough to express my concerns without making her feel judged. So, she felt comfortable enough to share her journey with me. In turn, I felt better bc I knew what was happening!! (Her family was a little more forceful- and she stopped talking about Scientology with them).
I even read a Scientology book that she bought me, so I could better understand her interest.
Fortunately, she found that it wasn't her cup of tea on her own-within a few months.
But it sounds like your GF has looked for somewhere to "fit" since before you met her.
I would definitely have a very honest conversation with her- your fears about the organization, along with your time and financial concerns. And because I'm a 'facts' person, it might help to accurately keep track of how she is spending her time- for a few weeks BEFORE you have this conversation. Then show her, on paper, how much time she is spending with SGI, chanting, etc each week/month. And in relation, also show her how much time she is (not) spending on her career- and most importantly- how little time she is spending with you!
But maybe you could also look for something more healthy that might help her feel connected? Something that you also would enjoy- and could share with her? A more traditional church? An outdoor club- like people who commune with nature? Whatever works for you, that you think she would be open to exploring.
Maybe when you express your concerns about all of the time she spends with SGI/on rituals regarding SG, you can ask her to spend SOME of that time with you instead, communing with nature (or whatever it was that you chose). And maybe, without trying to get her to completely stop right away, you can SHOW her a better healthier way.
posted by Cammy at 11:59 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Years ago, my best friend went through some "phases"- she was trying to find where she belonged in the world. She became involved in Scientology.
Like you, I am also very left-brained-extremely black & white. And I was worried about her. (I have nothing against Scientology). I was more concerned about some of the people that she was spending time with there. She's a tough chic, but I didn't want her to get taken advantage of when she was most vulnerable.
I did express my concerns to her. Rather than using my standard approach: "Here's what's right and wrong" with my facts in bullet-point form, I was more sensitive.
But the truth is, our conversation didn't change her path. But- it did make her more aware of possible hazardous. And she knew that I cared enough to express my concerns without making her feel judged. So, she felt comfortable enough to share her journey with me. In turn, I felt better bc I knew what was happening!! (Her family was a little more forceful- and she stopped talking about Scientology with them).
I even read a Scientology book that she bought me, so I could better understand her interest.
Fortunately, she found that it wasn't her cup of tea on her own-within a few months.
But it sounds like your GF has looked for somewhere to "fit" since before you met her.
I would definitely have a very honest conversation with her- your fears about the organization, along with your time and financial concerns. And because I'm a 'facts' person, it might help to accurately keep track of how she is spending her time- for a few weeks BEFORE you have this conversation. Then show her, on paper, how much time she is spending with SGI, chanting, etc each week/month. And in relation, also show her how much time she is (not) spending on her career- and most importantly- how little time she is spending with you!
But maybe you could also look for something more healthy that might help her feel connected? Something that you also would enjoy- and could share with her? A more traditional church? An outdoor club- like people who commune with nature? Whatever works for you, that you think she would be open to exploring.
Maybe when you express your concerns about all of the time she spends with SGI/on rituals regarding SG, you can ask her to spend SOME of that time with you instead, communing with nature (or whatever it was that you chose). And maybe, without trying to get her to completely stop right away, you can SHOW her a better healthier way.
posted by Cammy at 11:59 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm depressed that so many people are responding you to shame you for feeling like your SO is going down a path of delusional thinking. I'm right there with you, and it's not a bad urge to try to figure out ways to keep this sort of thing from taking over.
In my time in LA (good riddance), we watched four of our friends lose their agency, voluntarily, to scientology and other pseudo-spiritual businesses. after those four, we made a point to take a fifth friend to a James Randi event... and the veil was lifted for him. It was so, so helpful for all parties involved, I strongly suggest you look through the Randi Educational Foundation videos and resources--if you can sit down with your SO and maybe view/talk about some of these things, you might be able to discuss and assess your situation openly with one another, hopefully on firmer ground.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 12:02 PM on June 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
In my time in LA (good riddance), we watched four of our friends lose their agency, voluntarily, to scientology and other pseudo-spiritual businesses. after those four, we made a point to take a fifth friend to a James Randi event... and the veil was lifted for him. It was so, so helpful for all parties involved, I strongly suggest you look through the Randi Educational Foundation videos and resources--if you can sit down with your SO and maybe view/talk about some of these things, you might be able to discuss and assess your situation openly with one another, hopefully on firmer ground.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 12:02 PM on June 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
i think first you need to stop seeing yourself as some logic-bot above it all and her as some daft girl who doesn't understand the world.
I disagree with this. She is indeed being a daft girl who doesn't understand the world. There is nothing wrong with spirituality, but this sounds like getting into cult/corporate-bullshit-taking-advantage-of-people territory. And it sounds like that is not compatible with your worldview. If it were me, I would approach it with her as someone suggested above that if the chanting was going to work, it would work regardless of if she attended expensive events or not. Maybe you could try redirecting her to healthier outlets for this spiritual impulse, like a Unitarian church or even a regular yoga practice (many yoga teachers are heavy on the spiritual side).
If you want to attempt to change her mind about this stuff, which honestly probably won't work, you could try reading or suggest she read "A Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan which was written exactly for people in her type of situation.
posted by Librarypt at 12:06 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I disagree with this. She is indeed being a daft girl who doesn't understand the world. There is nothing wrong with spirituality, but this sounds like getting into cult/corporate-bullshit-taking-advantage-of-people territory. And it sounds like that is not compatible with your worldview. If it were me, I would approach it with her as someone suggested above that if the chanting was going to work, it would work regardless of if she attended expensive events or not. Maybe you could try redirecting her to healthier outlets for this spiritual impulse, like a Unitarian church or even a regular yoga practice (many yoga teachers are heavy on the spiritual side).
If you want to attempt to change her mind about this stuff, which honestly probably won't work, you could try reading or suggest she read "A Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan which was written exactly for people in her type of situation.
posted by Librarypt at 12:06 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
something I've always gently ribbed her for.
With all due respect, I'll bet this is not how she would describe it.
posted by maryr at 12:06 PM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
With all due respect, I'll bet this is not how she would describe it.
posted by maryr at 12:06 PM on June 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
So many well-meaning answers here. But when you factor in a Scientology-like group and its aggressively manipulative tactics, we're not talking about some campus debate over rationality vs. spirituality like in Contact or something. (That's how these sects would prefer that you frame the issue, though.)
Would likewise ignore the pile-on of "look in the mirror, this is all about you and your mainsplaning, man!" answers -- I guess it wouldn't be Ask Metafilter without the unhelpful condescension towards people in trouble -- and read up on standard operating procedure for when loved ones fall in with groups like this. Your reaction is understandable. SGI is no joke; this isn't like signing up for a mindful meditation class in Pacifica.
Also, rich cults have made it harder to find info online by doing stuff like buying and then shuttering the Cult Awareness Network (as the Church of Scientology did.) As for "deprogramming," it's no longer used as a term because of the original controversies from the 1970s onward over the civil liberties/First Amendment implications of kidnapping members of alternative religious groups and locking them in rooms. Though there are those who still call themselves "exit counselors." Kind of a sketchy scene, though.
But there are a bunch of forums out there for survivors of groups like this. Check out:
http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?5,87661
About the "daft" issue: one thing I found when talking to former members of the Unification Church was that some of the brightest, most idealistic people were drawn into these things.
posted by johngoren at 12:09 PM on June 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
Would likewise ignore the pile-on of "look in the mirror, this is all about you and your mainsplaning, man!" answers -- I guess it wouldn't be Ask Metafilter without the unhelpful condescension towards people in trouble -- and read up on standard operating procedure for when loved ones fall in with groups like this. Your reaction is understandable. SGI is no joke; this isn't like signing up for a mindful meditation class in Pacifica.
Also, rich cults have made it harder to find info online by doing stuff like buying and then shuttering the Cult Awareness Network (as the Church of Scientology did.) As for "deprogramming," it's no longer used as a term because of the original controversies from the 1970s onward over the civil liberties/First Amendment implications of kidnapping members of alternative religious groups and locking them in rooms. Though there are those who still call themselves "exit counselors." Kind of a sketchy scene, though.
But there are a bunch of forums out there for survivors of groups like this. Check out:
http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?5,87661
About the "daft" issue: one thing I found when talking to former members of the Unification Church was that some of the brightest, most idealistic people were drawn into these things.
posted by johngoren at 12:09 PM on June 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
This subreddit might be more active.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sgiwhistleblowers/
posted by johngoren at 12:29 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
https://www.reddit.com/r/sgiwhistleblowers/
posted by johngoren at 12:29 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Help build connections to other people; this will decrease stress and give meaning to her life (and yours) outside this organization, and is a positive thing to do rather than just stopping the main thing that is currently giving her solace.
Start having dinner with friends regularly, or plan weekend activities, or have regular visits or phone calls with nice relatives if you have them. If you don't have friends, find something inexpensive you can do regularly, as a couple, which will give you the opportunity to meet them.
posted by amtho at 12:33 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Start having dinner with friends regularly, or plan weekend activities, or have regular visits or phone calls with nice relatives if you have them. If you don't have friends, find something inexpensive you can do regularly, as a couple, which will give you the opportunity to meet them.
posted by amtho at 12:33 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
OP, you're right.
The problem, though, is that you are confusing an interest in spirituality or consciousness exploration with a pay-for-pray multi-billion dollar corporation (pyramid scheme or MLM) that also is involved in influencing geo-politics. I know nothing about this group, but they sound to my ear like a front group for some aspect of the borderless military industrial complex that profits from international conflict.
so...WHOA.
I think first you need to stop with the rhetoric about other people's spiritual interests, calling it "woo" or "magical thinking" or whatever. This does not make you a "spock" - it makes you a disrespectful asshole.
If you can get past your own bs and find respect again for this fellow human being, your girlfriend, then seek help from the multiple resources that are available to help folks like you seeking to save loved ones from cults.
Your poor girlfriend. It sucks when we find out things are not as advertised to us, but really, I'm surprised people fall for it. Very nice people fall for it!
I live down the block from Scientology Headquarters. The interesting thing I try to remember as I see their adherents being bussed about in their uniforms to work all day, only to put $$ into someone else's pocket, is that the actual tenents of Scientology are basically about self-work and self-empowerment. It's only when money and power and some sort of formalizing organization gets involved that it all becomes worrying. Those people, like your girlfriend, really do want the best for themselves and others and they absolutely mean well.
I don't know why certain people are susceptible to these types of things. I know your girlfriend can't and won't hear you unless you acknowledge that spirituality is an important part of the human experience and deserves time, effort, pursuit and nurturing.
This group support war and military conflict. That would turn me off. You might not be able to prove the connection there for her, however.
Seek cult intervention resources and look inside yourself to see if you can approach your girlfriend from a place of respect and compassion. If you can't, any attempts you make might accidentally convince her that only her "new" friends really understand her, etc.. You don't want to make things worse, so see if you can respect where she is coming from.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 12:36 PM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
The problem, though, is that you are confusing an interest in spirituality or consciousness exploration with a pay-for-pray multi-billion dollar corporation (pyramid scheme or MLM) that also is involved in influencing geo-politics. I know nothing about this group, but they sound to my ear like a front group for some aspect of the borderless military industrial complex that profits from international conflict.
so...WHOA.
I think first you need to stop with the rhetoric about other people's spiritual interests, calling it "woo" or "magical thinking" or whatever. This does not make you a "spock" - it makes you a disrespectful asshole.
If you can get past your own bs and find respect again for this fellow human being, your girlfriend, then seek help from the multiple resources that are available to help folks like you seeking to save loved ones from cults.
Your poor girlfriend. It sucks when we find out things are not as advertised to us, but really, I'm surprised people fall for it. Very nice people fall for it!
I live down the block from Scientology Headquarters. The interesting thing I try to remember as I see their adherents being bussed about in their uniforms to work all day, only to put $$ into someone else's pocket, is that the actual tenents of Scientology are basically about self-work and self-empowerment. It's only when money and power and some sort of formalizing organization gets involved that it all becomes worrying. Those people, like your girlfriend, really do want the best for themselves and others and they absolutely mean well.
I don't know why certain people are susceptible to these types of things. I know your girlfriend can't and won't hear you unless you acknowledge that spirituality is an important part of the human experience and deserves time, effort, pursuit and nurturing.
This group support war and military conflict. That would turn me off. You might not be able to prove the connection there for her, however.
Seek cult intervention resources and look inside yourself to see if you can approach your girlfriend from a place of respect and compassion. If you can't, any attempts you make might accidentally convince her that only her "new" friends really understand her, etc.. You don't want to make things worse, so see if you can respect where she is coming from.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 12:36 PM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: A lot of harsh comments here :(
If money were tight and my Other Half decided to spend £85 for a weekend of volunteer work at an event dedicated to chanting cancer away, I'd be absolutely outraged. If it were me, I'd sit down and make a Pro & Con list. I'd make it as clear-cut and objective as possible. An example:
PRO:
+ stress-relief
+ new social group
+ finding inner calm
+ feeling useful
CON:
+ I am struggling to pay the gas bill
+ I am neglecting my existing social circles
+ I am not meeting my work deadlines
+ I am not picking up new clients
She may prefer things a lot less black and white, but the financial implications may be the best way to frame this - I would personally be inclined to say I would not bail her out financially if she continues to spend money she doesn't actually have. Being self-employed means you guys need to be far more financially smart than people with a steady income - spending money on a spiritual retreat should probably not be top of her agenda until she becomes financially secure.
All the best to you and your girlfriend.
posted by kariebookish at 12:37 PM on June 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
If money were tight and my Other Half decided to spend £85 for a weekend of volunteer work at an event dedicated to chanting cancer away, I'd be absolutely outraged. If it were me, I'd sit down and make a Pro & Con list. I'd make it as clear-cut and objective as possible. An example:
PRO:
+ stress-relief
+ new social group
+ finding inner calm
+ feeling useful
CON:
+ I am struggling to pay the gas bill
+ I am neglecting my existing social circles
+ I am not meeting my work deadlines
+ I am not picking up new clients
She may prefer things a lot less black and white, but the financial implications may be the best way to frame this - I would personally be inclined to say I would not bail her out financially if she continues to spend money she doesn't actually have. Being self-employed means you guys need to be far more financially smart than people with a steady income - spending money on a spiritual retreat should probably not be top of her agenda until she becomes financially secure.
All the best to you and your girlfriend.
posted by kariebookish at 12:37 PM on June 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I know this is counter-intuitive, but could you encourage her to learn about mainstream Buddhism? That cult has zero actual Buddhist content and looks more and more silly the more you learn about the subject. They don't meditate or learn any of the basic mindfulness philosophy that is the point of Buddhism, and which helps people lead happier more calm lives.
[Disclaimer - I am an atheist, I am not proselytizing here. Mindfulness works for me though.]
posted by w0mbat at 12:39 PM on June 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
[Disclaimer - I am an atheist, I am not proselytizing here. Mindfulness works for me though.]
posted by w0mbat at 12:39 PM on June 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Folks, please lay off both the JudgeMe answers and the commentary on other answers/"what AskMe is like" stuff. Please keep it constructive for the OP, and don't get into repeatedly restating your point. If you don't like the OP, it's fine to just pass the thread by.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:47 PM on June 2, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:47 PM on June 2, 2015
I think this is the hill your relationship dies on. Your girlfriend is involved in something you don't like or understand, you don't respect your girlfriend enough to not view her with disdain and contempt, and you're more focused on getting control than you are getting her a replacement for the therapy she seems to be getting by being in this organization. You don't have her best interests at heart in that sense because you aren't really extending empathy to her, which is understandable but not productive or helpful in the long run. Spiritual beliefs are something partners should be united on -- it doesn't sound like you ever will be, so why not see things for what they are and move on? She's no longer right for you, and I think if she saw what you'd written about her here she'd agree that you're not really right for her anymore.
posted by Hermione Granger at 1:17 PM on June 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 1:17 PM on June 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
They don't meditate or learn any of the basic mindfulness philosophy that is the point of Buddhism, and which helps people lead happier more calm lives.
You can't say that Sokka Gakkai is not "real Buddhism." As I recall chanting the Lotus Sutra is extremely important in Soka Gakkai; Nichiren Buddhism also focuses on the Lotus Sutra. A number of mainstream Japanese Buddhist denominations, including Nichiren but also notably Jodo Shin focus more on the "mechanics" or process of Buddhist practice, which includes chanting and so on.
For the most part mainstream Buddhism in Japan is not focused on mindfulness or meditation at all. My point being that this is not enough to make Soka Gakkai an outlier (which it most certainly is, but for other reasons) in the world of Japanese Buddhism that it comes from.
Depending where you are you could check out one of the Soto Zen centers in LA or SF but I doubt it will fill the hole, so to speak, your girlfriend is confronting (or not).
posted by Nevin at 2:24 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can't say that Sokka Gakkai is not "real Buddhism." As I recall chanting the Lotus Sutra is extremely important in Soka Gakkai; Nichiren Buddhism also focuses on the Lotus Sutra. A number of mainstream Japanese Buddhist denominations, including Nichiren but also notably Jodo Shin focus more on the "mechanics" or process of Buddhist practice, which includes chanting and so on.
For the most part mainstream Buddhism in Japan is not focused on mindfulness or meditation at all. My point being that this is not enough to make Soka Gakkai an outlier (which it most certainly is, but for other reasons) in the world of Japanese Buddhism that it comes from.
Depending where you are you could check out one of the Soto Zen centers in LA or SF but I doubt it will fill the hole, so to speak, your girlfriend is confronting (or not).
posted by Nevin at 2:24 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have been in your girlfriend's position before; that is, a woman with some interest in religion dating a Mr. Logic type. My spiritual interests were a lot less intense than Sokka Gakai--think Unitarian services and Quaker meetings--but still enough to send my partner off on tirades about 'woo.'
All of his "ribbing" about my interests? Only made me double down and cling to them harder. I knew I was, on some level, a smart and reasonable person, and didn't like his insinuation that my interests made me inferior, or stupid, or just a follower. I kept going to services as a way of showing, to him and myself, that I was my own person who could make my own decisions about my belief systems.
It's been five years since the end of that relationship now, and I haven't been to any kind of church regularly in about three years. Turns out that I'm actually an agnostic who mostly enjoys services in a detached, anthropological way and doesn't feel compelled to go often. But I didn't have room to discover that about myself until I stopped feeling like I had to prove my intelligence to my partner all the time.
If you do talk to your girlfriend, please emphasize how you'd like to spend more time together, how you need to watch your budget; the practical and logistical concerns you have are valid. But if you start with the chanting as your primary concern, realize that your other legitimate concerns may not be heard once her hackles go up.
posted by ActionPopulated at 4:12 PM on June 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
All of his "ribbing" about my interests? Only made me double down and cling to them harder. I knew I was, on some level, a smart and reasonable person, and didn't like his insinuation that my interests made me inferior, or stupid, or just a follower. I kept going to services as a way of showing, to him and myself, that I was my own person who could make my own decisions about my belief systems.
It's been five years since the end of that relationship now, and I haven't been to any kind of church regularly in about three years. Turns out that I'm actually an agnostic who mostly enjoys services in a detached, anthropological way and doesn't feel compelled to go often. But I didn't have room to discover that about myself until I stopped feeling like I had to prove my intelligence to my partner all the time.
If you do talk to your girlfriend, please emphasize how you'd like to spend more time together, how you need to watch your budget; the practical and logistical concerns you have are valid. But if you start with the chanting as your primary concern, realize that your other legitimate concerns may not be heard once her hackles go up.
posted by ActionPopulated at 4:12 PM on June 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Good things happen: God rewarded you for you devotion, bad things happen: you weren't devout enough is an extremely old, entrenched and widespread meme and yeah questioning it openly will probably increase her resistance to you. Getting up and leaving the premises at any mention of this kind of idea is what I eventually learned to do.
posted by telstar at 4:38 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by telstar at 4:38 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't see how this is very different than someone getting deep into a "mainstream" religion. Plenty of them focus on prayer and its effects, give money to the church, volunteer time, etc. And my knowledge of Sokka Gakkai agrees with what Nevin is saying: they may not be "mainstream Buddhists", but comparing them to Scientology seems unreasonable. I've never heard of the kind of aggressive legal tactics / threats / etc that Scientology is pretty well documented as doing, nor the unreasonable sums of money.
I mean, look -- I'm a skeptic, and I certainly don't believe anything they or any other religion is teaching. But this is basically a worldview difference, and you don't actually seem to respect her beliefs at all. Thats OK in a sense, no one should be expected ot think everyone else is right, but its a huge red flag in a relationship.
Agreeing to disagree is one thing (Most of my relationships have been with people who had at least some degree of spiritual/religious thinking). But saying things like " I've been able to laugh it off and rib her for thinking that way" or "She's daft" do not seem to show any respect.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, look -- I'm a skeptic, and I certainly don't believe anything they or any other religion is teaching. But this is basically a worldview difference, and you don't actually seem to respect her beliefs at all. Thats OK in a sense, no one should be expected ot think everyone else is right, but its a huge red flag in a relationship.
Agreeing to disagree is one thing (Most of my relationships have been with people who had at least some degree of spiritual/religious thinking). But saying things like " I've been able to laugh it off and rib her for thinking that way" or "She's daft" do not seem to show any respect.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Wow, this thread is creeping me out. Kandarp, you're right to be concerned that your girlfriend is spending increasing time with (and spending money on) an entity that many believe is a pretty serious cult. I think folks here are misattributing a few snarky uses of British colloquialism to condescension, whereas I read it an attempt to sound a little playful and not overdramatic as you explore something that could sound very, well, dramatic.
I don't think you're being overblown. When you Google your girlfriend's spiritual group and are faced with thousands of posts on anti-cult message boards about how difficult it is to leave the group as well as critical articles in the mainstream media of the leader's finances and political power, you can rest assured that you're firmly in cult territory. Nobody's going to pop up on your doorstep 10 years from now and say of Soka Gakkai "see, it wasn't a cult, what a foolish thing to be concerned about!" and rub your nose in it. You can treat this like a cult.
Similarly, ignore the people who are confusing a cult-like sect with the major religion. This isn't mainstream Buddhism. Many cults are offshoots of or combined teachings from the major religions. The People's Temple was a Christian church. The Branch Davidians were a Christian sect. Aum Shinrikyo combined Buddhism, Hinduism and Christian teachings. It is completely valid and not at all closed-minded to express concern that a Buddhist sect might be a cult.
My recommendation is to focus on one thing and one thing alone: your concern, which appears to be valid, that your girlfriend is beginning to be exploited by this group.
When thinking about this issue and discussing this with her, I would explicitly decouple her involvement with the sect from her independent practice of religion. To separate belief and administration. To separate the faith from the institution. This will help both of you. Her holding a belief you find irrational is one thing - and two people never, ever share exactly the same set of beliefs - but involvement with a malignant organization is another.
I would tell her that you support her own practice of religion, as long, and only as long, as she is practicing that religion of her own desire, as long as it is truly, deep down inside, her belief. If she wants to chant because it is an expression of her own inner faith, that's not the issue at hand, and you're not trying to stop her.
I would then talk to her about your concern with the institution. About the way any number of organizations have looked like good, benevolent organizations, and had completely rational, sane followers, but were, behind the scenes, quite exploitative. You could use a non-religious example such as the many medical charities that turn out to be about their leaders' pocketbooks. How good people, who believe they're giving or volunteering to help fight cancer, are exploited by people who are only looking for power or money. And that when you talk about that, you don't think people should stop giving to cancer charities, but people who do need to be really careful about the ones they do.
(But for Buddha's sake, don't use the word cult! Say "good-seeming organization that turns out to be exploitative" or "an benevolent organization run by a power-hungry individual" or something that sounds more like the way you'd say that.)
Ask her to promise you that she'll look for the following warning signs in case things start to sour:
* People guilt-tripping her or other people about not being able to attend, or saying that she is (or they are) a bad person if she does.
* People recommending against speaking with individuals outside of SGI about various issues, either related to or not related to religion.
* Evidence of the sect applying emotional pressure, blackmail or threats if one does not donate or when someone talks about leaving.
Tell her that you are always there to help her if that happens, and that she is free to exercise the faith even if she breaks from the group.
I would probably wrap up by admitting that you also miss engaging in various activities with her, and if there's a selfish component, it's just that you enjoy being with her.
The talk probably won't be wholly successful, but it will hopefully plant a seed, so that when/if they starting pulling the standard exploitative tricks, it rings a bell, and she knows she can come to you as a supportive voice.
I hope this helps.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2015 [20 favorites]
I don't think you're being overblown. When you Google your girlfriend's spiritual group and are faced with thousands of posts on anti-cult message boards about how difficult it is to leave the group as well as critical articles in the mainstream media of the leader's finances and political power, you can rest assured that you're firmly in cult territory. Nobody's going to pop up on your doorstep 10 years from now and say of Soka Gakkai "see, it wasn't a cult, what a foolish thing to be concerned about!" and rub your nose in it. You can treat this like a cult.
Similarly, ignore the people who are confusing a cult-like sect with the major religion. This isn't mainstream Buddhism. Many cults are offshoots of or combined teachings from the major religions. The People's Temple was a Christian church. The Branch Davidians were a Christian sect. Aum Shinrikyo combined Buddhism, Hinduism and Christian teachings. It is completely valid and not at all closed-minded to express concern that a Buddhist sect might be a cult.
My recommendation is to focus on one thing and one thing alone: your concern, which appears to be valid, that your girlfriend is beginning to be exploited by this group.
When thinking about this issue and discussing this with her, I would explicitly decouple her involvement with the sect from her independent practice of religion. To separate belief and administration. To separate the faith from the institution. This will help both of you. Her holding a belief you find irrational is one thing - and two people never, ever share exactly the same set of beliefs - but involvement with a malignant organization is another.
I would tell her that you support her own practice of religion, as long, and only as long, as she is practicing that religion of her own desire, as long as it is truly, deep down inside, her belief. If she wants to chant because it is an expression of her own inner faith, that's not the issue at hand, and you're not trying to stop her.
I would then talk to her about your concern with the institution. About the way any number of organizations have looked like good, benevolent organizations, and had completely rational, sane followers, but were, behind the scenes, quite exploitative. You could use a non-religious example such as the many medical charities that turn out to be about their leaders' pocketbooks. How good people, who believe they're giving or volunteering to help fight cancer, are exploited by people who are only looking for power or money. And that when you talk about that, you don't think people should stop giving to cancer charities, but people who do need to be really careful about the ones they do.
(But for Buddha's sake, don't use the word cult! Say "good-seeming organization that turns out to be exploitative" or "an benevolent organization run by a power-hungry individual" or something that sounds more like the way you'd say that.)
Ask her to promise you that she'll look for the following warning signs in case things start to sour:
* People guilt-tripping her or other people about not being able to attend, or saying that she is (or they are) a bad person if she does.
* People recommending against speaking with individuals outside of SGI about various issues, either related to or not related to religion.
* Evidence of the sect applying emotional pressure, blackmail or threats if one does not donate or when someone talks about leaving.
Tell her that you are always there to help her if that happens, and that she is free to exercise the faith even if she breaks from the group.
I would probably wrap up by admitting that you also miss engaging in various activities with her, and if there's a selfish component, it's just that you enjoy being with her.
The talk probably won't be wholly successful, but it will hopefully plant a seed, so that when/if they starting pulling the standard exploitative tricks, it rings a bell, and she knows she can come to you as a supportive voice.
I hope this helps.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2015 [20 favorites]
Best answer: She's daft. But I love her.
A few people have objected to this, but it's not condescending or mean, it's very commonly used with loved ones in Britain as a gentle kind of teasing. Like how you might affectionately call someone a 'crazy kid' even though it's also common to call someone crazy in a pejorative sense.
OP, I'm sorry but I think this is something that is out of your hands. I have a couple of friends who disappeared into the woo-work. One went to Landmark and the other into a spiritual realm too transcendental for me to even explain. In the end, one came back eventually, after finding her own disillusionment with the organisation, in her own time. It was about 5 years. The other is still there, giving lots of money and time, and cutting off contact with those who aren't supportive.
Maybe all you can do is stick around for as long as you can/want to. I know you love her but people change and sometimes the person we love has morphed into something different and may or may not come back.
OMG!!!! The second one, who claims to be psychic and clairvoyant just texted me RIGHT NOW!!!
posted by stellathon at 5:21 PM on June 2, 2015 [12 favorites]
A few people have objected to this, but it's not condescending or mean, it's very commonly used with loved ones in Britain as a gentle kind of teasing. Like how you might affectionately call someone a 'crazy kid' even though it's also common to call someone crazy in a pejorative sense.
OP, I'm sorry but I think this is something that is out of your hands. I have a couple of friends who disappeared into the woo-work. One went to Landmark and the other into a spiritual realm too transcendental for me to even explain. In the end, one came back eventually, after finding her own disillusionment with the organisation, in her own time. It was about 5 years. The other is still there, giving lots of money and time, and cutting off contact with those who aren't supportive.
Maybe all you can do is stick around for as long as you can/want to. I know you love her but people change and sometimes the person we love has morphed into something different and may or may not come back.
OMG!!!! The second one, who claims to be psychic and clairvoyant just texted me RIGHT NOW!!!
posted by stellathon at 5:21 PM on June 2, 2015 [12 favorites]
I'm someone who both identifies as spiritual and analytical, but also extremely serious about identifying and avoiding coercive organizations, cults, and any form of dogma due to having to fend off both evangelical Christians and scientists in my lifetime. Your GF seems like she wants to belong to something, and is giving up her agency to an organization that promises her the world. The labor, indoctrination, and feel-goodness sounds very similar to Pavlov's delayed conditioning, and yes, seems very culty or pyramid schemey.
Buddhism is a journey for each person, and Chogyam Trungpa himself warns against spiritual materialism and narcissism and using specific practices to avoid the actual work of self-enlightenment. She is trying to find solutions that aren't there, and they are using capitalistic and exploitative practices on vulnerable people.
Finding works from Buddhist scholars that discuss and critique different sects and practices would be extremely helpful, as chanting and prostrating are not even necessary for each part. Also, SGI is a very strange organization since it is focused on fulfilling one certain person's beliefs, and the chapter organizations are really sketch. As someone who studies Buddhism and sees how it has been manipulated for power and control reasons in different societies, SGI seems like another example.
posted by yueliang at 7:43 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Buddhism is a journey for each person, and Chogyam Trungpa himself warns against spiritual materialism and narcissism and using specific practices to avoid the actual work of self-enlightenment. She is trying to find solutions that aren't there, and they are using capitalistic and exploitative practices on vulnerable people.
Finding works from Buddhist scholars that discuss and critique different sects and practices would be extremely helpful, as chanting and prostrating are not even necessary for each part. Also, SGI is a very strange organization since it is focused on fulfilling one certain person's beliefs, and the chapter organizations are really sketch. As someone who studies Buddhism and sees how it has been manipulated for power and control reasons in different societies, SGI seems like another example.
posted by yueliang at 7:43 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chiming in late, but I just wanted to add one more comment to the "there a lot of people being way too harsh here" pile.
Sadly, I'm not sure there's really all that much you can do aside from letting her know how this recent turn in her faith is affecting you and your relationship together. Trying to use your "rationality" will not work because the goal is to save the relationship not to bring her thoughts more in line with yours. You see her "woo" as a failure to (or maybe it's more accurate to say, as a choice to not) recognize certain realities of the world and I'm sure she views your "rational" perspective in a very similar way but there was a balance and respect in the past. It was something you could lovingly tease each other about. Unfortunately, something in SGI has warped and inflated her "woo," convincing it to swallow all other aspects of her personality. Puffing your "rational" side up in response will only tear the whole thing apart.
So, the best shot you have, I think, is to talk about this on the level of your relationship. It's not about the ideas. You mention you've had trouble managing time for the relationship along with other social and professional responsibilities. Approach this from that angle. "Your faith is starting to leave no space for us." Ultimately though, it'll be up to her whether she chooses the comforts of SGI or those of the relationship.
posted by AtoBtoA at 8:26 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sadly, I'm not sure there's really all that much you can do aside from letting her know how this recent turn in her faith is affecting you and your relationship together. Trying to use your "rationality" will not work because the goal is to save the relationship not to bring her thoughts more in line with yours. You see her "woo" as a failure to (or maybe it's more accurate to say, as a choice to not) recognize certain realities of the world and I'm sure she views your "rational" perspective in a very similar way but there was a balance and respect in the past. It was something you could lovingly tease each other about. Unfortunately, something in SGI has warped and inflated her "woo," convincing it to swallow all other aspects of her personality. Puffing your "rational" side up in response will only tear the whole thing apart.
So, the best shot you have, I think, is to talk about this on the level of your relationship. It's not about the ideas. You mention you've had trouble managing time for the relationship along with other social and professional responsibilities. Approach this from that angle. "Your faith is starting to leave no space for us." Ultimately though, it'll be up to her whether she chooses the comforts of SGI or those of the relationship.
posted by AtoBtoA at 8:26 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
She's daft. But I love her.
A few people have objected to this, but it's not condescending or mean, it's very commonly used with loved ones in Britain as a gentle kind of teasing.
Seconding this. I don't read 'daft' as insulting but I could see how those who don't use it in every day conversation but know what it means being shocked by the use. If you said "She's stupid. But I love her" then I would be shocked. Whereas "daft" or "daftie" comes across as quite affectionate to me.
posted by kitten magic at 8:40 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
A few people have objected to this, but it's not condescending or mean, it's very commonly used with loved ones in Britain as a gentle kind of teasing.
Seconding this. I don't read 'daft' as insulting but I could see how those who don't use it in every day conversation but know what it means being shocked by the use. If you said "She's stupid. But I love her" then I would be shocked. Whereas "daft" or "daftie" comes across as quite affectionate to me.
posted by kitten magic at 8:40 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry but I don't think you can "deprogram" your girlfriend, because, you know, she's an autonomous, adult human being and not a stock character in a video game. The best you can do is share your concern and see how she responds. If she doesn't share your values around avoiding exploitative dynamics in spiritual communities, then there is nothing you can do about it. I'm afraid that you might have to concede that you and your girlfriend just aren't on the same page and this might be a deal breaker for you.
posted by Gray Skies at 8:57 PM on June 2, 2015
posted by Gray Skies at 8:57 PM on June 2, 2015
for me the daft thing is more of a side concern to how you see yourself as hyper logical and her as being ruled by flights of fancy. putting aside the often gendered nature of that, it might be 100% true, but even so, the way you speak about her isn't very nice or indicative of respect. i'm betting she's picking up on that too, which is why she's looked outside of your relationship to bolster her spirit.
posted by nadawi at 10:01 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:01 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think people reacted so negatively to daft in part because the OP is explicitly asking for help to deprogram his GF. So even if it was intended affectionately, he pretty clearly has no faith in her thinking here.
I am sorry for how this thread went and for the subpar framing of my own previous reply. I came back to say that I had no desire to attack you and I hope to clarify my earlier point. The fact that you have no respect for things you view as woo and have ribbed your girlfriend about this for five years is a problem because it makes it impossible for anyone, including your girlfriend, to believe that your concerns about this organization are legitimate and not merely an expression of your personal prejudice on the subject. And that's why the responses largely divvied up based essentially on prior prejudice of the people answering it between folks who sound like they are attacking you, even if that wasn't really their intent, and folks who think it really is a cult.
My ex husband was generally dismissive of me, so when I had PMS and he was dismissive, it was just the excuse du jour for not respecting me. In contrast, my sons have a deep respect for me, so when they say "Hey, mom, you need to chill. You are overreacting. We think it is hormonal." I take that very seriously and I try to calm down. You are currently in the same position as my ex. You are very poorly positioned for getting your GF to take your concerns about this group seriously because of a long pattern of being dismissive and disrespectful about anything you feel is woo. This is why people are suggesting you try to talk about things like time and money instead of about the beliefs and practices. The problem is that even if you use that approach she may still feel that your real issue here is that you object to all things woo.
This is why I said you would need to try to genuinely respect her beliefs for a minimum of a few weeks before you have any hope of having a productive discussion. But that may well not be nearly enough, given the long history here. This may be unsalvageable, which will be very unfortunate if she really is being drawn into a cult. This is why lack of respect is such a huge issue in a relationship -- because it undermines effective communication when the chips are down, when there is a very serious problem, when, in short, you most need her to trust that you have her best interest at heart.
I am sorry you are faced with this. The odds of resolving it look poor to me.
posted by Michele in California at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am sorry for how this thread went and for the subpar framing of my own previous reply. I came back to say that I had no desire to attack you and I hope to clarify my earlier point. The fact that you have no respect for things you view as woo and have ribbed your girlfriend about this for five years is a problem because it makes it impossible for anyone, including your girlfriend, to believe that your concerns about this organization are legitimate and not merely an expression of your personal prejudice on the subject. And that's why the responses largely divvied up based essentially on prior prejudice of the people answering it between folks who sound like they are attacking you, even if that wasn't really their intent, and folks who think it really is a cult.
My ex husband was generally dismissive of me, so when I had PMS and he was dismissive, it was just the excuse du jour for not respecting me. In contrast, my sons have a deep respect for me, so when they say "Hey, mom, you need to chill. You are overreacting. We think it is hormonal." I take that very seriously and I try to calm down. You are currently in the same position as my ex. You are very poorly positioned for getting your GF to take your concerns about this group seriously because of a long pattern of being dismissive and disrespectful about anything you feel is woo. This is why people are suggesting you try to talk about things like time and money instead of about the beliefs and practices. The problem is that even if you use that approach she may still feel that your real issue here is that you object to all things woo.
This is why I said you would need to try to genuinely respect her beliefs for a minimum of a few weeks before you have any hope of having a productive discussion. But that may well not be nearly enough, given the long history here. This may be unsalvageable, which will be very unfortunate if she really is being drawn into a cult. This is why lack of respect is such a huge issue in a relationship -- because it undermines effective communication when the chips are down, when there is a very serious problem, when, in short, you most need her to trust that you have her best interest at heart.
I am sorry you are faced with this. The odds of resolving it look poor to me.
posted by Michele in California at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Kestrelxo at 10:23 AM on June 2, 2015 [6 favorites]