Founded by Scientologist reject, family abuser, and tax avoider all in one!

March 20, 2005 5:10 PM

The Landmark Forum / est, courtesy Werner Erhard, has stolen my friends. Please help!

Three friends of mine have recently been sucked into this "human potential" seminar, originally called est. One of them wants to pay for the business he works at to take the forum, which would use up his considerable savings. Another "completed" with me, something I found highly unpleasant because it involved her telling me all the horrible things she'd done to me in her mind over the years, with a flimsy promise to do better now. She also gave me a bizzarre lecture on the difference between decisions and choices. Good god!

What's the best way for me to deal with this? These are good friends, and I don't want them throwing their money away in return for a creepy dependance on the Forum.

Please share any of your experiences, positive or negative. Thanks!

posted by lorrer to human relations (28 comments total)

I think asking on a messageboard isn't the right thing to do. There are so many variables in a situation like this, it would be impossible to take any advice other than what your mind and instinct dishes out. You know yourself, you know your friends - if you feel you should talk to them about it, do it - if you feel you should give them some time, do that. But please, do what you feel is right in this delicate situation, not what someone else tells you.
posted by nitsuj at 5:21 PM on March 20, 2005

Actually, I'd just like to know more about it. I know of couple of guys who got into it, but I still don't really understand it.

My roommate and his girlfriend went to a "graduation" for one of them. He thought he was going to support a friend. He only saw the guy for a couple minutes, and then they were scooted off to separate rooms and given a long lecture on the benefits of Landmark.

I don't care what it's purpose is, in my opinion there is no legitimate organization on earth that can do that. Deception, control and coercion simply are not useful tools in helping people. I'm highly skeptical.
posted by frufry at 5:27 PM on March 20, 2005

Not sure why this is such a bad idea, seems like people ask for similar info (advice and anecdotes) with regard to interpersonal situations all the time. If that bothers people, perhaps it's a discussion best left for the grey.
posted by lorrer at 5:27 PM on March 20, 2005

nitsuj, I disagree. From the limited amount I know, there are some legitimate concerns to be had about Landmark.
I think lorrer is trying to see if other people feel similarly, or if maybe some people have better explanations or defenses for the group's practices.
I agree that confronting your friends is more situational. I'll just say that in my experience these people are extremely hard to approach. They've turned to (or been taking in by) Landmark because of things in their lives that aren't going well. It seems to give hope - or something - and asking people to look at that rationally and even give it up is very difficult. I'm guessing you'll find them extremely stubborn and defensive.
posted by frufry at 5:33 PM on March 20, 2005

Wait it out. They'll come back to their senses in three years' time. If they really do make a significant change to their lives, be happy for them. If they don't, well, at least they've had an interesting experience.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:37 PM on March 20, 2005

The previous extensive thread on this subject (also tagged with selfhelp).
posted by smackfu at 5:38 PM on March 20, 2005

Oh thanks, I searched "landmark forum" but somehow this didn't come up! Very helpful, thank you smackfu.
posted by lorrer at 5:40 PM on March 20, 2005

Yeah, the Google search sucks for some reason. I knew it had been discussed recently so I used the site search on "Erhard" and it came up.
posted by smackfu at 5:44 PM on March 20, 2005

Whatever you do, don't accidentally call up any cult awareness groups that are actually fronts for Scientology.
posted by inksyndicate at 5:48 PM on March 20, 2005

Or take a "Free Stress Test" in New York City (I know they have them in the Times Square subway station, and other places I can't remember off the top of my head). Yup, that's Scientology, too.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:58 PM on March 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

The old MeFi thread linked in the askme thread is also pretty interesting, and you'll prob notice some of the same names recurring...

as for how you should deal with it, I found that I just had to kind of let it run its course with the people I knew who were into it. I made it as clear as I could that there was really no chance I was going to get involved (although that honestly did not stop them from constantly attempting to get me involved) and I tried to explain why it didn't suit me (as I think I explained adequately in those other threads), but after initial shock/annoyance/horror, I tried to be understanding about it and accept that they were finding it useful in some way, and that it could even have beneficial results, etc, much as it turned me off personally.

Sometimes different people find different things useful, and it doesn't really help to insist that they're being idiots or something. Try to just neutrally let them be, while at the same time letting them know more or less non-judgmentally what your responses are. Basically, I would advise toward removed skepticism rather than aggressive de-programming or rejection.

You may also find it useful to subtly reduce the amount of time you spend with them for a moment. For most people, "this, too, shall pass" - they'll get all adrenalized and hyped about it for maybe a month or two, and then chill out and be mostly back to normal.
posted by mdn at 7:00 PM on March 20, 2005

my wife was dragged into this a few years ago by a friend of hers. I was blissfully ignorant of what it was until she brought me to the "graduation" ceremony. I have good news and bad news for you.
The bad news is that your friends are probably going to spend their hard earned cash on this crap. These people make it very clear that unless someone has been through "the forum", they can't know what it's all about. Therefore, nothing you say about it has any validity.
The good news is that they'll probably be all fanatic about it for maybe a couple months. After that, they'll go back to being the people you want to be friends with. They'll probably even be a little embarassed they got involved with what's obviously a boderline cult.
posted by cosmicbandito at 7:08 PM on March 20, 2005

The previous MeFi threads (mentioned above) are worth reading.

At the very least be sure to read New York Magazine's Pay Money, Be Happy and Landmark Forum: Just a Bowl of Cherries...But Watch Out For The Pits!
posted by ericb at 7:10 PM on March 20, 2005

If it's a cult, any doubt/opposition on your part, could very well be interpreted by your friends as implying that *you* are the one who is screwed up, and thus in need of some form of est/whatever to correct your own imbalances/imperfections/whatever. In other words, it works so that if you agree with them, they think they're right; and if you disagree with them, then they *really* know they're right (partly because they've been told to expect opposition from you by the cult/organization concerned).

So basically I'm saying, if you try and intervene, be prepared for it to be thrown back in your face, in a very mindless, look-I'm-sticking-my-fingers-in-my-ears-and-can't-hear-you-nah-nah-nee-nee way. I lost a friend to a similar organization a while back, she sold her house and gave them the proceeds, and also gave up custody of her child, to stay with them. She never gave up trying to get me to attend a 'seminar' (which even then was $500/day, I think).
posted by carter at 8:06 PM on March 20, 2005

Here's a reply from my brother, who doesn't have an account but wants this added to the conversation:

People are people.. and you have to let them live their life. Landmark is just self-help.. people see something in it for themselves, transform in some way, and are elated with the results. This leads them to wanting to share it with everyone they know, and then some. Happens all the time with someone's new favorite food ("Have you been to xxx on 33rd? You have to try it! No really! No, we are going tomorrow night!") and even most modern day religions..

As for your friend, let him do what he wants. If you can't be with his new persona, so be it.. give him room to breathe and see what happens next. Would it be any different if he started preaching Dr. Phil on you?

I have gone through the Forum, learned a lot and left it alone. Many people go through all of their classes and get a lot out of it. I don't know that I would call this a cult, a cult effects people on a much stronger and deeper level.. this is more of a transformative self-help thing.

posted by id at 8:20 PM on March 20, 2005

My experience with the Forum and other Landmark courses over a couple of years was extremely positive. They are very annoying about recruiting, but besides that it was fascinating and generally great.
posted by alms at 8:42 PM on March 20, 2005

There is such a thing as a cult deprogrammer, but I don't know if they're reliable or not.
posted by callmejay at 8:44 PM on March 20, 2005

Have a little fun with it. Ask your friends if you can interview them on tape talking about what it did for them. Get it all down and say you want to listen to it later and think about it. Or maybe just write down what they've said. Create a record.

Then, in a few months, when the hallucinatory after-effect of sleep deprivation, social fear, and reinforcement from all the groupthink has worn off and they start acting more normal again....play it back to them.

Ok, I'm kidding, but maybe just a little. The Forum does indeed meet a basic social scientists' definition of a cult. It's not just normal self-help, as is obvious by the level of slightly defenisce sensitivity and the typical 'you just have to be there to understand'. Viz:

Cult: Any group which has a pyramidal, authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to some type of fulfillment (God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness), and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep theirmembers.

This definition covers cults within all major world
religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS
religious base such as commercial, educational and
psychological cults.

One of my former housemates was into this stuff. She evinced a really clear cycle of going to a workshop, coming back and being absolutely high on it for a week, going to her followups and being high on that, and then three months later, once again reverting to her normal behavior.

Who wouldn't be elated if you told them that who they were in the past doesn't matter, it's all about the future you make? Who doesn't want to be absolved of guilt for all your wrongdoing? We all do. But the truth is, we actually cannot deny being the person who did those bad things, no matter how many tearful phone calls we make. To err is human. And no matter how cleansing and energizing the workshop may feel, after a few months, when our day-to-day behavior returns unchanged despite the $400 we dropped, we must either say 'well, I['m human, and since I never actually addressed these issues, they have returned;' or say 'OMG! I need another $400 workshop!'
posted by Miko at 8:49 PM on March 20, 2005

Pshaw. It's not a cult. Amway is a cult. Landmark is just a quick rinse of the brain, no detergents used.

They'll stop going (a) when they run out of money, or (b) when they get sick of the recruitment pressure bullshit.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:16 PM on March 20, 2005

You'll probably want to be able to have a coherent conversation with them. I find it's helpful, in this sort of situation, to find as much common ground as possible. That may mean agreeing with a lot of what they say, at least for the sake of argument.

If you quibble with every little thing, it's easier for them to write you off as confrontational or closed-minded or what have you. If you agree with the basic common-sense points, try to understand their outlook, and generally act reasonable, then you may earn some points with them — points that you'll need to cash in on if you have to talk them out of something truly stupid.

(Also, FWIW, I'm with the people who think this is mostly harmless. I don't have much experience with Landmark devotees, but the few I've known were ... well, eccentric and a bit annoying, but their hearts were in the right place.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:36 AM on March 21, 2005

Wow, I could write about this for days…
20 years ago or so, I had a girlfriend join a Cult in NYC called Direct Centering (don’t know if they’re still around). I talked with a deprogrammer about her plight, and ended up becoming very interested in cults and their techniques in general. I ended up doing their “Course” which lasted 3 days, and even (as part of my research) went to see Werner Erhard speak at the Felt Forum in NYC. An amazing experience, mostly to see how well someone can manipulate American’s love of and addiction to the metaphor. But that's another story.
There’s a lot to go over but the crux of my fascination was this:
How could I say that my happiness was more valid than theirs?
The fact was, it’s an objective thing, and I couldn’t. Even if that was my intuition.
But I noticed a prevailing factor among the people I ran into who were into these things (Direct Centering, The Forum, Hare Krishnas etc…)
Nearly to the last, they were sincere, eager, intelligent, and they believed strongly in the message they were sending (most of which can be found in the Tao Te Ching). However, as any actor will tell you, an audience has a personality separate from the people in it. A singular personality. And when these earnest, searching people all get together, they make a beast that only wants to eat more people. That’s the recruitment thing.
I think that’s bad.
I don’t consider AA a cult, because they ask for nothing in return but your time. Not money.
I think of the Forum as a cult because they do. And they encourage members to disassociate themselves from those who don’t want to do the “course”. At least they used to. Even if they don't say it outright, it's definitely implied.
All that being said, I remember going to a Forum Introductory meeting as a kind of field trip, and after all the other groups I had investigated, they seemed like amateurs to me.
I also noticed that nearly all of the people who were in those groups used to be artists of some kind: actors/writers/sculptors etc… but when you immerse yourself in a logic system that’s a complete and closed loop, and explains everything, the need for a creative expression of the “other” goes away. I actually heard it described in these terms a few times.
Note: Most of the information they put forth is useful, can be found in the Tao Te Ching (really) and I agree with it. What I don't agree with is selling it. A real spiritual teacher wouldn't do it.
Obviously there’s a ton more to say on the subject, but it’s late, and that’s my .02 for now.
posted by asavage at 1:09 AM on March 21, 2005 [1 favorite]

I had a friend who got into the Landmark Forum stuff. He was very persistent that I go, so my two friends and I went. I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it at the time. The whole thing also seemed about making you uncomfortable/putting you out of your comfort zone. Really bad chairs. They didn't want you sitting near people you knew, etc. I made it all the way to lunch on the first day--at which point they really hadn't said anything of substance. I spent the lunch break repeating over and over 'please take me home, I don't want to be here'. (I had not driven my car, big mistake.) About an hour after lunch my friend who was driving decided he wanted to leave also. We walked out and were allowed refunds. I think it takes a special personality type to really get into the Landmark Forum stuff. I don't particularly want to look to a group of strangers for support or tell a lot of people I don't know personal things about myself.
posted by joelr at 4:16 AM on March 21, 2005

And they encourage members to disassociate themselves from those who don’t want to do the “course”.

That'd be the #1 flashing big lights warning sign to me.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:46 AM on March 21, 2005

And they encourage members to disassociate themselves from those who don’t want to do the “course”

NO, they do NOT. Instead they enourage members to work on their communication skills and to maintain relationships with people in hopes they'll someday change their minds and decide to try it.

Asavage, you are much closer to the mark when you say how much of the material can be found in the Tao Te Ching. Very true. One of the course leaders I knew in Landmark even said right out that a lot of the same ideas can be found in Zen Buddhism. This is why I say (as I've said in other threads on the subject) that the material of Landmark Forum is very good and worthwhile, though so much emphasis on signing other people up does spoil it.

Lorrer, I would encourage you to take a deep breath, do not fly off the handle at all the "cult deprogrammer" talk here in this thread, and wait things out. If your friends have only just recently done the Forum, then they're still a little high on the ideas of it. In time they will either make good on the possibilities they're seeing, or they won't. Either way, just keep being a friend. However, I do advise against going to any guest seminar they will invite you to. (look for my posts in the previous thread for more details why.) Only talk to your actual friends about it, and when they use words and concepts you don't quite understand, make them work to put it another way until you can get it.
posted by dnash at 10:39 AM on March 21, 2005

Interesting how these programs keep going on. I've never been through any although friends have. I'm intrigued by their cultish aspects, which also frighten me such that I remain aloof. I first read about est in the late 70s, in a Time magazine article -- what remained the most memorable is participants being forbidden bathroom breaks. (A late 80s co-worker and Forum participant told me they've relaxed that rule, but I'm now skeptical of any claims by the initiated.) In the early 80s certain acquaintances wanted me to join them in Lifespring, which is I believe a splinter group. I went to a 'guest event' and it gave my the creeps so I escaped at the first opportunity.

I think asking on a messageboard isn't the right thing to do.
I disagree strongly, nitsuj -- are you one of Them? Like odinsdream sad in the previous thread,
They don't advertise, so you'll only hear about it from people you already know. This makes it seem nice, since, hey your friend likes it, so maybe you will too.

This aspect once made unbiased information difficult to obtain, since only the initiated knew about it. But now we have Google, and Ask MeFi!
posted by Rash at 10:41 AM on March 21, 2005

Oh, in relation to the title of this thread - my information is that the "family abuser" charges turned out to be false, and I think the tax case ended up settled in Erhard's favor. There was an actual documented smear campaign against Erhard by the Scientologists, because they regarded him as competition. So I think the charges against him need to be taken with a grain of salt.
posted by dnash at 10:44 AM on March 21, 2005

A late 80s co-worker and Forum participant told me they've relaxed that rule, but I'm now skeptical of any claims by the initiated.

So, you think the Forum turns people into pathological liars? I don't understand why you're unwilling to trust the reporting of a simple fact - that there's no rule against bathroom breaks in the Forum anymore.

If you need to step out to the bathroom, you'll be asked where you're going. Why? So they know to go check on you if you don't return in a certain amount of time, to make sure you're ok. The course deals with some emotional stuff that can be distressing or upsetting to some people. They want to make sure if anyone suddenly decides they can't take it and wants to leave, that they understand why.
posted by dnash at 10:52 AM on March 21, 2005

I'd say, don't worry too much. A good friend of mine went to the intro course and loved it -- was angling very strongly to get me to go, but I kept saying no. She went to the advanced course, and did the follow-up meetings, but finally -- at around the sixth or seventh of the ten followups -- decided that the amount of pressure she was getting to persuade others to sign up was too much. She feels she got benefit from the courses, which is great, but she now realises that they pressure their 'graduates' to persuade others to sign up far too much.

I suspect your friends will come to the same realisation before too long...
posted by littleme at 11:06 AM on March 21, 2005