Cheating enablement or friendship?
March 17, 2015 11:49 AM Subscribe
One of my favorite traits about my boyfriend is his loyalty - to me, his family, his friends. However, his roommate and close friend has been in a dysfunctional, drama-filled relationship with a single mom and continues to cheat on her with other women. My boyfriend has helped him not get caught out on several occasions. Am I being unreasonable in thinking he's enabling some pretty sleazy behavior?
My boyfriend, 33, and I have been together long enough now that I know he'd never cheat on me in any way. He's patient, kind and loyal, and he makes me happy - with the exception of some of the company he keeps. His roommate, 'D', is 29. He was married young, divorced, and struck up a relationship with a needy, clingy single mom, 'A'. She. Is. Drama. Things can get really exhausting whenever we're all out having fun, especially if there's alcohol involved. I'm sick of being around them - I find her whiny and annoying (this is harsh, but it is consensus among the group of friends), and while D is an otherwise very likable person, recent events have made me not want to be around them anymore.
A's birthday was a couple weeks ago, while I was out of town. I asked my boyfriend not to go because every time A has an event, there's drama - one memorable occasion had her best friend throwing herself at him in front of me. He assured me he'd only be there for a bit and then leave. Yesterday, he casually told me that D had been messing around with another girl 'H' (she's just one more in a long line of girls) who showed up at the bar that A's party was at. D had been close to being caught out, but A was too inebriated to put things together, and my boyfriend spent the night subverting disaster for D (this included making up stories for H and her friends) until he couldn't any longer and made D go home with A. They proceeded to go back to the house and continue to drink and argue, and my boyfriend spent the night in peace and quiet at my place.
Just writing this out infuriates me, because I detest that my boyfriend is involved in this immature crap that reads like high-school shenanigans. D and he are good friends that would do anything for each other, but I feel that he shouldn't be enabling D's sleaziness in that regard. There's a child involved who loves D, but he continues to cheat on this woman (has been for three years now). My boyfriend also told me that while he's advised D several times on this entire situation, he is always going to bail D out in such situations. He's turned a blind eye to the numerous times D has other women over, and this is what really gets me: he's acted as wingman for him! In my annoyance last night I told him that this was skirting the boundaries of propriety of our own relationship, but he was somewhat dismissive and said that I should trust his judgment. According to him, each of his friendships contributes something positive to his life and he'd like to keep it that way - 'live and let live'. To me, things don't have to be all or nothing: I feel that he can continue to be a good friend to D by letting D learn from his idiocy. Of all their friends, my boyfriend is closest to this situation because D is his roommate.
Am I wrong in believing that my boyfriend should firmly refuse to involve himself in D's love life? That my boyfriend stepping in to make sure D doesn't get caught is only enabling this nonsense? How do I make him understand that mature, stable adults don't get caught up in this kind of drama and that it makes me dislike his friends? I don't want to be the bitchy girlfriend that refuses to join group events but we have one coming up that I really do not want to go to. He's asked me to go for his sake, and I've refused. I feel guilty that I'm not doing what he'd like me to do (he's wonderful to me in all other aspects), but am I wrong in standing my ground on this? Should I go for his sake and pretend to like D and A and the kid playing family when I know what's going on? My heart breaks for the little girl that idolizes him.
Thanks, hive mind!
My boyfriend, 33, and I have been together long enough now that I know he'd never cheat on me in any way. He's patient, kind and loyal, and he makes me happy - with the exception of some of the company he keeps. His roommate, 'D', is 29. He was married young, divorced, and struck up a relationship with a needy, clingy single mom, 'A'. She. Is. Drama. Things can get really exhausting whenever we're all out having fun, especially if there's alcohol involved. I'm sick of being around them - I find her whiny and annoying (this is harsh, but it is consensus among the group of friends), and while D is an otherwise very likable person, recent events have made me not want to be around them anymore.
A's birthday was a couple weeks ago, while I was out of town. I asked my boyfriend not to go because every time A has an event, there's drama - one memorable occasion had her best friend throwing herself at him in front of me. He assured me he'd only be there for a bit and then leave. Yesterday, he casually told me that D had been messing around with another girl 'H' (she's just one more in a long line of girls) who showed up at the bar that A's party was at. D had been close to being caught out, but A was too inebriated to put things together, and my boyfriend spent the night subverting disaster for D (this included making up stories for H and her friends) until he couldn't any longer and made D go home with A. They proceeded to go back to the house and continue to drink and argue, and my boyfriend spent the night in peace and quiet at my place.
Just writing this out infuriates me, because I detest that my boyfriend is involved in this immature crap that reads like high-school shenanigans. D and he are good friends that would do anything for each other, but I feel that he shouldn't be enabling D's sleaziness in that regard. There's a child involved who loves D, but he continues to cheat on this woman (has been for three years now). My boyfriend also told me that while he's advised D several times on this entire situation, he is always going to bail D out in such situations. He's turned a blind eye to the numerous times D has other women over, and this is what really gets me: he's acted as wingman for him! In my annoyance last night I told him that this was skirting the boundaries of propriety of our own relationship, but he was somewhat dismissive and said that I should trust his judgment. According to him, each of his friendships contributes something positive to his life and he'd like to keep it that way - 'live and let live'. To me, things don't have to be all or nothing: I feel that he can continue to be a good friend to D by letting D learn from his idiocy. Of all their friends, my boyfriend is closest to this situation because D is his roommate.
Am I wrong in believing that my boyfriend should firmly refuse to involve himself in D's love life? That my boyfriend stepping in to make sure D doesn't get caught is only enabling this nonsense? How do I make him understand that mature, stable adults don't get caught up in this kind of drama and that it makes me dislike his friends? I don't want to be the bitchy girlfriend that refuses to join group events but we have one coming up that I really do not want to go to. He's asked me to go for his sake, and I've refused. I feel guilty that I'm not doing what he'd like me to do (he's wonderful to me in all other aspects), but am I wrong in standing my ground on this? Should I go for his sake and pretend to like D and A and the kid playing family when I know what's going on? My heart breaks for the little girl that idolizes him.
Thanks, hive mind!
Getting in between your boyfriend and his friend will only drive the wedge between you two, not them. Trust me, though I share your opinions, I've experienced it for myself - your bf has to get tired of his buddy's drama on his own.
posted by lizbunny at 11:58 AM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by lizbunny at 11:58 AM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: How do I make him understand that mature, stable adults don't get caught up in this kind of drama and that it makes me dislike his friends? .
You explain that his behavior is making you dislike him.
posted by argonauta at 11:58 AM on March 17, 2015 [60 favorites]
You explain that his behavior is making you dislike him.
posted by argonauta at 11:58 AM on March 17, 2015 [60 favorites]
If your boyfriend doesn't already understand that "mature, stable adults don't get caught up in this kind of drama", you have your answer--your boyfriend is not a mature, stable adult.
posted by murrey at 12:00 PM on March 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by murrey at 12:00 PM on March 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
How do I make him understand that mature, stable adults don't get caught up in this kind of drama and that it makes me dislike his friends?
I think that was his parents' job, not your job. You're not wrong for not liking this stuff. But your only course of action is to get away from all of these people if you don't like them.
I don't want to be the bitchy girlfriend that refuses to join group events but we have one coming up that I really do not want to go to
Oh man, please don't do stuff you don't want to do because of some bullshit stereotype. These people are obviously making you feel bad about yourself and have non-fun times, why make yourself miserable like this?
posted by bleep at 12:03 PM on March 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think that was his parents' job, not your job. You're not wrong for not liking this stuff. But your only course of action is to get away from all of these people if you don't like them.
I don't want to be the bitchy girlfriend that refuses to join group events but we have one coming up that I really do not want to go to
Oh man, please don't do stuff you don't want to do because of some bullshit stereotype. These people are obviously making you feel bad about yourself and have non-fun times, why make yourself miserable like this?
posted by bleep at 12:03 PM on March 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: You know, I was honestly a little on the fence for most of your post there. I was thinking, "Okay, his behavior is pretty sleazy, but I could see how he could be in denial because it's his close friend." It certainly wouldn't excuse the behavior, but it made me think that maybe your boyfriend was just in denial about the whole thing.
Then you said your boyfriend has actively acted as D's wingman.
Nope. Nope. That's a whole step beyond, and says to me that your boyfriend is fully aware that he's not only enabling, but actively encouraging this sort of shitty behavior. This, to me, is inexcusable.
That said, there's probably nothing to very little you can do to change your boyfriend's mind - and how exactly you would go about doing that would be heavily dependent on him. Honestly, if he's chill enough with this kind of behavior that he would actively help D cheat on this woman, I would be concerned about how he views your relationship.
posted by Urban Winter at 12:04 PM on March 17, 2015 [30 favorites]
Then you said your boyfriend has actively acted as D's wingman.
Nope. Nope. That's a whole step beyond, and says to me that your boyfriend is fully aware that he's not only enabling, but actively encouraging this sort of shitty behavior. This, to me, is inexcusable.
That said, there's probably nothing to very little you can do to change your boyfriend's mind - and how exactly you would go about doing that would be heavily dependent on him. Honestly, if he's chill enough with this kind of behavior that he would actively help D cheat on this woman, I would be concerned about how he views your relationship.
posted by Urban Winter at 12:04 PM on March 17, 2015 [30 favorites]
Best answer: Yes and no. While a true friend would call this person out on his cheating and other sleazy behavior, it is not your friendship. You can only advise. In this case I would advise him to call D out on his cheating and sleazy behavior. But you can't make him do it, I suppose.
On the other hand, if he's willing to go to bat for this sleazeball, how can you be so sure that "he'd never cheat on me in any way?" Personally, I would never cheat, no matter how badly I thought my relationship was faring... I know that even the suspicion of someone cheating tore me apart, so why would I want to do that to someone else? In that regard, I also preach this, in that if I see a friend acting this way, I *WILL* call him (or in some cases the friend has been a her) out on it.
Luckily, the friends I have left don't pull this kind of crap.
So, to sum:
1. This friendship is none of your business and existed before you were in his life.
2. You can (and should) advise him to call D out on his crap.
3. You cannot FORCE him to call D out on his crap.
4. You can voice your opinion that you don't like it, that it reflects poorly on your boyfriend, and is causing you to see him in a bad light and doubt that you can trust him if he lets this behavior slide in others.
#4 ought to wake him up. If not, well, you guys aren't engaged, and you can feel free to DTMFA and move on -- but NOT before giving him a chance on this.
posted by tckma at 12:07 PM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
On the other hand, if he's willing to go to bat for this sleazeball, how can you be so sure that "he'd never cheat on me in any way?" Personally, I would never cheat, no matter how badly I thought my relationship was faring... I know that even the suspicion of someone cheating tore me apart, so why would I want to do that to someone else? In that regard, I also preach this, in that if I see a friend acting this way, I *WILL* call him (or in some cases the friend has been a her) out on it.
Luckily, the friends I have left don't pull this kind of crap.
So, to sum:
1. This friendship is none of your business and existed before you were in his life.
2. You can (and should) advise him to call D out on his crap.
3. You cannot FORCE him to call D out on his crap.
4. You can voice your opinion that you don't like it, that it reflects poorly on your boyfriend, and is causing you to see him in a bad light and doubt that you can trust him if he lets this behavior slide in others.
#4 ought to wake him up. If not, well, you guys aren't engaged, and you can feel free to DTMFA and move on -- but NOT before giving him a chance on this.
posted by tckma at 12:07 PM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Everydayville: "He's turned a blind eye to the numerous times D has other women over, and this is what really gets me: he's acted as wingman for him!"
That's not enabling. That's participating. I would not be able to trust someone who engaged in that level of deception, and I'm kind of surprised that you would, given your apparent attitude towards infidelity. I guess you have to ask yourself if this is a dealbreaker or not. If it is not, then you are going to have to find a way to come to terms with it (but it's totally fine to not go to events where this kind of behavior might go on, if you are opposed to it). If it is, then you should make that clear to your boyfriend and let him make his own decisions.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:11 PM on March 17, 2015 [19 favorites]
That's not enabling. That's participating. I would not be able to trust someone who engaged in that level of deception, and I'm kind of surprised that you would, given your apparent attitude towards infidelity. I guess you have to ask yourself if this is a dealbreaker or not. If it is not, then you are going to have to find a way to come to terms with it (but it's totally fine to not go to events where this kind of behavior might go on, if you are opposed to it). If it is, then you should make that clear to your boyfriend and let him make his own decisions.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:11 PM on March 17, 2015 [19 favorites]
I'm pretty loyal to my friends, but if they do stuff that I consider wrong there's a limit. If someone came to me and said they had cheated on their girlfriend, feel terrible, what should they do etc., I'd honor the secrecy and try to help them out. Everyone makes mistakes; the important thing is to recognize them and try to do better. But if I had a friend that routinely did stuff like your boyfriend's roommate? Yeah ... I couldn't be friends with someone like that very long. If someone is in a relationship that isn't working and they want to get intimate with someone else, the best process is:
1) terminate bad relationship
2) get intimate with new person
Switching the order causes a lot of problems.
posted by freecellwizard at 12:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
1) terminate bad relationship
2) get intimate with new person
Switching the order causes a lot of problems.
posted by freecellwizard at 12:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is more than enabling. This is being an accomplice. This is active participation.
Frankly, if he is prepared to set up another woman for this kind of poor treatment - you yourself should be wary of him.
posted by Flood at 12:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [23 favorites]
Frankly, if he is prepared to set up another woman for this kind of poor treatment - you yourself should be wary of him.
posted by Flood at 12:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [23 favorites]
He's not really selective about who he's loyal to, which could indicate a weak moral compass and lack of character. It's up to you to decide if you can still respect him. And I think your not liking what he's doing in the name of loyalty is a testament to your good character and integrity.
Having a partner with integrity and character is incredibly important to so many aspects of a relationship. A partner without those things isn't going to be much of a partner. The guy who has the ability to say to his friend,"What you're doing is wrong" is the only kind of guy worth having a partnership with, not the guy who rolls over and does whatever his bros want him to because they're his bros. Because an aimlessly loyal guy can do pretty egregious things without thinking twice.
posted by discopolo at 12:15 PM on March 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Having a partner with integrity and character is incredibly important to so many aspects of a relationship. A partner without those things isn't going to be much of a partner. The guy who has the ability to say to his friend,"What you're doing is wrong" is the only kind of guy worth having a partnership with, not the guy who rolls over and does whatever his bros want him to because they're his bros. Because an aimlessly loyal guy can do pretty egregious things without thinking twice.
posted by discopolo at 12:15 PM on March 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Am I wrong in believing that my boyfriend should firmly refuse to involve himself in D's love life?
there is no rule on this. so you are neither right or wrong. nor is he.
this is better framed as what you want, not what is right or wrong.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:15 PM on March 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
there is no rule on this. so you are neither right or wrong. nor is he.
this is better framed as what you want, not what is right or wrong.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:15 PM on March 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I don't want to be the bitchy girlfriend that refuses to join group events but we have one coming up that I really do not want to go to
Get that "misogynistic bro complainer" voice out of your head. You answer to yourself, not to imaginary voices in your head. You are not a bitchy anybody and anyone who thinks so is a dumbass.
posted by discopolo at 12:19 PM on March 17, 2015 [47 favorites]
Get that "misogynistic bro complainer" voice out of your head. You answer to yourself, not to imaginary voices in your head. You are not a bitchy anybody and anyone who thinks so is a dumbass.
posted by discopolo at 12:19 PM on March 17, 2015 [47 favorites]
I'm going to volunteer that marriage to this person in untenable, and the relationship is winding down. Hear me out...
Stable adults do not participate in these shenanigans - you're 10000% correct. It is really troubling that your BF is defending his position in this situation. It is a harbinger of things to come. Run while you can. NOTHING will make up for this when you have children involved and the disagreement about his maturity is effecting your children and your livelihood. The stakes will be so much higher. You will suffer for his hubris....
Or you will avoid all the suffering and drama by recognizing this boy has a tragic character flaw, and that your efforts are better spent looking for a more suitable partner.
Don't marry this guy. His character flaw will severely undermine your future, the way it is undermining your trust right now. No trust, no relationship.
FWIW, it is really strange that your BF can't parse how his choices are making him look bad, but you need to stop minimizing, too. This is deal breaker territory if you have an eye on a future happy marriage. Find someone better. I am very very serious.
posted by jbenben at 12:24 PM on March 17, 2015 [20 favorites]
Stable adults do not participate in these shenanigans - you're 10000% correct. It is really troubling that your BF is defending his position in this situation. It is a harbinger of things to come. Run while you can. NOTHING will make up for this when you have children involved and the disagreement about his maturity is effecting your children and your livelihood. The stakes will be so much higher. You will suffer for his hubris....
Or you will avoid all the suffering and drama by recognizing this boy has a tragic character flaw, and that your efforts are better spent looking for a more suitable partner.
Don't marry this guy. His character flaw will severely undermine your future, the way it is undermining your trust right now. No trust, no relationship.
FWIW, it is really strange that your BF can't parse how his choices are making him look bad, but you need to stop minimizing, too. This is deal breaker territory if you have an eye on a future happy marriage. Find someone better. I am very very serious.
posted by jbenben at 12:24 PM on March 17, 2015 [20 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm really valuing all of your input.
My boyfriend has called D out on his behavior several times but also seems protective of him because of a difficult past (for D).
The fact that he acted as wingman (it only happened once, but once is bad enough) does bother me significantly. He's flippant about being in these situations, although he has noticeably reduced the amount of time he spends out with D. This morning, after our heated conversation yesterday, he called me to say that he was wrong for being dismissive and that has not happened since and would not happen again.
I guess this just leaves a bad taste... I know how I would react if one of my friends did the same thing. Will stop threadsitting now!
posted by Everydayville at 12:24 PM on March 17, 2015
My boyfriend has called D out on his behavior several times but also seems protective of him because of a difficult past (for D).
The fact that he acted as wingman (it only happened once, but once is bad enough) does bother me significantly. He's flippant about being in these situations, although he has noticeably reduced the amount of time he spends out with D. This morning, after our heated conversation yesterday, he called me to say that he was wrong for being dismissive and that has not happened since and would not happen again.
I guess this just leaves a bad taste... I know how I would react if one of my friends did the same thing. Will stop threadsitting now!
posted by Everydayville at 12:24 PM on March 17, 2015
my boyfriend spent the night subverting disaster for D (this included making up stories for H and her friends)
So you're saying that your boyfriend is a liar?
He's a liar and he doesn't appear to have any compassion for any of the women D is involved with.
No wonder you're unnerved. Stop feeling guilty or uncool about having some empathy and ethics.
Ask yourself how much you can trust someone who isn't on the same page as you in regards to 1) not being a liar and, 2) having compassion for people who aren't "best friends."
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:27 PM on March 17, 2015 [38 favorites]
So you're saying that your boyfriend is a liar?
He's a liar and he doesn't appear to have any compassion for any of the women D is involved with.
No wonder you're unnerved. Stop feeling guilty or uncool about having some empathy and ethics.
Ask yourself how much you can trust someone who isn't on the same page as you in regards to 1) not being a liar and, 2) having compassion for people who aren't "best friends."
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:27 PM on March 17, 2015 [38 favorites]
The fact that he acted as wingman (it only happened once, but once is bad enough) does bother me significantly. He's flippant about being in these situations, although he has noticeably reduced the amount of time he spends out with D. This morning, after our heated conversation yesterday, he called me to say that he was wrong for being dismissive and that has not happened since and would not happen again.
He's still lacking empathy for the poor kid of the single mom, like the reasonable level of empathy anyone would have when assessing the situation. When mom finds out, and it all hits the fan, that kid is going to have to deal with a mom who might not be equipped for being adult.
I kinda think your bf likes drama to some extent, likes being involved in gross situations like this. The only thing that made him feel bad was your outlining exactly what was wrong about his behavior.
posted by discopolo at 12:29 PM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
He's still lacking empathy for the poor kid of the single mom, like the reasonable level of empathy anyone would have when assessing the situation. When mom finds out, and it all hits the fan, that kid is going to have to deal with a mom who might not be equipped for being adult.
I kinda think your bf likes drama to some extent, likes being involved in gross situations like this. The only thing that made him feel bad was your outlining exactly what was wrong about his behavior.
posted by discopolo at 12:29 PM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Why do you have to go to these things with him? If there's not space for you to say "I don't really like that crowd, so I'm going to stay home that night," that's a problem. Couples don't have to do everything together. If I were you I would stop attending these events and cut these people out. Your boyfriend can see them if he wants, but I would also set the boundary of "I won't talk about those people" as well.
You can be clear and kind and straightforward when setting these boundaries: "I don't mind if you go or if you remain friends with D. Your personal life is yours. But I don't want to be involved in D on any level. It is too much drama and it actually ends up introducing tension into our relationship. It really bothers me and I don't want it in my life anymore."
And then wait to see what happens. He will hopefully see that D is nothing but drama and will fade him out. But he might not. The most important thing you can do is excise D from your own life in every way possible. He's not worth your mental energy.
posted by sockermom at 12:29 PM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
You can be clear and kind and straightforward when setting these boundaries: "I don't mind if you go or if you remain friends with D. Your personal life is yours. But I don't want to be involved in D on any level. It is too much drama and it actually ends up introducing tension into our relationship. It really bothers me and I don't want it in my life anymore."
And then wait to see what happens. He will hopefully see that D is nothing but drama and will fade him out. But he might not. The most important thing you can do is excise D from your own life in every way possible. He's not worth your mental energy.
posted by sockermom at 12:29 PM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
will also not put himself in a situation where D could conceivably accuse him of being a bad friend.
This really sticks out to me. It sounds like your boyfriend is so freaked out by possibly hurting his friend's feelings that he has become a total doormat! Is this the case in other parts of his life as well? Is he path-of-least-resistance guy? Or is it just a blind spot where this one guy is concerned?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:31 PM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
This really sticks out to me. It sounds like your boyfriend is so freaked out by possibly hurting his friend's feelings that he has become a total doormat! Is this the case in other parts of his life as well? Is he path-of-least-resistance guy? Or is it just a blind spot where this one guy is concerned?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:31 PM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
You should also tell the other girlfriend exactly how many times she had been cheated on, and how your BF participated. She may be a drama llama, but she is a fellow human being who has a child to care for and does not not not deserve an entire group of people lying to her -- which is what you are all doing right now.
That poor woman. Let her know so she can protect her health, her heart, her child, and hopefully, she can grow up some, herself.
You're like a frog boiling in water. There is nothing "lovely" about the situation this guy you date and trust has led you into. I don't know what is wrong with this friend circle, but holy shit is it toxic. Don't agree to be a liar, even by keeping quiet.
posted by jbenben at 12:32 PM on March 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
That poor woman. Let her know so she can protect her health, her heart, her child, and hopefully, she can grow up some, herself.
You're like a frog boiling in water. There is nothing "lovely" about the situation this guy you date and trust has led you into. I don't know what is wrong with this friend circle, but holy shit is it toxic. Don't agree to be a liar, even by keeping quiet.
posted by jbenben at 12:32 PM on March 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
PS - Not going to stuff doesn't make you a "bitchy girlfriend." If you set boundaries in a clear and kind way it is not mean or "bitchy." It just is. Boundaries are hard to set because they can make us feel like "bad guys" - you're saying "no" and no one wants to hear "no"! But it is possible to say "thanks but no thanks, that's too much drama for me," and not be "the bitchy girlfriend."
Do you have friends outside of this group? If not, might be a good time to start cultivating friendships outside of the group you share with your boyfriend.
I just want to repeat this for emphasis: boundaries do not make you a bitch.
posted by sockermom at 12:36 PM on March 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
Do you have friends outside of this group? If not, might be a good time to start cultivating friendships outside of the group you share with your boyfriend.
I just want to repeat this for emphasis: boundaries do not make you a bitch.
posted by sockermom at 12:36 PM on March 17, 2015 [24 favorites]
The wingman aspect here turns it from a sort of passive guy being loyal to his friend to happy participant in and prime supporter of infidelity.
I haven't been on the bar scene in a wee while; does the role of wingman still entail hitting on women to lure them to your bro, or half-heartedly hitting on the "less desirable" woman to try to direct the "hotter" one to your bro? If so, that would cross a line in my relationship.
The voice in your head calling you bitchy for caring about other humans and holding adults to reasonable standards is lying.
posted by kapers at 12:37 PM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I haven't been on the bar scene in a wee while; does the role of wingman still entail hitting on women to lure them to your bro, or half-heartedly hitting on the "less desirable" woman to try to direct the "hotter" one to your bro? If so, that would cross a line in my relationship.
The voice in your head calling you bitchy for caring about other humans and holding adults to reasonable standards is lying.
posted by kapers at 12:37 PM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I feel like you are being pretty harsh on the 'A'. You know when I was needy and clingy? ONLY when I was getting the run-around like she is.
She's clingy but he's cheating and likable?
It makes me uncomfortable that you mention twice that she is a single mom. It feels judge-y.
The two in the wrong seem like your boyfriend and 'D'. You can't change either of them, and why try? It is who they are.
posted by beccaj at 12:40 PM on March 17, 2015 [38 favorites]
She's clingy but he's cheating and likable?
It makes me uncomfortable that you mention twice that she is a single mom. It feels judge-y.
The two in the wrong seem like your boyfriend and 'D'. You can't change either of them, and why try? It is who they are.
posted by beccaj at 12:40 PM on March 17, 2015 [38 favorites]
Funny how A is cast as the needy, clingy, whiny, annoying bitch but her cheating boyfriend is likable. Funny how you cast yourself as the bitchy girlfriend and your boyfriend as Mr. Wonderful. When it seems like Mssrs. Likable and Wonderful are the ones acting horribly here.
posted by kapers at 12:45 PM on March 17, 2015 [66 favorites]
posted by kapers at 12:45 PM on March 17, 2015 [66 favorites]
There's two things for me here: I was most clingy when a past girlfriend was acting kind of suspicious. Turns out my fears were well founded! Second, this controlling-of-friends business is "Gift of Fear" territory.
posted by rhizome at 12:50 PM on March 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:50 PM on March 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Who people choose as their friends says a lot about them. I learned a long time ago that the "nice guy" or "nice girl" in a friendship group of jerks is usually either (a) too insecure to call the jerks out on their behavior (b) secretly a jerk, just not as upfront about it. Both dealbreakers for me.
You're not being a bitchy girlfriend if you are expressing your dislike and disapproval of your boyfriend actively helping someone else cheat on his girlfriend. Ew. Maybe if he was 17 and didn't know better, but he's 33?! What?!
There is honoring a long-held friendship and there is aiding gross behavior. If your boyfriend doesn't know the difference at 33 and gets defensive when you call him on it, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your own relationship with him. Mature adults don't act the way your boyfriend and his best friend act. I sense a lot of casual misogyny in this social group that your boyfriend seems to be fine with even if he doesn't outwardly act it out to you. Do you want to be with a mature adult or do you want to be constantly apologizing and second-guessing your (on-point) instincts?
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 12:55 PM on March 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
You're not being a bitchy girlfriend if you are expressing your dislike and disapproval of your boyfriend actively helping someone else cheat on his girlfriend. Ew. Maybe if he was 17 and didn't know better, but he's 33?! What?!
There is honoring a long-held friendship and there is aiding gross behavior. If your boyfriend doesn't know the difference at 33 and gets defensive when you call him on it, it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your own relationship with him. Mature adults don't act the way your boyfriend and his best friend act. I sense a lot of casual misogyny in this social group that your boyfriend seems to be fine with even if he doesn't outwardly act it out to you. Do you want to be with a mature adult or do you want to be constantly apologizing and second-guessing your (on-point) instincts?
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 12:55 PM on March 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
It really sticks out to me that D has been cheating on A with all and sundry for years, as enabled by your boyfriend, but A is the only one who gets assigned the role of "Is. Drama." -- in addition to needy, clingy, whiny, and annoying, not to mention a lousy drunk -- while D (noted lothario that he is) still manages to eke out the assignation of "otherwise very likable person."
Something to consider: You know what sort of situation might make a person behave in a way that outside spectators would observe as decidedly capital-D Drama-filled? If she's a single mom whose boyfriend has been messing around on her behind her back for years with no end in sight, she knows, and she feels helpless to stop it because her daughter adores said boyfriend and would be devastated by his sudden absence. I'm not saying that has to be what's going on here, but no matter what you do about your boyfriend, both of you need to start giving A a whole lot more credit while giving D a whole lot less.
Speaking from experience, it's important to keep in mind that a dude who actively participates in covering up another person's infidelity and gets defensive when you try to call him out on it ("why can't you just trust me?!") is classic misdirection. Also, the idea that being partnered with someone for a really long time ("long enough") is supposed to be some kind of self-evident inoculation against being cheated on is... let's say, not very well supported by evidence.
I'd advise being brutally honest with yourself, and admitting that you honestly have no idea what kind of nonsense your boyfriend really gets up to when he's with D. Both your boyfriend and D are grown-ass adults, but instead of being the kind of adults who know better, they've decided to be the kind of adults who are ready, willing, and able to shamelessly emit bold-faced lies specifically in order to cover up infidelity. Thinking you're immune to being on the receiving end of their heinous behavior has left you rather vulnerable to the behavior you so despise. You don't need to spend time with D or A at any time for any reason, but you might have a lot more in common with A than you know.
posted by divined by radio at 1:02 PM on March 17, 2015 [48 favorites]
Something to consider: You know what sort of situation might make a person behave in a way that outside spectators would observe as decidedly capital-D Drama-filled? If she's a single mom whose boyfriend has been messing around on her behind her back for years with no end in sight, she knows, and she feels helpless to stop it because her daughter adores said boyfriend and would be devastated by his sudden absence. I'm not saying that has to be what's going on here, but no matter what you do about your boyfriend, both of you need to start giving A a whole lot more credit while giving D a whole lot less.
Speaking from experience, it's important to keep in mind that a dude who actively participates in covering up another person's infidelity and gets defensive when you try to call him out on it ("why can't you just trust me?!") is classic misdirection. Also, the idea that being partnered with someone for a really long time ("long enough") is supposed to be some kind of self-evident inoculation against being cheated on is... let's say, not very well supported by evidence.
I'd advise being brutally honest with yourself, and admitting that you honestly have no idea what kind of nonsense your boyfriend really gets up to when he's with D. Both your boyfriend and D are grown-ass adults, but instead of being the kind of adults who know better, they've decided to be the kind of adults who are ready, willing, and able to shamelessly emit bold-faced lies specifically in order to cover up infidelity. Thinking you're immune to being on the receiving end of their heinous behavior has left you rather vulnerable to the behavior you so despise. You don't need to spend time with D or A at any time for any reason, but you might have a lot more in common with A than you know.
posted by divined by radio at 1:02 PM on March 17, 2015 [48 favorites]
I think I would try and let it go given your update. It sounds like your boyfriend is conflicted about this, but is planning to not do the wingman thing again in the future (which I see as the biggest issue here). Although I haven't been in this exact situation, I have certainly been in situations where a friend was making choices that I personally considered to be not-so-cool, and still chosen to remain friends with them and support them/have their back. In one case, I did end up deciding to support a friend who acted less-than-awesomely in the break-up of her marriage, and while I did call her out on her behavior, I also decided that while her decisions weren't 100% awesome, neither were those of her ex-husband, and he had his own friends to have his back. She really needed someone to be on her team and give some unconditional love even if she had made some mistakes. Especially given our long history together, I felt like I could get over the fact that she made some poor decisions. ANYWAY, long story short, I feel like I can sympahtize with your boyfriend somewhat, in terms of feeling loyalty and friendship toward someone who is imperfect and flawed, and sometimes not knowing "how far is too far" in supporting that person. It does sound like he has a better idea of that now, which is a good thing.
Now, that's your boyfriend. I don't think you have any obligation to hang out with these folks if it's not your thing. While I think it is generally a bad idea to try and police your significant others' friendships, I also think YOU have total control over YOUR friendships. Couples don't automatically have to adopt all of their partners' friends. It's cool when it works out, but it's not always going to and that's ok. In your position, I think I'd say -- "Look, I'm not going to interfere here and you should remain friends with this person if that's what you want to do. But, I end up feeling uncomfortable and put in the middle of drama when I hang out with them, so for now I'm going to pass on group events." I mean, if your boyfriend were single, he'd still hang out with his friends, right? So he is perfectly well capable of doing so while you have a girls night with your friends, or watch The Mindy Project, or whatever it is you want to do! Just as I think you shouldn't pressure him to drop this friend, he shouldn't pressure you to participate in group outings.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:03 PM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Now, that's your boyfriend. I don't think you have any obligation to hang out with these folks if it's not your thing. While I think it is generally a bad idea to try and police your significant others' friendships, I also think YOU have total control over YOUR friendships. Couples don't automatically have to adopt all of their partners' friends. It's cool when it works out, but it's not always going to and that's ok. In your position, I think I'd say -- "Look, I'm not going to interfere here and you should remain friends with this person if that's what you want to do. But, I end up feeling uncomfortable and put in the middle of drama when I hang out with them, so for now I'm going to pass on group events." I mean, if your boyfriend were single, he'd still hang out with his friends, right? So he is perfectly well capable of doing so while you have a girls night with your friends, or watch The Mindy Project, or whatever it is you want to do! Just as I think you shouldn't pressure him to drop this friend, he shouldn't pressure you to participate in group outings.
posted by rainbowbrite at 1:03 PM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, "live and let live" does not mean what your boyfriend thinks it means.
If that guy was really your boyfriend's friend, he wouldn't ask him to cover him for his shitty behavior.
And since it DOES (obviously) impact you, you should have a say in this.
Both of these guys need to grow up. Explain this to your boyfriend clearly. He obviously needs to hear it.
posted by PsuDab93 at 1:06 PM on March 17, 2015
If that guy was really your boyfriend's friend, he wouldn't ask him to cover him for his shitty behavior.
And since it DOES (obviously) impact you, you should have a say in this.
Both of these guys need to grow up. Explain this to your boyfriend clearly. He obviously needs to hear it.
posted by PsuDab93 at 1:06 PM on March 17, 2015
I do not approve of D's behavior or your boyfriend's enabling of it. It is very distasteful. However, I am also a member of the "friends help you bury bodies" school. YMMV in this regard. Also, you might ask yourself if you would never want your boyfriend to lie or "cover" for you to save you from trouble. I'll be a liar for my wife, or at least, not rat her out. You may wish to think on what degree, if any, you'd be comfortable with that in your own relationship.
FWIW, your update indicates that he also finds D's behavior very distasteful and that he has separated himself from it. While that does not erase the past, I think it is a good reflection on your boyfriend.
posted by Tanizaki at 1:07 PM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
FWIW, your update indicates that he also finds D's behavior very distasteful and that he has separated himself from it. While that does not erase the past, I think it is a good reflection on your boyfriend.
posted by Tanizaki at 1:07 PM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I too think there's a difference between turning a blind eye to a friend's bad decisions and actively participating in them like your boyfriend is doing. I also think there's a huge difference between a friend situation and a friend-and-roommate situation. If your boyfriend is choosing to live with and spend a lot of time with D, that would be a serious red flag for me. On the other hand, if he's somehow obligated to D for this living arrangement, depending on him for housing and afraid to start a fight with him for that reason, that could be a hint that there's hope. (Or a hint that your boyfriend is really immature, depending on the circumstances.) If he's working on moving out so he can be around D's drama less often, and talks about moving in with you or another roommate or living alone (and means it) that might make this less sketchy.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 1:18 PM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DestinationUnknown at 1:18 PM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
ok so you aren't wrong to feel the way to do, but based on the presented example I don't think you're necessarily right either.
1. D is sleazy, but his place with your boyfriend is his home and your boyfriend can't really tell him to not bring home any females that aren't his girlfriend and him saying something while they are there would casue....drama and make your boyfriend look like the drama starter.
2. As for the bar scene with D, A, and H, I think your boyfriend prevented a drunken SCENE from happening in a public place, the shame of which would then be associated withteh whole group attending the party. Crisis averted.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:28 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
1. D is sleazy, but his place with your boyfriend is his home and your boyfriend can't really tell him to not bring home any females that aren't his girlfriend and him saying something while they are there would casue....drama and make your boyfriend look like the drama starter.
2. As for the bar scene with D, A, and H, I think your boyfriend prevented a drunken SCENE from happening in a public place, the shame of which would then be associated withteh whole group attending the party. Crisis averted.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:28 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Odds are, your boyfriend is no more honest than his friend is, and it's only a matter of time before you find out that hiding his friend's shenanigans is also what enables him to hide his own.
posted by stormyteal at 2:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by stormyteal at 2:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Best answer: My 2 cents: Your bf is immature. Immature people tend to have immature friends. (Because what mature person wants to hang out with an immature person?) Immature people can be very loyal, the two are not mutually exclusive. Loyal immature people can be easily manipulated by their not so loyal immature friends who play on that deep down desire to be loyal. ("You got my back, bro? Come on, I need you man. Aren't I always there for you?" ad nauseum) There was a recent post on here about someone's bf who was being manipulated by his friend in similar circumstances and the gf was caught in between.
AFAIC, loyalty in itself is a meaningless character trait when it comes to the question of, Do I want to put my trust in this person? People are loyal to some pretty reprehensible behavior all the time. (Hitler anyone?)
All that said, you could change him if you want to put in the elbow grease, turn him in to a mature man with his loyalties in the right place. Happens all the time, too.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 2:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
AFAIC, loyalty in itself is a meaningless character trait when it comes to the question of, Do I want to put my trust in this person? People are loyal to some pretty reprehensible behavior all the time. (Hitler anyone?)
All that said, you could change him if you want to put in the elbow grease, turn him in to a mature man with his loyalties in the right place. Happens all the time, too.
posted by lillian.elmtree at 2:14 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your input. This has really strengthened my resolve to let my boyfriend know that these friends are not my kind of people, and that if distancing myself from them is unacceptable to him, then I will (sadly) have to walk away from our relationship. That said, we've all (myself and my friends included) done unsavory things in relationships, and I'm going to - knowing who he is - give him the benefit of the doubt by not extrapolating D's attitudes and behavior on him.
If I seem unsympathetic to A, it is because I have very little respect for her (about as little as I have for D). I didn't mention this because it seemed irrelevant, but she is a single mom because she cheated on her ex-husband (not with D). She's also slept around with other men while seeing D. A is bisexual and has this weird notion that sleeping with other women can't be considered 'cheating'. On more than one occasion, she's caught D out but still chooses to be with him, and this is clearly not because of her daughter. It is because she does not want to be alone, and that is what keeps D with her as well. They are each other's crutches.
Take-home for me here is this: this group of people is just... yuck. Being around them sometimes makes me want to go home and shower. I have plenty of my own friends and rarely hang with this group, so breaking away from them is not an issue. This is more that I don't want my boyfriend around these people - he has other friends that do not behave this way but they live further away so we don't see them as much.
Your input really has been invaluable in putting things in perspective for me - thank you!
posted by Everydayville at 2:26 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
If I seem unsympathetic to A, it is because I have very little respect for her (about as little as I have for D). I didn't mention this because it seemed irrelevant, but she is a single mom because she cheated on her ex-husband (not with D). She's also slept around with other men while seeing D. A is bisexual and has this weird notion that sleeping with other women can't be considered 'cheating'. On more than one occasion, she's caught D out but still chooses to be with him, and this is clearly not because of her daughter. It is because she does not want to be alone, and that is what keeps D with her as well. They are each other's crutches.
Take-home for me here is this: this group of people is just... yuck. Being around them sometimes makes me want to go home and shower. I have plenty of my own friends and rarely hang with this group, so breaking away from them is not an issue. This is more that I don't want my boyfriend around these people - he has other friends that do not behave this way but they live further away so we don't see them as much.
Your input really has been invaluable in putting things in perspective for me - thank you!
posted by Everydayville at 2:26 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Also, as recommended upthread - I don't think it's my responsibility to let A know what D is doing. She is aware of his transgressions, and is an adult who needs to come to terms with her own choices, preferably with professional help.
Drama is something I do not need in my life, and I don't intend to get involved with D or A any more than a polite hello if I run into them. Fortunately, my boyfriend spends most of his time at my place anyway, so I'm saved the trouble of interacting with them!
posted by Everydayville at 2:30 PM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Drama is something I do not need in my life, and I don't intend to get involved with D or A any more than a polite hello if I run into them. Fortunately, my boyfriend spends most of his time at my place anyway, so I'm saved the trouble of interacting with them!
posted by Everydayville at 2:30 PM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
You cannot control your boyfriend's actions, nor should you. His actions have crossed an ethical line that you would not cross. That may not be a deal breaker in your eyes. But when he makes you an accomplice he's asking you to share his version of ethical behavior. You may choose to draw the line at not actively confronting D or his girlfriend. But if you participate in an activity where you witness the lies your boyfriend tells, then you are in fact participating in the lie. You are an accomplice. If you choose to do this you have several options. One way to handle it would be to tell boyfriend that you won't go with him to activities that put you in the position of being an accomplice to D's lies. You may further state that if A asks you a question you will answer it truthfully.
By the way, you might interpret A's actions from the standpoint of her trying to rationalize her love for D in spite of his trashy behavior. Perhaps she is a drama queen, but even drama queens can be worth some sympathy. The child adores him, which in this case is a shame, not the blessing it might be if D weren't such an asshole. Desperation makes us fools.
My uncharitable view of your boyfriend's version of loyalty is that it's basically bullshit. I wouldn't try to get him to make a choice between me and his friend. I would dump him because he doesn't see anything wrong with the situation he abets.
posted by mule98J at 3:31 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
By the way, you might interpret A's actions from the standpoint of her trying to rationalize her love for D in spite of his trashy behavior. Perhaps she is a drama queen, but even drama queens can be worth some sympathy. The child adores him, which in this case is a shame, not the blessing it might be if D weren't such an asshole. Desperation makes us fools.
My uncharitable view of your boyfriend's version of loyalty is that it's basically bullshit. I wouldn't try to get him to make a choice between me and his friend. I would dump him because he doesn't see anything wrong with the situation he abets.
posted by mule98J at 3:31 PM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
How do I make him understand that mature, stable adults don't get caught up in this kind of drama and that it makes me dislike his friends?
To be honest, I think you have a really uncharitable view of your boyfriend, and it makes me wonder if there's other relationship problems going on. It seems like you're really not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I have been your boyfriend (except, as a woman). One of my closest friends was involved in a crazy, drama filled relationship with a single mom. Except it wasn't just crazy and dramafilled, it was abusive. We all wished like fuck he would just get the shit out of that relationship. We had heart to hearts about it. But he couldn't, in part due to some traumatic circumstances previously.
Did I help him lie to his equivalent of A? Sure as shit I did, with a smile on my face, because A was batshit crazy and would actively try to ruin his life whenever she caught him cheating, or anything A thought of as cheating. I didn't view it as 'covering for a cheater', I viewed it as 'protecting my best friend from abuse.'
Was I his wingman? No. But you know what, I would have been if he'd asked, because I, like most of his friends, were desperate for him to just meet some nice girl that would help provide the impetus for him to break up with that abusive bitch.
Was he a mature, stable guy? No. But you don't make friends with people based on their stability. You make friends with people when you're in your unstable twenties, and then some people grow up and others don't. You don't dump your friends just because they are slower than you in growing up, any more than you dump your friends for being slower at reading or math.
posted by corb at 3:58 PM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
To be honest, I think you have a really uncharitable view of your boyfriend, and it makes me wonder if there's other relationship problems going on. It seems like you're really not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I have been your boyfriend (except, as a woman). One of my closest friends was involved in a crazy, drama filled relationship with a single mom. Except it wasn't just crazy and dramafilled, it was abusive. We all wished like fuck he would just get the shit out of that relationship. We had heart to hearts about it. But he couldn't, in part due to some traumatic circumstances previously.
Did I help him lie to his equivalent of A? Sure as shit I did, with a smile on my face, because A was batshit crazy and would actively try to ruin his life whenever she caught him cheating, or anything A thought of as cheating. I didn't view it as 'covering for a cheater', I viewed it as 'protecting my best friend from abuse.'
Was I his wingman? No. But you know what, I would have been if he'd asked, because I, like most of his friends, were desperate for him to just meet some nice girl that would help provide the impetus for him to break up with that abusive bitch.
Was he a mature, stable guy? No. But you don't make friends with people based on their stability. You make friends with people when you're in your unstable twenties, and then some people grow up and others don't. You don't dump your friends just because they are slower than you in growing up, any more than you dump your friends for being slower at reading or math.
posted by corb at 3:58 PM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Best answer: The real solution here, and you can't force this or make this happen, is for your boyfriend to move out. Not necessarily move in with you, but get his own place or different roommate(s).
I think only one person has mentioned it above, but i'm sympathetic to two points of what he's been doing here.
Firstly, it's really hard to call out or just allow the curtain to fall down on your roommate. That is basically declaring war and dropping a nuclear drama bomb, and then having to deal with the fallout. What i'm not clear on here is how involved he is in covering for his friend. The answer so far basically just seems to be "involved".
Saying "I don't know" or just going "oh they're over there" or something is not always a neutral act either. Sometimes either your inaction creates drama, or your lie creates other drama with slightly more stability. And it's hard to untangle yourself from this no win situation when you're living with the person. Allow things to blow up through inaction will get blamed on you and create bullshit at home.
It's pretty easy to get fairly deep in to this hole even if you are a relatively stable, mature person just through not wanting to let shit blow up and then bam, you're part of the lie. People will probably disagree with me here, but it's easy to armchair admiral when you haven't been in a situation like this where you were literally living with the person.
On preview, everything corb said about just wanting him to meet someone else and break up already is also spot on and was basically my second point. I've been the roommate+friend in this sort of situation and me and all his other friends(AND most of her friends!) really really desperately just wanted one of them to find someone else and move so it would just end already. And at times that included lying, giving him rides home with some other lady after dates in the middle of the night when i was going the opposite direction, etc.
I, unlike a lot of others here, are willing to believe you when you say your boyfriend is a good guy. I just think he's up to his eyeballs in a septic tank of a situation that he can't really disengage from, or let crash and burn without creating a ton of drama for himself because he lives with this guy(and probably essentially lives with A as well).
The only way this will improve, or he'll disentangle himself and be able to stop covering without consequences is if he moves out.
Now, if he moves out and keeps doing this when he has a lot less skin in the game, i think a lot of what was said here would ring a lot more true. But i really think a lot of people are disregarding how much of a big part of this is living with the person. Lede is getting buried, there. I really don't think he's a lying sack of shit or anything. Just probably a bit conflict averse and wanting to calm things down when he sees a huge storm on the horizon, and i can relate to that, honestly.
It's not like A doesn't know D is cheating, or isn't a cheater herself. This isn't so much your boyfriend helping D bury the body, because she knows about the bodies. It's just trying to stop everything from being a gigantic screaming match drama fest at home, and in public all the time. And while that can be misguided or gross, the motivation isn't really the same and i find it a lot more legit and relatable.
OH and to be clear, i don't think you're wrong to feel uncomfortable with this. It is bullshit, even if it's not coming from as awful of a place as some people here seem to attribute it. It's unhealthy, and your boyfriend absolutely needs to disconnect from this crap. I just don't buy in to the "oh he's a terrible person and just as much of a liar as his friend" stuff.
And jesus, for how conflict averse mefi tends to skew, someone trying to prevent drama and conflict from constantly being a facepalm shitstorm is treated as worse than the criminal, ugh.
posted by emptythought at 4:10 PM on March 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think only one person has mentioned it above, but i'm sympathetic to two points of what he's been doing here.
Firstly, it's really hard to call out or just allow the curtain to fall down on your roommate. That is basically declaring war and dropping a nuclear drama bomb, and then having to deal with the fallout. What i'm not clear on here is how involved he is in covering for his friend. The answer so far basically just seems to be "involved".
Saying "I don't know" or just going "oh they're over there" or something is not always a neutral act either. Sometimes either your inaction creates drama, or your lie creates other drama with slightly more stability. And it's hard to untangle yourself from this no win situation when you're living with the person. Allow things to blow up through inaction will get blamed on you and create bullshit at home.
It's pretty easy to get fairly deep in to this hole even if you are a relatively stable, mature person just through not wanting to let shit blow up and then bam, you're part of the lie. People will probably disagree with me here, but it's easy to armchair admiral when you haven't been in a situation like this where you were literally living with the person.
On preview, everything corb said about just wanting him to meet someone else and break up already is also spot on and was basically my second point. I've been the roommate+friend in this sort of situation and me and all his other friends(AND most of her friends!) really really desperately just wanted one of them to find someone else and move so it would just end already. And at times that included lying, giving him rides home with some other lady after dates in the middle of the night when i was going the opposite direction, etc.
I, unlike a lot of others here, are willing to believe you when you say your boyfriend is a good guy. I just think he's up to his eyeballs in a septic tank of a situation that he can't really disengage from, or let crash and burn without creating a ton of drama for himself because he lives with this guy(and probably essentially lives with A as well).
The only way this will improve, or he'll disentangle himself and be able to stop covering without consequences is if he moves out.
Now, if he moves out and keeps doing this when he has a lot less skin in the game, i think a lot of what was said here would ring a lot more true. But i really think a lot of people are disregarding how much of a big part of this is living with the person. Lede is getting buried, there. I really don't think he's a lying sack of shit or anything. Just probably a bit conflict averse and wanting to calm things down when he sees a huge storm on the horizon, and i can relate to that, honestly.
It's not like A doesn't know D is cheating, or isn't a cheater herself. This isn't so much your boyfriend helping D bury the body, because she knows about the bodies. It's just trying to stop everything from being a gigantic screaming match drama fest at home, and in public all the time. And while that can be misguided or gross, the motivation isn't really the same and i find it a lot more legit and relatable.
OH and to be clear, i don't think you're wrong to feel uncomfortable with this. It is bullshit, even if it's not coming from as awful of a place as some people here seem to attribute it. It's unhealthy, and your boyfriend absolutely needs to disconnect from this crap. I just don't buy in to the "oh he's a terrible person and just as much of a liar as his friend" stuff.
And jesus, for how conflict averse mefi tends to skew, someone trying to prevent drama and conflict from constantly being a facepalm shitstorm is treated as worse than the criminal, ugh.
posted by emptythought at 4:10 PM on March 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
Here's the previous post I mentioned. I was wrong, it wasn't a gf caught in the middle. This would be similar to your bf caught in the middle of A and D, told from your bf's perspective.
Great decision, btw. Good luck!
posted by lillian.elmtree at 4:12 PM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Great decision, btw. Good luck!
posted by lillian.elmtree at 4:12 PM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also think this post, from a thread linked in that thread, is a good one on this sort of thing.
There's a shoot the messenger aspect to calling this sort of thing out, and intertia builds and builds against doing so. As i mentioned above, you get further and further in to the lie just by not paddling against the stream. I already pretty much covered that, though.
posted by emptythought at 5:21 PM on March 17, 2015
There's a shoot the messenger aspect to calling this sort of thing out, and intertia builds and builds against doing so. As i mentioned above, you get further and further in to the lie just by not paddling against the stream. I already pretty much covered that, though.
posted by emptythought at 5:21 PM on March 17, 2015
It doesn't matter what his friends are like. You aren't required to be their friends or to hang out with them. You are not required to be sympathetic to them or to approve of their behavior. You are not allowed to choose his roommates or friends or to limit his seeing the people he does choose as friends.
That said you are allowed to choose the type of boyfriend you want to have. Do you want someone who turns a blind eye to other men cheating on women they're in a relationship with? Or someone you know will lie repeatedly to other people? Or someone who prefers to place himself in the middle of other people's sexually dramatic behavior? Do you really want a boyfriend that age 33 prefers to repeatedly hang out with ill-behaved people in situations where there's alcohol involved? Do you want to be with someone that insists that you go with him when he knows you hate being with certain people? Does he have any friends you'd find worthwhile hanging out with? Do all his friends have to pass consensus on each other's behavior?
You've told me what a great guy he is, but I wouldn't particularly care to meet him, or his friends, because he sounds like a jerk.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:06 PM on March 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
That said you are allowed to choose the type of boyfriend you want to have. Do you want someone who turns a blind eye to other men cheating on women they're in a relationship with? Or someone you know will lie repeatedly to other people? Or someone who prefers to place himself in the middle of other people's sexually dramatic behavior? Do you really want a boyfriend that age 33 prefers to repeatedly hang out with ill-behaved people in situations where there's alcohol involved? Do you want to be with someone that insists that you go with him when he knows you hate being with certain people? Does he have any friends you'd find worthwhile hanging out with? Do all his friends have to pass consensus on each other's behavior?
You've told me what a great guy he is, but I wouldn't particularly care to meet him, or his friends, because he sounds like a jerk.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:06 PM on March 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Your update changes things a little. So A is a cheater herself, and A is aware that D has cheated on her in the past. That makes this less "sweet innocent loving girlfriend has no idea that cad sleeps around on her" to me. It sounds waaaaaaay more to me like she's decided "don't ask don't tell" with regards to his transgressions is the way to go and the price for having a semi-stable relationship with him. Yeah, maybe she occasionally blows up at him, he promises to change, or whatever, but realistically? She'll make a fuss but ultimately put up with it. At least, that's really what it sounds like. Yes, from a health standpoint she should know who else he is sleeping with, but she probably already halfway knows. And D is probably in the relationship with her in part because she allows him his side shenanigans. Really what it sounds more like is a quasi-open, quasi-polyamorous relationship on both sides. With really poor handling of occasional fits of jealously. They should just openly admit it and work on ground rules.
All of that said, that still leaves the issue of you not liking your boyfriend's friends. I think that's fine. You shouldn't feel pressured to like them. But I also agree with those who say realistically, as long as they are living together, your boyfriend isn't going to make waves because making enemies with one's roommate really, really sucks.
posted by quincunx at 8:11 PM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
All of that said, that still leaves the issue of you not liking your boyfriend's friends. I think that's fine. You shouldn't feel pressured to like them. But I also agree with those who say realistically, as long as they are living together, your boyfriend isn't going to make waves because making enemies with one's roommate really, really sucks.
posted by quincunx at 8:11 PM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by josher71 at 11:57 AM on March 17, 2015 [11 favorites]