Close friends of the opposite sex - both happily married?
December 27, 2014 8:54 AM Subscribe
If you are/were in a happy monogamous relationship and developed a close, 100% platonic totally public friendship with someone of the opposite sex also in a happily monogamous relationship, how did you manage this?
How did the relationship differ from your same-sex friendships, if it did? Degree of difficulty: small town, everybody knows everybody, lots of incidental contact between all four parties, especially the two principals due to shared social activities.
How did the relationship differ from your same-sex friendships, if it did? Degree of difficulty: small town, everybody knows everybody, lots of incidental contact between all four parties, especially the two principals due to shared social activities.
I was in a similar position a few years ago and I had to make a concious decision to take a step back. Even if "I don't care what anyone says" could apply here, the truth is that a married person having an intimate friendship with someone of the opposite sex could have many dangers. Developing romantic feelings for them is just one, but also that your SO could get jealous, or their SO, also people could gossip and while it might not matter in the bigger sense, it does matter that people could think you are cheating on your spouses (might hurt them more than you), etc etc etc.
I always have my mom's words in the back of my mind, when we were young she would tell my sisters and me "don't do good things that look like bad things", with my own addendum that they might possibly turn into bad things and you didn't even notice. Of course that was meant for our teenager selves, but it still applies in stuations like these.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:33 AM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I always have my mom's words in the back of my mind, when we were young she would tell my sisters and me "don't do good things that look like bad things", with my own addendum that they might possibly turn into bad things and you didn't even notice. Of course that was meant for our teenager selves, but it still applies in stuations like these.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:33 AM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
You handle it by being publicly 100% committed to your romantic relationship and carry on with each other as you would a 100% platonic friendship. If anyone would give you the side-eye or make comments, make it very clear to that person that you don't appreciate any interpretation of your friendship as anything but platonic and you won't tolerate any insinuation otherwise.
What it really comes down to is how the four of you handle it. It's not easy to maintain a close friendship with a person of the opposite sex when you are both in committed relationships. There's something about having a "girls night" that is sacred or a "girls weekend" where you can get away but it doesn't really work to have an "opposite sex friend night" or weekend getaway. It is, by its nature, a different type of friendship. As long as you embrace the limitations and operate on the up-and-up, it can work.
posted by amanda at 9:36 AM on December 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
What it really comes down to is how the four of you handle it. It's not easy to maintain a close friendship with a person of the opposite sex when you are both in committed relationships. There's something about having a "girls night" that is sacred or a "girls weekend" where you can get away but it doesn't really work to have an "opposite sex friend night" or weekend getaway. It is, by its nature, a different type of friendship. As long as you embrace the limitations and operate on the up-and-up, it can work.
posted by amanda at 9:36 AM on December 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
With both pairs in a happy relationship, it's kind of a no-brainer. But it seems a little curious if by 'principals' you mean yourself and your opposite-sex friend. Like Ruthless Bunny, I wonder if there may be a little more to this than you're saying.
posted by tomboko at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2014
posted by tomboko at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2014
If it's a close 100% platonic totally public friendship, what are you worried about? Why does incidental contact between all four parties matter?
The real answer is "that doesn't generally happen/succeed". Y'all can be couple-friends, and if the two of you work together you can be work friends and lunch buddies, but do not become "work spouses". If you're going to have a fully public friendship, you should avoid any "secret" communication, and that includes texting beyond "Lunch Thursday?" or using self-destructing chat/messaging platforms. You can never ever have a conversation that could not be read by your respective spouses unless it's about a surprise party for them. (And that's not about being caught, it's about being pure in your intentions every single minute of the day.) All contact should be disclosed as a matter of course to spouses.
It's really hard and tends not to work out unless you have brutal boundaries and no intent or desire, not even in the secretest heart of hearts, to cross them. But still you'd be better off sticking to couplefriendship instead.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:42 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
The real answer is "that doesn't generally happen/succeed". Y'all can be couple-friends, and if the two of you work together you can be work friends and lunch buddies, but do not become "work spouses". If you're going to have a fully public friendship, you should avoid any "secret" communication, and that includes texting beyond "Lunch Thursday?" or using self-destructing chat/messaging platforms. You can never ever have a conversation that could not be read by your respective spouses unless it's about a surprise party for them. (And that's not about being caught, it's about being pure in your intentions every single minute of the day.) All contact should be disclosed as a matter of course to spouses.
It's really hard and tends not to work out unless you have brutal boundaries and no intent or desire, not even in the secretest heart of hearts, to cross them. But still you'd be better off sticking to couplefriendship instead.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:42 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm a woman whose close, currently live-in friend is a man in a monogamous long-term, and currently long-distance relationship with a woman. His partner and I have become good friends over the years we've known each other as well. Some things we don't do: talk about their relationship or talk about sex. You might have more or less or different boundaries depending on what you and your spouses are comfortable with.
posted by wrabbit at 9:49 AM on December 27, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by wrabbit at 9:49 AM on December 27, 2014 [7 favorites]
Are we assuming everyone is straight here? Because I gotta say, my opposite-sex friendships work out pretty much like my same-sex ones. Right down, actually, to my currently engineering situations where my partner gets to hang out with my best (straight, male) friend--because they give every indication of enjoying hanging out with each other nearly as much as I enjoy spending time with my friend.
Speaking as a queer woman who isn't into men, mind you, but I behave exactly the way with my female friends.
posted by sciatrix at 9:57 AM on December 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
Speaking as a queer woman who isn't into men, mind you, but I behave exactly the way with my female friends.
posted by sciatrix at 9:57 AM on December 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
Well I've been married in a heterosexual marriage for 20 years and I'm bisexual. So if the rule were I could develop no deep friendships where sexual attraction is theoretically possible I would have no friends. Here are my guidelines:
1. The warning bell is when telling my spouse something significant comes after The impulse to share with a best friend. That means my spouse and I need to reconnect, which requires my energy.
2. In my marriage actually we're a bit monogamish but we are monogamous. It works for us. So I can have a boozy flirty night but clothes must stay on. The critical thing though is all three parties must be ok with this and honestly...that is a lot a lot a lot of work. My point here is not to be like me, but to know where all four of your boundaries sets are and help each other maintain them. If that means no flirting, touching, restaurants, role playing Borgias in love together then don't do that.
3. I personally don't care about appearances but I live in a big city and no one cares. I think though that this could fit into #2...what do all four of you want your public narrative to be? Is a best-friends lunch ok but not dinner? Figure that out, I think. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the gossips themselves; grow up already.
4. Everyone must be a friend to the marriages. This means genuinely respecting all the four people. It also means things like "have you told your wife that? She needs to hear." And "it's the holidays? Family time! See you in Jan!" And, if kids are involved, "let me babysit at my place so you and your husband can go have loud sexy fun times." It is a state of mind.
To put my answer in perspective, I take a trip a year with my best friend, without my spouse and kids. Some people really don't get it (it is clear I get giddy on her and she on me). My husband and her husband are fine with it. We see art, drink and revel fully clothed. We are also 100% friends to each others' marriages.
The rest of the world can be stupid. It helps them that she's a girl but still.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:57 AM on December 27, 2014 [20 favorites]
1. The warning bell is when telling my spouse something significant comes after The impulse to share with a best friend. That means my spouse and I need to reconnect, which requires my energy.
2. In my marriage actually we're a bit monogamish but we are monogamous. It works for us. So I can have a boozy flirty night but clothes must stay on. The critical thing though is all three parties must be ok with this and honestly...that is a lot a lot a lot of work. My point here is not to be like me, but to know where all four of your boundaries sets are and help each other maintain them. If that means no flirting, touching, restaurants, role playing Borgias in love together then don't do that.
3. I personally don't care about appearances but I live in a big city and no one cares. I think though that this could fit into #2...what do all four of you want your public narrative to be? Is a best-friends lunch ok but not dinner? Figure that out, I think. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the gossips themselves; grow up already.
4. Everyone must be a friend to the marriages. This means genuinely respecting all the four people. It also means things like "have you told your wife that? She needs to hear." And "it's the holidays? Family time! See you in Jan!" And, if kids are involved, "let me babysit at my place so you and your husband can go have loud sexy fun times." It is a state of mind.
To put my answer in perspective, I take a trip a year with my best friend, without my spouse and kids. Some people really don't get it (it is clear I get giddy on her and she on me). My husband and her husband are fine with it. We see art, drink and revel fully clothed. We are also 100% friends to each others' marriages.
The rest of the world can be stupid. It helps them that she's a girl but still.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:57 AM on December 27, 2014 [20 favorites]
The easiest thing to do to quell rumors - and it's your choice whether to even be concerned about rumors in the first place, because you can always just ignore people who gossip - would be to make sure that the two of you are seen socially together with one or both of your spouses. If both spouses are obviously, publicly okay with the friendship then it's a lot harder for people to justify thinking anything untoward is going on.
posted by capricorn at 9:58 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by capricorn at 9:58 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree with Ruthless Bunny and Tomboko that if the question is being asked that there is something up, but maybe not. I'm a straight guy and have become very good friends with a married lady who used to be my Spanish teacher. She is very attractive and at first I had dirty thoughts but I got to know her and her (not yet )husband and she fell into my friend zone.
What does get weird is what everybody else says. Friends tease me about trying to get with a married lady. People do seem to have the idea that opposite sex platonic friendship is not a real thing.
posted by Che boludo! at 10:01 AM on December 27, 2014
What does get weird is what everybody else says. Friends tease me about trying to get with a married lady. People do seem to have the idea that opposite sex platonic friendship is not a real thing.
posted by Che boludo! at 10:01 AM on December 27, 2014
Double dates! Double dates, double dates, double dates. Try to commit to one double date per every four times you hang out with your friend solo. Go out in public all together. Stop the gossip tree before it sets roots. Practice saying "We know we are lucky to have found another couple we get along with so well."
posted by juniperesque at 10:30 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by juniperesque at 10:30 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
You are 100% transparent with your partner about what goes on with the friends. If you're texting the other person and laugh, so that your partner notices, you say, "[Friend] made a joke about XYZ," even if your partner doesn't get the joke because s/he wasn't there the first time.
If you find that you don't really want to share it, that's a big old red flag.
My husband lost his former wife to an affair between her and the husband of a couple of mutual friends. It started after S, my husband's ex, started communicating and getting together with G, our other friend's husband, to talk about writing. Eventually G got super obvious and coy about her texting and emailing, saying, "Oh, I shouldn't show you this!"
As my husband put it, "I sat there and watched as they started an affair because I didn't want to seem like the jealous, uncool spouse."
So don't let it EVER get to that point. Be open about what you're doing and saying; answer any questions your partner has; recognize the danger zone if you find that you don't want to share some of these details.
posted by Madamina at 10:30 AM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you find that you don't really want to share it, that's a big old red flag.
My husband lost his former wife to an affair between her and the husband of a couple of mutual friends. It started after S, my husband's ex, started communicating and getting together with G, our other friend's husband, to talk about writing. Eventually G got super obvious and coy about her texting and emailing, saying, "Oh, I shouldn't show you this!"
As my husband put it, "I sat there and watched as they started an affair because I didn't want to seem like the jealous, uncool spouse."
So don't let it EVER get to that point. Be open about what you're doing and saying; answer any questions your partner has; recognize the danger zone if you find that you don't want to share some of these details.
posted by Madamina at 10:30 AM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
One of my best friends is a woman who's also friends with my fiancee and who used to date another one of our longtime friends… and it's pretty normal? I mean, the biggest difference is that I've seen most of my same-sex friends naked, like, at the gym or whatever, but we don't spend private naked time together. We also don't joke about fucking each other, like I do with same-sex friends. I guess I also don't do as much physical roughhousing as I do with same-sex friends either, but she's also much smaller than I am so it'd feel more like bullying to knock her around like I do some of my same-sex friends.
I dunno, most of the opposite-sex friends I have, I have because I get along with them as regular people; there's not a big gender divide in interests or anything.
posted by klangklangston at 10:52 AM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
I dunno, most of the opposite-sex friends I have, I have because I get along with them as regular people; there's not a big gender divide in interests or anything.
posted by klangklangston at 10:52 AM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
I know a lot of people find this strange, but I work in a majority-male field so most of my close friends are men (I am a woman), many of whom are married. It has never been an issue. I do think there are certain things I wouldn't do in these friendships that I would do with a close female friend (share a hotel room, change clothes in the same room, etc.) but beyond that I don't think there is any issue at all. I am clearly committed to my partner and they are to theirs, so...
I guess the question is, what do you think is going to happen? If you fear an affair, that probably means the relationship really isn't as platonic as you are claiming. I always say my male friends seem like brothers or cousins to me, and just as I wouldn't somehow accidentally have sex with my male cousin when we had too much to drink, the same is true of my close male friends. If they don't feel like a family member where a romantic relationship is essentially unthinkable, I think there are bigger issues brewing there.
posted by rainbowbrite at 11:17 AM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I guess the question is, what do you think is going to happen? If you fear an affair, that probably means the relationship really isn't as platonic as you are claiming. I always say my male friends seem like brothers or cousins to me, and just as I wouldn't somehow accidentally have sex with my male cousin when we had too much to drink, the same is true of my close male friends. If they don't feel like a family member where a romantic relationship is essentially unthinkable, I think there are bigger issues brewing there.
posted by rainbowbrite at 11:17 AM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I had a long-term friendship with the best friend of my sig other (both male). He was significantly younger than me, but we connected in a friendly, social way -- and he frequently called to speak to me when he was at the office, or had something specific on his mind and wanted advice. We talked about work, relationship issues (we dated as a foursome, with his LT partner), he would call just to shoot the breeze, I would call to ask a question on something he was expert at, he and I would set up our foursome dinner date plans because we were both organized. We did not ever discuss sex, we did not mess around verbally or otherwise in that area -- basically, we were grownups and treated each other as such. Conversations were sometimes intense, often light-hearted.
I had much the same relationship with his girlfriend, except we were free to talk about sex, her concerns about moving in with him, marriage, etc., and whatever concerns I had. Girlfriend to girlfriend stuff. I had, perhaps, a better rapport with the dude.
We only ever met as a foursome, for dinner or activities or a play or holidays or entertainment at each others' homes. When my partner and I split after 12 years, he got the friends. I got a sad little email from the guy, never heard from the woman.
But in all that time, there was never an issue such as the OP seems concerned about. Big City, though, and no cause for anyone to be concerned about our behavior, least of all any of the four of us.
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I had much the same relationship with his girlfriend, except we were free to talk about sex, her concerns about moving in with him, marriage, etc., and whatever concerns I had. Girlfriend to girlfriend stuff. I had, perhaps, a better rapport with the dude.
We only ever met as a foursome, for dinner or activities or a play or holidays or entertainment at each others' homes. When my partner and I split after 12 years, he got the friends. I got a sad little email from the guy, never heard from the woman.
But in all that time, there was never an issue such as the OP seems concerned about. Big City, though, and no cause for anyone to be concerned about our behavior, least of all any of the four of us.
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm happily married and both my husband and I have lots of opposite-sex friends. I don't really see what the issue is here unless you are concerned that the "principals" will become more than friends, or you're concerned about small-town gossip. If you're worried that this isn't really going to be a genuinely platonic relationship, back off of the friendship before anything happens. If you're just worried about local gossip, eh.. gossips gonna gossip, you know? As long as the friends and spouses are all on the same page about what the friendship is, just ignore the gossip.
posted by bedhead at 11:48 AM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by bedhead at 11:48 AM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
lots of incidental contact between all four parties, especially the two principals due to shared social activities.
It sounds like you have a pretty specific situation in mind and yet the way you're asking this question seems intentionally vague. So, this is me in a lot of ways. And I have a lot of other friends who do this. We do this in some ways because it's a small town. I share some interests only with people of the opposite sex, so I do some things with them etc. That said, this is very very cultural. Where I am (New England) the outlines look like this
- Partner has veto power if something seems fishy to them and that's absolute. Partner's emotional comfort with the situation comes first before the friend's emotional comfort. I expect the same from them w/r/t their partner.
- Other partner must be 100% on board and if they're not, this isn't really workable. I'm female and have a lot of male friends. This really only works if I am friends at some level with their spouse and the spouse is totally okay with them having a female friend like me. Most people are fine with this, some people aren't. If they're not it doesn't matter if there is something I consider a "good" reason or not, no drama friendship means that everyone needs to be okay about this.
- We don't joke about hooking up, there is not a "well there's some sexual tension but really we're just friends..." situation. This is what works for me, other people are okay with flirting or whatever but for my peace of mind things are just above board always.
- Who cares what other people think. Since there's no flirting or whatever, people who jump to conclusions can just have that be their issue. Since everyone involved (me and my partner, my friend and their partner) are on board, there's no way for other people's weirdness to be a problem. This is super NOT true if one member of the whole arrangement does not feel ok with things.
- It's good if other friend does not become confidant for issues/concerns in your own marriage. Some people can do this, often people can't. To me the big important reality check that I do with myself is asking if the person I am friends with is on some ways fulfilling the role a partner should play but mine for some reason, doesn't. If that's the case, I probably need to examine my relationship more than work on this friendship.
I've always been a general fan of the "distributed boyfriend" model where I have one main partner but other people in my life who have other qualities I admire or want to experience (that are not partner-only types of things like weddings, funerals, holidays) and so don't depend on my partner for every single thing. I have a friend who is a nerdy engineer, for example, and he and I will talk machines and robots and systems stuff in a way I don't with my partner. My partner knows and is fine with this. It works. Where it would work less is if this was the guy I was staying out late with on the weekends when maybe my partner wanted us to do something together (for example) and if I started being all "Hey partner chill out this is my good friend here" for me that would be putting the line in a weird place. But we're not really jealous types and so, again, this is not a drama thing more of a "There are only so many hours in the day, make sure you're allocating them in line with your values" way. Other people do this differently, this way may not be "right" per se, but it's definitely right for me.
posted by jessamyn at 12:24 PM on December 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
It sounds like you have a pretty specific situation in mind and yet the way you're asking this question seems intentionally vague. So, this is me in a lot of ways. And I have a lot of other friends who do this. We do this in some ways because it's a small town. I share some interests only with people of the opposite sex, so I do some things with them etc. That said, this is very very cultural. Where I am (New England) the outlines look like this
- Partner has veto power if something seems fishy to them and that's absolute. Partner's emotional comfort with the situation comes first before the friend's emotional comfort. I expect the same from them w/r/t their partner.
- Other partner must be 100% on board and if they're not, this isn't really workable. I'm female and have a lot of male friends. This really only works if I am friends at some level with their spouse and the spouse is totally okay with them having a female friend like me. Most people are fine with this, some people aren't. If they're not it doesn't matter if there is something I consider a "good" reason or not, no drama friendship means that everyone needs to be okay about this.
- We don't joke about hooking up, there is not a "well there's some sexual tension but really we're just friends..." situation. This is what works for me, other people are okay with flirting or whatever but for my peace of mind things are just above board always.
- Who cares what other people think. Since there's no flirting or whatever, people who jump to conclusions can just have that be their issue. Since everyone involved (me and my partner, my friend and their partner) are on board, there's no way for other people's weirdness to be a problem. This is super NOT true if one member of the whole arrangement does not feel ok with things.
- It's good if other friend does not become confidant for issues/concerns in your own marriage. Some people can do this, often people can't. To me the big important reality check that I do with myself is asking if the person I am friends with is on some ways fulfilling the role a partner should play but mine for some reason, doesn't. If that's the case, I probably need to examine my relationship more than work on this friendship.
I've always been a general fan of the "distributed boyfriend" model where I have one main partner but other people in my life who have other qualities I admire or want to experience (that are not partner-only types of things like weddings, funerals, holidays) and so don't depend on my partner for every single thing. I have a friend who is a nerdy engineer, for example, and he and I will talk machines and robots and systems stuff in a way I don't with my partner. My partner knows and is fine with this. It works. Where it would work less is if this was the guy I was staying out late with on the weekends when maybe my partner wanted us to do something together (for example) and if I started being all "Hey partner chill out this is my good friend here" for me that would be putting the line in a weird place. But we're not really jealous types and so, again, this is not a drama thing more of a "There are only so many hours in the day, make sure you're allocating them in line with your values" way. Other people do this differently, this way may not be "right" per se, but it's definitely right for me.
posted by jessamyn at 12:24 PM on December 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
I have a magical close relationship with a male friend who is significantly younger than me. This friendship has outlasted serious romantic relationships on both our parts, and we are both currently in very happy monogamous relationships.
We always kept it platonic because we both knew that we would never work romantically or sexually and to 'go there' would be the eventual ruination of our magical connection. It was a clear choice, and we both made that choice independent of each other. We have discussed our views on the decision and are honest with each other.
There have been times it is hard and times that it is easy. But there has never been (nor will there ever be) any desire or reason to change our decision. For us, becoming involved would not be honoring our connection.
This friendship has caused jealousy and angst for our partners in unhealthy relationships, despite our being very clear to our SO's that there was no monkey business afoot. It's different than having a friendship with a person whose gender you are not sexually attracted to in that way.
But in our healthy current relationships, there is 0 issue. I think this is because an underlying jealously is partially fueled by the jealous partners' desire to have beloved all to theirselves. It's not socially kosher for heterosexuals to be jealous of their partners same sex friendships; that is considered isolating and abusive. But when they get the chance to stomp their foot and say 'No! All love is for me!' they jump on it like a duck on a junebug.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 12:30 PM on December 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
We always kept it platonic because we both knew that we would never work romantically or sexually and to 'go there' would be the eventual ruination of our magical connection. It was a clear choice, and we both made that choice independent of each other. We have discussed our views on the decision and are honest with each other.
There have been times it is hard and times that it is easy. But there has never been (nor will there ever be) any desire or reason to change our decision. For us, becoming involved would not be honoring our connection.
This friendship has caused jealousy and angst for our partners in unhealthy relationships, despite our being very clear to our SO's that there was no monkey business afoot. It's different than having a friendship with a person whose gender you are not sexually attracted to in that way.
But in our healthy current relationships, there is 0 issue. I think this is because an underlying jealously is partially fueled by the jealous partners' desire to have beloved all to theirselves. It's not socially kosher for heterosexuals to be jealous of their partners same sex friendships; that is considered isolating and abusive. But when they get the chance to stomp their foot and say 'No! All love is for me!' they jump on it like a duck on a junebug.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 12:30 PM on December 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I have a number of close male friends and have done ever since university, where I ended up in a male-dominated field. One thing I have found is that, if such a friendship is going to work, you have to at least have a friendly connection with the other partner. I really like the way warriorqueen characterizes it as "being a friend to the marriage" or other relationship. Without that basic respect, there will almost certainly be drama.
The way you phrase your question makes me wonder if you have met someone you'd like to be friends with, but wonder if the other person might be hoping for a sexual or romantic connection. If that's the case, I'd suggest treading very, very carefully, as those situations can be very difficult to manage and even the most understanding of partners could have a very hard time with their partner spending time with someone who "wants" them, even if they trust you absolutely.
posted by rpfields at 12:58 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
The way you phrase your question makes me wonder if you have met someone you'd like to be friends with, but wonder if the other person might be hoping for a sexual or romantic connection. If that's the case, I'd suggest treading very, very carefully, as those situations can be very difficult to manage and even the most understanding of partners could have a very hard time with their partner spending time with someone who "wants" them, even if they trust you absolutely.
posted by rpfields at 12:58 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
This question made me chuckle a little, I guess it all depends on your background but the majority of my closest friends have always been women (I am a man). I grew up in a house full of really strong women that I have excellent relationships with; I suppose it was fairly natural I would gravitate towards women in the wider world.
How does it work? Well, I don't view women primarily as potential sexual partners, I guess. I know it, they know it. It's really not an issue, and additionally I believe a large number of women are really pleased to meet and socialise with straight men that aren't sizing them up sexually, more or less explicitly. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not like I think I'm the only man who doesn't do this. But there are lots men, even very nice men, who do.
My partners have never manifested any jealousy about that - but then I am an aggressively non-jealous person and I tend to look for that in partners.
I've never been aware of anyone else saying or thinking anything untoward. I guess the vibe my friendships with these women have is such that it's pretty obvious there's nothing shady going on.
I guess gender just isn't something that is a defining factor in my friendships. I don't want to sound patronising but I feel a bit sad that there are people who have never had those rich, rewarding relationships with members of the opposite sex. It's great.
posted by smoke at 1:06 PM on December 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
How does it work? Well, I don't view women primarily as potential sexual partners, I guess. I know it, they know it. It's really not an issue, and additionally I believe a large number of women are really pleased to meet and socialise with straight men that aren't sizing them up sexually, more or less explicitly. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not like I think I'm the only man who doesn't do this. But there are lots men, even very nice men, who do.
My partners have never manifested any jealousy about that - but then I am an aggressively non-jealous person and I tend to look for that in partners.
I've never been aware of anyone else saying or thinking anything untoward. I guess the vibe my friendships with these women have is such that it's pretty obvious there's nothing shady going on.
I guess gender just isn't something that is a defining factor in my friendships. I don't want to sound patronising but I feel a bit sad that there are people who have never had those rich, rewarding relationships with members of the opposite sex. It's great.
posted by smoke at 1:06 PM on December 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
If all four parties are frequently in each others' company, then it behooves the BFFs to keep their spouses from feeling like (two) third wheels. This would be especially important if you're in each others' company in public, in a gossipy small town, where feeling publicly disregarded can map onto feeling publicly humiliated. I'm speaking as a spouse here -- and frankly, I think it's us spouse-mefites, rather than just BFF-mefites, whose opinions you should be soliciting.
When mrs sockelgänger and her BFF get together, I used to feel third-wheely A LOT, and resented it. They work together, have a lot in common, often discuss topics definitively beyond my ken; and the BFF is remarkably controlling of who is going to be talking to whom about what, as well as remarkably disregarding of those thereby left out. Eventually the BFF's spouse and I formed a coalition, conversational and otherwise. This was not without a certain amount of spiteful glee on my part -- it helps that BFF Spouse is supercool, and does not deserve to be disregarded by BFF. Despite their compatibility, there has never been any concern that mrs sockelgänger and her BFF would become romantically involved. (I'm not sure why not, but such is the case.) On the other hand, there was a distinct Moment when BFF Spouse invited that kind of potential with me. (BFF Spouse had been drinking, and their marriage had been going through a rough patch.) I squelched that door shut, but still. There be monsters.
Those aren't monsters inherent to an opposite-sex friendship. If all this strikes you as petty and dysfunctional, frankly it strikes me the same way -- and those aren't qualities other people generally ascribe to our respective marriages. The Sockel-Gänger marriage in particular receives widespread explicit envy (if I do say so myself). But minor interactional skews seem to have ripped an entrance into dangerous territory.
As for handling gossip -- ironically, there's more gossip about BFF spouse and me than about mrs sockelgänger and BFF. We lunch out a lot, it's a small town, various restaurant owners know Mr. & Mrs. BFF and their young son, and BFF Spouse's co-workers are often eating at the same restaurants. Mostly we just laugh about it, in this ha-ha-aren't-we-devilish kind of way -- mrs sockelgänger shares our amusement, and enjoys repeating these stories to her friends, including the BFF. So the gossip has actually been a source of solidarity and pleasure among the four of us, making us feel like a witty, unconventional team, or something. That part is worth copying. But confine the rest of my tale to an object lesson!
posted by sockelganger at 1:52 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
When mrs sockelgänger and her BFF get together, I used to feel third-wheely A LOT, and resented it. They work together, have a lot in common, often discuss topics definitively beyond my ken; and the BFF is remarkably controlling of who is going to be talking to whom about what, as well as remarkably disregarding of those thereby left out. Eventually the BFF's spouse and I formed a coalition, conversational and otherwise. This was not without a certain amount of spiteful glee on my part -- it helps that BFF Spouse is supercool, and does not deserve to be disregarded by BFF. Despite their compatibility, there has never been any concern that mrs sockelgänger and her BFF would become romantically involved. (I'm not sure why not, but such is the case.) On the other hand, there was a distinct Moment when BFF Spouse invited that kind of potential with me. (BFF Spouse had been drinking, and their marriage had been going through a rough patch.) I squelched that door shut, but still. There be monsters.
Those aren't monsters inherent to an opposite-sex friendship. If all this strikes you as petty and dysfunctional, frankly it strikes me the same way -- and those aren't qualities other people generally ascribe to our respective marriages. The Sockel-Gänger marriage in particular receives widespread explicit envy (if I do say so myself). But minor interactional skews seem to have ripped an entrance into dangerous territory.
As for handling gossip -- ironically, there's more gossip about BFF spouse and me than about mrs sockelgänger and BFF. We lunch out a lot, it's a small town, various restaurant owners know Mr. & Mrs. BFF and their young son, and BFF Spouse's co-workers are often eating at the same restaurants. Mostly we just laugh about it, in this ha-ha-aren't-we-devilish kind of way -- mrs sockelgänger shares our amusement, and enjoys repeating these stories to her friends, including the BFF. So the gossip has actually been a source of solidarity and pleasure among the four of us, making us feel like a witty, unconventional team, or something. That part is worth copying. But confine the rest of my tale to an object lesson!
posted by sockelganger at 1:52 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
12 years ago, I was in a situation where I was supervising 3 smart and beautiful younger women. It was a staff I inherited from the previous owners and I was intimidated. I felt like I had to be frosty with them. I wasn't tempted though I did worry about that and my SO was 350 miles away for the better part of a year. The 4 of us embarked on a path that led to some serious overtime, so we ate meals together.
One day, someone who I never want to speak to made an attempt to find me. I was shaken and my employees could tell. It was a slow day, someone asked me a careful question and I opened up about my dad. We were all sitting in the office behind the retail area dealing with computer stuff and everybody had a tale to tell after mine. We sat around for a long time after closing the store.
I guess that was some kind of team building exercise that you could never design. I never had to tell anyone what to do after that day. We could nod at each other and just know. We became mindreaders and we were affectionate and obviously bonded and a real team. Things would get busy and people noted how well we worked together and mistook it for something else.
Some people started to think I had a harem. What I had were 3 people who I enjoyed talking to and working with. They'd order ME around sometimes and they were right. It was all about fluidity and keeping things running smoothly. They could do anything I could do except some of the freight and the drunk guy with the knife. And they'd send me out for tampons and tell me why it might be good that they just sit behind the register that day.
Then I went down, hard. Simultaneous kidney stones and the biggest herpes sore in recorded history. I was in a bed nude with a catheter and a sheet. They came in mom mode with ckicken soup. Guys would have made fun of my predicament and it was so nice not to have to put up that hail fellow, well met front.
The point blank questions about which one I was screwing were really annoying. There is probably a better word than "annoying". There was a lot of wink-wink nudge-nudge from guys who I really wanted to kick in the throat. "Get out of my store you slimeball" came out of my mouth a couple times.
There was also a fair amount of jealousy from ALL of our SO's because we talked about each other so much. I overheard some phone calls and they overheard some of mine. The biggest problems would start when the SO's would come in at a busy time and see this thing we were doing and the way we were with each other. Every single one of us got called outside and screamed at on the sidewalk. I guess we all had bad taste.
I learned so much from those 3. Once the wall came down, they would have conversations they wouldn't have had in front of me. And there were some stunning insights thrown around by all parties. I really miss working with them. That was special, and much more intimate than most of my male friendships.
I kind of have that developing again with 3 older women. They have tea at 3 and I am welcome whenever I can come. It's a good time and there is nobody to be jealous. And people don't gossip around here.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 4:39 PM on December 27, 2014 [12 favorites]
One day, someone who I never want to speak to made an attempt to find me. I was shaken and my employees could tell. It was a slow day, someone asked me a careful question and I opened up about my dad. We were all sitting in the office behind the retail area dealing with computer stuff and everybody had a tale to tell after mine. We sat around for a long time after closing the store.
I guess that was some kind of team building exercise that you could never design. I never had to tell anyone what to do after that day. We could nod at each other and just know. We became mindreaders and we were affectionate and obviously bonded and a real team. Things would get busy and people noted how well we worked together and mistook it for something else.
Some people started to think I had a harem. What I had were 3 people who I enjoyed talking to and working with. They'd order ME around sometimes and they were right. It was all about fluidity and keeping things running smoothly. They could do anything I could do except some of the freight and the drunk guy with the knife. And they'd send me out for tampons and tell me why it might be good that they just sit behind the register that day.
Then I went down, hard. Simultaneous kidney stones and the biggest herpes sore in recorded history. I was in a bed nude with a catheter and a sheet. They came in mom mode with ckicken soup. Guys would have made fun of my predicament and it was so nice not to have to put up that hail fellow, well met front.
The point blank questions about which one I was screwing were really annoying. There is probably a better word than "annoying". There was a lot of wink-wink nudge-nudge from guys who I really wanted to kick in the throat. "Get out of my store you slimeball" came out of my mouth a couple times.
There was also a fair amount of jealousy from ALL of our SO's because we talked about each other so much. I overheard some phone calls and they overheard some of mine. The biggest problems would start when the SO's would come in at a busy time and see this thing we were doing and the way we were with each other. Every single one of us got called outside and screamed at on the sidewalk. I guess we all had bad taste.
I learned so much from those 3. Once the wall came down, they would have conversations they wouldn't have had in front of me. And there were some stunning insights thrown around by all parties. I really miss working with them. That was special, and much more intimate than most of my male friendships.
I kind of have that developing again with 3 older women. They have tea at 3 and I am welcome whenever I can come. It's a good time and there is nobody to be jealous. And people don't gossip around here.
posted by Mr. Yuck at 4:39 PM on December 27, 2014 [12 favorites]
Mr. Yuck, what a lovely story! I wish all of my closer male friends could experience a similar situation.
As it happens, the only one who does have something akin to that is my best friend of 13 years. We met in high school and made a lot of mistakes alongside each other, so he knows me better than anyone else on the planet. Myself, his ex from college and a new & recent addition to the group are all close female friends of his and look out for him in our own ways.
I have a very firm belief in this little friend-family as vital support network and deserving of my protection, especially him, but my current partner and our relationship together is an even more intimate facet that supersedes my BFF. There are some boundaries between he and I that might be wider than most -- we change in front of each other and go into intimate details of our sex lives. But it's out of comfort and solidarity in our trials and tribulations, and I see him as my brother in a lot of ways.
If anything's uncomfortable or we're not ready to talk about it, that is respected. We pay no mind to gossip and try to shed people that participate in it, they welcome pointing swords at each other instead of outward at people who would try to drive a wedge between us.
posted by Snacks at 8:48 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
As it happens, the only one who does have something akin to that is my best friend of 13 years. We met in high school and made a lot of mistakes alongside each other, so he knows me better than anyone else on the planet. Myself, his ex from college and a new & recent addition to the group are all close female friends of his and look out for him in our own ways.
I have a very firm belief in this little friend-family as vital support network and deserving of my protection, especially him, but my current partner and our relationship together is an even more intimate facet that supersedes my BFF. There are some boundaries between he and I that might be wider than most -- we change in front of each other and go into intimate details of our sex lives. But it's out of comfort and solidarity in our trials and tribulations, and I see him as my brother in a lot of ways.
If anything's uncomfortable or we're not ready to talk about it, that is respected. We pay no mind to gossip and try to shed people that participate in it, they welcome pointing swords at each other instead of outward at people who would try to drive a wedge between us.
posted by Snacks at 8:48 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Don't act differently when you're alone together than you would if your partner was there too. Don't do things that you'd feel uncomfortable about your spouse seeing/hearing. (E.g. 'oh we were just sitting close watching the movie' or 'it was just a joke' flirty comments)
If you find yourself wanting to spend time with them, or talk to them, more than you want to with your partner, stop spending so much time with them and spend that energy on your relationship with your partner.
Do not ever complain to them about your partner. Do not let them complain to you about your partner. And vice versa. Do not talk about things that make you think sexy thoughts.
If you start thinking about how much better they are than your partner in some way, take a step back and go work on your actual relationship for a bit instead. This is a danger zone and you should try to figure out what triggered it and avoid it.
I have many close friends of the opposite sex. Sometimes this has veered over into what could be considered 'emotional affair' territory, where the friendship is bad for my primary relationship, and I have had to step back from the friendship a bit to re-draw lines (not having tickle fights, or sitting on a single-person chair instead of sharing the sofa, or just spending less time together in private). It's usually sort of painful to do but it's allowed me to preserve what I care about in the friendship without letting the kind of sexual tension develop that would make it an issue for my relationship.
posted by Lady Li at 9:45 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you find yourself wanting to spend time with them, or talk to them, more than you want to with your partner, stop spending so much time with them and spend that energy on your relationship with your partner.
Do not ever complain to them about your partner. Do not let them complain to you about your partner. And vice versa. Do not talk about things that make you think sexy thoughts.
If you start thinking about how much better they are than your partner in some way, take a step back and go work on your actual relationship for a bit instead. This is a danger zone and you should try to figure out what triggered it and avoid it.
I have many close friends of the opposite sex. Sometimes this has veered over into what could be considered 'emotional affair' territory, where the friendship is bad for my primary relationship, and I have had to step back from the friendship a bit to re-draw lines (not having tickle fights, or sitting on a single-person chair instead of sharing the sofa, or just spending less time together in private). It's usually sort of painful to do but it's allowed me to preserve what I care about in the friendship without letting the kind of sexual tension develop that would make it an issue for my relationship.
posted by Lady Li at 9:45 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
OP, would you like to MeMail me? I had to read your question twice just to double check I hadn't posted this myself. I'm a happily married woman & best friend is a married man. There's probably stuff we can talk about.
posted by stellathon at 8:43 AM on December 28, 2014
posted by stellathon at 8:43 AM on December 28, 2014
If it's all above board, why are you asking? It is not clear what your concerns are.
posted by Kwadeng at 8:26 PM on December 28, 2014
posted by Kwadeng at 8:26 PM on December 28, 2014
I'm a female person in a monogamous relationship with a male person and I have a few 100% platonic male close friends and it has never been an issue. I think these factors are key:
-friendships predated the relationship. I think it would be weird if all of the sudden, I started becoming very close friends with another guy I just met. My close male friends are mostly from college or closely-post-college,
or
-friendships are based on work or interests. My more recent male friends are through work and we share a narrow field that people who are in it really care about.
And also:
these friendships aren't squishy/huggy/highly emotional friendships. Not to say they are robotic, but you asked one way they are different than same-sex friendships and I'd say they're less squishy. My female friends are more likely to pet my head. I think it would be weird if one of my male friends did that.
posted by millipede at 7:10 AM on December 29, 2014
-friendships predated the relationship. I think it would be weird if all of the sudden, I started becoming very close friends with another guy I just met. My close male friends are mostly from college or closely-post-college,
or
-friendships are based on work or interests. My more recent male friends are through work and we share a narrow field that people who are in it really care about.
And also:
these friendships aren't squishy/huggy/highly emotional friendships. Not to say they are robotic, but you asked one way they are different than same-sex friendships and I'd say they're less squishy. My female friends are more likely to pet my head. I think it would be weird if one of my male friends did that.
posted by millipede at 7:10 AM on December 29, 2014
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By merely asking the question, it rather indicates that there might be something you want to hide or are ashamed of.
So as long as there's no cloak and dagger, kept secrets or other hidden stuff, it's a friendship.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:22 AM on December 27, 2014 [20 favorites]