Apportioning ownership to creative ideas polished through collaboration
October 21, 2014 1:01 PM Subscribe
For very low budget, collaborative efforts, where the script is an outline and you are told to act like yourself, where there is no pay and no craft services and you are doing it because you enjoy being together, how is ownership usually apportioned?
A friend is putting together an animated series based loosely on our group of friends. It has come to light that this friend only thinks we should be paid if the show is picked up and then only if we are chosen to be the voice actors for the animated series. He went to film school and has some contacts in the industry. The rest of us did not/do not.
I understand that there is almost no chance of ever making any money off of this.
However, he wants us to sign a modified talent release form, and insists that those of us doing improv voice work and making up characters and dialogue (without any compensation)(and even the person hosting the recording in his apartment) do not deserve any ownership in the production. (The person in charge does think that the animator will get ownership.) Is this normal for the industry? For low-budget films where no one got paid, do the actors/editors/sound guys get paid when it gets picked up and distributed, or just the producers/owners? How is a contract different than a talent release form? By signing a release form, do we give away rights to our likeness? Does improvising scenes get us credit as writers? Its all kind of confusing. Thanks!
A friend is putting together an animated series based loosely on our group of friends. It has come to light that this friend only thinks we should be paid if the show is picked up and then only if we are chosen to be the voice actors for the animated series. He went to film school and has some contacts in the industry. The rest of us did not/do not.
I understand that there is almost no chance of ever making any money off of this.
However, he wants us to sign a modified talent release form, and insists that those of us doing improv voice work and making up characters and dialogue (without any compensation)(and even the person hosting the recording in his apartment) do not deserve any ownership in the production. (The person in charge does think that the animator will get ownership.) Is this normal for the industry? For low-budget films where no one got paid, do the actors/editors/sound guys get paid when it gets picked up and distributed, or just the producers/owners? How is a contract different than a talent release form? By signing a release form, do we give away rights to our likeness? Does improvising scenes get us credit as writers? Its all kind of confusing. Thanks!
Your friend is being a dick about this.
There's an enormous amount of variation with regards to this sort of thing. In my personal opinion, you should either be doing this as work-for-hire -- meaning you don't retain any rights, but you're getting paid for your time and talent by the person who does -- or you're collaborators, in which case sure, work for free, but make sure that your arrangement is formalized. Like on paper, not just a verbal agreement.
Collaborations like this one can ruin friendships when they aren't taken seriously.
If you're not okay with him taking your work and selling it to someone else without giving you any money or credit -- basically, if you aren't fine with doing this as a favor, for free -- don't sign anything without reading it extremely carefully and maybe talking to a lawyer about it.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's an enormous amount of variation with regards to this sort of thing. In my personal opinion, you should either be doing this as work-for-hire -- meaning you don't retain any rights, but you're getting paid for your time and talent by the person who does -- or you're collaborators, in which case sure, work for free, but make sure that your arrangement is formalized. Like on paper, not just a verbal agreement.
Collaborations like this one can ruin friendships when they aren't taken seriously.
If you're not okay with him taking your work and selling it to someone else without giving you any money or credit -- basically, if you aren't fine with doing this as a favor, for free -- don't sign anything without reading it extremely carefully and maybe talking to a lawyer about it.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 1:23 PM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
There is a question of copyright law (eg, does the law say that your are entitled to stop the product), there is a question of compensation, and there is a question of credit.
Copyright applies to "works fixed in a tangible medium of expression". But, there are all kinds of complicated things: are you the one "fixing" it in the medium?, etc. (for an interesting discussion about this, check out how copyright law gets murky though exploring Ellen's Oscar selfie.).
It sounds like your friend is trying to wrestle all control (and potential benefits) for himself. Like Narrative Priorities said, either you should get paid for the work and can then give up your rights, or you should retain some sort of ownership in the project. And, at the very least, get some credit/acknowledgement. Your time and energy are valuable: don't ever let anyone treat it as disposable.
I am in the camp of not signing that contract.
posted by troytroy at 1:43 PM on October 21, 2014
Copyright applies to "works fixed in a tangible medium of expression". But, there are all kinds of complicated things: are you the one "fixing" it in the medium?, etc. (for an interesting discussion about this, check out how copyright law gets murky though exploring Ellen's Oscar selfie.).
It sounds like your friend is trying to wrestle all control (and potential benefits) for himself. Like Narrative Priorities said, either you should get paid for the work and can then give up your rights, or you should retain some sort of ownership in the project. And, at the very least, get some credit/acknowledgement. Your time and energy are valuable: don't ever let anyone treat it as disposable.
I am in the camp of not signing that contract.
posted by troytroy at 1:43 PM on October 21, 2014
I think that the next time you are enjoying spending time with this friend, you should tell him to go fuck himself.
Sorry, I can't answer your questions about what is standard in the entertainment biz, but just on the face of it: I can see working for free or even no credit if it's a completely no-profit venture ala "I'm just gonna put it on youtube for mom and dad". But this person is not only not paying you for your time, he's not even going to give you credit for creating characters and so forth - and it appears he's going to try to sell the finished product to make money for himself? Does this guy do a lot of coke or something?
I'm with mysterious_stranger: I'd be offended. I'm offended just knowing this is going on.
Nthing: don't sign anything. Don't let anybody else sign anything, either.
Have you ever heard the story of how Matt Groening created The Simpsons?
posted by doctor tough love at 1:50 PM on October 21, 2014
Sorry, I can't answer your questions about what is standard in the entertainment biz, but just on the face of it: I can see working for free or even no credit if it's a completely no-profit venture ala "I'm just gonna put it on youtube for mom and dad". But this person is not only not paying you for your time, he's not even going to give you credit for creating characters and so forth - and it appears he's going to try to sell the finished product to make money for himself? Does this guy do a lot of coke or something?
I'm with mysterious_stranger: I'd be offended. I'm offended just knowing this is going on.
Nthing: don't sign anything. Don't let anybody else sign anything, either.
Have you ever heard the story of how Matt Groening created The Simpsons?
posted by doctor tough love at 1:50 PM on October 21, 2014
Response by poster: Thank you all for the support. We would be credited with at least the voice acting, additional credits for writing, character creation etc are currently under discussion, but any ownership of the whole property is currently beyond discussion.
No I haven't heard the story of The Simpson's creation. Any site I should look into for that?
posted by GregorWill at 2:39 PM on October 21, 2014
No I haven't heard the story of The Simpson's creation. Any site I should look into for that?
posted by GregorWill at 2:39 PM on October 21, 2014
You can get a sense of the Simpson's creation story here.
posted by harrietthespy at 3:03 PM on October 21, 2014
posted by harrietthespy at 3:03 PM on October 21, 2014
Sorry, I was pressed for time earlier. The reason I mention The Simpsons and Matt Groening is because it's an example of how some hastily extemporized characters can turn out to be valuable intellectual property. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Simpsons:
posted by doctor tough love at 6:09 PM on October 21, 2014
However, Groening later realized that animating Life in Hell would require the rescinding of publication rights for his life's work. He therefore chose another approach while waiting in the lobby of Brooks's office for the pitch meeting, hurriedly formulating his version of a dysfunctional family that became the Simpsons. He named the characters after his own family members, substituting "Bart" for his own name, adopting an anagram of the word "brat".Which sounds a bit like the "animated series based loosely on our group of friends" that you mention. If you think there is any chance at all of this project selling anywhere, I think you and your other friends should consult with an entertainment lawyer or someone similar to make sure that your side of things is properly represented.
posted by doctor tough love at 6:09 PM on October 21, 2014
You can do whatever it is you're comfortable with.
Right now you're operating in a sort of no-man's-land on the outskirts of the real industry. Sometimes cast and crew get paid, sometimes they don't. The ones that don't have decided that the project will be beneficial to them in other ways, either through experience / connections / favors / creative satisfaction etc. The choice though is up to them.
If you feel as if you should be compensated for your work, ask. If you feel as if your contributions warrant writers credit and ownership, ask for that. If none of this is important to you or you can still see a benefit to donating your time and effort, go for it. If you're not getting exactly what you want out of this deal, walk away.
What's important to understand is that your friend has no leverage in this situation, and that you won't join him unless you want to.
posted by Smallpox at 6:55 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Right now you're operating in a sort of no-man's-land on the outskirts of the real industry. Sometimes cast and crew get paid, sometimes they don't. The ones that don't have decided that the project will be beneficial to them in other ways, either through experience / connections / favors / creative satisfaction etc. The choice though is up to them.
If you feel as if you should be compensated for your work, ask. If you feel as if your contributions warrant writers credit and ownership, ask for that. If none of this is important to you or you can still see a benefit to donating your time and effort, go for it. If you're not getting exactly what you want out of this deal, walk away.
What's important to understand is that your friend has no leverage in this situation, and that you won't join him unless you want to.
posted by Smallpox at 6:55 AM on October 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't know your industry so I won't comment on what the norms are as far as payment.
But I am a creative artist and I've participated in group projects of various kinds (songwriting, novelty items, writing, etc.) and it would offend me deeply to be participating in a project and not get any sort of credit for it. It seems as though it offends you too, so why put up with it? If you're just doing it because you guys enjoy being together, then get together without the "friend"!
I know that it happens that more powerful people get the credit for things they really should not, but in this situation I don't see why you would put up with that.
I don't think you should sign his crappy contract. And frankly I wouldn't work with this dude at all if I were you, since he so clearly seems to be trying to profit from your improv work without any sort of compensation at all. He sounds like a selfish prick.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 1:21 PM on October 21, 2014 [1 favorite]