Can money issues really end a relationship?
October 15, 2014 2:06 PM Subscribe
I know this may sound like a "duh" answer but when you're living it, it's not so easy and that's why I've come to the good ole internet for help from strangers. My SO is wonderful & we're very in love but this money problem keeps coming up and I could use some advice...
We have been together for what i consider a long time. We have lived together for a couple of years. There have been money issues from the first day of living together, which boil down to: my SO makes very little to begin with and mismanages the money that is made.
When I tell you that everything else is wonderful, I mean it. We are compatible. We have fun together. I get the butterflies. Still. Its felt like THE relationship since day one.
We say we will split things evenly but I end up paying for almost everything. There have been inconsistent months where things are split. I've suggested that I cover majority of expenses for a couple of months while the SO takes care of debt and saves when that is paid off. The cycle we live in is that there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money, and when i bring it up a couple of months later - after assuming that a good chunk of savings has accumulated - I find out that the SO has no savings, and can't split the bills. I know that a big part of the problem is that the SO does not make a lot of money at all and I'm not sure that they would be able to afford to live on their own should we need to break up.
It is at the point where I would like to get married. My heart says that i should be with the person no matter what because of all the things besides money. My brain says that maybe this alone is something to end the relationship over, as hard as that would be, to avoid future disastrous issues.
Have you been in this situation? If yes, how did you handle it?
We have been together for what i consider a long time. We have lived together for a couple of years. There have been money issues from the first day of living together, which boil down to: my SO makes very little to begin with and mismanages the money that is made.
When I tell you that everything else is wonderful, I mean it. We are compatible. We have fun together. I get the butterflies. Still. Its felt like THE relationship since day one.
We say we will split things evenly but I end up paying for almost everything. There have been inconsistent months where things are split. I've suggested that I cover majority of expenses for a couple of months while the SO takes care of debt and saves when that is paid off. The cycle we live in is that there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money, and when i bring it up a couple of months later - after assuming that a good chunk of savings has accumulated - I find out that the SO has no savings, and can't split the bills. I know that a big part of the problem is that the SO does not make a lot of money at all and I'm not sure that they would be able to afford to live on their own should we need to break up.
It is at the point where I would like to get married. My heart says that i should be with the person no matter what because of all the things besides money. My brain says that maybe this alone is something to end the relationship over, as hard as that would be, to avoid future disastrous issues.
Have you been in this situation? If yes, how did you handle it?
My parents solved a similar issue early in their marriage by my mother taking over 100% of the responsibility for taking care of the finances, and my father getting essentially a weekly allowance. But I don't think there was any dishonesty in their relationship surrounding money prior to that, and I can imagine a lot of SOs feeling really uncomfortable with this style of arrangement.
If your SO makes very little money and couldn't live without your support, is it even fair to ask them to split bills evenly? Are they trying to live up to a lifestyle that they can't afford, even when not taking care of the bills? Are they simply ignorant of how to budget? There's not a lot of info to go on, here.
posted by muddgirl at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2014 [21 favorites]
If your SO makes very little money and couldn't live without your support, is it even fair to ask them to split bills evenly? Are they trying to live up to a lifestyle that they can't afford, even when not taking care of the bills? Are they simply ignorant of how to budget? There's not a lot of info to go on, here.
posted by muddgirl at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2014 [21 favorites]
Yes, this can doom a relationship. If you are covering all the expenses so he can pay off debt, and he is not doing that, that isn't really acceptable at any level of income. (I say this as someone who has spent the last 6 months on a grueling budget to pay off annoying debts and develop a safety net, while still paying my own expenses and bills. I have a ways to go.)
It would help from a practical perspective to tell us how much you both make, within a general range, if you are comfortable with that. And how bad his debts are. I can see how he would panic and make no headway if his debt is so bad and his income so low that he'll be paying off debts with $10 spending money for himself every month for the next twenty years. In this case, there could be an understandable mental block. Then a more aggressive approach (bankruptcy, etc.) may be necessary, and you have to decide whether you want to live with that and how to approach it. But he needs help (and to stop lying!!!).
It is fine to want to marry someone more financially stable, though. And I wouldn't marry someone who lied to me about money. On preview, what thegoldfish suggests is what my partner and I have done, both when I made more than him and when he made more than me, and it worked well.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2014 [13 favorites]
It would help from a practical perspective to tell us how much you both make, within a general range, if you are comfortable with that. And how bad his debts are. I can see how he would panic and make no headway if his debt is so bad and his income so low that he'll be paying off debts with $10 spending money for himself every month for the next twenty years. In this case, there could be an understandable mental block. Then a more aggressive approach (bankruptcy, etc.) may be necessary, and you have to decide whether you want to live with that and how to approach it. But he needs help (and to stop lying!!!).
It is fine to want to marry someone more financially stable, though. And I wouldn't marry someone who lied to me about money. On preview, what thegoldfish suggests is what my partner and I have done, both when I made more than him and when he made more than me, and it worked well.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2014 [13 favorites]
Your partner lies to you. It's one thing to say, "I don't agree and I don't want to handle money like that." It's another to say, "Yes, I'll pay down debt and save," and then not do it.
What keeps your partner from making more money? What keeps your SO from handling the money s/he does have, well?
I know it's corny, but I suggest that before you talk about marriage, take a class in money management together. Churches all over the country offer Financial Peace University. Dave Ramsey chafes my last nerve with his sanctimonious attitude, but his actual class and program is solid.
Tell your SOr, "I am really concerned about your relationship with money and how it affects us as a couple and how it affects me. I want us to be on the same page about money. I don't want to parent you on it, or feel insecure about it. Will you do this with me?"
But money is how we live our lives and not feeling secure or not to have trust in your partner about money is a deal breaker.
Don't worry about if or how your partner would support him/herself all alone. Weirdly enough, people do find ways.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:16 PM on October 15, 2014 [22 favorites]
What keeps your partner from making more money? What keeps your SO from handling the money s/he does have, well?
I know it's corny, but I suggest that before you talk about marriage, take a class in money management together. Churches all over the country offer Financial Peace University. Dave Ramsey chafes my last nerve with his sanctimonious attitude, but his actual class and program is solid.
Tell your SOr, "I am really concerned about your relationship with money and how it affects us as a couple and how it affects me. I want us to be on the same page about money. I don't want to parent you on it, or feel insecure about it. Will you do this with me?"
But money is how we live our lives and not feeling secure or not to have trust in your partner about money is a deal breaker.
Don't worry about if or how your partner would support him/herself all alone. Weirdly enough, people do find ways.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:16 PM on October 15, 2014 [22 favorites]
money issues can sure as shit end a relationship. it's the second most common relationship ender after cheating.
posted by bruce at 2:16 PM on October 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by bruce at 2:16 PM on October 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
"...there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money…"
That's the key point. Nothing else matters much if your partner won't be honest about money. You can still love him, still have the butterflies, etc. But if there's no honesty about the money, you are dooming yourself to misery if you link your life with this guy's.
posted by Longtime Listener at 2:18 PM on October 15, 2014 [28 favorites]
That's the key point. Nothing else matters much if your partner won't be honest about money. You can still love him, still have the butterflies, etc. But if there's no honesty about the money, you are dooming yourself to misery if you link your life with this guy's.
posted by Longtime Listener at 2:18 PM on October 15, 2014 [28 favorites]
Of course it can end a relationship. If SO is chronically incapable of saving, and this is something that will bother you forever, you have to weigh that vs the everything else is wonderful.
Also troubling is the dishonesty. Though, from your description, it sounds like its more SO lacks the skills/organization to really handle SO's money well, and is likely ashamed of it. Though I might be reading too much into the text, since I myself am poor with money.
Also, what does SO spend it all on? Where money mysteriously vanishes, there may be possible drug use. Just throwing that out there as an option.
Do yall want kids? Kids are hella expensive. As is college. As is sudden emergency car/medical/house bills.
If yall get married, will SO have access to all the bank accounts? Do you trust SO with that kind of power?
Do you make enough $$ that you can support SO, SO's bad financial habits, and live the life you want to?
Also, it is not your duty to ensure SO can survive on their own...
posted by Jacen at 2:18 PM on October 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
Also troubling is the dishonesty. Though, from your description, it sounds like its more SO lacks the skills/organization to really handle SO's money well, and is likely ashamed of it. Though I might be reading too much into the text, since I myself am poor with money.
Also, what does SO spend it all on? Where money mysteriously vanishes, there may be possible drug use. Just throwing that out there as an option.
Do yall want kids? Kids are hella expensive. As is college. As is sudden emergency car/medical/house bills.
If yall get married, will SO have access to all the bank accounts? Do you trust SO with that kind of power?
Do you make enough $$ that you can support SO, SO's bad financial habits, and live the life you want to?
Also, it is not your duty to ensure SO can survive on their own...
posted by Jacen at 2:18 PM on October 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
Agreeing to do something and then not doing it is not just a money problem. While a lot of couples break up over money problems, some couples do find ways to work around money problems. But I don't know that there's a workaround to dishonesty, evasiveness, and not being a person of one's word.
posted by drlith at 2:18 PM on October 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by drlith at 2:18 PM on October 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
This is a bad bad way to manage a marriage.
Please don't have children or pets with this person unless you are willing to support all of you, on your own and by yourself.
----
Why is your boyfriend under-employed?
- This is who he is. Can you live with never having the things a double income would give you?
Your answer to that question is the answer to your main question. Only you know what you are comfortable with.
posted by jbenben at 2:20 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
Please don't have children or pets with this person unless you are willing to support all of you, on your own and by yourself.
----
Why is your boyfriend under-employed?
- This is who he is. Can you live with never having the things a double income would give you?
Your answer to that question is the answer to your main question. Only you know what you are comfortable with.
posted by jbenben at 2:20 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
Do not marry someone who you have this level of money worries over. If this is THE relationship marriage can keep for a few years. If it's not, you're gonna be saddled with a much bigger financial headache, during the marriage and if it ever dissolves. You are split, and that's enough information you need to put the brakes on marriage plans for now.
Whether you need to break up is dependent on how far he goes in changing this. He NEEDS to change this if you're going to stay with him. It is HIS responsibility to manage his funds, and he needs to be an adult about this.
Listen: My partner and I are in our early twenties. I work part time at just about minimum wage. My partner is a student. We write down every single communal expenditure in a little book- receipts from groceries, takeaways, household maintenance stuff, bills. On the first of the month we go over the previous month's list of expenditures, plus our bank statements, and add up the balanced owed. We have excel documents. The bills and rent leave my account, so usually my SO pays me back what they owe. Keeping track of expenditure and sitting down on a regular basis to see who owes who what is the only way to keep on track. We don't have much, but we manage and are responsible to each other. It's possible.
I say you write down every single thing you pay for over the next few weeks. Tot up the household budget. See just how much more you're putting in than he is. Lay this out to him. See what happens. What should happen is he starts tucking some of his money away each month in a separate account so he can't fritter it away like he's currently doing. AT LEAST enough to cover half the rent and bills, but hopefully half of the whole budget. If not half exactly than a proportional amount based on relative income.
How things go after this is going to decide whether you stay or not. If he whines, or lies, or "forgets", or does anything which doesn't constitute a considerable improvement, you should go.
posted by mymbleth at 2:21 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Whether you need to break up is dependent on how far he goes in changing this. He NEEDS to change this if you're going to stay with him. It is HIS responsibility to manage his funds, and he needs to be an adult about this.
Listen: My partner and I are in our early twenties. I work part time at just about minimum wage. My partner is a student. We write down every single communal expenditure in a little book- receipts from groceries, takeaways, household maintenance stuff, bills. On the first of the month we go over the previous month's list of expenditures, plus our bank statements, and add up the balanced owed. We have excel documents. The bills and rent leave my account, so usually my SO pays me back what they owe. Keeping track of expenditure and sitting down on a regular basis to see who owes who what is the only way to keep on track. We don't have much, but we manage and are responsible to each other. It's possible.
I say you write down every single thing you pay for over the next few weeks. Tot up the household budget. See just how much more you're putting in than he is. Lay this out to him. See what happens. What should happen is he starts tucking some of his money away each month in a separate account so he can't fritter it away like he's currently doing. AT LEAST enough to cover half the rent and bills, but hopefully half of the whole budget. If not half exactly than a proportional amount based on relative income.
How things go after this is going to decide whether you stay or not. If he whines, or lies, or "forgets", or does anything which doesn't constitute a considerable improvement, you should go.
posted by mymbleth at 2:21 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Is it actually a reasonable request to be asking your SO to shoulder half the bills? Are you living on the basis of double what your SO can afford or a number higher than that? It's totally reasonable to break up with a person because you have incompatible money issues, which is what your question reads like.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 2:23 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Nimmie Amee at 2:23 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Good point. If you marry and divorce later, you might be responsible for paying him alimony.
Would you be OK being tied to him like that post-divorce?
posted by jbenben at 2:23 PM on October 15, 2014 [10 favorites]
Would you be OK being tied to him like that post-divorce?
posted by jbenben at 2:23 PM on October 15, 2014 [10 favorites]
SO needs to be more forthright about his money management. It sounds like he's happy to let you believe that he's being responsible (lying by omission) until you find out, much later, that he's been totally irresponsible and can't support his end of things. Then, you're forced to bail him out. Repeatedly. There are lots of tools for managing money that couples can employ, but those tools are for use after you establish and both abide by a common set of rules.
Right now, his mismanagement is disrespecting you and also contributing to financial instability that involved you directly. That's just not ok and that's the part of this that can result in the end of an otherwise good relationship. And, it's a very legit reason to end things.
Currently, if you want to find a patchwork solution that at least keeps him responsible for his part of your shared living expenses and you're willing to do the heavier lifting based on your more responsible approach - I'd request that his percentage of common expenses be direct deposited into either your account or a new account that you can use to pay rent, utilities, food, etc from. That way, there's no chance of the money getting to a place where he can spend it even though it should be earmarked for living expenses. While you're employing the patchwork solution, you should also be working together to establish some agreed upon ground rules for how to honestly and transparently manage your finances going forward. Part of this should also include a plan for him to get to an employment status where he could afford to support himself without you.
Do not marry him until this has been resolved and he has a clear track record of being honest and responsible.
posted by quince at 2:28 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Right now, his mismanagement is disrespecting you and also contributing to financial instability that involved you directly. That's just not ok and that's the part of this that can result in the end of an otherwise good relationship. And, it's a very legit reason to end things.
Currently, if you want to find a patchwork solution that at least keeps him responsible for his part of your shared living expenses and you're willing to do the heavier lifting based on your more responsible approach - I'd request that his percentage of common expenses be direct deposited into either your account or a new account that you can use to pay rent, utilities, food, etc from. That way, there's no chance of the money getting to a place where he can spend it even though it should be earmarked for living expenses. While you're employing the patchwork solution, you should also be working together to establish some agreed upon ground rules for how to honestly and transparently manage your finances going forward. Part of this should also include a plan for him to get to an employment status where he could afford to support himself without you.
Do not marry him until this has been resolved and he has a clear track record of being honest and responsible.
posted by quince at 2:28 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Ooo! Last comment, I swear.
Marrying him after he is repeatedly evasive and dishonest about money + not paying his fair share and leaving you with the bill would be "rewarding" him.
You would be sending the wrong message, and you would be guaranteeing yourself a lifetime of evasiveness and dishonesty.
Marrying him at this stage would be investing in a lot of betrayal and headaches around money in the future. I don't think that is the future you want, is it?
Also, this is not a sunk cost type thing. There are great men out there who will pull their own weight and not lie to you. It's OK to break up and make room for a more mature partner in your life.
posted by jbenben at 2:29 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Marrying him after he is repeatedly evasive and dishonest about money + not paying his fair share and leaving you with the bill would be "rewarding" him.
You would be sending the wrong message, and you would be guaranteeing yourself a lifetime of evasiveness and dishonesty.
Marrying him at this stage would be investing in a lot of betrayal and headaches around money in the future. I don't think that is the future you want, is it?
Also, this is not a sunk cost type thing. There are great men out there who will pull their own weight and not lie to you. It's OK to break up and make room for a more mature partner in your life.
posted by jbenben at 2:29 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Can money issues really end a relationship?
Yes. This article in the GOOD dealbreaker series is but one example where the woman decides to stop letting her man mooch off of her.
posted by Melismata at 2:29 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yes. This article in the GOOD dealbreaker series is but one example where the woman decides to stop letting her man mooch off of her.
posted by Melismata at 2:29 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
You haven't said anything about your attempts to talk to him about this. If you've tried that multiple times to no avail, then it's not really "money issues" that could end the relationship -- it's issues with compromise and problem-solving.
posted by Asparagus at 2:31 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Asparagus at 2:31 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
We say we will split things evenly but I end up paying for almost everything.
What are these things you will split the cost for? Are any of them things he doesn't need or want?
Maybe the fundamental problem is a lifestyle miss-match.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:36 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
What are these things you will split the cost for? Are any of them things he doesn't need or want?
Maybe the fundamental problem is a lifestyle miss-match.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:36 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
They are not spending their money the way you want them to, but it is their money. Much depends on how the agreements are made. It sounds like you proposed something and they agreed to it, but it may have been a hesitant agreement. I could imagine them having some resentment over what they do with their money being your business. Of course, you are paying for them in other areas, so it is your business, but it can still be hard for an adult to accept another adult having say over a private part of their life. It can be hard to admit to or recognize that resentment.
In theory this is an issue that can be overcome, but that will require lots of honesty from both sides. If you can't rely on honesty from them about this (very important) issue, that's your answer. If it comes down to it, they can pay you X amount and let you handle everything, including their debt. It works for some couples, but it still requires honesty. If they acquired more debt without telling you, for example, that arrangement would still not work.
I agree they should not be responsible for half the bills if your income dwarfs theirs.
posted by soelo at 2:36 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
In theory this is an issue that can be overcome, but that will require lots of honesty from both sides. If you can't rely on honesty from them about this (very important) issue, that's your answer. If it comes down to it, they can pay you X amount and let you handle everything, including their debt. It works for some couples, but it still requires honesty. If they acquired more debt without telling you, for example, that arrangement would still not work.
I agree they should not be responsible for half the bills if your income dwarfs theirs.
posted by soelo at 2:36 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
As someone who is bad with money and used to be a chronic underearner I know this feeling well from your SO's side.
He's not good with money. He probably does to do some forgetting about money issues. Framing this as lying to you will go nowhere good.
If you want him to change it's like anything else that needs to be taught. It will take some working together and probably some reminding on your end to make it work. But if the relationship is as good as you say it is, then it would be worth it.
posted by josher71 at 2:37 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
He's not good with money. He probably does to do some forgetting about money issues. Framing this as lying to you will go nowhere good.
If you want him to change it's like anything else that needs to be taught. It will take some working together and probably some reminding on your end to make it work. But if the relationship is as good as you say it is, then it would be worth it.
posted by josher71 at 2:37 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
Every couple I know handles this differently, it's deep stuff.
If your partner wants to maintain independent control over their money, and is then going to be this terrible about managing it, then yeah, I think that's going to be a huge problem for you long term.
But, I can also see another way forward; it may be that part of the reason your parter is so bad with money is that it's not something they regard as very important, there one of those passion-driven people who are happy to sacrifice financially to pursue their desires, and are a little lackadaisical about paying the utility bill to go along with it.
If that is the case, then you could elect to handle the finances for the pair of you, going forward --- planning for long term goals, paying the bills, doing the taxes is all your balliwick, with each of you getting a bit of mad money siphoned off into a separate account to spend on whatever each month. That might work as a solution --- your joint finances will be handled responsibly, because your responsible ass will be doing the handling.
A lot of people would buck at such a proposal, however. And in that case you may be stuck. You need to talk this over with your SO. Because while being with them makes you happy, it sounds like having a roof over your head and not having to live on cat food when you retire will be pretty important components of your long term happiness as well. You're not going to be able to rely on your SO to shoulder an equal end of this particular burden. Figure out if you think you can and they will be able to let you take it on yourself.
posted by Diablevert at 2:40 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
If your partner wants to maintain independent control over their money, and is then going to be this terrible about managing it, then yeah, I think that's going to be a huge problem for you long term.
But, I can also see another way forward; it may be that part of the reason your parter is so bad with money is that it's not something they regard as very important, there one of those passion-driven people who are happy to sacrifice financially to pursue their desires, and are a little lackadaisical about paying the utility bill to go along with it.
If that is the case, then you could elect to handle the finances for the pair of you, going forward --- planning for long term goals, paying the bills, doing the taxes is all your balliwick, with each of you getting a bit of mad money siphoned off into a separate account to spend on whatever each month. That might work as a solution --- your joint finances will be handled responsibly, because your responsible ass will be doing the handling.
A lot of people would buck at such a proposal, however. And in that case you may be stuck. You need to talk this over with your SO. Because while being with them makes you happy, it sounds like having a roof over your head and not having to live on cat food when you retire will be pretty important components of your long term happiness as well. You're not going to be able to rely on your SO to shoulder an equal end of this particular burden. Figure out if you think you can and they will be able to let you take it on yourself.
posted by Diablevert at 2:40 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all of the responses. To clarify some things: we have worked it out for the past year so that I pay all expenses and then they pay a certain amount a week. My job is on commission so cash flow changes and we've made it to if i have a really great month (i know a month in advance of pay if i do), then they don't have to contribute as much or at all, with the agreement that the money not contributed would go towards savings. I think part of the reason why there is no follow through is because of an immaturity, obviously. We've had a lot of conversations about being honest and responsible and the reason to save for the future. I couldn't tell you why it hasn't worked.
You've all given me some more to think about, which I appreciate.
posted by kmr at 2:45 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
You've all given me some more to think about, which I appreciate.
posted by kmr at 2:45 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you get married in a community property state, whatever debts your SO accrues become your debts too, even if you don't know about them. This alone would give me pause - what happens when your SO takes out a credit card without you knowing?
I think you should have a bluntly honest talk with SO about future financial plans. If you cannot agree to a plan and stick to it, I don't think this relationship has much of a future. You're not wrong to think it's a dealbreaker.
posted by desjardins at 2:45 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
I think you should have a bluntly honest talk with SO about future financial plans. If you cannot agree to a plan and stick to it, I don't think this relationship has much of a future. You're not wrong to think it's a dealbreaker.
posted by desjardins at 2:45 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Every couple I know handles this differently, it's deep stuff.
This.
My aunt and uncle have been married 50 years. She manages All. The. Money. Every dime of it. She gives him an allowance every week. He has to ask her permission for everything (though after 50 years, a lot of it is just unspoken agreement like groceries or magazine subscriptions).
But the thing is, it couldn't happen if he didn't agree to it. He has admitted many times that he just totally can't handle money, and the way they live is better than the alternative.
But if your SO won't agree to such a system and lies about what s/he spends, then yeah, it's not going to work well.
posted by sockerpup at 2:47 PM on October 15, 2014 [11 favorites]
This.
My aunt and uncle have been married 50 years. She manages All. The. Money. Every dime of it. She gives him an allowance every week. He has to ask her permission for everything (though after 50 years, a lot of it is just unspoken agreement like groceries or magazine subscriptions).
But the thing is, it couldn't happen if he didn't agree to it. He has admitted many times that he just totally can't handle money, and the way they live is better than the alternative.
But if your SO won't agree to such a system and lies about what s/he spends, then yeah, it's not going to work well.
posted by sockerpup at 2:47 PM on October 15, 2014 [11 favorites]
Yes, I've been in a similar situation, and yes, it can and does destroy a relationship from the inside out. There is a reason money is listed as a top reason for marriages/LTRs ending. It sucks.
We started off trying to go dutch on everything. We reduced our expenses so we could live cheaply together – renting in a cheap neighborhood, watching utilities, having really basic internet etc. – and money still became a big problem, because my partner was underemployed and overworked and depressed about it, and unwilling to cut back on lifestyle. Had to have new clothes, new shoes, always wanted to go out to dinner, etc., not really making the adult-ish connection yet that these things are luxuries enjoyed by people with extra money lying around after paying for an apartment and electricity. I went along with it because I was in love and wanted to make things work, and I honestly didn't think it would be a problem.
One thing we did that sort of took the pressure off (for a while) was that I covered the rent in full each month, and she paid me back what she could later in the month. This works great... except it makes you the new landlord... and it only works as long as you feel your partner is acting in good faith with the money.
After a while, I didn't. Especially after she stopped being able to pay back rent at all and I just started letting it go because I felt guilty asking for the money and annoyed and embarrassed to have to play loan shark with my SO. I was even going out of my way to claim her on my insurance policy (which was quite expensive, like, significant-portion-of-my paycheck expensive) because I worried about her being uninsured, and even though I asked her to look into more affordable ACA plans, she never had time to research it, so I felt like I had a moral responsibility to provide this for her. It was so hard to bring it up, but I began to feel exploited and unappreciated, like it was assumed I would continue to provide as long as we were together because why wouldn't I? I loved her, didn't I?
You can see how this becomes a shiv to stick each other with.
posted by deathpanels at 2:48 PM on October 15, 2014 [17 favorites]
We started off trying to go dutch on everything. We reduced our expenses so we could live cheaply together – renting in a cheap neighborhood, watching utilities, having really basic internet etc. – and money still became a big problem, because my partner was underemployed and overworked and depressed about it, and unwilling to cut back on lifestyle. Had to have new clothes, new shoes, always wanted to go out to dinner, etc., not really making the adult-ish connection yet that these things are luxuries enjoyed by people with extra money lying around after paying for an apartment and electricity. I went along with it because I was in love and wanted to make things work, and I honestly didn't think it would be a problem.
One thing we did that sort of took the pressure off (for a while) was that I covered the rent in full each month, and she paid me back what she could later in the month. This works great... except it makes you the new landlord... and it only works as long as you feel your partner is acting in good faith with the money.
After a while, I didn't. Especially after she stopped being able to pay back rent at all and I just started letting it go because I felt guilty asking for the money and annoyed and embarrassed to have to play loan shark with my SO. I was even going out of my way to claim her on my insurance policy (which was quite expensive, like, significant-portion-of-my paycheck expensive) because I worried about her being uninsured, and even though I asked her to look into more affordable ACA plans, she never had time to research it, so I felt like I had a moral responsibility to provide this for her. It was so hard to bring it up, but I began to feel exploited and unappreciated, like it was assumed I would continue to provide as long as we were together because why wouldn't I? I loved her, didn't I?
You can see how this becomes a shiv to stick each other with.
posted by deathpanels at 2:48 PM on October 15, 2014 [17 favorites]
I was really awful with money when I first met my husband, who would have been fine with money if he hadn't been abysmally broke.
We started doing the percentage-of-income split from the beginning, and he was willing to take over all the scheduling/paying/management - with full transparency so I could see any time I wanted what was going on - and I was glad for him to take it. We have his/hers/ours bank accounts, and what was in mine was what I had to spend on non-survival things, and...I had to learn to live on it. It sucked at first, but I learned.
And I came to understand that fucking over your partner just so you can keep being bad at money is just about the most disrespectful thing you can do to another person. And it doesn't matter how "great" the rest of the relationship is if there is no respect. Bottom line: your relationship's not all that great. You can quit or you can try a better system first to see if it gets better, but do not blow off one of the reddest flags there is and think it will not come back to bite you in the ass and possibly ruin your life.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:49 PM on October 15, 2014 [33 favorites]
We started doing the percentage-of-income split from the beginning, and he was willing to take over all the scheduling/paying/management - with full transparency so I could see any time I wanted what was going on - and I was glad for him to take it. We have his/hers/ours bank accounts, and what was in mine was what I had to spend on non-survival things, and...I had to learn to live on it. It sucked at first, but I learned.
And I came to understand that fucking over your partner just so you can keep being bad at money is just about the most disrespectful thing you can do to another person. And it doesn't matter how "great" the rest of the relationship is if there is no respect. Bottom line: your relationship's not all that great. You can quit or you can try a better system first to see if it gets better, but do not blow off one of the reddest flags there is and think it will not come back to bite you in the ass and possibly ruin your life.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:49 PM on October 15, 2014 [33 favorites]
The problem is not this: I know that a big part of the problem is that the SO does not make a lot of money at all, the problem is there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money,
It's OK if your partner is shit with money but it's not okay that he or she is lying about money and it is a really bad idea to get married under these circumstances.
I would be inclined to create a joint account into which both of you pay your earnings, and out of which household expenses, savings and debt are paid. Each of you then gets an individual account into which your budgeted spending money goes.
If that or something else equally responsible and workable isn't OK with your SO, do not join your life to hers/his.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:49 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
It's OK if your partner is shit with money but it's not okay that he or she is lying about money and it is a really bad idea to get married under these circumstances.
I would be inclined to create a joint account into which both of you pay your earnings, and out of which household expenses, savings and debt are paid. Each of you then gets an individual account into which your budgeted spending money goes.
If that or something else equally responsible and workable isn't OK with your SO, do not join your life to hers/his.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:49 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm going to go easy on the guy.
You try to split the bills evenly, but that's not really possible because you earn more than he does. You then cover everything while he tries (and fails) to save. At this point he has no financial obligations, so perhaps it's not too surprising that the one that he is supposed to meet (saving) also gets dropped.
If he's never learned how to budget then this is not going to help him learn.
Make a budget. What does he earn? What are his expenses? What should he save? What can he meaningfully contribute to the household? If you start off with some reasonable expectations and set a disciplined budget (and, perhaps, you need to keep a close eye on the finances. Maybe you and he should go over both your bank statements each month) then perhaps he'll do better about meeting it.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
You try to split the bills evenly, but that's not really possible because you earn more than he does. You then cover everything while he tries (and fails) to save. At this point he has no financial obligations, so perhaps it's not too surprising that the one that he is supposed to meet (saving) also gets dropped.
If he's never learned how to budget then this is not going to help him learn.
Make a budget. What does he earn? What are his expenses? What should he save? What can he meaningfully contribute to the household? If you start off with some reasonable expectations and set a disciplined budget (and, perhaps, you need to keep a close eye on the finances. Maybe you and he should go over both your bank statements each month) then perhaps he'll do better about meeting it.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
the problem is there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money,
Yes indeed...... but could SO be ashamed by his inability to manage money and thus frame things as a lie to cover up his embarrassment?
posted by JenThePro at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
Yes indeed...... but could SO be ashamed by his inability to manage money and thus frame things as a lie to cover up his embarrassment?
posted by JenThePro at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
we have worked it out for the past year so that I pay all expenses and then they pay a certain amount a week. My job is on commission so cash flow changes and we've made it to if i have a really great month (i know a month in advance of pay if i do), then they don't have to contribute as much or at all
I think this system would actually make it harder to develop financial responsibility, because you don't know month to month what your expenses are. I think you should set up a system where your partner is expected to contribute a reasonable and predictable amount to joint expenses each month, and any extra commission you earn you can put into savings.
posted by Asparagus at 2:57 PM on October 15, 2014 [22 favorites]
I think this system would actually make it harder to develop financial responsibility, because you don't know month to month what your expenses are. I think you should set up a system where your partner is expected to contribute a reasonable and predictable amount to joint expenses each month, and any extra commission you earn you can put into savings.
posted by Asparagus at 2:57 PM on October 15, 2014 [22 favorites]
The cycle we live in is that there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money, and when i bring it up a couple of months later - after assuming that a good chunk of savings has accumulated - I find out that the SO has no savings, and can't split the bills
Money issues are a problem when it leads to dishonesty. You're not even married and he's lying to you about _important things_.
Do not marry this person until he gets his shit together.
posted by empath at 3:02 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Money issues are a problem when it leads to dishonesty. You're not even married and he's lying to you about _important things_.
Do not marry this person until he gets his shit together.
posted by empath at 3:02 PM on October 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've been married for just under 7 years, in that relationship for just over 15, joint bank account for somewhere in the middle of that that she largely manages, and we recently started seeing a therapist to help us communicate better about these issues.
So, yeah, even though you've never had to worry about a budget before, even though you've always somehow managed to save money by gut feel of how much you're thinking you're spending, stop right now and make a budget, and help your partner make a budget. Do this by getting credit card and bank statements for as far back as you can go, sit down, side by side, and take every expense and put it in a category: Groceries, dining out, gas, car maintenance, toys, clothing, etc.
Do this for each of you, and do it together.
It's hard as hell. There are all sorts of control issues and privacy issues and "who the hell are you to judge my decisions?" issues and "but I feel like hell unless I get my [placebo]" issues and, as JenThePro mentions, shame issues.
It sucks. You need to do it. Do it together so that you can both agree on what category things go into. As much as possible, do it without judgement!, this is a huge struggle but make that list of categories first so that as you're looking down the list you can say "that's dining out", "that's groceries".
Only at that point can you go forward and start to develop changes to what's actually happening that will work for both of you.
Saying "I'm going to put X into this shared account and Y into another account", or "allowances", or whatever doesn't work unless you do this first and make sure that whatever you're doing takes into account reality, because there will always be that unforeseen expense, that excuse, that whatever, and then you're right back where you are now.
I'm not saying this will work, but it will give you a starting point, and is something we should have done well over a decade ago. And then when you ask your partner to sacrifice some autonomy, you can say "gee, that 'occasional' latte is costing you $40/month", or "your avocado habit really runs up the grocery bills" or "holy crap, everything you're making is going into gas and car maintenance and your job is a net loss".
posted by straw at 3:03 PM on October 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
So, yeah, even though you've never had to worry about a budget before, even though you've always somehow managed to save money by gut feel of how much you're thinking you're spending, stop right now and make a budget, and help your partner make a budget. Do this by getting credit card and bank statements for as far back as you can go, sit down, side by side, and take every expense and put it in a category: Groceries, dining out, gas, car maintenance, toys, clothing, etc.
Do this for each of you, and do it together.
It's hard as hell. There are all sorts of control issues and privacy issues and "who the hell are you to judge my decisions?" issues and "but I feel like hell unless I get my [placebo]" issues and, as JenThePro mentions, shame issues.
It sucks. You need to do it. Do it together so that you can both agree on what category things go into. As much as possible, do it without judgement!, this is a huge struggle but make that list of categories first so that as you're looking down the list you can say "that's dining out", "that's groceries".
Only at that point can you go forward and start to develop changes to what's actually happening that will work for both of you.
Saying "I'm going to put X into this shared account and Y into another account", or "allowances", or whatever doesn't work unless you do this first and make sure that whatever you're doing takes into account reality, because there will always be that unforeseen expense, that excuse, that whatever, and then you're right back where you are now.
I'm not saying this will work, but it will give you a starting point, and is something we should have done well over a decade ago. And then when you ask your partner to sacrifice some autonomy, you can say "gee, that 'occasional' latte is costing you $40/month", or "your avocado habit really runs up the grocery bills" or "holy crap, everything you're making is going into gas and car maintenance and your job is a net loss".
posted by straw at 3:03 PM on October 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
And I came to understand that fucking over your partner just so you can keep being bad at money is just about the most disrespectful thing you can do to another person. And it doesn't matter how "great" the rest of the relationship is if there is no respect. Bottom line: your relationship's not all that great.
Unless you want to break up, this attitude won't help.
posted by josher71 at 3:06 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Unless you want to break up, this attitude won't help.
posted by josher71 at 3:06 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes indeed...... but could SO be ashamed by his inability to manage money and thus frame things as a lie to cover up his embarrassment?
I agree that this is very possible. If your relationship is good, and he doesn't lie to you about other things, and he is just hella bad with money, things can change. For me, it was all about perspective. Once I got a job where I got paid monthly and could pay all my bills, put money in savings, and then pay myself for a defined period of time (i.e., no "surprises" or varying amounts of bills due from week to week), I got much much better. It also helped that I made a little more money and had a realistic amount to spend through the month. I know you're doing something like that now, but maybe he needs a little therapy/coaching in how to pay bills, save, and then pay himself his fun money. And then get used to the habit and realize how much better it feels.
Disclaimer: I would NOT marry him until things actually do, in real life, tangibly, change. Too much going on there to risk it.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree that this is very possible. If your relationship is good, and he doesn't lie to you about other things, and he is just hella bad with money, things can change. For me, it was all about perspective. Once I got a job where I got paid monthly and could pay all my bills, put money in savings, and then pay myself for a defined period of time (i.e., no "surprises" or varying amounts of bills due from week to week), I got much much better. It also helped that I made a little more money and had a realistic amount to spend through the month. I know you're doing something like that now, but maybe he needs a little therapy/coaching in how to pay bills, save, and then pay himself his fun money. And then get used to the habit and realize how much better it feels.
Disclaimer: I would NOT marry him until things actually do, in real life, tangibly, change. Too much going on there to risk it.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh, also: I was convinced that I we had pretty good communication, and I have carried a horrendously negative opinion of the entire discipline of psychology.
We started couples therapy. I discovered all the places we had really sucky communication. We started very expensive private couples therapy because it was kind of an urgent thing, but I suspect that many of the exercises could be done in a much cheaper group setting, and we're also signed up for a $100/8 weeks with Kaiser couples communication class that starts in November.
The therapy is awesome at cutting through some of the shame issues, some of the "I don't want to turn this into a fight so I'll brush it under the rug this time" issues, a whole bunch of that. We should have done it earlier. Spending a few grand on couples therapy probably would have saved us ten times that over the past five years.
And we present as an "I can't believe you've been together for so long, y'all are so cute together and dote on each other and have that new relationship energy how do you do it?" sort of couple.
posted by straw at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
We started couples therapy. I discovered all the places we had really sucky communication. We started very expensive private couples therapy because it was kind of an urgent thing, but I suspect that many of the exercises could be done in a much cheaper group setting, and we're also signed up for a $100/8 weeks with Kaiser couples communication class that starts in November.
The therapy is awesome at cutting through some of the shame issues, some of the "I don't want to turn this into a fight so I'll brush it under the rug this time" issues, a whole bunch of that. We should have done it earlier. Spending a few grand on couples therapy probably would have saved us ten times that over the past five years.
And we present as an "I can't believe you've been together for so long, y'all are so cute together and dote on each other and have that new relationship energy how do you do it?" sort of couple.
posted by straw at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Nthing that this isn't a money problem, it's an honesty problem.
posted by radioamy at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by radioamy at 3:13 PM on October 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, it can end a relationship. It ended my first marriage. And it doesn't have to be drugs that suck up all the money, it can be comic books and games and lunch at a fast food restaurant, and some other thing, and some other thing....
posted by matildaben at 3:39 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by matildaben at 3:39 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
My husband and I had a similar situation early on. The dishonesty came from shame, and the mismanagement came from a mix of ignorance about money and an expectation that he could afford more than he could. Our solution was total transparency, I was there when he canceled his credit cards, and he has no accts I don't have access to. We each have an allowance acct we can spend however we want, the rest are in joint accts (we were married with joint accts already) that I manage. It took a while to build that trust back up. It was important for him to allow me "all up in his business" and for me to not hold the big mess over his head while we were building it back up. It was hard for both of us, but it has actually worked really well.
It also opened my eyes to how little he knew about managing money. I mean he's a smart smart guy and he applied for one of those scam credit cards. Oy. I think his relationship with money was thrown off by an inheritance he received as a teenager, and by being a fairly spoiled only child. He had just gotten used to money showing up to bail one out and had no real sense of what it was worth. So while I manage the budget I always talk it through with him, so he has an idea what's coming in and out. Your SO's money issues will probably be different of course.
At this point, 3-4 years out, I have no worries in this department at all, and after the big come to Jesus there's been no evidence of a recurrence of the covert spending.
So unlike many of the posters above, I don't think it's impossible to repair the situation you describe. But it might be uncomfortable for both of you, and take some work and time.
posted by pennypiper at 3:44 PM on October 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
It also opened my eyes to how little he knew about managing money. I mean he's a smart smart guy and he applied for one of those scam credit cards. Oy. I think his relationship with money was thrown off by an inheritance he received as a teenager, and by being a fairly spoiled only child. He had just gotten used to money showing up to bail one out and had no real sense of what it was worth. So while I manage the budget I always talk it through with him, so he has an idea what's coming in and out. Your SO's money issues will probably be different of course.
At this point, 3-4 years out, I have no worries in this department at all, and after the big come to Jesus there's been no evidence of a recurrence of the covert spending.
So unlike many of the posters above, I don't think it's impossible to repair the situation you describe. But it might be uncomfortable for both of you, and take some work and time.
posted by pennypiper at 3:44 PM on October 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
Would you still want to marry this person if you ended up supporting them?
If yes, then yup, your love can survive this persistent money problem. (Which mostly seems rooted in the fact that they don't make as much as you and can't evenly split expenses with you?)
If no, then, no, you should break up.
Also, keep in mind that when you get married, it's not my money and your money, or my debt and your debt. It's "ours". Would you resent being responsible for paying off your partner's debt? If so, I would give serious pause to getting married considering that the debt is part of the full package.
Also, the dishonesty is troubling, but you don't really explain what's at the center of it. Are they spending money on frivolous things and hiding it from you/lying about it? Or just saying, "Yeah I'm totally going to save and pay down my debt and then maybe in a few months I can contribute more" and then not following through on that? It occurs to me (as someone who lives virtually paycheck to paycheck) that it might be more that your SO is not being realistic about what their income will allow, and not that they are lying to you per se.
Re your reply:
I think part of the reason why there is no follow through is because of an immaturity, obviously. We've had a lot of conversations about being honest and responsible and the reason to save for the future. I couldn't tell you why it hasn't worked.
I will tell you exactly why it hasn't worked. Because your whole plan involves ifs and laters and nebulous conditional ideas that are easy not to follow through on.
Regarding savings vs. contributing to household expenses, what I would do is set up an account that he deposits the money into every week or month or whatever actually works to get the money into the account. Set up an auto-deposit if at all possible. In months that are slow for you, that money can be used for household expenses. In months where you're flush, the balance in the account carries over and he keeps contributing as if nothing has changed. Several flush months will result in significant savings into the account. In tougher times, he's at least holding up his end of the deal and staying in the habit of contributing.
posted by Sara C. at 4:02 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
If yes, then yup, your love can survive this persistent money problem. (Which mostly seems rooted in the fact that they don't make as much as you and can't evenly split expenses with you?)
If no, then, no, you should break up.
Also, keep in mind that when you get married, it's not my money and your money, or my debt and your debt. It's "ours". Would you resent being responsible for paying off your partner's debt? If so, I would give serious pause to getting married considering that the debt is part of the full package.
Also, the dishonesty is troubling, but you don't really explain what's at the center of it. Are they spending money on frivolous things and hiding it from you/lying about it? Or just saying, "Yeah I'm totally going to save and pay down my debt and then maybe in a few months I can contribute more" and then not following through on that? It occurs to me (as someone who lives virtually paycheck to paycheck) that it might be more that your SO is not being realistic about what their income will allow, and not that they are lying to you per se.
Re your reply:
I think part of the reason why there is no follow through is because of an immaturity, obviously. We've had a lot of conversations about being honest and responsible and the reason to save for the future. I couldn't tell you why it hasn't worked.
I will tell you exactly why it hasn't worked. Because your whole plan involves ifs and laters and nebulous conditional ideas that are easy not to follow through on.
Regarding savings vs. contributing to household expenses, what I would do is set up an account that he deposits the money into every week or month or whatever actually works to get the money into the account. Set up an auto-deposit if at all possible. In months that are slow for you, that money can be used for household expenses. In months where you're flush, the balance in the account carries over and he keeps contributing as if nothing has changed. Several flush months will result in significant savings into the account. In tougher times, he's at least holding up his end of the deal and staying in the habit of contributing.
posted by Sara C. at 4:02 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
So basically right now you're supporting this guy while he underachieves, then takes what money he does make and blows it on himself while lying to you about it. And you think it's going to get better after you're married?
NOT.
It's time to give him the ultimatum. You handle all the money. He gets an allowance. He starts looking for a better job. If that doesn't work, show him the door. You deserve better.
posted by BlueHorse at 4:22 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
NOT.
It's time to give him the ultimatum. You handle all the money. He gets an allowance. He starts looking for a better job. If that doesn't work, show him the door. You deserve better.
posted by BlueHorse at 4:22 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
It's time to give him the ultimatum. You handle all the money. He gets an allowance. He starts looking for a better job. If that doesn't work, show him the door.
It's fine to be OK with a low-earning or no-earning partner. It really is. That's how it works in our house. But this is a household, the household sticks to it's budget, and nobody is hiding financial information or expenditure. That shit is not OK, regardless.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:43 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's fine to be OK with a low-earning or no-earning partner. It really is. That's how it works in our house. But this is a household, the household sticks to it's budget, and nobody is hiding financial information or expenditure. That shit is not OK, regardless.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:43 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
In addition to the honesty issue, this is also about shared goals, and working to achieve them together vs working against each other. Do you have shared financial goals? What are they?
I can see where you'd be upset thinking that while you cover things, he's supposed to be saving. Are you sure he shared that goal? I can also see where if things fluctuate over months, it's hard for him to know what his expenses are. Do you both have the goal of reaching a steady level of spending?
posted by Dashy at 5:07 PM on October 15, 2014
I can see where you'd be upset thinking that while you cover things, he's supposed to be saving. Are you sure he shared that goal? I can also see where if things fluctuate over months, it's hard for him to know what his expenses are. Do you both have the goal of reaching a steady level of spending?
posted by Dashy at 5:07 PM on October 15, 2014
and if you don't have shared similar goals, that and the dishonesty are both certainly things over which a breakup can happen, with money as the surface reason.
posted by Dashy at 5:09 PM on October 15, 2014
posted by Dashy at 5:09 PM on October 15, 2014
Jesus, I thought my girfriend had time-traveled to write your stuff. In a nutshell, her boyfriend and now husband was VERY financially dishonest. She thought he was the one too, until she found out that her retirement funds were gone, the kids' college funds were gone, house about to be foreclosed and vehicles confiscated. She stuck it out with him until two more times of financial dishonesty. Now, she can't divorce, is exhausted and her family is fractured because the oldest children blame her for not getting a clue on what a creep dad is and how he plowed through all their money, hopes and ambition.
I grew up in a family with financial dishonesty. It has not made me a better person, in any sense. I suffer PTSD when the subject of money is dealt with and frankly, rely on my husband to handle everything otherwise, I freak out. Monetary stress will make you hard hearted and small souled. Do not do this to yourself or your children. Unless he changes by accepting and following through on reform then you should bail.
posted by jadepearl at 5:22 PM on October 15, 2014 [11 favorites]
I grew up in a family with financial dishonesty. It has not made me a better person, in any sense. I suffer PTSD when the subject of money is dealt with and frankly, rely on my husband to handle everything otherwise, I freak out. Monetary stress will make you hard hearted and small souled. Do not do this to yourself or your children. Unless he changes by accepting and following through on reform then you should bail.
posted by jadepearl at 5:22 PM on October 15, 2014 [11 favorites]
The cycle we live in is that there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money, and when i bring it up a couple of months later
Everyone's got good perspectives but I want to point out the sort of odd passive voice in this sentence. Your partner lied to you (I am guessing by what you said) and this gets translates into "there was dishonesty" Dishonesty doesn't just happen, it's not the weather. Your partner may have good reasons, or deep psychological issues about money and this may or may not be an issue but I'm with some of the above commenters who said the dishonestly is its own issue and it would be the one I was more concerned with, personally.
My guy is shruggo with money. He has a job that covers his expenses and when he was paying child support he was always in a state of sliding debt and there was a long period of "When I'm not paying child support things will all be different..." and there was definitely a period of trust there where I had to basically take this on faith . But over time, he was good on what he said and while he's managing his student loan debt (he was out of extensions, he had to make some choices) and a bunch of other things, there has been incremental progress. Savings. Better choices. This is not how I would manage it if it were my debt, but he's managing it, not hiding from it, not telling me untrue stories about it. For my part I'm up front and talking to him about it with maybe more frequency than I used to and not just presuming that he's with the program. So we're not at the "I manage the money, he gets the allowance" point, but we're definitely at the "He consults with me about major money issues because I am really good with money and he is not" point and that works for both of us.
And that's the point, this works for me and it works for him and we're not planning to get married (non-starter for me and not because of debt) so this is fine, for the long haul. I think you need to have a plan with your partner about the situation that involves both the dishonesty and a plan to move forward that has concrete goals and not just "work on paying down debt" sorts of hand wavey things. This is money. It's math. It may not feel that way to your partner but it's a thing that can be measured. If they have psychological issues about it, that's normal but that's "talk to a therapist time" it's not magic, it's numbers.
I am with everyone else in that you should not, at all, marry this person unless you can come to an agreement and show that you can both stick with it.
posted by jessamyn at 5:57 PM on October 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
Everyone's got good perspectives but I want to point out the sort of odd passive voice in this sentence. Your partner lied to you (I am guessing by what you said) and this gets translates into "there was dishonesty" Dishonesty doesn't just happen, it's not the weather. Your partner may have good reasons, or deep psychological issues about money and this may or may not be an issue but I'm with some of the above commenters who said the dishonestly is its own issue and it would be the one I was more concerned with, personally.
My guy is shruggo with money. He has a job that covers his expenses and when he was paying child support he was always in a state of sliding debt and there was a long period of "When I'm not paying child support things will all be different..." and there was definitely a period of trust there where I had to basically take this on faith . But over time, he was good on what he said and while he's managing his student loan debt (he was out of extensions, he had to make some choices) and a bunch of other things, there has been incremental progress. Savings. Better choices. This is not how I would manage it if it were my debt, but he's managing it, not hiding from it, not telling me untrue stories about it. For my part I'm up front and talking to him about it with maybe more frequency than I used to and not just presuming that he's with the program. So we're not at the "I manage the money, he gets the allowance" point, but we're definitely at the "He consults with me about major money issues because I am really good with money and he is not" point and that works for both of us.
And that's the point, this works for me and it works for him and we're not planning to get married (non-starter for me and not because of debt) so this is fine, for the long haul. I think you need to have a plan with your partner about the situation that involves both the dishonesty and a plan to move forward that has concrete goals and not just "work on paying down debt" sorts of hand wavey things. This is money. It's math. It may not feel that way to your partner but it's a thing that can be measured. If they have psychological issues about it, that's normal but that's "talk to a therapist time" it's not magic, it's numbers.
I am with everyone else in that you should not, at all, marry this person unless you can come to an agreement and show that you can both stick with it.
posted by jessamyn at 5:57 PM on October 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
This is money. It's math. It may not feel that way to your partner but it's a thing that can be measured. If they have psychological issues about it, that's normal but that's "talk to a therapist time" it's not magic, it's numbers.
This is so true. Another thing I forgot to mention above: I didn't really understand my debt until I found an debt repayment calculator online. I put all my separate credit card bills and loans and interest rates in and I calculated how long it would take me to pay off all my debt with the minimum payments. Then I calculated how long it would take me to pay off all my debt if I put as much as I could afford toward the payments. The difference was staggering and really made me realize for the first time (as someone who grew up with her understanding of money always being, "it comes and goes, and there's never enough of it") that
1) debt is a real, measurable thing,
2) every time I put $X on my credit card, I'm consigning myself to X months of debt slavery
These two discoveries were what really made me take my debt seriously! Similarly, when I realized I could calculate how much I needed to save to e.g. make a security deposit on a better apartment (a personal goal of mine) or go on a trip to Europe (another personal goal), I became a lot more interested in saving.
Monetary stress will make you hard hearted and small souled.
This is super true. Do not go lightly into a bad financial situation. (jadepearl's story about the kids resenting the mom because of the "creep dad"-- so true!)
posted by stoneandstar at 6:26 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is so true. Another thing I forgot to mention above: I didn't really understand my debt until I found an debt repayment calculator online. I put all my separate credit card bills and loans and interest rates in and I calculated how long it would take me to pay off all my debt with the minimum payments. Then I calculated how long it would take me to pay off all my debt if I put as much as I could afford toward the payments. The difference was staggering and really made me realize for the first time (as someone who grew up with her understanding of money always being, "it comes and goes, and there's never enough of it") that
1) debt is a real, measurable thing,
2) every time I put $X on my credit card, I'm consigning myself to X months of debt slavery
These two discoveries were what really made me take my debt seriously! Similarly, when I realized I could calculate how much I needed to save to e.g. make a security deposit on a better apartment (a personal goal of mine) or go on a trip to Europe (another personal goal), I became a lot more interested in saving.
Monetary stress will make you hard hearted and small souled.
This is super true. Do not go lightly into a bad financial situation. (jadepearl's story about the kids resenting the mom because of the "creep dad"-- so true!)
posted by stoneandstar at 6:26 PM on October 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Hello kmr! You asked "Have you been in this situation? If yes, how did you handle it?" A year ago I could have written your exact question. I was with the love of my life for almost a decade and while money was a minor afterthought, I paid for everything. That said, I did not like being responsible for everything. I am by nature a dominant person but sometimes I felt he was childlike in a frustratingly passive aggressive way... But those feelings were easily brushed off. Like you, we had fun together and I always had butterflies. I would have gone along happily supporting an unemployed 40 year old man, disregarding how he mismanaged every penny that came his way, until a disgruntled person contacted me and I learned he had been spending all cash available to him on hard drugs... And stealing on a massive scale to support the secret habit.
For me it ended very badly. When it all came out, he attempted suicide and was horribly and permanently injured.
I am not even remotely suggesting you are in the same situation I was in, I am just relating my experience. When you mention there is mismanagement of money going on, and dishonesty regarding the use of funds, this made me wonder if your partner (like my ex) may have some terrible and costly issue they are hiding from you, which they feel very ashamed about. Sadly no matter how much you love someone you cannot heal their pain, and you cannot even stand by their side and support them if they refuse to believe there is a problem. For me it was very painful to leave the person I love (especially given the circumstances where they were injured) but the money issue was a symptom of a much bigger problem and if I tried to persevere and stay with them I would have been dragged down under the weight of their sorrows and suffered even worse pain.
My suggestion for you would be to think about where all this money might be going. It could be as simple as they like to go out with their friends who make more money than they do, so they end up spending beyond what they can afford so they don't feel left out. There are ways you can address this as a couple that won't hurt the relationship. Maybe they have some kind of consumer debt they are embarrassed over, or they are supporting a relative who takes advantage. There are many innocent reasons that you can tackle as a team once you know what you are up against. But it is also possible they are spending money on an unhealthy habit and you will be powerless to do anything about it. If they are in denial about the habit or claim it is not a problem it is better you not enable an unhealthy lifestyle.
My experience is a worst case scenario, but it is useful to be aware that the worst case scenarios are not as rare as one would think.
posted by partly squamous and partly rugose at 6:28 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
For me it ended very badly. When it all came out, he attempted suicide and was horribly and permanently injured.
I am not even remotely suggesting you are in the same situation I was in, I am just relating my experience. When you mention there is mismanagement of money going on, and dishonesty regarding the use of funds, this made me wonder if your partner (like my ex) may have some terrible and costly issue they are hiding from you, which they feel very ashamed about. Sadly no matter how much you love someone you cannot heal their pain, and you cannot even stand by their side and support them if they refuse to believe there is a problem. For me it was very painful to leave the person I love (especially given the circumstances where they were injured) but the money issue was a symptom of a much bigger problem and if I tried to persevere and stay with them I would have been dragged down under the weight of their sorrows and suffered even worse pain.
My suggestion for you would be to think about where all this money might be going. It could be as simple as they like to go out with their friends who make more money than they do, so they end up spending beyond what they can afford so they don't feel left out. There are ways you can address this as a couple that won't hurt the relationship. Maybe they have some kind of consumer debt they are embarrassed over, or they are supporting a relative who takes advantage. There are many innocent reasons that you can tackle as a team once you know what you are up against. But it is also possible they are spending money on an unhealthy habit and you will be powerless to do anything about it. If they are in denial about the habit or claim it is not a problem it is better you not enable an unhealthy lifestyle.
My experience is a worst case scenario, but it is useful to be aware that the worst case scenarios are not as rare as one would think.
posted by partly squamous and partly rugose at 6:28 PM on October 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yes, absolutely, people do break up over money.
People have already covered the dishonesty thing, so I'll skip that.
How you spend your resources (time, money, emotional energy) is indicative of how your prioritize life. Not what you *say* is important but what is *actually* important. If he wants to spend all your money on the now, and you want to save some money in order to have stability and a future, then you have fundamentally different priorities and values. Different values are a very good reason to breakup.
Does that mean it's inevitable you break up? I don't think so. I think you can arrange things differently. Maybe just pretend he doesn't make money, and when he does make money, he gets to treat you to dinner or buy you a nice shirt or something. Or maybe he'll agree to deposit all the money into your account for you to manage and then draw a monthly allowance. (By the way, allowances are for adults too! My husband and I each have an allowance that we budgeted and agreed on together.)
Ultimately, you can't change other people, only yourself. It sounds like you can't depend on him for financial support of any type. So if you had to support your life and his, would you still want to be together? If yes (and he won't actively steal from you, assuming that his previous mistakes were due to lack of self-control rather than ill-intent), then do that, even if it means downsizing. If you require your partner to also contribute to your life together financially, then I fear it's time to breakup.
(FYI, I have been in a long term relationship where my partner did not earn money, tried but failed to get a job making any amount of money, and wanted to spend all my money when I gave him a card to buy groceries with. It was incredibly frustrating. In the end, I lost a lot of respect for him and we broke up. Which is not to say it's the only reason we broke up. But in his case, his carelessness and inability to follow through was not isolated to money matters.)
posted by ethidda at 8:28 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
People have already covered the dishonesty thing, so I'll skip that.
How you spend your resources (time, money, emotional energy) is indicative of how your prioritize life. Not what you *say* is important but what is *actually* important. If he wants to spend all your money on the now, and you want to save some money in order to have stability and a future, then you have fundamentally different priorities and values. Different values are a very good reason to breakup.
Does that mean it's inevitable you break up? I don't think so. I think you can arrange things differently. Maybe just pretend he doesn't make money, and when he does make money, he gets to treat you to dinner or buy you a nice shirt or something. Or maybe he'll agree to deposit all the money into your account for you to manage and then draw a monthly allowance. (By the way, allowances are for adults too! My husband and I each have an allowance that we budgeted and agreed on together.)
Ultimately, you can't change other people, only yourself. It sounds like you can't depend on him for financial support of any type. So if you had to support your life and his, would you still want to be together? If yes (and he won't actively steal from you, assuming that his previous mistakes were due to lack of self-control rather than ill-intent), then do that, even if it means downsizing. If you require your partner to also contribute to your life together financially, then I fear it's time to breakup.
(FYI, I have been in a long term relationship where my partner did not earn money, tried but failed to get a job making any amount of money, and wanted to spend all my money when I gave him a card to buy groceries with. It was incredibly frustrating. In the end, I lost a lot of respect for him and we broke up. Which is not to say it's the only reason we broke up. But in his case, his carelessness and inability to follow through was not isolated to money matters.)
posted by ethidda at 8:28 PM on October 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Honey, this is something that can absolutely ruin your life, and maybe even ruin the life of any children you may have with this person. I am so worried because you say "avoid future disastrous issues". You have an expectation of future disastrous issues, yet you consider marriage?
All right. It seems like your income fluctuates, and your situation is somewhat unclear, so before you make any big decisions (such as marriage), two things to ask yourself are:
1. Can I financially support a financially irresponsible spouse? That is, do I believe it's likely that my income will always allow me to provide for my own needs, the needs of any children (if I want them), the needs of my spouse, PLUS the extra expenses undertaken by a spouse such as I will have.
2. Can I emotionally support this? That is, what will I pay (because you will pay) in terms of mental stress, and perhaps, if you divorce, in terms of oh-my-god-did-I-spend-years doing this. Plus! If you have children, can you live with them knowing (as children) that their parent is doing weird stuff that stresses the other parent out; and knowing (as adults) that their parent behaved the way they did? Also--if you are a man, maybe you grew up thinking you'd support a spouse. If you are a woman, maybe you thought "I'll have to support myself" or "we'll be financial partners" or "my spouse will support me"--and that might be a major mental shift you have to deal with. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm saying you might be dealing with residual stuff, and societal stuff, that will take mental energy.
(A digression. People don't often talk about this happening in Real Life. They are ashamed to. Looking at my bookshelf, let's see the books that have, as major themes, "People who are irresponsible about money and/or work, and the effect it has on their spouses and children." Pride and Prejudice - Sense and Sensibility - Persuasion - A Tree Grows in Brooklyn - Middlemarch (two plots!) - The Fountain Overflows - The Wings of the Dove. Let me stop there. I think you can see that this is a major issue in people's lives, and an issue that many people can relate to. It's not something that people see as a fantasy--it's something which, when it shows up in novels, causes readers to nod their heads and say "Of course!")
Please note that if you marry someone who lies to you about money management, it's like moving in with a pyromaniac. You are really giving this person a lot of power to burn down your life and everything you've worked for.
Many people (and I) would say that the lying is very worrying. And it is! And the "mismanagement" is worrying--how different, if your lover made very little but stayed within that income! However, please note that if your values on money differ fundamentally, it is also okay to end this relationship.
Romantic love is great! Marrying for love, also great! I agree with our society--marrying for money is wrong! However, our society has sold people (particularly women, if you are a woman) a sort of bill of goods, saying that considering money in a relationship is sordid. I think that's incorrect. As a positive influence--money may not be that important. As a negative influence--in our society, money reflects our deepest values, desires, and sources of power. The way people relate to money tells you so much about them.
No, really, I'll be blunter: Do you want me to say: "Go ahead and marry this person who doesn't get their shit together! Who lies to you about money! It'll never come back to hurt you! TAKE MY BLESSING!!! GIVE THIS PERSON THE POWER TO RUIN YOUR LIFE!!! THEY'VE SHOWN WHAT THEY DO WITH RESPONSIBILITY!!!!"
No.
posted by Hypatia at 8:59 PM on October 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
All right. It seems like your income fluctuates, and your situation is somewhat unclear, so before you make any big decisions (such as marriage), two things to ask yourself are:
1. Can I financially support a financially irresponsible spouse? That is, do I believe it's likely that my income will always allow me to provide for my own needs, the needs of any children (if I want them), the needs of my spouse, PLUS the extra expenses undertaken by a spouse such as I will have.
2. Can I emotionally support this? That is, what will I pay (because you will pay) in terms of mental stress, and perhaps, if you divorce, in terms of oh-my-god-did-I-spend-years doing this. Plus! If you have children, can you live with them knowing (as children) that their parent is doing weird stuff that stresses the other parent out; and knowing (as adults) that their parent behaved the way they did? Also--if you are a man, maybe you grew up thinking you'd support a spouse. If you are a woman, maybe you thought "I'll have to support myself" or "we'll be financial partners" or "my spouse will support me"--and that might be a major mental shift you have to deal with. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm saying you might be dealing with residual stuff, and societal stuff, that will take mental energy.
(A digression. People don't often talk about this happening in Real Life. They are ashamed to. Looking at my bookshelf, let's see the books that have, as major themes, "People who are irresponsible about money and/or work, and the effect it has on their spouses and children." Pride and Prejudice - Sense and Sensibility - Persuasion - A Tree Grows in Brooklyn - Middlemarch (two plots!) - The Fountain Overflows - The Wings of the Dove. Let me stop there. I think you can see that this is a major issue in people's lives, and an issue that many people can relate to. It's not something that people see as a fantasy--it's something which, when it shows up in novels, causes readers to nod their heads and say "Of course!")
Please note that if you marry someone who lies to you about money management, it's like moving in with a pyromaniac. You are really giving this person a lot of power to burn down your life and everything you've worked for.
Many people (and I) would say that the lying is very worrying. And it is! And the "mismanagement" is worrying--how different, if your lover made very little but stayed within that income! However, please note that if your values on money differ fundamentally, it is also okay to end this relationship.
Romantic love is great! Marrying for love, also great! I agree with our society--marrying for money is wrong! However, our society has sold people (particularly women, if you are a woman) a sort of bill of goods, saying that considering money in a relationship is sordid. I think that's incorrect. As a positive influence--money may not be that important. As a negative influence--in our society, money reflects our deepest values, desires, and sources of power. The way people relate to money tells you so much about them.
No, really, I'll be blunter: Do you want me to say: "Go ahead and marry this person who doesn't get their shit together! Who lies to you about money! It'll never come back to hurt you! TAKE MY BLESSING!!! GIVE THIS PERSON THE POWER TO RUIN YOUR LIFE!!! THEY'VE SHOWN WHAT THEY DO WITH RESPONSIBILITY!!!!"
No.
posted by Hypatia at 8:59 PM on October 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
My ex SO was poor, then not poor, but terrible with money. I saved, financially supported, then cut the purse strings when I felt I was being taken for granted, he eventually stepped up, made good money, but wasn't the most fiscally responsible person around. Wonderful guy though. I found it very stressful, feeling like it was all on me to be responsible for our finances when I wasn't that confident myself about it. Thinking about having that feeling for the rest of my life was not great, and I won't lie, was one of the reasons I'm glad we're not together anymore. He's doing very well for himself now, yet I still feel relieved that I don't have to deal with it.
My now SO was an unemployed artist when we got together and I easily made 10 times what he brought in, but he never, ever leaned on me for anything, and somehow managed his tiny income in a way that allowed him to eat well, live well, without complaining about how broke he was and still shouted me the odd meal. He never made it my problem, I never felt his poverty, even though I was happy to cover things. We're now on par financially luckily, although he has student debt. Whatever. Life is great. I feel secure and stable - but the thing is, I felt exactly the same way when he was a struggling artist.
The idea that you can be in a relationship where there is a big difference in income is totally reasonable. But dishonesty and debt and irresponsibility whether it's in a financial context or any other context in my mind makes marriage A TERRIBLE IDEA. In my mind, when you get together with someone, you've got to be able to push each other ahead, going forward as a unit. If one party spends more time carrying the other, especially if the other is actively displaying behaviour that obstructs progress, well, I don't see how that's not going to breed resentment in the long term. That stuff's exhausting. I'm happy not having money if I know that it can be managed well.
posted by scuza at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
My now SO was an unemployed artist when we got together and I easily made 10 times what he brought in, but he never, ever leaned on me for anything, and somehow managed his tiny income in a way that allowed him to eat well, live well, without complaining about how broke he was and still shouted me the odd meal. He never made it my problem, I never felt his poverty, even though I was happy to cover things. We're now on par financially luckily, although he has student debt. Whatever. Life is great. I feel secure and stable - but the thing is, I felt exactly the same way when he was a struggling artist.
The idea that you can be in a relationship where there is a big difference in income is totally reasonable. But dishonesty and debt and irresponsibility whether it's in a financial context or any other context in my mind makes marriage A TERRIBLE IDEA. In my mind, when you get together with someone, you've got to be able to push each other ahead, going forward as a unit. If one party spends more time carrying the other, especially if the other is actively displaying behaviour that obstructs progress, well, I don't see how that's not going to breed resentment in the long term. That stuff's exhausting. I'm happy not having money if I know that it can be managed well.
posted by scuza at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
I used to be with someone like this. I am grateful every day that he broke up with me because things could have gone so very badly had the relationship continued.
I think the only ways this relationship can be saved are:
(a) you never marry him and you never move in together. Let him figure out how to take care of himself without your assistance.
(b) You end up 100% supporting him as a househusband and never count on him bringing in income. And hope that nothing happens to you so that he'll have to take over as "breadwinner."
(c) You become the Money Nanny and be 100% in charge of his finances and give him a small allowance and treat him like a child. I couldn't stomach this one myself (or afford the second one), but some people do make this work. I have one friend who's 100% in charge of the money and her husband just hands it over and likes it.
But there probably isn't a reasonable hope that he's going to figure out how to save money and not blow it all. I'm guessing he grew up poor, right? Poor folks tend to blow it all the second they get it because there's no point in saving under those circumstances. He'd need serious money retraining and education and I don't know if you could find someone to teach him and if he'd learn.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:34 PM on October 15, 2014
I think the only ways this relationship can be saved are:
(a) you never marry him and you never move in together. Let him figure out how to take care of himself without your assistance.
(b) You end up 100% supporting him as a househusband and never count on him bringing in income. And hope that nothing happens to you so that he'll have to take over as "breadwinner."
(c) You become the Money Nanny and be 100% in charge of his finances and give him a small allowance and treat him like a child. I couldn't stomach this one myself (or afford the second one), but some people do make this work. I have one friend who's 100% in charge of the money and her husband just hands it over and likes it.
But there probably isn't a reasonable hope that he's going to figure out how to save money and not blow it all. I'm guessing he grew up poor, right? Poor folks tend to blow it all the second they get it because there's no point in saving under those circumstances. He'd need serious money retraining and education and I don't know if you could find someone to teach him and if he'd learn.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:34 PM on October 15, 2014
"We have worked it out for the past year so that I pay all expenses and then they pay a certain amount a week. My job is on commission so cash flow changes and we've made it to if i have a really great month (i know a month in advance of pay if i do), then they don't have to contribute as much or at all, with the agreement that the money not contributed would go towards savings. "
I think this is making it a lot lot harder for you. I can see why you do it, but this "system" is based on uncertainty and vague expectations, which will make it a hell of a lot more difficult to get your partner on board with rectifying your mess. A problem I see here- what about your savings? Are these hypothetical savings your partner is supposed to put aside available to you too? If they are shared, it seems way more sensible for the both of you to work out a proportional split on all expenses, stick to that, and for any extra money you make to go into the savings. If your partner knows they need to keep $x every month to pay for the bills and rent, they will be in a much better position to manage their money. If the savings aren't shared, I don't see how it's fair that you have to sacrifice your extra income to the basics, while he gets to live off you and save.
For this to happen you will need to do as straw suggests and work out your budget, accounting for everything that is spent. Absolute transparency. If this is not happening because of his dishonesty or prevarication, your support and/or you, period, are gone.
posted by mymbleth at 1:58 AM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think this is making it a lot lot harder for you. I can see why you do it, but this "system" is based on uncertainty and vague expectations, which will make it a hell of a lot more difficult to get your partner on board with rectifying your mess. A problem I see here- what about your savings? Are these hypothetical savings your partner is supposed to put aside available to you too? If they are shared, it seems way more sensible for the both of you to work out a proportional split on all expenses, stick to that, and for any extra money you make to go into the savings. If your partner knows they need to keep $x every month to pay for the bills and rent, they will be in a much better position to manage their money. If the savings aren't shared, I don't see how it's fair that you have to sacrifice your extra income to the basics, while he gets to live off you and save.
For this to happen you will need to do as straw suggests and work out your budget, accounting for everything that is spent. Absolute transparency. If this is not happening because of his dishonesty or prevarication, your support and/or you, period, are gone.
posted by mymbleth at 1:58 AM on October 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
As someone who is bad with money and used to be a chronic underearner I know this feeling well from your SO's side.
He's not good with money. He probably does to do some forgetting about money issues. Framing this as lying to you will go nowhere good.
Going against the grain a bit here, but this is my feeling - it's possible that he's not technically lying to you so much as hiding from the truth. I have more experience from the 'bad with money and in denial' side than from your side, but I'm pretty sure it sucks either way. It's much, much worse when both sides are bad with money, one earns all the money, the other spends way too much of it on things they shouldn't and both sides blame the other. Trust me on this :-(
If you are good at managing your money and you're heading to a situation where things will be fully 'what's mine is yours etc', a solution may be simply for you to take over all money management in the relationship. This can be a drain on you and it may be somewhat embarrassing for him, but think about if that is an acceptable trade-off that, on balance with everything that is good, can work for you both. It doesn't have to be a big drama thing where you are 'forced' to take over because he's 'bloody hopeless'. It's just a household chore that you do in the same way that someone who is mechanically gifted might do all the car maintenance or the one that enjoys shopping does the groceries. As long as there's balance overall in terms of responsibility for getting stuff done, it's no big thing if you don't make it one. It's just one of those things that has to be done and, in the end, does it really matter how?
posted by dg at 4:46 AM on October 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
He's not good with money. He probably does to do some forgetting about money issues. Framing this as lying to you will go nowhere good.
Going against the grain a bit here, but this is my feeling - it's possible that he's not technically lying to you so much as hiding from the truth. I have more experience from the 'bad with money and in denial' side than from your side, but I'm pretty sure it sucks either way. It's much, much worse when both sides are bad with money, one earns all the money, the other spends way too much of it on things they shouldn't and both sides blame the other. Trust me on this :-(
If you are good at managing your money and you're heading to a situation where things will be fully 'what's mine is yours etc', a solution may be simply for you to take over all money management in the relationship. This can be a drain on you and it may be somewhat embarrassing for him, but think about if that is an acceptable trade-off that, on balance with everything that is good, can work for you both. It doesn't have to be a big drama thing where you are 'forced' to take over because he's 'bloody hopeless'. It's just a household chore that you do in the same way that someone who is mechanically gifted might do all the car maintenance or the one that enjoys shopping does the groceries. As long as there's balance overall in terms of responsibility for getting stuff done, it's no big thing if you don't make it one. It's just one of those things that has to be done and, in the end, does it really matter how?
posted by dg at 4:46 AM on October 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
I've been in a similar situation -- had a boyfriend who was a low earner, in chronic debt, who felt bad about not paying his share, but then continued to not pay his share (not like 50/50 but the adjusted, proportional agreement we came to). I think all the people saying your partner is not consciously lying to you and that it's mostly denial are probably correct. On top of paying for most things, I periodically lent this ex sums of money which he sometimes paid back and sometimes did not. Sometimes when I asked about the money he owed, he had forgotten he borrowed it. I don't think he was lying about that -- I think he literally forgot.
I also think it doesn't much matter. Most people have some profound shame or insecurity about one thing or another. What matters is whether they can find a way to deal with that shame or insecurity so that it stops hurting the people they are close to.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 10:14 AM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I also think it doesn't much matter. Most people have some profound shame or insecurity about one thing or another. What matters is whether they can find a way to deal with that shame or insecurity so that it stops hurting the people they are close to.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 10:14 AM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
As far as I can tell, you make agreements, but he doesn't keep his word. So stop doing that. It doesn't sound like it's about what he can earn/pay, but what he does earn/pay. Stop participating in this unhealthy system. Tell him you'll pay X% of the expenses, something between 50% and the ratio of your earnings: his earnings (or potential earnings). Keep in mind that you are a generous person, likely to pay for dinners out, tickets, etc., so factor that in to the percentage. Get specific bills put in his name - it works wonders when the electric/ gas/ oil/ water company says somebody has to pay. Put some of your money in savings for a house, trip, whatever. Be calm and positive, this isn't about anger; you are implementing fairness. Then stick to it.
I married someone who made little money. He never, ever kept his word. When I stopped with the words and paid attention to actions, and allowed him to experience the consequences of his financial choices (no, I won't fund new supplies for your freelance business), he left. Later learned how much of his money went to taking women out to lunch, dinner, drinks, etc., as he was always looking for someone who would support him better than I did. He had/ has a swell life. He doesn't work hard, convinces people that he's been downtrodden by his vicious ex-wife, moaned about 'child support' that he never, ever paid, and so on. His actions were always clear, but I was swayed by his words.
If he's a terrific guy who just doesn't earn much, it will work out. If he really wants someone to support him, his actions will let you know.
posted by theora55 at 4:22 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I married someone who made little money. He never, ever kept his word. When I stopped with the words and paid attention to actions, and allowed him to experience the consequences of his financial choices (no, I won't fund new supplies for your freelance business), he left. Later learned how much of his money went to taking women out to lunch, dinner, drinks, etc., as he was always looking for someone who would support him better than I did. He had/ has a swell life. He doesn't work hard, convinces people that he's been downtrodden by his vicious ex-wife, moaned about 'child support' that he never, ever paid, and so on. His actions were always clear, but I was swayed by his words.
If he's a terrific guy who just doesn't earn much, it will work out. If he really wants someone to support him, his actions will let you know.
posted by theora55 at 4:22 PM on October 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Just to emphasize, I think that the "let one partner completely handle Major Expense A while the other pays back whenever they can" is a bad idea. At least it was for me. It really just divides you.
We had it worked out at one point that my S.O. would pay our comparatively inexpensive utilities and deduct the amount from the rent she paid back later in the month, whenever she could get the money. In theory, that should make it easier for her to pay the bill, since she has some extra time to wait for a paycheck to come in. But she sometimes didn't get paid for a month, and then the logic became, "well, if I pay you back for what I owed you for rent, then we can't pay the internet bill next month." So either way, the bills got paid on time because I paid them; there was just a back-log of payments building up that she owed me, which completely defeats the purpose of splitting expenses in the first place.
Plus this division of expenses created a ridiculous zero-sum-game and led to arguments over how I was turning the heat up too high and it was driving our utility bill up. This was during the third worst winter on record in Chicago, with sustained sub-zero temperatures for months, so of course the heating bill was high!
The problem was that she couldn't budget an extra $50 a month to account for a higher heating bill, because she had no idea how much she was making versus spending. And she was, according to our dumb system, 100% responsible for that bill that month. So splitting the utilities and the rent accomplished nothing except to put us in direct conflict.
I think the real kicker isn't income level. It's income security. If you earn $80k and your S.O. earns $30k, that could work out fine with the "split expenses" system, as long as you both have job security. The math works out the same every month, so as long as neither of you breaks your promise, the bills get paid. I honestly think we would have gotten along fine in the money department if that were the case.
Unfortunately, she was paid sporadically, often had to chase down a missing pay check, or couldn't find work to fill a gap in the part-time work she had, so she couldn't budget. If a pay check didn't come in on time, the electric bill wouldn't get paid, unless she didn't pay me back for last month's rent, in which case she now owes me even more.
Which I feel guilty about. Which I can't ever bring up without looking and feeling like an asshole who cares more about money than his girlfriend.
Man, it's just a big bag of problems.
posted by deathpanels at 8:08 PM on October 16, 2014
We had it worked out at one point that my S.O. would pay our comparatively inexpensive utilities and deduct the amount from the rent she paid back later in the month, whenever she could get the money. In theory, that should make it easier for her to pay the bill, since she has some extra time to wait for a paycheck to come in. But she sometimes didn't get paid for a month, and then the logic became, "well, if I pay you back for what I owed you for rent, then we can't pay the internet bill next month." So either way, the bills got paid on time because I paid them; there was just a back-log of payments building up that she owed me, which completely defeats the purpose of splitting expenses in the first place.
Plus this division of expenses created a ridiculous zero-sum-game and led to arguments over how I was turning the heat up too high and it was driving our utility bill up. This was during the third worst winter on record in Chicago, with sustained sub-zero temperatures for months, so of course the heating bill was high!
The problem was that she couldn't budget an extra $50 a month to account for a higher heating bill, because she had no idea how much she was making versus spending. And she was, according to our dumb system, 100% responsible for that bill that month. So splitting the utilities and the rent accomplished nothing except to put us in direct conflict.
I think the real kicker isn't income level. It's income security. If you earn $80k and your S.O. earns $30k, that could work out fine with the "split expenses" system, as long as you both have job security. The math works out the same every month, so as long as neither of you breaks your promise, the bills get paid. I honestly think we would have gotten along fine in the money department if that were the case.
Unfortunately, she was paid sporadically, often had to chase down a missing pay check, or couldn't find work to fill a gap in the part-time work she had, so she couldn't budget. If a pay check didn't come in on time, the electric bill wouldn't get paid, unless she didn't pay me back for last month's rent, in which case she now owes me even more.
Which I feel guilty about. Which I can't ever bring up without looking and feeling like an asshole who cares more about money than his girlfriend.
Man, it's just a big bag of problems.
posted by deathpanels at 8:08 PM on October 16, 2014
In your current system, it sounds like he has to actually stick to saving a certain known amount of money during months when you're not paying for everything, then when you have a good month and pay all the bills, there's a nebulous understanding that the money will be put towards financial security (put into savings? debt repayment? retirement accounts? unclear). In other words, there is no accountability during the months when you pay for everything, therefore, you 'helping' him is not helping at all. This is why you need to heed the many calls above for creating a joint budget in which he defines the actual dollar amounts that he wants to save or put towards debt each month and you work together to make sure this can happen and does happen.
I would build on the wise comments of DarlingBri and Sara C. above to say that after the budget is set, there needs to be transparency and accountability in the system. This means creating an auto-deposit into a joint account, and then using the money in the joint account to pay the shared bills, to pay down debt, and/or to send to a savings account. Make it easy for him to save and difficult for him to spend (some options along these lines include putting his only credit card into an ice cube, or opening an account with a financial company like Vanguard for an emergency savings fund - doesn't matter exactly where the account is, but it shouldn't be easily accessible through a debit or credit card, withdrawals should require him to make a phone call and have the bank mail him the money or something along these lines. If he really is just 'forgetting' and not spending money for some secret reason, this should be all you need to do.
Definitely be very very wary though. I generally do all the finances for my own household, and that's perfectly fine when things are good, but if your relationship is under stress for some reason (kids, family, whatever), you might quickly find yourself feeling resentful or even contemptuous towards him for needing to 'parent' him on this.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 9:21 PM on October 16, 2014
I would build on the wise comments of DarlingBri and Sara C. above to say that after the budget is set, there needs to be transparency and accountability in the system. This means creating an auto-deposit into a joint account, and then using the money in the joint account to pay the shared bills, to pay down debt, and/or to send to a savings account. Make it easy for him to save and difficult for him to spend (some options along these lines include putting his only credit card into an ice cube, or opening an account with a financial company like Vanguard for an emergency savings fund - doesn't matter exactly where the account is, but it shouldn't be easily accessible through a debit or credit card, withdrawals should require him to make a phone call and have the bank mail him the money or something along these lines. If he really is just 'forgetting' and not spending money for some secret reason, this should be all you need to do.
Definitely be very very wary though. I generally do all the finances for my own household, and that's perfectly fine when things are good, but if your relationship is under stress for some reason (kids, family, whatever), you might quickly find yourself feeling resentful or even contemptuous towards him for needing to 'parent' him on this.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 9:21 PM on October 16, 2014
I've suggested that I cover majority of expenses for a couple of months while the SO takes care of debt and saves when that is paid off. The cycle we live in is that there is dishonesty in what is happening with the money, and when i bring it up a couple of months later - after assuming that a good chunk of savings has accumulated - I find out that the SO has no savings, and can't split the bills.
...
we have worked it out for the past year so that I pay all expenses and then they pay a certain amount a week. My job is on commission so cash flow changes and we've made it to if i have a really great month (i know a month in advance of pay if i do), then they don't have to contribute as much or at all, with the agreement that the money not contributed would go towards savings.
It's not entirely clear to me how this system works from your description, but it seems like:
SO pays a fixed amount per week
unless you make extra money, then they don't
when that happens, SO is supposed to pay debts off first and then create a savings fund
(not clear if debt is paid of entirely on each cycle and more debt accumulates)
after a few months of not paying the fixed amount, you want SO to give you some of the saved money for expenses
It seems like this schedule might be what's behind the cause of your troubles. Instead of this expectation that SO will save money for a few months and then contribute some of the saved funds, you could have them contribute the funds when they get their paycheck.
If SO doesn't have enough money to be able to consistently contribute to expenses and is accumulating credit card or other short term debt to do so, then not contributing while they pay off that debt plus the interest -- this is a very poor way to arrange your finances. It is more expensive than contributing the same total amount over a longer period of time. If you are requiring that of SO, and don't understand that money is being wasted with such a scheme, you don't have good money management skills either. (not making a blanket accusation here, it's unclear from your question if this is happening or not)
Many people have an easier time with a consistent expense instead of one that goes up and down unpredictably.
Also, don't "assume" savings has accumulated, ask about this! Don't wait months while you assume things.
Basically, try handling how money is dealt with differently, and see if that helps.
posted by yohko at 9:55 AM on October 18, 2014
...
we have worked it out for the past year so that I pay all expenses and then they pay a certain amount a week. My job is on commission so cash flow changes and we've made it to if i have a really great month (i know a month in advance of pay if i do), then they don't have to contribute as much or at all, with the agreement that the money not contributed would go towards savings.
It's not entirely clear to me how this system works from your description, but it seems like:
SO pays a fixed amount per week
unless you make extra money, then they don't
when that happens, SO is supposed to pay debts off first and then create a savings fund
(not clear if debt is paid of entirely on each cycle and more debt accumulates)
after a few months of not paying the fixed amount, you want SO to give you some of the saved money for expenses
It seems like this schedule might be what's behind the cause of your troubles. Instead of this expectation that SO will save money for a few months and then contribute some of the saved funds, you could have them contribute the funds when they get their paycheck.
If SO doesn't have enough money to be able to consistently contribute to expenses and is accumulating credit card or other short term debt to do so, then not contributing while they pay off that debt plus the interest -- this is a very poor way to arrange your finances. It is more expensive than contributing the same total amount over a longer period of time. If you are requiring that of SO, and don't understand that money is being wasted with such a scheme, you don't have good money management skills either. (not making a blanket accusation here, it's unclear from your question if this is happening or not)
Many people have an easier time with a consistent expense instead of one that goes up and down unpredictably.
Also, don't "assume" savings has accumulated, ask about this! Don't wait months while you assume things.
Basically, try handling how money is dealt with differently, and see if that helps.
posted by yohko at 9:55 AM on October 18, 2014
This thread is closed to new comments.
Partner A makes $50k
Partner B makes $25k
If Rent is $1000 then Partner A pays $667, and Partner B pays $333. So you are paying proportionally towards your expenses.
posted by thegoldfish at 2:14 PM on October 15, 2014 [32 favorites]