How to support someone who uses nonbinary pronouns at work?
October 1, 2014 4:01 AM Subscribe
I supervise a youngish person who is sort of like an intern at my job. They told me on the first day that they prefer to use a variation of their name and the pronouns "they, them, and theirs." Great! But how do I get my older coworkers to sign on for this?
Older coworkers seem completely befuddled by the pronoun request and have pretty much ignored it, instead referring to this person by gendered pronouns. I have discussed this with my direct supervisor, who manages our department, and she pretty much said it was too difficult for her to remember and didn't seem to think that a problem.
My supervisee has said that this is "no big deal" but I can't imagine they'd bother coming out to the office if they really didn't care too much about pronouns. They are very easygoing about the whole thing but it does make my blood boil when I hear my coworkers using so little courtesy. I usually correct them gently, saying, "remember, x prefers pronouns like they, them, and theirs" but I have gotten little response.
We work in a nonprofit field in which language is very important, so it shouldn't be that difficult for coworkers to "get it." Any ideas of resources, articles I can forward around, stories about convincing cantankerous older folks to get with the pronoun program? Or am I overstepping as a supervisor?
Older coworkers seem completely befuddled by the pronoun request and have pretty much ignored it, instead referring to this person by gendered pronouns. I have discussed this with my direct supervisor, who manages our department, and she pretty much said it was too difficult for her to remember and didn't seem to think that a problem.
My supervisee has said that this is "no big deal" but I can't imagine they'd bother coming out to the office if they really didn't care too much about pronouns. They are very easygoing about the whole thing but it does make my blood boil when I hear my coworkers using so little courtesy. I usually correct them gently, saying, "remember, x prefers pronouns like they, them, and theirs" but I have gotten little response.
We work in a nonprofit field in which language is very important, so it shouldn't be that difficult for coworkers to "get it." Any ideas of resources, articles I can forward around, stories about convincing cantankerous older folks to get with the pronoun program? Or am I overstepping as a supervisor?
My supervisee has said that this is "no big deal"
You had enough respect for your supervisee that you took them at their word when they said they preferred "they." Now have enough respect for them to take them at their word when they tell you it's no big deal.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:10 AM on October 1, 2014 [22 favorites]
You had enough respect for your supervisee that you took them at their word when they said they preferred "they." Now have enough respect for them to take them at their word when they tell you it's no big deal.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:10 AM on October 1, 2014 [22 favorites]
I disagree that it is an unreasonable request at all. However, if everyone is aware, you have already said your piece, and your supervisee seems genuinely unbothered by their gaffes, then there is nothing more you can do.
posted by hejrat at 4:26 AM on October 1, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by hejrat at 4:26 AM on October 1, 2014 [13 favorites]
So there are really two questions here: how best to get your colleagues to respect this person's pronouns and is this your business?
As a general rule, you should be taking your supervisee's lead on whether to push the issue with your coworkers. You're right that it's entirely possible they're telling you it's no big deal when it is. But I honestly don't know enough about the work world outside of academia to know how to signal "I have your back on this and it's okay to say you want me to push it."
But let's assume they do want you to wield some of your power. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can do beyond what you're already doing, which is modelling correct usage and giving gentle reminders. None of the obvious resources address gender neutral pronouns in a serious way. More broadly, after your supervisee leaves (it sounds like they're not going to be working there indefinitely), you might want to look into educating your organisation on better supporting trans and gender non-conforming people. People who ought to have a reasonable claim to be up on the subject often trample over preferences for gender neutral pronouns, at least until someone prods them, and it sounds like the average background of your colleagues might be little to non-existent'. (I know someone who prefers they/them who's in a fairly high up position in university administration. People above and below them are constantly fucking up pronouns, even people who should know better.)
tl;dr probably the best you can do is to keep referring to this person correctly and issuing the occasional reminder (if they want you to continue). Given that you're their supervisor, people might at least eventually assume you know what you're doing.
posted by hoyland at 4:29 AM on October 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
As a general rule, you should be taking your supervisee's lead on whether to push the issue with your coworkers. You're right that it's entirely possible they're telling you it's no big deal when it is. But I honestly don't know enough about the work world outside of academia to know how to signal "I have your back on this and it's okay to say you want me to push it."
But let's assume they do want you to wield some of your power. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can do beyond what you're already doing, which is modelling correct usage and giving gentle reminders. None of the obvious resources address gender neutral pronouns in a serious way. More broadly, after your supervisee leaves (it sounds like they're not going to be working there indefinitely), you might want to look into educating your organisation on better supporting trans and gender non-conforming people. People who ought to have a reasonable claim to be up on the subject often trample over preferences for gender neutral pronouns, at least until someone prods them, and it sounds like the average background of your colleagues might be little to non-existent'. (I know someone who prefers they/them who's in a fairly high up position in university administration. People above and below them are constantly fucking up pronouns, even people who should know better.)
tl;dr probably the best you can do is to keep referring to this person correctly and issuing the occasional reminder (if they want you to continue). Given that you're their supervisor, people might at least eventually assume you know what you're doing.
posted by hoyland at 4:29 AM on October 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I think this article might be helpful, at least to help people understand the issue even if it does not change their behavior. (I thought the part about the British Parliament legally requring the use of "he" in non-gender specific usage was striking, and I was not aware that the non-singular "they" had been the common solution previous to that.)
Since you work "nonprofit field in which language is very important," is it possible that you might have an opportunity to raise the issue as one that might be relevant outside it's application to the individual who expressed the request to you? If it were possible to have the intern lead a discussion non-binary pronouns as important for your organization rather than as important for them, that might be a perfect solution (assuming it's something they might be both comfortable and competent at doing).
For someone like alex1965, the news that the request wasn't changing the English language but merely returning to a practice that was common until the English language was changed, might be revelatory.
posted by layceepee at 4:30 AM on October 1, 2014 [18 favorites]
Since you work "nonprofit field in which language is very important," is it possible that you might have an opportunity to raise the issue as one that might be relevant outside it's application to the individual who expressed the request to you? If it were possible to have the intern lead a discussion non-binary pronouns as important for your organization rather than as important for them, that might be a perfect solution (assuming it's something they might be both comfortable and competent at doing).
For someone like alex1965, the news that the request wasn't changing the English language but merely returning to a practice that was common until the English language was changed, might be revelatory.
posted by layceepee at 4:30 AM on October 1, 2014 [18 favorites]
Your direct report made a request, you're complying with it, others...not so much, your report has decided that in the big, wide world of things that are stacked against them, that this is a thing they can live with.
Let it go.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:00 AM on October 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
Let it go.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:00 AM on October 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I would assess clear heartedly if the no big deal is coming from a place of security or insecurity. Given how little of the former interns etc have I would personally be sceptical.
I would frame this in my work as a hr issue, a professionalism issue, and a respect issue.
Hr issue: you know refuses to respect Bodiddley's request about pro nouns is potentially contributing to a hostile work environment for them. Our hr policy says x, y, z, we need to make sure we adhere to it, even if we don't like it or disagree. It is there to protect employees like them, and like us, and our organisation. I would hate for them to interpret it as harassment.
Professional: when someone tells us what they like to be called, and you repeatedly ignore it, it makes you look like a fool, or a jerk, or both. If you want to garner respect in an organisation, you have to give it out. If our managing director asked to be called a certain way, would you ignore it? If you wouldn't, and you would take extra care, then this is not an issue about pronouns but about respect, and given respect is so important to our organisation and so is naming, I would expect professionalism to start on our team.
Respect: Phyliss, if I started calling you something that you didn't like (like syphilis), and you asked me not to, but I kept doing it cause I didn't care, how would that make you feel? If your were at the beginning of your career, how would that make you feel about working here, working in this sector, and when you came home each night? We don't have to understand or appreciate why they are making this request ;that they are making it is enough. It's important that we show them that this organisation doesn't just accept diversity and a person's right to be called what they want, but embraces it. I want them to look back at this organisation as a highlight in their career, and value this team and the people on it the way that I do. So please, let's make a conscious effort to use neutral genders with them, it's a little thing, and it won't make a big difference to us, but it will to them.
Ignore posters dressing up their bigotry as grammar Nazism. Both are unpalatable and have no place in a modern office.
posted by smoke at 5:00 AM on October 1, 2014 [43 favorites]
I would frame this in my work as a hr issue, a professionalism issue, and a respect issue.
Hr issue: you know refuses to respect Bodiddley's request about pro nouns is potentially contributing to a hostile work environment for them. Our hr policy says x, y, z, we need to make sure we adhere to it, even if we don't like it or disagree. It is there to protect employees like them, and like us, and our organisation. I would hate for them to interpret it as harassment.
Professional: when someone tells us what they like to be called, and you repeatedly ignore it, it makes you look like a fool, or a jerk, or both. If you want to garner respect in an organisation, you have to give it out. If our managing director asked to be called a certain way, would you ignore it? If you wouldn't, and you would take extra care, then this is not an issue about pronouns but about respect, and given respect is so important to our organisation and so is naming, I would expect professionalism to start on our team.
Respect: Phyliss, if I started calling you something that you didn't like (like syphilis), and you asked me not to, but I kept doing it cause I didn't care, how would that make you feel? If your were at the beginning of your career, how would that make you feel about working here, working in this sector, and when you came home each night? We don't have to understand or appreciate why they are making this request ;that they are making it is enough. It's important that we show them that this organisation doesn't just accept diversity and a person's right to be called what they want, but embraces it. I want them to look back at this organisation as a highlight in their career, and value this team and the people on it the way that I do. So please, let's make a conscious effort to use neutral genders with them, it's a little thing, and it won't make a big difference to us, but it will to them.
Ignore posters dressing up their bigotry as grammar Nazism. Both are unpalatable and have no place in a modern office.
posted by smoke at 5:00 AM on October 1, 2014 [43 favorites]
Best answer: While I vehemently disagree with all the people here who have said this is unreasonable, I would follow your supervisee's lead on this. If they let it be, let it be. If you have an opportunity, I might check with them to see if they'd like you to keep pushing your colleagues, but otherwise, sadly, let it go.
posted by ChuraChura at 5:02 AM on October 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 5:02 AM on October 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please stick to the specific questions rather than discussing your personal feelings about non-gendered pronouns. The questions are: 1) ideas for resources, articles, stories about convincing folks to get with the pronoun program and 2) is OP overstepping as a supervisor? Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:06 AM on October 1, 2014
posted by taz (staff) at 5:06 AM on October 1, 2014
I think you should ask your intern/supervisee how they feel about it. You are right to be sensitive to this person's needs and preferences. If the correct pronouns are important to them, there are a number of LBGTQ organizations that have workplace training guides that can advise you on next steps.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:10 AM on October 1, 2014
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:10 AM on October 1, 2014
Use "they, them, and theirs" yourself in work related conversation. Perhaps your lead will be followed.
"Or am I overstepping as a supervisor?" Your description sounds to me as though you are addressing a workplace issue by proxy using your supervisee. They said, "no big deal" which may mean they need the work experience or it may mean "no big deal". Take them at their word.
Don't throw them under the Bus to advocate something that you clearly and reasonably believe in.
Insist that your coworkers refer to you as "they, them, and theirs" when speaking about you. Don't use a less powerful employee as your e4 e5. They are not your pawn.
posted by vapidave at 5:11 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
"Or am I overstepping as a supervisor?" Your description sounds to me as though you are addressing a workplace issue by proxy using your supervisee. They said, "no big deal" which may mean they need the work experience or it may mean "no big deal". Take them at their word.
Don't throw them under the Bus to advocate something that you clearly and reasonably believe in.
Insist that your coworkers refer to you as "they, them, and theirs" when speaking about you. Don't use a less powerful employee as your e4 e5. They are not your pawn.
posted by vapidave at 5:11 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Asking people to change their use of the English language is over-stepping.
There are people who are very serious about grammar rules. They are sometimes called grammar Nazis.
Asking them to alter their speech away from standard grammar rules will be very hard for them,
and make them more resentful than understanding.
posted by Flood at 5:22 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are people who are very serious about grammar rules. They are sometimes called grammar Nazis.
Asking them to alter their speech away from standard grammar rules will be very hard for them,
and make them more resentful than understanding.
posted by Flood at 5:22 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It's not at all over-stepping or an unreasonable request. If I were you I'd want to wage an all-out campaign for improved understanding of gender issues in my wokrplace.
But that said, as others have suggested, you need to take your supervisee's lead here. They may care exactly enough to make the initial request, and no more. I can easily imagine that it might be much more embarrassing/horrifying/difficult for your supervisee to have their gender identity be a constant ongoing topic of in-office education and language correction than to simply have made the request, to appreciate those who comply with it, and to shrug and get on with their day rather than fighting those who don't. You might be making their workday worse rather than better if you make this A Big Deal.
Let your supervisee know you're open to working with them to find ways to improve gender identity understanding in the office, if they ever do want that. Then drop it, and just lead by example.
posted by Stacey at 5:46 AM on October 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
But that said, as others have suggested, you need to take your supervisee's lead here. They may care exactly enough to make the initial request, and no more. I can easily imagine that it might be much more embarrassing/horrifying/difficult for your supervisee to have their gender identity be a constant ongoing topic of in-office education and language correction than to simply have made the request, to appreciate those who comply with it, and to shrug and get on with their day rather than fighting those who don't. You might be making their workday worse rather than better if you make this A Big Deal.
Let your supervisee know you're open to working with them to find ways to improve gender identity understanding in the office, if they ever do want that. Then drop it, and just lead by example.
posted by Stacey at 5:46 AM on October 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
The good part: you yourself are using the pronouns Supervisee prefers --- very nice.
The bad part: yes, you certainly are overstepping your bounds to be continually correcting your coworkers.
Supervisee has flat-out told you that it's 'no big deal' that your coworkers continue to use gendered pronouns. If it was a big deal, if Supervisee said that the gendered pronouns did indeed bother them, then I think it would have been more on Supervisee to request those other coworkers use their preferred non-gendered pronouns.
Continually correcting your coworkers' grammar is in itself rude, no matter if it's a case like this or where someone continually uses the regionalisms they've always used. (Cursing is a whole 'nother matter.) So you're reacting to what you --- and only you, in this particular situation ---perceive as rudeness with rudeness of your own, even though the person you think you're supporting has directly told you it does not bother them.
To be totally honest, if I was one of your coworkers, I'd be pissed at you for trying to shove this down my throat, especially if you weren't in any way my supervisor. I'd change if Supervisee themself were to ask me to.
posted by easily confused at 5:50 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
The bad part: yes, you certainly are overstepping your bounds to be continually correcting your coworkers.
Supervisee has flat-out told you that it's 'no big deal' that your coworkers continue to use gendered pronouns. If it was a big deal, if Supervisee said that the gendered pronouns did indeed bother them, then I think it would have been more on Supervisee to request those other coworkers use their preferred non-gendered pronouns.
Continually correcting your coworkers' grammar is in itself rude, no matter if it's a case like this or where someone continually uses the regionalisms they've always used. (Cursing is a whole 'nother matter.) So you're reacting to what you --- and only you, in this particular situation ---perceive as rudeness with rudeness of your own, even though the person you think you're supporting has directly told you it does not bother them.
To be totally honest, if I was one of your coworkers, I'd be pissed at you for trying to shove this down my throat, especially if you weren't in any way my supervisor. I'd change if Supervisee themself were to ask me to.
posted by easily confused at 5:50 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It's not unreasonable - getting someone's gender correct is more important than grammar, and the use of singular "they" has been fine in English for a long, long time - but there may not be much else you can do in this instance without really overstepping, especially since you are not the supervisor of all the other people, and since your supervisee has said they are fine.
If you still want to argue from (grammar) authority, the Economist had a nice piece on the singular they not long ago.
posted by rtha at 5:55 AM on October 1, 2014 [13 favorites]
If you still want to argue from (grammar) authority, the Economist had a nice piece on the singular they not long ago.
posted by rtha at 5:55 AM on October 1, 2014 [13 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think your gentle reminders are out of order, as long as you keep them gentle and polite. Setting an example by correct usage yourself is ultimately the only aspect you can really control, however.
I personally feel that your supervisee's right not to be misgendered is more important than your other supervisees' right not to be corrected. Especially since, in these times, awareness of the gender spectrum is becoming greater and this is unlikely to be the last time such a request is made of them. What if the next nonbinary person your office works with is an important client or donor, and getting pronouns right *is* a big deal to them? Your coworkers would need to be able to adapt.
People with strong feelings about the use of English have those feelings because language is an immensely powerful thing. Words shape the idea of the thing signified. That is exactly why pronouns are important to people, especially in terms of gender.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:42 AM on October 1, 2014 [12 favorites]
I personally feel that your supervisee's right not to be misgendered is more important than your other supervisees' right not to be corrected. Especially since, in these times, awareness of the gender spectrum is becoming greater and this is unlikely to be the last time such a request is made of them. What if the next nonbinary person your office works with is an important client or donor, and getting pronouns right *is* a big deal to them? Your coworkers would need to be able to adapt.
People with strong feelings about the use of English have those feelings because language is an immensely powerful thing. Words shape the idea of the thing signified. That is exactly why pronouns are important to people, especially in terms of gender.
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:42 AM on October 1, 2014 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Don't lose your supervisee in all of this. You're not the Lorax, they're not a tree. They said this was "no big deal". They may have their own reasons for not wanting to push this too hard at this point.
Be frank with your supervisee, in a private in-person conversation, and ask them what they really need from you. Something like, "I would like the others to refer to with the correct pronouns, but as I'm sure you're used to by now, there's been some pushback. I can't speak for you, of course, but it does bother me. Would you like me to be more direct with them about this?" And if they say something like, "oh, it's no big deal", respond with something like, "well, I don't want to push anything on you, but I'm thinking that we can get them to turn around if we take a gradual approach. Is that okay?"
Change often takes time and requires finesse. They are no doubt aware that going by non-binary pronouns is not a common practice, and that requesting this pronoun use can receive pushback, and may also draw attention to them. At this point in time, they may have highly reasonable reasons to prefer that others get to know them as just a colleague, as opposed to "that person who wants to be called 'they'".
I would of course make a point to refer to them correctly. In all official correspondence, make sure that this person is referred to correctly. If and when others follow suit, I would casually thank them in private, or in passing. "Hey, thanks for coming around on the 'they' thing. It really does make things more comfortable." Don't make a big production of it: right now, the best way to sell this practice is to show that it's easy to use the correct pronouns.
However, outside of official correspondence, actively correcting people may backfire at this point. Others may well dig in their heels. To get past those defenses, you need to play the long game.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:02 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Be frank with your supervisee, in a private in-person conversation, and ask them what they really need from you. Something like, "I would like the others to refer to with the correct pronouns, but as I'm sure you're used to by now, there's been some pushback. I can't speak for you, of course, but it does bother me. Would you like me to be more direct with them about this?" And if they say something like, "oh, it's no big deal", respond with something like, "well, I don't want to push anything on you, but I'm thinking that we can get them to turn around if we take a gradual approach. Is that okay?"
Change often takes time and requires finesse. They are no doubt aware that going by non-binary pronouns is not a common practice, and that requesting this pronoun use can receive pushback, and may also draw attention to them. At this point in time, they may have highly reasonable reasons to prefer that others get to know them as just a colleague, as opposed to "that person who wants to be called 'they'".
I would of course make a point to refer to them correctly. In all official correspondence, make sure that this person is referred to correctly. If and when others follow suit, I would casually thank them in private, or in passing. "Hey, thanks for coming around on the 'they' thing. It really does make things more comfortable." Don't make a big production of it: right now, the best way to sell this practice is to show that it's easy to use the correct pronouns.
However, outside of official correspondence, actively correcting people may backfire at this point. Others may well dig in their heels. To get past those defenses, you need to play the long game.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:02 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Agreeing with the folks who say to keep using your supervisee's preferred pronouns. And gentle corrections are certainly acceptable and reasonable. If your supervisee doesn't want to push the issue, I wouldn't go much further than that.
However, if you are interested in training or having resources on hand to help people, here are some I found useful when coming out at work:
Tips for Allies of Transgender People and An Ally's Guide to Terminology from GLAAD
TransWhat: Allyship: First Steps
The Gender Book (very readable, but you'll probably only get the actively curious interested in it)
And with your location, you might find UMass's Stonewall Center helpful. They serve the surrounding community as well as the university. They have local resource lists and posters available on allyship and what gender is/isn't.
posted by carrioncomfort at 7:10 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
However, if you are interested in training or having resources on hand to help people, here are some I found useful when coming out at work:
Tips for Allies of Transgender People and An Ally's Guide to Terminology from GLAAD
TransWhat: Allyship: First Steps
The Gender Book (very readable, but you'll probably only get the actively curious interested in it)
And with your location, you might find UMass's Stonewall Center helpful. They serve the surrounding community as well as the university. They have local resource lists and posters available on allyship and what gender is/isn't.
posted by carrioncomfort at 7:10 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: So appreciate many of these responses! I suspect that my supervisee does feel uncomfortable standing up for themselves but all of you who have said that I should check in with them are right.
posted by chaiminda at 7:12 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 7:12 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Re: question #1: it's not a resource exactly, but you might consider, if folks give you a hard time about "changing the English language", pointing out that our language does change. We wouldn't walk into an office and use terms that were once considered polite ways to refer to minority racial groups in the U.S. but are now considered out of date, right? The analogy might help. Language changes, and self identification is important to respect.
(Also: thank you.)
posted by joycehealy at 7:18 AM on October 1, 2014 [6 favorites]
(Also: thank you.)
posted by joycehealy at 7:18 AM on October 1, 2014 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: joycehealy, yes, there is a very obvious example in the population we serve at work which was once referred to by a term that is now very offensive. It is a basic issue of thoughtfulness and kindness, not grammar, and I may try to point that out if my supervisee would like me to push it.
posted by chaiminda at 7:45 AM on October 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 7:45 AM on October 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, unfortunately the language prescriptivism you are seeing is really just a socially acceptable form of reinforcing bigotry, which is why your coworkers will continue openly ignoring all requests to change their ways. I would go with R317's suggestion of finding a local LGBTQ group with resources to help you get them to see the light, either via some kind of workplace workshop or simply via examples of how to explain this wholly commonplace and unremarkable situation to stubborn people.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:52 AM on October 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:52 AM on October 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Is it possible that it's unclear to your coworkers that this is an identity issue for your supervisee, and not general pedantry about preferred words? Maybe your coworkers think that supervisee wants everybody to use "they" for everybody and they think that goes to far, and therefore they ignore the request altogether? I can imagine that if your coworkers haven't met anybody with a non standard gender identity before, it may not even occur to them that this has anything to do with that.
posted by blub at 9:03 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by blub at 9:03 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think you are in a position to force anyone to refer someone as they/them and I think it would be inappropriate if you start pushing it, especially if the intern is idly sitting by saying it's "no big deal." It doesn't sound like you are the boss in this situation and the intern has already said it's fine, so you and only you will be the one stirring up workplace drama. It's not as if co-workers are dropping the N-word and being asked to stop. They are using a language mechanic they've used every single day for their entire lives, which is to refer to a singular person as he or she, and it is probably genuinely easy to slip or forget. If you want to gently say something, you can, but when you start pushing for this and trying to force people to do it, you will be overstepping your bounds and you're probably going to end up annoying your co-workers. If the intern isn't that bothered by it, I wouldn't risk alienating all your co-workers on a crusade.
I have to imagine the intern hears he or she everyday when they leave the house to do anything. "They" is not a common way to refer to one person, unless you don't actually know the person's gender or unless being asked not to use it. So I think the fact that, as the intern's supervisor, you are taking the request seriously and have made an effort to get others on board is enough. You can't force your supervisor to share your concern, given the conversation you relayed having with your supervisor. I'd be annoyed if someone badgered me about using the English language correctly because I kept forgetting about an exception.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:43 AM on October 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
I have to imagine the intern hears he or she everyday when they leave the house to do anything. "They" is not a common way to refer to one person, unless you don't actually know the person's gender or unless being asked not to use it. So I think the fact that, as the intern's supervisor, you are taking the request seriously and have made an effort to get others on board is enough. You can't force your supervisor to share your concern, given the conversation you relayed having with your supervisor. I'd be annoyed if someone badgered me about using the English language correctly because I kept forgetting about an exception.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:43 AM on October 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Heaven forbid a cis person be "annoyed," gee whiz!
Thank you for being an ally, chaiminda. If you think that you can talk to your supervisee without making them feel cornered, it would definitely be best to ask them how to be supportive. They could very well be downplaying how important this is to them in an effort not to cause a fuss at a new job, and even if they ask you not to escalate with HR it would probably mean a lot to them to have at least one other person in the office who gets it.
posted by Corinth at 12:05 PM on October 1, 2014 [13 favorites]
Thank you for being an ally, chaiminda. If you think that you can talk to your supervisee without making them feel cornered, it would definitely be best to ask them how to be supportive. They could very well be downplaying how important this is to them in an effort not to cause a fuss at a new job, and even if they ask you not to escalate with HR it would probably mean a lot to them to have at least one other person in the office who gets it.
posted by Corinth at 12:05 PM on October 1, 2014 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Follow up: talked to supervisee and they would like me to continue correcting people and they may send out some informational materials to the other staff. Thanks all who gave helpful advice!
posted by chaiminda at 1:28 PM on October 1, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 1:28 PM on October 1, 2014 [10 favorites]
I am going to make a third attempt to post my views; I find it very disheartening that instead of answering the content of my posts, or simply ignoring them altogether, people have flagged them and asked them to be removed. I'm answering the stated question and doing so in a perfectly civil manner; just because you may not like the content of what I have to say doesn't mean you should be able to silence me. This isn't what I took metafilter to be all about. OK, back to the issue at hand.
Yes, I think you are overstepping your bounds as a supervisor. In a workplace people must abide by anti discrimination laws and the specific codes of the company. Epithets should never be tolerated, but binary pronouns aren't epithets.
There are many injustices in the world, and these injustices can be very important to people, but no one has a right to demand that other people abide by their conception of justice when this goes beyond the laws of the land or the code of the company. For example, I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and this is central to my conception of myself. While I don't like watching other people eat meat, I certainly don't think I have a right to a meat free kitchen at work.
I think it is inappropriate for you as a supervisor to attempt to enforce your mentee's conception of justice by constantly correcting your colleagues' use of pronouns. You have done well by listening to them, changing your own use of pronouns, and informing your colleagues of this issue. Hopefully, some of them will end up deferring to your colleague's wishes, but you or your mentee don't have a right to demand that others change their behavior to accord with your mentee's particular conception of justice any more than I have a right to demand a meat free kitchen at work. Continuing to correct you colleagues is wrong, in my opinion. And I will stress that I say this as a progressive person, on the side of righteousness, who thinks it would be great if we recognized a third gender in this society.
posted by girl flaneur at 10:36 PM on October 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yes, I think you are overstepping your bounds as a supervisor. In a workplace people must abide by anti discrimination laws and the specific codes of the company. Epithets should never be tolerated, but binary pronouns aren't epithets.
There are many injustices in the world, and these injustices can be very important to people, but no one has a right to demand that other people abide by their conception of justice when this goes beyond the laws of the land or the code of the company. For example, I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and this is central to my conception of myself. While I don't like watching other people eat meat, I certainly don't think I have a right to a meat free kitchen at work.
I think it is inappropriate for you as a supervisor to attempt to enforce your mentee's conception of justice by constantly correcting your colleagues' use of pronouns. You have done well by listening to them, changing your own use of pronouns, and informing your colleagues of this issue. Hopefully, some of them will end up deferring to your colleague's wishes, but you or your mentee don't have a right to demand that others change their behavior to accord with your mentee's particular conception of justice any more than I have a right to demand a meat free kitchen at work. Continuing to correct you colleagues is wrong, in my opinion. And I will stress that I say this as a progressive person, on the side of righteousness, who thinks it would be great if we recognized a third gender in this society.
posted by girl flaneur at 10:36 PM on October 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
I agree with the folks who say to check with the supervisee before proceeding. I'm happy they work in a place with a supervisor who's got their back though :D
Here is a friendly 101 about the use of gender-neutral pronouns, courtesy Carleton College: Gender-neutral pronoun FAQ
Here's an NYT article about it: Choosing a pronoun
And here's something I might discreetly show to your supervisor: Gender-neutral employee sues for $518K; suit says employee wrongly referred to as woman.
posted by sockanalia at 11:52 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Here is a friendly 101 about the use of gender-neutral pronouns, courtesy Carleton College: Gender-neutral pronoun FAQ
Here's an NYT article about it: Choosing a pronoun
And here's something I might discreetly show to your supervisor: Gender-neutral employee sues for $518K; suit says employee wrongly referred to as woman.
posted by sockanalia at 11:52 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh! And I don't think it's overreaching to pursue this issue at all, as long as your supervisee is OK with it. I consider it to be a much more urgent interpersonal issue than whether the work kitchen is vegetarian. I think a better ethical/interpersonal analogy would be if there were a trans man at work who your colleagues called "she," or if your colleagues called a gay coworker's husband his "friend." To use the wrong pronoun is to refuse to recognize the person's identity. I'm sure your coworkers don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, and I think if they get used to neutral pronouns now, they will likely be happy to have made this mental leap later.
posted by sockanalia at 12:00 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by sockanalia at 12:00 AM on October 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
This first paragraph is a very crude description of my psyche! My understanding of gender is still mostly binary. I think I get that some people can change gender, whether by surgery or hormones or apparel and makeup, so if my boss came around and said, "Hey, Jack is now Jill and wants to be called she," I'd be on board with that. W.r.t. they/their, though, I still have an issue, because in my headspace those are reserved for persons of unknown gender. Upon meeting a person, that unknown is changed to male, female, intersex, indeterminate, or other, and they/their should no longer apply. I actually like makinglight(?)'s approach, to use zhe/zheir; this is a new entry to the category "gender" and as such it deserves its own words.
This paragraph is about how I act, given the first paragraph! So with all that in mind, if boss said to me, "Here's new hire aoeusnth, aoeusnth considers themself to be multigendered (or whatever), and they ask to be referred to as 'they/theirs' instead of 'he/his' or 'she/hers'," I'd say, "Welcome aboard, and I'd like to apologize in advance for screwing up pronoun usage in the future, so if I do, please allow me the opportunity to correct myself or gently remind me." I'd also appreciate maybe some quick reading on gender labeling; I'm sure there's a lot that I don't know. And I'd also appreciate aoeusnth's willingness to discuss their* experiences and why they feel the way they do. I don't think it's right to expect people to be ambassadors or spokespeople for their particular thing, but unfortunately until we have a generation grow up with this as a normal thing, there's going to have to be a lot of adjusting and discussing, and they'll probably have to answer questions over and over and over again until they get tired and just print a business card FAQ.
*and just typing that was, I guess "weird" is the closest word I can use, it's like part of my brain says "incorrect usage!" and another part says "I know! But it's actually correct!" And now that I've reread it a few times it's starting to sound right. Keep pushing! And good luck.
posted by disconnect at 1:42 PM on October 2, 2014
This paragraph is about how I act, given the first paragraph! So with all that in mind, if boss said to me, "Here's new hire aoeusnth, aoeusnth considers themself to be multigendered (or whatever), and they ask to be referred to as 'they/theirs' instead of 'he/his' or 'she/hers'," I'd say, "Welcome aboard, and I'd like to apologize in advance for screwing up pronoun usage in the future, so if I do, please allow me the opportunity to correct myself or gently remind me." I'd also appreciate maybe some quick reading on gender labeling; I'm sure there's a lot that I don't know. And I'd also appreciate aoeusnth's willingness to discuss their* experiences and why they feel the way they do. I don't think it's right to expect people to be ambassadors or spokespeople for their particular thing, but unfortunately until we have a generation grow up with this as a normal thing, there's going to have to be a lot of adjusting and discussing, and they'll probably have to answer questions over and over and over again until they get tired and just print a business card FAQ.
*and just typing that was, I guess "weird" is the closest word I can use, it's like part of my brain says "incorrect usage!" and another part says "I know! But it's actually correct!" And now that I've reread it a few times it's starting to sound right. Keep pushing! And good luck.
posted by disconnect at 1:42 PM on October 2, 2014
I would be tempted to frame it in terms of creating an effective and cohesive work environment, not for them - because they're really understanding of how it's a new ask for a lot of people and change is hard (and I'd repeat that part every time you speak about it because it would suck for the consequences of your advocacy being people seeing your supervisee as the problem/sensitive one) but the message it sends to everyone in the office if they see that a brand new underling's heartfelt and completely costless request about how to be called being ignored.
posted by Salamandrous at 7:24 AM on October 9, 2014
posted by Salamandrous at 7:24 AM on October 9, 2014
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posted by alex1965 at 4:05 AM on October 1, 2014 [31 favorites]