Avoiding a dispute over the move out date, and the security deposit.
September 28, 2014 12:28 PM Subscribe
This is in Seattle, WA.
I live with my landlord in a furnished house, where I rent a room. I gave more than 30 days written notice. My lease ends Tuesday, Sept 30th. I intend to be completely out of there, and completely cleaned up, by that evening, ready to hand over the keys. However, she wants to put off the key handover and walkthrough until Saturday, October 4th. Will there be legal ramifications if she does this?
As far as I can tell, she's already lost the right to the $250 security deposit by not doing a formal walkthrough at the beginning of the tenancy, and I think she knows that. We don't have a written checkin list, signed by both of us. I've been keeping things nice and civil; I feel that it's better to leave on relatively good personal terms. Thus, I want to leave the place in pristine condition, and am cleaning it really well.
However, I could see her either try to bill for cleaning which isn't up to her standards, charging for damage (there is none), or just forgetting to send it out in a timely manner. So, I want to do everything by the letter of the law, and get everything squared away by Sept 30th, in case I need to pursue legal action to get it back. (This is an extreme situation, I know, but I've had dishonest and scummy landlords in the past.). She wants to put it off till the weekend, however, as she works two jobs, and is exhausted by the end of the day. The room hasn't been rented out yet.
Will there be ramifications if it's put off until October 4th? I have no intention of staying there beyond the 30th, nor paying for the 4 prorated days into October. What happens if she refuses to do it on the night of the 30th?
As far as I can tell, she's already lost the right to the $250 security deposit by not doing a formal walkthrough at the beginning of the tenancy, and I think she knows that. We don't have a written checkin list, signed by both of us. I've been keeping things nice and civil; I feel that it's better to leave on relatively good personal terms. Thus, I want to leave the place in pristine condition, and am cleaning it really well.
However, I could see her either try to bill for cleaning which isn't up to her standards, charging for damage (there is none), or just forgetting to send it out in a timely manner. So, I want to do everything by the letter of the law, and get everything squared away by Sept 30th, in case I need to pursue legal action to get it back. (This is an extreme situation, I know, but I've had dishonest and scummy landlords in the past.). She wants to put it off till the weekend, however, as she works two jobs, and is exhausted by the end of the day. The room hasn't been rented out yet.
Will there be ramifications if it's put off until October 4th? I have no intention of staying there beyond the 30th, nor paying for the 4 prorated days into October. What happens if she refuses to do it on the night of the 30th?
Take photos of the cleaned place when you leave.
posted by brujita at 12:33 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 12:33 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
As far as I can tell, she's already lost the right to the $250 security deposit by not doing a formal walkthrough at the beginning of the tenancy
That's incorrect - a landlord merely needs to provide a "written checklist or statement specifically describing the condition and cleanliness of or existing damages to the premises and furnishings" (RCW 59.18.260). A walkthrough is not required.
Will there be ramifications if it's put off until October 4th?
Not for you. She will have four fewer days to get your deposit back. She is not obligated to have a walkthrough with you when you leave, so there's no legal issue with this.
What happens if she refuses to do it on the night of the 30th?
Nothing, but that seems to be problematic for you. If it is, mail the keys certified mail with return receipt to your landlord on Tuesday when you leave the place. This will provide you with proof that you returned the keys and vacated the unit, which starts the 14 day countdown that RCW 59.18.280 requires your landlord to return your deposit in. You don't need to walk through a place or actually hand over keys to terminate a lease - the lease is self-terminating on the date the lease ends and you've vacated the unit, which is Tuesday.
posted by saeculorum at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's incorrect - a landlord merely needs to provide a "written checklist or statement specifically describing the condition and cleanliness of or existing damages to the premises and furnishings" (RCW 59.18.260). A walkthrough is not required.
Will there be ramifications if it's put off until October 4th?
Not for you. She will have four fewer days to get your deposit back. She is not obligated to have a walkthrough with you when you leave, so there's no legal issue with this.
What happens if she refuses to do it on the night of the 30th?
Nothing, but that seems to be problematic for you. If it is, mail the keys certified mail with return receipt to your landlord on Tuesday when you leave the place. This will provide you with proof that you returned the keys and vacated the unit, which starts the 14 day countdown that RCW 59.18.280 requires your landlord to return your deposit in. You don't need to walk through a place or actually hand over keys to terminate a lease - the lease is self-terminating on the date the lease ends and you've vacated the unit, which is Tuesday.
posted by saeculorum at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing your landlord is a poor planner and won't have the money to give back to you until October 4th.
Take video and pictures the night you move out. Leave the keys. Or better, hand them over in-person on the 30th.
I don't know about your jurisdiction, but in CA a landlord has 21 days to return deposit monies.
I suggest you put the amount you expect back and your forwarding address in writing for your former landlord.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2014
Take video and pictures the night you move out. Leave the keys. Or better, hand them over in-person on the 30th.
I don't know about your jurisdiction, but in CA a landlord has 21 days to return deposit monies.
I suggest you put the amount you expect back and your forwarding address in writing for your former landlord.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 12:34 PM on September 28, 2014
If you're still in possession of the keys you could be considered to still be occupying the space, putting you on the hook for rent during that time (and possibly, though unlikely, for the whole next rental cycle.)
Return the keys when you vacate on the 30th, and she can do the walk-through on the 4th if she wants to wait. But you should not be expected to owe rent for that period.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:41 PM on September 28, 2014
Return the keys when you vacate on the 30th, and she can do the walk-through on the 4th if she wants to wait. But you should not be expected to owe rent for that period.
posted by Nerd of the North at 12:41 PM on September 28, 2014
Response by poster: ...a landlord merely needs to provide a "written checklist or statement specifically describing the condition and cleanliness of or existing damages to the premises and furnishings" (RCW 59.18.260).
This never happened. She never provided this, and she knows it. No checklist or statement or anything.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:12 PM on September 28, 2014
This never happened. She never provided this, and she knows it. No checklist or statement or anything.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:12 PM on September 28, 2014
My experience (although not in the same jurisdiction) suggests that even if you do these things, she might still end up withholding some or all of your security deposit for one reason or another, and if that amount is $250 or less, you'll probably have to eat the loss unless you're prepared to spend more than what you'd get back to fight her on it. Hopefully it won't come to that.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:14 PM on September 28, 2014
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:14 PM on September 28, 2014
Do you communicate with your landlord over email? If so, it wouldn't hurt to send an email summarizing your understanding of things in writing. You could also send this certified mail along with the keys.
Just something like:
"Hi Landlord, I know I gave notice back on [date], but I just wanted to send this to reiterate that my last day renting is September 30th. I'll meet you October 4th for the walkthrough as you requested. I understand you have until October 14th to refund my $250 deposit, so if you aren't able to do so the day of the walkthrough, my forwarding address will be [new address]."
And maybe throw in some nice comments about how much you've enjoyed living there the past few years to make sure it feels friendly.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
Just something like:
"Hi Landlord, I know I gave notice back on [date], but I just wanted to send this to reiterate that my last day renting is September 30th. I'll meet you October 4th for the walkthrough as you requested. I understand you have until October 14th to refund my $250 deposit, so if you aren't able to do so the day of the walkthrough, my forwarding address will be [new address]."
And maybe throw in some nice comments about how much you've enjoyed living there the past few years to make sure it feels friendly.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:15 PM on September 28, 2014 [5 favorites]
if that amount is $250 or less, you'll probably have to eat the loss unless you're prepared to spend more than what you'd get back to fight her on it. Hopefully it won't come to that.
For what it's worth, in most jurisdictions you can sue for the return of triple the value of any deposit withheld illegally, and it can be done in small claims court which is cheap and easy. It's almost always worth it to pursue a return of fraudulently retained security deposit money, as long as you think you have a decent case.
posted by Itaxpica at 2:09 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, in most jurisdictions you can sue for the return of triple the value of any deposit withheld illegally, and it can be done in small claims court which is cheap and easy. It's almost always worth it to pursue a return of fraudulently retained security deposit money, as long as you think you have a decent case.
posted by Itaxpica at 2:09 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
After 5 years, any 'damage' is most likely wear and tear. As for cleaning, 'broom swept' is the common standard. Consult your lease, it's probably in there. Unless there are serious issues, like holes in the walls or broken windows, you would be entitled to the entire deposit.
I would cover my ass and send an email saying:
Dear Landlord,
I will be out of the apartment and I would like to surrender the keys to you on September 30th so as not to have an issue with overstaying the lease. I will be more than happy to accommodate you by meeting with you for the walk-through and return of the keys on the 4th as we discussed, please affirm that no such claims will be made should we agree to do that. Because I have lived in the apartment for five years, I do not expect for there to be any issues necessitating withholding of any deposit funds. I expect them to be returned to me, with interest, per the terms of my lease and per statute. I enjoyed living in your property for the past 5 years.
My new address is:
123 Sesame Street
City, State, Zip
Regards,
That puts her on notice that you're expecting the whole thing, and pronto. Make sure she responds back, and put read/receipt on it so you have a time stamp as to when she read it.
It's $250, so it's not life changing money, but you don't want to give her any opportunities to flakily hang onto your dough.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:37 PM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
I would cover my ass and send an email saying:
Dear Landlord,
I will be out of the apartment and I would like to surrender the keys to you on September 30th so as not to have an issue with overstaying the lease. I will be more than happy to accommodate you by meeting with you for the walk-through and return of the keys on the 4th as we discussed, please affirm that no such claims will be made should we agree to do that. Because I have lived in the apartment for five years, I do not expect for there to be any issues necessitating withholding of any deposit funds. I expect them to be returned to me, with interest, per the terms of my lease and per statute. I enjoyed living in your property for the past 5 years.
My new address is:
123 Sesame Street
City, State, Zip
Regards,
That puts her on notice that you're expecting the whole thing, and pronto. Make sure she responds back, and put read/receipt on it so you have a time stamp as to when she read it.
It's $250, so it's not life changing money, but you don't want to give her any opportunities to flakily hang onto your dough.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:37 PM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
I expect them to be returned to me, with interest, per the terms of my lease and per statute.
RCW 59.18.270 does not require landlords to return deposit interest to the tenant.
posted by saeculorum at 2:44 PM on September 28, 2014
RCW 59.18.270 does not require landlords to return deposit interest to the tenant.
posted by saeculorum at 2:44 PM on September 28, 2014
As far as I can tell, she's already lost the right to the $250 security deposit by not doing a formal walkthrough at the beginning of the tenancy, and I think she knows that.
No comment on whether that is correct, but it certainly sounds as though she does NOT believe she has lost the right to the security deposit. That's a very strange thing to assume unless you've discussed it before. If she knew that you were absolutely owed the deposit no matter what damage you made, why would she even bother to schedule a walkthrough?
posted by acidic at 2:46 PM on September 28, 2014
No comment on whether that is correct, but it certainly sounds as though she does NOT believe she has lost the right to the security deposit. That's a very strange thing to assume unless you've discussed it before. If she knew that you were absolutely owed the deposit no matter what damage you made, why would she even bother to schedule a walkthrough?
posted by acidic at 2:46 PM on September 28, 2014
If all this fails and small claims court looms, go see the pace and action there BEFORE your court date. Very good idea.
posted by Freedomboy at 3:08 PM on September 28, 2014
posted by Freedomboy at 3:08 PM on September 28, 2014
lost the right to the $250 security deposit
As a landlord, this wording bothers me a bit. The security deposit is yours by right -- it is only hers to the extent she can claim and document eligible damage beyond normal wear and tear. The burden of proof is on her. What makes it feel like the opposite is that she has custody of the funds until the end of the lease.
I wouldn't be quite so concerned about the Oct. 4th date. If she has sent you anything written or electronic that proves this is the schedule she wants, then she really can't claim you overstayed.
If things have been, as you say, relatively civil, you may be overthinking this. Yes, there are scummy landlords out there who view the security deposit as a kind of bonus they might have to fight to keep, but all you really need to do here is be polite and firm and show that you're aware of your legal rights. Make sure you take photos of the apartment when you have it empty. It would really be out of the ordinary and a bit crazy for her to intentionally damage the apartment after your move-out in order to claim some of the deposit -- it's really sort of a wash in terms of time and expense in that case. Since you don't have any prior indication of weirdness (and you've been in the same house, so presumably you'd notice), I would relax, because this doesn't sound like that kind of landlord.
posted by dhartung at 3:08 PM on September 28, 2014
As a landlord, this wording bothers me a bit. The security deposit is yours by right -- it is only hers to the extent she can claim and document eligible damage beyond normal wear and tear. The burden of proof is on her. What makes it feel like the opposite is that she has custody of the funds until the end of the lease.
I wouldn't be quite so concerned about the Oct. 4th date. If she has sent you anything written or electronic that proves this is the schedule she wants, then she really can't claim you overstayed.
If things have been, as you say, relatively civil, you may be overthinking this. Yes, there are scummy landlords out there who view the security deposit as a kind of bonus they might have to fight to keep, but all you really need to do here is be polite and firm and show that you're aware of your legal rights. Make sure you take photos of the apartment when you have it empty. It would really be out of the ordinary and a bit crazy for her to intentionally damage the apartment after your move-out in order to claim some of the deposit -- it's really sort of a wash in terms of time and expense in that case. Since you don't have any prior indication of weirdness (and you've been in the same house, so presumably you'd notice), I would relax, because this doesn't sound like that kind of landlord.
posted by dhartung at 3:08 PM on September 28, 2014
God i hate seattle landlords. i never assume good faith anymore.
Take a a TON of pictures when you leave. Try and get her to admit in writing, even if passively, that you never did the checklist or walkthrough. IE just a quick email to the effect of "hey, so since we never did the walkthrough or a checklist what's the plan on returning the deposit? thanks" keep it super short and simple and let her say whatever she wants, don't prompt it too much.
A friend of mine just got fucked over on this sort of thing a couple months ago. I have been too. Same story, no checklist, no walkthrough. The landlord took a bunch of pictures after they had taken pictures and moved out, and basically invented messes and damage. Really insane stuff like itemized cleanup time for coins left on the floor, with a photo we still make fun of.
My story is that the apartment above me flooded and damaged my ceiling, and they tried to claim i had caused that damage... somehow.
Both times they went straight to sending me a huge itemized bill of bullshit that went ABOVE the desposit. As in, they demanded a check be sent to them for additional stuff, with threat of collections as fast as they possibly legally could. And then your only recourse is small claims.
I actually winced when i started reading this. It just reminded me of those landlords making up checklists as soon as you move out. Ugh.
I hate to sound like i'm catastrophizing, but this has happened to me twice and happened to multiple friends. To the point that i was actually chiding my current landlord to do a walkthrough with me before i even accepted the keys(even if i hadn't moved in yet, obviously) because i was so paranoid.
As for what exactly to do, i like the certified mail keys idea. And yea, lots of pictures. Mail the keys on the morning of the 30th even so they'll get postmarked that day if you can lock the door without the keys(even if it's just the handle)
posted by emptythought at 5:44 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Take a a TON of pictures when you leave. Try and get her to admit in writing, even if passively, that you never did the checklist or walkthrough. IE just a quick email to the effect of "hey, so since we never did the walkthrough or a checklist what's the plan on returning the deposit? thanks" keep it super short and simple and let her say whatever she wants, don't prompt it too much.
A friend of mine just got fucked over on this sort of thing a couple months ago. I have been too. Same story, no checklist, no walkthrough. The landlord took a bunch of pictures after they had taken pictures and moved out, and basically invented messes and damage. Really insane stuff like itemized cleanup time for coins left on the floor, with a photo we still make fun of.
My story is that the apartment above me flooded and damaged my ceiling, and they tried to claim i had caused that damage... somehow.
Both times they went straight to sending me a huge itemized bill of bullshit that went ABOVE the desposit. As in, they demanded a check be sent to them for additional stuff, with threat of collections as fast as they possibly legally could. And then your only recourse is small claims.
I actually winced when i started reading this. It just reminded me of those landlords making up checklists as soon as you move out. Ugh.
I hate to sound like i'm catastrophizing, but this has happened to me twice and happened to multiple friends. To the point that i was actually chiding my current landlord to do a walkthrough with me before i even accepted the keys(even if i hadn't moved in yet, obviously) because i was so paranoid.
As for what exactly to do, i like the certified mail keys idea. And yea, lots of pictures. Mail the keys on the morning of the 30th even so they'll get postmarked that day if you can lock the door without the keys(even if it's just the handle)
posted by emptythought at 5:44 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
You moved in five years ago; you live with your landlord; your security deposit is $250. I think you're overthinking this. She might just want to schedule the "walk-through" for a time that's convenient for her. You live in the same place...she already knows if you damaged anything. This is a total non-issue.
posted by nobejen at 8:09 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by nobejen at 8:09 PM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Roommate/Landlord has a history with me of refusing to communicate, and when it comes to items/issues with the house, she's even gone so far as to literally shout me down. This is new, hence the moving out. So, this may be more of an issue than with another person.
Plus, she once accused me of damaging a granite counter by cutting on it. Which - I always use cutting boards, it's a counter I don't use except for using a rice cooker on it, and a chef's knife can't cause a deep fissure in the counter. It took three months before I could even discuss it with her, and then she finally conceded that I don't have to worry about it.
There's also the issue of what she considers 'wear and tear' vs. other people, but as everyone else says, I've been there more than 5 years, and there's no physical damage. So this should be a nonissue. I'll take pictures and film, however, after I clean.
However, things have been a lot smoother since I gave notice, and we agreed that the 30th would be the best course of action here. So at least that's squared away, and I can deal with security deposit issues another time. The letter is an excellent idea; just debating whether or not it's worth it to put in that because there was no written down checklist and/or statement of the room condition, the entire security deposit must be returned to me.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:48 PM on September 29, 2014
Plus, she once accused me of damaging a granite counter by cutting on it. Which - I always use cutting boards, it's a counter I don't use except for using a rice cooker on it, and a chef's knife can't cause a deep fissure in the counter. It took three months before I could even discuss it with her, and then she finally conceded that I don't have to worry about it.
There's also the issue of what she considers 'wear and tear' vs. other people, but as everyone else says, I've been there more than 5 years, and there's no physical damage. So this should be a nonissue. I'll take pictures and film, however, after I clean.
However, things have been a lot smoother since I gave notice, and we agreed that the 30th would be the best course of action here. So at least that's squared away, and I can deal with security deposit issues another time. The letter is an excellent idea; just debating whether or not it's worth it to put in that because there was no written down checklist and/or statement of the room condition, the entire security deposit must be returned to me.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:48 PM on September 29, 2014
Response by poster: And I got all of the deposit back!! I already have the check.
Thanks all for the advice!
posted by spinifex23 at 11:05 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Thanks all for the advice!
posted by spinifex23 at 11:05 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by spinifex23 at 12:30 PM on September 28, 2014