Secrets, privacy, fibs or lies?
September 15, 2014 9:34 PM Subscribe
My partner frequently tells small lies. They also keep certain things secret, including behaviors they deem private. This is a lifelong strategy that long precedes me, and in many ways, has nothing to do with me, however, it drives me up the fucking wall.
My partner omits stuff or outright fibs about stuff.
Some of this is about topics they feel are private and not my business. For example, they have a long-time set of behaviors of secret eating, which they have acknowledged with me, but are not comfortable talking about in detail with me.
But also they tell small lies to avoid taking responsibility for things they fear I'll be judgey about, or stuff that they've done that they think someone will be mad at them about. For example, a common thing is they tell people (including me) they didn't get a message because they feel bad that they didn't call back right away. They have said they would never lie about anything "big", like cheating on me or, I don't really know what else falls into that category, (which is part of why this is really upsetting).
On one hand, you could frame it like no big deal: they don't bring up certain things that could cause discomfort, they tell small fibs about why they didn't return a phone call or whatever, no big deal right? Or maybe these things are none of my business?
On the other I am often visited with a fairly deep suspicion and distrust, because I don't know where the lines are of what I'll be lied to about. And even if it is only about small things, it gives me a feeling that we're just not connecting - this person won't be upfront with me and that calls into question what kind of commitment they have to this relationship.
I have thought about it, talked about it with my partner, my therapist, and close friends, and decided it's not a deal breaker. This is a thing we talk about and negotiate about. We have a lot of strengths as a couple and this person has actively responded to concerns I've brought up in the time we've been together, making changes to behaviors including this one. But I have faced the reality that although my partner is willing to work on this, and seems to be making some changes about this, they may never totally stop doing this. This seems like a pretty deeply ingrained behavior and although my partner cares very much about me and wants to do things to keep this relationship strong, they just may never be willing (or able?) to drop this all together. Again, I feel that there are so many strengths in our relationship, and I so enjoy being with this person, and feel cared for and loved by this person, I definitely want to stay together.
So metafilter, can you help me understand and strategize about this?
First of all, if you are someone who thinks it's OK to tell small "smoothing over" type of lies/fibs/untruths/whatever, can you help me understand this mind set or way of being?
Can anyone suggest strategies for us to negotiate and talk about this as a couple? I feel like we hit a wall where I'm like, "Don't do that!" and partner is like, "OK, I will try not to do that!" and I'm like, "How do I know you're not doing that when I keep catching you doing it?!" This just becomes a sad circle and I wish I had better ideas about how to work with each other about it.
So basically, insight about how to think about this in a way that has compassion for both of us, and also strategies for how to negotiate and works with this as a couple, would be really helpful.
My partner omits stuff or outright fibs about stuff.
Some of this is about topics they feel are private and not my business. For example, they have a long-time set of behaviors of secret eating, which they have acknowledged with me, but are not comfortable talking about in detail with me.
But also they tell small lies to avoid taking responsibility for things they fear I'll be judgey about, or stuff that they've done that they think someone will be mad at them about. For example, a common thing is they tell people (including me) they didn't get a message because they feel bad that they didn't call back right away. They have said they would never lie about anything "big", like cheating on me or, I don't really know what else falls into that category, (which is part of why this is really upsetting).
On one hand, you could frame it like no big deal: they don't bring up certain things that could cause discomfort, they tell small fibs about why they didn't return a phone call or whatever, no big deal right? Or maybe these things are none of my business?
On the other I am often visited with a fairly deep suspicion and distrust, because I don't know where the lines are of what I'll be lied to about. And even if it is only about small things, it gives me a feeling that we're just not connecting - this person won't be upfront with me and that calls into question what kind of commitment they have to this relationship.
I have thought about it, talked about it with my partner, my therapist, and close friends, and decided it's not a deal breaker. This is a thing we talk about and negotiate about. We have a lot of strengths as a couple and this person has actively responded to concerns I've brought up in the time we've been together, making changes to behaviors including this one. But I have faced the reality that although my partner is willing to work on this, and seems to be making some changes about this, they may never totally stop doing this. This seems like a pretty deeply ingrained behavior and although my partner cares very much about me and wants to do things to keep this relationship strong, they just may never be willing (or able?) to drop this all together. Again, I feel that there are so many strengths in our relationship, and I so enjoy being with this person, and feel cared for and loved by this person, I definitely want to stay together.
So metafilter, can you help me understand and strategize about this?
First of all, if you are someone who thinks it's OK to tell small "smoothing over" type of lies/fibs/untruths/whatever, can you help me understand this mind set or way of being?
Can anyone suggest strategies for us to negotiate and talk about this as a couple? I feel like we hit a wall where I'm like, "Don't do that!" and partner is like, "OK, I will try not to do that!" and I'm like, "How do I know you're not doing that when I keep catching you doing it?!" This just becomes a sad circle and I wish I had better ideas about how to work with each other about it.
So basically, insight about how to think about this in a way that has compassion for both of us, and also strategies for how to negotiate and works with this as a couple, would be really helpful.
Did your partner grow up in an abusive or otherwise deeply dysfunctional family? Don't laugh, but I didn't realize this was a thing I did, and that it was abnormal, until I read a Cracked post about things people who grew up in these situations do. I recognized myself, and it hurt. I can't tell you why I used to tell those minor lies, other than from some old pattern of protecting myself, distancing myself, and having some minor control over my world. Your partner might be interested in some therapy themselves, either specifically on this issue or whatever else might be underlying it.
If it comes from the same source as my issues, then keep in mind that this may be basically a kind of scar tissue. It might not be easy to break it up. (I quit doing this myself, about 99.9%, but sometimes my anxiety issues intersect with old patterns, and then it's really not easy. It sounds like anxiety is an issue for your partner, too.)
Good luck to both of you.
posted by kutsushita nyanko at 9:44 PM on September 15, 2014 [84 favorites]
If it comes from the same source as my issues, then keep in mind that this may be basically a kind of scar tissue. It might not be easy to break it up. (I quit doing this myself, about 99.9%, but sometimes my anxiety issues intersect with old patterns, and then it's really not easy. It sounds like anxiety is an issue for your partner, too.)
Good luck to both of you.
posted by kutsushita nyanko at 9:44 PM on September 15, 2014 [84 favorites]
I'm not sure if it's much of a consolation, but you're not alone in noticing this in a loved one or having issues with it. I know someone with a couple of family members who lie. One of them tells quite big lies, like reversing roles with someone else when recounting an event and portraying himself as the innocent (or hard-done-by) party. I'm still not sure whether he's actually convinced himself that the lies are actually the truth, or whether he's intentionally gaslighting. The other family member mostly tells white lies and fibs along the same lines as your partner. The kind of lies that will help them get out of doing something without having to say no.
I can understand it on the one hand, because sometimes it is easier to get out of things by making up a different reason. Completely made up example: "Oh, sorry, I can't give you a lift today because my car's making a funny noise and I need to get it looked at." (Rather than: "I can't give you a lift because I would like to run a couple of errands instead.") The end result is that they are off the hook for giving the other person a lift, and they also don't have to worry that they've offended the person because the reason they said no is something outside of their control.
On the other hand, it's annoying because you wish that they felt assertive and comfortable enough to say the real reason. You think they should know that you would respond reasonably to it. "Oh! Yeah, of course I don't mind if you run some errands. I can take the bus."
Does your partner have trouble being assertive?
Maybe you could try different strategies to work around this. Maybe it's okay for your partner to omit some minor details, but that if you ask a reasonable question they practise answering honestly. ie. You leave a message and your partner doesn't call back. If you ask, "Did you get my message?" They have to practise being honest about it. "Yes, I got your message. I didn't call back because I [was busy]/[knew I would see you later]/[was lazy]." Perhaps over time they will feel more comfortable being more forthcoming, because they will realise that terrible things don't happen when they tell the truth.
Or maybe you will realise that you don't want them to be honest about everything! Sometimes it's better not to know everything.
On the secret eating: it's probably for the best that your partner doesn't talk about this too much with you, that is therapist territory.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 10:29 PM on September 15, 2014
I can understand it on the one hand, because sometimes it is easier to get out of things by making up a different reason. Completely made up example: "Oh, sorry, I can't give you a lift today because my car's making a funny noise and I need to get it looked at." (Rather than: "I can't give you a lift because I would like to run a couple of errands instead.") The end result is that they are off the hook for giving the other person a lift, and they also don't have to worry that they've offended the person because the reason they said no is something outside of their control.
On the other hand, it's annoying because you wish that they felt assertive and comfortable enough to say the real reason. You think they should know that you would respond reasonably to it. "Oh! Yeah, of course I don't mind if you run some errands. I can take the bus."
Does your partner have trouble being assertive?
Maybe you could try different strategies to work around this. Maybe it's okay for your partner to omit some minor details, but that if you ask a reasonable question they practise answering honestly. ie. You leave a message and your partner doesn't call back. If you ask, "Did you get my message?" They have to practise being honest about it. "Yes, I got your message. I didn't call back because I [was busy]/[knew I would see you later]/[was lazy]." Perhaps over time they will feel more comfortable being more forthcoming, because they will realise that terrible things don't happen when they tell the truth.
Or maybe you will realise that you don't want them to be honest about everything! Sometimes it's better not to know everything.
On the secret eating: it's probably for the best that your partner doesn't talk about this too much with you, that is therapist territory.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 10:29 PM on September 15, 2014
It sounds to me like you haven't really tried to understand it from your partner's point of view. Why would they be doing this? Is it a habit picked up from a bad relationship where deception was the only way to have some autonomy? Is it because they grew up in a completely non-confrontational family or culture in which saying no was simply not done? Is it because your response to your partner doing things that you don't approve of is "judgey"? Based on the way you've framed this question, you do sound pretty judgemental and reluctant to let go of your misgivings and suspicions of someone you apparently love very much. I can understand why it would seem easier for your partner to just not tell you things than risk your "judginess", even if that tendency is part of the problem for you.
Consider also - you haven't mentioned genders in here so this may be completely off the mark. However, in general, women are socialised to please others, to learn how to smooth things over and get along, to sacrifice their own desires and opinions in favour of someone else's. Sometimes this is such a deeply-ingrained tendency that they may not even be aware that they do it. An example which may be less emotionally-loaded and is completely made-up: she really prefers tea to coffee first thing in the morning. But you prefer coffee, and it's not that she hates coffee, she would just prefer to have tea. But it's too much trouble to ask for something different, or make something different, so she makes a pot of coffee for you both, or doesn't ask you for a cup of tea. Because coffee is okay, and keeping things easy and smooth is more important.
As emptythought says above, it's okay if you're not okay with this. But you know? It's also okay for your partner not to be okay with you having a problem with these fibs. I think it sounds like your partner is bending over backwards to accommodate you, to change themselves for you. That alone would be setting off my warning bells. There are also plenty of people who wouldn't be bothered by the social smoothing this sounds like, and wouldn't make your partner afraid of being judged.
We are strangers on the internet and I can't tell whether you are controlling or your partner is a pathological liar or somewhere in between. But if you really want to work through this issue, try to understand your partner. If you can't, I don't think that it's a good relationship.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:50 PM on September 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
Consider also - you haven't mentioned genders in here so this may be completely off the mark. However, in general, women are socialised to please others, to learn how to smooth things over and get along, to sacrifice their own desires and opinions in favour of someone else's. Sometimes this is such a deeply-ingrained tendency that they may not even be aware that they do it. An example which may be less emotionally-loaded and is completely made-up: she really prefers tea to coffee first thing in the morning. But you prefer coffee, and it's not that she hates coffee, she would just prefer to have tea. But it's too much trouble to ask for something different, or make something different, so she makes a pot of coffee for you both, or doesn't ask you for a cup of tea. Because coffee is okay, and keeping things easy and smooth is more important.
As emptythought says above, it's okay if you're not okay with this. But you know? It's also okay for your partner not to be okay with you having a problem with these fibs. I think it sounds like your partner is bending over backwards to accommodate you, to change themselves for you. That alone would be setting off my warning bells. There are also plenty of people who wouldn't be bothered by the social smoothing this sounds like, and wouldn't make your partner afraid of being judged.
We are strangers on the internet and I can't tell whether you are controlling or your partner is a pathological liar or somewhere in between. But if you really want to work through this issue, try to understand your partner. If you can't, I don't think that it's a good relationship.
posted by Athanassiel at 10:50 PM on September 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
As you seem to know, this isn't something you can fix on your own. It is something your partner has to willingly work on with you (as in, partner must genuinely want to change the behavior, rather than just say they will to placate you during an argument). It seems pretty clear that this behavior stems from anxiety, fear, and insecurity - feelings that admitting to whatever partner did "wrong" will make you think less of them, will reveal them to be a bad, unreliable person, will lead to an ugly fight, etc. No doubt something in your partner's past led to this pattern of behavior, and the power that those fears still have over them.
Having partner work with a therapist whom they like and trust to better understand and change this pattern seems like the best option.
If that is not workable, or in addition to it, you and your partner need to tackle this as, well, partners. Rather than you being the blaming angry one and your partner being the bad, apologetic one. Even though this is a totally legitimate thing to be upset about, being angry isn't going to help your partner get over those negative feelings they lie to cope with.
If you notice that there are particular situations or areas where your partner lies, try discussing them in a constructive way (e.g. when neither of you are upset). You should recognize that your partner acts this way due to feelings that are real and valid, and that come from a place that needs love and healing, not judgment and lecturing. Partner should recognize that their valid feelings are leading them to behaviors that are unhelpful and that in fact are causing the very thing they are designed to avoid: conflict with you and your unhappiness.
Try to, in a nonjudgmental, loving way, talk to your partner about what they think will happen if they tell the truth about X (e.g. about having gotten a message but been to busy to return a call). What is the thing they're afraid of that the lie is designed to avoid? Is there something you can do to reassure them (not just during this conversation but in the actual situation) that the bad thing isn't going to happen? Can you talk through how you would feel and react to being told the truth (didn't have time to respond to message) instead of the lie? Be willing to do whatever you can to help your partner lie less and feel reassured in situations where their anxiety encourages them to lie. Possibly even make an actual plan, like agree that there is a particular thing you can say to reassure partner that telling the truth won't ruin things, or what your partner can say to themselves to be reminded that they are secure in your love. Your partner is living in an emotionally dangerous world, where it is more important to placate the forces of potential destruction than to tell the truth. You need to help them understand (both by conversation and by your actions) that the world - at least the part of it you share - is safe, and find out what will help your partner to believe that enough to start acting on it.
Also, when you talk to your partner about how this bothers you, do you explain why it bothers you? Your partner may feel that you are being picky and sensitive about "normal" behavior, because that is what they are used to. They might be more understanding of your feelings if you could articulate that knowing you are frequently lied to makes the whole world unreliable? That for example, you never know if any message got through? That it makes everything partner says suspect? That for you this means living in a world where you can't draw a clear distinction between what's real and what's fake, and that creates a lot of anxiety and resentment? Understanding that this has major negative consequences for you (not simply because it's an irritating foible, but because it really messes with your head) may help motivate your partner to address this behavior that to them seems minor and normal.
I hope you can both work through this and become even happier together!
posted by unsub at 10:50 PM on September 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Having partner work with a therapist whom they like and trust to better understand and change this pattern seems like the best option.
If that is not workable, or in addition to it, you and your partner need to tackle this as, well, partners. Rather than you being the blaming angry one and your partner being the bad, apologetic one. Even though this is a totally legitimate thing to be upset about, being angry isn't going to help your partner get over those negative feelings they lie to cope with.
If you notice that there are particular situations or areas where your partner lies, try discussing them in a constructive way (e.g. when neither of you are upset). You should recognize that your partner acts this way due to feelings that are real and valid, and that come from a place that needs love and healing, not judgment and lecturing. Partner should recognize that their valid feelings are leading them to behaviors that are unhelpful and that in fact are causing the very thing they are designed to avoid: conflict with you and your unhappiness.
Try to, in a nonjudgmental, loving way, talk to your partner about what they think will happen if they tell the truth about X (e.g. about having gotten a message but been to busy to return a call). What is the thing they're afraid of that the lie is designed to avoid? Is there something you can do to reassure them (not just during this conversation but in the actual situation) that the bad thing isn't going to happen? Can you talk through how you would feel and react to being told the truth (didn't have time to respond to message) instead of the lie? Be willing to do whatever you can to help your partner lie less and feel reassured in situations where their anxiety encourages them to lie. Possibly even make an actual plan, like agree that there is a particular thing you can say to reassure partner that telling the truth won't ruin things, or what your partner can say to themselves to be reminded that they are secure in your love. Your partner is living in an emotionally dangerous world, where it is more important to placate the forces of potential destruction than to tell the truth. You need to help them understand (both by conversation and by your actions) that the world - at least the part of it you share - is safe, and find out what will help your partner to believe that enough to start acting on it.
Also, when you talk to your partner about how this bothers you, do you explain why it bothers you? Your partner may feel that you are being picky and sensitive about "normal" behavior, because that is what they are used to. They might be more understanding of your feelings if you could articulate that knowing you are frequently lied to makes the whole world unreliable? That for example, you never know if any message got through? That it makes everything partner says suspect? That for you this means living in a world where you can't draw a clear distinction between what's real and what's fake, and that creates a lot of anxiety and resentment? Understanding that this has major negative consequences for you (not simply because it's an irritating foible, but because it really messes with your head) may help motivate your partner to address this behavior that to them seems minor and normal.
I hope you can both work through this and become even happier together!
posted by unsub at 10:50 PM on September 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
you've got two separate things. i would never lie to a relationship partner, i would say "yeah, i got your message, but i was indisposed to answer it in the timeframe you set forth." i would be uncomfortable in a relationship where my partner lied to me about such things.
keeping secrets is totally different, there's a lot of stuff i wouldn't ever tell anyone, in regard to "secret eating", i'm not accountable to anyone for everything i eat, and i would expect my partner to have secrets i don't want to hear.
posted by bruce at 10:51 PM on September 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
keeping secrets is totally different, there's a lot of stuff i wouldn't ever tell anyone, in regard to "secret eating", i'm not accountable to anyone for everything i eat, and i would expect my partner to have secrets i don't want to hear.
posted by bruce at 10:51 PM on September 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
I have done this. For me, it is/was 100% family of origin trauma that I had carried over to interacting with everyone else. Telling the truth about "bad" things/thoughts/feelings often led to screaming and emotionally manipulative punishments, whereas being good at lying on my feet meant being left alone or even favored. Mostly the "real" world doesn't work like that, but in some aspects it does; certainly often enough that it's easy for me to decide that giving a blunt and/or factual answer is only going to make a situation more stressful. This was/is especially true if I considered the question invasive. Ask me something like, "Have you ever kept a journal?" without context and I'd be very likely to knee-jerk deny it because it's irrelevant to you but could potentially be used to hurt me.
The peace I've made with this is that, if I want to be friends with someone, I gradually give them bigger and bigger nuggets of truth about more and more scary/vulnerable things, and as long as they don't respond in an abusive way, I keep going with them. Over time this has meant that my baseline level for interacting with people has become more honest/open, and there are several people I don't lie to at all except sometimes accidentally, and then I correct myself.
For what it's worth, I completely understand about not lying about "big things", and I always have had a sense of what would be a lie too big for a relationship (in the generic sense) to continue. Avoiding those big lies actually is a sign of commitment and respect, as backwards as that might sound. Being in an accident, getting ticketed, being diagnosed with a medical problem or having a known issue get worse, making big changes in meds, getting in a fight, lending more than maybe ~$50 to someone...these are all things I'd definitely tell about without waiting for them to become pertinent, though it might take me a day to work up to some of them. Wasting an afternoon bumming around when I should have been working? For my partner and some close friends, I'd (now) push through the impulse to not tarnish their impression of me. Other people, I might well decide can assume what they like. One of my parents, I'd go out of my way to not bring up the topic. However, even in the case of my partner, there's definitely a level where inanity and privacy intersect. Food isn't really my shame, but getting lost down certain embarrassing Internet rabbit holes could very well fall into that category. Sometimes I do just tell though, because it's really rather marvelous that they laugh and life moves on and nothing bad happens.
When it comes to actually changing this behavior, fundamentally that's on your partner. You can however help them through lies you're aware of, kind of like when you know someone's not really "fine" and you coax them into opening up. Insofar as possible, try not to be mad at them for the thing they were hiding. Rationally stating your feelings and working through the problem is one thing, just don't freak out. Them saying they didn't get your call is probably a nice safe place to start, since being sucked into a shame spiral where now you're not doing something because you haven't done it is a pretty common thing. Try not to frame it as "catching" them so much as gently letting them know that you know what they're doing and it makes you upset/sad. If they do open up about something on their own though, don't be too grumpy about if it's somewhat belated; being on something resembling an acceptable schedule might actually represent a pretty big effort on their part.
Personally, I decided a couple of years ago that I was doing a major disservice to most of humanity by treating them like they were probably awful. I think the biggest thing besides that has been being surrounded by a variety of genuinely safe and forgiving people, while keeping the worst elements of my birth family quite distant and well-contained. Being able to tell their secrets that I protected so long (like how I was treated) has been especially great. It's also nice that my partner understands why I lie to/fail to tell my parents about certain things, and doesn't object without good cause.
posted by teremala at 11:52 PM on September 15, 2014 [34 favorites]
The peace I've made with this is that, if I want to be friends with someone, I gradually give them bigger and bigger nuggets of truth about more and more scary/vulnerable things, and as long as they don't respond in an abusive way, I keep going with them. Over time this has meant that my baseline level for interacting with people has become more honest/open, and there are several people I don't lie to at all except sometimes accidentally, and then I correct myself.
For what it's worth, I completely understand about not lying about "big things", and I always have had a sense of what would be a lie too big for a relationship (in the generic sense) to continue. Avoiding those big lies actually is a sign of commitment and respect, as backwards as that might sound. Being in an accident, getting ticketed, being diagnosed with a medical problem or having a known issue get worse, making big changes in meds, getting in a fight, lending more than maybe ~$50 to someone...these are all things I'd definitely tell about without waiting for them to become pertinent, though it might take me a day to work up to some of them. Wasting an afternoon bumming around when I should have been working? For my partner and some close friends, I'd (now) push through the impulse to not tarnish their impression of me. Other people, I might well decide can assume what they like. One of my parents, I'd go out of my way to not bring up the topic. However, even in the case of my partner, there's definitely a level where inanity and privacy intersect. Food isn't really my shame, but getting lost down certain embarrassing Internet rabbit holes could very well fall into that category. Sometimes I do just tell though, because it's really rather marvelous that they laugh and life moves on and nothing bad happens.
When it comes to actually changing this behavior, fundamentally that's on your partner. You can however help them through lies you're aware of, kind of like when you know someone's not really "fine" and you coax them into opening up. Insofar as possible, try not to be mad at them for the thing they were hiding. Rationally stating your feelings and working through the problem is one thing, just don't freak out. Them saying they didn't get your call is probably a nice safe place to start, since being sucked into a shame spiral where now you're not doing something because you haven't done it is a pretty common thing. Try not to frame it as "catching" them so much as gently letting them know that you know what they're doing and it makes you upset/sad. If they do open up about something on their own though, don't be too grumpy about if it's somewhat belated; being on something resembling an acceptable schedule might actually represent a pretty big effort on their part.
Personally, I decided a couple of years ago that I was doing a major disservice to most of humanity by treating them like they were probably awful. I think the biggest thing besides that has been being surrounded by a variety of genuinely safe and forgiving people, while keeping the worst elements of my birth family quite distant and well-contained. Being able to tell their secrets that I protected so long (like how I was treated) has been especially great. It's also nice that my partner understands why I lie to/fail to tell my parents about certain things, and doesn't object without good cause.
posted by teremala at 11:52 PM on September 15, 2014 [34 favorites]
If it's a people-pleasing thing, try the 10/10 method, where you say "Can you pick up the laundry today?" and they can go "I really don't want to, like 6/10, how important is this?" and you can say "It's fine, it's only a 3/10 for me" or "I really need you to do it 9/10". It works for figuring out what's polite and what's really necessary.
posted by viggorlijah at 11:54 PM on September 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by viggorlijah at 11:54 PM on September 15, 2014 [16 favorites]
Echoing things that have been said before: I come from a family of liars, spinners and manipulators. My sister and I have laughed about our apparently inherited tendency to lie about incredibly dumb things, to no possible advantage. We can laugh about it now but as kids it was really disturbing to sense how much our parents lied. Beneath that there was a ton of other dysfunction.
When you're having a relationship with someone like this, I think it's good to keep in mind that they have a terrible trust problem. They don't trust other people. They don't have a lot of trust in themselves either. Well, that sounds absolute, put that way. But I think you want to watch out for trust issues in general which may be bigger than the fairly random and easy to detect lying.
posted by BibiRose at 2:01 AM on September 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
When you're having a relationship with someone like this, I think it's good to keep in mind that they have a terrible trust problem. They don't trust other people. They don't have a lot of trust in themselves either. Well, that sounds absolute, put that way. But I think you want to watch out for trust issues in general which may be bigger than the fairly random and easy to detect lying.
posted by BibiRose at 2:01 AM on September 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
My father behaves like this. In recent years when I've caught him being deceptive or manipulative to me or someone else I try to pointedly say that acting this way is hurtful to people who love him. When it's a case of him using little fabrications to push someone else into acceding to his preferences or to otherwise get his way, I tell him "If you want x, just say you want x and we can talk about it, don't just make up a bunch of shit to create an appearance that what you want is objectively superior or the only possible way to do things."
My mother blamed some of these behaviors on him having been an only child with no siblings. I've developed another theory recently: he's a baby boomer and his own father, my grandfather, served in WWII. My own siblings and I have had limited contact with our grandfather due to living at a great distance. But from what I've been able to gather, I think that my grandfather regularly lies about what he experienced during the war because he finds it painful to talk about, but wants to accede to other people's interest in it; so after being badgered enough about it he apparently does things like pick stories out of popular culture about WWII and tells them as if they were something that happened to him, and uses other misdirection to avoid the subject.
So, my theory is that my father picked up on this behavior on my grandfather's part at an early age and imitated it and since it was effective as a tactic for some social interactions, it became reflexive and he never stopped. Part of what led me to this idea is that a sibling went through a phase where they lied constantly, I think from observing our father do it, though by adulthood they seemed to have grown out of it.
posted by Sockpuppet Liberation Front at 2:31 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
My mother blamed some of these behaviors on him having been an only child with no siblings. I've developed another theory recently: he's a baby boomer and his own father, my grandfather, served in WWII. My own siblings and I have had limited contact with our grandfather due to living at a great distance. But from what I've been able to gather, I think that my grandfather regularly lies about what he experienced during the war because he finds it painful to talk about, but wants to accede to other people's interest in it; so after being badgered enough about it he apparently does things like pick stories out of popular culture about WWII and tells them as if they were something that happened to him, and uses other misdirection to avoid the subject.
So, my theory is that my father picked up on this behavior on my grandfather's part at an early age and imitated it and since it was effective as a tactic for some social interactions, it became reflexive and he never stopped. Part of what led me to this idea is that a sibling went through a phase where they lied constantly, I think from observing our father do it, though by adulthood they seemed to have grown out of it.
posted by Sockpuppet Liberation Front at 2:31 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've done the secret eating thing, too. It seems ridiculous, because eating isn't "secret" so much as "none of anyone's business," but in my case it was a shame thing: I wasn't supposed to even want "bad" food, ever.
Looking back on it, in school I frequently lied to save face: homework or a project would be too hard for me, and since I was afraid to ask for help I'd just not do it and tell my parents I had no homework, and then they'd be confused, angry, and disappointed when I brought home Cs on my report card. In my case, it wasn't any sort of dysfunctional environment. Instead, it was that I was praised early on for my intelligence, good grades, and good behavior, and I was shy, anxious and conflict-averse, so I was terrified of making mistakes. I was a perfectionist, but the bad kind of perfectionist: if I couldn't get something right, I just wouldn't try, and cover it up with "I forgot" or "I wasn't interested." I even lied when I knew, absolutely knew, that I was right about something, but speaking up felt too confrontational.
I've mostly broken that habit, though I still have the occasional instance at work where I'm stuck on a task and "forget" about it for a while.
Here's what helped me: people not caring. Obviously, you should care if your partner promises to do something, fails to follow through, and lies about it, especially if it directly affects you. But for things like "secret eating" that hurt no one and aren't really anyone else's business, well, if no one cares there's no reason to keep it a secret. When you find out about something like that, shrug it off as best you can, even if you're upset about the lie; once they realize there's no harm when someone discovers it, they'll be less likely to hide it in the future.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:48 AM on September 16, 2014 [20 favorites]
Looking back on it, in school I frequently lied to save face: homework or a project would be too hard for me, and since I was afraid to ask for help I'd just not do it and tell my parents I had no homework, and then they'd be confused, angry, and disappointed when I brought home Cs on my report card. In my case, it wasn't any sort of dysfunctional environment. Instead, it was that I was praised early on for my intelligence, good grades, and good behavior, and I was shy, anxious and conflict-averse, so I was terrified of making mistakes. I was a perfectionist, but the bad kind of perfectionist: if I couldn't get something right, I just wouldn't try, and cover it up with "I forgot" or "I wasn't interested." I even lied when I knew, absolutely knew, that I was right about something, but speaking up felt too confrontational.
I've mostly broken that habit, though I still have the occasional instance at work where I'm stuck on a task and "forget" about it for a while.
Here's what helped me: people not caring. Obviously, you should care if your partner promises to do something, fails to follow through, and lies about it, especially if it directly affects you. But for things like "secret eating" that hurt no one and aren't really anyone else's business, well, if no one cares there's no reason to keep it a secret. When you find out about something like that, shrug it off as best you can, even if you're upset about the lie; once they realize there's no harm when someone discovers it, they'll be less likely to hide it in the future.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:48 AM on September 16, 2014 [20 favorites]
I can't touch the secret eating part, because I'm not familiar with that behavior. But this I can speak to:
First of all, if you are someone who thinks it's OK to tell small "smoothing over" type of lies/fibs/untruths/whatever, can you help me understand this mind set or way of being?
I used to tell these fibs all the time.
When I was a kid money was tight and my parents' marriage was bad. This led to tension that I was aware of as early as I can remember. So I became a tiny "fixer" and would tell little lies to smooth things over both inside and outside the house. Don't upset anyone. Don't rock the boat. If someone is sad/mad, make them feel better.
Example 1, child: "A wants me to go hang out at her house Saturday, but Dad hits the bar that night, and I'd need a ride but Mom'll be upset because Dad's at the bar. I'm not allowed to tell A what's really going on and I don't want to hurt A's feelings by just saying 'no' so I'll tell her we have a family wedding to go to."
I knew every fib was wrong to tell, but ones like the example above protected my family's image, me from Mom getting irritated with my ride request, and my friendship with A.
Example 2, adult: I'm weeping over a bad day at work. The phone rings. It's Mom. I don't feel like talking right now, but I can't really answer the phone and tell her that because it'll hurt her feelings. Nor can I tell her I chose not to answer when I saw her name, because that'll hurt her feelings too. So I'll just say my iPhone was in the sofa cushions.
Everyone wins except me. The downside was always remembering to make up stories to cover the little lies. Which is what made me stop as an adult. I still feel badly when I upset people, and Mom still gets upset when I say I didn't feel like answering the telephone, but not fibbing is better for me in the long run.
posted by kimberussell at 3:58 AM on September 16, 2014 [30 favorites]
First of all, if you are someone who thinks it's OK to tell small "smoothing over" type of lies/fibs/untruths/whatever, can you help me understand this mind set or way of being?
I used to tell these fibs all the time.
When I was a kid money was tight and my parents' marriage was bad. This led to tension that I was aware of as early as I can remember. So I became a tiny "fixer" and would tell little lies to smooth things over both inside and outside the house. Don't upset anyone. Don't rock the boat. If someone is sad/mad, make them feel better.
Example 1, child: "A wants me to go hang out at her house Saturday, but Dad hits the bar that night, and I'd need a ride but Mom'll be upset because Dad's at the bar. I'm not allowed to tell A what's really going on and I don't want to hurt A's feelings by just saying 'no' so I'll tell her we have a family wedding to go to."
I knew every fib was wrong to tell, but ones like the example above protected my family's image, me from Mom getting irritated with my ride request, and my friendship with A.
Example 2, adult: I'm weeping over a bad day at work. The phone rings. It's Mom. I don't feel like talking right now, but I can't really answer the phone and tell her that because it'll hurt her feelings. Nor can I tell her I chose not to answer when I saw her name, because that'll hurt her feelings too. So I'll just say my iPhone was in the sofa cushions.
Everyone wins except me. The downside was always remembering to make up stories to cover the little lies. Which is what made me stop as an adult. I still feel badly when I upset people, and Mom still gets upset when I say I didn't feel like answering the telephone, but not fibbing is better for me in the long run.
posted by kimberussell at 3:58 AM on September 16, 2014 [30 favorites]
First of all, if you are someone who thinks it's OK to tell small "smoothing over" type of lies/fibs/untruths/whatever, can you help me understand this mind set or way of being?
I'll help. I don't lie directly to my wife (not that I'm aware of). But I don't let her know about most of my smaller purchases day-to-day, which is a lie of omission. If she notices an Amazon package I'll own up to what it is and it's no big deal. But generally she's unaware of how often I purchase things.
Why do I tell these lies of omission? Because the amount of conflict we have over small purchases is completely out of line with said purchases, and it’s just not worth it. Each month I track our finances in detail and we are consistently exceeding our lofty savings goals. Essentially, we can afford all of these small purchases without problem and still put away more money than we planned. But if she were aware of all of these small purchases, they would become sources of conflict despite the fact that they're not impacting our financial situation. She comes from a family that had to scrimp and save on everything they could, where any expenditure was fraught with worry. Every purchase, even one that is easily within our budget, is met with negative emotions. If I run a totally-within-our-budget purchase by her, she second-guesses me and it becomes a conflict.
Basically, I lie by omission about small things because a) they don’t matter in the grand scheme of things and b) being too forthright – clearing every purchase beforehand – would lead to completely unnecessary conflict. Am I happy about the situation? No, I wish I could be completely forthright. But given that my options are either to lie, to give up my favorite hobbies completely and become resentful, or to have simmering resentment about being constantly hounded about my so-small-they-don’t-break-the-budget purchases, I choose the lies of omission.
We also have a situation to yours that might be instructive. My wife often forgets to respond to my messages, and I often forget to respond to hers. But neither of us ever has to get defensive, make excuses, or lie. Why? Because both of us believe it is 100% okay for the other not to respond. We know we’ll just talk later. If I want a response, it’s up to me to ask when we’re together rather than to stew because my email didn’t get answered. The difference between the purchases and messages is pretty obvious: the purchases lead to lies because there’s judgement involved, while the forgotten messages don’t lead to lies because it’s safe in our household to miss messages.
This isn’t to say that you are judging your SO. I can’t tell that from your question. But these little lies could come from a fear of judgement. So a likely step towards making this better (maybe not fixing it entirely, but decreasing the problem) is making sure your SO feels safe in these instances. For example, if your partner is working on being more honest when they forget to respond to your messages or take too long to call back, and you make them feel bad about not responding or ask them to be better about responding, you are fighting against their improvement. Instead, it has to be totally 100% okay not to respond to messages right away. If it isn’t 100% okay, then lying is incentivised.
posted by Tehhund at 5:33 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'll help. I don't lie directly to my wife (not that I'm aware of). But I don't let her know about most of my smaller purchases day-to-day, which is a lie of omission. If she notices an Amazon package I'll own up to what it is and it's no big deal. But generally she's unaware of how often I purchase things.
Why do I tell these lies of omission? Because the amount of conflict we have over small purchases is completely out of line with said purchases, and it’s just not worth it. Each month I track our finances in detail and we are consistently exceeding our lofty savings goals. Essentially, we can afford all of these small purchases without problem and still put away more money than we planned. But if she were aware of all of these small purchases, they would become sources of conflict despite the fact that they're not impacting our financial situation. She comes from a family that had to scrimp and save on everything they could, where any expenditure was fraught with worry. Every purchase, even one that is easily within our budget, is met with negative emotions. If I run a totally-within-our-budget purchase by her, she second-guesses me and it becomes a conflict.
Basically, I lie by omission about small things because a) they don’t matter in the grand scheme of things and b) being too forthright – clearing every purchase beforehand – would lead to completely unnecessary conflict. Am I happy about the situation? No, I wish I could be completely forthright. But given that my options are either to lie, to give up my favorite hobbies completely and become resentful, or to have simmering resentment about being constantly hounded about my so-small-they-don’t-break-the-budget purchases, I choose the lies of omission.
We also have a situation to yours that might be instructive. My wife often forgets to respond to my messages, and I often forget to respond to hers. But neither of us ever has to get defensive, make excuses, or lie. Why? Because both of us believe it is 100% okay for the other not to respond. We know we’ll just talk later. If I want a response, it’s up to me to ask when we’re together rather than to stew because my email didn’t get answered. The difference between the purchases and messages is pretty obvious: the purchases lead to lies because there’s judgement involved, while the forgotten messages don’t lead to lies because it’s safe in our household to miss messages.
This isn’t to say that you are judging your SO. I can’t tell that from your question. But these little lies could come from a fear of judgement. So a likely step towards making this better (maybe not fixing it entirely, but decreasing the problem) is making sure your SO feels safe in these instances. For example, if your partner is working on being more honest when they forget to respond to your messages or take too long to call back, and you make them feel bad about not responding or ask them to be better about responding, you are fighting against their improvement. Instead, it has to be totally 100% okay not to respond to messages right away. If it isn’t 100% okay, then lying is incentivised.
posted by Tehhund at 5:33 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
First of all, if you are someone who thinks it's OK to tell small "smoothing over" type of lies/fibs/untruths/whatever, can you help me understand this mind set or way of being?
Have you really tried understanding why it's not? You're going to need to if you really want to talk to them about this. You're conflating a lot of things here into an incredibly broad characterization scheme "truth=good" vs "any deviation from truth=bad", and that's fairly unconvincing.
The only example of an actual lie you've given is "opps, missed your message". On the scale of lies, that's just above "sure, you're hair looks nice today". Is there a reason for this one in particular? Have you been upset at them for missing messages in the past? Are you holding them to unreasonable standards?
You're framing this has if they just do it as if it's a force of habit, unbound to what's actually happening. Consider that may be mistaken: even if it's not a conscious choice, they may be employing this particular tool as a reaction to what's happening.
On the other I am often visited with a fairly deep suspicion and distrust,
Are you sure this has been caused by this situation? Or were you always suspicious? I ask, because the default reaction to someone who is frequently distrustful isn't to be more upfront and honest.
posted by spaltavian at 6:05 AM on September 16, 2014 [9 favorites]
Have you really tried understanding why it's not? You're going to need to if you really want to talk to them about this. You're conflating a lot of things here into an incredibly broad characterization scheme "truth=good" vs "any deviation from truth=bad", and that's fairly unconvincing.
The only example of an actual lie you've given is "opps, missed your message". On the scale of lies, that's just above "sure, you're hair looks nice today". Is there a reason for this one in particular? Have you been upset at them for missing messages in the past? Are you holding them to unreasonable standards?
You're framing this has if they just do it as if it's a force of habit, unbound to what's actually happening. Consider that may be mistaken: even if it's not a conscious choice, they may be employing this particular tool as a reaction to what's happening.
On the other I am often visited with a fairly deep suspicion and distrust,
Are you sure this has been caused by this situation? Or were you always suspicious? I ask, because the default reaction to someone who is frequently distrustful isn't to be more upfront and honest.
posted by spaltavian at 6:05 AM on September 16, 2014 [9 favorites]
Oh, man, I would just let all of this stuff go. Your partner sounds really insecure, and giving her the third degree about it is just going to make it harder.
Also, sometimes it is hard to maintain a sense of privacy when you're in a couple. Like, really, you need to know everything she eats? That is really none of your business. Like, really, you're "catching" her in a lie when she says she read that article in the New Yorker and you're pretty sure she didn't?
The saying she didn't get a message when she obviously did is tedious, but it's not hurting you, and it's obvious that she does it out of anxiety or insecurity and not malice.
Especially since, let's face it, you're being a tad hypocritical here. I'm sure you tell people they look great when they don't, pretend to like food at dinner parties because it would be rude to say, "THIS IS DISGUSTING GET IT AWAY FROM ME," and pretend there was more traffic than there perhaps really was if you find yourself running late. "I never got your voicemail" is in the same league.
posted by Sara C. at 6:16 AM on September 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
Also, sometimes it is hard to maintain a sense of privacy when you're in a couple. Like, really, you need to know everything she eats? That is really none of your business. Like, really, you're "catching" her in a lie when she says she read that article in the New Yorker and you're pretty sure she didn't?
The saying she didn't get a message when she obviously did is tedious, but it's not hurting you, and it's obvious that she does it out of anxiety or insecurity and not malice.
Especially since, let's face it, you're being a tad hypocritical here. I'm sure you tell people they look great when they don't, pretend to like food at dinner parties because it would be rude to say, "THIS IS DISGUSTING GET IT AWAY FROM ME," and pretend there was more traffic than there perhaps really was if you find yourself running late. "I never got your voicemail" is in the same league.
posted by Sara C. at 6:16 AM on September 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
But also they tell small lies to avoid taking responsibility for things they fear I'll be judgey about, or stuff that they've done that they think someone will be mad at them about.
I had an ex who did this. In his case it came, I think, from a really bad family situation as a child where lying to keep things secret, or to avoid getting in trouble and the very bad consequences of getting in trouble, was just what everybody did.
So he lied about little things, and I let it go and tried to have compassion for where it came from even though the behaviour itself drove me nuts. (See: about six hundred conversations along the lines of "Did you sort out the new curtains?"/"Yep."/"Why did you say you'd sorted out the new curtains when you haven't?"/"I didn't say that."/"Yes you did, now we have no curtains and the shops are closed!"/"Well I knew you'd be annoyed with me!"/"Well I'm annoyed with you now..." etc.)
And then it turned out he was also lying about some really really big things, like "our landlord is taking legal action against us because I haven't paid the rent" type of things. And he'd promised me he would never lie about any big things, but it turned out he was (surprise!) not telling the truth.
So dishonesty is a dealbreaker for me now, especially if it's conflict-avoiding dishonesty. If you can't even have a conversation with me about something minor like how you used the last of the milk and forgot to buy more, how can I trust you to have a direct and honest conversation with me about anything more serious?
posted by Catseye at 7:44 AM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
I had an ex who did this. In his case it came, I think, from a really bad family situation as a child where lying to keep things secret, or to avoid getting in trouble and the very bad consequences of getting in trouble, was just what everybody did.
So he lied about little things, and I let it go and tried to have compassion for where it came from even though the behaviour itself drove me nuts. (See: about six hundred conversations along the lines of "Did you sort out the new curtains?"/"Yep."/"Why did you say you'd sorted out the new curtains when you haven't?"/"I didn't say that."/"Yes you did, now we have no curtains and the shops are closed!"/"Well I knew you'd be annoyed with me!"/"Well I'm annoyed with you now..." etc.)
And then it turned out he was also lying about some really really big things, like "our landlord is taking legal action against us because I haven't paid the rent" type of things. And he'd promised me he would never lie about any big things, but it turned out he was (surprise!) not telling the truth.
So dishonesty is a dealbreaker for me now, especially if it's conflict-avoiding dishonesty. If you can't even have a conversation with me about something minor like how you used the last of the milk and forgot to buy more, how can I trust you to have a direct and honest conversation with me about anything more serious?
posted by Catseye at 7:44 AM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Unless your partner can learn to say directly to you, "I'm not comfortable answering right now" or "I am not going to answer" this is a bad situation for both of you.
You are enabling by default and your partner is continuing a pattern that is ultimately self-destructive.
It sounds like when you are standing by while your partner fibs, then you are torn between feeling protective of your partner, embarrassed by your partner, and sharing the frustration of whomever is being lied to.
Maybe work with your therapist, or just your own head, to come up with a time line and plan - if you don't see X signs of real improvement by a specific date, then you either decide this is not your problem and you will ignore it in the same way you would ignore it if someone wanted to quit smoking, but couldn't. Or, you admit you cannot cope with your partner's problem and leave.
You can provide - and appear to be providing - support and encouragement and a safe space. However, this is your partner's problem to solve.
And this is a serious problem. Your partner is either constantly feeling guilt, regularly being okay with disrespectful behavior, or maybe even frequently adrenalized by the idea that only a quick lie that might be found out has prevented punishment, for now. Your partner trust no one - that's awful.
In short, either partner is okay with treating people badly or always waiting for the axe to fall. That's no way to live.
Right now, you are stuck in the limbo of waiting for someone to change. That's also no way to live. Give up on change or make sure you are seeing real signs that your partner is doing the work to change.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
You are enabling by default and your partner is continuing a pattern that is ultimately self-destructive.
It sounds like when you are standing by while your partner fibs, then you are torn between feeling protective of your partner, embarrassed by your partner, and sharing the frustration of whomever is being lied to.
Maybe work with your therapist, or just your own head, to come up with a time line and plan - if you don't see X signs of real improvement by a specific date, then you either decide this is not your problem and you will ignore it in the same way you would ignore it if someone wanted to quit smoking, but couldn't. Or, you admit you cannot cope with your partner's problem and leave.
You can provide - and appear to be providing - support and encouragement and a safe space. However, this is your partner's problem to solve.
And this is a serious problem. Your partner is either constantly feeling guilt, regularly being okay with disrespectful behavior, or maybe even frequently adrenalized by the idea that only a quick lie that might be found out has prevented punishment, for now. Your partner trust no one - that's awful.
In short, either partner is okay with treating people badly or always waiting for the axe to fall. That's no way to live.
Right now, you are stuck in the limbo of waiting for someone to change. That's also no way to live. Give up on change or make sure you are seeing real signs that your partner is doing the work to change.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I do this. Like other people in this thread, I come from an abusive family where telling the truth about small things (accurately reporting weight gain or number of mistakes on a spelling test) led to physical, verbal, and emotional violence. I also had an abusive romantic partner about a decade ago.
And, like, I'm in my 30's, professional, highly educated, schamncy job, wonderfully supportive and loving partner. With all that, it STILL took me until last year until I realized how many small lies I was telling on a regular basis. I was with my partner for five years, two of them married, before I could physically bring myself to say something like, "I didn't eat my packed lunch. I had lunch out with friends" or "Like a doofus, I left my phone at home, and that's why I wasn't picking up."
In contrast, Mr. Machine grew up in a family where abuse was rarely directed at him/has not been in an abusive relationship. He is unable to hold a lie through, like, a 45 minute car ride. It's STUNNING to me and my sister how bad he is at it.
But also they tell small lies to avoid taking responsibility for things they fear I'll be judgey about, or stuff that they've done that they think someone will be mad at them about. For example, a common thing is they tell people (including me) they didn't get a message because they feel bad that they didn't call back right away. They have said they would never lie about anything "big", like cheating on me or, I don't really know what else falls into that category, (which is part of why this is really upsetting).
That's pretty much me in a nutshell. Mr. Machine and I have talked about how I would never commit a major breach of financial trust by buying those $700 shoes that we've discussed how we can't afford right now-- but by God, it's a struggle telling him the truth about the trashy $1.99 Kindle book I bought the other day and that we can 100000000000% afford.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:19 AM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
And, like, I'm in my 30's, professional, highly educated, schamncy job, wonderfully supportive and loving partner. With all that, it STILL took me until last year until I realized how many small lies I was telling on a regular basis. I was with my partner for five years, two of them married, before I could physically bring myself to say something like, "I didn't eat my packed lunch. I had lunch out with friends" or "Like a doofus, I left my phone at home, and that's why I wasn't picking up."
In contrast, Mr. Machine grew up in a family where abuse was rarely directed at him/has not been in an abusive relationship. He is unable to hold a lie through, like, a 45 minute car ride. It's STUNNING to me and my sister how bad he is at it.
But also they tell small lies to avoid taking responsibility for things they fear I'll be judgey about, or stuff that they've done that they think someone will be mad at them about. For example, a common thing is they tell people (including me) they didn't get a message because they feel bad that they didn't call back right away. They have said they would never lie about anything "big", like cheating on me or, I don't really know what else falls into that category, (which is part of why this is really upsetting).
That's pretty much me in a nutshell. Mr. Machine and I have talked about how I would never commit a major breach of financial trust by buying those $700 shoes that we've discussed how we can't afford right now-- but by God, it's a struggle telling him the truth about the trashy $1.99 Kindle book I bought the other day and that we can 100000000000% afford.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:19 AM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
They have said they would never lie about anything "big", like cheating on me or, I don't really know what else falls into that category, (which is part of why this is really upsetting).
It seems like it would be worthwhile to talk about this further with your partner. It may be a difficult conversation, but if you are able to reach a point where you both understand & agree what type of thing is okay (or okay-enough) to fib about, and what type of thing is harmful to lie about, I think you'll both be more comfortable with the status quo.
posted by insectosaurus at 8:52 AM on September 16, 2014
It seems like it would be worthwhile to talk about this further with your partner. It may be a difficult conversation, but if you are able to reach a point where you both understand & agree what type of thing is okay (or okay-enough) to fib about, and what type of thing is harmful to lie about, I think you'll both be more comfortable with the status quo.
posted by insectosaurus at 8:52 AM on September 16, 2014
Some of this is expediency. I may ask Husbunny, "did you scoop the cat box like I asked?" He'll say "yes," hoping that I'll just skip it, and he'll just scoop twice as much later. Sometimes, I can just tell he's making it up and I'll say, "really?" Mostly my nose tells me this.
That's basically laziness trying to win out over cleanliness. Sometimes it works, most of the time, it doesn't.
Secret eating...just leave that be. Eating is so fundmental and disordered eating (if this is what that is) is SO monumental an issue that as long as you're not noticing any behaviors that are impacting the health of your partner, this is for your partner to deal with and no one else.
Social fibs to other people, eh, who does it hurt? I'd let that one go unless it impacts you in some way.
The big thing is that you say it's not a deal-breaker, but it so IS! It erodes the trust in your relationship and it makes you uneasy at the least and suspicious at the most.
You're not happy with the behavior, your partner isn't going to stop any time soon. So....you have a decision to make.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:00 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's basically laziness trying to win out over cleanliness. Sometimes it works, most of the time, it doesn't.
Secret eating...just leave that be. Eating is so fundmental and disordered eating (if this is what that is) is SO monumental an issue that as long as you're not noticing any behaviors that are impacting the health of your partner, this is for your partner to deal with and no one else.
Social fibs to other people, eh, who does it hurt? I'd let that one go unless it impacts you in some way.
The big thing is that you say it's not a deal-breaker, but it so IS! It erodes the trust in your relationship and it makes you uneasy at the least and suspicious at the most.
You're not happy with the behavior, your partner isn't going to stop any time soon. So....you have a decision to make.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:00 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I am beyond sympathetic about this problem, but that doesn't keep it from corroding the trust in your relationship, and I hope that motivates your partner to get a handle on this.
My sister dated a secret eater and someone who had an iffy relationship with the truth. For him it seemed to be shame-oriented (a specific fetish, a specific self image that didn't line up with his real world image that others saw, some misguided ideas about what people wanted from him) but it wound up being toxic in their relationship because my sister was totally hands-off and assumed that as long as she knew the scope of things, she could manage it. But it really did slop over into the rest of their lives. He'd have secret blogs/facebook accounts that she didn't know about, he'd flirt with people on facebook in one of his personas (stuff that was outside the bounds of what was okay in their relationship, I'm not saying it has to be outside the bounds of other people's), he had an unsteady relationship with the truth.
And this, to me, was the main problem. It was unclear if he understood what the truth was and what was the difference between a white lie "Yeah those jeans look okay on you" and what would be something that was more important "Yes I'm committed to this relationship and won't fool around with other people" Unless you can agree with someone about where these lines lie in the first place, you don't really have a solid basis on which to negotiate how to treat one another in a way that honors both of your feelings on the subject. It's a great topic for couples counseling, someone who can give you a hopefully dispassionate safe space to tease out these issues because as people point out above, it's not as simple as "This is true and this is a lie" but more along the lines of what is your business, as a partner, to know about and what is a decent standard of truth-telling within a relationship?
My sister's boyfriend eventually broke up with her during a dark period that she put up with because she felt like they were "working on things." He rented a new apartment and told her that he had already signed a lease and was moving out in less than 48 hours. It was a super classless way to wrap up a six year relationship and looking back on it, more of his behavior made him seem a bit like a sociopath and not just someone who liked to have a personal snack cupboard. Make sure you know the difference between what's just a little thing and what is a big thing. I, personally, wouldn't be able to put up with any of this "I didn't get the message" stuff, but I'm not you, so you need to figure out where to draw those lines.
posted by jessamyn at 11:13 AM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
My sister dated a secret eater and someone who had an iffy relationship with the truth. For him it seemed to be shame-oriented (a specific fetish, a specific self image that didn't line up with his real world image that others saw, some misguided ideas about what people wanted from him) but it wound up being toxic in their relationship because my sister was totally hands-off and assumed that as long as she knew the scope of things, she could manage it. But it really did slop over into the rest of their lives. He'd have secret blogs/facebook accounts that she didn't know about, he'd flirt with people on facebook in one of his personas (stuff that was outside the bounds of what was okay in their relationship, I'm not saying it has to be outside the bounds of other people's), he had an unsteady relationship with the truth.
And this, to me, was the main problem. It was unclear if he understood what the truth was and what was the difference between a white lie "Yeah those jeans look okay on you" and what would be something that was more important "Yes I'm committed to this relationship and won't fool around with other people" Unless you can agree with someone about where these lines lie in the first place, you don't really have a solid basis on which to negotiate how to treat one another in a way that honors both of your feelings on the subject. It's a great topic for couples counseling, someone who can give you a hopefully dispassionate safe space to tease out these issues because as people point out above, it's not as simple as "This is true and this is a lie" but more along the lines of what is your business, as a partner, to know about and what is a decent standard of truth-telling within a relationship?
My sister's boyfriend eventually broke up with her during a dark period that she put up with because she felt like they were "working on things." He rented a new apartment and told her that he had already signed a lease and was moving out in less than 48 hours. It was a super classless way to wrap up a six year relationship and looking back on it, more of his behavior made him seem a bit like a sociopath and not just someone who liked to have a personal snack cupboard. Make sure you know the difference between what's just a little thing and what is a big thing. I, personally, wouldn't be able to put up with any of this "I didn't get the message" stuff, but I'm not you, so you need to figure out where to draw those lines.
posted by jessamyn at 11:13 AM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yes, I echo Ruthless Bunny: this is obviously a deal breaker.. if by "deal" you mean "your ability to trust your partner and create a healthy and loving relationship".
The reason I say this is a deal breaker for you is because you wrote
I am often visited with a fairly deep suspicion and distrust, because I don't know where the lines are of what I'll be lied to about. And even if it is only about small things, it gives me a feeling that we're just not connecting - this person won't be upfront with me
and that calls into question what kind of commitment they have to this relationship.
So, whether you like it or not, your partner's lack of integrity has (rightfully) broken your trust. There is nothing you can do to un-do that reality.
This is a thing we talk about and negotiate about.
How can you negotiate with someone you fundamentally cannot trust?
We have a lot of strengths as a couple and this person has actively responded to concerns I've brought up in the time we've been together, making changes to behaviors including this one.
Um.. not to be rude, but how do you know this? Literally: How do you know that the strengths and responses you've observed are actually as they are, if you cannot trust your partner and, in your own words "don't know where the lines are of what I'll be lied to about"..?
I don't agree with others who've suggested that you can ask your partner to tell you what they will and won't lie about. Don't you see how much of a losing battle that is, given that you literally cannot trust their response?
Telling the truth is not something you can convince someone else to do. You can negotiate someone else's integrity. Your partner is not a child that you can train into truth-telling. You can't change another adult.
I feel that there are so many strengths in our relationship, and I so enjoy being with this person, and feel cared for and loved by this person, I definitely want to stay together.
Then you had better get ready for a life-time of lies, of not knowing what to believe, and that awful, gnawing feeling in your gut that you fundamentally can't trust the person lying next to you in bed. Since you are determined to stay in this relationship lacking in trust and connection, then your best bet is to just lower your expectations for truth-telling and settle for a reality in which you will never quite know what the "reality" is.
Some coping strategies:
1. Continue therapy.
2. Take up a new hobby.. perhaps volunteer, help out in your community, serve others.
3. Read this.
4. Fully accept that you have a partner who is a liar. Stop trying to change them.
5. Keep a journal, if you don't already, to record the horrible feelings you will continue to have.
posted by Gray Skies at 11:14 AM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
The reason I say this is a deal breaker for you is because you wrote
I am often visited with a fairly deep suspicion and distrust, because I don't know where the lines are of what I'll be lied to about. And even if it is only about small things, it gives me a feeling that we're just not connecting - this person won't be upfront with me
and that calls into question what kind of commitment they have to this relationship.
So, whether you like it or not, your partner's lack of integrity has (rightfully) broken your trust. There is nothing you can do to un-do that reality.
This is a thing we talk about and negotiate about.
How can you negotiate with someone you fundamentally cannot trust?
We have a lot of strengths as a couple and this person has actively responded to concerns I've brought up in the time we've been together, making changes to behaviors including this one.
Um.. not to be rude, but how do you know this? Literally: How do you know that the strengths and responses you've observed are actually as they are, if you cannot trust your partner and, in your own words "don't know where the lines are of what I'll be lied to about"..?
I don't agree with others who've suggested that you can ask your partner to tell you what they will and won't lie about. Don't you see how much of a losing battle that is, given that you literally cannot trust their response?
Telling the truth is not something you can convince someone else to do. You can negotiate someone else's integrity. Your partner is not a child that you can train into truth-telling. You can't change another adult.
I feel that there are so many strengths in our relationship, and I so enjoy being with this person, and feel cared for and loved by this person, I definitely want to stay together.
Then you had better get ready for a life-time of lies, of not knowing what to believe, and that awful, gnawing feeling in your gut that you fundamentally can't trust the person lying next to you in bed. Since you are determined to stay in this relationship lacking in trust and connection, then your best bet is to just lower your expectations for truth-telling and settle for a reality in which you will never quite know what the "reality" is.
Some coping strategies:
1. Continue therapy.
2. Take up a new hobby.. perhaps volunteer, help out in your community, serve others.
3. Read this.
4. Fully accept that you have a partner who is a liar. Stop trying to change them.
5. Keep a journal, if you don't already, to record the horrible feelings you will continue to have.
posted by Gray Skies at 11:14 AM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
From an anonymous commenter:
So I do some stuff like this with my current girlfriend. Its more stuff about where I am on say Thursdays after work, she’ll ask me where I am and I’ll say work, if I’m commuting or in transit if I’m still at work. I know she works really late those days (usually until 11pm or so whereas I’m 9-5ish). It’s sort of a reflex behavior honestly, I’ve always been uncomfortable with people knowing where I am in a specific moment in time and it’s now a general thing. Similarly on weekends when I’m solo she’ll text asking what I’m up to right then without her gone and usually its playing video games. I know she’s not a huge fan, we’ve had multiple conversations and small arguments about my hobby and it’s not worth reopening that conversation I feel to say oh I’m in the middle of leveling my gnome mage. So I’ll say a movie or tv show or reading because I know that there is the potential for unnecessary friction.posted by restless_nomad at 11:55 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I know this makes me a liar in the eyes of some of the more judgmental members and not worth trusting but what I can say is there is a clear line between minor and major issues. I feel I fall pretty far on the small time side of things and don’t really beat myself up too much about it. This could be something similar to your SO or totally different, of course we’re not 100% sure of the situation in its entirety, so go with your gut I’d say.
My husband did all these things, the white lies to protect others' feelings, the white lies to protect his own image, the white lies for no apparent reason. They slid smoothly into lying about his feelings for another woman, then lies about an emotional affair with this other woman, and finally the truth about how our marriage was essentially over. Lies and gas lighting, the theme of the last two years. Ugh.
If you're feeling deep suspicion and distrust, there's probably a reason.
posted by Capri at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you're feeling deep suspicion and distrust, there's probably a reason.
posted by Capri at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well how judgey are you? There is someone in my life I would never dream of telling how I spent a pleasant afternoon because then it all starts. Everything is questioned, including the motive for choosing one hot beverage over another to the time of day, choice of company, method of transport and why I hadn't mentioned a totally spur-of-the-moment thing two days ago. And then there's a gotcha. Which is usually so beside the point I can't take it seriously. Which makes the person even more suspicious. So if your fairly frequent visits of deep suspicion and distrust mean you routinely behave like that, I have to tell you it's not your partner, it's you.
(p.s. I don't play these games any more, so if that person wants to hang around with me they have to manage their own suspicious emotions. If not, pfftttt.)
I don't know how you were brought up but have you never noticed how it's the kids with unreasonably strict parents that develop lying skills as a matter of course while the kids with reasonable, open-to-negotiation parents don't? You know, like joyceanmachine described above. You can definitely extrapolate from this into relationship situations.
Everybody does social lying unless they're incredibly socially clumsy. If you're forever drawing big inferences from minor social lying that's something to bring up with your therapist. From your Ask it does sound as if both of you bring weird issues into the relationship. IMO some of the interactions you describe seem as though they would get strong pushback from your partner if she was in a healthier place.
Obviously everyone has answered this question in the light of their own prior personal experiences. They are all really subjective answers, including mine. And none of us know you, nor your partner. So....whatever you do, don't take any of the answers here as definitive. I'd say it was back to therapy for you, and keep that open mind going.
posted by glasseyes at 1:45 PM on September 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
(p.s. I don't play these games any more, so if that person wants to hang around with me they have to manage their own suspicious emotions. If not, pfftttt.)
I don't know how you were brought up but have you never noticed how it's the kids with unreasonably strict parents that develop lying skills as a matter of course while the kids with reasonable, open-to-negotiation parents don't? You know, like joyceanmachine described above. You can definitely extrapolate from this into relationship situations.
Everybody does social lying unless they're incredibly socially clumsy. If you're forever drawing big inferences from minor social lying that's something to bring up with your therapist. From your Ask it does sound as if both of you bring weird issues into the relationship. IMO some of the interactions you describe seem as though they would get strong pushback from your partner if she was in a healthier place.
Obviously everyone has answered this question in the light of their own prior personal experiences. They are all really subjective answers, including mine. And none of us know you, nor your partner. So....whatever you do, don't take any of the answers here as definitive. I'd say it was back to therapy for you, and keep that open mind going.
posted by glasseyes at 1:45 PM on September 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
They have said they would never lie about anything "big", like cheating on me
There's a whole range of where people put the line on "cheating", anything from flirting to people who would not consider a one night stand to be cheating, and unless you negotiate what exactly would be cheating in your relationship you won't even know what your partner means by this.
it gives me a feeling that we're just not connecting - this person won't be upfront with me
This would be a dealbreaker for many people, but there are also many people who choose to stay in relationships that give them this feeling. Only you can decide if it's right for you.
posted by yohko at 1:56 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's a whole range of where people put the line on "cheating", anything from flirting to people who would not consider a one night stand to be cheating, and unless you negotiate what exactly would be cheating in your relationship you won't even know what your partner means by this.
it gives me a feeling that we're just not connecting - this person won't be upfront with me
This would be a dealbreaker for many people, but there are also many people who choose to stay in relationships that give them this feeling. Only you can decide if it's right for you.
posted by yohko at 1:56 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's lots of good advice upthread, so I'll try not to repeat too much.
So basically, insight about how to think about this in a way that has compassion for both of us, and also strategies for how to negotiate and works with this as a couple, would be really helpful.
I think the only strategy here (aside from breaking things off) is for your partner to get to the bottom of this in therapy. Yes, most people have fibbed about missing a message, but that is not the same as a partnership wherein one person's words cannot be taken at face value. That has nothing to do with privacy (see the, "I'm not willing to discuss that," suggestions--at least that's an honest response); it has everything to do with mutual trust, without which you will continue to feel the distance you mentioned, except that distance will likely turn to resentment on both sides.
Your partner will resent you for not trusting (as IF you WANT to be in that position--this is supremely frustrating), and you will resent your partner for not trusting you enough to be truthful... and for not being truthful.
I think you can tell from most of the comments that this relationship promises to be an uphill battle. I realize this was not a part of your question, but please realize that no amount of, "See, the MeFites think you should shoot straight with me!" will solve your partner's problem. Realize also that it is a problem, and not one that will be easily overcome. Please consider fleeing, because to be frank, a liar will lie about how much they will lie, and you will never feel secure in this relationship.
posted by whoiam at 2:50 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
So basically, insight about how to think about this in a way that has compassion for both of us, and also strategies for how to negotiate and works with this as a couple, would be really helpful.
I think the only strategy here (aside from breaking things off) is for your partner to get to the bottom of this in therapy. Yes, most people have fibbed about missing a message, but that is not the same as a partnership wherein one person's words cannot be taken at face value. That has nothing to do with privacy (see the, "I'm not willing to discuss that," suggestions--at least that's an honest response); it has everything to do with mutual trust, without which you will continue to feel the distance you mentioned, except that distance will likely turn to resentment on both sides.
Your partner will resent you for not trusting (as IF you WANT to be in that position--this is supremely frustrating), and you will resent your partner for not trusting you enough to be truthful... and for not being truthful.
I think you can tell from most of the comments that this relationship promises to be an uphill battle. I realize this was not a part of your question, but please realize that no amount of, "See, the MeFites think you should shoot straight with me!" will solve your partner's problem. Realize also that it is a problem, and not one that will be easily overcome. Please consider fleeing, because to be frank, a liar will lie about how much they will lie, and you will never feel secure in this relationship.
posted by whoiam at 2:50 PM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
P.S. I am so terribly sorry. This is a very unhappy situation for both of you, I know. I did not express my sympathies in my previous post, but I truly hate this for you. Otherwise good people can have trouble with truth, and that can be devastatingly difficult for partnerships. I am so sorry.
posted by whoiam at 2:53 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by whoiam at 2:53 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
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This is honestly a very realistic, down to earth outlook on this. And i mean, despite the fact that you said you've decided it isn't a dealbreaker, if you're never truly happy with this and it doesn't ever completely change, then will it be?
You are not wrong for thinking or feeling this is a deal breaker. There are people out here who are on your side of the fence on this.
I don't have any specific advice on how to deal with it, but you aren't the "broken" one who needs to bend or anything on this, and it's ok to be bothered by it. Some of this stuff is definitely above the baseline white lies stuff, like the avoid taking responsibility for things they fear I'll be judgey about thing.
I know this isn't exactly answering the question you asked, so go ahead and keep scrolling if you want. I'm sure you'll get lots of good head-on attacks on how to deal with this. But i think it's worth confronting more directly "Hey, what if this never really gets turned down to zero? am i ok with that? will i truly feel fine just tamping myself down over and over on it?".
posted by emptythought at 9:42 PM on September 15, 2014 [3 favorites]