straits of magalhaes?
October 31, 2005 9:47 PM Subscribe
Who decided that the Portuguese explorer named Fernao de Magalhaes was to be known as Ferdinand Magellan?
Did he himself use the name Magellan? If not, where did this new name first appear? Who "decided" what the English transcription would be? Was it more usual back then for surnames to be changed in different languages (there's also the whole Cristobal Colon, Cristoforo Colombo, Christopher Columbus thing too)
Did he himself use the name Magellan? If not, where did this new name first appear? Who "decided" what the English transcription would be? Was it more usual back then for surnames to be changed in different languages (there's also the whole Cristobal Colon, Cristoforo Colombo, Christopher Columbus thing too)
Still happens today. The Spaniards refer to Prince "Carlos" when referring to the UK's Prince Charles, for instance. I assume that locals try to make things as easy for themselves as possible when encountering a foreign name, which makes sense, I guess. Magellan will have been bowdlerised until it became Anglicised and then fixed in records in the form we recognise it today.
And yes, and Barcelonese will tell you that it's Cristobal Colon who stands atop his columun at the bottom of La Rambla and points... to Italy.
posted by benzo8 at 1:20 AM on November 1, 2005
And yes, and Barcelonese will tell you that it's Cristobal Colon who stands atop his columun at the bottom of La Rambla and points... to Italy.
posted by benzo8 at 1:20 AM on November 1, 2005
thus the way that English speakers still refer to various kings of France as John or Henry rather than Jean or Henri
Heck, what about the Kings of England? Norman French was long the language of the court, especially when some of them still lived in France part of the year. Later, of course, they were German ...
Was it more usual back then for surnames to be changed
It was very much normal for Latin honorifics to be used for "great men" -- q.v. Carolus Linnaeus, Nicolaus Copernicus, Averroes and Avicenna, etc.
Then there are the exceptions like John Cabot, just to throw off the rule.
Modern American practice is to bow to the original name as much as possible, but this is a relatively new development.
posted by dhartung at 2:48 AM on November 1, 2005
Heck, what about the Kings of England? Norman French was long the language of the court, especially when some of them still lived in France part of the year. Later, of course, they were German ...
Was it more usual back then for surnames to be changed
It was very much normal for Latin honorifics to be used for "great men" -- q.v. Carolus Linnaeus, Nicolaus Copernicus, Averroes and Avicenna, etc.
Then there are the exceptions like John Cabot, just to throw off the rule.
Modern American practice is to bow to the original name as much as possible, but this is a relatively new development.
posted by dhartung at 2:48 AM on November 1, 2005
I was always struck by the translations of city names and countries.
Try this one out for size: Germany is known as Deutchland in Germany, Alemania in Spain, Allemagne in French and Germania in Italian (but the adjetive German is Tedesco in Italian!).
posted by sic at 3:45 AM on November 1, 2005
Try this one out for size: Germany is known as Deutchland in Germany, Alemania in Spain, Allemagne in French and Germania in Italian (but the adjetive German is Tedesco in Italian!).
posted by sic at 3:45 AM on November 1, 2005
i've wondered about this too, since translating names is common here (chile), and i've had more than one "discussion" with people who insist on calling me andreas.
obviously a shared cultural context is necessary so that the mapping can be grounded in both cultures. one suspicion i have is that this is particularly common in spanish speaking cultures because of the catholic church - most people have traditional names recognised by the church, with their own "sain't day" (i don't know if you're aware, but calendars in such countries have a name for each day of the year, and the day on which "your" name appears is rather like a birthday). so there is an institutionalized mapping of names via catholic saints.
another interesting question is the source of the different cultural attitudes. why am i offended when someone calls me andreas? i read a book last week - the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime (iirc) - where the narrator indignantly exclaims that he doesn't want his name (christopher) to mean "carrier of christ", but to mean him. it's tempting to blame the catholics again - could this be the kind of individualism that max weber addresses?
posted by andrew cooke at 4:36 AM on November 1, 2005
obviously a shared cultural context is necessary so that the mapping can be grounded in both cultures. one suspicion i have is that this is particularly common in spanish speaking cultures because of the catholic church - most people have traditional names recognised by the church, with their own "sain't day" (i don't know if you're aware, but calendars in such countries have a name for each day of the year, and the day on which "your" name appears is rather like a birthday). so there is an institutionalized mapping of names via catholic saints.
another interesting question is the source of the different cultural attitudes. why am i offended when someone calls me andreas? i read a book last week - the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime (iirc) - where the narrator indignantly exclaims that he doesn't want his name (christopher) to mean "carrier of christ", but to mean him. it's tempting to blame the catholics again - could this be the kind of individualism that max weber addresses?
posted by andrew cooke at 4:36 AM on November 1, 2005
(that should be "saint's day")
posted by andrew cooke at 4:36 AM on November 1, 2005
posted by andrew cooke at 4:36 AM on November 1, 2005
Names are changed to protect the innocent mebbe? Cristóbal Colón magically was changed to Christopher Columbus at some point. I can't see how someone can get Columbus out of Colón but more interesting things happened on Ellis Island, or so the story goes.
posted by JJ86 at 5:17 AM on November 1, 2005
posted by JJ86 at 5:17 AM on November 1, 2005
"His name ricochets down the canyons of nearly five centuries..."
I hope this link works - it's a "look inside" to the wonderful start of the second chapter of Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire," about the middle ages. The chapter starts with the difficulty of pinning down Magellan's real name.
Anyone know how to cut and paste from this feature?
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:17 AM on November 1, 2005
I hope this link works - it's a "look inside" to the wonderful start of the second chapter of Manchester's "A World Lit Only By Fire," about the middle ages. The chapter starts with the difficulty of pinning down Magellan's real name.
Anyone know how to cut and paste from this feature?
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:17 AM on November 1, 2005
The wikipedia article about him says The King [Manuel I, of Portugal] also told Magellan that he would have no further employment in his country's service after May 15, 1514. Magellan formally renounced his nationality, and went to offer his services to the court of Spain, changing his name from "Fernão de Magalhães" to "Hernándo de Magallanes."
posted by misteraitch at 5:20 AM on November 1, 2005
posted by misteraitch at 5:20 AM on November 1, 2005
Best answer: The first answer is correct: Europeans routinely Latinized their names in those days (those with public profiles, obviously, not your standard-issue peasant), and every language would have its own local version. The wikipedia article misteraitch quotes is misleading in talking about "changing his name"; using a local variant was absolutely taken for granted and not in any way equivalent to what we consider "changing your name" (and nobody back then would have understood andrew cooke's objection to being called "Andreas").
One quibble:
It was very much normal for Latin honorifics to be used for "great men" --q.v. Carolus Linnaeus
Linnaeus does not fit in with your other examples; it was his actual family name (his father was Nils Ingemarsson Linnaeus). As it says in this biography: "In 1761 he was granted nobility, and became Carl von Linné."
posted by languagehat at 7:18 AM on November 1, 2005
One quibble:
It was very much normal for Latin honorifics to be used for "great men" --
Linnaeus does not fit in with your other examples; it was his actual family name (his father was Nils Ingemarsson Linnaeus). As it says in this biography: "In 1761 he was granted nobility, and became Carl von Linné."
posted by languagehat at 7:18 AM on November 1, 2005
I can't see how someone can get Columbus out of Colón
That's because it came from Cristoforo Colombo, his real name. Cristóbal Colón was the name the Spanish gave him.
posted by deadfather at 7:39 AM on November 1, 2005
That's because it came from Cristoforo Colombo, his real name. Cristóbal Colón was the name the Spanish gave him.
posted by deadfather at 7:39 AM on November 1, 2005
Something else to remember is that there wasn't any such thing as fixed spelling until about the 18th century. You'd spell Chris Columbus or Magellan in any way that you felt would be clear to your readers. Shaxpear and all.
posted by klangklangston at 7:59 AM on November 1, 2005
posted by klangklangston at 7:59 AM on November 1, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
Looking at the Wikipedia article, it also seems that Magallanes was the Spanish form of his name. Also consider that back in the day, it was more common for names to be converted to other languages (thus the way that English speakers still refer to various kings of France as John or Henry rather than Jean or Henri).
posted by Captain_Tenille at 10:15 PM on October 31, 2005