Alcohol 101
November 21, 2013 11:22 PM Subscribe
I just turned 21, and believe it or not, I have done very little drinking of alcohol until now.
However there is now a plethora of choice I am newly privvy to, and I am interested in trying some things out. But I would like some advice.
The only alcoholic beverage I've ever truly liked until now was a mojito, but that is because I love any mint-delivery system, drink or otherwise.
What do you folks suggest?
I am interested in trying wine, and would like to invest in trying good stuff for the best chance of finding things I would appreciate. Same for whiskey and beer.
What would be your crash course in understanding the best of what this new world has to offer?
The only alcoholic beverage I've ever truly liked until now was a mojito, but that is because I love any mint-delivery system, drink or otherwise.
What do you folks suggest?
I am interested in trying wine, and would like to invest in trying good stuff for the best chance of finding things I would appreciate. Same for whiskey and beer.
What would be your crash course in understanding the best of what this new world has to offer?
The most important thing for you to know is that alcohol is dangerous. It can sneak up on you, particularly the hard stuff, and result in sickness and poor decision making. A good habit to develop early is to alternate alcoholic drinks with non-alcoholic ones. Beer, water, beer, water, etc.
That said, the best place to explore wines is at a wine tasting. Liquor stores as well as wineries often host them, and you get to try a sip of many different wines with a guide to explain the differences.
posted by LarryC at 11:40 PM on November 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
That said, the best place to explore wines is at a wine tasting. Liquor stores as well as wineries often host them, and you get to try a sip of many different wines with a guide to explain the differences.
posted by LarryC at 11:40 PM on November 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
You will also like mint juleps.
posted by brujita at 12:04 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by brujita at 12:04 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Assuming that you are in Oakland based on your profile, I think plenty of SF/Bay Area bars will have whiskey tastings or beer flights (usually ranging from a light lager to a dark stout) that will be good introductions to varieties. If you can splurge on a higher-end place, this one looks nice. I also recommend picking a place that has food to help you pace your drinking and soak up the alcohol.
You might also want to find a spot that does fancy cocktails and go early, before the crowds, and just tell them what your flavor preferences are and see what they recommend. For years I drank gimlets because I told a SF bartender that I like lime, and she gave me the most basic lime + booze delivery system. I wish I had continued to ask for recommendations after the more creative mixologists appeared on the scene.
If you can make an excursion and have someone willing to be the designated driver, going up to Napa/Sonoma/Russian River and hitting up a few wineries is entertaining and a nice crash course in wine terminology and processes.
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:08 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
You might also want to find a spot that does fancy cocktails and go early, before the crowds, and just tell them what your flavor preferences are and see what they recommend. For years I drank gimlets because I told a SF bartender that I like lime, and she gave me the most basic lime + booze delivery system. I wish I had continued to ask for recommendations after the more creative mixologists appeared on the scene.
If you can make an excursion and have someone willing to be the designated driver, going up to Napa/Sonoma/Russian River and hitting up a few wineries is entertaining and a nice crash course in wine terminology and processes.
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:08 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
The best advice I can give you, and which you should take, is that every glass of alcohol you drink should be followed with a tall glass of water. Not a dixie cup of water; a full glass. I am literally saving you years of misery here. Please take this seriously.
Also, rye manhattans.
posted by quadog at 12:38 AM on November 22, 2013 [18 favorites]
Also, rye manhattans.
posted by quadog at 12:38 AM on November 22, 2013 [18 favorites]
Use your local liquor store, if you can find a good one. I've found a ton of excellent things I wouldn't have considered by saying, "Hey, I'm looking for (something) in the (price) range. I like (examples of that sort of thing I like)." For example, "I'm looking for a new bourbon to try, figure no more than $35 a bottle. Normally I do Forester for mixing and Four Roses if I want something a little nicer."
Likewise, if you can find a bar where the bartenders know their stuff and it's fairly quiet, you can usually say something like "I normally drink juleps and bourbon on the rocks but I want to expand my horizons, what would you suggest?" I've found they're normally happy to make something outside of the long island iced tea/shooters/alcohol plus mixer-type things most people drink. Just tip well and don't do it when the bar is 10 people deep. And even if you like those kind of drinks, talk to them a bit. I had a guy make me a Long Island with the top shelf stuff rather than the well stuff and it was fantastic.
"Well" drinks are basically whatever they have in front of them when you don't specify something and are pretty cheap, usually. So if you want "bourbon and coke", you get whatever they have on hand, but if you specify "Four Roses and Coke", then you get that brand, assuming they stock it.
Also be aware that there's a variety of flavors in most spirits, so just because you don't like one particular brand doesn't mean you don't like that entire line of spirits. For example, there's gins I won't touch, gins I'll tolerate, and gins I'll drink like water.
And lastly, my hangover prevention/remediation secret if you're going hard: 1 full glass of water for every drink and when you get home, take a multivitamin and down some Gatorade.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:42 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Likewise, if you can find a bar where the bartenders know their stuff and it's fairly quiet, you can usually say something like "I normally drink juleps and bourbon on the rocks but I want to expand my horizons, what would you suggest?" I've found they're normally happy to make something outside of the long island iced tea/shooters/alcohol plus mixer-type things most people drink. Just tip well and don't do it when the bar is 10 people deep. And even if you like those kind of drinks, talk to them a bit. I had a guy make me a Long Island with the top shelf stuff rather than the well stuff and it was fantastic.
"Well" drinks are basically whatever they have in front of them when you don't specify something and are pretty cheap, usually. So if you want "bourbon and coke", you get whatever they have on hand, but if you specify "Four Roses and Coke", then you get that brand, assuming they stock it.
Also be aware that there's a variety of flavors in most spirits, so just because you don't like one particular brand doesn't mean you don't like that entire line of spirits. For example, there's gins I won't touch, gins I'll tolerate, and gins I'll drink like water.
And lastly, my hangover prevention/remediation secret if you're going hard: 1 full glass of water for every drink and when you get home, take a multivitamin and down some Gatorade.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:42 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Given your description I would look for drinks as a complement to meals. [I don't know your preferred diet of course.]
A scotch or bourbon with something mushroomy is great.
Rum goes well with a lot of deserts.
White wine goes well with most seafood and poultry and vegetables [except asparagus, nothing goes with asparagus].
Beer is an entire category I don't dare address but similar principles obtain; lighter and crispier for warmer days - darker for darker days.
Accompanying food aside - I've enjoyed a few gin and tonics when it's hot and one well-prepared gimlet can illustrate a late spring day.
posted by vapidave at 12:50 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
A scotch or bourbon with something mushroomy is great.
Rum goes well with a lot of deserts.
White wine goes well with most seafood and poultry and vegetables [except asparagus, nothing goes with asparagus].
Beer is an entire category I don't dare address but similar principles obtain; lighter and crispier for warmer days - darker for darker days.
Accompanying food aside - I've enjoyed a few gin and tonics when it's hot and one well-prepared gimlet can illustrate a late spring day.
posted by vapidave at 12:50 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Look around for a wine tasting class. It's really worth it.
I would also suggest that you start as you mean to go on and set a daily two-drink maximum for yourself. Alcohol is, as others have said, dangerous, and once you start to have problems it's hard to go back to where you were.
posted by tel3path at 12:51 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I would also suggest that you start as you mean to go on and set a daily two-drink maximum for yourself. Alcohol is, as others have said, dangerous, and once you start to have problems it's hard to go back to where you were.
posted by tel3path at 12:51 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Top tip for any alcohol: there are better and worse quality beers, wines and spirits, but you are allowed to like whatever you want. Alcohol generally is notorious for promoting style over substance, and showing off a high ticket price as if it necessarily determines quality.
If these seems like common sense, beer and spirits especially are dominated by big brands who use marketing, rather than product quality, to create their price premium. If you spend $10 on a bottle of vodka, less than $1 is the product. It doesn't rise proportionally if you then buy a $20 bottle - much of the difference goes on things like marketing budget and manufacturer profit margin.
This doesn't mean quality isn't important: it is. And price can make a big difference. In wine, for example, going from $5 to $10 a bottle often buys you a much better wine because fixed costs of bottling, storage, distribution and taxes mean that at $5 not a lot of cash has been spent on the product itself. At $10 a bottle, the fixed costs are the same but you generally get a product which has been made with more care and attention. But above $20, for example, as the price goes up you're increasingly paying a premium for exclusivity for product from a particular winemaker or region.
Don't bother investing in great wine or spirits until you know that you can tell the difference and that you care about the difference. For wine particularly, if you are going to spend cash on above average bottles, buy some decent glasses. Get Riedel or equivalent. Nothing can change a $20 bottle into a $2 bottle and vice versa quicker than switching between crap and good glassware.
If you want to get into wine there are tons of places to read about it online and specialist magazines to buy and introductory courses. I would also suggest this approach: limit yourself to buying six types of wine:
White
- Chardonnay
- Sauvignon blanc
- Riesling
Red
- Pinot noir
- Cabernet sauvignon
- Syrah/Shiraz
There are tons of different grape varietals, and blends, of course, but the benefit of initially limiting yourself to six grapes is that you get a set of reference points - you can see what $5, $10 and $20 a bottle gets you. You can try different styles of winemaking. You can see how and where new and old world winemakers differ in their approach. You can taste for yourself how aging makes a difference to wine. You can limit your questions to you local wine shop. So, for example, you could go in and say I'd like to spend $10 a bottle on two different styles of chardonnay - at which point you'd expect a decent shop to find you a classic French style like white Burgundy or Chablis and then something from California or Australia.
posted by MuffinMan at 1:07 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
If these seems like common sense, beer and spirits especially are dominated by big brands who use marketing, rather than product quality, to create their price premium. If you spend $10 on a bottle of vodka, less than $1 is the product. It doesn't rise proportionally if you then buy a $20 bottle - much of the difference goes on things like marketing budget and manufacturer profit margin.
This doesn't mean quality isn't important: it is. And price can make a big difference. In wine, for example, going from $5 to $10 a bottle often buys you a much better wine because fixed costs of bottling, storage, distribution and taxes mean that at $5 not a lot of cash has been spent on the product itself. At $10 a bottle, the fixed costs are the same but you generally get a product which has been made with more care and attention. But above $20, for example, as the price goes up you're increasingly paying a premium for exclusivity for product from a particular winemaker or region.
Don't bother investing in great wine or spirits until you know that you can tell the difference and that you care about the difference. For wine particularly, if you are going to spend cash on above average bottles, buy some decent glasses. Get Riedel or equivalent. Nothing can change a $20 bottle into a $2 bottle and vice versa quicker than switching between crap and good glassware.
If you want to get into wine there are tons of places to read about it online and specialist magazines to buy and introductory courses. I would also suggest this approach: limit yourself to buying six types of wine:
White
- Chardonnay
- Sauvignon blanc
- Riesling
Red
- Pinot noir
- Cabernet sauvignon
- Syrah/Shiraz
There are tons of different grape varietals, and blends, of course, but the benefit of initially limiting yourself to six grapes is that you get a set of reference points - you can see what $5, $10 and $20 a bottle gets you. You can try different styles of winemaking. You can see how and where new and old world winemakers differ in their approach. You can taste for yourself how aging makes a difference to wine. You can limit your questions to you local wine shop. So, for example, you could go in and say I'd like to spend $10 a bottle on two different styles of chardonnay - at which point you'd expect a decent shop to find you a classic French style like white Burgundy or Chablis and then something from California or Australia.
posted by MuffinMan at 1:07 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
In the case of wine, most people start out with sweet white, progress to liking dry white, and then to liking red. If you want to take it gently you can add fizzy water or similar.
For beer, the established path seems to be to start with weakish lager and then progress to better lager, ales, and then stouts and porters. I don't really understand this because I would have thought a nice fruity porter would be more appealing to a noob than cooking lager, but that seems to be how it is. Again you can dilute with lemonade (in Germany it's considered normal to use Fanta or Coke, though that seems disgusting to me). Lager and lime used to be a thing and I suppose it could still work as a gentle intro.
Spirits are trickier and you might want to leave them for a later stage. You would definitely want to dilute quite heavily to begin with: water in whisky, tonic in gin, coke with rum and so on.
Regular practice with small quantities is my recommendation. Acquiring any taste may take a little time - but don't persist too long with stuff you just don't like.
posted by Segundus at 1:21 AM on November 22, 2013
For beer, the established path seems to be to start with weakish lager and then progress to better lager, ales, and then stouts and porters. I don't really understand this because I would have thought a nice fruity porter would be more appealing to a noob than cooking lager, but that seems to be how it is. Again you can dilute with lemonade (in Germany it's considered normal to use Fanta or Coke, though that seems disgusting to me). Lager and lime used to be a thing and I suppose it could still work as a gentle intro.
Spirits are trickier and you might want to leave them for a later stage. You would definitely want to dilute quite heavily to begin with: water in whisky, tonic in gin, coke with rum and so on.
Regular practice with small quantities is my recommendation. Acquiring any taste may take a little time - but don't persist too long with stuff you just don't like.
posted by Segundus at 1:21 AM on November 22, 2013
Don't bother spending a lot of money on wine. Even the 'experts' can't tell the difference. Yellow Tail is a good starter wine, I think. It's cheap, and easily available everywhere, and always drinkable.
To be honest, at 21, your main concern is not getting shitfaced, vomiting on yourself or others, doing something stupid, and how not to end up with a debilitating hang over and especially not drinking and driving or letting your friends do it.
posted by empath at 1:35 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
To be honest, at 21, your main concern is not getting shitfaced, vomiting on yourself or others, doing something stupid, and how not to end up with a debilitating hang over and especially not drinking and driving or letting your friends do it.
posted by empath at 1:35 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
vapidave has a fabulous suggestion re: pairing alcohol with food. I'll tell you whut, I first had a profound whiskey experience drinking a single malt with a beautiful roasted peach dessert in Berkeley. The caramel acidity of the peach made the whiskey amazing and vice versa. Cheese and wine parties are a thing for a reason as well, I learned to enjoy some red wines because I liked cheese so much and I appreciated how the wine made me notice the cheese differently.
posted by spamandkimchi at 2:24 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by spamandkimchi at 2:24 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Re: empath's point about 'experts' not being able to taste the difference.
The criticism is true. Wine tasting tons of wines destroy even professional critics' ability to make coherent judgments about wine quality. Additional tests have also found that where 'experts' are fed information beforehand they are capable of talking complete rubbish about wine. In short, what you expect to taste has a massive influence on what you do taste.
I disagree that these findings mean that spending money on wine is therefore a waste of money. Certainly there is a law of diminishing returns beyond a certain price. Wine tasting is subjective, and one's enjoyment of wine is improved or diminished by environmental factors and expectations. Don't let that shoo you away from ever buying more expensive wine. Sure, it can be disappointing or a waste of cash. But there are lots of amazing, hardworking winemakers who price sensibly, and from whom a $20 or $30 bottle represents a lot of care, attention, individuality and expertise from prize grapes that you just cannot find in something mass produced and tailored for a mass audience.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:24 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
The criticism is true. Wine tasting tons of wines destroy even professional critics' ability to make coherent judgments about wine quality. Additional tests have also found that where 'experts' are fed information beforehand they are capable of talking complete rubbish about wine. In short, what you expect to taste has a massive influence on what you do taste.
I disagree that these findings mean that spending money on wine is therefore a waste of money. Certainly there is a law of diminishing returns beyond a certain price. Wine tasting is subjective, and one's enjoyment of wine is improved or diminished by environmental factors and expectations. Don't let that shoo you away from ever buying more expensive wine. Sure, it can be disappointing or a waste of cash. But there are lots of amazing, hardworking winemakers who price sensibly, and from whom a $20 or $30 bottle represents a lot of care, attention, individuality and expertise from prize grapes that you just cannot find in something mass produced and tailored for a mass audience.
posted by MuffinMan at 3:24 AM on November 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
When, at 24 or so, I wanted to expand my alcohol horizons beyond hard cider and Blue Nun*, I bought a book of cocktails and found a friend who also wanted to experiment, and we instituted a weekly Cocktail Night. Buying many kinds of alcohol and mixers can get expensive, so it was nice to split the cost with someone. We had a lot of fun and I feel like I know a lot more about alcohol than if I had just stuck to typical bar drinks. If you have some friends that might be interested and a small about of spending money, I think it would be a great way to get started. You could also do wine and cheese instead of cocktails.
*not that there's anything wrong with Blue Nun. I wish I could find it around here.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 3:41 AM on November 22, 2013
*not that there's anything wrong with Blue Nun. I wish I could find it around here.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 3:41 AM on November 22, 2013
If you are in Oakland and relatively close to Berkeley, the Berkeley Bowl sells individual bottles of beer (this is not super obvious--you just take a bottle out of a six pack). For a while when we turned 21, my roommate and I were touring the beer aisle, a bottle each at a time. (We even took notes.) Anywhere that sells beer individually or has make-your-own six packs would be good for this--I just don't know where else does. (Safeway has a small selection of individual beers, though sometimes only in bigger bottles.)
I have no taste for wine, basically. I just buy whatever's inexpensive with the coolest label whenever I've had to buy wine.
posted by hoyland at 4:25 AM on November 22, 2013
I have no taste for wine, basically. I just buy whatever's inexpensive with the coolest label whenever I've had to buy wine.
posted by hoyland at 4:25 AM on November 22, 2013
Your own personal story, with relation to various types of alcohol, can be at least as important as its cost, taste, or composition. I find that if I ask most of the keen whisky drinkers I know about their favourite malt, they will tell me about something that a great friend introduced them to - or about a visit to a particularly interesting distillery. They probably could not pick it out from similar drinks in a blind test and - with a little persuasion - they would probably admit this. So - talk to other people who like a particular drink, and those who sell it. Maybe go and visit where it is made.
And despite all the valid warnings about the dangers of alcohol that people list above, I would say this: get drunk a few times and with different drinks. As with any other drug it is best to do with a little planning - some time you are with trusted friends without a need to drive anywhere, for example. Ideally you should come to know *for you* what your limits are - and this will be determined both by the way you feel and by what your friends report. It is, of course, you who needs to be master of the drink and not the other way round - but you need to go a few rounds with it to find out how that will work for you.
posted by rongorongo at 4:33 AM on November 22, 2013
And despite all the valid warnings about the dangers of alcohol that people list above, I would say this: get drunk a few times and with different drinks. As with any other drug it is best to do with a little planning - some time you are with trusted friends without a need to drive anywhere, for example. Ideally you should come to know *for you* what your limits are - and this will be determined both by the way you feel and by what your friends report. It is, of course, you who needs to be master of the drink and not the other way round - but you need to go a few rounds with it to find out how that will work for you.
posted by rongorongo at 4:33 AM on November 22, 2013
I just turned 21, and believe it or not, I have done very little drinking of alcohol until now.
Take it from a drinker: The trick in choosing what to drink is how you drink it. That is to say, you have to find a friendly relationship with alcohol that works for you over the long haul. Will you be an every Friday night get hammered binge drinker, an occasional drinker who never gets drunk, an everyday drinker, a raging alcoholic? There's a lot to choose from. I am an everyday drinker - so I know I am sitting next to an alcoholic - and that influences my choices about what I drink. If you are to be an everyday drinker, whiskey is probably a poor choice for you, mixed drinks (like rum and coke) worse, wine is better, beer is best, and water outstanding (but vile.)
If you are a binge drinker, whatever's available, don't be too picky.
If you want to be a raging alcoholic then wine is the way to go. I for many years used to know a bunch of street drunks when I lived in Atlanta and the older, more experienced ones always drank wine.
Salut!
posted by three blind mice at 4:50 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Take it from a drinker: The trick in choosing what to drink is how you drink it. That is to say, you have to find a friendly relationship with alcohol that works for you over the long haul. Will you be an every Friday night get hammered binge drinker, an occasional drinker who never gets drunk, an everyday drinker, a raging alcoholic? There's a lot to choose from. I am an everyday drinker - so I know I am sitting next to an alcoholic - and that influences my choices about what I drink. If you are to be an everyday drinker, whiskey is probably a poor choice for you, mixed drinks (like rum and coke) worse, wine is better, beer is best, and water outstanding (but vile.)
If you are a binge drinker, whatever's available, don't be too picky.
If you want to be a raging alcoholic then wine is the way to go. I for many years used to know a bunch of street drunks when I lived in Atlanta and the older, more experienced ones always drank wine.
Salut!
posted by three blind mice at 4:50 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was raised by a wine snob. I know what I am supposed to like. This does not necessarily overlap with what I do like. Besides the intro curve Segundus describes above, this new gimmick of Tim Hanni's (link below, the test and brief overviews are free; there's also a book--though I haven't bought it) has helped me immensely. I am sure there is some Forer effect involved, but the "talk dry, drink sweet" description was dead-on for me. (There is also a li ttle bit of science of taste in the questionnaire...) I think it would be a helpful starting point for a beginner....not that you should start with the most robust reds ever, if that is your type, but that if you dom't "progress" correctly when you have more exposure and experience, then there is something wrong with you, and you can't be a Wine Fan..
http://www.myvinotype.com/
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 4:56 AM on November 22, 2013
http://www.myvinotype.com/
posted by Uniformitarianism Now! at 4:56 AM on November 22, 2013
If you are interested in spirits, I would start with cocktails ans work back to unmixed spirits. Being as it's your birthday, I would splurge and go to a craft cocktail bar and try 1 or 2 nice mixed drinks (each with a different base spirit - maybe whiskey and rum to start). If you bring friends, you can all order different things and taste them with straws (you put a straw into the drink and put your finger over the top opening to trap a little tast in the straw which you tehn transport to your mouth). Cocktails are very much a "scene" right now, but the mixes are endless adn it's something that's fun to experiement with at home too as far as making your own syrups and such for drinks. And the good thing about all of this is that if you put so much focus and energy into the creation of 1 drink, you'll be more about the slow enjoyment of it rather than the get-the-fire-water-down-as-quick-as-possible-to-get-schmasted approach.
posted by WeekendJen at 5:35 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by WeekendJen at 5:35 AM on November 22, 2013
Oh and for wine, there's a brand called "barefoot" which is decent and cheap. GEt a small bottle of each variety (pinot grigion, chardonnay, savon blanc, moscato, pinot noir, riesling, white zinfandel, shiraz, merlot, cabernet) and have a little tasting party to see which kind you like best. Have pretzels or cracker (with cheese to compliment the wines!) in between each taste! Getting 1 each of the small bottles will be under $100.
posted by WeekendJen at 5:39 AM on November 22, 2013
posted by WeekendJen at 5:39 AM on November 22, 2013
I work for the CEO of a wine distributor and even he will say he thinks spending more than $10/bottle or so on an everyday drinking wine is unnecessary. You definitely are not going to appreciate the taste of an expensive wine straight out of the gate. Start with brands like Yellowtail, Robert Mondavi Private Selection, Fetzer... really anything in that $9-12 range is going to be pretty decent. I would steer clear of those sub-$7 wines you're seeing a lot of at Trader Joe's and the like - some of them are good, but not all of them are, and unless you know for sure it's worth spending the extra three or four bucks.
Try a Pimm's Cup for a brunchy cocktail if you like a mojito. I strongly dislike the taste of liquor in almost every case (even in things like a margarita that everyone seems to enjoy), but a Pimm's Cup is delicious.
posted by something something at 5:46 AM on November 22, 2013
Try a Pimm's Cup for a brunchy cocktail if you like a mojito. I strongly dislike the taste of liquor in almost every case (even in things like a margarita that everyone seems to enjoy), but a Pimm's Cup is delicious.
posted by something something at 5:46 AM on November 22, 2013
Another thought for experimentation: think beyond beer and wine. What is your alcohol made from--wheat? grapes? barley? cactus? Try ones made with other ingredients, like plum wine, mead, berry liqueurs, etc.
Think about texture. Do you like thick, smooth, bubbly, light, creamy?
And to restate, cause it really is important: don't think you need to drink a large quantity to appreciate it, a small glass will do. And do heed the advice about drinking water (and eating food) with your liquor. Many poor-quality experiences can be avoided this way.
And yes, you like what you like. Don't be afraid to decide you just don't like something even though your 'friends' do, there are infinite choices.
posted by epanalepsis at 5:55 AM on November 22, 2013
Think about texture. Do you like thick, smooth, bubbly, light, creamy?
And to restate, cause it really is important: don't think you need to drink a large quantity to appreciate it, a small glass will do. And do heed the advice about drinking water (and eating food) with your liquor. Many poor-quality experiences can be avoided this way.
And yes, you like what you like. Don't be afraid to decide you just don't like something even though your 'friends' do, there are infinite choices.
posted by epanalepsis at 5:55 AM on November 22, 2013
Regarding beer: The make-your-own six-pack and beer flight ideas are good. I'd also recommend those mixed 12-packs. They'll typically include the brewery's flagship beer, as well as a selection of less common styles (an IPA, a porter/stout, something seasonal). Start with the common microbrews like Sam Adams or New Belgium (or whatever they have in your area), and save your money for the fancy stuff once you have an idea about what you like and have the capacity to enjoy it.
Also, I think beer is often an acquired taste, similar to coffee. Maybe some people fall in love at the first sip, but it took me several years of trying it off-and-on to really start to enjoy the stuff and discover what styles I like best. My gateway beer was ultimately a stout (a nice oatmeal stout, not Guinness), which is not a terribly common style, much to my dismay. So just hang in there if you don't find something you love immediately.
posted by gueneverey at 6:45 AM on November 22, 2013
Also, I think beer is often an acquired taste, similar to coffee. Maybe some people fall in love at the first sip, but it took me several years of trying it off-and-on to really start to enjoy the stuff and discover what styles I like best. My gateway beer was ultimately a stout (a nice oatmeal stout, not Guinness), which is not a terribly common style, much to my dismay. So just hang in there if you don't find something you love immediately.
posted by gueneverey at 6:45 AM on November 22, 2013
I was in totally the same boat. I started drinking at 28, until then had never tasted wine, tequila etc.
First off, wines in the $10-$15 range are all you need. But for hard liquors, don't drink the cheap stuff. Get used to the good stuff first, and then you'll be able to tell the difference in quality. If you drink the cheap stuff, you won't get the real taste. Good stuff = good quality Mexican tequila, Cuban rum; in Canada I do like my crown royal whiskey.
Pairings actually work. The acidity of wine cuts the fat in meats and cheeses, resulting in a flavor that is superior to either alone.
A very easy red wine to like is a cabernet-sauvignon blend. California has some great ones. Eat it with a blue cheese. Even if you don't like blue cheese. Just humor me.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:48 AM on November 22, 2013
First off, wines in the $10-$15 range are all you need. But for hard liquors, don't drink the cheap stuff. Get used to the good stuff first, and then you'll be able to tell the difference in quality. If you drink the cheap stuff, you won't get the real taste. Good stuff = good quality Mexican tequila, Cuban rum; in Canada I do like my crown royal whiskey.
Pairings actually work. The acidity of wine cuts the fat in meats and cheeses, resulting in a flavor that is superior to either alone.
A very easy red wine to like is a cabernet-sauvignon blend. California has some great ones. Eat it with a blue cheese. Even if you don't like blue cheese. Just humor me.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:48 AM on November 22, 2013
Spanish red wine is a joy, and frequently in that $7-$10 region. Rioja, Grenacha, Tempranillo.
Adding to advice about water consumption, eat something substantive before or while you are drinking. It will help you to handle the alcohol better.
posted by koucha at 6:51 AM on November 22, 2013
Adding to advice about water consumption, eat something substantive before or while you are drinking. It will help you to handle the alcohol better.
posted by koucha at 6:51 AM on November 22, 2013
I don't know if the "get a cocktail book" suggestion is particularly helpful given that most are filled with garbage. There could be 40 cocktails with variations on dumping Irish whiskey and half&half in a blender. Fine if you know what you like, but a rabbit hole if you don't that will quickly lead to having dozens of bottles of things you will never want to drink again.
I would start with a book on classic cocktails. David Wonderich's book Imbibe is part cocktail history part recipie book. It will teach you some technique and suggestions. And heck, if I was 21 again and a party host made me a perfect sidecar or manhatten I would fuck their brains out.
posted by munchingzombie at 7:06 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would start with a book on classic cocktails. David Wonderich's book Imbibe is part cocktail history part recipie book. It will teach you some technique and suggestions. And heck, if I was 21 again and a party host made me a perfect sidecar or manhatten I would fuck their brains out.
posted by munchingzombie at 7:06 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Give things time and be open to change. I hated scotch the first time I tried it. And the second time. A few years on, I started to like it more. Now I love it. I've encountered too many people who now refuse to drink gin or whiskey because they didn't like it or drank too much of it a decade ago.
A well balanced cocktail tends to have these three components: base liquor(s), a mixer (e.g., tonic, juices, vermouth), and something special (e.g., bitters, simple syrup, liqueurs).
Experiment with bitters, which can really do delightful things to elevate a drink. And consider odd things: I was put off by the idea of egg whites in a Ramos Gin Fizz but I got over it and now I'm a happier person.
posted by JackBurden at 8:05 AM on November 22, 2013
A well balanced cocktail tends to have these three components: base liquor(s), a mixer (e.g., tonic, juices, vermouth), and something special (e.g., bitters, simple syrup, liqueurs).
Experiment with bitters, which can really do delightful things to elevate a drink. And consider odd things: I was put off by the idea of egg whites in a Ramos Gin Fizz but I got over it and now I'm a happier person.
posted by JackBurden at 8:05 AM on November 22, 2013
It might be helpful to you, in terms of broadening your exposure to spirits/cocktails quickly, to just try the basics in each group. Here's what I came up with off the top of my head, but I'm sure others have cocktails they consider "basics" too.
Vodka -- capecodder (&cranberry), screwdriver (&OJ), bloody mary (&tomato juice +/-), vodka tonic, white russian (&milk +/-)
Rum -- rum & coke, dark & stormy (&gingerbeer), dacquiri (&fruit smoothie), pina coladas (&pineapple/cocunut), mojito (&mint)
Gin -- gin & tonic, gin & juice, martini , gimlet (&lime)
Tequila -- margarita (&lime/triplesec), tequila sunrise (&OJ/grenadine/lime +/-)
Whiskey -- whiskey & gingerale, whiskey sour (&sour/sugar/lemon), old fashioned (club soda&rye)
Champagne -- mimosa (&OJ)
all/most of them -- long island iced tea
There are other spirits that are used in some cocktails, like Jager, Bourbon, Schnapps, that you might like to try once you have figured out if you like sweet, sour, fruity, frozen, bitter, spicy/tangy, hot, etc. cocktails. But if you try a smattering of different drinks with the different spirits, you may get a sense of which spirits you prefer.
Of course, you can drink them (and other spirits, like Scotch) by themselves as shots, with water (neat), or on the rocks (over ice) which would give you a better sense of the taste of different alcohols, but that is usually a harsher introduction than a mixed drink or cocktail of some kind so you might prefer easing into it.
posted by likeatoaster at 8:07 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Vodka -- capecodder (&cranberry), screwdriver (&OJ), bloody mary (&tomato juice +/-), vodka tonic, white russian (&milk +/-)
Rum -- rum & coke, dark & stormy (&gingerbeer), dacquiri (&fruit smoothie), pina coladas (&pineapple/cocunut), mojito (&mint)
Gin -- gin & tonic, gin & juice, martini , gimlet (&lime)
Tequila -- margarita (&lime/triplesec), tequila sunrise (&OJ/grenadine/lime +/-)
Whiskey -- whiskey & gingerale, whiskey sour (&sour/sugar/lemon), old fashioned (club soda&rye)
Champagne -- mimosa (&OJ)
all/most of them -- long island iced tea
There are other spirits that are used in some cocktails, like Jager, Bourbon, Schnapps, that you might like to try once you have figured out if you like sweet, sour, fruity, frozen, bitter, spicy/tangy, hot, etc. cocktails. But if you try a smattering of different drinks with the different spirits, you may get a sense of which spirits you prefer.
Of course, you can drink them (and other spirits, like Scotch) by themselves as shots, with water (neat), or on the rocks (over ice) which would give you a better sense of the taste of different alcohols, but that is usually a harsher introduction than a mixed drink or cocktail of some kind so you might prefer easing into it.
posted by likeatoaster at 8:07 AM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Start a blog, well tagged, where you record your thoughts and rate the drinks you try.
For hard alcohols, I recommend drinking old-fashioned cocktails with different base spirits. A cocktail made the old-fashioned way has:
simple syrup
Angostura bitters (don't start out with the other kinds)
the spirit you want to drink
ice
optional citrus peel garnish
combined in a small glass (actually called an old fashioned glass)
You are supposed to also add a dash of water, but I tend to think that unless you have a single large cube of ice designed to minimize melting, there is immediately enough melt water in the glass to add pretty much all the water you want. You can use a sugar cube, muddled with the bitters, if that's simpler/cheaper/all you have.
This is a great hard alcohol delivery system that allows you to see how different bourbons, rums, whiskeys, gins, etc. taste. Don't bother putting something with a strong flavor, like Goldschlager or Jagermeister (ugh). The classic old fashioned uses a whiskey, but it's good with any kind of basic hard spirit.
The advice to drink a large glass of water with every alcholic drink you consume is golden.
Other advice?
Don't feel like you need to keep up. Be comfortable with saying no. Really, seriously, genuinely comfortable. People *will* pressure you to drink. It's not nice, but it happens, and I've done so myself (alas).
If you feel like you need to hide the fact that you're not drinking right this minute, have the barkeep put some gingerale and a garnish in a cocktail glass. If it's good enough for Batman, it's good enough for you. They will also be able to pour a non-alcoholic beer into a glass, which is then indistinguishable to others from a normal beer.
Count your drinks, and consume about one an hour. Don't think the bartender is doing you a favor making "strong" drinks, as that throws your counting off and often means the drink isn't mixed as most would intend it to be mixed for the proper taste experience.
Check into the laws where you live. I've lived in states where blowing *any amount of alcohol* gives an officer the opportunity to give you a DUI, even if it is well below the legal limit. The officer would have to be a huge dick to ruin your life like that, but in case you didn't notice, I'm talking about cops here, so...
Do not feel a moment's shame in pretending to drink a shot with others but really just dumping it in a glass or on the floor, or engaging in any similar kind of subterfuge if you simply do not want to drink but feel pressure to do so.
Drink intentionally, savoring the experience, as much as possible. Make it special. Keep track of how much you drink, and if you start drinking more days than not, or have more drinks each week than there are days in the week, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Build up a nice bar, slowly. It will make you feel sophisticated and visitors will appreciate it. Have a story to tell about each drink you can make or bottle you purchase.
Don't play drinking games non-stop. Include them in your per-hour calculations.
Don't take advantage of drunk people sexually.
Don't put yourself in a situation where you might be taken advantage of sexually.
Protect drunk people from predators when you notice something going on at a bar that doesn't feel right. Get the bartender involved, or escalate to the cops, if you need to.
posted by jsturgill at 9:26 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
For hard alcohols, I recommend drinking old-fashioned cocktails with different base spirits. A cocktail made the old-fashioned way has:
simple syrup
Angostura bitters (don't start out with the other kinds)
the spirit you want to drink
ice
optional citrus peel garnish
combined in a small glass (actually called an old fashioned glass)
You are supposed to also add a dash of water, but I tend to think that unless you have a single large cube of ice designed to minimize melting, there is immediately enough melt water in the glass to add pretty much all the water you want. You can use a sugar cube, muddled with the bitters, if that's simpler/cheaper/all you have.
This is a great hard alcohol delivery system that allows you to see how different bourbons, rums, whiskeys, gins, etc. taste. Don't bother putting something with a strong flavor, like Goldschlager or Jagermeister (ugh). The classic old fashioned uses a whiskey, but it's good with any kind of basic hard spirit.
The advice to drink a large glass of water with every alcholic drink you consume is golden.
Other advice?
Don't feel like you need to keep up. Be comfortable with saying no. Really, seriously, genuinely comfortable. People *will* pressure you to drink. It's not nice, but it happens, and I've done so myself (alas).
If you feel like you need to hide the fact that you're not drinking right this minute, have the barkeep put some gingerale and a garnish in a cocktail glass. If it's good enough for Batman, it's good enough for you. They will also be able to pour a non-alcoholic beer into a glass, which is then indistinguishable to others from a normal beer.
Count your drinks, and consume about one an hour. Don't think the bartender is doing you a favor making "strong" drinks, as that throws your counting off and often means the drink isn't mixed as most would intend it to be mixed for the proper taste experience.
Check into the laws where you live. I've lived in states where blowing *any amount of alcohol* gives an officer the opportunity to give you a DUI, even if it is well below the legal limit. The officer would have to be a huge dick to ruin your life like that, but in case you didn't notice, I'm talking about cops here, so...
Do not feel a moment's shame in pretending to drink a shot with others but really just dumping it in a glass or on the floor, or engaging in any similar kind of subterfuge if you simply do not want to drink but feel pressure to do so.
Drink intentionally, savoring the experience, as much as possible. Make it special. Keep track of how much you drink, and if you start drinking more days than not, or have more drinks each week than there are days in the week, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Build up a nice bar, slowly. It will make you feel sophisticated and visitors will appreciate it. Have a story to tell about each drink you can make or bottle you purchase.
Don't play drinking games non-stop. Include them in your per-hour calculations.
Don't take advantage of drunk people sexually.
Don't put yourself in a situation where you might be taken advantage of sexually.
Protect drunk people from predators when you notice something going on at a bar that doesn't feel right. Get the bartender involved, or escalate to the cops, if you need to.
posted by jsturgill at 9:26 AM on November 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
whatever kind of alcohol you end up drinking when you get to be my age, you have to learn and be able to remember the taste of the cheap before you can truly appreciate the taste of the best.
posted by bruce at 9:31 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by bruce at 9:31 AM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Pace yourself is the best advice! You don't want to drink one strong cocktail after another (having your head spinning for the rest of the night, is not the goal of drinking alcohol ;) Spread the drinks out time-wise, a lot of alcohol can be consumed in a very short time when you're having fun.
Go with some standards- vodka and cranberry is a favorite of mine. I would suggest going for a bit more expensive vodka (or other liquor), I've found if I drink the cheap liquor I tend to feel more of a shitty hangover the next day. Also, the better liquor seems to taste a bit smoother and more pleasant to me. So maybe try for a mid priced spirit to go with your mixer (cranberry, orange juice, coke, seltzer, etc).
As far as wine, I'm a fan of the lighter type whites. Pinot Grigio is quite nice (Santa Margarita is a good wine for around $20, it's a bit pricey so you might want to save it for a good meal or get together/dinner party with friends). Chardonnay is nice as well, I think Barefoot is a pretty cheap and decent brand.
There's some good pinot noir's as far as reds. It's been a good suggestion upthread that you check out some wine tasting- most wine bars will have "flights", which are about 4 smaller glasses of different wines for you to try.
As for beer, I go for a Stella or Newcastle (Newcastle is a darker ale with more body to it, Stella is a pilsner which tends to be lighter and a bit easier to throw back).
Any import is pretty much going to be better than most domestics. Try some different brands, especially go for some craft beers and local breweries, these will have a better taste to them, generally. For the best beer in my opinion, Duvel, or Chimay. Just great, and high alcohol content, so you don't have to drink bottles and bottles to feel something. They taste good as well, big plus!
As far as whisky Bushmills is Irish, and great. I'd say for anything like this (scotch as well), you really want to get a good quality product, as a lot of drinking these spirits are about getting more of the taste.
Good luck, and happy tasting!
posted by readygo at 9:49 AM on November 22, 2013
Go with some standards- vodka and cranberry is a favorite of mine. I would suggest going for a bit more expensive vodka (or other liquor), I've found if I drink the cheap liquor I tend to feel more of a shitty hangover the next day. Also, the better liquor seems to taste a bit smoother and more pleasant to me. So maybe try for a mid priced spirit to go with your mixer (cranberry, orange juice, coke, seltzer, etc).
As far as wine, I'm a fan of the lighter type whites. Pinot Grigio is quite nice (Santa Margarita is a good wine for around $20, it's a bit pricey so you might want to save it for a good meal or get together/dinner party with friends). Chardonnay is nice as well, I think Barefoot is a pretty cheap and decent brand.
There's some good pinot noir's as far as reds. It's been a good suggestion upthread that you check out some wine tasting- most wine bars will have "flights", which are about 4 smaller glasses of different wines for you to try.
As for beer, I go for a Stella or Newcastle (Newcastle is a darker ale with more body to it, Stella is a pilsner which tends to be lighter and a bit easier to throw back).
Any import is pretty much going to be better than most domestics. Try some different brands, especially go for some craft beers and local breweries, these will have a better taste to them, generally. For the best beer in my opinion, Duvel, or Chimay. Just great, and high alcohol content, so you don't have to drink bottles and bottles to feel something. They taste good as well, big plus!
As far as whisky Bushmills is Irish, and great. I'd say for anything like this (scotch as well), you really want to get a good quality product, as a lot of drinking these spirits are about getting more of the taste.
Good luck, and happy tasting!
posted by readygo at 9:49 AM on November 22, 2013
ISTR a small card they gave us in high school that showed that a 155-pound body can process one alcoholic drink per hour. (One beer, a glass of wine, a shot of hard alcohol.)
That said, drink water between alcoholic drinks.
More often than not, when you think you've had enough, you've already had one too many.
If you've had more than one or two drinks, you really aren't a good judge of whether you're safe to drive. (My solution: drink at home!)
Don't be afraid to splurge on something nice. If you stick to a miserly budget, you will miss out on some lovely flavors and also have to suffer many nasty ones. (I used to buy expensive coffee but only use half as much as I should, with twice the required water. It made expensive, quadruply-dilute battery acid. Now I drink one big mug of strong, rich coffee and gloat about my iron self-control.
Don't listen to the haters (of anything), and don't be afraid to admit you don't like something just because it's popular or expensive.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:44 AM on November 22, 2013
That said, drink water between alcoholic drinks.
More often than not, when you think you've had enough, you've already had one too many.
If you've had more than one or two drinks, you really aren't a good judge of whether you're safe to drive. (My solution: drink at home!)
Don't be afraid to splurge on something nice. If you stick to a miserly budget, you will miss out on some lovely flavors and also have to suffer many nasty ones. (I used to buy expensive coffee but only use half as much as I should, with twice the required water. It made expensive, quadruply-dilute battery acid. Now I drink one big mug of strong, rich coffee and gloat about my iron self-control.
Don't listen to the haters (of anything), and don't be afraid to admit you don't like something just because it's popular or expensive.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:44 AM on November 22, 2013
Klangklangston posted an excellent two-part guide to liquors a few years back.
My own advice is to start with scotch.
You're in Oakland? If you ask/Google around, you shouldn't have much trouble locating a bar or restaurant with a deep scotch menu, ideally with annotations letting you know what flavors to expect in a given single malt--"caramel," "vanilla," "peat," etc.
Order a glass of a scotch that interests you and costs at least $5 more than you're strictly comfortable paying. Ask for some water on the side, without ice.
Here is your challenge: drink the scotch as slowly as possible. Be generous with the tip.
---
Taking your time with a really good single malt is one of the sovereign pleasures of life. It's also one of the more expensive ones, so unless you possess substantial means you won't be able to do it so often that the experience palls or a dependency grows.
And it teaches mindful drinking: the full experience of taste, the savor of the slow, spreading warmth in the core, the nuances of the mind's response. There are pleasures, too, in drinking quickly and to oblivion, but they're not nearly as sustainable in the long run. Learn to be a mindful drinker, if you can.
posted by Iridic at 12:51 PM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
My own advice is to start with scotch.
You're in Oakland? If you ask/Google around, you shouldn't have much trouble locating a bar or restaurant with a deep scotch menu, ideally with annotations letting you know what flavors to expect in a given single malt--"caramel," "vanilla," "peat," etc.
Order a glass of a scotch that interests you and costs at least $5 more than you're strictly comfortable paying. Ask for some water on the side, without ice.
Here is your challenge: drink the scotch as slowly as possible. Be generous with the tip.
---
Taking your time with a really good single malt is one of the sovereign pleasures of life. It's also one of the more expensive ones, so unless you possess substantial means you won't be able to do it so often that the experience palls or a dependency grows.
And it teaches mindful drinking: the full experience of taste, the savor of the slow, spreading warmth in the core, the nuances of the mind's response. There are pleasures, too, in drinking quickly and to oblivion, but they're not nearly as sustainable in the long run. Learn to be a mindful drinker, if you can.
posted by Iridic at 12:51 PM on November 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
My advice on the issue from four years ago.
(more on brown liquors.)
posted by klangklangston at 2:02 PM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
(more on brown liquors.)
posted by klangklangston at 2:02 PM on November 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Derp! That's what I get for not reading through! Thanks, Iridic!
posted by klangklangston at 2:03 PM on November 22, 2013
posted by klangklangston at 2:03 PM on November 22, 2013
Any time, klang! (Your brown liquor comment got me into brandy, by the way.)
posted by Iridic at 2:27 PM on November 22, 2013
posted by Iridic at 2:27 PM on November 22, 2013
Start drinking at home, in a safe, controlled environment, before you drink in public. You need to know your limits, and how things feel, before you head out with friends.
Head to Trader Joe's, and get a bottle of Fetzer "Valley Oaks" (about $6), or a bottle of BV Coastal (about $7). They're both cabernet sauvignons, and both decent. Don't forget to get a wine glass or two, and a bottle opener/corkscrew. For contrast, get a bottle of Charles Shaw, also at Trader Joe's (about $2). It is not decent.
Wine is terribly perishable. Even tightly corked, with little headspace, it ages badly in the fridge overnight after you've opened it. Try to notice this through experimentation. Try drinking wine with foods, and notice how nibbled cheese can convert swill (Charles Shaw) into not-swill.
Head to the CA DMV website, and review their limits on drinking and driving. Personally, I think the limits in CA are set rather too high: I don't feel safe driving when I am at or under their the CA DMV's limits.
In my opinion, distilled high-proof spirits are the work of Satan, except in foggy campsites in the Santa Cruz mountains, or perhaps Scotland.
posted by the Real Dan at 5:14 PM on November 22, 2013
Head to Trader Joe's, and get a bottle of Fetzer "Valley Oaks" (about $6), or a bottle of BV Coastal (about $7). They're both cabernet sauvignons, and both decent. Don't forget to get a wine glass or two, and a bottle opener/corkscrew. For contrast, get a bottle of Charles Shaw, also at Trader Joe's (about $2). It is not decent.
Wine is terribly perishable. Even tightly corked, with little headspace, it ages badly in the fridge overnight after you've opened it. Try to notice this through experimentation. Try drinking wine with foods, and notice how nibbled cheese can convert swill (Charles Shaw) into not-swill.
Head to the CA DMV website, and review their limits on drinking and driving. Personally, I think the limits in CA are set rather too high: I don't feel safe driving when I am at or under their the CA DMV's limits.
In my opinion, distilled high-proof spirits are the work of Satan, except in foggy campsites in the Santa Cruz mountains, or perhaps Scotland.
posted by the Real Dan at 5:14 PM on November 22, 2013
Brandy is awesome! It's fantastic for mixed drinks, and really does seem to range from pretty good at the bottom to fucking awesome at the top, in a way that I don't think any other liquor really does (most are horrid at the bottom end, but most go to a lower price point than brandy does). Also, it makes every hot drink better.
posted by klangklangston at 11:44 AM on November 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by klangklangston at 11:44 AM on November 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
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Your local liquor store should have tiny little four-packs of mixed drinks, wine spritzers, etc. That's a nice little low-impact way to try different things.
You might like hard cider as well, it has a good fruity taste without being too overpowering.
With hard liquor, my personal favorites are spirits with a single mixer. Rum and Coke, whiskey and water, gin or vodka tonics...
Experiment! Try a lot of different things, see what you like. Just don't do it all in one night.
posted by RainyJay at 11:35 PM on November 21, 2013