Living next door to a "unsound" house
September 27, 2013 11:58 AM Subscribe
About a year ago, my wife and daughter leased a house in a new housing complex. We didn't realize it at the time, but The House* next door has large holes in the roof (only visible from the side), and my wife is worried about mold/health issues. I'm also not quite sure how to google this as details (which may or may not be pertinent) abound.
*I am told by my wife it must be referred to as "The House"
The House is a neighboring two-story, wood frame house (ours is one story, wood frame) in a HOA-run neighborhood in South Florida, inhabited by two quiet (but strange) people, and there is about 15 feet of space between us and this house. After months of periodically talking to the neighbors about The House we found out through bits of information that:
1. The House has had large holes in the roof (now about six feet in diameter) for about five years. There are currently two holes at this size. One hole has a family of ducks that lives in it). Being South Florida, it rains quite a bit and is very hot/humid.
2. We were told that the neighborhood pooled a few thousand dollars together a few years ago so they could fix their roof, but apparently they took it without doing any repairs.
3. They have not had running water or electricity for at least 5 years.
4. They occasionally open one upstairs window a crack, but other than that The House remains sealed (windows/doors) except when they leave.
5. As of about two months ago, they have begun to mostly sleep in the car outside, but whether due to heat or other issues is anyone's guess.
6. The HOA has tried to auction The House, but the word is no one will buy it due to the roof damage visible from the exterior.
7.The HOA has also firmly stated to the neighborhood that The House doesn't present any health risk or danger of collapsing.
I'm OK with the general oddness of the situation with regards to the people next door, and they pretty much keep to themselves; though we're on a casual "wave/nod" basis. They have occasionally stolen our water out of the spigot and offered to pay when we have walked up on them doing it, but they mostly buy water from the supermarket, and honestly, an extra few bucks a month in my water bill isn't a big enough deal for me to involve myself with. I'm also not worried about property values or increasing weirdness, as we're just renters and we will move at some point.
However, my wife recently brought up the fact that she has had a spate of allergies/sinus infections recently (though as I pointed out, there were many occurrences of which pre-existed moving here), but in her opinion they are happening more frequently and the House is to blame.
After she expressed her concerns initially, I installed two true-HEPA air purifiers in the bedrooms which run 24/7, but she still insists the house next door is moldy-evil.
I believe that if there is in fact any incidental "cloud of mold" which surrounds The House, between the filter in the AC and the air purifiers, and the fact that we keep our windows and doors sealed as well we're pretty much OK.
Granted, we spend plenty of time in our driveway, but I wouldn't imagine this would be any worse than a walk in the Everglades with regards to mold-type issues.
So... I guess my question is two-fold.
1. Is this as relatively innocuous (to my family) as I think it is, or should I be more concerned?
2. If I should be taking additional steps other than the true-Hepa filters, what should I do?
I am hesitant to contact Housing Authorities as the neighbors are already in a shitty situation (though it appears it is at least partly self-imposed), but I don't personally want to make it worse for them. If it's really bad health wise for me and my family, however, I would like to know.
The House is a neighboring two-story, wood frame house (ours is one story, wood frame) in a HOA-run neighborhood in South Florida, inhabited by two quiet (but strange) people, and there is about 15 feet of space between us and this house. After months of periodically talking to the neighbors about The House we found out through bits of information that:
1. The House has had large holes in the roof (now about six feet in diameter) for about five years. There are currently two holes at this size. One hole has a family of ducks that lives in it). Being South Florida, it rains quite a bit and is very hot/humid.
2. We were told that the neighborhood pooled a few thousand dollars together a few years ago so they could fix their roof, but apparently they took it without doing any repairs.
3. They have not had running water or electricity for at least 5 years.
4. They occasionally open one upstairs window a crack, but other than that The House remains sealed (windows/doors) except when they leave.
5. As of about two months ago, they have begun to mostly sleep in the car outside, but whether due to heat or other issues is anyone's guess.
6. The HOA has tried to auction The House, but the word is no one will buy it due to the roof damage visible from the exterior.
7.The HOA has also firmly stated to the neighborhood that The House doesn't present any health risk or danger of collapsing.
I'm OK with the general oddness of the situation with regards to the people next door, and they pretty much keep to themselves; though we're on a casual "wave/nod" basis. They have occasionally stolen our water out of the spigot and offered to pay when we have walked up on them doing it, but they mostly buy water from the supermarket, and honestly, an extra few bucks a month in my water bill isn't a big enough deal for me to involve myself with. I'm also not worried about property values or increasing weirdness, as we're just renters and we will move at some point.
However, my wife recently brought up the fact that she has had a spate of allergies/sinus infections recently (though as I pointed out, there were many occurrences of which pre-existed moving here), but in her opinion they are happening more frequently and the House is to blame.
After she expressed her concerns initially, I installed two true-HEPA air purifiers in the bedrooms which run 24/7, but she still insists the house next door is moldy-evil.
I believe that if there is in fact any incidental "cloud of mold" which surrounds The House, between the filter in the AC and the air purifiers, and the fact that we keep our windows and doors sealed as well we're pretty much OK.
Granted, we spend plenty of time in our driveway, but I wouldn't imagine this would be any worse than a walk in the Everglades with regards to mold-type issues.
So... I guess my question is two-fold.
1. Is this as relatively innocuous (to my family) as I think it is, or should I be more concerned?
2. If I should be taking additional steps other than the true-Hepa filters, what should I do?
I am hesitant to contact Housing Authorities as the neighbors are already in a shitty situation (though it appears it is at least partly self-imposed), but I don't personally want to make it worse for them. If it's really bad health wise for me and my family, however, I would like to know.
There could be mold growing in that house, sure. There could be mold growing on a dead tree or a wood pile or someone's garden shed or whatever just as easily.
Even if the house is only 50 feet away, not much dust is going to make it to your place. Try this experiment: Take a bowl of flour or other light powder, put it next to an open window. Walk across the yard. See how much of the powder makes it all the way over to where you're standing. Mold isn't going to travel any better than that, and there's going to be a *lot* less of it to start with.
If your wife is having an allergy problem, you may want to get *your* house checked, because it's a lot more likely that you'd be getting exposed to mold or something else that was growing in your HVAC system than you're getting exposed to mold growing at the neighbor's house and then blowing into your house in sufficient quantities to notice.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:09 PM on September 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Even if the house is only 50 feet away, not much dust is going to make it to your place. Try this experiment: Take a bowl of flour or other light powder, put it next to an open window. Walk across the yard. See how much of the powder makes it all the way over to where you're standing. Mold isn't going to travel any better than that, and there's going to be a *lot* less of it to start with.
If your wife is having an allergy problem, you may want to get *your* house checked, because it's a lot more likely that you'd be getting exposed to mold or something else that was growing in your HVAC system than you're getting exposed to mold growing at the neighbor's house and then blowing into your house in sufficient quantities to notice.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:09 PM on September 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Welcome to the wonderful world of sub-standard construction and weirdness that is South Florida.
1. Do not delay, call the code enforcement department of your local mucipality and narc those Mo-Fo's out. You may not be worried about property values, but your neighbors may be. Also if there are children involved... Or those people may be squatters. Just...Ew!
2. Allergies and mold are a thing in South Florida.
3. And are not improved by things like Chinese Dry Wall!
You may want to have your dry wall tested to see if your wife's symptoms may be due to Chinese Dry Wall or ambiant mold.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:19 PM on September 27, 2013
1. Do not delay, call the code enforcement department of your local mucipality and narc those Mo-Fo's out. You may not be worried about property values, but your neighbors may be. Also if there are children involved... Or those people may be squatters. Just...Ew!
2. Allergies and mold are a thing in South Florida.
3. And are not improved by things like Chinese Dry Wall!
You may want to have your dry wall tested to see if your wife's symptoms may be due to Chinese Dry Wall or ambiant mold.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:19 PM on September 27, 2013
I grew up next to a house somewhat like this, although it was broken windows in the attic instead of gaping holes in the roof (although I am sure there was plenty of roof damage as well). Along with it being full of birds (pigeons) and the tremendous amount of associated bird droppings there was a family of truly giant raccoons living the good life in there.
So you know they have ducks, because they have told you. What else is living in there that they haven't told you about? That they don't know about?
Similarly, you know they occasionally steal your water because you caught them stealing your water. They could certainly be stealing, say, electricity as well.
Is this as relatively innocuous (to my family) as I think it is, or should I be more concerned?
Are you concerned about your property values or even ever being able to sell your house in case you want to relocate? Are you concerned about a pack of (some animal) seeking refuge in your yard/house when the neighbor's house is eventually destroyed/reclaimed?
the neighbors are already in a shitty situation
And it sounds like it is getting worse if they are living in their car. What's their next move? You can't count on it being rational. If a big storm comes your way and they knock on your door, what do you do then?
posted by mikepop at 12:24 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
So you know they have ducks, because they have told you. What else is living in there that they haven't told you about? That they don't know about?
Similarly, you know they occasionally steal your water because you caught them stealing your water. They could certainly be stealing, say, electricity as well.
Is this as relatively innocuous (to my family) as I think it is, or should I be more concerned?
Are you concerned about your property values or even ever being able to sell your house in case you want to relocate? Are you concerned about a pack of (some animal) seeking refuge in your yard/house when the neighbor's house is eventually destroyed/reclaimed?
the neighbors are already in a shitty situation
And it sounds like it is getting worse if they are living in their car. What's their next move? You can't count on it being rational. If a big storm comes your way and they knock on your door, what do you do then?
posted by mikepop at 12:24 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
If they don't have water, I would be most concerned about what they are doing with human waste. This is NOT a healthy situation. Call code enforcement.
posted by crw at 12:34 PM on September 27, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by crw at 12:34 PM on September 27, 2013 [12 favorites]
Do I buy the "cause and effect" argument that your wife's allergies are caused by this? No, not really. Speaking as someone with allergies who was really wanting to attribute it to a shitty place I lived before. They wax and wane, that's allergies. I especially think the "not the first time" should be heavily considered here.
Do I think this should be reported to the city? Fuck, absolutely Yes.
I'm kinda wondering why the HOA hasn't already. Are they worried about how a boarded up house won't meet their visual guidelines or something? It's definitely better than this.
The house is a problem, but not because of allergies. As stated by others above its a cornucopia of shitty situations waiting to happen. You can't really nip it in the bud because it's already just barely starting to bloom. But you Can Prune it ASAP.
posted by emptythought at 12:35 PM on September 27, 2013
Do I think this should be reported to the city? Fuck, absolutely Yes.
I'm kinda wondering why the HOA hasn't already. Are they worried about how a boarded up house won't meet their visual guidelines or something? It's definitely better than this.
The house is a problem, but not because of allergies. As stated by others above its a cornucopia of shitty situations waiting to happen. You can't really nip it in the bud because it's already just barely starting to bloom. But you Can Prune it ASAP.
posted by emptythought at 12:35 PM on September 27, 2013
Any house that has no running water but people living in it has a sanitation issue. This is usually a code violation as well as a health issue. The additional facts of the holes in the roof (along with the family of ducks) and humidity of S. Florida makes me think this home will probably be condemned by the city/county. This not an HOA issue but a municipal problem and should be dealt with by them. The mold could possibly steep into your home depending on how air tight your house is and how bad theirs is, how often the wind blows your way, and what kind of mold is growing/festering. You could have an air quality expert come in and check. In New England usually the electric company occasionally does an energy check for free - it has the advantage of letting you know where air is seeping in/out of your home. I'm not sure in your area although I'd try your local utility or university.
The fact that they are helping themselves to your water is between you and them, however I would be concerned on how often this is happening and what else they are helping themselves to when you are not around. While I understand your desire to let them be, this sounds psychologically unhealthy.
posted by lasamana at 12:36 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fact that they are helping themselves to your water is between you and them, however I would be concerned on how often this is happening and what else they are helping themselves to when you are not around. While I understand your desire to let them be, this sounds psychologically unhealthy.
posted by lasamana at 12:36 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Houses are not any more susceptible to mold growth than anything else; the big scare with mold growth in buildings is that it's actually in the buildings and frequently is a signal of other issues with a building, like poor waterproofing. Mold feeds on the cellulose in the paper backing of gypsum board and uses that and moisture (either from leaks or ambient humidity) to grow. So, if their roof is junk, they almost certainly have mold somewhere, but in a warm humid environment like Florida, you're going to have mold everywhere. Buildings are not, like, catalysts for extreme mold growth or anything.
Otherwise, yeah, building should be designated uninhabitable and I'd be just as worried about stuff like vermin, fire, sanitation, and other things.
posted by LionIndex at 12:51 PM on September 27, 2013
Otherwise, yeah, building should be designated uninhabitable and I'd be just as worried about stuff like vermin, fire, sanitation, and other things.
posted by LionIndex at 12:51 PM on September 27, 2013
Best answer: So, I have pretty bad mold and weed allergies too. And I can agree that they come and go, sometimes not even matching up with the pollen forecasts. (?? I mean come on allergies, WTF!) Molds are pretty bad in the fall season, as are weed allergies.
First, when was the last time she was tested properly for allergies? If not recently, she should do it again. Maybe there is an allergen she wasn't aware of. Maybe there are different kinds of trees in this neighborhood? Maybe an animal lived there before?
Second, check your own house, HVAC, vents, windowsills for molds and dusts. (Peroxide is good for mold, especially in corners because it foams up.) Also, windowsills often get mold when they aren't cleaned regularly but it doesn't mean the whole house is mold infested, so don't freak if you find a small amount somewhere.
Third, you may be able to have your rental company cover someone coming to check for molds in your house/area. (I know there was a clause in one of my leases about black mold testing, but I think you may need visible mold for that?) But either way, check your own house first, and ask the rental company if they cover it or not.
Fourth, regardless of if her allergies are caused by weather, pollens, your own house, or The House, call an agency. This is not safe living conditions for them or you. To be honest it sounds like a classic Hoarding situation in which they have been forced out to live in their car by all the stuff. This is speculation on my part but..It also seems pretty classic that they if they are in a hoarding situation, they didn't get the repairs on the house done so they could avoid someone entering the house and reporting them. (Do you see them take garbage out? As someone above asked, what are they doing with human waste?) Someone living in this condition may not be affecting her allergies, but there can be other bad things by living next door such as smell, human waste problems, garbage problems, and even rodents and cockroaches. If it is hoarding - or some similar mental illness or money problems - they need help. It's not okay that they haven't had water or electricity. They clearly cannot take care of themselves.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:00 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
First, when was the last time she was tested properly for allergies? If not recently, she should do it again. Maybe there is an allergen she wasn't aware of. Maybe there are different kinds of trees in this neighborhood? Maybe an animal lived there before?
Second, check your own house, HVAC, vents, windowsills for molds and dusts. (Peroxide is good for mold, especially in corners because it foams up.) Also, windowsills often get mold when they aren't cleaned regularly but it doesn't mean the whole house is mold infested, so don't freak if you find a small amount somewhere.
Third, you may be able to have your rental company cover someone coming to check for molds in your house/area. (I know there was a clause in one of my leases about black mold testing, but I think you may need visible mold for that?) But either way, check your own house first, and ask the rental company if they cover it or not.
Fourth, regardless of if her allergies are caused by weather, pollens, your own house, or The House, call an agency. This is not safe living conditions for them or you. To be honest it sounds like a classic Hoarding situation in which they have been forced out to live in their car by all the stuff. This is speculation on my part but..It also seems pretty classic that they if they are in a hoarding situation, they didn't get the repairs on the house done so they could avoid someone entering the house and reporting them. (Do you see them take garbage out? As someone above asked, what are they doing with human waste?) Someone living in this condition may not be affecting her allergies, but there can be other bad things by living next door such as smell, human waste problems, garbage problems, and even rodents and cockroaches. If it is hoarding - or some similar mental illness or money problems - they need help. It's not okay that they haven't had water or electricity. They clearly cannot take care of themselves.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:00 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
It is very unlikely The House has anything to do with allergies, compared to other possible sources. The House, and allergy suffering, are two separate issues which will be best dealt with separately.
posted by aramaic at 2:03 PM on September 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 2:03 PM on September 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Standing water breeds mosquitoes. It seems likely there's standing water around there, in the attic area, under the house, etc.
Nobody here knows whether mold from the house next door will impact your wife (and daughter). Ask professionals if it's important. I think it is important. It's not just allergies, mold can cause serious problems even without an allergic reaction. Some molds are just toxic.
If the land is valuable enough, maybe some kind of plan could be made to tear down the house and rebuild as a duplex or 2-3 smaller, affordable houses. Then the neighbors won't be homeless and there could be some kind of income stream.
posted by amtho at 2:03 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nobody here knows whether mold from the house next door will impact your wife (and daughter). Ask professionals if it's important. I think it is important. It's not just allergies, mold can cause serious problems even without an allergic reaction. Some molds are just toxic.
If the land is valuable enough, maybe some kind of plan could be made to tear down the house and rebuild as a duplex or 2-3 smaller, affordable houses. Then the neighbors won't be homeless and there could be some kind of income stream.
posted by amtho at 2:03 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't think it would matter whether or not the HOA said it is not a health risk. It is an obvious health risk. It is impossible to have legal occupancy without running water!
There are still plenty of people in the USA who do not have running water in their homes. I can drive two miles and there are multiple homes without it.
posted by SuzySmith at 2:04 PM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Remember the post about the house with thousands of rats...
Everybody poops. Think about it.
Make that call.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:31 PM on September 27, 2013
Everybody poops. Think about it.
Make that call.
posted by BlueHorse at 2:31 PM on September 27, 2013
I don't think it would matter whether or not the HOA said it is not a health risk. It is an obvious health risk. It is impossible to have legal occupancy without running water!
There are lots of houses in my municipality that have no running water (colloquially called "dry cabins"), and perfectly respectable people live in them (including at least two of my colleagues) and use outhouses.
However, it doesn't sound like this house is set up to work like that. So, yeah, I'd consider calling the city or county and letting them know about the situation, so maybe they could send a social worker out to check on the situation.
(Independent of the mold issue---which I'd more likely attribute to mold/mildew just generally outside, or in your house, etc, rather than a consequence of The House.)
posted by leahwrenn at 2:50 PM on September 27, 2013
Best answer: If it's not a health hazard to you (and it's not), and it doesn't affect your property values (since you're renters), and it's not bringing crime or whatever into the neighborhood . . . I don't see why you would report it.
posted by MeiraV at 5:52 PM on September 27, 2013
posted by MeiraV at 5:52 PM on September 27, 2013
Nobody here knows whether mold from the house next door will impact your wife (and daughter). Ask professionals if it's important. I think it is important. It's not just allergies, mold can cause serious problems even without an allergic reaction. Some molds are just toxic.
Just make sure those professionals are doctors and not people selling services for dealing with mold. Some molds are toxic, yes, but evidence that they affect you by just breathing around them is iffy. At best it's an exceedingly rare thing blown up by mold scare stories. Respiratory problems are more of an issue but that's mainly if you've already got a weakened immune system, mold allergies, are a child, or are otherwise predisposed to respiratory problems. Even then, that's from living in confined spaces with the stuff, not next door. (source)
posted by jason_steakums at 9:52 PM on September 27, 2013
Just make sure those professionals are doctors and not people selling services for dealing with mold. Some molds are toxic, yes, but evidence that they affect you by just breathing around them is iffy. At best it's an exceedingly rare thing blown up by mold scare stories. Respiratory problems are more of an issue but that's mainly if you've already got a weakened immune system, mold allergies, are a child, or are otherwise predisposed to respiratory problems. Even then, that's from living in confined spaces with the stuff, not next door. (source)
posted by jason_steakums at 9:52 PM on September 27, 2013
Please report back and let us know what the outcome of this situation is--here's hoping the allergies resolve/can be treated.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:42 PM on September 28, 2013
posted by BlueHorse at 3:42 PM on September 28, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't think it would matter whether or not the HOA said it is not a health risk. It is an obvious health risk. It is impossible to have legal occupancy without running water!
posted by citygirl at 12:05 PM on September 27, 2013 [3 favorites]