Marriage... urgh!
July 4, 2013 9:29 AM Subscribe
Is he ever going to marry me? And does it really matter anyway?
I've been with my fantastic boyfriend for 5 years this year, we have built a wonderful life together, have a fabulous cat, great social life, there is lots of love, travel, laughing and overall, I couldn't be happier.
BUT... I am finding myself bogged down with continual thoughts of marriage, proposals, rings etc. and I need some perspective on this.
My SO and I are both 31, I moved countries 5 years ago to be with him and thankfully that choice has worked out exceedingly well for both of us. My parents are divorced and my SO's parents have been married over 50 years FWIW. I was never one of those girls who planned my wedding when I was five, in fact I have NO desire, absolutely zero desire, to plan a wedding, buy a dress etc. However, for the past couple of years I seem to have been yearning for him to make a "proper" committment to me. I don't doubt his fidelity and love and loyalty, it's just, well, I guess I want something "official" from him to somewhat seal the deal. We have discussed the institution of marriage many times and he insists he will ask me to marry him one day. I've been patiently waiting for that day to come, and it just never does.
Recently, I've been getting very emotional on nights out after a few drinks and I often end up crying following yet ANOTHER conversation about marriage and if it's ever going to happen for us. (I do realise how sad and pathetic I sound right now - that's why I'm turning to you, please help me gain some perspective!)
The complicating factor in all this is that I can be an extremely cynical person. I KNOW that marriage really isn't the be all and end all these days, I know many, many, many marriages end in divorce. I also know that many marriages can be happy and fufilling to both parties involved. I'm really wondering if I just want an engagement ring without the wedding, and I'm struggling internally as to why this is so important to me.... i basically already "have it all" but sometimes, I just want more.
My question is this: Is marriage THAT important? Are any of you happily un-married? If you are un-married, do you still secretly WISH for that proposal? What can I do to banish these unwelcome thoughts and just be grateful for what I have!?
All advice / anecdotes muchly appreciated! (This is my first ever question and I feel like a bit of a fool even asking it - please be nice!)
I've been with my fantastic boyfriend for 5 years this year, we have built a wonderful life together, have a fabulous cat, great social life, there is lots of love, travel, laughing and overall, I couldn't be happier.
BUT... I am finding myself bogged down with continual thoughts of marriage, proposals, rings etc. and I need some perspective on this.
My SO and I are both 31, I moved countries 5 years ago to be with him and thankfully that choice has worked out exceedingly well for both of us. My parents are divorced and my SO's parents have been married over 50 years FWIW. I was never one of those girls who planned my wedding when I was five, in fact I have NO desire, absolutely zero desire, to plan a wedding, buy a dress etc. However, for the past couple of years I seem to have been yearning for him to make a "proper" committment to me. I don't doubt his fidelity and love and loyalty, it's just, well, I guess I want something "official" from him to somewhat seal the deal. We have discussed the institution of marriage many times and he insists he will ask me to marry him one day. I've been patiently waiting for that day to come, and it just never does.
Recently, I've been getting very emotional on nights out after a few drinks and I often end up crying following yet ANOTHER conversation about marriage and if it's ever going to happen for us. (I do realise how sad and pathetic I sound right now - that's why I'm turning to you, please help me gain some perspective!)
The complicating factor in all this is that I can be an extremely cynical person. I KNOW that marriage really isn't the be all and end all these days, I know many, many, many marriages end in divorce. I also know that many marriages can be happy and fufilling to both parties involved. I'm really wondering if I just want an engagement ring without the wedding, and I'm struggling internally as to why this is so important to me.... i basically already "have it all" but sometimes, I just want more.
My question is this: Is marriage THAT important? Are any of you happily un-married? If you are un-married, do you still secretly WISH for that proposal? What can I do to banish these unwelcome thoughts and just be grateful for what I have!?
All advice / anecdotes muchly appreciated! (This is my first ever question and I feel like a bit of a fool even asking it - please be nice!)
I am happily unmarried. This is because
- I am not religious, so have no desire for a religious marriage
- I don't want children, so have no great legal need for marriage
- I don't like great big parties, so I don't particularly want a ceremony
- I feel stable enough in my life with my partner that I don't feel the need for a commitment to add to that
If those things were not all the case for me I would just say "So when are we getting hitched then?", and have an adult conversation about what a sensible timeline would be, what kind of wedding would be appropriate and who is going to be doing what in the way of planning.
posted by emilyw at 9:37 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
- I am not religious, so have no desire for a religious marriage
- I don't want children, so have no great legal need for marriage
- I don't like great big parties, so I don't particularly want a ceremony
- I feel stable enough in my life with my partner that I don't feel the need for a commitment to add to that
If those things were not all the case for me I would just say "So when are we getting hitched then?", and have an adult conversation about what a sensible timeline would be, what kind of wedding would be appropriate and who is going to be doing what in the way of planning.
posted by emilyw at 9:37 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I say if you want a ring and a license, it's a pretty low bar to clear for the sake of some temporary contentment. But look at the price of those rings, and think about your current needs and priorities. Would you rather have that ring, or a down payment on a house/ speed boat/ luxury vacation at Lake Como?
Ultimately, those fancy pinterest weddings are consumer products, things that you can purchase with your hard earned cash. If retail therapy is what you need, is this really what you want to buy?
Or do you want the license? The verbal/ legal affirmation of commitment? If you want that, you need to talk to your partner, and get this need acknowledged. And if this is the wedding that you want, nothing goes with this kind of occasion like a really good party.
posted by pickypicky at 9:41 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ultimately, those fancy pinterest weddings are consumer products, things that you can purchase with your hard earned cash. If retail therapy is what you need, is this really what you want to buy?
Or do you want the license? The verbal/ legal affirmation of commitment? If you want that, you need to talk to your partner, and get this need acknowledged. And if this is the wedding that you want, nothing goes with this kind of occasion like a really good party.
posted by pickypicky at 9:41 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If you find yourself crying about this, then it does matter. That's okay. It is perfectly fine to want to be married to your boyfriend. You shouldn't have to talk yourself out of that desire. Some people don't want or need the symbolic commitment of a wedding or marriage proposal, but you do and that's not crazy. Asking you to marry him is one way he can signal his serious intention to be with you for the long-term.
I think you need to tell him that "one day" is too indeterminate for you and you need a time frame. That this matters a lot to you.
posted by Area Man at 9:50 AM on July 4, 2013 [63 favorites]
I think you need to tell him that "one day" is too indeterminate for you and you need a time frame. That this matters a lot to you.
posted by Area Man at 9:50 AM on July 4, 2013 [63 favorites]
First off, welcome to AskMetaFilter. Don't feel foolish. You did great.
We have discussed the institution of marriage many times and he insists he will ask me to marry him one day. I've been patiently waiting for that day to come, and it just never does.
What do your discussions entail? Do you discuss time frame? Do you talk about being married in X years or by Y age, or do you discuss landmarks like getting married after somebody graduates, after somebody is promoted, before/when you get pregnant, etc?
Because as you already know, this is about expectations. For you, five years might feel like a long time to be together without marrying. Say that's true: would your boyfriend be surprised to learn that fact? Do you remark about friends, "I can't believe they've been together for six years and he still hasn't proposed," or, "Can you believe he proposed to her after only two years?" Put differently: What's your expectation as to time frame, what is his expectation, and do you think it's reasonable—based on conversations you've had—for each of you to know the other's answer?
posted by cribcage at 9:54 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
We have discussed the institution of marriage many times and he insists he will ask me to marry him one day. I've been patiently waiting for that day to come, and it just never does.
What do your discussions entail? Do you discuss time frame? Do you talk about being married in X years or by Y age, or do you discuss landmarks like getting married after somebody graduates, after somebody is promoted, before/when you get pregnant, etc?
Because as you already know, this is about expectations. For you, five years might feel like a long time to be together without marrying. Say that's true: would your boyfriend be surprised to learn that fact? Do you remark about friends, "I can't believe they've been together for six years and he still hasn't proposed," or, "Can you believe he proposed to her after only two years?" Put differently: What's your expectation as to time frame, what is his expectation, and do you think it's reasonable—based on conversations you've had—for each of you to know the other's answer?
posted by cribcage at 9:54 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't want children, so have no great legal need for marriage
There are a bunch of advantages, legal, financial, and perhaps most importantly medical to formal marriage. It's not just about kids, it's also about being able to mold your lives together and to be able to be there for each other in the bad times. These are many of the reasons same-sex marriage is such a big deal. If you live in a place with assumed common-law status, like Quebec, where protections are very strong for permanent-but-unmarried couples, that's great, but in many other places, be careful of what you may take for granted.
It's unromantic and practical, but marriage is sometimes that too, and those considerations may be important for both the OP and her partner.
posted by bonehead at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2013 [36 favorites]
There are a bunch of advantages, legal, financial, and perhaps most importantly medical to formal marriage. It's not just about kids, it's also about being able to mold your lives together and to be able to be there for each other in the bad times. These are many of the reasons same-sex marriage is such a big deal. If you live in a place with assumed common-law status, like Quebec, where protections are very strong for permanent-but-unmarried couples, that's great, but in many other places, be careful of what you may take for granted.
It's unromantic and practical, but marriage is sometimes that too, and those considerations may be important for both the OP and her partner.
posted by bonehead at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2013 [36 favorites]
Happily unmarried. We do have a domestic partnership for some basic legal protections/insurance. But if it matters to you, it matters. There's nothing wrong with that.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
What does he say when you say "Lets set a date"?
posted by Jacqueline at 10:06 AM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 10:06 AM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
He doesn't want to marry you. He thinks that one day he might feel that way, but he does not feel that way now. He doesn't actually know if or when his feelings will change.
I'm not sure just giving up and dealing with it is really the best thing for you. Getting married one day doesn't seem like something anyone should have to compromise on.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:07 AM on July 4, 2013 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure just giving up and dealing with it is really the best thing for you. Getting married one day doesn't seem like something anyone should have to compromise on.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 10:07 AM on July 4, 2013 [11 favorites]
Why not broach the subject again, and then propose to him? If he says yes, great! If he says no, well, at least you know where you stand and you can move forward from there.
posted by MetalFingerz at 10:08 AM on July 4, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by MetalFingerz at 10:08 AM on July 4, 2013 [12 favorites]
If this is important to you, it should be important to him. You moved to a new country for him.
One of the biggest regrets of my life was not marrying my wife sooner. It didn't make any sense. We were separated, waited for each other, got reunited, returned together to my home country for a couple of years, but did not get married until essentially a family crisis forced us to. And we're still married 15 years later.
While there are the usual legal and financial benefits to getting married, there is also emotional stability to be found from formally committing to someone.
You really have to decide whether or not you want to stay with this fellow. You're still young enough to start again.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:13 AM on July 4, 2013 [15 favorites]
One of the biggest regrets of my life was not marrying my wife sooner. It didn't make any sense. We were separated, waited for each other, got reunited, returned together to my home country for a couple of years, but did not get married until essentially a family crisis forced us to. And we're still married 15 years later.
While there are the usual legal and financial benefits to getting married, there is also emotional stability to be found from formally committing to someone.
You really have to decide whether or not you want to stay with this fellow. You're still young enough to start again.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:13 AM on July 4, 2013 [15 favorites]
Is marriage THAT important?
Yes, if it's important to you, it most certainly is and you shouldn't feel bad for wanting it. What other people prioritize shouldn't really have any bearing on what you value, want or need.
I think you have to talk to your boyfriend about your feelings. You shouldn't be going through all of this without him knowing how it's affecting you. If you can't be honest and open about your feelings with your partner, who else?
Good luck!
posted by inturnaround at 10:16 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, if it's important to you, it most certainly is and you shouldn't feel bad for wanting it. What other people prioritize shouldn't really have any bearing on what you value, want or need.
I think you have to talk to your boyfriend about your feelings. You shouldn't be going through all of this without him knowing how it's affecting you. If you can't be honest and open about your feelings with your partner, who else?
Good luck!
posted by inturnaround at 10:16 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, if he's not super traditional, you can propose to him. I did; happily married for going-on four years. You might think, "Well, HE didn't make that big grand gesture--how do you know he's committed?"
I know because he married me!
I think being married is wonderful, but I think the focus on engagement and OMG must get married now can be sort of toxic for relationships. It can make you miss the forest for the trees.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:16 AM on July 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
I know because he married me!
I think being married is wonderful, but I think the focus on engagement and OMG must get married now can be sort of toxic for relationships. It can make you miss the forest for the trees.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:16 AM on July 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
Best answer: OH YAY one of my favorite topics! Hi, I was you! Very recently! My boyfriend and I have been together over 6 years now. For a while I didn't mention marriage AT ALL because I didn't want to scare him. But after 4 years or so, it started seeming pretty important. We don't want children and we aren't religious, but still it seemed like everyone else was getting married or engaged, we have a house together, we share 3 dogs, and well, isn't it what happens next?
We are not the best at verbal communication, so occasionally I would email him and say I wanted a commitment, it was important to me, I didn't understand what he was waiting on, etc. He would write back and say how he loves me so much and that was about it.
Finally this year, I lost my shit. I came home from work one night and blew up at him. My timing sucked because he had bought me flowers and dinner and stuff that were waiting for me...ha. But I said I was looking at apartments because I was tired of waiting. That if something happened to him RIGHT NOW I would have to move out of our house, and did that seem fair or like something he wanted to happen to someone he supposedly loves? I said that if marriage was never going to happen, he needed to just SAY IT so I could make a decision and move on with my life. That I love him, but that I'm sure I can love another. I said he deserved someone he WANTED to marry, not just the person who held out the longest.
I think saying all of that in person finally flipped the switch for him. We were engaged a month later. Things are great! I feel like he actually does love me and wants to spend his life with me. He feels excited about our future. He said that no other relationship ever got better and better---they all slowly deteriorated, but ours isn't like that. We like each other more every day and are looking forward to being 40, 50, retired together. We are going to go to Jamaica for a week and get married at the resort (free with a week stay!), and no one else is invited. I don't want to waste more money, and all I care about is the legality and getting a vacation so it'll be perfect for us.
Anyway, that's all my anecdata. I don't know you or your dude, obviously, but maybe try to figure out what he's resisting to. For my fiance (whut whut), it was worrying that we would stop liking each other because that was what he was used to. I think he also didn't want to change anything, because why fix shit that ain't broke?! But if it was do this or lose me, the decision was obvious. We used to think "husband" and "wife" sounded ugly, but now we can't wait to use those words for each other. Figure out what YOU want out of marriage, too. Maybe if you can express why it's important to you it will help? I heard a lot of, "it's just a piece of paper" for a few years, and I finally said, "If that's all it is, then why DON'T you want it?" That helped, too.
Good luck! You deserve the best, just like I told my husband-to-be! If he's not nuts about the idea of marrying you, then move on. But he might be scared, and that's a valid thing to work through too. Please memail me if you want. I seriously thought I would be in a 10-year relationship without marriage and just got engaged in April so it's pretty fresh for me!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 10:18 AM on July 4, 2013 [42 favorites]
We are not the best at verbal communication, so occasionally I would email him and say I wanted a commitment, it was important to me, I didn't understand what he was waiting on, etc. He would write back and say how he loves me so much and that was about it.
Finally this year, I lost my shit. I came home from work one night and blew up at him. My timing sucked because he had bought me flowers and dinner and stuff that were waiting for me...ha. But I said I was looking at apartments because I was tired of waiting. That if something happened to him RIGHT NOW I would have to move out of our house, and did that seem fair or like something he wanted to happen to someone he supposedly loves? I said that if marriage was never going to happen, he needed to just SAY IT so I could make a decision and move on with my life. That I love him, but that I'm sure I can love another. I said he deserved someone he WANTED to marry, not just the person who held out the longest.
I think saying all of that in person finally flipped the switch for him. We were engaged a month later. Things are great! I feel like he actually does love me and wants to spend his life with me. He feels excited about our future. He said that no other relationship ever got better and better---they all slowly deteriorated, but ours isn't like that. We like each other more every day and are looking forward to being 40, 50, retired together. We are going to go to Jamaica for a week and get married at the resort (free with a week stay!), and no one else is invited. I don't want to waste more money, and all I care about is the legality and getting a vacation so it'll be perfect for us.
Anyway, that's all my anecdata. I don't know you or your dude, obviously, but maybe try to figure out what he's resisting to. For my fiance (whut whut), it was worrying that we would stop liking each other because that was what he was used to. I think he also didn't want to change anything, because why fix shit that ain't broke?! But if it was do this or lose me, the decision was obvious. We used to think "husband" and "wife" sounded ugly, but now we can't wait to use those words for each other. Figure out what YOU want out of marriage, too. Maybe if you can express why it's important to you it will help? I heard a lot of, "it's just a piece of paper" for a few years, and I finally said, "If that's all it is, then why DON'T you want it?" That helped, too.
Good luck! You deserve the best, just like I told my husband-to-be! If he's not nuts about the idea of marrying you, then move on. But he might be scared, and that's a valid thing to work through too. Please memail me if you want. I seriously thought I would be in a 10-year relationship without marriage and just got engaged in April so it's pretty fresh for me!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 10:18 AM on July 4, 2013 [42 favorites]
My question is this: Is marriage THAT important? Are any of you happily un-married? If you are un-married, do you still secretly WISH for that proposal? What can I do to banish these unwelcome thoughts and just be grateful for what I have!?
This is clearly a thing for you. I get that you don't think it should be, and don't want it to be - but there it is: this is a thing for you. There's no shame in that, and I think you need to be more honest with yourself about it. And so what if you haven't always felt that way - things and people change.
So, if it means that much to you, I think you should ask him to marry you.
Of course, there is a risk involved in that. And if he says no, or doesn't want to "right now", what does that mean for you and him as a couple ? There is no universal right answer, just what is right for you. Still, You should think about that and prepare beforehand.
For me and my wife - I would never have asked her to marry me. Marriage was never a life goal of mine and never something I saw myself as doing. It was for her, and so... it became a goal for me - because partnership and all that. So, she asked me, and now we have been for years.
But, thats how *we* work. She needs to tell me what she wants because I am not a mind reader and anyway probably have different goals. And I have to tell her for the same reasons. And then we work it out.
Different strokes and everything else applies. But if you were my squeeze, I'd expect you to be clear about your feelings on marriage as an actual goal instead of a maybe/perhaps/sometime sorta goal.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:18 AM on July 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
This is clearly a thing for you. I get that you don't think it should be, and don't want it to be - but there it is: this is a thing for you. There's no shame in that, and I think you need to be more honest with yourself about it. And so what if you haven't always felt that way - things and people change.
So, if it means that much to you, I think you should ask him to marry you.
Of course, there is a risk involved in that. And if he says no, or doesn't want to "right now", what does that mean for you and him as a couple ? There is no universal right answer, just what is right for you. Still, You should think about that and prepare beforehand.
For me and my wife - I would never have asked her to marry me. Marriage was never a life goal of mine and never something I saw myself as doing. It was for her, and so... it became a goal for me - because partnership and all that. So, she asked me, and now we have been for years.
But, thats how *we* work. She needs to tell me what she wants because I am not a mind reader and anyway probably have different goals. And I have to tell her for the same reasons. And then we work it out.
Different strokes and everything else applies. But if you were my squeeze, I'd expect you to be clear about your feelings on marriage as an actual goal instead of a maybe/perhaps/sometime sorta goal.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:18 AM on July 4, 2013 [7 favorites]
It is absolutely ok to want to get married. You are not sad and pathetic for wanting that! It's completely ok to want that outward sign of commitment from your partner. I really HATE the trope of MARRIAGE AND BABY HUNGRY WOMEN, AREN'T THEY PITIFUL, AMIRITE. NO. No, they are not pitiful and you are not right.
I'm like you, kind of cynical, I'm mouthy and sarcastic and not romantic AT ALL, but I'm super-excited to be engaged to my fiance because I like the idea of the two of us against the world! Joined together through the bonds of matrimony to file taxes jointly and fight crime! (Welll, maybe not that last one.) We live together now and I love it, but I wouldn't be happy long-term without marriage being on the table. And it's not because I'm conservative, religious or overly moral. Marriage is just important to me.
I think you might want to consider talking a bit more concretely to your partner about wanting a firmer time frame for marriage. My guy was very intent that we wouldn't get engaged until we had lived together for 9 months. This seemed arbitrary to me, but it was important to him, so it was cool. We picked out engagement rings for each other (Yes, he has one, too) and ordered them from Etsy. They magically arrived on the same day and we proposed to each other in the kitchen. Then we went out for lunch. It was not a super-romantic, fancy, planned-in-advance proposal, but it was very us and it makes me happy to remember it. We're going away to get married in 3 months. Part of what got us going to actually get off our butts to buy rings and make arrangements was hitting on an idea for our wedding that we actually got excited about. Neither of us is traditional and we weren't interested in a big white dress or a church. Maybe your partner isn't either and wants to marry you but isn't interested in the whole WEDDING INDUSTRY?
Talk to him. Your wishes and desires about marriage are reasonable and important to you. You deserve to be heard by your partner and he deserves to hear what's in your heart. (I just realized that I've been assuming through this that you are a lady because your user name is Jen. Apologies if I'm incorrect!)
posted by Aquifer at 10:20 AM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]
I'm like you, kind of cynical, I'm mouthy and sarcastic and not romantic AT ALL, but I'm super-excited to be engaged to my fiance because I like the idea of the two of us against the world! Joined together through the bonds of matrimony to file taxes jointly and fight crime! (Welll, maybe not that last one.) We live together now and I love it, but I wouldn't be happy long-term without marriage being on the table. And it's not because I'm conservative, religious or overly moral. Marriage is just important to me.
I think you might want to consider talking a bit more concretely to your partner about wanting a firmer time frame for marriage. My guy was very intent that we wouldn't get engaged until we had lived together for 9 months. This seemed arbitrary to me, but it was important to him, so it was cool. We picked out engagement rings for each other (Yes, he has one, too) and ordered them from Etsy. They magically arrived on the same day and we proposed to each other in the kitchen. Then we went out for lunch. It was not a super-romantic, fancy, planned-in-advance proposal, but it was very us and it makes me happy to remember it. We're going away to get married in 3 months. Part of what got us going to actually get off our butts to buy rings and make arrangements was hitting on an idea for our wedding that we actually got excited about. Neither of us is traditional and we weren't interested in a big white dress or a church. Maybe your partner isn't either and wants to marry you but isn't interested in the whole WEDDING INDUSTRY?
Talk to him. Your wishes and desires about marriage are reasonable and important to you. You deserve to be heard by your partner and he deserves to hear what's in your heart. (I just realized that I've been assuming through this that you are a lady because your user name is Jen. Apologies if I'm incorrect!)
posted by Aquifer at 10:20 AM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]
The website APracticalWedding.com calls this state "pre-engagement" and has lots of articles about this.
All posts tagged "waiting to get engaged" are listed via the next link. I tried to pick out a few that might be relevant, but really all their posts are really good in different ways.
http://apracticalwedding.com/tag/waiting-to-get-engaged/
What you are feeling is what you are feeling, and that's okay. It isn't wrong or weird, and in fact it's really really common. You aren't alone, and there is no "right feel" or "wrong feel", there's only the two of you and how you navigate your relationship.
Good luck.
posted by rakaidan at 10:22 AM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
All posts tagged "waiting to get engaged" are listed via the next link. I tried to pick out a few that might be relevant, but really all their posts are really good in different ways.
http://apracticalwedding.com/tag/waiting-to-get-engaged/
What you are feeling is what you are feeling, and that's okay. It isn't wrong or weird, and in fact it's really really common. You aren't alone, and there is no "right feel" or "wrong feel", there's only the two of you and how you navigate your relationship.
Good luck.
posted by rakaidan at 10:22 AM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Weddings and rings don't have to be scary and expensive. That may be some reason you are afraid to talk about it? Maybe that you don't want to say "Give me an expensive ring now"?
My ring is beautiful hand cut CZ set in gold, and I have a titanium band. It cost less than $300 for the set and you would never know it didn't cost $2000. My wedding dress was an ivory cocktail dress, and we got married in the courthouse around close family.
There was very litte planning, formality, expense, or pressure in my situation and getting married in the courthouse is totally 100% fine. It is completely fine to talk about commitment with him. Just bring it up calmly and talk about the advantages of why you want to make that commitment with him. Tell him that you understand he is committed but you would like to get married.
Anecdotal: My husband and I were planning on getting married. We didn't have a ring yet. We talked about it quite casually and became confortable with the subject early on. (However we both knew we wanted to get married in general, this may not be your case.) I accidentally found my dress, and flat out asked my husband if he would marry me earlier - at the dressing rooms of a department store. Then we got a ring a few months later and married a few months after that.
My husband was one of those people who said, "Yes, I would like to be married, but I will be committed to you no matter what piece of paper we have." Yet, after getting a marriage licence things ARE much easier legally, and having that official commitment was very romantic and we both liked it much more than we thought, including him.
posted by Crystalinne at 10:32 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
My ring is beautiful hand cut CZ set in gold, and I have a titanium band. It cost less than $300 for the set and you would never know it didn't cost $2000. My wedding dress was an ivory cocktail dress, and we got married in the courthouse around close family.
There was very litte planning, formality, expense, or pressure in my situation and getting married in the courthouse is totally 100% fine. It is completely fine to talk about commitment with him. Just bring it up calmly and talk about the advantages of why you want to make that commitment with him. Tell him that you understand he is committed but you would like to get married.
Anecdotal: My husband and I were planning on getting married. We didn't have a ring yet. We talked about it quite casually and became confortable with the subject early on. (However we both knew we wanted to get married in general, this may not be your case.) I accidentally found my dress, and flat out asked my husband if he would marry me earlier - at the dressing rooms of a department store. Then we got a ring a few months later and married a few months after that.
My husband was one of those people who said, "Yes, I would like to be married, but I will be committed to you no matter what piece of paper we have." Yet, after getting a marriage licence things ARE much easier legally, and having that official commitment was very romantic and we both liked it much more than we thought, including him.
posted by Crystalinne at 10:32 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm another one who was you a while ago and is now happily married. It drove me crazy feeling like we were on different pages regarding our relationship. We'd been together 6 years and were very happy but both came from difficult family backgrounds. My husband was more afraid than me and was just keeping his head in the sand I think. I ended up crying and ranting and absolutely hated myself for it. I also hated him for putting me in that position.
What worked was sitting him down and explaining calmly why I wanted to be married and just listening to his reservations without trying to combat them. I explained that I'd never wanted to be married before but that I loved our relationship and it was now important to me. He said he wanted to marry but just didn't feel ready.
I agreed to leave it alone for 6 months so he could think about it. No hassling no hinting. I just backed right off (and talked to my girl friends about it instead!). He proposed 4 months later and has been an enthusiastic participant in both our wedding and our marriage. I needed to be clear about what I wanted. After that he just really needed the time to think through his hopes and fears for himself without the pressure from me.
Also, just to note, I never wanted to be married or thought it important but I really love it and find it meaningful now that we are husband and wife. It's ok to want this.
posted by Dorothia at 10:36 AM on July 4, 2013 [9 favorites]
What worked was sitting him down and explaining calmly why I wanted to be married and just listening to his reservations without trying to combat them. I explained that I'd never wanted to be married before but that I loved our relationship and it was now important to me. He said he wanted to marry but just didn't feel ready.
I agreed to leave it alone for 6 months so he could think about it. No hassling no hinting. I just backed right off (and talked to my girl friends about it instead!). He proposed 4 months later and has been an enthusiastic participant in both our wedding and our marriage. I needed to be clear about what I wanted. After that he just really needed the time to think through his hopes and fears for himself without the pressure from me.
Also, just to note, I never wanted to be married or thought it important but I really love it and find it meaningful now that we are husband and wife. It's ok to want this.
posted by Dorothia at 10:36 AM on July 4, 2013 [9 favorites]
We have discussed the institution of marriage many times and he insists he will ask me to marry him one day.
This strikes me as incredibly cruel. He knows you have strong feelings about this and it's something you want. So he keeps dangling "someday" in front of you, possibly forever? Even though the uncertainty pains you so much it makes you cry? I mean, even if he doesn't actively enjoy watching you hurt and it makes him uncomfortable, it's still not as uncomfortable as actually committing.
But also, you may be thinking of proposal as a hot air balloon with champagne and dancing bears, but it's actually just when one person proposes the situation of a marriage to the other. You have proposed several times, and he has said no. Like, he doesn't even want to do one of those vaguegagements where you just don't get around to getting married for years. He doesn't want to commit to commit to marrying you. For whatever reason, which it doesn't sound like he's shared with you. He could fix your discomfort just by telling you 2015 or when he gets a promotion or when humans walk on the moon again. But he won't do that.
Is that okay with you? Not just not getting married, but how he has treated you about it? Given that you're asking a question about how to not be hurt by something that hurts you, it seems like no, that's not okay. And it's hard to not want what you want. You will probably have to do a lot of lying to yourself to not want it, or you're going to have to have some hard talks.
I think it's time to stop dangling and sit down and have a grown-up conversation about what "some day" means and what you want and what your course of action is going to be. Maybe this is just a communication problem and once you guys hash out a shared vocabulary you'll realize that the situation isn't as uncertain as you thought and you'll find it was just the uncertainty that was killing you and now you feel fine. You may also find out you're never getting married, and either knowing that for sure will be enough or you'll at least be able to make a decision instead of waiting and waiting.
Also, your relationship has no chance of lasting if you cannot communicate, married or not.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:39 AM on July 4, 2013 [22 favorites]
This strikes me as incredibly cruel. He knows you have strong feelings about this and it's something you want. So he keeps dangling "someday" in front of you, possibly forever? Even though the uncertainty pains you so much it makes you cry? I mean, even if he doesn't actively enjoy watching you hurt and it makes him uncomfortable, it's still not as uncomfortable as actually committing.
But also, you may be thinking of proposal as a hot air balloon with champagne and dancing bears, but it's actually just when one person proposes the situation of a marriage to the other. You have proposed several times, and he has said no. Like, he doesn't even want to do one of those vaguegagements where you just don't get around to getting married for years. He doesn't want to commit to commit to marrying you. For whatever reason, which it doesn't sound like he's shared with you. He could fix your discomfort just by telling you 2015 or when he gets a promotion or when humans walk on the moon again. But he won't do that.
Is that okay with you? Not just not getting married, but how he has treated you about it? Given that you're asking a question about how to not be hurt by something that hurts you, it seems like no, that's not okay. And it's hard to not want what you want. You will probably have to do a lot of lying to yourself to not want it, or you're going to have to have some hard talks.
I think it's time to stop dangling and sit down and have a grown-up conversation about what "some day" means and what you want and what your course of action is going to be. Maybe this is just a communication problem and once you guys hash out a shared vocabulary you'll realize that the situation isn't as uncertain as you thought and you'll find it was just the uncertainty that was killing you and now you feel fine. You may also find out you're never getting married, and either knowing that for sure will be enough or you'll at least be able to make a decision instead of waiting and waiting.
Also, your relationship has no chance of lasting if you cannot communicate, married or not.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:39 AM on July 4, 2013 [22 favorites]
My story -we were together for seven years before getting married, living together for three, had already bought a house, etc. He had said he was never getting married again. I was good with that for a while. Then, I changed my mind. We're in the US, and he works freelance, so, unless we were married, he would need to shell out tons of money for health insurance. I told him I was worried about the lack of health insurance, because I love him, and feared what could happen if he got sick. We've been married nine years now. Don't discuss it when you've had a few drinks, that ends poorly. Took me a while to figure that one out. Good luck!
posted by kellyblah at 10:50 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by kellyblah at 10:50 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not religious and don't desire a big wedding because I don't like to be the center of attention. However, marriage is important to me as a commitment. Because marriage is generally the standard arrangement (whether that's good or not is irrelevant) it's hard not to feel like your SO has a strong reason for NOT wanting to marry you. For me, depending on what that reason is, that can really sting.
posted by Valkyrie21 at 11:03 AM on July 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Valkyrie21 at 11:03 AM on July 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I'm in a boat not entirely dis-similar to yours - 9 years, no engagement - I've been through phases where I'm Losing My Sh!t over whether or not we'll ever get married or does it mean he just doesn't really want to make a life with me?? and all that. Sometimes people will tell you that not marrying means really they don't care what you want, or that saying 'someday' but having it drag out really means 'never'. I'm not sure either of those is true but sometimes I've gone through phases of being scared that it is.
Some of it is that we are very busy. Some of it is that most of our friends aren't married and it feels like we're too young (under thirty). Some of it is 'why fix what ain't broken?'. Some of it is waiting for life to be perfect (life will never be perfect, but marriage kind of says 'I'm ready to be an adult' and I'm still trying to move from temp positions to something shaped like a career.). Some of it is that we are both scared.
For me my own hesitation only comes out when I stop thinking about him "showing commitment" - he should want to get married, he should propose - and start thinking about afterward where I have to actually say yes, sign paperwork meaning he gets half my stuff if we ever divorce, etc.
I suspect the more confident I am in his commitment to me and my commitment to him, the less I feel the need to push for the symbols. My family has kind of gotten used to it after 9 years and so they're not really pushing me any more either, which helps a lot in terms of not feeling like something must be wrong with us. But when I do feel like something is not right or not stable enough in our relationship, subconsciously I think it makes me start to want that ring...
posted by Lady Li at 11:10 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Some of it is that we are very busy. Some of it is that most of our friends aren't married and it feels like we're too young (under thirty). Some of it is 'why fix what ain't broken?'. Some of it is waiting for life to be perfect (life will never be perfect, but marriage kind of says 'I'm ready to be an adult' and I'm still trying to move from temp positions to something shaped like a career.). Some of it is that we are both scared.
For me my own hesitation only comes out when I stop thinking about him "showing commitment" - he should want to get married, he should propose - and start thinking about afterward where I have to actually say yes, sign paperwork meaning he gets half my stuff if we ever divorce, etc.
I suspect the more confident I am in his commitment to me and my commitment to him, the less I feel the need to push for the symbols. My family has kind of gotten used to it after 9 years and so they're not really pushing me any more either, which helps a lot in terms of not feeling like something must be wrong with us. But when I do feel like something is not right or not stable enough in our relationship, subconsciously I think it makes me start to want that ring...
posted by Lady Li at 11:10 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Marriage is not really insignificant because it bundles up a variety of legal commitments and protections. A few weeks ago, somebody posted a question about getting married for health insurance, even though really the legally binding part of it is trivial... but no, at least the way I see it it's not trivial, because by having the legal ceremony the couple are legally committing to provide for each other's sickness and health, as well as in a variety of other ways. It's mundane and practical, but it's not trivial.
What you want is for your guy to make a legal and public commitment to being partnered to you. If it made no difference, you wouldn't want it so badly and he wouldn't be reluctant to do it. This is true whether you think it should be or not.
It also matters because it is causing you great distress and you are crying about it frequently. I am not going to say "it matters because its important to you" because, in yet another thread, we have a case of someone throwing a strop over getting the wrong kind of birthday cake and unless her reaction is about something else, that is an example of someone getting wound up over nothing and having invalid emotional reactions. It happens. I don't think that's what is happening with you. I don't think that you are also getting wound up over nothing.
I don't want to suggest your BF is a bad or evil guy for not giving you what you want, exactly, but he sure is leaving you hanging and the effect is to emotionally torture you.
I think, as hard as it is, and as much as you want to convince yourself it doesn't matter, that this is a dealbreaker for you. I also think you have to face the fact that "someday" may never come. In your position I would seriously consider breaking up with him over this.
Because whether or not he intends to, the fact is he is stringing you along, and you are being strung along, and in my experience nobody who strings you along ever gives you what you are longing for.
I also think that if he does want to spend the rest of his life with you deep down, and you break up with him, he will come back to you with a concrete proposal. But you can't break up with him in order to get him to do this. You have to be genuinely willing to walk away, and not expect him ever to come back to you with a proposal. He may also come back to you but with a pale imitation of what you want, and if this happens, you will have to recognize it for what it is and have the strength to say no to him.
I know it sounds drastic, but the reality is you are very unhappy and it's not likely to get better by convincing yourself that you shouldn't want what you want (given that it is a reasonable thing to want).
posted by tel3path at 11:16 AM on July 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
What you want is for your guy to make a legal and public commitment to being partnered to you. If it made no difference, you wouldn't want it so badly and he wouldn't be reluctant to do it. This is true whether you think it should be or not.
It also matters because it is causing you great distress and you are crying about it frequently. I am not going to say "it matters because its important to you" because, in yet another thread, we have a case of someone throwing a strop over getting the wrong kind of birthday cake and unless her reaction is about something else, that is an example of someone getting wound up over nothing and having invalid emotional reactions. It happens. I don't think that's what is happening with you. I don't think that you are also getting wound up over nothing.
I don't want to suggest your BF is a bad or evil guy for not giving you what you want, exactly, but he sure is leaving you hanging and the effect is to emotionally torture you.
I think, as hard as it is, and as much as you want to convince yourself it doesn't matter, that this is a dealbreaker for you. I also think you have to face the fact that "someday" may never come. In your position I would seriously consider breaking up with him over this.
Because whether or not he intends to, the fact is he is stringing you along, and you are being strung along, and in my experience nobody who strings you along ever gives you what you are longing for.
I also think that if he does want to spend the rest of his life with you deep down, and you break up with him, he will come back to you with a concrete proposal. But you can't break up with him in order to get him to do this. You have to be genuinely willing to walk away, and not expect him ever to come back to you with a proposal. He may also come back to you but with a pale imitation of what you want, and if this happens, you will have to recognize it for what it is and have the strength to say no to him.
I know it sounds drastic, but the reality is you are very unhappy and it's not likely to get better by convincing yourself that you shouldn't want what you want (given that it is a reasonable thing to want).
posted by tel3path at 11:16 AM on July 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
This strikes me as incredibly cruel. He knows you have strong feelings about this and it's something you want. So he keeps dangling "someday" in front of you, possibly forever? Even though the uncertainty pains you so much it makes you cry? I mean, even if he doesn't actively enjoy watching you hurt and it makes him uncomfortable, it's still not as uncomfortable as actually committing.
I want to reiterate this comment. You've effectively proposed to him. What he's doing is the equivalent of you responding to his down-on-one-knee proposal with, "Well... I think I want to marry you someday. I'll let you know when I decide for sure."
I mean, he might not even realize he's doing this, because it's just gender roles and the script we have with heterosexual relationships. But I think you should communicate to him how hurtful this is for you.
posted by Asparagus at 11:26 AM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]
I want to reiterate this comment. You've effectively proposed to him. What he's doing is the equivalent of you responding to his down-on-one-knee proposal with, "Well... I think I want to marry you someday. I'll let you know when I decide for sure."
I mean, he might not even realize he's doing this, because it's just gender roles and the script we have with heterosexual relationships. But I think you should communicate to him how hurtful this is for you.
posted by Asparagus at 11:26 AM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]
For various reasons, some people don't want to be married at certain ages, or during/until certain periods in their lives. Some folks feel the same about being engaged, and many people have negative feelings or ideas about being engaged for longer than X-amount of time. And so the entire issue sometimes gets stuck in a drawer, mentally.
Those are some things worth keeping in mind before adopting the bad-faith interpretation of your boyfriend's actions that some here have proffered. It's part of why discussing the concept of marriage isn't equivalent to discussing marriage in the context of your relationship and respective lives. Many couples do the former while believing they're doing the latter. "Sure, we've talked about marriage. He said he wants to get married and he wants to have kids. That's talking about marriage, right?" It isn't really.
posted by cribcage at 11:41 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Those are some things worth keeping in mind before adopting the bad-faith interpretation of your boyfriend's actions that some here have proffered. It's part of why discussing the concept of marriage isn't equivalent to discussing marriage in the context of your relationship and respective lives. Many couples do the former while believing they're doing the latter. "Sure, we've talked about marriage. He said he wants to get married and he wants to have kids. That's talking about marriage, right?" It isn't really.
posted by cribcage at 11:41 AM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
You might not like this one but I wanted to give another perspective. I was exactly in your position. Not religious, didn't want kids, divorced parents so I never had the "happily ever after" fantasy. Loved my SO so much and he did me. We were together for 9 years before he proposed. It was one of only 2 recurring arguments we had. I watched everyone I know get married, and my feeling was "why won't he say I'm the one he wants?" To me that's all it symbolises. In fact as soon as he proposed I was like, this will do. You've "picked" me and that's enough. But we had the wedding. Then I met someone else and he would marry me tomorrow if he could. I never believed in The One and now I do. You can love someone immensely, and still be able to live without them. My SO could live without me and I him. Not so with the other person. Basically no matter how unpopular this might be, you deserve someone who can't live without you. If that was the case I think he'd have made sure of it by now and you wouldn't have to ask or force yourself to be patient or reasonable or whatever. Can you live without him? If you think you can, I'd think about trying it. I wish you well whatever happens.
posted by outoftime at 11:50 AM on July 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by outoftime at 11:50 AM on July 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I really appreciate everyone's answers so far.
I think people are right in suggesting I need to be more forthright in my communication with my BF and start setting some actual boundaries and being more definite in my phrasing.
I would also like to say that I really do not consider myself having actually "proposed" to my boyfriend, and I'm certain that he doesn't either. That's also not a route I have any interest in going down, not that it doesn't work in some instances, it's just not for me.
posted by JenThePro at 11:52 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think people are right in suggesting I need to be more forthright in my communication with my BF and start setting some actual boundaries and being more definite in my phrasing.
I would also like to say that I really do not consider myself having actually "proposed" to my boyfriend, and I'm certain that he doesn't either. That's also not a route I have any interest in going down, not that it doesn't work in some instances, it's just not for me.
posted by JenThePro at 11:52 AM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You are not wrong for wanting to be married. There is nothing wrong with marriage. Marriage affords us certain social and legal privilages and that's why everyone should be allowed to marry.
Now, either he wants to marry you, in which case, why not now? Or he doesn't, in which case, are you willing to stick around if that's the case?
A good script to open this conversation is, "I love you and I want to marry you, and I want to do it before the end of the year. How do you feel about that plan?"
Some men don't want to marry, and that's them. Some guys would go on indefinitely if you'd go along with it. Some guys need a kick in the ass, because of intertia, but once you get them rolling, they're totally on board. Some guys can't WAIT to marry you, because he loves you that much and wants to make you happy.
So...which one would YOU rather marry?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2013 [16 favorites]
Now, either he wants to marry you, in which case, why not now? Or he doesn't, in which case, are you willing to stick around if that's the case?
A good script to open this conversation is, "I love you and I want to marry you, and I want to do it before the end of the year. How do you feel about that plan?"
Some men don't want to marry, and that's them. Some guys would go on indefinitely if you'd go along with it. Some guys need a kick in the ass, because of intertia, but once you get them rolling, they're totally on board. Some guys can't WAIT to marry you, because he loves you that much and wants to make you happy.
So...which one would YOU rather marry?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2013 [16 favorites]
Why would you want someone you have to cajole, negotiate with, or otherwise give ultimatums to get them to marry you??
I divorced at 31, met a man MUCH better for me than my previous partner, married happily, and we have an awesome child.
You can and should cut bait and start over. This guy is stringing you along, he IS cruel.
Reading you justify and equivocate your feelings about marriage was painful and made me think: "YUCK. This guy is an asshole!"
In short, RUN.
My husband and I knew each other for two months, dated for two weeks, and next week we celebrate our 5th wedding anniversary. My husband is also not from the country I was born in (the US) where we are married and live. That's how it's done.
Your guy is a jerk for jerking you around. Ditch him.
You do NOT want a lifetime of begging for things that are important to you. Marriage is awesome, but it's also hard work. I can't stress this enough to you.
If you guys are not on the same page now, naturally, then please please don't marry this guy.
Deciding to marry is the easy part. It's the next 40+ years together that is the real test.
Your guy won't even sit down to take the exam. He's already failed you. RUN.
posted by jbenben at 12:06 PM on July 4, 2013 [12 favorites]
I divorced at 31, met a man MUCH better for me than my previous partner, married happily, and we have an awesome child.
You can and should cut bait and start over. This guy is stringing you along, he IS cruel.
Reading you justify and equivocate your feelings about marriage was painful and made me think: "YUCK. This guy is an asshole!"
In short, RUN.
My husband and I knew each other for two months, dated for two weeks, and next week we celebrate our 5th wedding anniversary. My husband is also not from the country I was born in (the US) where we are married and live. That's how it's done.
Your guy is a jerk for jerking you around. Ditch him.
You do NOT want a lifetime of begging for things that are important to you. Marriage is awesome, but it's also hard work. I can't stress this enough to you.
If you guys are not on the same page now, naturally, then please please don't marry this guy.
Deciding to marry is the easy part. It's the next 40+ years together that is the real test.
Your guy won't even sit down to take the exam. He's already failed you. RUN.
posted by jbenben at 12:06 PM on July 4, 2013 [12 favorites]
I hate to break it to you, but he doesn't want to marry you. I know it's easiest to believe that you guys are solid no matter what, but he's undecided about you in a way that is going to make you feel worse and worse.
You know something isn't right. It's time to start stepping away, make real life plans just for yourself. This guy isn't on board.
You should read the website "Baggage Reclaim." I think you'll end up seeing something there that will help you better understand yourself.
posted by discopolo at 12:07 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
You know something isn't right. It's time to start stepping away, make real life plans just for yourself. This guy isn't on board.
You should read the website "Baggage Reclaim." I think you'll end up seeing something there that will help you better understand yourself.
posted by discopolo at 12:07 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
"I love you and I want to marry you, and I want to do it before the end of the year. How do you feel about that plan?"
I really like this line from Ruthless Bunny. I agree with everyone here who said the first thing you need to do is get over the idea that there is anything wrong with wanting to marry him, and wanting him to commit to a definite date for that.
I think that oftentimes the reason women feel bad or guilty about wanting to get married (apart from the shitty script in circulation that casts you as desperate for wanting it) is that the bad feelings are a way to silence yourself from saying the kind of thing Ruthless Bunny suggested. And the reason women want to silence themselves -- the reason they're afraid to say, plainly and clearly, "I need a timeline from you" -- is because there is a silent corollary to that statement: "This is what I need, and if you can't provide it, we need to go our separate ways."
That silent corollary makes them panic. It makes them think, "But we're so happy as we are now. Don't I love him enough to stay with him, regardless? I mean, marriage isn't such a big deal. Isn't it shallow, isn't it disgustingly conventional, for me to say I won't stay with him if we don't get married?"
But here's the thing: respect your needs. For a moment, stop thinking of marriage as something unique, something in its own special category. Think of it, instead, as being like any other need. And then consider this: you want a partner who is respectful of your needs and willing to compromise to meet them.
If you explain why marriage is important and ask for a timeline, only to discover that he can't give one -- then he has shown he is not, ultimately, the right partner for you: he is not willing to understand and respect your need and find out a way to meet it.
Incompatibility is a sound reason to walk away, even when there's great love there. Keep that in mind, and have a talk with him.
posted by artemisia at 12:09 PM on July 4, 2013 [20 favorites]
I really like this line from Ruthless Bunny. I agree with everyone here who said the first thing you need to do is get over the idea that there is anything wrong with wanting to marry him, and wanting him to commit to a definite date for that.
I think that oftentimes the reason women feel bad or guilty about wanting to get married (apart from the shitty script in circulation that casts you as desperate for wanting it) is that the bad feelings are a way to silence yourself from saying the kind of thing Ruthless Bunny suggested. And the reason women want to silence themselves -- the reason they're afraid to say, plainly and clearly, "I need a timeline from you" -- is because there is a silent corollary to that statement: "This is what I need, and if you can't provide it, we need to go our separate ways."
That silent corollary makes them panic. It makes them think, "But we're so happy as we are now. Don't I love him enough to stay with him, regardless? I mean, marriage isn't such a big deal. Isn't it shallow, isn't it disgustingly conventional, for me to say I won't stay with him if we don't get married?"
But here's the thing: respect your needs. For a moment, stop thinking of marriage as something unique, something in its own special category. Think of it, instead, as being like any other need. And then consider this: you want a partner who is respectful of your needs and willing to compromise to meet them.
If you explain why marriage is important and ask for a timeline, only to discover that he can't give one -- then he has shown he is not, ultimately, the right partner for you: he is not willing to understand and respect your need and find out a way to meet it.
Incompatibility is a sound reason to walk away, even when there's great love there. Keep that in mind, and have a talk with him.
posted by artemisia at 12:09 PM on July 4, 2013 [20 favorites]
Best answer: I'd advise you to take all the answers here (including mine!) with a huge grain of salt. People feel strongly about marriage and lots of us are bringing baggage to this. That's probably obvious :-)
FWIW I've been married, and I wouldn't do it again. I think the central effect of marriage is to take the relationship out of the realm of personal/individual/private, and into the realm of public/official/legal. Some of that is positive -- societal affirmation and support, tax breaks and legal protections. But some is negative: societal expectations you may not like, legal obligations that are hard (time, money) to dissolve, even if you both want to. My then-husband and I would both have been better off if we'd kept our relationship in the private realm rather than making a legal commitment to each other.
YMMV. It's really up to the two of you. I think the considerations emilyw named upthread are the right ones. If you don't want a big party or kids, those are two arguments in favour of marriage that don't apply to you. If you are religious, if you want the affirmation of your friends and family or the legal protections -- those are arguments in favour of marriage. If you are mostly interested in the personal emotional commitment to each other then you should ask yourself if there are other ways to get that --a private non-official ritual/ceremony may do the trick, for example.
I'll also point out in case you don't know that research has found women's happiness on average goes down after getting married, whereas men's happiness on average goes up. Marriage helps a man's career for example, but hurts a woman's. Societal expectations about what marriage is and how it works tend to hurt women and help men. That may not be true for you and your partner, of course, but it generally is true.
I think you and your boyfriend should talk more about marriage and commitment -- what the words mean for you both, and what your expectations and hopes and dreams are.
I also am uneasy that you're framing this as his decision. You actually seem as ambivalent as he does. That's why I think you should talk about it seriously together. It may be that neither of you wants to be married, and I think you owe it to yourself to get clearer about your own feelings, as well as talking about his.
posted by Susan PG at 12:11 PM on July 4, 2013 [9 favorites]
FWIW I've been married, and I wouldn't do it again. I think the central effect of marriage is to take the relationship out of the realm of personal/individual/private, and into the realm of public/official/legal. Some of that is positive -- societal affirmation and support, tax breaks and legal protections. But some is negative: societal expectations you may not like, legal obligations that are hard (time, money) to dissolve, even if you both want to. My then-husband and I would both have been better off if we'd kept our relationship in the private realm rather than making a legal commitment to each other.
YMMV. It's really up to the two of you. I think the considerations emilyw named upthread are the right ones. If you don't want a big party or kids, those are two arguments in favour of marriage that don't apply to you. If you are religious, if you want the affirmation of your friends and family or the legal protections -- those are arguments in favour of marriage. If you are mostly interested in the personal emotional commitment to each other then you should ask yourself if there are other ways to get that --a private non-official ritual/ceremony may do the trick, for example.
I'll also point out in case you don't know that research has found women's happiness on average goes down after getting married, whereas men's happiness on average goes up. Marriage helps a man's career for example, but hurts a woman's. Societal expectations about what marriage is and how it works tend to hurt women and help men. That may not be true for you and your partner, of course, but it generally is true.
I think you and your boyfriend should talk more about marriage and commitment -- what the words mean for you both, and what your expectations and hopes and dreams are.
I also am uneasy that you're framing this as his decision. You actually seem as ambivalent as he does. That's why I think you should talk about it seriously together. It may be that neither of you wants to be married, and I think you owe it to yourself to get clearer about your own feelings, as well as talking about his.
posted by Susan PG at 12:11 PM on July 4, 2013 [9 favorites]
You've gotten great advice. I'm a dude, and am fairly non-traditional and atheist type guy, and I have nothing but good things to say about marriage. It's been amazing. All I would add is:
That's also not a route I have any interest in going down, not that it doesn't work in some instances, it's just not for me.
Perhaps with an eye towards resolving this, you could examine your own reasons for not wanting to propose, and consider that he might have the same reasons?
posted by ftm at 12:22 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
That's also not a route I have any interest in going down, not that it doesn't work in some instances, it's just not for me.
Perhaps with an eye towards resolving this, you could examine your own reasons for not wanting to propose, and consider that he might have the same reasons?
posted by ftm at 12:22 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
I was you! Dating 5 years, we owned a house together, things were great; I desperately wanted to be married, he was very cool on the idea. He totally did the "someday we'll be married" thing, even in response to my direct proposals. It was very hurtful, and I cried about it a lot.
Finally, I gave him an ultimatum -- i told him that I wanted to have children, that I would only do that with a man I was married to, and that if he wasn't going to be my husband and the father of my children, that I needed to bounce and find the man who was. I gave him two more years to put a ring on my finger or I was walking.
That was in September of 2000. We got engaged August 27, 2002. Married eight months later, have now been happily married for ten years with two beautiful children, and it is wonderful. It turned out he had major baggage around the idea of marriage that he was unable or unwilling to work through until the alternative was ending our relationship. I am very glad I set the boundary, and very, VERY glad that he made the choices that he did. So yeah, for me, marriage really was that important.
posted by KathrynT at 12:28 PM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Finally, I gave him an ultimatum -- i told him that I wanted to have children, that I would only do that with a man I was married to, and that if he wasn't going to be my husband and the father of my children, that I needed to bounce and find the man who was. I gave him two more years to put a ring on my finger or I was walking.
That was in September of 2000. We got engaged August 27, 2002. Married eight months later, have now been happily married for ten years with two beautiful children, and it is wonderful. It turned out he had major baggage around the idea of marriage that he was unable or unwilling to work through until the alternative was ending our relationship. I am very glad I set the boundary, and very, VERY glad that he made the choices that he did. So yeah, for me, marriage really was that important.
posted by KathrynT at 12:28 PM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh I also wanted to say, some of his reservations may be more practical, like how to propose and how to find and buy a ring. My boyfriend was afraid he needed some crazy viral video-worthy proposal, because my dad is obsessed with engagement videos. I would DIE if I had a public proposal, a fact which really helped my boyfriend. Also I went on Etsy and found a bunch of rings and ran them by him and asked his price range, so we both ended up happy about that too. Not everything has to be romantic, and it might comfort him to know that!
posted by masquesoporfavor at 12:31 PM on July 4, 2013
posted by masquesoporfavor at 12:31 PM on July 4, 2013
Best answer: Couldn't disagree more with the thought that the relationship is doomed and that you should run.
Beyond the anecdotes above, a (female) friend was in a reasonably similar position, told the guy that she needed to be engaged, with his heart fully in it, in (something like) 8 months, married in (something like) 18 months.
They've been happily married for (something like) 15 years.
posted by ambient2 at 12:34 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Beyond the anecdotes above, a (female) friend was in a reasonably similar position, told the guy that she needed to be engaged, with his heart fully in it, in (something like) 8 months, married in (something like) 18 months.
They've been happily married for (something like) 15 years.
posted by ambient2 at 12:34 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
And the reason women want to silence themselves -- the reason they're afraid to say, plainly and clearly, "I need a timeline from you" -- is because there is a silent corollary to that statement: "This is what I need, and if you can't provide it, we need to go our separate ways."
But another reason is that the cultural myth around marriage says that if a guy really wants to be with you (or is, ahem, "that into you"), then he'll make a big, romantic surprise proposal and you'll never have to ask.
And if he doesn't do that, he's not emotionally committed to you. And if you have to push, he's not emotionally committed to you. And that if you ask him, he doesn't really love you--because if he did he'd be the one asking.
This is where I think these myths miss the forests for the trees. OP, I believe you that your boyfriend loves you and that you really are awesomely committed. And I also believe you that you have mixed feelings about marriage--pretty understandable these days, particularly if you're the child of divorced parents. But still, we absorb a lot of lessons about the romance of female passivity from everything from self-help books to the Disney stuff we watch when we're little girls. And when you're in your early 30s, and every woman on your facebook feed is engaged, married, popping out babies, it can be easy to fall back on that. What do they have that you don't? you might start to wonder. Why doesn't he love me like that?
Let me tell you something about marriage: I love it! It's great! I feel so secure! But the times when mine has been the most awesome and the healthiest are when I've openly communicated my feelings, without cajoling or guilt (because those habits will make it difficult for him to openly communicate his!). I know that so much of our cultural messaging says that women shouldn't be direct, and I get that you don't want to propose and it's not for you. But learning to communicate your needs in a grown-up way is like, #1 marriage skill. Trust me, the relationship you have with your husband depends on a solid platform of trust and openness. It's never too early to start.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:39 PM on July 4, 2013 [20 favorites]
But another reason is that the cultural myth around marriage says that if a guy really wants to be with you (or is, ahem, "that into you"), then he'll make a big, romantic surprise proposal and you'll never have to ask.
And if he doesn't do that, he's not emotionally committed to you. And if you have to push, he's not emotionally committed to you. And that if you ask him, he doesn't really love you--because if he did he'd be the one asking.
This is where I think these myths miss the forests for the trees. OP, I believe you that your boyfriend loves you and that you really are awesomely committed. And I also believe you that you have mixed feelings about marriage--pretty understandable these days, particularly if you're the child of divorced parents. But still, we absorb a lot of lessons about the romance of female passivity from everything from self-help books to the Disney stuff we watch when we're little girls. And when you're in your early 30s, and every woman on your facebook feed is engaged, married, popping out babies, it can be easy to fall back on that. What do they have that you don't? you might start to wonder. Why doesn't he love me like that?
Let me tell you something about marriage: I love it! It's great! I feel so secure! But the times when mine has been the most awesome and the healthiest are when I've openly communicated my feelings, without cajoling or guilt (because those habits will make it difficult for him to openly communicate his!). I know that so much of our cultural messaging says that women shouldn't be direct, and I get that you don't want to propose and it's not for you. But learning to communicate your needs in a grown-up way is like, #1 marriage skill. Trust me, the relationship you have with your husband depends on a solid platform of trust and openness. It's never too early to start.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 12:39 PM on July 4, 2013 [20 favorites]
I am in a similar "waiting" period but for slightly different reasons. My boyfriend and I have been together officially for 3 years, but on-off-fwb for more than a decade. Recently some things have changed in our lives that have upheaved them individually but in each case for the better. So overall we're happier and have begun to discuss a formal future together. In our case, we're completely uninterested in marriage for any religious reasons, we couldn't care less about what society condones about our relationship, nor are we interested in a traditional wedding. BUT, we also want to buy a house and are firmly committed to one another. In a sort of hippie, personal, way, we're effectively married to each other. But we also recognize that there might be some big financial and legal benefits to being married in which case we'd do it in a low-key courthouse kind of way. So we're going to talk to a financial advisor about these things and make a decision about it in the next month. So yeah, we're on hold here and I'm surprised about how much that limbo BUGS THE CRAP OUT OF ME.
For someone who never thought she'd get married and would rather spend money on our future theoretical bathroom remodel than any wedding reception or big meringue-like dress the idea that I don't know yet if this man I love will be my husband makes me looney-tunes on a daily basis. And my reason for that is that I am not good (I am the opposite of "not good" - I'm fucking terrible) at ambiguous situations. But I'm living with it because I know when it will end and I know why we're doing this. If some CPA or CFP says "You'd be insane to get married because your taxes will be like whoa" then I'm fine with that outcome because it will be an outcome.
So I think you need to be clear to yourself about why you really really want to me married. It is something about marriage? Or is it the limbo? And if it's the limbo then maybe the conversation to have is about a formal domestic partnership or some legal arrangements. If you proposed that to your boyfriend as a "I need to settle these things for my legal peace of mind?" maybe he would see more where you're coming from. And if it's really that you want to be married because, say, you want society to acknowledge that your relationship is real - which is fine! - then understand that and be specific in saying that in your conversations.
posted by marylynn at 12:42 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
For someone who never thought she'd get married and would rather spend money on our future theoretical bathroom remodel than any wedding reception or big meringue-like dress the idea that I don't know yet if this man I love will be my husband makes me looney-tunes on a daily basis. And my reason for that is that I am not good (I am the opposite of "not good" - I'm fucking terrible) at ambiguous situations. But I'm living with it because I know when it will end and I know why we're doing this. If some CPA or CFP says "You'd be insane to get married because your taxes will be like whoa" then I'm fine with that outcome because it will be an outcome.
So I think you need to be clear to yourself about why you really really want to me married. It is something about marriage? Or is it the limbo? And if it's the limbo then maybe the conversation to have is about a formal domestic partnership or some legal arrangements. If you proposed that to your boyfriend as a "I need to settle these things for my legal peace of mind?" maybe he would see more where you're coming from. And if it's really that you want to be married because, say, you want society to acknowledge that your relationship is real - which is fine! - then understand that and be specific in saying that in your conversations.
posted by marylynn at 12:42 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I really HATE the trope of MARRIAGE AND BABY HUNGRY WOMEN, AREN'T THEY PITIFUL, AMIRITE.
This. And the folks in the peanut gallery who will insist that you really just want to get a shiny ring and wear a pretty white dress, and if you would leave him for not marrying you then you're shallow and horrible and value a piece of paper more than the human being in front of you, and it doesn't even matter to you who you marry because you just want a husband because you're a sheep who does whatever societal norms dictate... screw all of those people. Marriage may not mean a thing to them, but it means something profound to you and there's nothing wrong with that.
There is a legal definition of marriage and a personal meaning. That personal meaning is entirely yours to define, and you don't need to listen to anybody who would disparage you for wanting marriage because of how they've chosen to define it.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:17 PM on July 4, 2013 [23 favorites]
This. And the folks in the peanut gallery who will insist that you really just want to get a shiny ring and wear a pretty white dress, and if you would leave him for not marrying you then you're shallow and horrible and value a piece of paper more than the human being in front of you, and it doesn't even matter to you who you marry because you just want a husband because you're a sheep who does whatever societal norms dictate... screw all of those people. Marriage may not mean a thing to them, but it means something profound to you and there's nothing wrong with that.
There is a legal definition of marriage and a personal meaning. That personal meaning is entirely yours to define, and you don't need to listen to anybody who would disparage you for wanting marriage because of how they've chosen to define it.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:17 PM on July 4, 2013 [23 favorites]
Propose to him. I really like what PBWK said.
My partner suggested that we get married. Her brother had just died too young, and we had been living in sin for a few years, and she felt the spur of mortality. I thought about it for a week and agreed. Some friends of ours found out and asked if they could be there at the ceremony, and we all met on the beach with the Reverend Nancy.
Has it really been twenty-seven years?
posted by the Real Dan at 1:53 PM on July 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
My partner suggested that we get married. Her brother had just died too young, and we had been living in sin for a few years, and she felt the spur of mortality. I thought about it for a week and agreed. Some friends of ours found out and asked if they could be there at the ceremony, and we all met on the beach with the Reverend Nancy.
Has it really been twenty-seven years?
posted by the Real Dan at 1:53 PM on July 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Maybe I can provide a voice from the other side. I am male, upper twenties. I have a fabulous girlfriend with whom I have lived for about three years in a locale with strong common-law-type protections (Quebec) and I am perfectly comfortable saying that I may be with her forever. In situations where it is convenient to us, we already refer to each other as husband and wife, or "partner" (hospitals, governments, customer service). Around our friends we never use those appellations.
She wants to get married someday and I am against it for several reasons. One is that I am supposed to marry someone of my religion and she is not of that religion. Another is that I think that the proof is in the pudding and that the proverbial sheet of paper is more likely to cause us to take each other for granted and therefore detract from our relationship than it is to enrich it.
I do not know if we will eventually get married. I guess so? 65% probability? Whatever. We have discussed getting married and agreed that we are comfortable doing it if necessary for legal reasons -- but that those reasons didn't exist at this moment. So not right now. Maybe later.
OP, It creeps me out to read this thread and see so many people resorting to ultimatums and cajoling in the context of a decision which is so emotionally fraught. I think that a lot of the people here who are telling you to break up are missing the fact that you said that your relationship is wonderful. I assume that part of the wonderfulness comes from good communication. If this is an issue that really bothers you, I urge you to communicate this clearly to your partner and try to get his view as explicitly as possible. As a couple, you have to be able to deal with difficult questions, questions which may lead to some discord between the two of you.
But please don't browbeat him. Relationships are founded on compassion, communication, good will, and mutual compromise. Think of it from his point of view -- if marriage is supposed to be the rest of your lives, would you want to be coerced into it?
Meanwhile, please keep a good grasp on the fact that for all intents and purposes, life after your marriage is likely to be exactly the same as life before it, except with a ring on. Make sure your expectations are safely tamped down.
posted by cinoyter at 2:36 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
She wants to get married someday and I am against it for several reasons. One is that I am supposed to marry someone of my religion and she is not of that religion. Another is that I think that the proof is in the pudding and that the proverbial sheet of paper is more likely to cause us to take each other for granted and therefore detract from our relationship than it is to enrich it.
I do not know if we will eventually get married. I guess so? 65% probability? Whatever. We have discussed getting married and agreed that we are comfortable doing it if necessary for legal reasons -- but that those reasons didn't exist at this moment. So not right now. Maybe later.
OP, It creeps me out to read this thread and see so many people resorting to ultimatums and cajoling in the context of a decision which is so emotionally fraught. I think that a lot of the people here who are telling you to break up are missing the fact that you said that your relationship is wonderful. I assume that part of the wonderfulness comes from good communication. If this is an issue that really bothers you, I urge you to communicate this clearly to your partner and try to get his view as explicitly as possible. As a couple, you have to be able to deal with difficult questions, questions which may lead to some discord between the two of you.
But please don't browbeat him. Relationships are founded on compassion, communication, good will, and mutual compromise. Think of it from his point of view -- if marriage is supposed to be the rest of your lives, would you want to be coerced into it?
Meanwhile, please keep a good grasp on the fact that for all intents and purposes, life after your marriage is likely to be exactly the same as life before it, except with a ring on. Make sure your expectations are safely tamped down.
posted by cinoyter at 2:36 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I recently ended my relationship with my (male) partner of 6+ years because he wanted marriage and children and I (female) did not. There was never an official proposal; instead, we had a generally positive relationship and went many years without questioning our trajectory as we progressed through the usual stages up to living together and vacations with extended family.
When he began casually suggesting that we get married 'for tax purposes' or how awesome it would be for us to have a kid so his niece would have someone to play with, the reality of the public/legal affirmation discussed above really emphasized to me that while I was immensely pleased with the low-stress and happy relationship we'd had until that point, marriage and kids - for both practical and general family-building reasons - just wasn't something I was ready for or interested in. It was nothing so harsh as me not loving him enough or not wanting the commitment (I'd been committed to him happily until the casual non-proposals with no issues).
This is entirely specific to my experience, of course, but I wonder if your boyfriend perhaps is having some of the same doubts I did. I also wonder if he had been more direct sooner, instead of 'dropping hints' or whatever, if I would have made the same decision. There will always be benefits to improving communication with your partner, and if you're crying over feeling like you don't have that commitment after all this time while still living together and waiting, improving communication is probably a better way to stop crying than an immediate engagement.
posted by super extra at 2:42 PM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
When he began casually suggesting that we get married 'for tax purposes' or how awesome it would be for us to have a kid so his niece would have someone to play with, the reality of the public/legal affirmation discussed above really emphasized to me that while I was immensely pleased with the low-stress and happy relationship we'd had until that point, marriage and kids - for both practical and general family-building reasons - just wasn't something I was ready for or interested in. It was nothing so harsh as me not loving him enough or not wanting the commitment (I'd been committed to him happily until the casual non-proposals with no issues).
This is entirely specific to my experience, of course, but I wonder if your boyfriend perhaps is having some of the same doubts I did. I also wonder if he had been more direct sooner, instead of 'dropping hints' or whatever, if I would have made the same decision. There will always be benefits to improving communication with your partner, and if you're crying over feeling like you don't have that commitment after all this time while still living together and waiting, improving communication is probably a better way to stop crying than an immediate engagement.
posted by super extra at 2:42 PM on July 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
You should get it clear in your own mind whether this is a deal breaker or not. Are you willing to stay with this guy indefinitely if he never proposes?
If so, carry on and cope as best you can. He may never ask you. After 5 years . . . maybe, but I'm not crazy about your odds.
If it is a deal breaker, let him know it's time to make up his mind one way or the other. You can do this in an upbeat way, along the lines of Ruthless Bunny's script, except you're letting him know he needs to make a damn decision and propose, or don't.
Put a deadline on it (some months out, end of the year would be OK). Make sure he knows you mean it, and then, as much as possible, give him room to make up his mind, no reminders or hints. The idea is to wake him up and get him to do what he's meant to do all along. If he doesn't propose, he really doesn't want to marry you. You have to move on then, no extensions.
If there's a next time (I hope not), five years is way too long. If you want to get married, let the guy know he needs to make up his mind within a couple years.
posted by mattu at 3:16 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
If so, carry on and cope as best you can. He may never ask you. After 5 years . . . maybe, but I'm not crazy about your odds.
If it is a deal breaker, let him know it's time to make up his mind one way or the other. You can do this in an upbeat way, along the lines of Ruthless Bunny's script, except you're letting him know he needs to make a damn decision and propose, or don't.
Put a deadline on it (some months out, end of the year would be OK). Make sure he knows you mean it, and then, as much as possible, give him room to make up his mind, no reminders or hints. The idea is to wake him up and get him to do what he's meant to do all along. If he doesn't propose, he really doesn't want to marry you. You have to move on then, no extensions.
If there's a next time (I hope not), five years is way too long. If you want to get married, let the guy know he needs to make up his mind within a couple years.
posted by mattu at 3:16 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Is marriage THAT important?
People have been pointing out that it's important to you. I would like to add that it's important to him as well. Otherwise, why would he make a big deal over postponing it indefinitely?
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:18 PM on July 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
People have been pointing out that it's important to you. I would like to add that it's important to him as well. Otherwise, why would he make a big deal over postponing it indefinitely?
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:18 PM on July 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
OP, It creeps me out to read this thread and see so many people resorting to ultimatums and cajoling...if marriage is supposed to be the rest of your lives, would you want to be coerced into it?
Marriage is imbued with enormous emotional and legal significance. It's a valid need. It's a legitimate dealbreaker. OP, you're not a bad person if you walk away from someone who can't fulfill this need. You're not a bad person for expressing how important marriage is to you, to the man you want to marry. If you get emotional about it and cry, I believe you that this is honestly how the topic makes you feel. You're not being manipulative. You're not cajoling or coercing (jeez, what an ugly way to characterize your desire to be emotionally and legally committed to your partner).
I have several friends who are happily coupled up with no intentions to make it official in the eyes of god or the law or whoever, and I'm happy for them. I have nothing against folks who view marriage as a negative, as long as they're honest about this with their partners, and they don't slag others for wanting marriage.
If your boyfriend feels that marriage is not for him, he's entitled to that... but it doesn't mean he's entitled to keep putting off the decision because things are working just fine for him the way they are, and he wants to avoid having difficult discussions and making tough choices. If he truly loves you, he will want to understand how you feel and why. He will want what's best for you and for you to be happy, even if what's best for you isn't him.
How is it the right for a woman to make choices unhindered by stereotypes and conventional norms is so protected and validated, and yet this mans right to choose his own path in regard to marriage results in repeated suggestions of ultimatums and him being labelled an arsehole?
Don't do this. Nobody has called him an arsehole. The point is that both parties should be clear on whether or not they want to be married. If one party never wants to marry, the fair and kind thing for that party to do is tell the other party that it's not on the table, never will be, and allow the other party to find happiness with someone else. Stringing someone along with promises of "someday," when they've known for years that marriage is deeply important to the other party, is an unfair and unkind thing to do. If this issue is a dealbreaker for OP, and being clear and honest about that is an ultimatum, then yup... it's an ultimatum.
posted by keep it under cover at 5:36 PM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]
Marriage is imbued with enormous emotional and legal significance. It's a valid need. It's a legitimate dealbreaker. OP, you're not a bad person if you walk away from someone who can't fulfill this need. You're not a bad person for expressing how important marriage is to you, to the man you want to marry. If you get emotional about it and cry, I believe you that this is honestly how the topic makes you feel. You're not being manipulative. You're not cajoling or coercing (jeez, what an ugly way to characterize your desire to be emotionally and legally committed to your partner).
I have several friends who are happily coupled up with no intentions to make it official in the eyes of god or the law or whoever, and I'm happy for them. I have nothing against folks who view marriage as a negative, as long as they're honest about this with their partners, and they don't slag others for wanting marriage.
If your boyfriend feels that marriage is not for him, he's entitled to that... but it doesn't mean he's entitled to keep putting off the decision because things are working just fine for him the way they are, and he wants to avoid having difficult discussions and making tough choices. If he truly loves you, he will want to understand how you feel and why. He will want what's best for you and for you to be happy, even if what's best for you isn't him.
How is it the right for a woman to make choices unhindered by stereotypes and conventional norms is so protected and validated, and yet this mans right to choose his own path in regard to marriage results in repeated suggestions of ultimatums and him being labelled an arsehole?
Don't do this. Nobody has called him an arsehole. The point is that both parties should be clear on whether or not they want to be married. If one party never wants to marry, the fair and kind thing for that party to do is tell the other party that it's not on the table, never will be, and allow the other party to find happiness with someone else. Stringing someone along with promises of "someday," when they've known for years that marriage is deeply important to the other party, is an unfair and unkind thing to do. If this issue is a dealbreaker for OP, and being clear and honest about that is an ultimatum, then yup... it's an ultimatum.
posted by keep it under cover at 5:36 PM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]
If you want to be married to him and he isn't asking, you should ask him. If he says no, it's good news because it means you now know why he hadn't already asked (...because he wasn't ever going to...) in which case, you have a definitive answer and can figure out what to do next: end the relationship and move on, or accept the status quo as is. Or, if he says yes, start planning for a wedding, and yay, etc.
Good luck!
posted by 2oh1 at 5:44 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Good luck!
posted by 2oh1 at 5:44 PM on July 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
There is a great deal of good advice (and some really bad, too) above, but I did want to emphasize that there is absolutely no reason why you should torture yourself about the reasons WHY you want to be married. If that's what you want, that is ok. You are allowed to want what you want, and not to have to twist yourself into a logic pretzel to convince yourself that you don't.
You need to sit down with your boyfriend, and clearly spell out your wants, with clear, reasonable parameters. And listen to him.
Good luck! And hugs.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:27 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
You need to sit down with your boyfriend, and clearly spell out your wants, with clear, reasonable parameters. And listen to him.
Good luck! And hugs.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 6:27 PM on July 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you want to be married to him and he isn't asking, you should ask him.
I know OP has already said she isn't planning to go this route, but I have to say I think it would unwise to start plotting an elaborate proposal. He's already told her he isn't sure, or isn't ready. I would really really advise against a guy proposing to his girlfriend if she was telling him she wasn't ready for marriage. Marriage needs to be a mutual decision; the proposal is ceremonial.
posted by Asparagus at 6:34 PM on July 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
I know OP has already said she isn't planning to go this route, but I have to say I think it would unwise to start plotting an elaborate proposal. He's already told her he isn't sure, or isn't ready. I would really really advise against a guy proposing to his girlfriend if she was telling him she wasn't ready for marriage. Marriage needs to be a mutual decision; the proposal is ceremonial.
posted by Asparagus at 6:34 PM on July 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
I rarely feel as culturally alien on MeFi as when marriage is up for discussion. Here in Sweden, the general attitudes to marriage are so vastly different from the ones expressed in this thread, and five years wouldn't be considered a long time at all. It would be interesting to know which country you moved to and where your boyfriend comes from.
posted by springload at 7:37 PM on July 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by springload at 7:37 PM on July 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I equate legal marriage with the mutual understanding of commitment. I understand that feeling of being in limbo, I was there myself. But then in the relationship I am in now, the SO started talking about doing stuff together well into the future, and putting me in his will. That was about as committed a message as it got for me. I don't need all the marriage guff and never really wanted to do it in the past, but recently we did decide to get married, and I like the idea now. But it's also just a thing to do. What was important was the assurance that we were both going to stick by each other, and that we weren't in a situation where we were treading water in the relationship (which we were for a while).
Some people find the idea of marriage to be overwhelming or frightening. Sometimes the symbol of marriage seems bigger than what is actually happening. I would say that all you need is an assurance that you are committed to each other for the long term. Maybe it's easier to get that without bringing up marriage. It's that feeling of being secure that we yearn for isn't it?
FWIW I also had a bit of a cry at my SO way back when. It wasn't about marriage proposals though, just about defining what it was we were doing (see above re: commitment). It ain't no thang, what you're feeling is valid.
posted by mooza at 5:41 AM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Some people find the idea of marriage to be overwhelming or frightening. Sometimes the symbol of marriage seems bigger than what is actually happening. I would say that all you need is an assurance that you are committed to each other for the long term. Maybe it's easier to get that without bringing up marriage. It's that feeling of being secure that we yearn for isn't it?
FWIW I also had a bit of a cry at my SO way back when. It wasn't about marriage proposals though, just about defining what it was we were doing (see above re: commitment). It ain't no thang, what you're feeling is valid.
posted by mooza at 5:41 AM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
A few things here:
I agree with other posters that when you meet someone you want to be with forever, you will want to get married - and if your partner doesn't want to get married to you, you should cut bait and run.
However, you should not tie that want-to-get-married to has-he-proposed-to-me.
My husband knew he wanted to marry me from the first three months we were dating. He came down and told his brother in law with tears in his eyes that he had met the woman he wanted to marry. He knew.
At the same time, he did not bother telling me this for years, until we were nearly married. AND he deliberately delayed the proposal, even while we were living with each other, and I was mentally screaming "why isn't he asking me I want him to ask me why?"
In his case, it was a combination of things, but mostly, he wanted people to take our marriage seriously, which in his mind, included so many years dating, so many years living together, so many years engaged, etc. Also, he wanted to make sure I would say yes when he proposed - the idea of me maybe saying no was a terrifying one.
I think that sometimes men simply do not understand how big a deal this is for women - and in part, that's because we are trying to fight the stereotypes of our past, and do this "no big deal, I'm totes enlightened, marriage is whatever, you know?" kind of thing. But it is okay for marriage to be a big deal. Being really, really clear with your feelings will help you know if your boyfriend is someone who wants to marry you but wants it to be perfect, or doesn't want to marry you at all.
*Additionally: I think you need to pay attention to the fact that his parents have been married for 50 years and consider how that is impacting him. That's a LOT of pressure. A LOT of pressure. He probably considers that is how marriages need to be, which means he's potentially evaluating your marriage not in terms of "do I want to be with her forever" but "are we likely to be together for at least fifty years".
posted by corb at 6:46 AM on July 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
I agree with other posters that when you meet someone you want to be with forever, you will want to get married - and if your partner doesn't want to get married to you, you should cut bait and run.
However, you should not tie that want-to-get-married to has-he-proposed-to-me.
My husband knew he wanted to marry me from the first three months we were dating. He came down and told his brother in law with tears in his eyes that he had met the woman he wanted to marry. He knew.
At the same time, he did not bother telling me this for years, until we were nearly married. AND he deliberately delayed the proposal, even while we were living with each other, and I was mentally screaming "why isn't he asking me I want him to ask me why?"
In his case, it was a combination of things, but mostly, he wanted people to take our marriage seriously, which in his mind, included so many years dating, so many years living together, so many years engaged, etc. Also, he wanted to make sure I would say yes when he proposed - the idea of me maybe saying no was a terrifying one.
I think that sometimes men simply do not understand how big a deal this is for women - and in part, that's because we are trying to fight the stereotypes of our past, and do this "no big deal, I'm totes enlightened, marriage is whatever, you know?" kind of thing. But it is okay for marriage to be a big deal. Being really, really clear with your feelings will help you know if your boyfriend is someone who wants to marry you but wants it to be perfect, or doesn't want to marry you at all.
*Additionally: I think you need to pay attention to the fact that his parents have been married for 50 years and consider how that is impacting him. That's a LOT of pressure. A LOT of pressure. He probably considers that is how marriages need to be, which means he's potentially evaluating your marriage not in terms of "do I want to be with her forever" but "are we likely to be together for at least fifty years".
posted by corb at 6:46 AM on July 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
Do you have a mortgage together? Then you are legally bound. A couple I know have been together for ten years, and took the decision not to marry so they could eventually afford a place together, and the amount of time, effort and expense involved in making that happen makes them feel as commited as though they had got wed.
My SO and I don't have a mortgage (due to it basically being impossible to buy a house here) but we're both on a rental contract, and that was a decision we took seriously. We've been together for six years and don't have current plans for marriage or any idea yet if it's something we want, but we both want to be together for a long time.
posted by mippy at 7:11 AM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
My SO and I don't have a mortgage (due to it basically being impossible to buy a house here) but we're both on a rental contract, and that was a decision we took seriously. We've been together for six years and don't have current plans for marriage or any idea yet if it's something we want, but we both want to be together for a long time.
posted by mippy at 7:11 AM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks again to everyone for their input.
Having slept on it, here's what I have learnt about myself over the last 24 hours:
* I'm not bothered about getting married for the sake of getting married, I want to spend the rest of my life with my wonderful boyfriend, because I love him, not because I want a fancy ring.
* I definitely need to have this conversation with him again and be much more specific about deadlines. Simply asking him "Are you ever going to marry me?" and him replying "Yes!!!" is not good enough!
* I won't be dumping him over this. Our relationship is 95% fantastic and I was actually stunned that lots of people had suggested I break up with him over this! In a weird way though, I'm glad people put this option to me - because it REALLY made me realise the following:
*I'd rather be with him, in a happily un-married relationship, than drive myself crazy over a wedding I'm not sure I really even want.
I loved everyone's anecdotes and tales of "hope"....
And if it matters, I moved from England to Canada.
Thanks again for helping me put everything into perspective - which was my ultimate goal!
posted by JenThePro at 7:42 AM on July 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
Having slept on it, here's what I have learnt about myself over the last 24 hours:
* I'm not bothered about getting married for the sake of getting married, I want to spend the rest of my life with my wonderful boyfriend, because I love him, not because I want a fancy ring.
* I definitely need to have this conversation with him again and be much more specific about deadlines. Simply asking him "Are you ever going to marry me?" and him replying "Yes!!!" is not good enough!
* I won't be dumping him over this. Our relationship is 95% fantastic and I was actually stunned that lots of people had suggested I break up with him over this! In a weird way though, I'm glad people put this option to me - because it REALLY made me realise the following:
*I'd rather be with him, in a happily un-married relationship, than drive myself crazy over a wedding I'm not sure I really even want.
I loved everyone's anecdotes and tales of "hope"....
And if it matters, I moved from England to Canada.
Thanks again for helping me put everything into perspective - which was my ultimate goal!
posted by JenThePro at 7:42 AM on July 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
I know people who are happily unmarried, including people in 20+ year long relationships with kids. That said, if I wanted to marry someone, I would ask them to marry me - just like I asked my husband to marry me.
Take your boyfriend out for a romantic dinner, maybe walk by the lake, get down on one knee and pop the question. Having a ring already is optional. Then whether he says yes or not is up to him.
posted by jb at 8:48 AM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Take your boyfriend out for a romantic dinner, maybe walk by the lake, get down on one knee and pop the question. Having a ring already is optional. Then whether he says yes or not is up to him.
posted by jb at 8:48 AM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, please keep a good grasp on the fact that for all intents and purposes, life after your marriage is likely to be exactly the same as life before it, except with a ring on.
This may or may not be true. For sure, you'll be the same people in the same house with the same taste in TV and take-out. However, for many people it changes the way they think about the future -- not trivially, in that they won't date anybody else, but in the sense that long-term planning and/or long-term security (and definitely long-term teamwork) become possible. Suddenly you both really *own* both families with resulting pleasures and obligations; suddenly, you know that it's ok to develop different areas of expertise in keeping life running (she plans trips, he keeps track of the milk, whatever), because you're a team; suddenly you stop thinking in terms of "as long as this is still working" (assuming that you're going to go to great lengths, if needed, to keep it working); suddenly you can think naturally about what your retirement might look like, etc. Some people like that things are much as before; many find that the new frame changes everything, usually in ways they really appreciate.
Just another penny for the pond. (Also, another person for whom the party/ring were much less important than embarking on Making A Life Together.)
posted by acm at 9:09 AM on July 5, 2013 [12 favorites]
This may or may not be true. For sure, you'll be the same people in the same house with the same taste in TV and take-out. However, for many people it changes the way they think about the future -- not trivially, in that they won't date anybody else, but in the sense that long-term planning and/or long-term security (and definitely long-term teamwork) become possible. Suddenly you both really *own* both families with resulting pleasures and obligations; suddenly, you know that it's ok to develop different areas of expertise in keeping life running (she plans trips, he keeps track of the milk, whatever), because you're a team; suddenly you stop thinking in terms of "as long as this is still working" (assuming that you're going to go to great lengths, if needed, to keep it working); suddenly you can think naturally about what your retirement might look like, etc. Some people like that things are much as before; many find that the new frame changes everything, usually in ways they really appreciate.
Just another penny for the pond. (Also, another person for whom the party/ring were much less important than embarking on Making A Life Together.)
posted by acm at 9:09 AM on July 5, 2013 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Here's another thought: getting married doesn't mean that you have to have a crazy, expensive wedding. You can get married w/ a judge or whatever. People combine weddings and marriage, but they don't have to.
I think that many men fear weddings, the cost, and the drama, and in my experience, weddings bring out the worst in families. It brought my wife and I together out of reaction to how horrible our families were about our wedding.
Also, if decide to have a wedding, finance it yourself to a degree which is financially comfortable for you. People will remember the human interaction; in 50 years, will you really care if you had the best band ever, or whatever? The wedding-industrial complex is a crazy machine, and it can eat you up and spit you out if you let it. You can do fun and low key and it can be cool. The two favorite weddings I've been two have just been a bunch of people in the park w/ a friend officiating. Just really chill, low key events. People hanging out celebrating.
And also, also, don't bother getting a real diamond. They're not an investment; they're super expensive, and the whole industry is terrible. Get a nice CZ and you likely won't be able to tell the difference. Anyone who asks or says anything is just a jerk.
If my wife and I were to redo things, we'd do the above. We've been happily married for 13 years, but the stree of the wedding almost caused our divorce.
posted by reddot at 9:42 AM on July 5, 2013
I think that many men fear weddings, the cost, and the drama, and in my experience, weddings bring out the worst in families. It brought my wife and I together out of reaction to how horrible our families were about our wedding.
Also, if decide to have a wedding, finance it yourself to a degree which is financially comfortable for you. People will remember the human interaction; in 50 years, will you really care if you had the best band ever, or whatever? The wedding-industrial complex is a crazy machine, and it can eat you up and spit you out if you let it. You can do fun and low key and it can be cool. The two favorite weddings I've been two have just been a bunch of people in the park w/ a friend officiating. Just really chill, low key events. People hanging out celebrating.
And also, also, don't bother getting a real diamond. They're not an investment; they're super expensive, and the whole industry is terrible. Get a nice CZ and you likely won't be able to tell the difference. Anyone who asks or says anything is just a jerk.
If my wife and I were to redo things, we'd do the above. We've been happily married for 13 years, but the stree of the wedding almost caused our divorce.
posted by reddot at 9:42 AM on July 5, 2013
It matters to you. Find a time to talk to him, tell him it really matters to you, and that you want to understand what he's waiting for. Cinoyter's comment One is that I am supposed to marry someone of my religion and she is not of that religion. might apply - is there a cultural or religious issue? If there is, it's not going away by itself. In my experience, marriage is a contract - I promise to take care of you even if things are tough - and people are more likely to stay together in tough times if they're married. Your desire for marriage could be based on subtle things you've noticed that cause you concerns, or just your own preference for marriage, and it's really okay to want what you want. It's important for him to be clear with you about what he wants and if he can help you get what you want.
posted by theora55 at 9:56 AM on July 5, 2013
posted by theora55 at 9:56 AM on July 5, 2013
I won't be dumping him over this. Our relationship is 95% fantastic and I was actually stunned that lots of people had suggested I break up with him over this!
I don't want to assume anything about your relationship, but we all know people who were with an indecisive partner for years, no marriage, and then they break up, and then the indecisive partner marries someone else within a year. There are couples that are together for a long time and don't get married for reasons, and then there are couples who are together for a long time and don't get married because one or both of them has doubts about the relationship. I think there's a big difference.
Sometimes hesitation about getting married is hesitation about marriage, and sometimes it's hesitation about wanting to get married to that particular person. I think people are suggesting that you break up with him because, if he doesn't want to marry you and you want to marry him, that is a sad and kind of fucked up situation to stay in. Maybe he's scared. Maybe he doesn't think you're The One. We have no idea, but there are several possibilities.
In other words, does he not want to get married at all? Or does he not want to get married to you? Is he hesitant for XYZetcetc reasons, or is he stringing you along and not communicating his feelings because he doesn't want to rock the boat? Or a bunch of other possibilities?
We don't know. Good luck figuring this out.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 1:35 PM on July 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
I don't want to assume anything about your relationship, but we all know people who were with an indecisive partner for years, no marriage, and then they break up, and then the indecisive partner marries someone else within a year. There are couples that are together for a long time and don't get married for reasons, and then there are couples who are together for a long time and don't get married because one or both of them has doubts about the relationship. I think there's a big difference.
Sometimes hesitation about getting married is hesitation about marriage, and sometimes it's hesitation about wanting to get married to that particular person. I think people are suggesting that you break up with him because, if he doesn't want to marry you and you want to marry him, that is a sad and kind of fucked up situation to stay in. Maybe he's scared. Maybe he doesn't think you're The One. We have no idea, but there are several possibilities.
In other words, does he not want to get married at all? Or does he not want to get married to you? Is he hesitant for XYZetcetc reasons, or is he stringing you along and not communicating his feelings because he doesn't want to rock the boat? Or a bunch of other possibilities?
We don't know. Good luck figuring this out.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 1:35 PM on July 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
My fiance didn't propose marriage, but he did propose pre-marital counseling. I am a very practical, pragmatic person, so this was actually quite romantic.
Pre-marital counseling should not only be considered if you have problems. An objective counselor might be able to make points or ask questions that you haven't considered. While ours didn't have any major drama, we took the opportunity to discuss sticky points (finances, religion, etc.) that otherwise we hadn't discussed much. The counselor directed the flow of the conversations, and it loosened up my fiance a lot. Our appointments were monthly, far enough apart that we had plenty of time to discuss details on our own time.
After a couple of months, we'd worked out a timeline.
By the end of the year (2012), we proposed to each other.
Our wedding is scheduled for October of this year.
The counseling isn't over, though! We've got a new appointment set for next week. There are still no problems to discuss, but it's just helpful to check in with an objective third party. I expect we'll continue to go now and then after the wedding as we start to make a timeline for family planning (we're in our late 30s, so this isn't premature).
posted by aabbbiee at 1:41 PM on July 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Pre-marital counseling should not only be considered if you have problems. An objective counselor might be able to make points or ask questions that you haven't considered. While ours didn't have any major drama, we took the opportunity to discuss sticky points (finances, religion, etc.) that otherwise we hadn't discussed much. The counselor directed the flow of the conversations, and it loosened up my fiance a lot. Our appointments were monthly, far enough apart that we had plenty of time to discuss details on our own time.
After a couple of months, we'd worked out a timeline.
By the end of the year (2012), we proposed to each other.
Our wedding is scheduled for October of this year.
The counseling isn't over, though! We've got a new appointment set for next week. There are still no problems to discuss, but it's just helpful to check in with an objective third party. I expect we'll continue to go now and then after the wedding as we start to make a timeline for family planning (we're in our late 30s, so this isn't premature).
posted by aabbbiee at 1:41 PM on July 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Marriage comes with a boatload of rights that help a couple mediate their relationship to the rest of the world. This is why gays are pushing for the right to marry: because some of them comingle finances, live as a couple, etc and when one of them dies, the parents inherit the house and throw their child's lover out into the streets with little more than the clothes on their backs.
I read an article years ago about an unmarried couple having a baby together who did not wish to marry. The guy had started saying "My wife is pregnant" because that got "Congrats!" whereas "My gf is pregnant" got "Oh, sorry, dude." They were considering getting married because trying to arrange health insurance, co-ownership of a house and dozens of other things was turning into such a huge pain and most of those things would have been automatic or vastly streamlined by a marriage certificate.
If you aren't having any practical problems, it may not ever really matter. I know people who tied the knot to make it easier to arrange health insurance and other coverage. It sounds to me like none of those practical details have anything to do with why you posted this AskMe. It sounds to me like you feel a need for a romantic declaration of love, a grand gesture affirming your specialness. A marriage certificate won't necessarily solve that problem. I was married for 22.5 years and never got over feeling like I didn't matter to him as much as his previous girlfriend. Late In the marriage, I told him that one time and his unhelpful, dismissive reply was to the effect of "That's nuts!"
In contrast, I had another relationship during my divorce where he did not marry me and never once said he loved me but our goodbyes took 45 minutes and we always framed it as "The world is pulling me away from you or I would stay here with you, but I really must go now." And that relationship did a lot to heal my feelings of never having really been special to anyone.
I think you need something emotional and a marriage certificate and ring are probably just symbols of what you long for. Symbols usually are not enough. If he married you tomorrow, you might still feel stressed.
posted by Michele in California at 7:55 PM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I read an article years ago about an unmarried couple having a baby together who did not wish to marry. The guy had started saying "My wife is pregnant" because that got "Congrats!" whereas "My gf is pregnant" got "Oh, sorry, dude." They were considering getting married because trying to arrange health insurance, co-ownership of a house and dozens of other things was turning into such a huge pain and most of those things would have been automatic or vastly streamlined by a marriage certificate.
If you aren't having any practical problems, it may not ever really matter. I know people who tied the knot to make it easier to arrange health insurance and other coverage. It sounds to me like none of those practical details have anything to do with why you posted this AskMe. It sounds to me like you feel a need for a romantic declaration of love, a grand gesture affirming your specialness. A marriage certificate won't necessarily solve that problem. I was married for 22.5 years and never got over feeling like I didn't matter to him as much as his previous girlfriend. Late In the marriage, I told him that one time and his unhelpful, dismissive reply was to the effect of "That's nuts!"
In contrast, I had another relationship during my divorce where he did not marry me and never once said he loved me but our goodbyes took 45 minutes and we always framed it as "The world is pulling me away from you or I would stay here with you, but I really must go now." And that relationship did a lot to heal my feelings of never having really been special to anyone.
I think you need something emotional and a marriage certificate and ring are probably just symbols of what you long for. Symbols usually are not enough. If he married you tomorrow, you might still feel stressed.
posted by Michele in California at 7:55 PM on July 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Marriage is not a thing someone else bestows on you. It is not up to your boyfriend to withhold that, and expect you to hand around on the off chance he might decide to give it to you.
This is something you work toward together, ideally.
He could be very much in love with you and very happy with the status quo, and feel no need to even think about getting married. It doesn't make him a bad person any more than wanting that for yourself makes YOU a bad person.
I am sure he does not think he's being cruel by promising that he will someday propose marriage to you, but it is a kind of cruelty. You are 31, which is young, but you have the right to be thinking about how you want your life to look—if you want to have children, if you want to buy a home, all of that.
You are within your rights to have a very frank conversation with your boyfriend. I would probably take the tears/cocktails out of it as this may be hurting your case a bit (though I certainly understand it). Good luck to you!
posted by pennyfarthing at 7:03 PM on July 6, 2013
This is something you work toward together, ideally.
He could be very much in love with you and very happy with the status quo, and feel no need to even think about getting married. It doesn't make him a bad person any more than wanting that for yourself makes YOU a bad person.
I am sure he does not think he's being cruel by promising that he will someday propose marriage to you, but it is a kind of cruelty. You are 31, which is young, but you have the right to be thinking about how you want your life to look—if you want to have children, if you want to buy a home, all of that.
You are within your rights to have a very frank conversation with your boyfriend. I would probably take the tears/cocktails out of it as this may be hurting your case a bit (though I certainly understand it). Good luck to you!
posted by pennyfarthing at 7:03 PM on July 6, 2013
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1. continue waiting for him to ask
2. tell him, "it's great that we're on the same page about this. I need you to give me some idea of when you'd like to make this happen because it's causing me hella angst. Let's talk timelines." If he still can't give you any clearer indication of when he sees this happening, you must decide whether you want to go back to doing 1., or if you want to bounce.
posted by ladybird at 9:36 AM on July 4, 2013 [18 favorites]