Damn. This question again. But still confused.
May 23, 2013 3:12 PM Subscribe
My partner, who is good for me in so many ways, and has made my life incredibly better, is really self-centered in some ways. He is non-neurotypical. It's confusing. What should I do?
I know I'll probably get dinged a lot for this question, as it's similar to others I've asked, but I just don't know what to do and think maybe I'm not phrasing the question correctly. Every few months this comes up and I think about breaking up, but then I realize how wonderful he is and try to find another solution. Maybe I'm just super critical and my standards are too high?
My partner has been really good for me. I'm happier, more productive, more relaxed, and more joyful because of his influence. I feel loved for the first time in my life. He takes good care of me. He shows me how much he loves me all the time, by telling me, protecting me physically (getting me a bike helmet, for example), encouraging me, and more. I've grown a lot personally. I'm calmer in general (that's a real issue for me). He is committed to me, has shared his family (who are fantastic) with me, tells me how wonderful I am every day, etc. He also has some rare personal traits that I have longed for for a very long time and never thought I'd find again. I'm okay being single, but I am much, much happier with him. I'm not depressed, probably for the first time in my life. I feel accepted, cared for, stable. (See this comment here.)
But there are problems that I keep wrestling with, and don't know how to address. Maybe I should ask separate questions about how to deal with each of these things? Maybe they are all separate things? I don't know. They seem to me to be related.
He's very... self centered. I'll give some very concrete examples to see if this helps. It's a bit hard to pin down. For example:
- He has to have everything right away, when he needs it, or he flips out and gets angry and frustrated and blame-y. If he's hungry, we have to go eat right then. If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. If he wants to see me, he gets really distressed if I have other plans. It's very emotionally demanding to be around him. It's draining.
- If he doesn't want to do something, we just... never (or extremely rarely) do it. I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. If he likes a set of people, he will hang out with them. If he doesn't, he simply won't ever see them, even if they are my friends. I like girlier movies than he does and we have watched a romantic comedy exactly twice although I watch his sci-fi stuff every week or so. He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it.
- He has a lot of trouble listening. He has to say what's on his mind, no matter how long and rambly, until it's been said. He can't give others the same courtesy as he thinks he knows what they are saying before they say it and then has to say his response. If he sets his mind to listen, he is a good listener. But it can't be sprung on him, in the middle of a conversation. He needs a lot of warm up to hear other people.
- When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. He has to be right. He explains that it was because he was (tired, hungry, feeling sick, depressed, etc.) instead of just saying, "Yeah, I should have been less defensive." This means that arguments can take an hour that could just take 5 minutes. Finally, at the end, he says, kind of sheepishly, "I guess that was kind of immature." He's open to reading more about the subject, and to counseling. He says he'd be happy to learn some techniques to be better at this.
- We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. He couldn't hang out with him and make small talk and just be nice. He was incredibly brusque and wound up staying in his room most of the time. The friend doesn't like him (understandably), and it's strained my relationship with the friend.
He's not Asperger-ish at all. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and learning disabilities. I've been reading quite a bit on these subjects and I know that some of these difficulties are typical.
I know people are going to tell me to DTMFA. I know this sounds really bad. But... I keep thinking about it, and my life is just BETTER with him in it. I am genuinely happier. I feel safe and secure in ways I never thought possible. I have become more feminist. I feel more empowered. I do better work. I am less stressed out. Also, I love him (of course).
So my question:
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better?
- He's open to learning about how to improve. I've shared some resources with him before and he read and discussed them with me. He's made some changes to his diet and exercise and that has helped him feel better. If you're like him (or used to be), what has helped you?
- Anything else that might help!
I know I'll probably get dinged a lot for this question, as it's similar to others I've asked, but I just don't know what to do and think maybe I'm not phrasing the question correctly. Every few months this comes up and I think about breaking up, but then I realize how wonderful he is and try to find another solution. Maybe I'm just super critical and my standards are too high?
My partner has been really good for me. I'm happier, more productive, more relaxed, and more joyful because of his influence. I feel loved for the first time in my life. He takes good care of me. He shows me how much he loves me all the time, by telling me, protecting me physically (getting me a bike helmet, for example), encouraging me, and more. I've grown a lot personally. I'm calmer in general (that's a real issue for me). He is committed to me, has shared his family (who are fantastic) with me, tells me how wonderful I am every day, etc. He also has some rare personal traits that I have longed for for a very long time and never thought I'd find again. I'm okay being single, but I am much, much happier with him. I'm not depressed, probably for the first time in my life. I feel accepted, cared for, stable. (See this comment here.)
But there are problems that I keep wrestling with, and don't know how to address. Maybe I should ask separate questions about how to deal with each of these things? Maybe they are all separate things? I don't know. They seem to me to be related.
He's very... self centered. I'll give some very concrete examples to see if this helps. It's a bit hard to pin down. For example:
- He has to have everything right away, when he needs it, or he flips out and gets angry and frustrated and blame-y. If he's hungry, we have to go eat right then. If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. If he wants to see me, he gets really distressed if I have other plans. It's very emotionally demanding to be around him. It's draining.
- If he doesn't want to do something, we just... never (or extremely rarely) do it. I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. If he likes a set of people, he will hang out with them. If he doesn't, he simply won't ever see them, even if they are my friends. I like girlier movies than he does and we have watched a romantic comedy exactly twice although I watch his sci-fi stuff every week or so. He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it.
- He has a lot of trouble listening. He has to say what's on his mind, no matter how long and rambly, until it's been said. He can't give others the same courtesy as he thinks he knows what they are saying before they say it and then has to say his response. If he sets his mind to listen, he is a good listener. But it can't be sprung on him, in the middle of a conversation. He needs a lot of warm up to hear other people.
- When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. He has to be right. He explains that it was because he was (tired, hungry, feeling sick, depressed, etc.) instead of just saying, "Yeah, I should have been less defensive." This means that arguments can take an hour that could just take 5 minutes. Finally, at the end, he says, kind of sheepishly, "I guess that was kind of immature." He's open to reading more about the subject, and to counseling. He says he'd be happy to learn some techniques to be better at this.
- We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. He couldn't hang out with him and make small talk and just be nice. He was incredibly brusque and wound up staying in his room most of the time. The friend doesn't like him (understandably), and it's strained my relationship with the friend.
He's not Asperger-ish at all. He has been diagnosed with ADHD and learning disabilities. I've been reading quite a bit on these subjects and I know that some of these difficulties are typical.
I know people are going to tell me to DTMFA. I know this sounds really bad. But... I keep thinking about it, and my life is just BETTER with him in it. I am genuinely happier. I feel safe and secure in ways I never thought possible. I have become more feminist. I feel more empowered. I do better work. I am less stressed out. Also, I love him (of course).
So my question:
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better?
- He's open to learning about how to improve. I've shared some resources with him before and he read and discussed them with me. He's made some changes to his diet and exercise and that has helped him feel better. If you're like him (or used to be), what has helped you?
- Anything else that might help!
Finally, at the end, he says, kind of sheepishly, "I guess that was kind of immature." He's open to reading more about the subject, and to counseling. He says he'd be happy to learn some techniques to be better at this.
Does he actually believe this, or is he just saying it? Because it sounds like he acts like an 8-year-old a lot of the time, and he needs to, y'know, not. You don't tell us if he's actually reading up (and more importantly, discussing it in a calm, rational manner with you) or been in any counseling sessions, and if he hasn't then he's just telling you what you want to hear.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:25 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
Does he actually believe this, or is he just saying it? Because it sounds like he acts like an 8-year-old a lot of the time, and he needs to, y'know, not. You don't tell us if he's actually reading up (and more importantly, discussing it in a calm, rational manner with you) or been in any counseling sessions, and if he hasn't then he's just telling you what you want to hear.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:25 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
You're not going to get dinged, and I apologize for coming off as harsh, but it's clear that you've posted a variation of this question 4 or 5 times now for almost a year and haven't taken the advice to break up with this person and move on.
People here have advised you to move on. For whatever reason, you haven't.
I suggest that you pose this question to a therapist because you're not accepting the advice you keep asking for here.
posted by kinetic at 3:32 PM on May 23, 2013 [43 favorites]
People here have advised you to move on. For whatever reason, you haven't.
I suggest that you pose this question to a therapist because you're not accepting the advice you keep asking for here.
posted by kinetic at 3:32 PM on May 23, 2013 [43 favorites]
It sounds like, despite what you said, you like what he brings to the table in terms of a relationship. You like the companionship, and the feeling of "he really likes/loves me" and as such, are willing to diminish the significance of his shortcomings.
There are other people in this world who would offer you what you like, without the blatant self-centered egotistical lifestyle this gentleman seems to enjoy.
If you don't want to to call it quits, your only other real option is to talk to him about what bothers you. If you don't talk to him about it, it most likely will never change. If you do talk to him, it MIGHT change, and it might not. If you're OK with this, you have your answer. If you're not.. you have your answer.
Best of luck.
posted by irishcoffee at 3:33 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
There are other people in this world who would offer you what you like, without the blatant self-centered egotistical lifestyle this gentleman seems to enjoy.
If you don't want to to call it quits, your only other real option is to talk to him about what bothers you. If you don't talk to him about it, it most likely will never change. If you do talk to him, it MIGHT change, and it might not. If you're OK with this, you have your answer. If you're not.. you have your answer.
Best of luck.
posted by irishcoffee at 3:33 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
" If he's hungry, we have to go eat right then."
^ I can't speak to your friend's other annoying traits, but this could be hypoglycemia talking. Cut him some slack on this one, and show him to the nearest protein.
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:34 PM on May 23, 2013 [17 favorites]
^ I can't speak to your friend's other annoying traits, but this could be hypoglycemia talking. Cut him some slack on this one, and show him to the nearest protein.
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:34 PM on May 23, 2013 [17 favorites]
Defensiveness, impatience, selfishness...these are learned behaviours that take work (on his part) to get through and overcome (and patience from you). If your partner has a learning disability, it might take him longer to undo. Are you willing to wait for him to work on these things? What you need to do is to draw a line in the sand. Chalk up how long you are willing to put up with his shananigans against "my partner is good to me in so many ways". If you feel he is worth the work, then you have your answer.
posted by MeatheadBrokeMyChair at 3:35 PM on May 23, 2013
posted by MeatheadBrokeMyChair at 3:35 PM on May 23, 2013
You can't expect change overnight and you have to decide what you can deal with time-wise and also change-wise.
Sounds like he's got issues, but I suspect you do too. Talk to yourself or go to therapy and see what you are willing to deal with and for how long. Then tell him and then stick to it. It's up to him to change at that point and if he doesn't then move it along. But be aware that you are probably not completely innocent in all this either (and no, I'm not blaming you for anything, but it is realistic to suspect this) and that if you tell him what's bothering you, then be aware that he likely has similar things to say about you and you need to be willing to hear that as well. Takes two to tango, etc. (for reference, I'm super defensive with my husband and we had a loooong talk about it the other day and I decided that 90% is me, but 10% is how he approaches me. We discussed and then moved forward with the intention of changing those things in each of us).
Echoing MeatheadBrokeMyChair: if he's worth the work and the time, then there's your answer.
posted by mrfuga0 at 3:43 PM on May 23, 2013
Sounds like he's got issues, but I suspect you do too. Talk to yourself or go to therapy and see what you are willing to deal with and for how long. Then tell him and then stick to it. It's up to him to change at that point and if he doesn't then move it along. But be aware that you are probably not completely innocent in all this either (and no, I'm not blaming you for anything, but it is realistic to suspect this) and that if you tell him what's bothering you, then be aware that he likely has similar things to say about you and you need to be willing to hear that as well. Takes two to tango, etc. (for reference, I'm super defensive with my husband and we had a loooong talk about it the other day and I decided that 90% is me, but 10% is how he approaches me. We discussed and then moved forward with the intention of changing those things in each of us).
Echoing MeatheadBrokeMyChair: if he's worth the work and the time, then there's your answer.
posted by mrfuga0 at 3:43 PM on May 23, 2013
'but this could be hypoglycemia talking"--if he has it, let him tell you; if he is unsure, suggest he get checked for it.
posted by Postroad at 3:45 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 3:45 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
He is still a little boy; this is common.
Modern society gives little incentive for boys to become men. Give him a few reasons.
posted by tarpin at 3:45 PM on May 23, 2013 [10 favorites]
Modern society gives little incentive for boys to become men. Give him a few reasons.
posted by tarpin at 3:45 PM on May 23, 2013 [10 favorites]
I'm happier, more productive, more relaxed, and more joyful because of his influence. I feel loved for the first time in my life. He takes good care of me. He shows me how much he loves me all the time... He is committed to me, has shared his family with me, tells me how wonderful I am every day, etc. He also has some rare personal traits that I have longed for for a very long time and never thought I'd find again.
This is basically every good relationship. As in, you should never be in a romantic relationship that doesn't meet these hurdles. If this is genuinely the first time in your life you've felt loved, then you have no way of know that, but it's true. Also true: it's everything else that makes or breaks a relationship. It sounds like his everything else breaks it.
I think you should take all the good from this relationship to establish a healthy baseline, and move on to find someone else who meets that standard and brings even more positive with way less negatives.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:46 PM on May 23, 2013 [46 favorites]
This is basically every good relationship. As in, you should never be in a romantic relationship that doesn't meet these hurdles. If this is genuinely the first time in your life you've felt loved, then you have no way of know that, but it's true. Also true: it's everything else that makes or breaks a relationship. It sounds like his everything else breaks it.
I think you should take all the good from this relationship to establish a healthy baseline, and move on to find someone else who meets that standard and brings even more positive with way less negatives.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:46 PM on May 23, 2013 [46 favorites]
Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better?
Yes. My horribly abusive ex-boyfriend changed me a lot - in some ways for the better, sure. I'm a lot calmer, more accepting, more easygoing because of him. I changed my career because of him and I'm happier in my job now. I am a lot prettier because of the modifications I made to my body at his request.
It's hard for me to deal with this sometimes. Sometimes I think the abuse made me a better person. I really am a better person now - but I am also older. Some of that mellowing might be age. Most of it was driven by fear, though. I don't know. I'm glad I am who I am now but I would be happier if I had never been abused. I'd take a sockermom that is a little cranky sometimes and who had her old job over a sockermom that had been beaten into submission any day, but that person doesn't exist anymore. I have changed because of the abuse. Some of those changes are good, sure, but most of them are sad.
I am so glad I walked away. I can improve on my own. My life is infinitely better without being yelled at and physically threatened. It was like living with a dictator - and a lot of what you describe happened exactly that way in my relationship.
Now, when I want to relax I don't have to lock myself in the bathroom and pretend my stomach hurts just to get alone time. When I want to watch a movie I do it on my own time, and I choose what I watch. When I want to eat, guess what? I eat (and I've gotten healthier with my eating habits, and while I've gained ten pounds I weighed under 90 when I left him so I'm happy with the weight). If I want to hang out with my friends, I can. If I want to go shopping, I can. If I want to sleep, I can.
If I want to change, I can. I can do it on my own without an oppressive, soul-crushing man telling me how to behave; without him using his "love" as a bargaining chip. You can too.
posted by sockermom at 3:47 PM on May 23, 2013 [36 favorites]
Yes. My horribly abusive ex-boyfriend changed me a lot - in some ways for the better, sure. I'm a lot calmer, more accepting, more easygoing because of him. I changed my career because of him and I'm happier in my job now. I am a lot prettier because of the modifications I made to my body at his request.
It's hard for me to deal with this sometimes. Sometimes I think the abuse made me a better person. I really am a better person now - but I am also older. Some of that mellowing might be age. Most of it was driven by fear, though. I don't know. I'm glad I am who I am now but I would be happier if I had never been abused. I'd take a sockermom that is a little cranky sometimes and who had her old job over a sockermom that had been beaten into submission any day, but that person doesn't exist anymore. I have changed because of the abuse. Some of those changes are good, sure, but most of them are sad.
I am so glad I walked away. I can improve on my own. My life is infinitely better without being yelled at and physically threatened. It was like living with a dictator - and a lot of what you describe happened exactly that way in my relationship.
Now, when I want to relax I don't have to lock myself in the bathroom and pretend my stomach hurts just to get alone time. When I want to watch a movie I do it on my own time, and I choose what I watch. When I want to eat, guess what? I eat (and I've gotten healthier with my eating habits, and while I've gained ten pounds I weighed under 90 when I left him so I'm happy with the weight). If I want to hang out with my friends, I can. If I want to go shopping, I can. If I want to sleep, I can.
If I want to change, I can. I can do it on my own without an oppressive, soul-crushing man telling me how to behave; without him using his "love" as a bargaining chip. You can too.
posted by sockermom at 3:47 PM on May 23, 2013 [36 favorites]
Have you approached the specific issues with them when they occur? How does he respond? For example, if you declare, "We watched Prometheus last week, tonight we're watching Friends With Kids"? Or, "I know Bob isn't your favorite person, but he's a good friend of mine and we're guests in his home, it's important to me that you be polite and engage him in some conversation, even if it's just small talk about the weather."
Those are rational requests/directives and any partner in an equal relationship should be OK with them. If he pouts or storms off, that shows a total lack of respect for you as an equal partner.
posted by payoto at 3:54 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
Those are rational requests/directives and any partner in an equal relationship should be OK with them. If he pouts or storms off, that shows a total lack of respect for you as an equal partner.
posted by payoto at 3:54 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
Imagine that none of this is going to change (because it isn't). Do you want to be in this relationship? If so, find ways to make it work for you. If not, find ways to separate.
posted by rosa at 3:57 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by rosa at 3:57 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
I was just going to say what BostonTerrier said: I would always think of hypoglycemia if someone had to eat right now. I don't know how this fits with everything else about him. You say he's a wonderful person in all other ways, well, he probably is.
A lot of people are going to say this guy is nothing but a selfish asshole, but I don't know how I or anyone can know that. It also seems as though this is not something that's likely to change, but again, it's not something that I or anyone can tell you. All you can do is wait it out and see if he changes. Are you prepared to invest the time? Like, years?
Because, if your question is "my partner would be great if only he would change", but he shows no signs of wanting to change and may not be able to, then, you might have to accept what you cannot change.
Basically I think it's a choice between continuing like this indefinitely, or deciding that you don't want to put up with it any more, and splitting up. You can say "yes, but" all you like, but those are your choices. Be in a relationship with someone who is wonderful but is also like this, or break up with someone who is wonderful but is also like this.
Sorry, it sucks.
posted by tel3path at 3:58 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
A lot of people are going to say this guy is nothing but a selfish asshole, but I don't know how I or anyone can know that. It also seems as though this is not something that's likely to change, but again, it's not something that I or anyone can tell you. All you can do is wait it out and see if he changes. Are you prepared to invest the time? Like, years?
Because, if your question is "my partner would be great if only he would change", but he shows no signs of wanting to change and may not be able to, then, you might have to accept what you cannot change.
Basically I think it's a choice between continuing like this indefinitely, or deciding that you don't want to put up with it any more, and splitting up. You can say "yes, but" all you like, but those are your choices. Be in a relationship with someone who is wonderful but is also like this, or break up with someone who is wonderful but is also like this.
Sorry, it sucks.
posted by tel3path at 3:58 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Two more things:
It's fine that he wants to eat when he is hungry and sleep when he is tired, but that should go both ways. It sounds like he makes you eat when he wants to eat without regard for whether or not you are hungry or he will throw a fit.
That is not ok.
Also, I knew it was you without looking at your username about three sentences in on the "more inside". You need to start talking to a therapist about this stuff, because you aren't taking our advice and our advice isn't going to change at this point. You can't convince yourself that you should stay with him (because he's probably abusive, given all the details I've strung together from your previous posts) and you aren't going to convince us, either.
I'm not saying "stop asking Metafilter," I'm saying that I don't think you're going to get what you want from us unless you heavily skew your questions (something I did in my questions here when I was trying to figure out how to stop the abuse - it can't be stopped by you, by the way; you have to leave to stop it from happening to you in almost all cases).
It took me two years of weekly therapy to finally leave my abuser. It is a process. It's ok that it's taking you awhile. I wish you lots of luck on this journey.
posted by sockermom at 3:59 PM on May 23, 2013 [16 favorites]
It's fine that he wants to eat when he is hungry and sleep when he is tired, but that should go both ways. It sounds like he makes you eat when he wants to eat without regard for whether or not you are hungry or he will throw a fit.
That is not ok.
Also, I knew it was you without looking at your username about three sentences in on the "more inside". You need to start talking to a therapist about this stuff, because you aren't taking our advice and our advice isn't going to change at this point. You can't convince yourself that you should stay with him (because he's probably abusive, given all the details I've strung together from your previous posts) and you aren't going to convince us, either.
I'm not saying "stop asking Metafilter," I'm saying that I don't think you're going to get what you want from us unless you heavily skew your questions (something I did in my questions here when I was trying to figure out how to stop the abuse - it can't be stopped by you, by the way; you have to leave to stop it from happening to you in almost all cases).
It took me two years of weekly therapy to finally leave my abuser. It is a process. It's ok that it's taking you awhile. I wish you lots of luck on this journey.
posted by sockermom at 3:59 PM on May 23, 2013 [16 favorites]
I just don't know what to do and think maybe I'm not phrasing the question correctly.
You are phrasing the question correctly. You're just not getting the answer you want, because the answer you want is not a helpful one.
DarlingBri is right: the great things about your boyfriend, the things you love so much, are true of any good relationship with anyone. What you're telling us is that your boyfriend is basically adequate except for a bunch of really important areas in which he is an asshole.
Your description of your boyfriend is a description of an asshole. Go to couples counseling together, dump him, or decide to commit to dating an asshole. Those were your only three options the last time you asked a question about your boyfriend and they are your only three options this time as well.
That time you asked a question about your boyfriend, I said this:
If you float the idea of couples counseling to him, I have a really strong feeling he will be opposed to it and won't even want to discuss it. If that is indeed how it plays out, I'm suggesting that you ask yourself: If I knew that was going to happen, just from reading your questions, what else might I be right about, here?
Call him tonight and tell him you want to go to couples counseling. See what he says. I assume the question won't come as a surprise to him in the wake of whatever conflict eroded your patience and made you post this question. Do not accept "I'll think about it" or "Maybe, let's talk about it later" as an answer. Either he agrees, and you call someone tomorrow, or he does not.
If he won't go, see above, and either leave or accept his tantrummy manchild bullshit as the cost of dating someone who meets the minimum requirements of basic human decency except for all the times when he really, really doesn't.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 4:10 PM on May 23, 2013 [36 favorites]
You are phrasing the question correctly. You're just not getting the answer you want, because the answer you want is not a helpful one.
DarlingBri is right: the great things about your boyfriend, the things you love so much, are true of any good relationship with anyone. What you're telling us is that your boyfriend is basically adequate except for a bunch of really important areas in which he is an asshole.
Your description of your boyfriend is a description of an asshole. Go to couples counseling together, dump him, or decide to commit to dating an asshole. Those were your only three options the last time you asked a question about your boyfriend and they are your only three options this time as well.
That time you asked a question about your boyfriend, I said this:
If you float the idea of couples counseling to him, I have a really strong feeling he will be opposed to it and won't even want to discuss it. If that is indeed how it plays out, I'm suggesting that you ask yourself: If I knew that was going to happen, just from reading your questions, what else might I be right about, here?
Call him tonight and tell him you want to go to couples counseling. See what he says. I assume the question won't come as a surprise to him in the wake of whatever conflict eroded your patience and made you post this question. Do not accept "I'll think about it" or "Maybe, let's talk about it later" as an answer. Either he agrees, and you call someone tomorrow, or he does not.
If he won't go, see above, and either leave or accept his tantrummy manchild bullshit as the cost of dating someone who meets the minimum requirements of basic human decency except for all the times when he really, really doesn't.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 4:10 PM on May 23, 2013 [36 favorites]
If he wants to see me, he gets really distressed if I have other plans. It's very emotionally demanding to be around him. It's draining.
He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it.
So, let me ask you something. How long are you willing to put parts of yourself - parts of yourself that you are absolutely entitled to! - on hold for the sake of mollifying him when he decides that it's awful for you to have other plans or that he's not going to take you dancing or see the movie you want to see? How long are you willing to be "drained"? Another month? Another year? The rest of your life?
Think about that for a second.
I was in a similar relationship - he didn't ever want to do anything he didn't want, got sulky when I made plans without him, was emotionally demanding and draining. I wanted to go dancing? Too bad, he didn't want to, wasn't going to, and if I went out with my friends, it was Pouty McSulky Face. I wanted to see a movie? If he wasn't interested, too bad. If I went alone, whine whine whine. Everything was always about him. When/where/what to eat, who to hang out with. "I'm sorry"? No, there was always a "but" involved that he expected would let him off the hook for his shitty behavior. Sure, he told me he loved me, he made me feel happy, loved, cared for, stable...when he wasn't sucking my very life force out of me with his constant demands.
Six months of being held emotional hostage was more than enough for me. I walked. It was absolutely the right decision for me, it freed me up to meet a man who, while not perfect, did not thoroughly exhaust me with his selfishness and did not send me running for advice every few months about how to "improve the relationship".
I'm sorry. You don't want to hear this. You've made that much clear. But I'm going to say it anyway and hope it sticks and hope you don't continue to waste yourself on someone with so little regard for you: DTMFA.
posted by MissySedai at 4:13 PM on May 23, 2013 [24 favorites]
He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it.
So, let me ask you something. How long are you willing to put parts of yourself - parts of yourself that you are absolutely entitled to! - on hold for the sake of mollifying him when he decides that it's awful for you to have other plans or that he's not going to take you dancing or see the movie you want to see? How long are you willing to be "drained"? Another month? Another year? The rest of your life?
Think about that for a second.
I was in a similar relationship - he didn't ever want to do anything he didn't want, got sulky when I made plans without him, was emotionally demanding and draining. I wanted to go dancing? Too bad, he didn't want to, wasn't going to, and if I went out with my friends, it was Pouty McSulky Face. I wanted to see a movie? If he wasn't interested, too bad. If I went alone, whine whine whine. Everything was always about him. When/where/what to eat, who to hang out with. "I'm sorry"? No, there was always a "but" involved that he expected would let him off the hook for his shitty behavior. Sure, he told me he loved me, he made me feel happy, loved, cared for, stable...when he wasn't sucking my very life force out of me with his constant demands.
Six months of being held emotional hostage was more than enough for me. I walked. It was absolutely the right decision for me, it freed me up to meet a man who, while not perfect, did not thoroughly exhaust me with his selfishness and did not send me running for advice every few months about how to "improve the relationship".
I'm sorry. You don't want to hear this. You've made that much clear. But I'm going to say it anyway and hope it sticks and hope you don't continue to waste yourself on someone with so little regard for you: DTMFA.
posted by MissySedai at 4:13 PM on May 23, 2013 [24 favorites]
Out and about with a friend the other day I was abruptly offered a protein bar. Oh! Thank you but no, I'm good... "I usually have to eat around this time or I get terrible, so I carry them with me." You know, like any reasonably self-aware grown-up might do. If he is hypoglycaemic, so what; a reasonable person would have made adjustments to accomodate that.
I just don't know what to do and think maybe I'm not phrasing the question correctly
No, I think that part you're doing okay with, because everybody on here who has ever been in an abusive relationship is recognising the shitty situation you're in and the familiar endless rationalising, and correctly and reasonably telling you to leave. You are doing okay with communicating your situation.
That's great that you feel you're "happier, more productive, more relaxed." You'll be that way when you dump him, and then some. The stuff you're posting about isn't a reasonable "price of admission" -- which might be incurable illness or an inability to quit smoking or infertility or some other thing that happens and which may be a dealbreaker for some -- it's just crappy, abusive behaviour. He's not wonderful. Just because your life was for whatever reasons lousy before this guy came around does not mean that you need to keep him around to keep the improvements you've made. Having difficulties with a friend because your partner treated them poorly sounds painful and embarrassing. What good you are able to point to about him is run-of-the-mill, and the bad sounds very bad.
posted by kmennie at 4:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [14 favorites]
I just don't know what to do and think maybe I'm not phrasing the question correctly
No, I think that part you're doing okay with, because everybody on here who has ever been in an abusive relationship is recognising the shitty situation you're in and the familiar endless rationalising, and correctly and reasonably telling you to leave. You are doing okay with communicating your situation.
That's great that you feel you're "happier, more productive, more relaxed." You'll be that way when you dump him, and then some. The stuff you're posting about isn't a reasonable "price of admission" -- which might be incurable illness or an inability to quit smoking or infertility or some other thing that happens and which may be a dealbreaker for some -- it's just crappy, abusive behaviour. He's not wonderful. Just because your life was for whatever reasons lousy before this guy came around does not mean that you need to keep him around to keep the improvements you've made. Having difficulties with a friend because your partner treated them poorly sounds painful and embarrassing. What good you are able to point to about him is run-of-the-mill, and the bad sounds very bad.
posted by kmennie at 4:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [14 favorites]
I still live with my two adult sons who are both 2xE. We have a good relationship. They can still be crazymaking at times. We just handle things differently from what you would see in a lot of normal relationships.
Some thoughts:
Why are you watching his sci fi? What makes you think you need to? I think it is only a problem that he doesn't watch your stuff if he expects you to watch his and does not reciprocate.
Why did you stay with the friend? If your S.O. can't deal with other people or some types of other people, then stay in a hotel or don't go or find some other solution.
Impatience is fostered by unmet need and this is common with 2xE types. My oldest acted like a video game addict when he was younger. Then we sold a bunch of his video games, he bought a bunch more in one fell swoop and had a video game feast. After that, he could let it go and became a generally calmer person. He finally got enough at one time and something in him changed.
My ex husband also changed after a cruise. The food was part of the cost. He grew up with not enough food and not enough money. Something about the way food was handled on the cruise fixed something about his unhealthy relationship to food. He quit doing weird things like hiding food from other family members.
My ex just had to be "right." His need to be right is part of what killed the marriage. It is probably related to something else, like a social dynamic that basically asserts that "if you are wrong, you my bitch and abuse will be heaped upon you." Try to determine what is going on there and address whatever the heck it is.
And don't worry about this being hard. I mean don't feel like you are stupid or something. People who are 2xE tend to defy all the standard answers and expert opinions. You have to make it up as you go and other people mostly won't understand. I got pity at work for being the long suffering mom of adult special needs sons who had never had a job and were still living with me...until they learned my sons did the housework and cooking, then most women were envious. Most people just won't understand your situation. It simply won't fit their world view.
posted by Michele in California at 4:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Some thoughts:
Why are you watching his sci fi? What makes you think you need to? I think it is only a problem that he doesn't watch your stuff if he expects you to watch his and does not reciprocate.
Why did you stay with the friend? If your S.O. can't deal with other people or some types of other people, then stay in a hotel or don't go or find some other solution.
Impatience is fostered by unmet need and this is common with 2xE types. My oldest acted like a video game addict when he was younger. Then we sold a bunch of his video games, he bought a bunch more in one fell swoop and had a video game feast. After that, he could let it go and became a generally calmer person. He finally got enough at one time and something in him changed.
My ex husband also changed after a cruise. The food was part of the cost. He grew up with not enough food and not enough money. Something about the way food was handled on the cruise fixed something about his unhealthy relationship to food. He quit doing weird things like hiding food from other family members.
My ex just had to be "right." His need to be right is part of what killed the marriage. It is probably related to something else, like a social dynamic that basically asserts that "if you are wrong, you my bitch and abuse will be heaped upon you." Try to determine what is going on there and address whatever the heck it is.
And don't worry about this being hard. I mean don't feel like you are stupid or something. People who are 2xE tend to defy all the standard answers and expert opinions. You have to make it up as you go and other people mostly won't understand. I got pity at work for being the long suffering mom of adult special needs sons who had never had a job and were still living with me...until they learned my sons did the housework and cooking, then most women were envious. Most people just won't understand your situation. It simply won't fit their world view.
posted by Michele in California at 4:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
So go to girly movies with other people. He's not going to change on all of these points, so if you want to be with him, you're going to be going to his movies, seeing his pals, and all the rest. Maybe you need to hang out with other people, rather than trying to get him to do all the fun things you want to do and he doesn't.
posted by Ideefixe at 4:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 4:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
I mean, are these flaws so bad that you'd consider breaking up with him for it?
Everybody has flaws. His sound irritating, but not dealbreaker, to me*. Especially since you say you are happy and feel loved and that he's a great boyfriend otherwise.
*Except for the last thing, about staying with a friend while traveling. That would drive me UP THE FUCKING WALL and potentially be a break-up-able offense. But YMMV of course.
posted by Sara C. at 4:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Everybody has flaws. His sound irritating, but not dealbreaker, to me*. Especially since you say you are happy and feel loved and that he's a great boyfriend otherwise.
*Except for the last thing, about staying with a friend while traveling. That would drive me UP THE FUCKING WALL and potentially be a break-up-able offense. But YMMV of course.
posted by Sara C. at 4:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
A lot of us give the DTMFA advice because we've been in relationships waaaayyyy past their expiration date and feel that our lives would have been much improved had to DTMFA'd long before.
But I'm not going to give that advice, here. The truth is that relationships like yours aren't uncommon. There are plenty of relationships where one person gets a lot of out the relationship where the other partner is just simply difficult for everyone else to deal with and put up with and doesn't act like a normal adult. What usually happens as a result is that all of the old friends of the "reasonable" partner stop hanging out with them or, alternately, the couple arranges things so that the two of them have a lot of "on their own" time so that the more "difficult" partner can indulge his or her needs on a whim without having to negotiate with someone else and the "reasonable" partner can hang out with his or her friends and do things that he or she wants without having to pull teeth to get the difficult partner to do anything or having the difficult partner drag things down and alienate their friends when they're out socializing.
If you're comfortable with that state of affairs, then it could work out. Just don't expect him to change. Certain relationships of people's friends they describe in terms of, "Look, so-and-so's spouse isn't my favorite person in the world, but they love each other and work well together, and that's what makes so-and-so happy."
This isn't going to be a relationship where you to "couples things" together with other friends and their SOs, though, and you'll have to do a lot of socializing with friends on your own.
posted by deanc at 4:20 PM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
But I'm not going to give that advice, here. The truth is that relationships like yours aren't uncommon. There are plenty of relationships where one person gets a lot of out the relationship where the other partner is just simply difficult for everyone else to deal with and put up with and doesn't act like a normal adult. What usually happens as a result is that all of the old friends of the "reasonable" partner stop hanging out with them or, alternately, the couple arranges things so that the two of them have a lot of "on their own" time so that the more "difficult" partner can indulge his or her needs on a whim without having to negotiate with someone else and the "reasonable" partner can hang out with his or her friends and do things that he or she wants without having to pull teeth to get the difficult partner to do anything or having the difficult partner drag things down and alienate their friends when they're out socializing.
If you're comfortable with that state of affairs, then it could work out. Just don't expect him to change. Certain relationships of people's friends they describe in terms of, "Look, so-and-so's spouse isn't my favorite person in the world, but they love each other and work well together, and that's what makes so-and-so happy."
This isn't going to be a relationship where you to "couples things" together with other friends and their SOs, though, and you'll have to do a lot of socializing with friends on your own.
posted by deanc at 4:20 PM on May 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
Stop trying to change the things you don't like, because he seems to have no interest whatsoever in changing them. Decide if you can handle the workarounds in order to make your life better (such as seeing girly movies with other people and dealing with the consequences when he's rude to people in your life that he doesn't like). If you're okay with that scenario, you're golden. Otherwise, you need to decide to break up.
posted by xingcat at 4:25 PM on May 23, 2013
posted by xingcat at 4:25 PM on May 23, 2013
I was your boyfriend in my relationship when I was about 19. Some of the behaviors have lingered to this day, and they always creep back if I'm not on the look out.
What's changed me has been a desire to change and counseling. You say he's open to it, so encourage him to do it. His life will be so much better if he learns that he doesn't have to be at the whims of what likely feel like volatile and unpredictable emotions. And, from what my husband tells me, yours will, too.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
What's changed me has been a desire to change and counseling. You say he's open to it, so encourage him to do it. His life will be so much better if he learns that he doesn't have to be at the whims of what likely feel like volatile and unpredictable emotions. And, from what my husband tells me, yours will, too.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Trying to stay on the particular questions you've asked and not get into meta-discussions, especially since I see a lot of who I've been in your description of him...
... If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. ... — In modern times we have a gazillion devices lying around houses. As a start, I'd suggest that he watch what he wants and you watch what you want. This is also a part of maintaining your own space, as a pre-requisite to solving: "If he wants to see me, he gets really distressed if I have other plans.". You can't be everything to the other person. That way lies failure. Hold your ground here so that you and he can set up patterns which involve separate interests, that'll serve you better in the long-term.
... I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. ... — I used to be this guy. For over a decade in my current relationship I was this guy. I hated everything about dancing, the too loud music, the flailing around trying to emulate what other people were doing so I could fit in. Finally, Mrs. Straw dragged me to an intro to square dancing, and I suddenly learned that if I had choreography and was mentally challenged by the dancing, I freakin' love it! I just took the initiative and made hotel reservations so we can go dancing for several days straight for our first-meeting-anniversary weekend.
What I'm asking is: Is there a compromise activity that might work for both of you? Is he an otherwise fit person who knows how to move (ie: I was a fairly accomplished skater, she couldn't understand why I'd gladly chaperone a birthday party at the skating rink but wouldn't go flail to a band)? Can you drag him to something where the social aspects are largely taken care of because everyone's a beginner?
- He has a lot of trouble listening. — I used to be a whiner, 'til two specific instances where people called me on my shit. One said "no, you don't really want that", the other said "sucks to be you, dude". Maybe now I don't express enough, but given a little mirror on what I was doing, I was able to change.
- When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. — Story from early in my current relationship: She got defensive and pissy quickly. Eventually we decided to try B Vitamins and Omega 3s. She asked for help on this, asked me to say something when she was all defensive. So when it happened, I said "why don't you take some B vitamins?", she said "Don't you discount my feelilngs, you insensitive son of a bitch", I said "Okay, you're right, let's talk about your feelings, but humor me and take some Bs first.". Fifteen minutes later she said "huh, you're right", and we've never had that problem again.
Not saying it works for everyone, not even making medical claims for B vitamins, just proposing one way to have the conversation.
And at some point, I'm not sure how, I trained myself to replace the defensive feeling with "thank you", and then sort it out on my own. Not sure how to get someone else to do that.
- We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. ... — Again, I don't know how to get him to see this, but I have discovered that when I think someone is "boring and uncreative", it's because I'm asking boring and uncreative questions.
Not that I don't get all eye-rolly at times, and I admit that on a recent trip to see an old friend of hers I confessed that I was okay with running interference with her friend's roommate, but in smaller doses please...
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better? — Yep. And I think I can solidly say "so has my partner", and we're still together and making long-term plans.
posted by straw at 4:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
... If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. ... — In modern times we have a gazillion devices lying around houses. As a start, I'd suggest that he watch what he wants and you watch what you want. This is also a part of maintaining your own space, as a pre-requisite to solving: "If he wants to see me, he gets really distressed if I have other plans.". You can't be everything to the other person. That way lies failure. Hold your ground here so that you and he can set up patterns which involve separate interests, that'll serve you better in the long-term.
... I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. ... — I used to be this guy. For over a decade in my current relationship I was this guy. I hated everything about dancing, the too loud music, the flailing around trying to emulate what other people were doing so I could fit in. Finally, Mrs. Straw dragged me to an intro to square dancing, and I suddenly learned that if I had choreography and was mentally challenged by the dancing, I freakin' love it! I just took the initiative and made hotel reservations so we can go dancing for several days straight for our first-meeting-anniversary weekend.
What I'm asking is: Is there a compromise activity that might work for both of you? Is he an otherwise fit person who knows how to move (ie: I was a fairly accomplished skater, she couldn't understand why I'd gladly chaperone a birthday party at the skating rink but wouldn't go flail to a band)? Can you drag him to something where the social aspects are largely taken care of because everyone's a beginner?
- He has a lot of trouble listening. — I used to be a whiner, 'til two specific instances where people called me on my shit. One said "no, you don't really want that", the other said "sucks to be you, dude". Maybe now I don't express enough, but given a little mirror on what I was doing, I was able to change.
- When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. — Story from early in my current relationship: She got defensive and pissy quickly. Eventually we decided to try B Vitamins and Omega 3s. She asked for help on this, asked me to say something when she was all defensive. So when it happened, I said "why don't you take some B vitamins?", she said "Don't you discount my feelilngs, you insensitive son of a bitch", I said "Okay, you're right, let's talk about your feelings, but humor me and take some Bs first.". Fifteen minutes later she said "huh, you're right", and we've never had that problem again.
Not saying it works for everyone, not even making medical claims for B vitamins, just proposing one way to have the conversation.
And at some point, I'm not sure how, I trained myself to replace the defensive feeling with "thank you", and then sort it out on my own. Not sure how to get someone else to do that.
- We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. ... — Again, I don't know how to get him to see this, but I have discovered that when I think someone is "boring and uncreative", it's because I'm asking boring and uncreative questions.
Not that I don't get all eye-rolly at times, and I admit that on a recent trip to see an old friend of hers I confessed that I was okay with running interference with her friend's roommate, but in smaller doses please...
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better? — Yep. And I think I can solidly say "so has my partner", and we're still together and making long-term plans.
posted by straw at 4:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
the thing about people who have high levels of narcissism is that they also have some really charming and attractive qualities. it's so much easier to disengage from a jerk who doesn't have the charming qualities. you are putting up with a lot of bullshit in my opinion. him being so rude to your friend that you two stayed with would be a dealbreaker for me. honestly, your standards in relationships seem really low and it sounds like you are settling.
as famous monster said: either get couples counseling, stay and accept him as he is or move on. there really aren't any other options.
posted by wildflower at 4:34 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
as famous monster said: either get couples counseling, stay and accept him as he is or move on. there really aren't any other options.
posted by wildflower at 4:34 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
I should mention that there is an issue of opportunity cost. Sure you have grown while in this relationship with your boyfriend but you may well have gone through that growth without him in the picture or while dating someone else. Yes, he has his good points, but there are plenty of people who ALSO have those good points AND are capable of acting like grownups.
Maybe your boyfriend will grow up. Maybe he won't. It's unclear whether his problems are unacceptable to you and you are just staying because you're thankful for what he has done for you in the past or whether you don't consider his problems all that important, but you're realizing they alienate you from your friends and you're wondering if you should prioritize those things more.
posted by deanc at 4:40 PM on May 23, 2013
Maybe your boyfriend will grow up. Maybe he won't. It's unclear whether his problems are unacceptable to you and you are just staying because you're thankful for what he has done for you in the past or whether you don't consider his problems all that important, but you're realizing they alienate you from your friends and you're wondering if you should prioritize those things more.
posted by deanc at 4:40 PM on May 23, 2013
He's open to reading more about the subject, and to counseling. He says he'd be happy to learn some techniques to be better at this.
What's he waiting for? Have you said "ok, so act on this, I want to go dancing on [x date]"?
He has been diagnosed with ADHD and learning disabilities. I've been reading quite a bit on these subjects and I know that some of these difficulties are typical.
Difficulties don't give adults a pass on kindness and courtesy and meeting the clearly expressed needs of their partners.
posted by headnsouth at 4:41 PM on May 23, 2013 [13 favorites]
What's he waiting for? Have you said "ok, so act on this, I want to go dancing on [x date]"?
He has been diagnosed with ADHD and learning disabilities. I've been reading quite a bit on these subjects and I know that some of these difficulties are typical.
Difficulties don't give adults a pass on kindness and courtesy and meeting the clearly expressed needs of their partners.
posted by headnsouth at 4:41 PM on May 23, 2013 [13 favorites]
Best answer: This man will never, ever, ever, ever, from now until the end of time, make you a priority in his life. Not when you want to watch something that's not his first choice of movie, not when you need to sleep and he wants to play loud video games, not when you want to talk and he won't wait to hear what you have to say, not when you're sick in the hospital and he hates hospitals, not when you have a job crisis and he wants to get laid, NOT EVER.
Are you OK with that?
posted by shiny blue object at 4:58 PM on May 23, 2013 [41 favorites]
Are you OK with that?
posted by shiny blue object at 4:58 PM on May 23, 2013 [41 favorites]
No, none of the stuff you mention sounds like DTMFA territory, but it does sound trying. I can see why you're frustrated and upset.
The fact that the guy is willing to work on this stuff is hopeful, though. Since he has expressed that he is open to counselling, couples counselling would be a good place to start.
If your guy is young, some of this stuff may get better with age and experience. Some stuff, he may be willing to change (or at least manage) for your sake. All that said, though, you need to be realistic about who he is. He may learn to manage his behavior better, but it's unlikely to change completely. You need to figure out if you can still be happy with this guy, knowing this.
I think you need to decide:
1) What, if anything, is a dealbreaker.
2) What, if anything, will become a dealbreaker, if he can't/isn't willing to change.
3) The stuff that's just annoying, but ultimately worth settling for in light of the good stuff. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Price of Admission" on here by now.
posted by Broseph at 5:06 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fact that the guy is willing to work on this stuff is hopeful, though. Since he has expressed that he is open to counselling, couples counselling would be a good place to start.
If your guy is young, some of this stuff may get better with age and experience. Some stuff, he may be willing to change (or at least manage) for your sake. All that said, though, you need to be realistic about who he is. He may learn to manage his behavior better, but it's unlikely to change completely. You need to figure out if you can still be happy with this guy, knowing this.
I think you need to decide:
1) What, if anything, is a dealbreaker.
2) What, if anything, will become a dealbreaker, if he can't/isn't willing to change.
3) The stuff that's just annoying, but ultimately worth settling for in light of the good stuff. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Price of Admission" on here by now.
posted by Broseph at 5:06 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
In addition to guessing it was you before I saw your byline, I also associate your name with very sound advice in other people's relationship questions. You should really think about the advice you'd give to a friend in your situation. You are a smart cookie.
But in a way, you are asking the wrong question. You've already decided to throw away your control over the things you list and to stay in this relationship that makes you very happy sometimes. You're doing it right this moment.
It isn't about whether you should do it. The question is, does it make you happy? Because this is what it looks like, right now. And even if people can change (which they can't), it's never going to look all that much different.
A final note: If you find yourself talking to people about your partner and your relationship a whole lot, and describing it in very carefully chosen terms that paint a very specific picture, then ask yourself who you are trying to convince: them or yourself? Honestly, good relationships just don't require this much thought. Even with people who have diagnoses of one kind or another.
posted by juliplease at 5:13 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
But in a way, you are asking the wrong question. You've already decided to throw away your control over the things you list and to stay in this relationship that makes you very happy sometimes. You're doing it right this moment.
It isn't about whether you should do it. The question is, does it make you happy? Because this is what it looks like, right now. And even if people can change (which they can't), it's never going to look all that much different.
A final note: If you find yourself talking to people about your partner and your relationship a whole lot, and describing it in very carefully chosen terms that paint a very specific picture, then ask yourself who you are trying to convince: them or yourself? Honestly, good relationships just don't require this much thought. Even with people who have diagnoses of one kind or another.
posted by juliplease at 5:13 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
To answer your actual question: Okay, don't DTMFA. You don't want to, and every time you post a question there will be some people who'll tell you what you want to hear. But please get yourself some therapy, if you aren't already, because Rule #1 is that you can't change other people, but you can change how they affect you. If you are already in therapy, be really honest with your therapist about what's going on in your relationship.
That said,
Listen. One of the things many people who grew up in abusive homes share is the memory of being told "I'm the only one who will ever love you" or "I'm doing this [horrible thing] to you because I love you and no one else will ever love you" or "I'm stuck with you but you have no redeeming qualities and no one will ever love you".
And meanwhile they're beating on us or molesting us or breaking our stuff or neglecting us or being hyper critical of every little thing we do and say or Your Abuse Here. (Please don't take this as mocking child abuse - we laugh so we don't cry, sometimes.)
Then Formerly Abused Child grows up and GETS THE HELL OUT and starts learning what "normal" relationships (of all kinds) look like. And "normal" frequently looks very similar to what we GOT THE HELL OUT of except for small differences that are huge for us.
So, for instance, one of the first friends I made after getting away from a hyper critical parent was someone who was hyper critical of me. And it took me literally decades to end this friendship because I couldn't possibly be replicating my family experience with this person who was never violent or intentionally demeaning but only kept me walking on eggshells in every conversation because I never knew when the judgmental comments would start...ohhhhh.
tl;dr: People from abusive backgrounds often have low standards for the way they deserve to be treated in relationships that occur post-abuse. You made you who you are, and you deserve better. It took me a long time to believe the people who told me that, too, but it's true.
posted by camyram at 5:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [28 favorites]
That said,
I feel loved for the first time in my life.this is what stands out for me in your question, because I remember some of your previous questions and the personal history you've shared in them.
Listen. One of the things many people who grew up in abusive homes share is the memory of being told "I'm the only one who will ever love you" or "I'm doing this [horrible thing] to you because I love you and no one else will ever love you" or "I'm stuck with you but you have no redeeming qualities and no one will ever love you".
And meanwhile they're beating on us or molesting us or breaking our stuff or neglecting us or being hyper critical of every little thing we do and say or Your Abuse Here. (Please don't take this as mocking child abuse - we laugh so we don't cry, sometimes.)
Then Formerly Abused Child grows up and GETS THE HELL OUT and starts learning what "normal" relationships (of all kinds) look like. And "normal" frequently looks very similar to what we GOT THE HELL OUT of except for small differences that are huge for us.
So, for instance, one of the first friends I made after getting away from a hyper critical parent was someone who was hyper critical of me. And it took me literally decades to end this friendship because I couldn't possibly be replicating my family experience with this person who was never violent or intentionally demeaning but only kept me walking on eggshells in every conversation because I never knew when the judgmental comments would start...ohhhhh.
tl;dr: People from abusive backgrounds often have low standards for the way they deserve to be treated in relationships that occur post-abuse. You made you who you are, and you deserve better. It took me a long time to believe the people who told me that, too, but it's true.
posted by camyram at 5:14 PM on May 23, 2013 [28 favorites]
Best answer: There are some things that are dealbreakers.
Husbunny watches all kinds of stuff that I can't stand and vice-versa. We have two TVs. We do agree to end the night in bed together, with the cats and something we both like.
I see real Rom-Com crap with my girlfriends, he watches the stupid Super-Dude movies with his buddies. I'm totally cool with that.
So this stuff is NOT a deal-breaker.
As for the hungry, if he's hungry, what do you expect him to do? Does he get a snack to tide him over, or does he demand you immediately head out for the early-bird special at Denny's.
You can manage that.
But the rest of it, dude, he's an asshole.
You can ask it sixteen different ways and most of us are always going to say: The good stuff is just the bare minimum. No one should be in any kind of relationship without it. But the bad stuff, you shouldn't put up with.
So, if I told you that if you're picky enough, that your next boyfriend will love you, dote on you, take great care of you AND, compromise, act like a person around your friends and manage to bring something more to the relationship than a penis, would you consider DTMFA and find someone who can tick more than the two basic boxes?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:16 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
Husbunny watches all kinds of stuff that I can't stand and vice-versa. We have two TVs. We do agree to end the night in bed together, with the cats and something we both like.
I see real Rom-Com crap with my girlfriends, he watches the stupid Super-Dude movies with his buddies. I'm totally cool with that.
So this stuff is NOT a deal-breaker.
As for the hungry, if he's hungry, what do you expect him to do? Does he get a snack to tide him over, or does he demand you immediately head out for the early-bird special at Denny's.
You can manage that.
But the rest of it, dude, he's an asshole.
You can ask it sixteen different ways and most of us are always going to say: The good stuff is just the bare minimum. No one should be in any kind of relationship without it. But the bad stuff, you shouldn't put up with.
So, if I told you that if you're picky enough, that your next boyfriend will love you, dote on you, take great care of you AND, compromise, act like a person around your friends and manage to bring something more to the relationship than a penis, would you consider DTMFA and find someone who can tick more than the two basic boxes?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:16 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
It sounds like you are always doing what he wants to do.
This is not entirely his fault.
If you don't want to watch his tv show, say you don't feel like watching it and you are going to go do something else. If he's distressed you have other plans, either tell him you expect him to deal with it in a mature way or invite him to join you for going dancing or hanging out with the friends he doesn't want to hang out with.
Talk to him about how sometimes you want to do different things, and how you would like to handle that. Yes, he may break up with you if you insist on doing things you want to do -- that will be your answer to whether this is a viable relationship.
If there's a disagreement on what to watch on a single tv set, buy another tv set and stop having disagreements over it.
Some people find it very stressful to stay with someone they don't know when traveling and have a much better time in hotels. Some people just don't go dancing. Some people get really hungry all of a sudden. Those things probably can't be changed.
posted by yohko at 5:17 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is not entirely his fault.
If you don't want to watch his tv show, say you don't feel like watching it and you are going to go do something else. If he's distressed you have other plans, either tell him you expect him to deal with it in a mature way or invite him to join you for going dancing or hanging out with the friends he doesn't want to hang out with.
Talk to him about how sometimes you want to do different things, and how you would like to handle that. Yes, he may break up with you if you insist on doing things you want to do -- that will be your answer to whether this is a viable relationship.
If there's a disagreement on what to watch on a single tv set, buy another tv set and stop having disagreements over it.
Some people find it very stressful to stay with someone they don't know when traveling and have a much better time in hotels. Some people just don't go dancing. Some people get really hungry all of a sudden. Those things probably can't be changed.
posted by yohko at 5:17 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Three observations:
1) As noted previously, you keep asking this same question over and over again, and getting largely the same response (namely, that there are significant reasons to move on from this relationship). The fact that you haven't seemed to take any of this advice suggests that you do indeed need to discuss this with a therapist, or at the very least to engage in some serious, no-bullshit introspection about why this is. I would also suggest reading the book How to Be an Adult in Relationships, which can provide some excellent insight into ways our families of origin influence the dynamics of our adult relationships, ways to identify/develop healthy relationship skills, and how to choose to partner only with other similarly healthy (or trying-to-be-healthy) people.
2) You characterize this relationship as very emotionally demanding to be around him. It's draining. Now, try to imagine another year of being drained like this. How about another five years? Ten? Twenty? A lifetime? (If you'd like to have kids, imagine children being exposed from infancy into young adulthood to the same dynamic, in which dad drains them, too.) How appealing does that sound?
What I am suggesting is that the price you pay for being emotionally exhausted for the rest of your life is not offset by the fact that he bought you a bike helmet, nor any of the other individual nice and even loving acts, gestures, etc. he's perfomed. There are millions of men who would buy you a bike helmet (and frankly, you can buy yourself a bike helmet) without the level of anger and narcissism that you describe. When one partner is an emotional vampire like this, it is pretty much always indicative of an unhealthy relationship. Healthy relationships, by contrast, feature the exact opposite dynamic: both partners are regularly energized or fulfilled, rather than exhausted or drained. (I point this out because you've noted previously that you've never been in a healthy relationship before.)
3) As for this matter of this relationship having made you a better person? That's great. I mean it sincerely. Resiliency -- the ability to stay strong and even grow from challenges and adversity -- is a marvelous quality, and one you should celebrate and cultivate! But in and of itself it is not a reason to stay with someone who produces such challenges and adversity for you. I mean, going through cancer made me a much better person in a lot of ways, but I still underwent treatment to get rid of it and I still wouldn't volunteer to have it again, you know?
tl;dr: I believe you deserve better than this. But until you believe the same thing, down deep in your bones, nothing anyone says will matter much.
posted by scody at 5:22 PM on May 23, 2013 [34 favorites]
1) As noted previously, you keep asking this same question over and over again, and getting largely the same response (namely, that there are significant reasons to move on from this relationship). The fact that you haven't seemed to take any of this advice suggests that you do indeed need to discuss this with a therapist, or at the very least to engage in some serious, no-bullshit introspection about why this is. I would also suggest reading the book How to Be an Adult in Relationships, which can provide some excellent insight into ways our families of origin influence the dynamics of our adult relationships, ways to identify/develop healthy relationship skills, and how to choose to partner only with other similarly healthy (or trying-to-be-healthy) people.
2) You characterize this relationship as very emotionally demanding to be around him. It's draining. Now, try to imagine another year of being drained like this. How about another five years? Ten? Twenty? A lifetime? (If you'd like to have kids, imagine children being exposed from infancy into young adulthood to the same dynamic, in which dad drains them, too.) How appealing does that sound?
What I am suggesting is that the price you pay for being emotionally exhausted for the rest of your life is not offset by the fact that he bought you a bike helmet, nor any of the other individual nice and even loving acts, gestures, etc. he's perfomed. There are millions of men who would buy you a bike helmet (and frankly, you can buy yourself a bike helmet) without the level of anger and narcissism that you describe. When one partner is an emotional vampire like this, it is pretty much always indicative of an unhealthy relationship. Healthy relationships, by contrast, feature the exact opposite dynamic: both partners are regularly energized or fulfilled, rather than exhausted or drained. (I point this out because you've noted previously that you've never been in a healthy relationship before.)
3) As for this matter of this relationship having made you a better person? That's great. I mean it sincerely. Resiliency -- the ability to stay strong and even grow from challenges and adversity -- is a marvelous quality, and one you should celebrate and cultivate! But in and of itself it is not a reason to stay with someone who produces such challenges and adversity for you. I mean, going through cancer made me a much better person in a lot of ways, but I still underwent treatment to get rid of it and I still wouldn't volunteer to have it again, you know?
tl;dr: I believe you deserve better than this. But until you believe the same thing, down deep in your bones, nothing anyone says will matter much.
posted by scody at 5:22 PM on May 23, 2013 [34 favorites]
I have a couple of male relatives who behave in a manner similar to the way you describe, and it can be quite hurtful. I'm not a medical professional of any sort but I found it interesting to read about "obsessive-compulsive personality disorder" (which is a different thing from "obsessive-compulsive disorder" that you more frequently hear mentioned and doesn't involve the same repetitive behavior, evidently); whether or not that clinically fits their behavior, it felt relevant and helpful to read online discussions of loved ones of people with OCPD, who form support groups for themselves because of the stress and difficulties trying to relate to OCPD sufferers can cause.
posted by XMLicious at 5:25 PM on May 23, 2013
posted by XMLicious at 5:25 PM on May 23, 2013
Fear is what's keeping you in your relationship. I suspect that you know you need to move on. What you really want is a way to turn him into someone he isn't. That's not going to happen. Soon enough, you'll be asking this question again. The answers will be the same.
Best of luck.
posted by 2oh1 at 5:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best of luck.
posted by 2oh1 at 5:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
This stands out to me most, too: I feel loved for the first time in my life.
It's wonderful that you feel loved. But, it's also a baseline for a relationship - if you were to break up with him, you would be able to find someone else who would love you and treat you with kindness and love - and you'll be able to find someone who treats you with respect. It sounds to me like in a lot of situations, your boyfriend does not treat you with respect. That would be a dealbreaker for me.
posted by insectosaurus at 5:30 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
It's wonderful that you feel loved. But, it's also a baseline for a relationship - if you were to break up with him, you would be able to find someone else who would love you and treat you with kindness and love - and you'll be able to find someone who treats you with respect. It sounds to me like in a lot of situations, your boyfriend does not treat you with respect. That would be a dealbreaker for me.
posted by insectosaurus at 5:30 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
So.... you're 'happier' and 'more relaxed' AND 'emotionally drained' all at the same time by someone who always has to have his own way, and basically says screw what YOU want?
I don't know what you mean by "non-neurotypical", but he sounds like an overgrown spoiled brat and a bully who doesn't give a damn about anyone else, including you.
posted by easily confused at 5:34 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
I don't know what you mean by "non-neurotypical", but he sounds like an overgrown spoiled brat and a bully who doesn't give a damn about anyone else, including you.
posted by easily confused at 5:34 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
I've posted this link previously, and I think it might be helpful. Quoting from my previous comment:
The Abuser in Therapy from Why Does He Do That?: "I have yet to meet an abuser who has made any meaningful and lasting changes in his behaviour toward female partners through therapy, regardless of how much 'insight' -- most of it false -- that he may have gained. The fact is that if an abuser finds a particularly skilled therapist and if the therapy is especially successful, when he is finished he will be a happy, well-adjusted abuser -- good news for him, perhaps, but not such good news for his partner. Psychotherapy can be very valuable for the issues it is devised to address, but partner abuse is not one of them; an abusive man needs to be in a specialised program."
The author also points out that abusive partners who do have mental illnesses often use them as an excuse for their behavior, but mental illness is rarely the actual cause of the abuse, and most abusers do actually have control of their actions and are actively choosing to blow up at their partner. (The usual point is that if they are able to keep their tempers around their bosses, the police, etc., then they do have the ability to control their behavior, they're just choosing not to around their partner.)
I think that's worth keeping in mind as you research things like ADHD, learning disabilities, or any personality disorders. Controlling behavior is controlling behavior regardless of any disorders or illnesses he may have.
posted by jaguar at 5:35 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
The Abuser in Therapy from Why Does He Do That?: "I have yet to meet an abuser who has made any meaningful and lasting changes in his behaviour toward female partners through therapy, regardless of how much 'insight' -- most of it false -- that he may have gained. The fact is that if an abuser finds a particularly skilled therapist and if the therapy is especially successful, when he is finished he will be a happy, well-adjusted abuser -- good news for him, perhaps, but not such good news for his partner. Psychotherapy can be very valuable for the issues it is devised to address, but partner abuse is not one of them; an abusive man needs to be in a specialised program."
The author also points out that abusive partners who do have mental illnesses often use them as an excuse for their behavior, but mental illness is rarely the actual cause of the abuse, and most abusers do actually have control of their actions and are actively choosing to blow up at their partner. (The usual point is that if they are able to keep their tempers around their bosses, the police, etc., then they do have the ability to control their behavior, they're just choosing not to around their partner.)
I think that's worth keeping in mind as you research things like ADHD, learning disabilities, or any personality disorders. Controlling behavior is controlling behavior regardless of any disorders or illnesses he may have.
posted by jaguar at 5:35 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you very much, everyone. It's so good to read your thoughts. I really appreciate this community being here for me, and all of you taking the time.
A few responses -- there were so many good ones I'm not sure what to favorite! But here are a few comments with questions or misunderstandings that I thought I'd correct.
zombieflanders - He has been reading up on these issues, and will discuss them with me. Sometimes he'll say: "I was thinking about the techniques in this book and I noticed something interesting." Or "I tried this thing they suggested and it helped." There has been some movement on this front, but not a lot.
kinetic - It's not harsh -- I appreciate the perspective. I'm staying in the relationship because I'm happier in it than not. But, like you said, every few months this really bothers me and I consider breaking up and then I think about all of the things I like and I don't.
Regarding hypoglycemia - I think this is part of it. He has switched to a high-protein diet and says he feels a lot better. I don't notice a huge change in behavior, but he mentions it a lot and I believe that it is having an emotional effect.
shinyblueobject - He has been there for me when it really counts (in the hospital, when I'm very upset). He wears headphones when I need to sleep. But he's sort of self-centered as a default, or when it's not a matter of health, safety, or something clear like that. (This is in contrast to my parents who refused to get me eyeglasses, for example, because they were angry with me. Or who let a wound that needed stitches get infected because I didn't ask them the right way to take me to the doctor.)
scody - It's not that I've learned to be more resilient because dealing with the relationship has made me stronger. I've had waaaay too much opportunity to learn to be resilient in my life so far! I've become a better person because I feel loved for the first time in my life. I'm not out seeking love and approval everywhere I go like I used to. I know someone has my back if something goes really wrong (and he's proven this to me over and over with his actions). I know I can buy my own bike helmet (and have for most of my life), but it's nice that someone cares about my safety other than me. I feel more confident and am less of a perfectionist because I believe that things will work out in the end and I'm not alone in the world if things go wrong. I'm not as clingy because I know he won't abandon me. I don't get stuck in spirals of depression and misery because he breaks me out of them by hugging me or asking how he can help or making me dinner. Etc. It's all really good stuff.
And then, there's this stuff I've written about here that just drives me crazy.
posted by 3491again at 5:51 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
A few responses -- there were so many good ones I'm not sure what to favorite! But here are a few comments with questions or misunderstandings that I thought I'd correct.
zombieflanders - He has been reading up on these issues, and will discuss them with me. Sometimes he'll say: "I was thinking about the techniques in this book and I noticed something interesting." Or "I tried this thing they suggested and it helped." There has been some movement on this front, but not a lot.
kinetic - It's not harsh -- I appreciate the perspective. I'm staying in the relationship because I'm happier in it than not. But, like you said, every few months this really bothers me and I consider breaking up and then I think about all of the things I like and I don't.
Regarding hypoglycemia - I think this is part of it. He has switched to a high-protein diet and says he feels a lot better. I don't notice a huge change in behavior, but he mentions it a lot and I believe that it is having an emotional effect.
shinyblueobject - He has been there for me when it really counts (in the hospital, when I'm very upset). He wears headphones when I need to sleep. But he's sort of self-centered as a default, or when it's not a matter of health, safety, or something clear like that. (This is in contrast to my parents who refused to get me eyeglasses, for example, because they were angry with me. Or who let a wound that needed stitches get infected because I didn't ask them the right way to take me to the doctor.)
scody - It's not that I've learned to be more resilient because dealing with the relationship has made me stronger. I've had waaaay too much opportunity to learn to be resilient in my life so far! I've become a better person because I feel loved for the first time in my life. I'm not out seeking love and approval everywhere I go like I used to. I know someone has my back if something goes really wrong (and he's proven this to me over and over with his actions). I know I can buy my own bike helmet (and have for most of my life), but it's nice that someone cares about my safety other than me. I feel more confident and am less of a perfectionist because I believe that things will work out in the end and I'm not alone in the world if things go wrong. I'm not as clingy because I know he won't abandon me. I don't get stuck in spirals of depression and misery because he breaks me out of them by hugging me or asking how he can help or making me dinner. Etc. It's all really good stuff.
And then, there's this stuff I've written about here that just drives me crazy.
posted by 3491again at 5:51 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hi, I am sorta your boyfriend. Thing is: I'm aware of it, and go out of my way to mitigate. I'm aware that I'm a little spergy, and because of this try to keep it in the conscious part of my mind "oh, I probably shouldn't say that, that would only make someone mad", etc.
So basically, actually acting like that all the time is unacceptable. He needs to realize that and make a conscious effort to constantly not-be-a-dick. He doesn't have to 'change', but he needs to learn the lesson that he can't act like that. You can't necessarily change being an obnoxiously self-centered person, but you can bite your tongue, and act like an adult because you know OTHER PEOPLE and stuff.
That's point numero uno -- and by far, the most important. Numero dos: stand up to him. I married a spirited woman who has no problem telling me "No, fuck you." That's just how we work. It works. If she put up with all my shit, we would have broken up a decade ago.
I don't think you need to DTMFA necessarily, he just needs to grow up, and you can help him but not letting him be self centered. I doubt most other commenters will agree with me, but whatever :) YMMV
posted by wrok at 6:07 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
So basically, actually acting like that all the time is unacceptable. He needs to realize that and make a conscious effort to constantly not-be-a-dick. He doesn't have to 'change', but he needs to learn the lesson that he can't act like that. You can't necessarily change being an obnoxiously self-centered person, but you can bite your tongue, and act like an adult because you know OTHER PEOPLE and stuff.
That's point numero uno -- and by far, the most important. Numero dos: stand up to him. I married a spirited woman who has no problem telling me "No, fuck you." That's just how we work. It works. If she put up with all my shit, we would have broken up a decade ago.
I don't think you need to DTMFA necessarily, he just needs to grow up, and you can help him but not letting him be self centered. I doubt most other commenters will agree with me, but whatever :) YMMV
posted by wrok at 6:07 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
You need to realize that one person cannot undo the horrible abuse you suffered at the hands of your parents, and that you cannot derive all your love and self worth from this one person who is BY DEFAULT unable to give you everything you want and crave.
You think you're getting what you need, but if you were, you wouldn't be asking this exact question over and over. You very clearly have a lot of baggage that you have not dealt with in a NON-ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP environment. You must seek therapy to get past this so you can start to effectively evaluate all the other relationships you have in your life, much less the one you have with your current partner.
Force yourself to seek therapy. Force yourself to move beyond the relationship patterns you are used to and what you think is good enough. And above all else, realize that if you are getting the same response to your question over and over, it likely means you are in denial about the reality of what you are doing and thinking.
If you feel so loved and if he is so wonderful otherwise, why are you unhappy and asking this question again? What will happen if he does decide that he wants to be with someone else some day or if he in his self centered ness decides he wants to indulge only his needs instead of mostly his and some of yours? You have put all your eggs in one basket because you are so desperate to be loved, and I fear that the more you lie to yourself the more devastating it will be if you lose him for one reason or another. It's time to grow up, and it's time to move on from this. Please listen to what you're being told for once and take the advice that's being offered.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
You think you're getting what you need, but if you were, you wouldn't be asking this exact question over and over. You very clearly have a lot of baggage that you have not dealt with in a NON-ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP environment. You must seek therapy to get past this so you can start to effectively evaluate all the other relationships you have in your life, much less the one you have with your current partner.
Force yourself to seek therapy. Force yourself to move beyond the relationship patterns you are used to and what you think is good enough. And above all else, realize that if you are getting the same response to your question over and over, it likely means you are in denial about the reality of what you are doing and thinking.
If you feel so loved and if he is so wonderful otherwise, why are you unhappy and asking this question again? What will happen if he does decide that he wants to be with someone else some day or if he in his self centered ness decides he wants to indulge only his needs instead of mostly his and some of yours? You have put all your eggs in one basket because you are so desperate to be loved, and I fear that the more you lie to yourself the more devastating it will be if you lose him for one reason or another. It's time to grow up, and it's time to move on from this. Please listen to what you're being told for once and take the advice that's being offered.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:18 PM on May 23, 2013 [8 favorites]
If you're like him (or used to be), what has helped you?
Meds. Working out. Embracing ADD things when they are useful me.
But, listen: you keep coming back to the ADHD as the source of his behavior. I really think you are displacing other problems onto this diagnosis.
My partner and I both have ADHD. I can see how we can be hard to deal with, interpersonally: we both are really bad at interrupting people when they're talking. He is never on-time, ever. I try, but I am kind of the worst listener in the world.
Absolutely none of the behaviors you keep posting about are behaviors that exist in our relationship. He is kind and loving and courteous. He respects my wants and needs. I do my best to listen to his wants, and try to attend to them before I get distracted.
The ADHD is not the problem.
But, listen: even if it is, it doesn't mean you guys are still, somehow, beneath the surface, a good fit. Sometimes this is something you have to come to terms with - you can be unhappy and incompatible with a perfectly nice and desirable human being. That is how it is. There are some who could never stand to date me, or even have me as a friend. That's okay; they don't have to force themselves to.
You don't have to keep forcing yourself into staying in this relationship.
posted by vivid postcard at 6:23 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
Meds. Working out. Embracing ADD things when they are useful me.
But, listen: you keep coming back to the ADHD as the source of his behavior. I really think you are displacing other problems onto this diagnosis.
My partner and I both have ADHD. I can see how we can be hard to deal with, interpersonally: we both are really bad at interrupting people when they're talking. He is never on-time, ever. I try, but I am kind of the worst listener in the world.
Absolutely none of the behaviors you keep posting about are behaviors that exist in our relationship. He is kind and loving and courteous. He respects my wants and needs. I do my best to listen to his wants, and try to attend to them before I get distracted.
The ADHD is not the problem.
But, listen: even if it is, it doesn't mean you guys are still, somehow, beneath the surface, a good fit. Sometimes this is something you have to come to terms with - you can be unhappy and incompatible with a perfectly nice and desirable human being. That is how it is. There are some who could never stand to date me, or even have me as a friend. That's okay; they don't have to force themselves to.
You don't have to keep forcing yourself into staying in this relationship.
posted by vivid postcard at 6:23 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: OP, I read your linked comment about why he's a good guy, and let me tell you--that's what any functioning adult relationship should offer, at minimum. I know from personal experience that when you've had some bad experiences, the first person who comes along and makes you feel good gets a free pass for a lot of stuff. For me, it was coming out of a marriage and finding a woman who really made me feel like a person again. Until she didn't, and her narcissism and stubbornness made me go cuckoo. Now I'm with (married to, even) an incredible lady whom I love very much, and I'm so glad to have put my past behind me.
Your question reads like how I felt in that cuckoo relationship--so and so makes me feel so happy, is so this, and so that, and I just have to gloss over the fact that she drives me crazy and is horrible to me and everyone else approximately 17% of the time.
The thing is, though, life's too short for any relationship where you're dealing with the same shit all the time. If you're at the point where you're asking anonymous strangers on the internet about the annoying bullshit he pulls all the time, you're well past the point I would have cut this manchild loose.
It is so, so much better to be alone than to be with a person who throws a hissyfit because he didn't get to watch tv when he was bored.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:26 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
Your question reads like how I felt in that cuckoo relationship--so and so makes me feel so happy, is so this, and so that, and I just have to gloss over the fact that she drives me crazy and is horrible to me and everyone else approximately 17% of the time.
The thing is, though, life's too short for any relationship where you're dealing with the same shit all the time. If you're at the point where you're asking anonymous strangers on the internet about the annoying bullshit he pulls all the time, you're well past the point I would have cut this manchild loose.
It is so, so much better to be alone than to be with a person who throws a hissyfit because he didn't get to watch tv when he was bored.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:26 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
I know I can buy my own bike helmet (and have for most of my life), but it's nice that someone cares about my safety other than me.
Right. But my point is -- and the point that dozens of people are making here, and which you are actively side-stepping -- is that it is entirely possible for you, yes you, to be in a relationship with someone who cares about your safety AND who does not heap the attendant abuse (which is what it is) upon you that you receive from your boyfriend.
The thing is, to find a man such as that, you will have to A) believe you are worth it, and B) let go of the magical thinking whereby you believe you can turn your boyfriend into being that other type of man.
posted by scody at 6:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [11 favorites]
Right. But my point is -- and the point that dozens of people are making here, and which you are actively side-stepping -- is that it is entirely possible for you, yes you, to be in a relationship with someone who cares about your safety AND who does not heap the attendant abuse (which is what it is) upon you that you receive from your boyfriend.
The thing is, to find a man such as that, you will have to A) believe you are worth it, and B) let go of the magical thinking whereby you believe you can turn your boyfriend into being that other type of man.
posted by scody at 6:27 PM on May 23, 2013 [11 favorites]
But my point is -- and the point that dozens of people are making here, and which you are actively side-stepping -- is that it is entirely possible for you, yes you, to be in a relationship with someone who cares about your safety AND who does not heap the attendant abuse (which is what it is) upon you that you receive from your boyfriend.
What she said. His issues will not go away anytime soon -- possibly never. But what can change right this second is that you can decide that you like yourself.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:40 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
What she said. His issues will not go away anytime soon -- possibly never. But what can change right this second is that you can decide that you like yourself.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:40 PM on May 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I feel like you could rephrase this question as I would like to date an asshole. Is that okay? And the answer is I…guess? But why would you want to?
Here are some reasons I have dated assholes: I was really hot for him, and he was hot for me; I was very lonely, and he was around; I was also a complete asshole, and we were the only people who got each other. (Those are just the first three that came to mind.) None of these guys abused me or threatened me or anything that bad, and they weren't rank jerkbags day-in and day-out. Part of me looks fondly on certain aspects of all these relationships. But these guys were careless when it came to my feelings. Our relationships were priorities only when it served their needs. And it became clear that I'd be making excuses for this person's crummy behavior as long as we were together. "No, Jason isn't coming tonight [because he thinks you won't order wine correctly and he doesn't want to 'make a scene' (!!!!)]." "He's just really quiet around new people [even though you guys aren't new; he just doesn't like you]."
The big thing that ties these — and other! — instances together, though, is that I was kinda depressed and messed up and didn't really grasp that I deserved better and that I was capable of better and that I didn't have to be 25 percent miserable in this life. Why did I date assholes? Because I thought that was all there was.
posted by Charity Garfein at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2013 [18 favorites]
Here are some reasons I have dated assholes: I was really hot for him, and he was hot for me; I was very lonely, and he was around; I was also a complete asshole, and we were the only people who got each other. (Those are just the first three that came to mind.) None of these guys abused me or threatened me or anything that bad, and they weren't rank jerkbags day-in and day-out. Part of me looks fondly on certain aspects of all these relationships. But these guys were careless when it came to my feelings. Our relationships were priorities only when it served their needs. And it became clear that I'd be making excuses for this person's crummy behavior as long as we were together. "No, Jason isn't coming tonight [because he thinks you won't order wine correctly and he doesn't want to 'make a scene' (!!!!)]." "He's just really quiet around new people [even though you guys aren't new; he just doesn't like you]."
The big thing that ties these — and other! — instances together, though, is that I was kinda depressed and messed up and didn't really grasp that I deserved better and that I was capable of better and that I didn't have to be 25 percent miserable in this life. Why did I date assholes? Because I thought that was all there was.
posted by Charity Garfein at 6:41 PM on May 23, 2013 [18 favorites]
Looking at the situation slightly differently - part of what it sounds like is going on is your DYNAMIC. there's his actions, and there's your actions, and there's how they play out together.
The thing about relationship dynamics is that BOTH people play into them. If you decide to stay in this relationship, it shouldn't be because "he might change" but because "i will change the way i deal with his stuff, which will shift the way we interact." he's not that interested in changing his behaviour or else HE would be desperately posting on askme for help in becoming a good guy.
it sounds like you're willing to put up with his crap, even when you don't like to, because it just feels good to be loved. hey, i get that. but it also sends the message that "this crappy thing you're doing to me is okay." this is no good, and you resent it, and yourself, and THAT is the bad feeling that makes you want to leave the relationship.
so what can you do to shift the dynamic? You might want to put up with a bit less of his BS. Go out dancing with your friends. Eat the foods you like (if the dude is hungry, he can have some almonds before dinner). Pick the movie. It will rock the boat, which you won't like, because it's scary for people whose family was bad to them to defend yourself. but you can do this, in fact, it's kind of vital to your relationship for you to do this.
just another data point: i never, ever think about breaking up with my boyfriend. we're a good fit and we like hanging out together, and we treat each other well. things that should annoy me about him, i find adorable. you can have this too.
posted by andreapandrea at 7:05 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
The thing about relationship dynamics is that BOTH people play into them. If you decide to stay in this relationship, it shouldn't be because "he might change" but because "i will change the way i deal with his stuff, which will shift the way we interact." he's not that interested in changing his behaviour or else HE would be desperately posting on askme for help in becoming a good guy.
it sounds like you're willing to put up with his crap, even when you don't like to, because it just feels good to be loved. hey, i get that. but it also sends the message that "this crappy thing you're doing to me is okay." this is no good, and you resent it, and yourself, and THAT is the bad feeling that makes you want to leave the relationship.
so what can you do to shift the dynamic? You might want to put up with a bit less of his BS. Go out dancing with your friends. Eat the foods you like (if the dude is hungry, he can have some almonds before dinner). Pick the movie. It will rock the boat, which you won't like, because it's scary for people whose family was bad to them to defend yourself. but you can do this, in fact, it's kind of vital to your relationship for you to do this.
just another data point: i never, ever think about breaking up with my boyfriend. we're a good fit and we like hanging out together, and we treat each other well. things that should annoy me about him, i find adorable. you can have this too.
posted by andreapandrea at 7:05 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
So, just to clarify: your partner is loving, generous, thoughtful, physically and vocally expressive, and genuinely committed enough to the success and longevity of your relationship to consider and openly discuss pathways to self-improvement with you? You're in love in with him, and he too is in love with you. Conversely, he's (dare I say it?)...very human insofar as he exhibits some character/behavioural flaws which annoy, frustrate and inconvenience you. Is this an accurate assessment of your terrible dilemma?
I read a few responses before my eyes glazed over. It appears the general consensus is you deserve, "better" and you're essentially masochistic because you refuse to (insert angelic singing)...See The Light and kick his worthless arse to the kerb. Obviously, I don't know you - but I would suggest (shock, horror!) you too possess a dizzying array of character/behavioural flaws which annoy, frustrate, and inconvenience him...and will annoy, frustrate, and inconvenience your next partner should you kick your current partners worthless arse to the kerb. I say this because I can only assume you're a relatively, "normal" human being, and every relatively, "normal" human being on the face of this Earth exhibits negative behavioural/character traits which annoy, frustrate, and inconvenience others.
Now, as to your deserving, "better" and consequently finding someone, "worthy" of the wonder of perfection which is apparently you - well, I suppose you may find Prince Charming one day and ride off into the sunset on his beautiful white stallion to live a life of happiness...untainted by the annoyances, frustrations, and inconveniences of reality, but I doubt it.
And speaking of reality - for numerous reasons, we've become a society of individuals dripping with self-entitlement...we cheerfully discard anything which doesn't make us happy every moment of the day. We, "deserve" unbridled happiness. Just the mere fact we exist means we, "deserve" everything our fragile little hearts desire without having to make compromises or sacrifices...why should we be patient and tolerant with and of others? We deserve...we deserve. The reality is, successful and enduring relationships require compromise, sacrifice, patience, and tolerance. In addition to the laughter and joy, you will experience unhappiness. You will experience disappointment. You will experience annoyance, frustration, and you will be inconvenienced.
Ultimately, if this is unacceptable to you...or anyone else...throw away your dance cards now - because, in reality, no man or woman will ever be capable of giving you all you, "deserve".
posted by Nibiru at 7:40 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
I read a few responses before my eyes glazed over. It appears the general consensus is you deserve, "better" and you're essentially masochistic because you refuse to (insert angelic singing)...See The Light and kick his worthless arse to the kerb. Obviously, I don't know you - but I would suggest (shock, horror!) you too possess a dizzying array of character/behavioural flaws which annoy, frustrate, and inconvenience him...and will annoy, frustrate, and inconvenience your next partner should you kick your current partners worthless arse to the kerb. I say this because I can only assume you're a relatively, "normal" human being, and every relatively, "normal" human being on the face of this Earth exhibits negative behavioural/character traits which annoy, frustrate, and inconvenience others.
Now, as to your deserving, "better" and consequently finding someone, "worthy" of the wonder of perfection which is apparently you - well, I suppose you may find Prince Charming one day and ride off into the sunset on his beautiful white stallion to live a life of happiness...untainted by the annoyances, frustrations, and inconveniences of reality, but I doubt it.
And speaking of reality - for numerous reasons, we've become a society of individuals dripping with self-entitlement...we cheerfully discard anything which doesn't make us happy every moment of the day. We, "deserve" unbridled happiness. Just the mere fact we exist means we, "deserve" everything our fragile little hearts desire without having to make compromises or sacrifices...why should we be patient and tolerant with and of others? We deserve...we deserve. The reality is, successful and enduring relationships require compromise, sacrifice, patience, and tolerance. In addition to the laughter and joy, you will experience unhappiness. You will experience disappointment. You will experience annoyance, frustration, and you will be inconvenienced.
Ultimately, if this is unacceptable to you...or anyone else...throw away your dance cards now - because, in reality, no man or woman will ever be capable of giving you all you, "deserve".
posted by Nibiru at 7:40 PM on May 23, 2013 [5 favorites]
The biggest piece of advice I have here is to focus on changing your behavior, not his. You can't force someone else to change - they have to want to do it and work on it themselves. But, that doesn't mean you have to just put up with their bullshit, either! A few examples based on the stuff you have up there.
* Make plans with your friends when you want to! Don't decide based on him. If he gets pouty, cut off the conversation and do not engage. Yep, that will be hard! But have a little script for yourself: "I'm hanging out with Julia and Jen tonight to see the new Twilight movie. I'll see you on Friday! Gotta go." Don't apologize. Just lay the facts out there, and then if he's not interested in hearing it, end the conversation by walking away, hanging up, etc. It's not a negotiation, so don't treat it like one. You don't have to bargain with someone to make plans. If he gets upset, that's on him to deal with, not on you to manage.
* After you watch one of 'his' programs, say, "That was great! My turn...let's see, I'm going to watch Revenge. Do you want to stick around or would you rather do your own thing?" Again, don't engage in a discussion over it. If he whines, give him one chance by saying "Hey, we just spent an hour watching something you chose - it's my turn now!" If that doesn't do it, leave, go home, and watch what you want to there. (Not clear if you live together - if you do, then say go in another room and close the door, or go hang out at a friend's place.)
* You guys start into one of these hour long arguments. Just don't. Say "You know, I'm really not interested in arguing right now, I think I'm just going to head out and get a cup of coffee on my own. Bye!"
Basically, I would stop looking at things as if you have to do everything as a couple. Most couples have some friends they don't both hang out with, and lots of activities that only one of the pair does. You'll never catch my boyfriend watching TLC reality shows with me, but you also won't catch him complaining that I'm hanging out with my best friend to do it. He doesn't like do dance, but isn't going to complain if I go out dancing with girlfriends. And if he did complain, I would immediately call him on it - like, "Yeah, sorry, you don't get a veto on how I spend my Saturday nights for the rest of my life." Start setting some boundaries with him and making it clear that this type of controlling behavior is not going to continue. His reaction to this, I think, will make it perfectly clear whether this is a solvable situation or a DTMFA situation.
And don't continue to try and manage his emotions and reactions to everything. That's his job. You should not need to walk on eggshells around him. If he gets hungry, he can eat without your intervention. If he's rude to your friend, ask him to leave and get a hotel room elsewhere. If he's upset you're not immediately available to hang out, he really and truly can deal with that emotion without you being there. It's not easy to let go of this, but I think you need to let go of constantly trying to make this dude happy if you have a chance of making things work here. Make YOURSELF happy, with your own actions that you can control.
Note: If doing any of the above makes you worried about a violent reaction, obviously you need to protect your safety first. If you have any concern that starting to assert your own preferences and boundaries will spark a violent reaction, that's all you need to know: get out of the relationship as soon as you safely can, and have a plan in place of where to go, etc.
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:47 PM on May 23, 2013 [10 favorites]
* Make plans with your friends when you want to! Don't decide based on him. If he gets pouty, cut off the conversation and do not engage. Yep, that will be hard! But have a little script for yourself: "I'm hanging out with Julia and Jen tonight to see the new Twilight movie. I'll see you on Friday! Gotta go." Don't apologize. Just lay the facts out there, and then if he's not interested in hearing it, end the conversation by walking away, hanging up, etc. It's not a negotiation, so don't treat it like one. You don't have to bargain with someone to make plans. If he gets upset, that's on him to deal with, not on you to manage.
* After you watch one of 'his' programs, say, "That was great! My turn...let's see, I'm going to watch Revenge. Do you want to stick around or would you rather do your own thing?" Again, don't engage in a discussion over it. If he whines, give him one chance by saying "Hey, we just spent an hour watching something you chose - it's my turn now!" If that doesn't do it, leave, go home, and watch what you want to there. (Not clear if you live together - if you do, then say go in another room and close the door, or go hang out at a friend's place.)
* You guys start into one of these hour long arguments. Just don't. Say "You know, I'm really not interested in arguing right now, I think I'm just going to head out and get a cup of coffee on my own. Bye!"
Basically, I would stop looking at things as if you have to do everything as a couple. Most couples have some friends they don't both hang out with, and lots of activities that only one of the pair does. You'll never catch my boyfriend watching TLC reality shows with me, but you also won't catch him complaining that I'm hanging out with my best friend to do it. He doesn't like do dance, but isn't going to complain if I go out dancing with girlfriends. And if he did complain, I would immediately call him on it - like, "Yeah, sorry, you don't get a veto on how I spend my Saturday nights for the rest of my life." Start setting some boundaries with him and making it clear that this type of controlling behavior is not going to continue. His reaction to this, I think, will make it perfectly clear whether this is a solvable situation or a DTMFA situation.
And don't continue to try and manage his emotions and reactions to everything. That's his job. You should not need to walk on eggshells around him. If he gets hungry, he can eat without your intervention. If he's rude to your friend, ask him to leave and get a hotel room elsewhere. If he's upset you're not immediately available to hang out, he really and truly can deal with that emotion without you being there. It's not easy to let go of this, but I think you need to let go of constantly trying to make this dude happy if you have a chance of making things work here. Make YOURSELF happy, with your own actions that you can control.
Note: If doing any of the above makes you worried about a violent reaction, obviously you need to protect your safety first. If you have any concern that starting to assert your own preferences and boundaries will spark a violent reaction, that's all you need to know: get out of the relationship as soon as you safely can, and have a plan in place of where to go, etc.
posted by rainbowbrite at 7:47 PM on May 23, 2013 [10 favorites]
Your last follow up makes me sad because you list all these traits about him that should be the standard for any decent relationship (he's there for you in an emergency, he's not going to abandon you, he cares about you, he tries to cheer you up when you're miserable) - and this is your rationale for dealing with all sorts of minor league jerkiness.
Yes, if he didn't try to help you when you were miserable, or bailed on you in an emergency, that would be horrible and definitely worth running away and never looking back. I just want you to realize that things like ignoring you, fighting with you for an hour over something minor, or being an ass to your friends... those things might not win him the Worst Boyfriend of All Time award, but still.... I wish you'd set your bar a little higher than that.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:03 PM on May 23, 2013 [13 favorites]
Yes, if he didn't try to help you when you were miserable, or bailed on you in an emergency, that would be horrible and definitely worth running away and never looking back. I just want you to realize that things like ignoring you, fighting with you for an hour over something minor, or being an ass to your friends... those things might not win him the Worst Boyfriend of All Time award, but still.... I wish you'd set your bar a little higher than that.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:03 PM on May 23, 2013 [13 favorites]
He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it. and that entire bullet point
People like this don't really change on any timescale that matters to you at all. Like, they might change, but it will be glacially and over the space of years. I have yet to meet anyone like this who ever changed a very meaningful amount. What you describe is borderline narcissistic to me.
The problem here is that these people, when made to compromise or do something they don't want to do, always seem to come off as sulking children forced to wash the toilet or whatever. Even if they hide it, that type of person just radiates that attitude.
At best, you'll end up in some kind of tit for tat "well i did two things you wanted, so now you should do two things i wanted" sort of arrangement which also sucks. Some people are happy and fine with transactional stuff like that, but honestly to me(and many people i've talked to) it just seems to take the spontaneity and fun out of most like, you know, normal adult relationships.
Relationships like this always sound like the person making the concessions is essentially having to manage the other person. It's almost parenting. What fucking fun is in that?
also this
When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. He has to be right. He explains that it was because he was (tired, hungry, feeling sick, depressed, etc.) instead of just saying, "Yeah, I should have been less defensive." This means that arguments can take an hour that could just take 5 minutes.
kinda ties in to the above, like, a lot. Those two things together paint a picture of someone who has serious issues connecting with another person as like, an independent person with wants and needs just as important as their own. The kind of person who goes through life like they're playing a single player game.
Everything else fits in t o that frame of mind too. If you look at it through that lens, it all instantly clicks in to place.
I've kicked friends, or even just acquaintances out of my life for having these kinds of attitudes. I bet your friends talk about what an arse this guy is when you're not around after witnessing some mini-meltdown over what movie to watch or something.
There are definitely not separate things, they're all part of one basic approach to life that's pretty much "me me me me me me", and with the friend thing, a bit childish in that "if i don't like someone why should you? or anyone?" kinda approach.
On preview, treehorn+bunny basically nails what my conclusion was going to be. This guy barely scrapes by to clear the "Meets minimum standards of human decency" hurdle, and is a tiresome moderate ass in other areas.
This just seems like a really mediocre way to live your life, idk.
But... I keep thinking about it, and my life is just BETTER with him in it. I am genuinely happier. I feel safe and secure in ways I never thought possible. I have become more feminist. I feel more empowered. I do better work. I am less stressed out. Also, I love him (of course).
I, myself have grown substantially in good, or somewhat good relationships with cringeworthy people who were mean, embarassing in public and drove away friends, or just had issues. I can't look back on a single relationship i've had(whether dating in some form, or "what exactly are we doing what is this weird thing?" or even just "let's fuck a few times and chat afterwards!") that i didn't feel like i grew significantly from in retrospect. I've been in the midst of some of those relationships and thought "Wow, you know i really feel good right now". That also didn't cancel out the issues. Having someone to just bounce your mind off in this context will help you blossom as a person unless it's a HORRIBLY negative relationship(and even then sometimes! see some of the responses above about abusive relationships). This doesn't make it a good relationship. Conflating the two is like saying mcdonalds is good food because you were hungry and now you're full, and er, "satisfied". I have some good memories of eating terrible fast food that was fulfilling on road trips, after spending hours at an arcade and smoking a joint, when it was the only thing open at 3am... but it's still fast food, and while it might be an amusing good memory and a positive experience in my mind, it was what it was and it still had some serious negative sides. You get what i'm saying here? Problematic things can still be enjoyable and fulfilling, but those are nothing but excuses when it comes to trying to justify their problems.
As a side note, i myself am non-neurotypical and have struggled with being this guy. As i grew up, i realized what an ass i had been/was currently being/etc more and more as i grew in to being a somewhat self actualized human being. I just cringe when i see people older than like, end of undergrad in college who are still deeply the way i was at like 16. It's just a really unhealthy way to approach life.
posted by emptythought at 8:16 PM on May 23, 2013 [11 favorites]
People like this don't really change on any timescale that matters to you at all. Like, they might change, but it will be glacially and over the space of years. I have yet to meet anyone like this who ever changed a very meaningful amount. What you describe is borderline narcissistic to me.
The problem here is that these people, when made to compromise or do something they don't want to do, always seem to come off as sulking children forced to wash the toilet or whatever. Even if they hide it, that type of person just radiates that attitude.
At best, you'll end up in some kind of tit for tat "well i did two things you wanted, so now you should do two things i wanted" sort of arrangement which also sucks. Some people are happy and fine with transactional stuff like that, but honestly to me(and many people i've talked to) it just seems to take the spontaneity and fun out of most like, you know, normal adult relationships.
Relationships like this always sound like the person making the concessions is essentially having to manage the other person. It's almost parenting. What fucking fun is in that?
also this
When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. He has to be right. He explains that it was because he was (tired, hungry, feeling sick, depressed, etc.) instead of just saying, "Yeah, I should have been less defensive." This means that arguments can take an hour that could just take 5 minutes.
kinda ties in to the above, like, a lot. Those two things together paint a picture of someone who has serious issues connecting with another person as like, an independent person with wants and needs just as important as their own. The kind of person who goes through life like they're playing a single player game.
Everything else fits in t o that frame of mind too. If you look at it through that lens, it all instantly clicks in to place.
I've kicked friends, or even just acquaintances out of my life for having these kinds of attitudes. I bet your friends talk about what an arse this guy is when you're not around after witnessing some mini-meltdown over what movie to watch or something.
There are definitely not separate things, they're all part of one basic approach to life that's pretty much "me me me me me me", and with the friend thing, a bit childish in that "if i don't like someone why should you? or anyone?" kinda approach.
On preview, treehorn+bunny basically nails what my conclusion was going to be. This guy barely scrapes by to clear the "Meets minimum standards of human decency" hurdle, and is a tiresome moderate ass in other areas.
This just seems like a really mediocre way to live your life, idk.
But... I keep thinking about it, and my life is just BETTER with him in it. I am genuinely happier. I feel safe and secure in ways I never thought possible. I have become more feminist. I feel more empowered. I do better work. I am less stressed out. Also, I love him (of course).
I, myself have grown substantially in good, or somewhat good relationships with cringeworthy people who were mean, embarassing in public and drove away friends, or just had issues. I can't look back on a single relationship i've had(whether dating in some form, or "what exactly are we doing what is this weird thing?" or even just "let's fuck a few times and chat afterwards!") that i didn't feel like i grew significantly from in retrospect. I've been in the midst of some of those relationships and thought "Wow, you know i really feel good right now". That also didn't cancel out the issues. Having someone to just bounce your mind off in this context will help you blossom as a person unless it's a HORRIBLY negative relationship(and even then sometimes! see some of the responses above about abusive relationships). This doesn't make it a good relationship. Conflating the two is like saying mcdonalds is good food because you were hungry and now you're full, and er, "satisfied". I have some good memories of eating terrible fast food that was fulfilling on road trips, after spending hours at an arcade and smoking a joint, when it was the only thing open at 3am... but it's still fast food, and while it might be an amusing good memory and a positive experience in my mind, it was what it was and it still had some serious negative sides. You get what i'm saying here? Problematic things can still be enjoyable and fulfilling, but those are nothing but excuses when it comes to trying to justify their problems.
As a side note, i myself am non-neurotypical and have struggled with being this guy. As i grew up, i realized what an ass i had been/was currently being/etc more and more as i grew in to being a somewhat self actualized human being. I just cringe when i see people older than like, end of undergrad in college who are still deeply the way i was at like 16. It's just a really unhealthy way to approach life.
posted by emptythought at 8:16 PM on May 23, 2013 [11 favorites]
Have you actually tried asking him if he can explain why he acts the way he does? You brought up his ADHD and learning disabilities, but most of the things you mentioned aren't symptom of either of those things. So why is he like that? Does he have a rationale for these behaviors? Is he aware of how much these things hurt you?
posted by wondermouse at 8:23 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by wondermouse at 8:23 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
DarlingBri is right: the great things about your boyfriend, the things you love so much, are true of any good relationship with anyone.
i think this is some misleading advice in this thread. just because you should expect that in any good relationship, doesn't mean you can have that kind of relationship with anyone, or that there exist people who will be able to give you those things who will want those same things from you. as an analogy: i have a car, and it gets me where i need to go. it's not perfect, but i put up with the imperfections, because i can't afford a better one. so, to tell me i should sell it for a perfect car, and do without a car until i find the perfect one is ... misguided.
anyway, back to the specifics of your situation: i don't think you can change him doing what you're doing now. to give him an incentive to change you have to make him realize there is a credible possibility that you will leave if he doesn't compromise.
reading your list of issues made me think: why don't you go dancing with someone else? watch romantic movies with someone else? if he's hungry and you're not he can make his own food, and you'll eat something later. if you want to watch a romantic comedy, but he wants to watch his sci-fi thing he can watch it in the other room. or watch it when you're not there. you can do things even if he doesn't want to.
posted by cupcake1337 at 8:23 PM on May 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
So you wrote this about 10 months ago.
I have a lot of issues with my boyfriend -- he's a wonderful guy but I always wind up feeling put down, or put upon, or not getting my needs met. Our communication sucks and I don't know how to fix it.
He just doesn't seem to hear me unless I get upset, which I hate to do.
For example, I want to go out to events with him. He has refused to go, stood me up, panicked and had to leave... he says he won't make plans, doesn't like crowds, is a homebody. Yet, he is traveling in a far-off country right now with a friend/work colleague of his and they are going out to see the sights. (He works with some very good friends so he has extended the work trip from a few days to two weeks.)
Things seem to work best when I get more confrontational than I would like. He planned the trip with me when I got upset and asked him why he never goes out with me yet will travel with his friend/work colleague. He went to one event with me (finally) when I got upset and said that I was going to go with someone else unless he came with me.
And 10 months later you describe a person who acts like a 10 year old.
It's time to move on. You will find someone much better where you feel both loved and they're not acting terribly.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:00 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
I have a lot of issues with my boyfriend -- he's a wonderful guy but I always wind up feeling put down, or put upon, or not getting my needs met. Our communication sucks and I don't know how to fix it.
He just doesn't seem to hear me unless I get upset, which I hate to do.
For example, I want to go out to events with him. He has refused to go, stood me up, panicked and had to leave... he says he won't make plans, doesn't like crowds, is a homebody. Yet, he is traveling in a far-off country right now with a friend/work colleague of his and they are going out to see the sights. (He works with some very good friends so he has extended the work trip from a few days to two weeks.)
Things seem to work best when I get more confrontational than I would like. He planned the trip with me when I got upset and asked him why he never goes out with me yet will travel with his friend/work colleague. He went to one event with me (finally) when I got upset and said that I was going to go with someone else unless he came with me.
And 10 months later you describe a person who acts like a 10 year old.
It's time to move on. You will find someone much better where you feel both loved and they're not acting terribly.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:00 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
I was with someone, (I have commented in other threads about him, sorry if you may have read it) for 2 years. He was selfish. He put his friends, hobbies, time, anything - before me. He was neglectful. He didn't do the exact things that your boyfriend does, but it was similar behavior. (Acting like a child.)
I tried to change him. I wrote endless letters, cried my eyes out, begged and pleaded. He didn't change. He would say he wanted to. He would break down when I threatened to leave. He begged for counseling when I took my engagement ring off and ended it. As far as I know, FOUR years later, he is still the same person.
Why I didn't leave:
1) He LOVED ME oh so much! - or so I thought. I probably said the same thing you are saying now - "that he was my frist real love, you just don't understand him, he can be so sweet!". This was part of his manipulation. This guy is getting away with this behavior, by making up for it through flattering and "love". He knows it's not okay. He knows you don't like it, so he covers it up by making sure your are safe, and complimenting you.
My ex told me he wanted to marry me, and would talk about this dream life of ours together, all while he was neglecting me and treating me like shit. This is a facade to keep you happy and to get what he wants, without having to change.
2) I was afraid to be alone. I didn't know how to function without him. I had been with him since I was 17. I moved 5 hours away to college to be with him. I knew NO ONE on campus. I didn't have my own car. I thought that I was happy being with someone and couldn't be happy alone.
What I realized after I left:
1) This is what freedom feels like. This is what it feels like to be happy again and not worrying about someone or being disappointed or embarrassed by their behavior.
2) If he really did care for me, he wouldn't have acted that way. It was a manipulation.
3) Real love shouldn't feel like that.
After meeting my husband: How could I ever have thought that was "true love"? True love compromises, it doesn't manipulate, it is respectful. Your relationship does not have this.
Move on.
posted by Crystalinne at 10:51 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
I tried to change him. I wrote endless letters, cried my eyes out, begged and pleaded. He didn't change. He would say he wanted to. He would break down when I threatened to leave. He begged for counseling when I took my engagement ring off and ended it. As far as I know, FOUR years later, he is still the same person.
Why I didn't leave:
1) He LOVED ME oh so much! - or so I thought. I probably said the same thing you are saying now - "that he was my frist real love, you just don't understand him, he can be so sweet!". This was part of his manipulation. This guy is getting away with this behavior, by making up for it through flattering and "love". He knows it's not okay. He knows you don't like it, so he covers it up by making sure your are safe, and complimenting you.
My ex told me he wanted to marry me, and would talk about this dream life of ours together, all while he was neglecting me and treating me like shit. This is a facade to keep you happy and to get what he wants, without having to change.
2) I was afraid to be alone. I didn't know how to function without him. I had been with him since I was 17. I moved 5 hours away to college to be with him. I knew NO ONE on campus. I didn't have my own car. I thought that I was happy being with someone and couldn't be happy alone.
What I realized after I left:
1) This is what freedom feels like. This is what it feels like to be happy again and not worrying about someone or being disappointed or embarrassed by their behavior.
2) If he really did care for me, he wouldn't have acted that way. It was a manipulation.
3) Real love shouldn't feel like that.
After meeting my husband: How could I ever have thought that was "true love"? True love compromises, it doesn't manipulate, it is respectful. Your relationship does not have this.
Move on.
posted by Crystalinne at 10:51 PM on May 23, 2013 [7 favorites]
Your boyfriend isn't non-neurotypical, he's a jerk. You should date a guy who is not a jerk.
posted by empath at 10:57 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by empath at 10:57 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
(This is in contrast to my parents who refused to get me eyeglasses, for example, because they were angry with me. Or who let a wound that needed stitches get infected because I didn't ask them the right way to take me to the doctor.)
Oh. Well, there you go. That's the truth, right there. This is the only statement in all the justifications and explanations and questioning that you actually need. Do you realize now what you wrote here?
The one thing I learned from dating men just like your boyfriend is this:
when you're smashing your head into a wall and asking the same question a thousand times, it's because you know something is true, and you're trying to find the secret trick to make it untrue.
The truth is this: You might been buying your own bike helmet, figuratively speaking, for most of your life. But you never wanted to, you feel it's unjust that you ever had to (and you're right, it is unjust). You're searching for the missing parent, the loving and devoted one you never had, the one who will finally buy you a bike helmet and raise you right and take you to the doctor and erase and obliterate all the pain and abuse you have inside.
But that loving and devoted parent is you, sweetheart. Not your boyfriend, not any boyfriend you will ever have. It is horrible, and sad, but true: You will always, always have to buy your own symbolic bike helmet. So does everyone, at some point in their lives. Lucky folks with good parents just get a little bit of a kick-start when they're small. You didn't get the kick-start, so you have been going it alone longer, and you're tired. I understand. But you won't find a love that fixes what your parents broke. You have to make it out of your own brain and heart.
What you WILL find one day is a person who makes that sad truth okay, and easy to face. A person who does not drain you, who doesn't keep you chasing the fundamental approval you are missing.
This boy you're with, he isn't that person. His broken just fits your broken in a way that hurts like you're used to hurting. That's why it feels okay.
posted by like_a_friend at 11:00 PM on May 23, 2013 [56 favorites]
Oh. Well, there you go. That's the truth, right there. This is the only statement in all the justifications and explanations and questioning that you actually need. Do you realize now what you wrote here?
The one thing I learned from dating men just like your boyfriend is this:
when you're smashing your head into a wall and asking the same question a thousand times, it's because you know something is true, and you're trying to find the secret trick to make it untrue.
The truth is this: You might been buying your own bike helmet, figuratively speaking, for most of your life. But you never wanted to, you feel it's unjust that you ever had to (and you're right, it is unjust). You're searching for the missing parent, the loving and devoted one you never had, the one who will finally buy you a bike helmet and raise you right and take you to the doctor and erase and obliterate all the pain and abuse you have inside.
But that loving and devoted parent is you, sweetheart. Not your boyfriend, not any boyfriend you will ever have. It is horrible, and sad, but true: You will always, always have to buy your own symbolic bike helmet. So does everyone, at some point in their lives. Lucky folks with good parents just get a little bit of a kick-start when they're small. You didn't get the kick-start, so you have been going it alone longer, and you're tired. I understand. But you won't find a love that fixes what your parents broke. You have to make it out of your own brain and heart.
What you WILL find one day is a person who makes that sad truth okay, and easy to face. A person who does not drain you, who doesn't keep you chasing the fundamental approval you are missing.
This boy you're with, he isn't that person. His broken just fits your broken in a way that hurts like you're used to hurting. That's why it feels okay.
posted by like_a_friend at 11:00 PM on May 23, 2013 [56 favorites]
So there's a theory, to which I ascribe, that the only people who owe you unconditional love are your parents, and your deity/deities. The entire idea of "I will love you and support you no matter what" is a hierarchical one-down system.
The offshoot of this idea is, unconditional love is not appropriate between romantic life partners. There should always be a deal-breaker, which would most likely be physical or emotional abuse, but could be anything short of that. But fully functional adults should never think that they need to support and stay with their partner no matter how awful that partner is.
I think that somewhere along the line you got the message that being an emotionally mature adult meant that that you had to stay with your partner no matter how awful your partner is. I'm not judging you negatively for that; I received similar messages and stayed in similarly shitty relationships, because I thought the "adult" thing to do was to compromise and ignore my needs and pretend that I had previously been too picky and that this relationship was a growth experience.
What I have come to understand is that one should partner with someone who is an actual partner, who is emotionally and intellectually on my level. This works with what scody said above, and (on her previous advice) I've read How To Be an Adult in Relationships and I thoroughly second her recommendation. There is an immense difference between people who claim to be open to (other people doing the work to research what they need) to change, and people who actively do the work to change, and I think both scody and the author of the book can help you separate out those two categories.
posted by jaguar at 11:33 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
The offshoot of this idea is, unconditional love is not appropriate between romantic life partners. There should always be a deal-breaker, which would most likely be physical or emotional abuse, but could be anything short of that. But fully functional adults should never think that they need to support and stay with their partner no matter how awful that partner is.
I think that somewhere along the line you got the message that being an emotionally mature adult meant that that you had to stay with your partner no matter how awful your partner is. I'm not judging you negatively for that; I received similar messages and stayed in similarly shitty relationships, because I thought the "adult" thing to do was to compromise and ignore my needs and pretend that I had previously been too picky and that this relationship was a growth experience.
What I have come to understand is that one should partner with someone who is an actual partner, who is emotionally and intellectually on my level. This works with what scody said above, and (on her previous advice) I've read How To Be an Adult in Relationships and I thoroughly second her recommendation. There is an immense difference between people who claim to be open to (other people doing the work to research what they need) to change, and people who actively do the work to change, and I think both scody and the author of the book can help you separate out those two categories.
posted by jaguar at 11:33 PM on May 23, 2013 [6 favorites]
Don't think about whether this is the person you want. Ask yourself whether this is the relationship you want.
It's hard to leave a person you think is "a good guy." I know from my experience ending a 9-year marriage to a good guy. But you already know this is not the relationship you want, or you wouldn't ask the same questions about how to change it time after time.
You have a picture of what you want from this relationship--and you are WELL JUSTIFIED in wanting all of it and more. Your standards are too low, not too high. He has shown time and again through both words and action he does not share your relationship vision.
There is no foul in leaving a bad relationship with a good man. This is a bad relationship by your standards. (It's atrocious by mine.) Forget about whether or not you can change this man. (You can't.) What you need to asses is whether or not this relationship meets your needs. I think you have multiple AskMe questions over a period of time as evidence that it most clearly does not.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:51 AM on May 24, 2013 [6 favorites]
It's hard to leave a person you think is "a good guy." I know from my experience ending a 9-year marriage to a good guy. But you already know this is not the relationship you want, or you wouldn't ask the same questions about how to change it time after time.
You have a picture of what you want from this relationship--and you are WELL JUSTIFIED in wanting all of it and more. Your standards are too low, not too high. He has shown time and again through both words and action he does not share your relationship vision.
There is no foul in leaving a bad relationship with a good man. This is a bad relationship by your standards. (It's atrocious by mine.) Forget about whether or not you can change this man. (You can't.) What you need to asses is whether or not this relationship meets your needs. I think you have multiple AskMe questions over a period of time as evidence that it most clearly does not.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:51 AM on May 24, 2013 [6 favorites]
every few months this really bothers me and I consider breaking up and then I think about all of the things I like and I don't.
This is not the mark of a healthy, happy relationship. Seriously, you need to understand this. A healthy relationship isn't one where every 3 months all the poor treatment and bullshit you've been trying to ignore overwhelms you and you start looking for a way out. I beg you to take some time to think hard about that. Every couple of months you seriously want to end it, and it for reasons you know are valid (or else you woudln't be asking here all the time about how to make him stop behaving that way). You're having such a hard time with this because you KNOW this isn't good. You KNOW the way he is behaving isn't acceptable. If there was just one of his less-appealing traits in an otherwise good relationship people would probably have a different answer for you, but this guy has a shopping list the length of your arm of things that aren't okay.
For what it is worth, I have been with my partner for almost two years. Not ONCE have I ever considered breaking up, even during/after some of our bad arguments. I have had zero second thoughts, I am positive that he is the man I want to spend my life with.
cupcake1337: as an analogy: i have a car, and it gets me where i need to go. it's not perfect, but i put up with the imperfections, because i can't afford a better one. so, to tell me i should sell it for a perfect car, and do without a car until i find the perfect one is ... misguided.
So you're saying that people should stay in toxic realtionships until they have a better relationship lined up? You're making it sound like being in a relationship is a necessity, up there with a roof over your head and clean water, when that isn't true. People do not to be in a relationship to be happy. To use your analogy, she can live without a car, there is a fantastic mass transit system, she is within walking distance to her job, and her car actually ISN'T getting her to where she needs to go. It is actually breaking down in the middle of the highway all the time, and she is spending a fortune on constant repairs. I would argue she can't afford to keep this car, because the money she is spending on repairs is bleeding her dry. Getting rid of her car now would actually allow her to save up all that money she is spending on repairs and tow trucks so that later on she'll be able to buy a car that works and is reliable.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:30 AM on May 24, 2013 [17 favorites]
This is not the mark of a healthy, happy relationship. Seriously, you need to understand this. A healthy relationship isn't one where every 3 months all the poor treatment and bullshit you've been trying to ignore overwhelms you and you start looking for a way out. I beg you to take some time to think hard about that. Every couple of months you seriously want to end it, and it for reasons you know are valid (or else you woudln't be asking here all the time about how to make him stop behaving that way). You're having such a hard time with this because you KNOW this isn't good. You KNOW the way he is behaving isn't acceptable. If there was just one of his less-appealing traits in an otherwise good relationship people would probably have a different answer for you, but this guy has a shopping list the length of your arm of things that aren't okay.
For what it is worth, I have been with my partner for almost two years. Not ONCE have I ever considered breaking up, even during/after some of our bad arguments. I have had zero second thoughts, I am positive that he is the man I want to spend my life with.
cupcake1337: as an analogy: i have a car, and it gets me where i need to go. it's not perfect, but i put up with the imperfections, because i can't afford a better one. so, to tell me i should sell it for a perfect car, and do without a car until i find the perfect one is ... misguided.
So you're saying that people should stay in toxic realtionships until they have a better relationship lined up? You're making it sound like being in a relationship is a necessity, up there with a roof over your head and clean water, when that isn't true. People do not to be in a relationship to be happy. To use your analogy, she can live without a car, there is a fantastic mass transit system, she is within walking distance to her job, and her car actually ISN'T getting her to where she needs to go. It is actually breaking down in the middle of the highway all the time, and she is spending a fortune on constant repairs. I would argue she can't afford to keep this car, because the money she is spending on repairs is bleeding her dry. Getting rid of her car now would actually allow her to save up all that money she is spending on repairs and tow trucks so that later on she'll be able to buy a car that works and is reliable.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:30 AM on May 24, 2013 [17 favorites]
3491again, I sincerely hope that you walk away from these answers with the understanding that people here are trying to help you.
It seems like you have been and are continuing to look for AskMeFi to say that what's ongoing is acceptable and fine, and time and time again you're not getting that answer.
At the very least, please see someone to talk through the issue of why you're turning repeatedly to us to put a seal of approval on a situation that is clearly not sitting right with you.
posted by kinetic at 7:16 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
It seems like you have been and are continuing to look for AskMeFi to say that what's ongoing is acceptable and fine, and time and time again you're not getting that answer.
At the very least, please see someone to talk through the issue of why you're turning repeatedly to us to put a seal of approval on a situation that is clearly not sitting right with you.
posted by kinetic at 7:16 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
Thing 1: I hate karaoke. Like, I really freakin' hate the idea of getting up and singing in front of people. But I just found out that my best friend loves karaoke. I had heard of a place to go that does live karaoke and made plans to go with her and her sister when she visits our town. Why? Because my best friend loves karaoke. And I love her. And I love doing nice things for her or going places with her that she likes. It makes me happy to do that. And she does nice things for me and feels good about it too. That's a healthy relationship. Giving to each other or compromising doesn't feel like it takes away from you because just seeing the other person happy is "payment" enough.
Thing 2: When your partner does one of the things described on the list, do you get a knot in your stomach? Do you question your own behavior? Do you try to think of a way to avoid the conflict the next time around?
These are red flag moments that you really need to listen to and dissect with a therapist. My husband is a narcissist and he'll say something that will bring up this red flag in my mind. But until I got a therapist and started discussing these things, I had no way to understand what was going on. So I bring her these little things that made me stop for a moment and question what was going on and she helps me put a name to them and understand why it made me feel bad.
Thing 3: For a few weeks, try this: when one of these red flag moments happens, try to imagine how a different response would make you feel - a healthy, non-selfish response.
For example, if you buy new earrings and he says, "oh, I see, you're trying to look nice for when you leave me", imagine him saying instead, "Let me see those - oh they are pretty! I bet they'll look nice on you." Now think back to how you feel in your gut with each of those responses. Does one of them give you a knot? Does the other make you feel like your partner actually likes you and sees you as a person other than himself?
One More Thing: look at articles on emotional abuse and also the cycle of emotional abuse. You might find some things in there that ring true.
Good luck and memail any time if you want to talk.
posted by dawkins_7 at 8:25 AM on May 24, 2013 [5 favorites]
Thing 2: When your partner does one of the things described on the list, do you get a knot in your stomach? Do you question your own behavior? Do you try to think of a way to avoid the conflict the next time around?
These are red flag moments that you really need to listen to and dissect with a therapist. My husband is a narcissist and he'll say something that will bring up this red flag in my mind. But until I got a therapist and started discussing these things, I had no way to understand what was going on. So I bring her these little things that made me stop for a moment and question what was going on and she helps me put a name to them and understand why it made me feel bad.
Thing 3: For a few weeks, try this: when one of these red flag moments happens, try to imagine how a different response would make you feel - a healthy, non-selfish response.
For example, if you buy new earrings and he says, "oh, I see, you're trying to look nice for when you leave me", imagine him saying instead, "Let me see those - oh they are pretty! I bet they'll look nice on you." Now think back to how you feel in your gut with each of those responses. Does one of them give you a knot? Does the other make you feel like your partner actually likes you and sees you as a person other than himself?
One More Thing: look at articles on emotional abuse and also the cycle of emotional abuse. You might find some things in there that ring true.
Good luck and memail any time if you want to talk.
posted by dawkins_7 at 8:25 AM on May 24, 2013 [5 favorites]
- If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. Look at a tv schedule. Plan your tv-watching together. If you really love watching Elementary, and he wants to watch whatever's on the other channel, plan to leave in time to watch it at home. He sounds like he has an extremely low tolerance for boredom. When you spend time together, make plans.
- I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. Give it a definite try The Excellent Dance Band is playing at Club Friday. I got us tickets. If he won't go, go with a friend. It's okay for you to have likes that he just doesn't share.
- He has a lot of trouble listening. Listening is an important skill for life. There are books and articles on how to be better at it. I'll say this carefully - you post a lot of questions, and clearly have a lot of issues and intensity about relationships. Perhaps there's a compromise you can make where you limit some of the We have to talk events. It took me a long time to learn that my anxiety and emotions didn't always require a discussion. Choose your issues, and have discussions when it's really important. Learn to deal with annoyances quickly, and move on - Sheesh, you left the window open again, and these mosquitoes are hungry; c'mon, help me search and destroy, then we can watch Favorite Show in peace.
- When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. When you feel unloved, you don't just move on. Recognize that he's defensive. Defensiveness means he feels he has to defend himself. Even if it was annoying that he left the window open, it sounds like he needs assurance. Hey, it's just a window, it's not major. (hug)
- We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. Just plain rude. I'd have told him off for very bad manners. And I'd tell him that having good manners is a useful life skill, and that when he's ready to improve his, there's plenty of helpful information.
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better? If you are, on balance, happier with him than without him, that's a good sign. If he makes you feel bad about yourself, if he keeps you from growing, from living your life, those are dealbreakers for me. Every relationship has issues. It's up to you to decide if they're critical, or if you can accept him as he is.
- He's open to learning about how to improve. This is huge. In a relationship, in life, people should be growing and learning. Being open to improving in some of the ways you want *is* compromise.
From glancing at some of your previous questions, you don't have a sense of what's normal and healthy - I know that feeling really well. You want to change him, and that's generally not successful in intimate relationships, with the exception that you can change how you interact with him, in ways that are most likely to affect his behavior. Read the Shamu article.
John Gottman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gottman has done a lot of research, and has recommendations on what makes a marriage successful. or not.
Success:
http://www.camft.org/ScriptContent/Professional_Ex/Articles/GottmanApproach.htm
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/01/08/7-research-based-principles-for-making-marriage-work/
or not:
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/11/science/to-predict-divorce-ask-125-questions.html
http://www.gottmancouplesretreats.com/about/relationships-dysfunctional-divorce-predictors.aspx
http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/04/17/dr-gottman-four-negative-patterns-that-predict-divorce/
Prioritize working on yourself, having the life you want, and getting the best of what he has to give. If you change yourself and your behavior in healthy ways, and head in the direction you want your life to go, the relationship will either adapt successfully, or die.
posted by theora55 at 9:16 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
- I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. Give it a definite try The Excellent Dance Band is playing at Club Friday. I got us tickets. If he won't go, go with a friend. It's okay for you to have likes that he just doesn't share.
- He has a lot of trouble listening. Listening is an important skill for life. There are books and articles on how to be better at it. I'll say this carefully - you post a lot of questions, and clearly have a lot of issues and intensity about relationships. Perhaps there's a compromise you can make where you limit some of the We have to talk events. It took me a long time to learn that my anxiety and emotions didn't always require a discussion. Choose your issues, and have discussions when it's really important. Learn to deal with annoyances quickly, and move on - Sheesh, you left the window open again, and these mosquitoes are hungry; c'mon, help me search and destroy, then we can watch Favorite Show in peace.
- When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on. When you feel unloved, you don't just move on. Recognize that he's defensive. Defensiveness means he feels he has to defend himself. Even if it was annoying that he left the window open, it sounds like he needs assurance. Hey, it's just a window, it's not major. (hug)
- We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. Just plain rude. I'd have told him off for very bad manners. And I'd tell him that having good manners is a useful life skill, and that when he's ready to improve his, there's plenty of helpful information.
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better? If you are, on balance, happier with him than without him, that's a good sign. If he makes you feel bad about yourself, if he keeps you from growing, from living your life, those are dealbreakers for me. Every relationship has issues. It's up to you to decide if they're critical, or if you can accept him as he is.
- He's open to learning about how to improve. This is huge. In a relationship, in life, people should be growing and learning. Being open to improving in some of the ways you want *is* compromise.
From glancing at some of your previous questions, you don't have a sense of what's normal and healthy - I know that feeling really well. You want to change him, and that's generally not successful in intimate relationships, with the exception that you can change how you interact with him, in ways that are most likely to affect his behavior. Read the Shamu article.
John Gottman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gottman has done a lot of research, and has recommendations on what makes a marriage successful. or not.
Success:
http://www.camft.org/ScriptContent/Professional_Ex/Articles/GottmanApproach.htm
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/01/08/7-research-based-principles-for-making-marriage-work/
or not:
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/11/science/to-predict-divorce-ask-125-questions.html
http://www.gottmancouplesretreats.com/about/relationships-dysfunctional-divorce-predictors.aspx
http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/04/17/dr-gottman-four-negative-patterns-that-predict-divorce/
Prioritize working on yourself, having the life you want, and getting the best of what he has to give. If you change yourself and your behavior in healthy ways, and head in the direction you want your life to go, the relationship will either adapt successfully, or die.
posted by theora55 at 9:16 AM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, one thing you may not have learned from your parents: You deserve to be loved. You deserve a terrific relationship. If you didn't learn it in childhood, it isn't a simple thing to learn, but you can, and it's the truth.
posted by theora55 at 9:24 AM on May 24, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 9:24 AM on May 24, 2013 [6 favorites]
I've realized that in bad relationships in my past, I often felt extremely happy, relaxed, joyful, stable, and productive during those periods when my awful partners were not actively being shitty, because a break from the sulking, controlling, arguing, or selfishness feels unbelievably great.
It's analogous to how manic or hypomanic episodes can feel great and be immensely productive when you're bipolar, because it's so fucking great not to be depressed.
But true stability is not swinging between mania and depression, or elation at your relationship and wanting to end it all every few months. It's a steady, constant rightness, no matter the usual trials and tribulations of life.
posted by jaguar at 10:27 AM on May 24, 2013 [6 favorites]
It's analogous to how manic or hypomanic episodes can feel great and be immensely productive when you're bipolar, because it's so fucking great not to be depressed.
But true stability is not swinging between mania and depression, or elation at your relationship and wanting to end it all every few months. It's a steady, constant rightness, no matter the usual trials and tribulations of life.
posted by jaguar at 10:27 AM on May 24, 2013 [6 favorites]
Wow... You are describing me, 18-years ago...
He has to have everything right away, when he needs it, or he flips out and gets angry and frustrated and blame-y
ADHD - "must have 'shiny' new object, as it is stimulating my brain..." Why do you want to deny my stimulation/focus, off "shiny" ? Does he ever get gruff/upset/churlish if you distract him from an activity he is involved with ?
If he's hungry, we have to go eat right then
Possibly hypoglycemia - or... if he is taking stimulant medication for ADHD, the medication can dramatically speed-up a metabolism ...
... If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. ...
Check. This +movie-theatre movies. Took about 3-5 years for me to mature enough in our relationship, before I was comfortable with her ("non-interesting") choices...
Again - comes around to the ADHD inability for focus on anything that does especially interest him.
Are you sure he is actually medicated? Or perhaps, that he may need a dosage or medication change entirely?
... I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. ... — I used to be this guy. For over a decade in my current relationship I was this guy. I hated everything about dancing, the too loud music, the flailing around trying to emulate what other people were doing so I could fit in.
Check. Could be an ADHD thing, Could be an "outsider geek" thing (did he ever do those activities when younger and/or in previous relationships?), but... Check.
... He has a lot of trouble listening ...
Check. If he has ADHD, he is possibly treating the conversation and issues raised as "problems to be resolved" and then trying to use his ADHD "intuition" to dynamically jump from point "A", straight through to point "D", without hearing about your points "B" and "C. Typical ADHD (and possibly even "geek" behavior)... Does he also interrupt you and "talk over you" ?
... When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on ...
Having to be "right" - frankly I don't know if that is ADHD or "poorly socialized geek" behaviour. Did he have a rough, abusive childhood? Could be PTSD as well...
... but... Check...
... So, my story... It took about 18-years for me to emotionally mature to the level I should have been in my mid-20's. Therapy and age have helped - but it was not an easy journey.
... The problem with my personal journey, is that thanks to the duration involved, we now have a failed marriage and two children who bear no responsibility for their parents current inability to deal with each other ...
So - you have to decide, if you want to put-up with this until he becomes "self-aware" (potentially... NEVER) and possibly even inflict a dysfunctional relationship on potential children?
posted by jkaczor at 11:53 AM on May 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
He has to have everything right away, when he needs it, or he flips out and gets angry and frustrated and blame-y
ADHD - "must have 'shiny' new object, as it is stimulating my brain..." Why do you want to deny my stimulation/focus, off "shiny" ? Does he ever get gruff/upset/churlish if you distract him from an activity he is involved with ?
If he's hungry, we have to go eat right then
Possibly hypoglycemia - or... if he is taking stimulant medication for ADHD, the medication can dramatically speed-up a metabolism ...
... If he's bored, we have to watch what he wants to watch on TV. ...
Check. This +movie-theatre movies. Took about 3-5 years for me to mature enough in our relationship, before I was comfortable with her ("non-interesting") choices...
Again - comes around to the ADHD inability for focus on anything that does especially interest him.
Are you sure he is actually medicated? Or perhaps, that he may need a dosage or medication change entirely?
... I like to go dancing and have asked him to go with me many times but have never done it. ... — I used to be this guy. For over a decade in my current relationship I was this guy. I hated everything about dancing, the too loud music, the flailing around trying to emulate what other people were doing so I could fit in.
Check. Could be an ADHD thing, Could be an "outsider geek" thing (did he ever do those activities when younger and/or in previous relationships?), but... Check.
... He has a lot of trouble listening ...
Check. If he has ADHD, he is possibly treating the conversation and issues raised as "problems to be resolved" and then trying to use his ADHD "intuition" to dynamically jump from point "A", straight through to point "D", without hearing about your points "B" and "C. Typical ADHD (and possibly even "geek" behavior)... Does he also interrupt you and "talk over you" ?
... When he gets defensive, he doesn't just apologize and move on ...
Having to be "right" - frankly I don't know if that is ADHD or "poorly socialized geek" behaviour. Did he have a rough, abusive childhood? Could be PTSD as well...
... but... Check...
... So, my story... It took about 18-years for me to emotionally mature to the level I should have been in my mid-20's. Therapy and age have helped - but it was not an easy journey.
... The problem with my personal journey, is that thanks to the duration involved, we now have a failed marriage and two children who bear no responsibility for their parents current inability to deal with each other ...
So - you have to decide, if you want to put-up with this until he becomes "self-aware" (potentially... NEVER) and possibly even inflict a dysfunctional relationship on potential children?
posted by jkaczor at 11:53 AM on May 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
Just an update...
honestly - it will be a lot less painful to separate and break-up now - than after a decade of hurt, pain, emotional baggage and the unrelenting, on-going self-sacrifice and one-sided compromises you will constantly be making... let alone constant embarrassment and excuses for his behaviour to your ever dwindling set of friends, let alone if children ever came into the picture...
However... if you want to try...
Basically - give him the following ultimatums;
- he needs to see BOTH an on-going psychological therapist AND psychiatrist who specialize in the treatment of adult ADHD.
- he also needs to be medicated - consistently (monitored by the above medical professionals).
-- note - if they end-up recommending an ADHD 'stimulant' medication, it may be even more beneficial when paired with a low-dose anti-depressant - without that he may actually become more manic/"aspergery"...
- he also needs to attend couples therapy to begin to understand how normal relationships work.
- an intensive course in Anger Management would also be beneficial - because, it teaches one to stop before speaking and begin asking oneself questions like; "how will my response help - or harm the relationship ?" (relationship being ANY kind of relationship)
IF he misses more than 2-3 of any of the above sessions in a row - FOR ANY REASON, it is time to leave...
IF he sticks to the above regimes - he might change within 3-5 years... And it will not be easy for you either...
posted by jkaczor at 12:12 PM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
honestly - it will be a lot less painful to separate and break-up now - than after a decade of hurt, pain, emotional baggage and the unrelenting, on-going self-sacrifice and one-sided compromises you will constantly be making... let alone constant embarrassment and excuses for his behaviour to your ever dwindling set of friends, let alone if children ever came into the picture...
However... if you want to try...
Basically - give him the following ultimatums;
- he needs to see BOTH an on-going psychological therapist AND psychiatrist who specialize in the treatment of adult ADHD.
- he also needs to be medicated - consistently (monitored by the above medical professionals).
-- note - if they end-up recommending an ADHD 'stimulant' medication, it may be even more beneficial when paired with a low-dose anti-depressant - without that he may actually become more manic/"aspergery"...
- he also needs to attend couples therapy to begin to understand how normal relationships work.
- an intensive course in Anger Management would also be beneficial - because, it teaches one to stop before speaking and begin asking oneself questions like; "how will my response help - or harm the relationship ?" (relationship being ANY kind of relationship)
IF he misses more than 2-3 of any of the above sessions in a row - FOR ANY REASON, it is time to leave...
IF he sticks to the above regimes - he might change within 3-5 years... And it will not be easy for you either...
posted by jkaczor at 12:12 PM on May 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
Ooops, the following;
Again - comes around to the ADHD inability for focus on anything that does especially interest him.
Should have read:
Again - comes around to the ADHD inability to focus on anything that does NOT especially interest him.
posted by jkaczor at 1:07 PM on May 24, 2013
Again - comes around to the ADHD inability for focus on anything that does especially interest him.
Should have read:
Again - comes around to the ADHD inability to focus on anything that does NOT especially interest him.
posted by jkaczor at 1:07 PM on May 24, 2013
Well. My long-term partner is just not very sociable at all. "Introvert" is not quite the word...he just doesn't give a f--- about a lot of things that go to grease the wheels of social interaction. Plus, for God only knows what reason, introvert is now a cool self-descriptor. Not that kind of introvert, trust me.
Here's an example. Going to people's houses for meals. He can't fake it in conversation. So he's not much fun. People don't invite us. I do sometimes invite folks over and he enjoys it, on occasion. Old friend, but not my closest friend, getting married this summer. Can he be dragged there?
You know what? Big deal. Over the years, I've stopped trying to persuade him. I will go out by myself to meet friends, or have a beer at happy hour sitting at the bar on my own. Or even, on occasion, take an (obviously platonic) male friend to weddings and even funerals.
People are always giving me shit about how I need someone more mainstream. Let's see how many of them are married to their perfect, friendly, well-spoken partners, that is, the same ones they're with now, at 60. Don't let other people tell you how to live.
But do make sure that you're comfortable enough with yourself to know what is a need and what is a want, so to speak.
posted by skbw at 3:20 PM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here's an example. Going to people's houses for meals. He can't fake it in conversation. So he's not much fun. People don't invite us. I do sometimes invite folks over and he enjoys it, on occasion. Old friend, but not my closest friend, getting married this summer. Can he be dragged there?
You know what? Big deal. Over the years, I've stopped trying to persuade him. I will go out by myself to meet friends, or have a beer at happy hour sitting at the bar on my own. Or even, on occasion, take an (obviously platonic) male friend to weddings and even funerals.
People are always giving me shit about how I need someone more mainstream. Let's see how many of them are married to their perfect, friendly, well-spoken partners, that is, the same ones they're with now, at 60. Don't let other people tell you how to live.
But do make sure that you're comfortable enough with yourself to know what is a need and what is a want, so to speak.
posted by skbw at 3:20 PM on May 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
I say keep working on it. Real love is nice. In your shoes, I'd count my blessings for as long as they last. Very little in life is more beautiful and worthwhile than love, and the compromises are worth it. It doesn't always last, but sometimes it does for a while. In your shoes, I'd hold on until the clear end.
Yes I know the peanut gallery here disagrees. That's what happens when ya get strangers on the internet all in one place.
posted by htid at 1:05 AM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes I know the peanut gallery here disagrees. That's what happens when ya get strangers on the internet all in one place.
posted by htid at 1:05 AM on May 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know I'm late to the game here, and I still stand by my impression from questions past.
He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it.
He can't give others the same courtesy as he thinks he knows what they are saying before they say it and then has to say his response.
We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. He couldn't hang out with him and make small talk and just be nice. He was incredibly brusque and wound up staying in his room most of the time.
Wouldn't continue to put up with that for another minute. Though, I detect some potential jealousy issues with the friend, being that the friend was presumably male based on the pronoun.
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better?
I have. I was something of a later bloomer with relationships and put up with someone that did not treat me nearly as well as I deserved just because it was the first time I had felt someone love me in a romantic way, which is nice as you know. I learned a lot about myself and who I was as a person and I was measurably better because of the relationship.
It was also not worth putting up with the bad parts.
I am genuinely happier. I feel safe and secure in ways I never thought possible. I have become more feminist. I feel more empowered. I do better work. I am less stressed out.
None of that has to stop if you DTMFA. You'll have to go through the sadness of a breakup and that's not at all easy. But you can continue being happy, safe, secure, feminist, empowered, better working and less stressed without the unnecessary static of dealing with a bad romantic partner.
posted by ndfine at 6:53 AM on May 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
He's just not a compromiser. If he wants to do something, he has to do it. If he doesn't want to do something, he simply won't do it.
He can't give others the same courtesy as he thinks he knows what they are saying before they say it and then has to say his response.
We stayed with a friend of mine when we were traveling. He thought the friend was boring and uncreative. He couldn't hang out with him and make small talk and just be nice. He was incredibly brusque and wound up staying in his room most of the time.
Wouldn't continue to put up with that for another minute. Though, I detect some potential jealousy issues with the friend, being that the friend was presumably male based on the pronoun.
- Have you been in a relationship with some real issues, but that just makes your life better?
I have. I was something of a later bloomer with relationships and put up with someone that did not treat me nearly as well as I deserved just because it was the first time I had felt someone love me in a romantic way, which is nice as you know. I learned a lot about myself and who I was as a person and I was measurably better because of the relationship.
It was also not worth putting up with the bad parts.
I am genuinely happier. I feel safe and secure in ways I never thought possible. I have become more feminist. I feel more empowered. I do better work. I am less stressed out.
None of that has to stop if you DTMFA. You'll have to go through the sadness of a breakup and that's not at all easy. But you can continue being happy, safe, secure, feminist, empowered, better working and less stressed without the unnecessary static of dealing with a bad romantic partner.
posted by ndfine at 6:53 AM on May 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Just wanted to post a follow-up. Something major has shifted in our relationship, and in a very good way. We started counseling. He bought me flowers... twice. (That was a huge thing he said he'd never do.) We went to a party until we both got bored. We go out to eat at places that aren't his first choice. We had people over and played games.
When I asked him what had changed, he just said that he didn't really believe that any of these things would make me happy until he tried them. (???)
Anyway, we're both way happier. I hope this sticks. :)
posted by 3491again at 2:58 PM on June 30, 2013 [4 favorites]
When I asked him what had changed, he just said that he didn't really believe that any of these things would make me happy until he tried them. (???)
Anyway, we're both way happier. I hope this sticks. :)
posted by 3491again at 2:58 PM on June 30, 2013 [4 favorites]
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Yes, and it was called "childhood." Mom had these issues where my room had to cleaned all the time, she was very self-centered about this, but it just made my life better because...
... do you see where I'm going with this? You're not describing an adult relationship here. You guys need to draw some lines, respect those lines and grow together. Or move on. Because that's what adults do.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:20 PM on May 23, 2013 [18 favorites]