Okay, SHOW me how you move from talking to kissing.
May 16, 2013 7:30 PM Subscribe
I honestly don't understand how "chemistry" works or what it means for "sparks to fly". When I go on a date it looks like this: I ask a question, she replies; she asks a question, I reply; I make an observation, she concurs or demurs; she makes an observation, I concur or demur; repeat for an hour or two, after which we both say "it was nice meeting you" and each go home. Sometimes I ask for a second date, and if she agrees, the second date looks exactly like the first. At what point are you supposed to go "Oh yeah, I went backpacking in South America once too, and don't you think Natalie Portman was pretty good in that movie, and now if you don't mind I am going to lean in and kiss you." I know you're supposed to flirt and try to make the girl laugh, but I'm not much good at doing this and when I try it comes across as wooden at best, creepy at worst. What I want is to see this process modeled. I would like to see actual footage of real people dating and crossing the boundary between "platonic small talk" and "romance". I know this sounds weird -- who'd videotape a date? -- but stranger things have been found on the internet. Any leads?
Generally you progressively invade their personal space. Immediately stop if they don't seem enthused at every stage of the game. If they are enthused, continue to escalate these invasions until it's mouth to mouth contact.
The honorable mr. telegraph did this to great effect on our first date by asking me jokingly if I wanted to go dancing (as we left the bar where we had met for a drink), grabbing my hand and pantomiming dancing, and eventually kissing me. I still think it's probably the smoothest thing he's ever done (and now I kind of want to ask if he's used that move before...)
posted by telegraph at 7:48 PM on May 16, 2013 [28 favorites]
The honorable mr. telegraph did this to great effect on our first date by asking me jokingly if I wanted to go dancing (as we left the bar where we had met for a drink), grabbing my hand and pantomiming dancing, and eventually kissing me. I still think it's probably the smoothest thing he's ever done (and now I kind of want to ask if he's used that move before...)
posted by telegraph at 7:48 PM on May 16, 2013 [28 favorites]
Are you actually physically attracted to these girls? Do *you* want to kiss them?
Learn how to fantasize. What does an attractive girl look like to you? Go find them and ask them out. Imagine what you'd like to do. Then, when you do meet a girl you'd like to kiss, work it out.
"Chemistry" and "flying sparks" are some of those many things like porn -- you just know it when you see it.
posted by mibo at 7:53 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]
Learn how to fantasize. What does an attractive girl look like to you? Go find them and ask them out. Imagine what you'd like to do. Then, when you do meet a girl you'd like to kiss, work it out.
"Chemistry" and "flying sparks" are some of those many things like porn -- you just know it when you see it.
posted by mibo at 7:53 PM on May 16, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've heard mixed opinions about this, but I'm all for verbal directness. Pause, lingering eye contact, a half smile, and "I'd really like to kiss you right now" or "Can I kiss you?" Works for/on me.
posted by rabbitbookworm at 7:56 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by rabbitbookworm at 7:56 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
How do you feel about the girls? I don't think there is a procedure you can follow and have magical sparks fly.
I've gone on several online dates recently...on one of them we had pretty obvious sparks and I remember little jolts of excitement at various things he said and feeling a certain energy between us. We kissed and went out on a few more dates. Went on another date around the same time and we got along perfectly fine but I didn't feel little jolts of excitement at anything even though we had a pleasant conversation. That happens most of the time.
posted by fromageball at 7:57 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've gone on several online dates recently...on one of them we had pretty obvious sparks and I remember little jolts of excitement at various things he said and feeling a certain energy between us. We kissed and went out on a few more dates. Went on another date around the same time and we got along perfectly fine but I didn't feel little jolts of excitement at anything even though we had a pleasant conversation. That happens most of the time.
posted by fromageball at 7:57 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
Do you have fun, like, at all?
At what point are you supposed to go "Oh yeah, I went backpacking in South America once too, and don't you think Natalie Portman was pretty good in that movie, and now if you don't mind I am going to lean in and kiss you."
You're supposed to start with responses like the first part of the above as they happen in conversation.
Say you ask, "What's the best vacation you've ever taken?" (Or whatever might bring up a mention of backpacking in South America.) She says, "I spent my junior year abroad in Buenos Aires and afterwards spent the summer backpacking around South America." THEN you follow with, "Really? That's amazing, I spent my junior year in Santiago! Where all did you go? When was that exactly? Remember that weird little hostel in the jungle with the really bad wifi?" Or WHATEVER. you keep the conversation going. You don't just keep interrogating each other like a Tavis Smiley interview from hell.
I mean, this is not guaranteed to get you laid or anything, but establishing a connection right off the bat is good. Having something in common is good.
Most of the successful dates I've been on have involved a very quick jump into some kind of shared moment. Sometimes it's because of a funny experience on the date itself, or having something HUGE in common (the best date I've ever been on it turned out the guy had done a college internship at basically my hometown paper and knew a bunch of people I know). Something happens and you go from strangers to two people who are on the same team, somehow.
I mean, it's possible that you meet someone where the chemistry is so strong that you don't need any shared experience to make you feel a connection. But since you say you've never felt that, start with "shared experience". It's not enough to say "oh, me too!" Keep the conversation going. When the guy who would soon become my boyfriend mentioned interning at the Times-Picayune, I immediately asked what year, then "did you know so and so, the copy editor?" "Did you hang out at Molly's?" "Were you still there when Katrina happened?" We very quickly transitioned into talking about far more complex subjects than the standard "where did you go to school" "how did you decide to become an architect" type things. By the end of the night we were trading tales of our parents' messy divorces and making out in the back of a taxi. We were a team.
I've also had lots of dates where I thought the other person was nice, attractive, etc. but for whatever reason we never got beyond "how did you decide to become an architect" territory. Those are the less successful dates.
In my opinion you can work on your conversation skills and that might help you with being better at dating and "chemistry" and the like. But it also might be that you're not meeting people who you can find common ground with. It might be worth exploring why that is.
posted by Sara C. at 8:03 PM on May 16, 2013 [16 favorites]
At what point are you supposed to go "Oh yeah, I went backpacking in South America once too, and don't you think Natalie Portman was pretty good in that movie, and now if you don't mind I am going to lean in and kiss you."
You're supposed to start with responses like the first part of the above as they happen in conversation.
Say you ask, "What's the best vacation you've ever taken?" (Or whatever might bring up a mention of backpacking in South America.) She says, "I spent my junior year abroad in Buenos Aires and afterwards spent the summer backpacking around South America." THEN you follow with, "Really? That's amazing, I spent my junior year in Santiago! Where all did you go? When was that exactly? Remember that weird little hostel in the jungle with the really bad wifi?" Or WHATEVER. you keep the conversation going. You don't just keep interrogating each other like a Tavis Smiley interview from hell.
I mean, this is not guaranteed to get you laid or anything, but establishing a connection right off the bat is good. Having something in common is good.
Most of the successful dates I've been on have involved a very quick jump into some kind of shared moment. Sometimes it's because of a funny experience on the date itself, or having something HUGE in common (the best date I've ever been on it turned out the guy had done a college internship at basically my hometown paper and knew a bunch of people I know). Something happens and you go from strangers to two people who are on the same team, somehow.
I mean, it's possible that you meet someone where the chemistry is so strong that you don't need any shared experience to make you feel a connection. But since you say you've never felt that, start with "shared experience". It's not enough to say "oh, me too!" Keep the conversation going. When the guy who would soon become my boyfriend mentioned interning at the Times-Picayune, I immediately asked what year, then "did you know so and so, the copy editor?" "Did you hang out at Molly's?" "Were you still there when Katrina happened?" We very quickly transitioned into talking about far more complex subjects than the standard "where did you go to school" "how did you decide to become an architect" type things. By the end of the night we were trading tales of our parents' messy divorces and making out in the back of a taxi. We were a team.
I've also had lots of dates where I thought the other person was nice, attractive, etc. but for whatever reason we never got beyond "how did you decide to become an architect" territory. Those are the less successful dates.
In my opinion you can work on your conversation skills and that might help you with being better at dating and "chemistry" and the like. But it also might be that you're not meeting people who you can find common ground with. It might be worth exploring why that is.
posted by Sara C. at 8:03 PM on May 16, 2013 [16 favorites]
Okay, here we go Flirting and Human Sexuality. I actually learned about this in a human sexuality course and this sums it up pretty well.
"STEP 1: EYE CONTACT – This is powerful and the spark or connection made here can embolden the most shy and demure person to make the next step.
STEP 2: INTRODUCTION – This is more of an approach it can take the form or a simple hello to some corny line or phrase. Many authors have written books on how to initiate conversation. When eye contact is made then the spark is already there. Women should be careful to not give too much encouragement since guys sometimes read more into simply friendliness.
STEP 3: TOUCH – If the conversation made at step two is going well then a light will occur from the object of one’s affection (from a touch on the shoulder, the knee, the face…virtually anywhere.)
STEP 4: SYNCHRONIZED BEHAVIOUR – During the conversation the flirting usually will result in mirrored behaviour and this indicates that there is an interest.
STEP 5: CHOICE – After synchronization usually a choice will be made to end the flirtation or take it to another level…"
So, you are probably at step 2 on your date already since you have asked them out and are having a mutual conversation, however don't ignore step 1 even if you are on a date. Eye contact shows someone you are interested.
I think you are wondering how to get from talking to step 3 - Touch. Well.. you just have to do it. Reach across the table and touch her hand. Also, maybe the kind of dates you are going on don't allow as much touch. Go on a walk in the park! That is a perfect place for simple dating touch, such as holding hands or side-hugs.
Touch will lead to kissing, as that is just a more intense form of touch. Hope it helps!
posted by Crystalinne at 8:04 PM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]
"STEP 1: EYE CONTACT – This is powerful and the spark or connection made here can embolden the most shy and demure person to make the next step.
STEP 2: INTRODUCTION – This is more of an approach it can take the form or a simple hello to some corny line or phrase. Many authors have written books on how to initiate conversation. When eye contact is made then the spark is already there. Women should be careful to not give too much encouragement since guys sometimes read more into simply friendliness.
STEP 3: TOUCH – If the conversation made at step two is going well then a light will occur from the object of one’s affection (from a touch on the shoulder, the knee, the face…virtually anywhere.)
STEP 4: SYNCHRONIZED BEHAVIOUR – During the conversation the flirting usually will result in mirrored behaviour and this indicates that there is an interest.
STEP 5: CHOICE – After synchronization usually a choice will be made to end the flirtation or take it to another level…"
So, you are probably at step 2 on your date already since you have asked them out and are having a mutual conversation, however don't ignore step 1 even if you are on a date. Eye contact shows someone you are interested.
I think you are wondering how to get from talking to step 3 - Touch. Well.. you just have to do it. Reach across the table and touch her hand. Also, maybe the kind of dates you are going on don't allow as much touch. Go on a walk in the park! That is a perfect place for simple dating touch, such as holding hands or side-hugs.
Touch will lead to kissing, as that is just a more intense form of touch. Hope it helps!
posted by Crystalinne at 8:04 PM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]
I fucking love this question so much.
Okay, I concur with the idea of romance novels. Find something you're even slightly interested in and try a bunch of them. Relax. Understand that you're supposed to get into them to enjoy them. It'll be over the top but if you are really foreign to it it'll at least be an introduction. Hit up your library and check out with a bunch of guesses. Westerns are male romance novels, btw.
It helps greatly to understand that other people can be awkward too. If you're awkward and they're awkward, the probability of awkwardness climbs to almost 1. Maybe you date awkward people?
posted by unixrat at 8:13 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
Okay, I concur with the idea of romance novels. Find something you're even slightly interested in and try a bunch of them. Relax. Understand that you're supposed to get into them to enjoy them. It'll be over the top but if you are really foreign to it it'll at least be an introduction. Hit up your library and check out with a bunch of guesses. Westerns are male romance novels, btw.
It helps greatly to understand that other people can be awkward too. If you're awkward and they're awkward, the probability of awkwardness climbs to almost 1. Maybe you date awkward people?
posted by unixrat at 8:13 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
At the end of the night, you're probably dropping her off, you're either walking her to her door, or you're telling her you had a great time in the car and setting up the next date. Strong eye contact, moving into their personal space, slowing your speech. You can tell if the woman is uncomfortable immediately (she breaks eye contact, she starts tilting her head away from you, her hand goes toward the door handle), and if you sense it you can just modify that lunging kiss move into a polite hug goodbye.
Women are much more subtle than men, it took me a long time to understand that. It's not like the movies where the woman always makes the moves and just invites you upstairs. If I've been getting mixed signals from her all night, I'll park the car, and I'll ask her, "Can I walk you to your door?" Every girl I've been out with knows what this means, it's subtle, but at the same time super obvious.
As you get better, it really doesn't take much more than, park, slowly unbuckle your seatbelt, turn to look at her, maintain strong eyecontact, flash a devilish smile while saying, "I had a really good time with you tonight" watch her body language for a positive response, and then slowly move in.
I'm not a fan of asking permission for the kiss, it's more exciting and natural to let it happen organically. The above advice about touching is really good. If you touch her a lot during the date... and I mean incidental touching like on the hand, arm, holding her while perfecting her golf swing on the minigolf course, I mean obviously that's going to improve your confidence and get you both used to each other. If you're a good conversationalist, you can build attraction without touching, but touching is definitely a way to speed along the process and make her feel more comfortable with you too.
posted by banished at 8:15 PM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Women are much more subtle than men, it took me a long time to understand that. It's not like the movies where the woman always makes the moves and just invites you upstairs. If I've been getting mixed signals from her all night, I'll park the car, and I'll ask her, "Can I walk you to your door?" Every girl I've been out with knows what this means, it's subtle, but at the same time super obvious.
As you get better, it really doesn't take much more than, park, slowly unbuckle your seatbelt, turn to look at her, maintain strong eyecontact, flash a devilish smile while saying, "I had a really good time with you tonight" watch her body language for a positive response, and then slowly move in.
I'm not a fan of asking permission for the kiss, it's more exciting and natural to let it happen organically. The above advice about touching is really good. If you touch her a lot during the date... and I mean incidental touching like on the hand, arm, holding her while perfecting her golf swing on the minigolf course, I mean obviously that's going to improve your confidence and get you both used to each other. If you're a good conversationalist, you can build attraction without touching, but touching is definitely a way to speed along the process and make her feel more comfortable with you too.
posted by banished at 8:15 PM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Have you ever felt really attracted to someone? Are you attracted to these girls you're going on dates with? Because I sort of get the vibe from this question that you aren't attracted to them at all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:16 PM on May 16, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:16 PM on May 16, 2013 [14 favorites]
I agree with Banished. It's about making small moves, and then seeing how she responds. It takes a bit to learn how to do this. It's the learning when she is making moves in response to yours. It's a bit of a dance.
And I also want to acknowledge how terrifying it is. That's part of it I'm afraid - you are going to have to learn to live with a some fear around this - fear is not the right word, it's a small fear, but no matter how long you've been doing it's still there to some extent.
Do you have any good woman friends you can talk with about this? Any strong attractive types who know the whole scenario?
posted by miles1972 at 8:24 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
And I also want to acknowledge how terrifying it is. That's part of it I'm afraid - you are going to have to learn to live with a some fear around this - fear is not the right word, it's a small fear, but no matter how long you've been doing it's still there to some extent.
Do you have any good woman friends you can talk with about this? Any strong attractive types who know the whole scenario?
posted by miles1972 at 8:24 PM on May 16, 2013 [1 favorite]
Do you actually want to kiss these women you're out on dates with, or do you just feel that it's expected? As a couple of other commenters have said, I'm not getting the sense that you're feeling excited about or drawn to these date partners. Because this:
This may sound hyperbolic, but when I met my now-husband, it felt like a golden hammer came out of the sky and hit me on top of my head as a giant voice intoned PAY ATTENTION. SOMETHING IMPORTANT IS HAPPENING. We met on a Thursday night, and on Sunday I flew home to break up with the guy I was living with and embark on a long-distance relationship, despite having not gone farther with the new fella than kissing.
The spark is kind of unmistakeable, in my experience. If you feel it with someone, you'll know it.
posted by Lexica at 8:28 PM on May 16, 2013 [12 favorites]
When I go on a date it looks like this: I ask a question, she replies; she asks a question, I reply; I make an observation, she concurs or demurs; she makes an observation, I concur or demur; repeat for an hour or two, after which we both say "it was nice meeting you" and each go home.doesn't sound as though you're feeling any spark at all. I mean, you might as well be doing an informational interview for work.
This may sound hyperbolic, but when I met my now-husband, it felt like a golden hammer came out of the sky and hit me on top of my head as a giant voice intoned PAY ATTENTION. SOMETHING IMPORTANT IS HAPPENING. We met on a Thursday night, and on Sunday I flew home to break up with the guy I was living with and embark on a long-distance relationship, despite having not gone farther with the new fella than kissing.
The spark is kind of unmistakeable, in my experience. If you feel it with someone, you'll know it.
posted by Lexica at 8:28 PM on May 16, 2013 [12 favorites]
As far as research-based, watching-people-on-a-date evidence, you may want to check out the films Before Sunrise and Before Sunset. The entirety of the first film is two people meeting on a train and spending the day together--it's literally just their conversation. The second film is when they meet up again a decade or so later.
The reason I recommend these two is they illustrate something important about successful dating, which is that the conversations are less about "What is your job? How many brothers do you have?" and more about life and how it works and ideas and death and science and dreaming! (Etc.) The key is to put less stock in the person and the imminent success of the interaction you're having, and more into cultivating a rich interior life that makes you want to have discussions with other people. Have you ever noticed that you have the best conversations when you're reading more, or taking classes, or busy with other activities that are consuming your interest?
The trick is to wake up your mind as much as possible and then prioritize that over your perceived success with these women. Think of the goal as just having a really good conversation--and in order to do that, you need to read, learn, and generally fill yourself up with thoughts, ideas, and opinions. Otherwise, trying to figure out how the date is going while on the date, you're already evaluating something that doesn't even exist yet.
So yeah: solution to better dates? Amplify your life. Oh, and make sure you're dating people you're attracted to, or all the amplification in the world won't help (if you're a me).
Side note: I know this is hard.
posted by aintthattheway at 8:35 PM on May 16, 2013 [29 favorites]
The reason I recommend these two is they illustrate something important about successful dating, which is that the conversations are less about "What is your job? How many brothers do you have?" and more about life and how it works and ideas and death and science and dreaming! (Etc.) The key is to put less stock in the person and the imminent success of the interaction you're having, and more into cultivating a rich interior life that makes you want to have discussions with other people. Have you ever noticed that you have the best conversations when you're reading more, or taking classes, or busy with other activities that are consuming your interest?
The trick is to wake up your mind as much as possible and then prioritize that over your perceived success with these women. Think of the goal as just having a really good conversation--and in order to do that, you need to read, learn, and generally fill yourself up with thoughts, ideas, and opinions. Otherwise, trying to figure out how the date is going while on the date, you're already evaluating something that doesn't even exist yet.
So yeah: solution to better dates? Amplify your life. Oh, and make sure you're dating people you're attracted to, or all the amplification in the world won't help (if you're a me).
Side note: I know this is hard.
posted by aintthattheway at 8:35 PM on May 16, 2013 [29 favorites]
The way you're describing things, it sounds like you think this is, I dunno, like a video game puzzle or something where you press X and Y and A and then choose the KISS GIRL option and you're just not making the right choices.
A lot of this is touch and body language. If a girl is touching you a lot and otherwise engaged in a flirty way--like she laughs and touches your arm a lot, she's leaning against you, she's leaning towards you and smiling, lots of eye contact, lots of comfortable-but-not-bad-silences-that-seem-charged-and-tingly--that kind of thing, she wants you to.
In other words, if you're wondering if she wants you to, she wants you to.
But okay, this isn't answering your question as written, so I talked to some female friends and they said "The coffee shop scene in Meet Joe Black." Then I consulted Google and they said "The coffee shop scene in Meet Joe Black." So here it is.
Let me break it down for you. Right up until about 1:50 they're making light conversation, but right then, he digs in deeper. They're beyond small talk. They're actually conversing. They're smiling. They're making lots of eye contact. And here's the thing: Brad Pitt is actually engaging with her like a person rather than either passing the time with smalltalk or trying to get into her pants, but then he uses that to start flirting with her in a light-hearted way.
But then he doesn't, like, make a move or anything. He asks her about herself and is obviously interested. He's not super-pushy when she wants to go, but he makes it clear he'd like to keep things going. And then mirroring, just like they're talking about upthread. Then when the cut jumps, they're more relaxed, but they're also closer together, which is what I'm talking about. Even when they look away, it's not the uncomfortable "oh god please kill me" look away or the "so bored" look away. It's a bashful, shy kind of looking away, like when you were in kindergarten and kinda wanted to tell that cute girl you liked her but oh man, girls still have cooties, right? So right about 6:07 when they're both looking at each other and half-smiling? That's it, that's when you kiss her.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:46 PM on May 16, 2013 [26 favorites]
A lot of this is touch and body language. If a girl is touching you a lot and otherwise engaged in a flirty way--like she laughs and touches your arm a lot, she's leaning against you, she's leaning towards you and smiling, lots of eye contact, lots of comfortable-but-not-bad-silences-that-seem-charged-and-tingly--that kind of thing, she wants you to.
In other words, if you're wondering if she wants you to, she wants you to.
But okay, this isn't answering your question as written, so I talked to some female friends and they said "The coffee shop scene in Meet Joe Black." Then I consulted Google and they said "The coffee shop scene in Meet Joe Black." So here it is.
Let me break it down for you. Right up until about 1:50 they're making light conversation, but right then, he digs in deeper. They're beyond small talk. They're actually conversing. They're smiling. They're making lots of eye contact. And here's the thing: Brad Pitt is actually engaging with her like a person rather than either passing the time with smalltalk or trying to get into her pants, but then he uses that to start flirting with her in a light-hearted way.
But then he doesn't, like, make a move or anything. He asks her about herself and is obviously interested. He's not super-pushy when she wants to go, but he makes it clear he'd like to keep things going. And then mirroring, just like they're talking about upthread. Then when the cut jumps, they're more relaxed, but they're also closer together, which is what I'm talking about. Even when they look away, it's not the uncomfortable "oh god please kill me" look away or the "so bored" look away. It's a bashful, shy kind of looking away, like when you were in kindergarten and kinda wanted to tell that cute girl you liked her but oh man, girls still have cooties, right? So right about 6:07 when they're both looking at each other and half-smiling? That's it, that's when you kiss her.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:46 PM on May 16, 2013 [26 favorites]
I can't think of any videos to recommend you, but I think maybe one of the pieces you could be missing in your interactions is vulnerability. You gotta be willing to put yourself out there and make a fool, be impulsive...say something you want to say without thinking it over too much...if you notice her eyes get a great sparkle when she laughs or she lights up when she talks about how much she loves her job and you feel a wave of "gosh, she looks cute!" Just blurt out, "You have the cutest laugh!" or whatever it is. If you think, "should I say something? how do I say it? would it be weird? what if she doesn't like me..." You'll either talk yourself out of it, or when it does come out there's a good chance it'll sound weird, scripted, and probably poorly timed because it wasn't imbued with all the feelings of the original impulse.
It's not about smooth moves. It's about shaking off the shackles and just letting the real you come out. When that happens, you start experiencing small amounts of human intimacy with her. And then, if there's chemistry/connection, those small moments of intimacy keep building until you start getting uncontrollable urges to get physically closer. Then, you just keep following your impulses (and reading her reactions) to bump hands, sit extra close on the bus, nudge her with your elbow (and if she's feeling the same, she'll be bumping/relaxing into you, too). Sooner or later, you'll kiss.
Also, yeah, first kisses are almost always awkward. And hot. But awkward.
posted by hannahelastic at 10:03 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's not about smooth moves. It's about shaking off the shackles and just letting the real you come out. When that happens, you start experiencing small amounts of human intimacy with her. And then, if there's chemistry/connection, those small moments of intimacy keep building until you start getting uncontrollable urges to get physically closer. Then, you just keep following your impulses (and reading her reactions) to bump hands, sit extra close on the bus, nudge her with your elbow (and if she's feeling the same, she'll be bumping/relaxing into you, too). Sooner or later, you'll kiss.
Also, yeah, first kisses are almost always awkward. And hot. But awkward.
posted by hannahelastic at 10:03 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you feel happy, excited, consumed, and energized talking to the person, and the eye contact is strong and there are plenty of smiles, and you feel they are showing the same signs, then that's a pretty good indication that it is a good time to sit a little closer. That's the first step. If, after a while, that doesn't seem to cause any change in any of those things, then you can try for closer.
posted by Dansaman at 10:09 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 10:09 PM on May 16, 2013 [2 favorites]
I honestly don't understand how "chemistry" works or what it means for "sparks to fly".
Have you ever felt really physically attracted to someone? Not necessarily "oh look I have an erection ", but you feel the urge to touch them, to be close to them, a little nervous around them but in a good way? When two people are feeling that way about each other in the same moment and the same space, they naturally start invading each other's personal space, making more eye contact, and so on, and it kind of happens automatically.
I remember meeting someone who I'd chatted with online but not in person; we met in a professional setting, we sat down in her office in opposing chairs, and she immediately put her hands on my thighs and pulled me closer. A long time later, we talked about it and she didn't even remember doing it; it was just her natural response. That's the best way I can describe it.
posted by davejay at 10:16 PM on May 16, 2013 [9 favorites]
Have you ever felt really physically attracted to someone? Not necessarily "oh look I have an erection ", but you feel the urge to touch them, to be close to them, a little nervous around them but in a good way? When two people are feeling that way about each other in the same moment and the same space, they naturally start invading each other's personal space, making more eye contact, and so on, and it kind of happens automatically.
I remember meeting someone who I'd chatted with online but not in person; we met in a professional setting, we sat down in her office in opposing chairs, and she immediately put her hands on my thighs and pulled me closer. A long time later, we talked about it and she didn't even remember doing it; it was just her natural response. That's the best way I can describe it.
posted by davejay at 10:16 PM on May 16, 2013 [9 favorites]
I wonder if you might have a little Aspergers going on. I am not a doctor, and I only brought this up because your description of the dating experience really reminds me of how I've heard people with Aspergers Syndrome describe social interaction. Like, they have to constantly struggle to read the other person's expressions and actions, and they feel like they have to say just the right "normal" things to achieve the desired result. They made dating sound like a very un-fun video game, where you have a set list of possible conversational responses for each scenario, and you must pick the right one, very quickly, or you will lose the game.
Maybe I'm wildly off-base there, and if so, I apologize. (And I certainly don't mean to slight anybody on the autism spectrum, either!)
I think many of us can relate to feeling totally inept on a date. But as other commenters have pointed out, there's nothing in your post that makes it sound like you're excited to be with these girls. If you're going to try and kiss them, you have to actually want to kiss them first, or it will seem mechanical and weird. If you don't feel compelled to make a move, don't do it. And if you do feel compelled to make a move, there's no rule that says you can't ask first. If a girl feels attracted to you, and you tell her, "I find you very attractive, and I really want to kiss you right now," she is probably not going to mind that at all!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:28 PM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Maybe I'm wildly off-base there, and if so, I apologize. (And I certainly don't mean to slight anybody on the autism spectrum, either!)
I think many of us can relate to feeling totally inept on a date. But as other commenters have pointed out, there's nothing in your post that makes it sound like you're excited to be with these girls. If you're going to try and kiss them, you have to actually want to kiss them first, or it will seem mechanical and weird. If you don't feel compelled to make a move, don't do it. And if you do feel compelled to make a move, there's no rule that says you can't ask first. If a girl feels attracted to you, and you tell her, "I find you very attractive, and I really want to kiss you right now," she is probably not going to mind that at all!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:28 PM on May 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
There is a lot of good advice here (telegraph essentially nails it for mine).
(I come) across as wooden at best, creepy at worst.
It sounds like you need to work on your self-confidence and be willing to take a little bit more of a risk. Letting your date know (verbally or non-verbally) you are attracted to them isn't creepy in and of itself.
If you worry that you might be a creep, then you aren't one.
As for your request for specific examples, feel free to memail me. Good luck.
posted by TheOtherGuy at 12:30 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
(I come) across as wooden at best, creepy at worst.
It sounds like you need to work on your self-confidence and be willing to take a little bit more of a risk. Letting your date know (verbally or non-verbally) you are attracted to them isn't creepy in and of itself.
If you worry that you might be a creep, then you aren't one.
As for your request for specific examples, feel free to memail me. Good luck.
posted by TheOtherGuy at 12:30 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you're missing the preliminary step of some kind of physical contact before the kissing. Like, you're going to want to have a lot of body contact like this or be holding hands like this or be facing each other in close proximity with eye contact. These things will make the transition to the kiss much more natural.
And for the record, sometimes what you need is not a spark, but some courage.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:05 AM on May 17, 2013
And for the record, sometimes what you need is not a spark, but some courage.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:05 AM on May 17, 2013
Just as a data point: I hate it when I guy says 'Can I kiss you?', and I know many women feel the same. (Although lots probably don't, as well.) It makes me feel mega-awkward, even if the answer is 'Yes', because them it's all wooden and staged and I feel all...weird.
Honestly, I think this is about confidence. If you gradually amp up the physical contact, watching carefully for signs of discomfort and backing off immediately if they occur, you'll do fine. If it helps, I've dated a lot and pretty much never thought 'Ugh, I can't believe he had the nerve to try and touch me!'.
posted by Salamander at 2:36 AM on May 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
Honestly, I think this is about confidence. If you gradually amp up the physical contact, watching carefully for signs of discomfort and backing off immediately if they occur, you'll do fine. If it helps, I've dated a lot and pretty much never thought 'Ugh, I can't believe he had the nerve to try and touch me!'.
posted by Salamander at 2:36 AM on May 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
You mentioned your "interviewing" procedure and that you're not really interested in social interaction in a previous post. You probably need to get over that before you go on dates--maybe try therapy? If you're not really interested in what a woman is saying, she can probably tell and probably doesn't want to kiss you anyway, unless, like you, her main goal for the date is to make out with someone (that is your main goal, isn't it? because that's how your post comes off). Most people want to make a real connection, which then leads to the kissing. You need to develop that part of your social skill set first.
posted by chaiminda at 2:48 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by chaiminda at 2:48 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Many of my first kisses with people I've dated have been catalyzed by nice romantic moments such as fireworks exploding overhead, watching meteor showers on the beach, watching meteor showers on top of a mountain, spinning on the same tire swing, walking through warm summer rainstorms, taking in beautiful views from abandoned rooftops or staying up late into the wee hours of the moment talking until everyone else in the world seems asleep.
Other times, I just liked the guy after a few casual dates. It didn't take a moonlit bicycle ride to inspire a kiss. What made the kiss happen? A feeling that grew as I got to know the person.
As others have said, start slowly and let the reaction of your date be your guide. If your date is going well and she lets you get close to her, is making lots of eye contact and seems comfortable with you coming in to her personal space then things are looking good for a kiss and once you get close enough you may feel a magnetic attraction between your faces like two of those Hallmark kissing bear toys.
If you try to get close and she scoots back, turns her head away and looks uncomfortable then be a gentleman and give her room.
It may or may not be helpful to know how old you are.
posted by dottiechang at 2:48 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Other times, I just liked the guy after a few casual dates. It didn't take a moonlit bicycle ride to inspire a kiss. What made the kiss happen? A feeling that grew as I got to know the person.
As others have said, start slowly and let the reaction of your date be your guide. If your date is going well and she lets you get close to her, is making lots of eye contact and seems comfortable with you coming in to her personal space then things are looking good for a kiss and once you get close enough you may feel a magnetic attraction between your faces like two of those Hallmark kissing bear toys.
If you try to get close and she scoots back, turns her head away and looks uncomfortable then be a gentleman and give her room.
It may or may not be helpful to know how old you are.
posted by dottiechang at 2:48 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ah, I loved it when my partner first asked me "May I kiss you on the lips?". It made me melty. I'd had men ask to kiss me before but never with that one tiny detail of it being on the lips. Good luck, and happy kissing, however you get there.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 2:52 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 2:52 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
The best way to date is to be yourself. There have been some great responses, but ultimately, there is no point emulating other people or seek some elusive "chemistry" if you do not feel it.
The best people I've dated have learned how to be themselves. This sounds like a cliche, but is actually hard to achieve. By being yourself, I don't mean the "you" in ratty pajamas drinking milk out of the carton, but the "you" you are among close friends who you KNOW already love you, and who you already love. You are relaxed, comfortable, respectful yet not overly so. You aren't deliberately hiding anything to be mysterious, or forcing yourself to show off, or trying to be smooth or romantic -- unless that is exactly who you are.
With the best daters, you get an impression of their personality very quickly. They can be casual or formal, witty or calm, sincere or cheesy or reserved. They can be nervous or awkward -- because dating can be nerve-wracking! -- but knows that feeling this way is perfectly normal, so they acknowledge it, and then it turns into a moment of real connection.
To date is to gently drop the walls we hold around us, that protect us from "prying" strangers. Have you ever invited people you liked over to your place for dinner, for the first time? You have tidied and cleaned, you have prepared the food and the wine, and now you are ready to be a good host and guide them into your life, all the while honoring the fact that you do not know them yet, nor they you, but that you'd like to.
You sound like a cerebral person who does not pay particular attention to the physical or emotional aspect of life. If you want to date people who are, you would need to start paying attention to these things in all parts of your life in order for it to show up naturally as you date. Until that happens, just be the best you you can currently be, and that will be fine.
The trick is to understand that there is no "rejection" in dating. Just people who met, did their best to get to know each other while trying to be genuine, and didn't really feel a connection. And that is OK. So don't let these things get you down, make you feel like a failure or that there is something wrong with you. There isn't. You just need to find someone who appreciates you exactly as you are, that is all.
Good luck.
posted by enlivener at 3:11 AM on May 17, 2013 [11 favorites]
The best people I've dated have learned how to be themselves. This sounds like a cliche, but is actually hard to achieve. By being yourself, I don't mean the "you" in ratty pajamas drinking milk out of the carton, but the "you" you are among close friends who you KNOW already love you, and who you already love. You are relaxed, comfortable, respectful yet not overly so. You aren't deliberately hiding anything to be mysterious, or forcing yourself to show off, or trying to be smooth or romantic -- unless that is exactly who you are.
With the best daters, you get an impression of their personality very quickly. They can be casual or formal, witty or calm, sincere or cheesy or reserved. They can be nervous or awkward -- because dating can be nerve-wracking! -- but knows that feeling this way is perfectly normal, so they acknowledge it, and then it turns into a moment of real connection.
To date is to gently drop the walls we hold around us, that protect us from "prying" strangers. Have you ever invited people you liked over to your place for dinner, for the first time? You have tidied and cleaned, you have prepared the food and the wine, and now you are ready to be a good host and guide them into your life, all the while honoring the fact that you do not know them yet, nor they you, but that you'd like to.
You sound like a cerebral person who does not pay particular attention to the physical or emotional aspect of life. If you want to date people who are, you would need to start paying attention to these things in all parts of your life in order for it to show up naturally as you date. Until that happens, just be the best you you can currently be, and that will be fine.
The trick is to understand that there is no "rejection" in dating. Just people who met, did their best to get to know each other while trying to be genuine, and didn't really feel a connection. And that is OK. So don't let these things get you down, make you feel like a failure or that there is something wrong with you. There isn't. You just need to find someone who appreciates you exactly as you are, that is all.
Good luck.
posted by enlivener at 3:11 AM on May 17, 2013 [11 favorites]
Physical contact should be a give and take, like a conversation. Make an overture. If the other person responds positively, feel free to make a bolder overture in a few minutes. If at any point they demure, back off*. Continue until you are both naked and sweaty.
*It doesn't have to be forever. My partner tried to French kiss me at the end of our first date (after increasing physical contact over the course of the date) and in my surprise, I less-than-graciously told him he went too far. But that didn't mean I didn't like him or want him to stick his tongue in my mouth someday, in the future. ;)
posted by peacrow at 3:20 AM on May 17, 2013
*It doesn't have to be forever. My partner tried to French kiss me at the end of our first date (after increasing physical contact over the course of the date) and in my surprise, I less-than-graciously told him he went too far. But that didn't mean I didn't like him or want him to stick his tongue in my mouth someday, in the future. ;)
posted by peacrow at 3:20 AM on May 17, 2013
I can remember feeling exactly the way you describe. A couple of things that helped:
1) Telegraph's phrase 'progressive invasion of personal space' is a really elegant description. If something's going well, *and* you're both attracted to one another, what tends to happen is that you find yourself sitting gradually closer to the other person. You might do this automatically if you're drinking (I was surprised to find I did, but maybe you don't. That's okay. It's definitely hard to do sober, at least at first.) If the other person does this on their own, great! If they don't, they're either not attracted to you (ah well) or they are, but they're expecting you to make the moves (in which case, this is too high-level for right now. Give it a few practice relationships).
2) When a date is really going well, it's like you're with friends. Think about how you interact with your friends - I'm not saying dates *should* feel like that, but when they do it's a great sign. At that point, it's actually difficult to mess things up - you can find some context to hold their hand, look them in eye, and try to kiss them. You're like 70% to succeed no matter how badly you do it (my first attempts were plenty bad).
3) If I could give one piece of advice to me-back-when-I-felt-this-way, it'd be "for heaven's sake just kiss someone, it doesn't matter who". This stuff is just really really hard, and you need to level up, RPG-style. Remove the filter that says "is this person good enough to kiss" until you're skilled enough at this stuff that it's useful.
4) All that 'thunderbolt from the heavens' stuff? Happens for some people, doesn't happen for others. If it doesn't, that's pretty normal.
posted by piato at 3:38 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
1) Telegraph's phrase 'progressive invasion of personal space' is a really elegant description. If something's going well, *and* you're both attracted to one another, what tends to happen is that you find yourself sitting gradually closer to the other person. You might do this automatically if you're drinking (I was surprised to find I did, but maybe you don't. That's okay. It's definitely hard to do sober, at least at first.) If the other person does this on their own, great! If they don't, they're either not attracted to you (ah well) or they are, but they're expecting you to make the moves (in which case, this is too high-level for right now. Give it a few practice relationships).
2) When a date is really going well, it's like you're with friends. Think about how you interact with your friends - I'm not saying dates *should* feel like that, but when they do it's a great sign. At that point, it's actually difficult to mess things up - you can find some context to hold their hand, look them in eye, and try to kiss them. You're like 70% to succeed no matter how badly you do it (my first attempts were plenty bad).
3) If I could give one piece of advice to me-back-when-I-felt-this-way, it'd be "for heaven's sake just kiss someone, it doesn't matter who". This stuff is just really really hard, and you need to level up, RPG-style. Remove the filter that says "is this person good enough to kiss" until you're skilled enough at this stuff that it's useful.
4) All that 'thunderbolt from the heavens' stuff? Happens for some people, doesn't happen for others. If it doesn't, that's pretty normal.
posted by piato at 3:38 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Generally you progressively invade their personal space. Immediately stop if they don't seem enthused at every stage of the game. If they are enthused, continue to escalate these invasions until it's mouth to mouth contact.
Exactly. I'm nervous to recommend this because I see "pickup artists" recommend touching women as a way to make them attracted to you. When they go ahead and do this to women who aren't attracted to them, it can be really upsetting and angering.
But when someone is *already* attracted to you, that's how you get from talking to making out.
How can you tell if someone is attracted to you and welcomes your touches? There's no foolproof sign, so that's why it's best to start with really small, minor touches, like bumping arms and things like that. If the person touches you back, that's a really good sign. If they pull back, move away, that's a sign to stop and not proceed further. If they just freeze that could go either way. If they freeze, it's best not to keep pushing ahead.
I don't have any video of my past "boundary crossings" but I will try to describe them. Most of these are from teenage/early 20's years.
-In high school, I met this guy from the neighborhood and one night he called and asked me if I wanted to take a walk. We walked to this park where it was dark and sat down on a bench and talked. We talked for upwards of an hour, and the conversation trailed off, but we both just kept sitting there. We were sitting pretty close and eventually I just leaned over and kissed him.
-Also in high school, this guy friend and I (who my friends assured me tooootally liked me) decided to take a nighttime drive together in my parents' minivan. We parked, once more, in a park, and had a conversation which eventually trailed off awkwardly after a while. Our car seats were separate and like 10 feet apart. It would be impossible to make out, argh! Then I blurted out, "do you want to go to the backseat?" He said, "yes!" Careful with this one; being a girl, I think it's easier for me to get away with being that forward.
-In college I went out with this guy a few times, but we were both so bashful we did not even hug at the end of our dates. On our third or fourth date we went back to his place and sat on the sofa together talking and listening to music. Again, we were sitting pretty close but we were both super shy about it. Gradually we let our hands bump into each other. Then, after a looong time, we started holding hands. Finally I could not handle the awkwardness anymore and I kissed him.
- A few years later I was on vacation and staying at a youth hostel where I met a group of fun people, one of whom I had my eye on. We had all hung out a few times but I was getting impatient. So we all went out to this bar and got seats around a table, and I picked up a chair and carried it all the way around the table to where this guy was sitting and put it down next to him, which was my way of being a little blatant about my interest. We talked the whole time and when everyone was walking back, we were walking next to each other, really close, and kept bumping into each other. Then he said something like, "I get all tingly every time you bump into me." So I bumped into him like 3 or 4 more times and he finally stopped short and kissed me.
-I had gone to the apartment of an Italian friend, supposedly because he was going to help me with this translation, which I actually did need, but mostly because I was interested in him. He made dinner and we had some wine and then we were going to work on the translation. After we were done he asked if I wanted to see some photos on his laptop. Again, we were sitting really close together and had a lot of arm/hand bumping. As the night went on we had our arms pretty much pressed against each other, shoulder to shoulder. But this was another occasion where I felt really shy, because I felt like he might be out of my league. He was also shy but luckily he kept drinking! We got to the end of the photos and I wasn't sure if anything was going to happen or not. It was late and he had already finished helping me with what I supposedly needed so I wasn't sure if I should politely take my leave. So I said something like, "well, that was great, and thank you so much for helping me" and leaned over and gave him a hug. While I was hugging him, he turned his face into my hair and kissed me. I froze, and he paused, and then kissed me again on my hair/face. Then we were making out.
-Oddly enough, quite a while later, I had another Italian friend make the exact same move. Could it be a coincidence, or is it an Italian thing, I have wondered? Again in a car. I had given him a ride home, and we ended up talking in the car for a while. I could tell he wanted to make a move but I wasn't sure if I was interested or not. Finally he said goodnight, I leaned over to give him a hug, and he did the exact same "kiss the hair/face while hugging, pause, kiss again" move. For the record, even though in this case I wasn't very into it, I think that's a pretty good move.
-I was out on a first date with a guy I had known for a while. We went to dinner, again bumped into a few times while walking from there to a bar, sat really close to each other on a bench seat at the bar. Again bumped arms and hands, then started holding hands. Apparently few things make me feel more awkward than holding hands with someone I am really attracted to but haven't kissed yet, because despite being really nervous I was propelled to kiss him pretty much immediately after we started holding hands. I also think the hand holding is a pretty good move. It's pretty non-invasive. And if you hold her hand for a while and she doesn't pull away, I think that's a good sign for trying for a kiss.
Thinking back through these it seems like there have also been major themes as far as location, which I wasn't thinking at all about at first. Sitting close next to each other, whether it's a couch, or a bench. Somewhere that's private and/or dark.
posted by cairdeas at 3:41 AM on May 17, 2013 [10 favorites]
Exactly. I'm nervous to recommend this because I see "pickup artists" recommend touching women as a way to make them attracted to you. When they go ahead and do this to women who aren't attracted to them, it can be really upsetting and angering.
But when someone is *already* attracted to you, that's how you get from talking to making out.
How can you tell if someone is attracted to you and welcomes your touches? There's no foolproof sign, so that's why it's best to start with really small, minor touches, like bumping arms and things like that. If the person touches you back, that's a really good sign. If they pull back, move away, that's a sign to stop and not proceed further. If they just freeze that could go either way. If they freeze, it's best not to keep pushing ahead.
I don't have any video of my past "boundary crossings" but I will try to describe them. Most of these are from teenage/early 20's years.
-In high school, I met this guy from the neighborhood and one night he called and asked me if I wanted to take a walk. We walked to this park where it was dark and sat down on a bench and talked. We talked for upwards of an hour, and the conversation trailed off, but we both just kept sitting there. We were sitting pretty close and eventually I just leaned over and kissed him.
-Also in high school, this guy friend and I (who my friends assured me tooootally liked me) decided to take a nighttime drive together in my parents' minivan. We parked, once more, in a park, and had a conversation which eventually trailed off awkwardly after a while. Our car seats were separate and like 10 feet apart. It would be impossible to make out, argh! Then I blurted out, "do you want to go to the backseat?" He said, "yes!" Careful with this one; being a girl, I think it's easier for me to get away with being that forward.
-In college I went out with this guy a few times, but we were both so bashful we did not even hug at the end of our dates. On our third or fourth date we went back to his place and sat on the sofa together talking and listening to music. Again, we were sitting pretty close but we were both super shy about it. Gradually we let our hands bump into each other. Then, after a looong time, we started holding hands. Finally I could not handle the awkwardness anymore and I kissed him.
- A few years later I was on vacation and staying at a youth hostel where I met a group of fun people, one of whom I had my eye on. We had all hung out a few times but I was getting impatient. So we all went out to this bar and got seats around a table, and I picked up a chair and carried it all the way around the table to where this guy was sitting and put it down next to him, which was my way of being a little blatant about my interest. We talked the whole time and when everyone was walking back, we were walking next to each other, really close, and kept bumping into each other. Then he said something like, "I get all tingly every time you bump into me." So I bumped into him like 3 or 4 more times and he finally stopped short and kissed me.
-I had gone to the apartment of an Italian friend, supposedly because he was going to help me with this translation, which I actually did need, but mostly because I was interested in him. He made dinner and we had some wine and then we were going to work on the translation. After we were done he asked if I wanted to see some photos on his laptop. Again, we were sitting really close together and had a lot of arm/hand bumping. As the night went on we had our arms pretty much pressed against each other, shoulder to shoulder. But this was another occasion where I felt really shy, because I felt like he might be out of my league. He was also shy but luckily he kept drinking! We got to the end of the photos and I wasn't sure if anything was going to happen or not. It was late and he had already finished helping me with what I supposedly needed so I wasn't sure if I should politely take my leave. So I said something like, "well, that was great, and thank you so much for helping me" and leaned over and gave him a hug. While I was hugging him, he turned his face into my hair and kissed me. I froze, and he paused, and then kissed me again on my hair/face. Then we were making out.
-Oddly enough, quite a while later, I had another Italian friend make the exact same move. Could it be a coincidence, or is it an Italian thing, I have wondered? Again in a car. I had given him a ride home, and we ended up talking in the car for a while. I could tell he wanted to make a move but I wasn't sure if I was interested or not. Finally he said goodnight, I leaned over to give him a hug, and he did the exact same "kiss the hair/face while hugging, pause, kiss again" move. For the record, even though in this case I wasn't very into it, I think that's a pretty good move.
-I was out on a first date with a guy I had known for a while. We went to dinner, again bumped into a few times while walking from there to a bar, sat really close to each other on a bench seat at the bar. Again bumped arms and hands, then started holding hands. Apparently few things make me feel more awkward than holding hands with someone I am really attracted to but haven't kissed yet, because despite being really nervous I was propelled to kiss him pretty much immediately after we started holding hands. I also think the hand holding is a pretty good move. It's pretty non-invasive. And if you hold her hand for a while and she doesn't pull away, I think that's a good sign for trying for a kiss.
Thinking back through these it seems like there have also been major themes as far as location, which I wasn't thinking at all about at first. Sitting close next to each other, whether it's a couch, or a bench. Somewhere that's private and/or dark.
posted by cairdeas at 3:41 AM on May 17, 2013 [10 favorites]
Oh! Remembered another one. Again, a friend and I were sitting next to each other talking after our first "date-like" dinner together. Again, I was super nervous. Again, we got to a suspense-laden pause in conversation. Then, he reached over and gently tucked my hair behind my ear, but kind of kept his hand there. I looked into his eyes and smiled, so he went for it. Another first-kiss move that I thought was pretty good.
posted by cairdeas at 3:53 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by cairdeas at 3:53 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
And one more thought:
I know you're supposed to flirt and try to make the girl laugh
I totally don't think either of those things are necessary. And if you feel really uncomfortable doing it, it could just make things harder. I don't think I've ever been out with a guy who MADE me laugh, like he was telling jokes and being a comedian. In fact I might find that a little too perform-ey and be a little irritated. If I'm out with someone and we're laughing it's just because we're having a good conversation and a good time. And even at that, you can absolutely have a good conversation and a good time without that. I know that a lot of the people I've been really drawn to have been serious people. Even a lot of the most-lusted-after heroes in romances have been non-flirting non-comedians (Mr. Darcy anyone? And oh man, look at how much fan fiction there is about Professor Snape.). So I don't think you need to worry about doing this if it makes you feel awkward or uncomfortable.
posted by cairdeas at 4:18 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
I know you're supposed to flirt and try to make the girl laugh
I totally don't think either of those things are necessary. And if you feel really uncomfortable doing it, it could just make things harder. I don't think I've ever been out with a guy who MADE me laugh, like he was telling jokes and being a comedian. In fact I might find that a little too perform-ey and be a little irritated. If I'm out with someone and we're laughing it's just because we're having a good conversation and a good time. And even at that, you can absolutely have a good conversation and a good time without that. I know that a lot of the people I've been really drawn to have been serious people. Even a lot of the most-lusted-after heroes in romances have been non-flirting non-comedians (Mr. Darcy anyone? And oh man, look at how much fan fiction there is about Professor Snape.). So I don't think you need to worry about doing this if it makes you feel awkward or uncomfortable.
posted by cairdeas at 4:18 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've heard mixed opinions about this, but I'm all for verbal directness. Pause, lingering eye contact, a half smile, and "I'd really like to kiss you right now" or "Can I kiss you?" Works for/on me.
This has worked intensely well for me over the years. I'm all about the directness. Usually I did a "Well, the date is winding down. Shall we kiss now?" and I was never turned down, not once. I even did the direct request with my fiance. We had been at a party together and ended up spending the night talking and clearly getting closer. I eventually said, "Okay, I'm going to call a spade a spade. I have feelings for you so I think we should have a test to see if there is something here. I think we need to kiss." He agreed. We kissed. It was incredible.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:58 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
This has worked intensely well for me over the years. I'm all about the directness. Usually I did a "Well, the date is winding down. Shall we kiss now?" and I was never turned down, not once. I even did the direct request with my fiance. We had been at a party together and ended up spending the night talking and clearly getting closer. I eventually said, "Okay, I'm going to call a spade a spade. I have feelings for you so I think we should have a test to see if there is something here. I think we need to kiss." He agreed. We kissed. It was incredible.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:58 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Step 1: Find a woman that you can't imagine not kissing.
Step 2: Talk her up on the date. Admit to being a bit clueless. Ask her for direction.
Step 3: Follow her direction but add a twist that is your own, so she doesn't assume that you are a soulless robot who only responds to direct orders.
The movie Hitch will Will Smith has some first date kissing pointers that are quite nice.
The main thing to remember is that you aren't trying for a kiss or a sexual treat, you are trying for a connection with another wonderful human being. You aren't going to connect with everyone. If we all had chemistry and connected with everyone, going to the grocery store would be a lot more fun. Keep looking for that special someone. Stay open to the possibility that she may not fit into the mold that you dreamed up. Once you find one another, the kiss will happen. There isn't anything that could stop it, if it's meant to be. Always carry breath mints.
posted by myselfasme at 5:37 AM on May 17, 2013
Step 2: Talk her up on the date. Admit to being a bit clueless. Ask her for direction.
Step 3: Follow her direction but add a twist that is your own, so she doesn't assume that you are a soulless robot who only responds to direct orders.
The movie Hitch will Will Smith has some first date kissing pointers that are quite nice.
The main thing to remember is that you aren't trying for a kiss or a sexual treat, you are trying for a connection with another wonderful human being. You aren't going to connect with everyone. If we all had chemistry and connected with everyone, going to the grocery store would be a lot more fun. Keep looking for that special someone. Stay open to the possibility that she may not fit into the mold that you dreamed up. Once you find one another, the kiss will happen. There isn't anything that could stop it, if it's meant to be. Always carry breath mints.
posted by myselfasme at 5:37 AM on May 17, 2013
A technique a friend of mine used to use was, at a comfortable time during the date, he would say--I think we should kiss now so it won't be awkward when I walk you to your door. I thought it was genius, because I always hated the weirdness when saying good-bye at my door. You know the drill--handshake or no, hug/not hug, peck on the cheek/kiss on the lips, etc.....
posted by PJMoore at 5:56 AM on May 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by PJMoore at 5:56 AM on May 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
(Also, quick thought re: videos - Reality TV would work really well here! If you youtube for 'Big Brother First Kiss', you get tons of good matches.)
posted by piato at 6:01 AM on May 17, 2013
posted by piato at 6:01 AM on May 17, 2013
The Russian spy analogy in this post is basically dead on. (Ignore the rest of it and the author's beliefs about it, though. The author thinks that's the creepy solution, when in fact it's a beautiful illustration of how flirting works.)
posted by 168 at 6:02 AM on May 17, 2013
posted by 168 at 6:02 AM on May 17, 2013
Here is a thing: I would not want to kiss a guy who "found most people boring" and rationalized his inability to tell people apart as "I am not interested enough to bother", the way you describe yourself doing in your other questions. I suspect that with such a person either his beliefs would show through, making him seem either manipulative ("I just want sex! And the first step is kissing! Even though you, like most people, are boring!") or just plain creepy. If I did get manipulated into kissing such a dude, I would feel pretty betrayed and horrible afterward and it would not lead to me wanting further kissing/sex/relationship stuff.
However! I find myself wondering if there isn't something else going on here. (This will eventually lead round to some thoughts on kissing.)
How are things on the "other people are too boring to tell apart" front, anyway? Have you been able to work on that? I ask because I have at times had trouble telling people apart, and it seemed to me that it was because they were boring/stupid/"mainstream"/had bad value and thus were interchangeable. Now, sometimes they were boring, etc, but the issue was really that I had some very, very deep-rooted anxiety and trauma in my head, and a large chunk of my brain was occupied with keeping that under control - such good control, in fact, that I found deep-seated anxiety and post-trauma stuff to be completely normal. So I did not have the processing power, if you will, to devote emotional energy to noticing people, getting invested in conversations, remembering and then being curious about what they thought about their new bike, etc. Once I started (and it's "started", not finished) dealing with the other stuff, I suddenly had more intellectual energy, and things that had seemed such a heavy burden of boredom became really, really easy - it wasn't even that I was suddenly super-interested in what people did last weekend, it just came naturally.
So anyway. I wonder about you - do you have some past history of trauma, anxiety, weird socialization, long-term family weirdness or some kind of behavioral challenge like aspergers? Have you by any chance learned to work around that so well that you've pushed it totally to one side [since you're obviously successful in your career or grad program]? Note that I am not saying "deal with your anxiety and you will find your co-worker's thoughts on her new hairstylist mesmerizing!"; I am saying "deal with your anxiety [if that's an issue] and you will find that talking to people becomes easier and more automatic".
I also wonder about how you feel about girls. You describe it like you have this vague feeling like you should want to kiss them, or vague feeling that you in a generalized way want to kiss some girls, probably, because it is alleged to be fun and leads to sex. [I am assuming that I'm getting something sort of accurate from your description.] You're not describing any of the things I recognize from wanting to kiss people or from a potential kissing situation - physical attraction, a sense of complicity, a feeling of "I would really like to be kissing you right now instead of chatting". It's the sense of complicity that has been key for me - it builds up or appears, and you do learn to recognize it.
What I'm wondering is - if this does in fact relate to your problem - if you would find it helpful to think more about girls, question the kind of people you're attracted to. I say this because I personally have had a lot of trouble sorting out 1. People who are good-looking such that I like to look at them; 2. People I feel like I should be attracted to because they are smart, cute, like me, etc ; 3. People I am "attracted" to because they replicate patterns of family trauma; and 4. People I actually viscerally want to make out with. I have also found that I sometimes repress my attraction to people because I am anxious or feel that they are not appropriate objects for a whole range of reasons. Now, obviously just because I am attracted to someone does not mean that I am going to make out with them, but it has helped to clarify things. And it does mean that I can recognize "I want to kiss you" feelings better, and once you recognize those, it becomes - automatically - a lot easier to do all the excellent kissing advice given above.
Another thing, just because It Has Happened To Me: If you had a constrained and awkward youth, consider whether you may also be burying some gay or bisexual feelings. Not in some kind of conscious "oh I REFUSE to be attracted to men, in the closet I shall stay!" way, but more of a "I am in an anxiety-provoking environment where I have to spend a lot of energy just dealing with the world, I do not have much emotional energy to consider non-standard attractions and I am thus just steered down the easier path". This can happen - it happened to me!
Again, doing some internal work so that I was able to be more present in the moment has helped me a huge amount. I can recognize when people are attracted to me at least some of the time, I can read social cues a lot better. It's more like learning to cook than learning a Specific Kissing Technique; I no longer think about "how the hell do I know when the cake is done?" because it's so automatic that I don't even really consciously think about it.
Which is not to disparage the Specific Kissing Techniques given above, just that some of them may work better if you develop a good infrastructure along with deploying them.
posted by Frowner at 6:28 AM on May 17, 2013 [14 favorites]
However! I find myself wondering if there isn't something else going on here. (This will eventually lead round to some thoughts on kissing.)
How are things on the "other people are too boring to tell apart" front, anyway? Have you been able to work on that? I ask because I have at times had trouble telling people apart, and it seemed to me that it was because they were boring/stupid/"mainstream"/had bad value and thus were interchangeable. Now, sometimes they were boring, etc, but the issue was really that I had some very, very deep-rooted anxiety and trauma in my head, and a large chunk of my brain was occupied with keeping that under control - such good control, in fact, that I found deep-seated anxiety and post-trauma stuff to be completely normal. So I did not have the processing power, if you will, to devote emotional energy to noticing people, getting invested in conversations, remembering and then being curious about what they thought about their new bike, etc. Once I started (and it's "started", not finished) dealing with the other stuff, I suddenly had more intellectual energy, and things that had seemed such a heavy burden of boredom became really, really easy - it wasn't even that I was suddenly super-interested in what people did last weekend, it just came naturally.
So anyway. I wonder about you - do you have some past history of trauma, anxiety, weird socialization, long-term family weirdness or some kind of behavioral challenge like aspergers? Have you by any chance learned to work around that so well that you've pushed it totally to one side [since you're obviously successful in your career or grad program]? Note that I am not saying "deal with your anxiety and you will find your co-worker's thoughts on her new hairstylist mesmerizing!"; I am saying "deal with your anxiety [if that's an issue] and you will find that talking to people becomes easier and more automatic".
I also wonder about how you feel about girls. You describe it like you have this vague feeling like you should want to kiss them, or vague feeling that you in a generalized way want to kiss some girls, probably, because it is alleged to be fun and leads to sex. [I am assuming that I'm getting something sort of accurate from your description.] You're not describing any of the things I recognize from wanting to kiss people or from a potential kissing situation - physical attraction, a sense of complicity, a feeling of "I would really like to be kissing you right now instead of chatting". It's the sense of complicity that has been key for me - it builds up or appears, and you do learn to recognize it.
What I'm wondering is - if this does in fact relate to your problem - if you would find it helpful to think more about girls, question the kind of people you're attracted to. I say this because I personally have had a lot of trouble sorting out 1. People who are good-looking such that I like to look at them; 2. People I feel like I should be attracted to because they are smart, cute, like me, etc ; 3. People I am "attracted" to because they replicate patterns of family trauma; and 4. People I actually viscerally want to make out with. I have also found that I sometimes repress my attraction to people because I am anxious or feel that they are not appropriate objects for a whole range of reasons. Now, obviously just because I am attracted to someone does not mean that I am going to make out with them, but it has helped to clarify things. And it does mean that I can recognize "I want to kiss you" feelings better, and once you recognize those, it becomes - automatically - a lot easier to do all the excellent kissing advice given above.
Another thing, just because It Has Happened To Me: If you had a constrained and awkward youth, consider whether you may also be burying some gay or bisexual feelings. Not in some kind of conscious "oh I REFUSE to be attracted to men, in the closet I shall stay!" way, but more of a "I am in an anxiety-provoking environment where I have to spend a lot of energy just dealing with the world, I do not have much emotional energy to consider non-standard attractions and I am thus just steered down the easier path". This can happen - it happened to me!
Again, doing some internal work so that I was able to be more present in the moment has helped me a huge amount. I can recognize when people are attracted to me at least some of the time, I can read social cues a lot better. It's more like learning to cook than learning a Specific Kissing Technique; I no longer think about "how the hell do I know when the cake is done?" because it's so automatic that I don't even really consciously think about it.
Which is not to disparage the Specific Kissing Techniques given above, just that some of them may work better if you develop a good infrastructure along with deploying them.
posted by Frowner at 6:28 AM on May 17, 2013 [14 favorites]
Alcohol helps. Not so much that either of you are sloppy, but enough to lower your inhibitions a little. If dinner goes well, try asking her to join you for a drink at a fun bar. One that has dancing would be great.
posted by bananafish at 7:38 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by bananafish at 7:38 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
You can tell I never really dated without alcohol. I'm not sure how those non drinking types did it.
posted by bananafish at 7:40 AM on May 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by bananafish at 7:40 AM on May 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm going to go against the crowd here and say that the traditional way that people go from conversation-->physical intimacy has a lot of inherent problems and you have an excellent opportunity here to learn a better method. There is a lot of misunderstanding possible when you combine desire+a total lack of explicit communication, especially if you add alcohol. Most people rely on "just guessing" what the other person's body language means and it leads to lots of uncomfortable situations (did that little shift to the left mean she wants to kiss me? hm, he lowered his eyes, does that mean I'm doing this wrong? etc etc). Somehow we expect people getting into relationships to be able to talk about their families, their jobs, their favorite color, etc, but we don't think anyone should talk about anything sexual.
So, I do agree with Salamander that saying "I would really like to kiss you" can be awkward, especially if you're with someone who's expecting you to do some kind of vague, mysterious body movement instead. But I think it's good practice, and can help you avoid further awkwardness later on, if you're not very good at reading people's minds.
posted by epanalepsis at 7:49 AM on May 17, 2013
So, I do agree with Salamander that saying "I would really like to kiss you" can be awkward, especially if you're with someone who's expecting you to do some kind of vague, mysterious body movement instead. But I think it's good practice, and can help you avoid further awkwardness later on, if you're not very good at reading people's minds.
posted by epanalepsis at 7:49 AM on May 17, 2013
I call those little "invasions" of personal space explained up above as "plausibly deniable escalation." It gives you a chance to save face and back the f off if there is hesitation in your dates' part.
STEP 1: "Cool ring, is there a story behind it?" ... Touch hand.
Tell a joke, or point something out and touch shoulder.
Skee ball, mini-golf, karaoke or bowling? Opportunity for ironic high fives.
Sitting on a bench? Sit close and touch knees. Or make up an excuse to sit on the same side of a booth, "it's kind of loud in here. Mind if I sit next to you?"
STEP 2: Do one of those things above (well, maybe not the high five or something you've already said), but keep your arm around them or keep holding hands while going for a walk.
STEP 3: Now that you're already very physically close, look for go-ahead signs for kissing. If all else fails, just ask. Even the people who find that awkward will give you a straight answer but most people find this endearing. (I'd rather date the latter group anyway. Life is awkward. Partnership and marriage? SUPER awkward.) Goodbyes are an opportunity to lean in or ask because kissing goodbye is part of our culturally shared dating script.
If you dig around AskMe, I know variations of this question have come up before. The SIRC Guide is pretty invaluable: http://www.sirc.org/publik/flirt.html
posted by Skwirl at 8:30 AM on May 17, 2013
STEP 1: "Cool ring, is there a story behind it?" ... Touch hand.
Tell a joke, or point something out and touch shoulder.
Skee ball, mini-golf, karaoke or bowling? Opportunity for ironic high fives.
Sitting on a bench? Sit close and touch knees. Or make up an excuse to sit on the same side of a booth, "it's kind of loud in here. Mind if I sit next to you?"
STEP 2: Do one of those things above (well, maybe not the high five or something you've already said), but keep your arm around them or keep holding hands while going for a walk.
STEP 3: Now that you're already very physically close, look for go-ahead signs for kissing. If all else fails, just ask. Even the people who find that awkward will give you a straight answer but most people find this endearing. (I'd rather date the latter group anyway. Life is awkward. Partnership and marriage? SUPER awkward.) Goodbyes are an opportunity to lean in or ask because kissing goodbye is part of our culturally shared dating script.
If you dig around AskMe, I know variations of this question have come up before. The SIRC Guide is pretty invaluable: http://www.sirc.org/publik/flirt.html
posted by Skwirl at 8:30 AM on May 17, 2013
Agree with Sara C. and also the questions upthread about whether you are in fact attracted to the women you've dated so far. I know it isn't smooth or whatever, but hey I'm not a smooth person and smoothness is not something that matters to me in a partner, so the following awkward steps have worked just fine for me:
1) Establish rapport organically simply through conversation and time (patience). It helps that I have never been in the whole "meet a stranger for the first time with the premise of mutual romantic hope" type dating situation, but just, you know, met people while going through life and agreed to hang out more. Honestly that dating situation feels really alien to me and it's one reason I cross my fingers my husband doesn't die or whatever because now that we're older those organic friendly situations are less easy to just stumble upon, and I can't really imagine dating. So. (Make of that what you will.)
2) That shared bond combined with just finding each other attractive (whether from the start or because we've gotten to know each other) ----> lots of inadvertent signs. Maybe they aren't instinctive to you, but for me and the guys I've known it's stuff like smiling like a big dork when you see each other and your pupils getting huge when you look at each other and doing that whole shy thing where one of you steals a glance at the other when you think they're not looking, the other person looks and sees you looking at them, and that makes you look away in a sort of dart-like fashion with a nervous little smile and then you're both doing the nervous little smile thing. I hear that "subtle invasion of space/seemingly innocuous touching" thing (stuff like plucking lint off their sweater or them pushing your hair back from your face or them touching your arm or grabbing onto you during scary parts in a movie) is big, though it's never been in my experience (too shy!).
3) This is where any pretense of smoothness gets obliterated, and probably a lot of people wrinkle their nose but: one of us just comes right out and says something awkward and terrified but direct (I just told my husband flat out after over a month of unbearable sexual tension that I dug him and I was feeling weird all the time and did he like me too 'cause g'ah it was excruciating). Of course, not everyone is down with this. But I am, and the guys I like are too, and it's awkward for a second but then there's lots of kissing and relief and everyone knows where they stand. Just a possibility, depending on you, the people you like, and how long you've been around each other and how unbearable the tension gets on both sides (which tends to be a sign you're on the same page and it might go great).
posted by ifjuly at 9:02 AM on May 17, 2013
1) Establish rapport organically simply through conversation and time (patience). It helps that I have never been in the whole "meet a stranger for the first time with the premise of mutual romantic hope" type dating situation, but just, you know, met people while going through life and agreed to hang out more. Honestly that dating situation feels really alien to me and it's one reason I cross my fingers my husband doesn't die or whatever because now that we're older those organic friendly situations are less easy to just stumble upon, and I can't really imagine dating. So. (Make of that what you will.)
2) That shared bond combined with just finding each other attractive (whether from the start or because we've gotten to know each other) ----> lots of inadvertent signs. Maybe they aren't instinctive to you, but for me and the guys I've known it's stuff like smiling like a big dork when you see each other and your pupils getting huge when you look at each other and doing that whole shy thing where one of you steals a glance at the other when you think they're not looking, the other person looks and sees you looking at them, and that makes you look away in a sort of dart-like fashion with a nervous little smile and then you're both doing the nervous little smile thing. I hear that "subtle invasion of space/seemingly innocuous touching" thing (stuff like plucking lint off their sweater or them pushing your hair back from your face or them touching your arm or grabbing onto you during scary parts in a movie) is big, though it's never been in my experience (too shy!).
3) This is where any pretense of smoothness gets obliterated, and probably a lot of people wrinkle their nose but: one of us just comes right out and says something awkward and terrified but direct (I just told my husband flat out after over a month of unbearable sexual tension that I dug him and I was feeling weird all the time and did he like me too 'cause g'ah it was excruciating). Of course, not everyone is down with this. But I am, and the guys I like are too, and it's awkward for a second but then there's lots of kissing and relief and everyone knows where they stand. Just a possibility, depending on you, the people you like, and how long you've been around each other and how unbearable the tension gets on both sides (which tends to be a sign you're on the same page and it might go great).
posted by ifjuly at 9:02 AM on May 17, 2013
Perhaps the traditional dinner-and-talk date isn't quite conductive to your needs - a kiss is a sign that you've struck some kind of deeper connection, and by the way you're describing your dates, it sounds like you're struggling to make one. As others have mentioned, you describe your dates as informational interviews than actual human interaction. Coupled with how you come off as a little awkward, perhaps a date where you're both actively doing something would be a better environment for you - amusement park, bowling, art class, etc? Perk is that you don't need to fish around as much for conversational points because you have a shared experience in which you're both participating in right now to talk about.
posted by Conspire at 9:41 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Conspire at 9:41 AM on May 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think it is important that you're actually attracted to the girls you're going on dates with. There is a big difference between "I would like to have sex" and "I would like to have sex with you". The girl you are with will be able to pick up on that difference, and no matter how 'correctly' you behave in trying to move it forward, chances are it just won't work out.
The movie Groundhog Day is actually a good resource for seeing the difference between things just clicking and things that don't, even though all the ingredients seem to be there. And the bonus is that it is the same couple, on the same date, over and over. If you can watch it and see the differences in how things go, maybe that will help you start being able to spot chemistry in real life.
I think being able to get out of your own head and just enjoy your time with a date is very important. Having a cocktail is one way to relax a little, but there are lots of other ways. Maybe start going on a few dates where your (private, secret) goal is to absolutely NOT kiss her NO MATTER WHAT. Make it verboten for yourself, completely off the table, so you can just hang out and get to know her without worrying about the right time to make a move. This could help you figure out if you even want to kiss her or if she really isn't your cuppa. It could also trigger a sense of desire, as so many out of reach things seem to do, which you could work with on your next date with her.
posted by Brody's chum at 9:50 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
The movie Groundhog Day is actually a good resource for seeing the difference between things just clicking and things that don't, even though all the ingredients seem to be there. And the bonus is that it is the same couple, on the same date, over and over. If you can watch it and see the differences in how things go, maybe that will help you start being able to spot chemistry in real life.
I think being able to get out of your own head and just enjoy your time with a date is very important. Having a cocktail is one way to relax a little, but there are lots of other ways. Maybe start going on a few dates where your (private, secret) goal is to absolutely NOT kiss her NO MATTER WHAT. Make it verboten for yourself, completely off the table, so you can just hang out and get to know her without worrying about the right time to make a move. This could help you figure out if you even want to kiss her or if she really isn't your cuppa. It could also trigger a sense of desire, as so many out of reach things seem to do, which you could work with on your next date with her.
posted by Brody's chum at 9:50 AM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
This isn't "actual footage of people dating," but I recommend you watch Annie Hall. Watching the dynamic between characters played by Woody Allen and Diane Keaton may inspire you. It's a great depiction of the awkwardness of getting to know someone you're interested in, and there's a famous scene in which they are having a conversation at Annie's apartment and subtitles show what they're actually thinking. And that "first kiss" occurs in a way that is funny and memorable and unique.
posted by Unified Theory at 3:13 PM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Unified Theory at 3:13 PM on May 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Watching movies at home on the couch with a girl is usually a nice place to initiate a kiss. The movie provides a nice distraction and there's no need to talk (it sounds like you may be talking and thinking too much, so a common distraction may help). Start by holding her hand or putting an arm around her shoulder. You'll be able to tell if she's into it by her reaction: she may squeeze your hand or stroke your arm and probably snuggle closer. Lean in a bit and when the tension is unbearable, just go for it.
Every girl I've known, friend or otherwise, laughs at the idea that you should ask "permission" to kiss. Might be a regional thing or other factor, but this seems to be a unanimous feeling in my experience. They see it (I'm told) as a sign of lacking confidence. Your mileage may vary! Good luck!
posted by The Hyacinth Girl at 6:24 PM on May 17, 2013
Every girl I've known, friend or otherwise, laughs at the idea that you should ask "permission" to kiss. Might be a regional thing or other factor, but this seems to be a unanimous feeling in my experience. They see it (I'm told) as a sign of lacking confidence. Your mileage may vary! Good luck!
posted by The Hyacinth Girl at 6:24 PM on May 17, 2013
You've gotten lots of great answers. I'm not sure why I'm compelled to throw my two cents in, other than I have some links that haven't been posted yet.
I honestly don't understand how "chemistry" works or what it means for "sparks to fly".
There are, in fact, explanations for this (pheromones). Given what we know of your personality, it might actually help knowing WHY. I highly recommend A General Theory of Love by Amini, Lannon, & Lewis. It may also help to study up on the physiological changes that occur during early sexual arousal (some of which I mention below) so that you know when it's happening to you (or her). If these things aren't happening for you (and you want them to), then you know and can proceed with therapy/medical treatment as needed.
When I go on a date it looks like this: This is what all dates look like - except some people are more or less interesting, and some people you just can't keep your hands off (or, if you can, you just part ways and go home)! You are either not attracted to these women, or you are expecting something like the Parting of the Red Sea, when in reality it's more like your bodies feel like they're made out of magnets - attracting sides out, so that you're being drawn together.
At what point are you supposed to...The point at which you can't NOT do it. What you're talking about is totally beside the point. You're looking for a physiological change... you find yourself standing really close together, gazing into each other eyes, heart racing, breath becomes more shallow... in this clip they are talking about a missing carburetor. The carburetor is not the point. I think you are looking for a firm scientific answer, and there isn't one. This stuff is messy.
I know you're supposed to flirt and try to make the girl laugh, but I'm not much good at doing this and when I try it comes across as wooden at best, creepy at worst.
Ah, then don't do it! It only works for a certain type of girl, and that type of girl is probably not who someone like you is going to click with anyway. Let it go. Just be you. "Supposed to" is pretty much a guaranteed way to make you feel like crap, regardless of what it is. Have you seen "Pleasantville"? The lesson at the end is that there IS no supposed to, we're all just making it up. Yeah, I get the imagery - super slick football player in bar, surrounded by laughing cheerleaders? Not for lots of people. Many of my first kisses were after intense all-night conversations (hmmm....all?); my goal was to be happily married - not popular - and I am (happily married, but not popular LOL). The guys I dated were probably a lot like you - sweet, brilliant, awkward. And FWIW, I never really "dated" - we were always friends first, who at some point couldn't not kiss, and then had a relationship. Think carefully about what your goals are here and why.
What I want is to see this process modeled. I would like to see actual footage of real people dating and crossing the boundary between "platonic small talk" and "romance".
That's the thing... you don't transition from platonic small talk to romance. The small talk is either inherently platonic or not, depending on how interested in and attracted to each other you are. Either talking about carburetors is just that, or you end up kissing. Carburetors are not the point... that the other person fills you with electricity, makes you week in the knees, your lips tingle, etc... THAT is the point.
Be patient. We have a friend (we are the same age as you) who was rather shy and quite religious and hadn't ever dated or shown interest in anyone. Ever. Privately, we wondered if he was perhaps asexual or struggling with non-hetero sexuality. Then he met someone - a girl - and they've been together for 2+ years and are very affectionate together and occasionally tease each other or make sexy jokes (like teasing him about his "hot ass" - he's SUPER scrawny). They're happy. Hang in there!
posted by jrobin276 at 5:38 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I honestly don't understand how "chemistry" works or what it means for "sparks to fly".
There are, in fact, explanations for this (pheromones). Given what we know of your personality, it might actually help knowing WHY. I highly recommend A General Theory of Love by Amini, Lannon, & Lewis. It may also help to study up on the physiological changes that occur during early sexual arousal (some of which I mention below) so that you know when it's happening to you (or her). If these things aren't happening for you (and you want them to), then you know and can proceed with therapy/medical treatment as needed.
When I go on a date it looks like this: This is what all dates look like - except some people are more or less interesting, and some people you just can't keep your hands off (or, if you can, you just part ways and go home)! You are either not attracted to these women, or you are expecting something like the Parting of the Red Sea, when in reality it's more like your bodies feel like they're made out of magnets - attracting sides out, so that you're being drawn together.
At what point are you supposed to...The point at which you can't NOT do it. What you're talking about is totally beside the point. You're looking for a physiological change... you find yourself standing really close together, gazing into each other eyes, heart racing, breath becomes more shallow... in this clip they are talking about a missing carburetor. The carburetor is not the point. I think you are looking for a firm scientific answer, and there isn't one. This stuff is messy.
I know you're supposed to flirt and try to make the girl laugh, but I'm not much good at doing this and when I try it comes across as wooden at best, creepy at worst.
Ah, then don't do it! It only works for a certain type of girl, and that type of girl is probably not who someone like you is going to click with anyway. Let it go. Just be you. "Supposed to" is pretty much a guaranteed way to make you feel like crap, regardless of what it is. Have you seen "Pleasantville"? The lesson at the end is that there IS no supposed to, we're all just making it up. Yeah, I get the imagery - super slick football player in bar, surrounded by laughing cheerleaders? Not for lots of people. Many of my first kisses were after intense all-night conversations (hmmm....all?); my goal was to be happily married - not popular - and I am (happily married, but not popular LOL). The guys I dated were probably a lot like you - sweet, brilliant, awkward. And FWIW, I never really "dated" - we were always friends first, who at some point couldn't not kiss, and then had a relationship. Think carefully about what your goals are here and why.
What I want is to see this process modeled. I would like to see actual footage of real people dating and crossing the boundary between "platonic small talk" and "romance".
That's the thing... you don't transition from platonic small talk to romance. The small talk is either inherently platonic or not, depending on how interested in and attracted to each other you are. Either talking about carburetors is just that, or you end up kissing. Carburetors are not the point... that the other person fills you with electricity, makes you week in the knees, your lips tingle, etc... THAT is the point.
Be patient. We have a friend (we are the same age as you) who was rather shy and quite religious and hadn't ever dated or shown interest in anyone. Ever. Privately, we wondered if he was perhaps asexual or struggling with non-hetero sexuality. Then he met someone - a girl - and they've been together for 2+ years and are very affectionate together and occasionally tease each other or make sexy jokes (like teasing him about his "hot ass" - he's SUPER scrawny). They're happy. Hang in there!
posted by jrobin276 at 5:38 PM on May 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
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If you're not sure where to start, previous AskMes for romance recommendations might help, or maybe a bundle like this one with a few good titles included. Or check Smart Bitches, Trashy Books.
posted by asperity at 7:45 PM on May 16, 2013 [6 favorites]