My feelings were hurt. Should I say anything at all?
May 13, 2013 2:49 PM Subscribe
I told my friend about an experience that caused me anxiety in the past. I felt that her responses were tone-deaf and hurtful. Was it? And should I say anything, even though the moment has passed? If so, what should I say?
I shared a well written and thoughtful post with my friend this afternoon. First, she responded to the article, "I don't understand why she was so scared of that guy. I wouldn't've been. He wasn't a threat -- he was a moron. Maybe it's because I know why guys do things like that."
I told my friend that I understood the author's fear. I also said that sometimes people who commit these acts go on to stalk their victims.
A year ago, a man followed me from my bus stop and stalked me for about a mile and a half. At some point, he approached me; though I walked away from him as quickly as I could, I didn't know what to do or where to go. I didn't want him to know where I lived, so I walked for miles through residential neighborhoods as he continued to follow me. Eventually I came across an outdoor party in someone's driveway/yard. I don't know why I did this -- again, I was completely paralyzed -- I went ahead and pretended to be part of the party. Poured myself some cold water, and stood in a circle of chatting people. After about ten minutes of very awkward conversation, I saw that the man had left. I left the party and walked back home.
Then she responded, "Good thing the BBQ happened, but why not call the cops?"
I'm not sure why I didn't call the cops. But I have some pretty severe anxiety. (I'm in therapy.) Also, once the whole thing was over I didn't feel up to going over it again with anyone else. I tried to explain myself and say it wasn't so simple. That I didn't know what he was going to do, and that I was just focused on getting away from him.
Then she said, "When you were at the bbq you knew what was going on and you were in a safe spot, that could be a good time to call."
I guess I tried to explain why I did what I did, but she offered possible solution after possible solution (lots of "you could have done ___"s) and after a while I just felt lousy over an event that happened three years ago. Finally, she changed the topic.
Perhaps I should've said something. I don't know. I feel like what she said was insensitive. If it was, what should I say?
I shared a well written and thoughtful post with my friend this afternoon. First, she responded to the article, "I don't understand why she was so scared of that guy. I wouldn't've been. He wasn't a threat -- he was a moron. Maybe it's because I know why guys do things like that."
I told my friend that I understood the author's fear. I also said that sometimes people who commit these acts go on to stalk their victims.
A year ago, a man followed me from my bus stop and stalked me for about a mile and a half. At some point, he approached me; though I walked away from him as quickly as I could, I didn't know what to do or where to go. I didn't want him to know where I lived, so I walked for miles through residential neighborhoods as he continued to follow me. Eventually I came across an outdoor party in someone's driveway/yard. I don't know why I did this -- again, I was completely paralyzed -- I went ahead and pretended to be part of the party. Poured myself some cold water, and stood in a circle of chatting people. After about ten minutes of very awkward conversation, I saw that the man had left. I left the party and walked back home.
Then she responded, "Good thing the BBQ happened, but why not call the cops?"
I'm not sure why I didn't call the cops. But I have some pretty severe anxiety. (I'm in therapy.) Also, once the whole thing was over I didn't feel up to going over it again with anyone else. I tried to explain myself and say it wasn't so simple. That I didn't know what he was going to do, and that I was just focused on getting away from him.
Then she said, "When you were at the bbq you knew what was going on and you were in a safe spot, that could be a good time to call."
I guess I tried to explain why I did what I did, but she offered possible solution after possible solution (lots of "you could have done ___"s) and after a while I just felt lousy over an event that happened three years ago. Finally, she changed the topic.
Perhaps I should've said something. I don't know. I feel like what she said was insensitive. If it was, what should I say?
Your friend listened, asked questions and offered some practical advice and moved on to a different topic when it was clear to them you were uncomfortable with how it was going. They may not have given you the empathy you wanted but that is a pretty good friend in my book.
posted by srboisvert at 2:58 PM on May 13, 2013 [25 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:58 PM on May 13, 2013 [25 favorites]
If you feel like your friend normally listens to you and responds thoughtfully, let this go. Everyone has bad days and she might be processing something that caused her to be less patient or understanding than usual.
Also, this incident was very high on your list of triggers. You say that one reason you didn't call the cops was because you didn't feel up to going over again. So talking to your friend about it already was fraught, because before you ever broached the subject, it was a sensitive one for you.
It's not surprising that you wouldn't want to hear about what you coulda shoulda woulda done, but your friend could very well have been trying to help alleviate your anxiety by giving you thoughts about what you could do if it ever happens again. In that respect, she may have been doing her best to be thoughtful and helpful.
posted by janey47 at 2:59 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, this incident was very high on your list of triggers. You say that one reason you didn't call the cops was because you didn't feel up to going over again. So talking to your friend about it already was fraught, because before you ever broached the subject, it was a sensitive one for you.
It's not surprising that you wouldn't want to hear about what you coulda shoulda woulda done, but your friend could very well have been trying to help alleviate your anxiety by giving you thoughts about what you could do if it ever happens again. In that respect, she may have been doing her best to be thoughtful and helpful.
posted by janey47 at 2:59 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: She doesn't appear to be particularly empathetic (at least not from how you've presented her here), and such people often relate to other people's misfortunes on a "could have" and "should have" basis, which may stem from a sense of moral judgment (i.e., everything bad that happens to someone else is their fault, because they made an incorrect choice) and/or a need to avoid admitting that anything bad could happen to themselves (i.e., I am protected from the randomness of the world as long as I constantly make the correct choices).
This can be frustrating in a friend or family member, but -- speaking from personal experience -- it's not likely to be anything you're going to fix (or even get any satisfaction from) by bringing up.
posted by scody at 3:00 PM on May 13, 2013 [19 favorites]
This can be frustrating in a friend or family member, but -- speaking from personal experience -- it's not likely to be anything you're going to fix (or even get any satisfaction from) by bringing up.
posted by scody at 3:00 PM on May 13, 2013 [19 favorites]
It wasn't insensitive, it just wasn't what you needed. It sounds like you wanted someone to be sensitive to the fact this incident was hard for you share and to validate your feelings. It seems like what she did was look at your behaviour and try to point out where you could have made better, safer and more empowered choices.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I think a quote from that article answers your question quite well:
Later, when I told my friends what had happened, they hugged me and a few shared their own similar experiences. Mostly, though, they were sure they would have been tougher: they would have kicked the abuser, screamed, pushed their way through the layers of fellow riders.
It's super, super hard to understand how scared, and confused, and panicked it feels to be in a situation like this. I don't honestly think I would have as much empathy and sympathy for you if I hadn't experienced a very similar situation. That was over ten years ago now and I still remember how much it marked me, for a long time, with fear.
Your friend is doing the best she can. Unfortunately, she hasn't really hit the spot as far as you (and I) can tell, but that's ok. If you can, be glad, because this means that she's never had to experience it, hence why she doesn't understand it or how to deal with it.
posted by greenish at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
Later, when I told my friends what had happened, they hugged me and a few shared their own similar experiences. Mostly, though, they were sure they would have been tougher: they would have kicked the abuser, screamed, pushed their way through the layers of fellow riders.
It's super, super hard to understand how scared, and confused, and panicked it feels to be in a situation like this. I don't honestly think I would have as much empathy and sympathy for you if I hadn't experienced a very similar situation. That was over ten years ago now and I still remember how much it marked me, for a long time, with fear.
Your friend is doing the best she can. Unfortunately, she hasn't really hit the spot as far as you (and I) can tell, but that's ok. If you can, be glad, because this means that she's never had to experience it, hence why she doesn't understand it or how to deal with it.
posted by greenish at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
You could (I don't know about 'should') say to her, "I realize there are all sorts of practical things one could do in that situation, but I'm not telling you about it so you can solve the problem I had last year. I'm telling you about it because the experience scared the crap out of me, so I feel for the person who wrote that. I sympathize with her, probably because sympathy is what I need. Sympathy. Not clever ideas."
posted by jon1270 at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
It sounds to me like you needed to her to accept how you felt during that experience.
If I decided I needed to bring it up again, I'd explain that during that conversation, I didn't feel particularly good about the way it went. And then I might explain that I needed her to acknowledge how I felt during that experience.
I'm sorry to hear that that person followed you for miles and pleased to hear you were able to safely and successfully extract yourself from the situation.
posted by aniola at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013
If I decided I needed to bring it up again, I'd explain that during that conversation, I didn't feel particularly good about the way it went. And then I might explain that I needed her to acknowledge how I felt during that experience.
I'm sorry to hear that that person followed you for miles and pleased to hear you were able to safely and successfully extract yourself from the situation.
posted by aniola at 3:02 PM on May 13, 2013
I think you might have had different expectations for the conversation than she did. Like, she wanted to talk how to fix the situation in which you found yourself, and you wanted her to relate with empathy to how scared you were and how weird and creepy it was. But she didn't. I don't think there's a right and wrong here, but you might say to her that what you needed was something other than what she gave you. And maybe now you know that your friend is not the best at relating with empathy and in the future either you look elsewhere to have that need met or you can let her know "hey, I just need you to listen and share my feelings here, not tell me what I could have done differently." and see how she responds.
It's worth keeping in mind that a lot of people cling to a narrative that violence and predation come to those who weren't careful about themselves. So when a woman who happened to have worked as a stripper was killed in my town last year, by her boyfriend, for reasons apparently totally unrelated to her job, people still spent a lot of time talking about how she was a stripper and what do you expect &c &c. Because people want to think that they can control when and whether violence visits them. Your friend might be clinging to that belief -- you could have called the police and then been safe at any moment -- because she needs to believe that she lives in a world where nice women are safe getting off the bus.
It might be hard for her to dislodge this belief, even though you and I can see why it's a fiction and why it makes it hard for people to relate to crime victims with empathy: "there's always a reason why it happened to them. I'm safe."
posted by gauche at 3:04 PM on May 13, 2013 [12 favorites]
It's worth keeping in mind that a lot of people cling to a narrative that violence and predation come to those who weren't careful about themselves. So when a woman who happened to have worked as a stripper was killed in my town last year, by her boyfriend, for reasons apparently totally unrelated to her job, people still spent a lot of time talking about how she was a stripper and what do you expect &c &c. Because people want to think that they can control when and whether violence visits them. Your friend might be clinging to that belief -- you could have called the police and then been safe at any moment -- because she needs to believe that she lives in a world where nice women are safe getting off the bus.
It might be hard for her to dislodge this belief, even though you and I can see why it's a fiction and why it makes it hard for people to relate to crime victims with empathy: "there's always a reason why it happened to them. I'm safe."
posted by gauche at 3:04 PM on May 13, 2013 [12 favorites]
That can be frustrating, but I think you're making quite a stretch to get your feelings hurt.
If what you wanted her to do was just say yeah, that must have been real scary, the most direct way to handle that is to say so.
Most of the time, when people are retroactively solving problems like that, they're not doing it to make you feel bad. They're doing it because they love you and want you to be alive. You being dead is scary to them. So maybe if you acknowledge their feelings while asking for yours to be acknowledged as well, you can find a much more loving central ground.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:06 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
If what you wanted her to do was just say yeah, that must have been real scary, the most direct way to handle that is to say so.
Most of the time, when people are retroactively solving problems like that, they're not doing it to make you feel bad. They're doing it because they love you and want you to be alive. You being dead is scary to them. So maybe if you acknowledge their feelings while asking for yours to be acknowledged as well, you can find a much more loving central ground.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:06 PM on May 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Bringing this specific incident up again will probably make her defensive and cause more problems than it resolves.
I think you should drop it for now, but think about what you would say if it happens again. If she again offers unwanted advice when you're looking for sympathy, say something like, "I understand you're trying to help, but I don't need advice about this. I just need you to listen."
posted by mokin at 3:11 PM on May 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think you should drop it for now, but think about what you would say if it happens again. If she again offers unwanted advice when you're looking for sympathy, say something like, "I understand you're trying to help, but I don't need advice about this. I just need you to listen."
posted by mokin at 3:11 PM on May 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
If it helps to hear the friend's (possible) perspective, I did this to a friend -- not because I was judging her or her past actions, but because I wanted to engage with her and show that I was interested in her story. It took a really negative reaction on her part to make me realize I was being a jerk and just needed to say, "How scary, I'm so sorry that happened to you." That stuck with me.
So I think you're perfectly justified in feeling hurt. And yes, your friend is being insensitive, but she may not realize it or understand how you needed her to react. If it's a good friend and you think she'd take it in the spirit of open communication rather than criticism, I would be direct and say, "Hey, when we had this conversation, I felt really bad when you kept questioning what I did and saying what I should have done. I know you didn't mean it this way, but I felt like you were judging me when I just wanted you to acknowledge how scary that situation was for me."
posted by chickenmagazine at 3:22 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
So I think you're perfectly justified in feeling hurt. And yes, your friend is being insensitive, but she may not realize it or understand how you needed her to react. If it's a good friend and you think she'd take it in the spirit of open communication rather than criticism, I would be direct and say, "Hey, when we had this conversation, I felt really bad when you kept questioning what I did and saying what I should have done. I know you didn't mean it this way, but I felt like you were judging me when I just wanted you to acknowledge how scary that situation was for me."
posted by chickenmagazine at 3:22 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
People who don't suffer from anxiety don't understand what it is like for people with anxiety (I only kind of understand it, now that I know that it is a "thing" people have). Your friend was a good listener and tried to be helpful to you, even though she wasn't. It really takes a long time to even have a concept of seeing the world through someone else's very different emotional eyes. But you could make it clear that you aren't looking for advice, just relating a scary experience and how it made you feel.
posted by deanc at 3:24 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by deanc at 3:24 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
A lot of people are looking for solutions when they talk to their friends about difficult issues. Those people often try to help their friends by proposing solutions to problems.
Other people are looking for emotional support when they talk to their friends about difficult issues. Those people often try to help their friends by being a good listener and commiserating.
It sounds like your friend was trying to propose solutions when you were looking for a good listener. Your feelings are perfectly valid, but your friend is probably baffled by how they managed to hurt you when they were trying to help.
You can tell your friend that in the future, you're not looking for solutions, you're looking to process or talk about your emotions/fears or whatever you're looking for. I would also try to let your friend know that you appreciate that they were trying to help, even if it wasn't helpful at the time.
posted by Jairus at 3:25 PM on May 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
Other people are looking for emotional support when they talk to their friends about difficult issues. Those people often try to help their friends by being a good listener and commiserating.
It sounds like your friend was trying to propose solutions when you were looking for a good listener. Your feelings are perfectly valid, but your friend is probably baffled by how they managed to hurt you when they were trying to help.
You can tell your friend that in the future, you're not looking for solutions, you're looking to process or talk about your emotions/fears or whatever you're looking for. I would also try to let your friend know that you appreciate that they were trying to help, even if it wasn't helpful at the time.
posted by Jairus at 3:25 PM on May 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
Oh hai, I deal with anxiety too! I have also been through situations similar to what you describe. Even having been through it, I have a hard time not piping in with Monday Morning Quarterbacking when I hear about this shitty stuff happening to other people.
I know from direct experience that these phrases were not helpful to me. Yet, what comes out of my mouth is "maybe next time you'll ___________" or "Good thing some random guy got on the subway and Mr Gropey gave up his game." Seriously, I give these assholes stupid nicknames and everything when all my loved ones want is for me to say, "That sounds like it was really scary. Do you want to talk about it some more?"
Another thing to remember, is that not everyone responds the same way to being assaulted/stalked/violated in whatever way. And that every response is ok! It's also possible that your friend has been assaulted in some way and is responding the way that everybody did when she shared her story. I mention that because I don't tell everyone about my experiences, even when they're sharing theirs. For a lot of reasons.
The last thing I want to remind you is that is seems to be human nature to think that if we do the "right thing(s)" we won't be victimized (again). Vocalizing that crappy advice is sort of a talisman for a lot of people. We rub our fingers over the words to remind ourselves what We're Supposed To Do when our time comes. Of course, we know this type of advice is wrong and counterproductive.
What I have learned about sharing is that when I have a problem/am worried about something/want to vent, if I just want the other person to listen to me, I have to say, "I just need you to really hear what I'm about to say. I don't need advice. If you have any questions for me, I'll answer them." If I think I'm going to cry when I reveal the big thing (which still happens to me sometimes, even though I've told most of these stories a few times), I warn them about that and give them a heads up about the fact that I might not want a hug.
posted by bilabial at 3:35 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
I know from direct experience that these phrases were not helpful to me. Yet, what comes out of my mouth is "maybe next time you'll ___________" or "Good thing some random guy got on the subway and Mr Gropey gave up his game." Seriously, I give these assholes stupid nicknames and everything when all my loved ones want is for me to say, "That sounds like it was really scary. Do you want to talk about it some more?"
Another thing to remember, is that not everyone responds the same way to being assaulted/stalked/violated in whatever way. And that every response is ok! It's also possible that your friend has been assaulted in some way and is responding the way that everybody did when she shared her story. I mention that because I don't tell everyone about my experiences, even when they're sharing theirs. For a lot of reasons.
The last thing I want to remind you is that is seems to be human nature to think that if we do the "right thing(s)" we won't be victimized (again). Vocalizing that crappy advice is sort of a talisman for a lot of people. We rub our fingers over the words to remind ourselves what We're Supposed To Do when our time comes. Of course, we know this type of advice is wrong and counterproductive.
What I have learned about sharing is that when I have a problem/am worried about something/want to vent, if I just want the other person to listen to me, I have to say, "I just need you to really hear what I'm about to say. I don't need advice. If you have any questions for me, I'll answer them." If I think I'm going to cry when I reveal the big thing (which still happens to me sometimes, even though I've told most of these stories a few times), I warn them about that and give them a heads up about the fact that I might not want a hug.
posted by bilabial at 3:35 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Some people are better at expressing ways to analyze and solve issues that at expressing empathy. She wasn't telling you you were wrong or an idiot; she may just have been trying to be supportive in the best way she could. Many people like to imagine themselves being strong and brave in tough situations as well, and they prefer to express that side of themselves- not because they don't understand the situation, but because it's scary and no one likes to imagine themselves being victimized. I think you should cut your friend some slack, and don't be afraid to say that you just wanted some expression of empathy. Neither of you is reacting inappropriately.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:38 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by oneirodynia at 3:38 PM on May 13, 2013
Oh. So to answer your actual question. Yes. Tell her in the future before you share anything sensitive with her that you want a listener but no advice. You don't need to refer back to this recent conversation in any way.
Because she didn't do anything wrong, she just didn't know what you needed. If you tell her that she was crappy in this interaction, she might constantly worry about how she's responding to you in the future. But giving her a specific path to success will allow her to travel it. So to speak.
posted by bilabial at 3:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because she didn't do anything wrong, she just didn't know what you needed. If you tell her that she was crappy in this interaction, she might constantly worry about how she's responding to you in the future. But giving her a specific path to success will allow her to travel it. So to speak.
posted by bilabial at 3:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
People are being pretty dismissive of you and treating you like you're being oversensitive ("you're making quite a stretch to get your feelings hurt," "They may not have given you the empathy you wanted, but they're a pretty good friend in my book") but they're wrong to do so.
As anyone who has experience working with trauma survivors knows, one of the worst things you can do is retroactively second-guess their decisions. Your trauma was (luckily) short-lived and resolved itself safely, but the same rules apply. "Why didn't you call the police? Why didn't you tell people at the barbecue? Why didn't you loudly tell him no? Why didn't you fight him off?" etc. etc. etc. This is a form of victim-blaming, and it stems from a desire to preserve the listener's sense of safety - your friend may think she was comforting you, but what she was really doing was telling herself, "I would have behaved differently, therefore, nothing like this could ever happen to me." This is different from the impulse to offer advice where none is needed (though that's annoying, too) - after all, this incident was long in the past, and you survived it; no other solutions were necessary. Your friend, in telling you what you 'could' have done, was telling you what you did wrong to invite that kind of incident, and, subconsciously or not, she did so to make -herself- feel better.
That is why you are hurt and angry with her and it is understandable. As to the question of what to do next - it probably depends on your friendship. The way your friend responded is, sadly, not uncommon; if it happens again, you might try a mild response along the lines of: "When people are telling you about something stressful that happened to them, it doesn't usually help to tell them all the things they should have done differently." If you want to address this particular incident, as you have the right to, you could say, "Our conversation from the other days has been bothering me; I know it's a small thing, but the incident was very stressful for me and I feel like I handled it the best I could; when you kept telling me all the things I 'should' have done, I couldn't help but feel that you were blaming me for what I did wrong." She may get it, or she might not, but at least you've expressed how you feel.
Good luck!
posted by pretentious illiterate at 3:43 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
As anyone who has experience working with trauma survivors knows, one of the worst things you can do is retroactively second-guess their decisions. Your trauma was (luckily) short-lived and resolved itself safely, but the same rules apply. "Why didn't you call the police? Why didn't you tell people at the barbecue? Why didn't you loudly tell him no? Why didn't you fight him off?" etc. etc. etc. This is a form of victim-blaming, and it stems from a desire to preserve the listener's sense of safety - your friend may think she was comforting you, but what she was really doing was telling herself, "I would have behaved differently, therefore, nothing like this could ever happen to me." This is different from the impulse to offer advice where none is needed (though that's annoying, too) - after all, this incident was long in the past, and you survived it; no other solutions were necessary. Your friend, in telling you what you 'could' have done, was telling you what you did wrong to invite that kind of incident, and, subconsciously or not, she did so to make -herself- feel better.
That is why you are hurt and angry with her and it is understandable. As to the question of what to do next - it probably depends on your friendship. The way your friend responded is, sadly, not uncommon; if it happens again, you might try a mild response along the lines of: "When people are telling you about something stressful that happened to them, it doesn't usually help to tell them all the things they should have done differently." If you want to address this particular incident, as you have the right to, you could say, "Our conversation from the other days has been bothering me; I know it's a small thing, but the incident was very stressful for me and I feel like I handled it the best I could; when you kept telling me all the things I 'should' have done, I couldn't help but feel that you were blaming me for what I did wrong." She may get it, or she might not, but at least you've expressed how you feel.
Good luck!
posted by pretentious illiterate at 3:43 PM on May 13, 2013 [14 favorites]
As anyone who has experience working with trauma survivors knows,
Most people haven't worked with trauma survivors, and most people don't know what an anxiety disorder is like. That's why I think we're inclined to cut the OP's friend some slack. Now maybe this would be a good "teachable moment" for the friend, but the friend's reaction, while incorrect in this circumstance, is perfectly understandable.
posted by deanc at 3:48 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Most people haven't worked with trauma survivors, and most people don't know what an anxiety disorder is like. That's why I think we're inclined to cut the OP's friend some slack. Now maybe this would be a good "teachable moment" for the friend, but the friend's reaction, while incorrect in this circumstance, is perfectly understandable.
posted by deanc at 3:48 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
Personally, I don't think your friend did anything wrong, however your feelings were hurt. If it were me and a friend told me that story I would ask why they didn't call the cops too. I have no idea what tone she was asking you, but she seems protective or confused. Maybe she would have called the cops and doesn't understand why you didn't. I don't think she did it to be rude.
I have too had a similar experience and wandered around my campus - during winter break, pretty empty - to make sure the guy wasn't following me. (He stopped me and rambled on about how we were "already in love" and how I should dump my boyfriend and "run away" with him, then asked to come to my house.) But in my situation I would have called the cops or campus police if he were to follow me more, so some people may not actually understand why you didn't call the cops. (I actually did call my boyfriend on the way home so he knew what was going on.)
Again, you were offended and that's valid. I think if any conversation comes up like that say something like "I understand why you asked about me calling the cops, but it kind of hurt my feelings. I guess I wanted you to just listen instead of offering advice on what I could have done." Leave it at that. Don't bring it up out of nowhere.
posted by Crystalinne at 4:00 PM on May 13, 2013
I have too had a similar experience and wandered around my campus - during winter break, pretty empty - to make sure the guy wasn't following me. (He stopped me and rambled on about how we were "already in love" and how I should dump my boyfriend and "run away" with him, then asked to come to my house.) But in my situation I would have called the cops or campus police if he were to follow me more, so some people may not actually understand why you didn't call the cops. (I actually did call my boyfriend on the way home so he knew what was going on.)
Again, you were offended and that's valid. I think if any conversation comes up like that say something like "I understand why you asked about me calling the cops, but it kind of hurt my feelings. I guess I wanted you to just listen instead of offering advice on what I could have done." Leave it at that. Don't bring it up out of nowhere.
posted by Crystalinne at 4:00 PM on May 13, 2013
People aren't always what you want them to be. They can't always give you what you need. It's OK to ask someone for X, but that doesn't mean that they'll be able to give it to you. It's possible or even probable that your friend will respond in this same fashion the next time you need to vent, so don't rely on her for that kind of thing. Find someone else to help you with that. Your friend isn't likely to change and you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment if you try to discuss a topic lie this with her in the future.
posted by Solomon at 4:03 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Solomon at 4:03 PM on May 13, 2013 [3 favorites]
deanc - Fair enough. But while the trend of the responses here is to normalize the friend's behavior ("The way she acted was understandable") my goal was to normalize OP's response ("The fact that you were hurt is understandable, too.") What might appear to be a one-off interaction between OP and a well-meaning friend is actually deeply embedded in a whole web of other issues regarding the way our culture deals with trauma survivors. Nearly anyone who talks about this kind of incident - from stalking to groping to rape - will be met with an identical set of responses: over and over again, the well-meaning friends, SO's, family members, doctors, lawyers, and police officers will find a thousand different ways to ask the same question: couldn't you have done something differently? Isn't this kind of your fault? This is a barrier to reporting, a barrier to survivors getting the help they need, and it is a barrier to justice.
This may seem like an overreaction on my part and maybe it is. I certainly understand that the friend meant well. But I also get tired of seeing friends & family members reacting to survivors in a way that is almost guaranteed to cause them pain. I think that we (and OP) can, and should, expect better.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 4:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [11 favorites]
This may seem like an overreaction on my part and maybe it is. I certainly understand that the friend meant well. But I also get tired of seeing friends & family members reacting to survivors in a way that is almost guaranteed to cause them pain. I think that we (and OP) can, and should, expect better.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 4:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [11 favorites]
As anyone who has experience working with trauma survivors knows, one of the worst things you can do is ...
...assume people who have had bad experiences are all identical and the same rules apply to each of them? Yeah.
(I have had some bad experiences, and would've appreciated dissecting why I might not have had optimal reactions if discussing them afterwards)
Why did you send your friend the link to the post? You weren't interested in her reaction to the post, so...?
If you need sympathy for the dreadful stalking incident, ask for it -- directly.
I do not feel that your friend responded inappropriately. My view is that trying to hash out why one might not have had an aggressive response to danger is an empowering thing to do, and that pretending as though paralysing fear is the only response one might be capable of is infantilising and insulting to victims. "Why not call the cops?" is not on a continuum with "That's because you were wearing a short skirt" or some such; it is a reasonable way to discuss such events. For me, anyway. There isn't a single correct way to respond to people who've had scary things happen to them.
posted by kmennie at 4:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
...assume people who have had bad experiences are all identical and the same rules apply to each of them? Yeah.
(I have had some bad experiences, and would've appreciated dissecting why I might not have had optimal reactions if discussing them afterwards)
Why did you send your friend the link to the post? You weren't interested in her reaction to the post, so...?
If you need sympathy for the dreadful stalking incident, ask for it -- directly.
I do not feel that your friend responded inappropriately. My view is that trying to hash out why one might not have had an aggressive response to danger is an empowering thing to do, and that pretending as though paralysing fear is the only response one might be capable of is infantilising and insulting to victims. "Why not call the cops?" is not on a continuum with "That's because you were wearing a short skirt" or some such; it is a reasonable way to discuss such events. For me, anyway. There isn't a single correct way to respond to people who've had scary things happen to them.
posted by kmennie at 4:28 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Direct answers towards the OP and please take sideline comments to email, thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:31 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:31 PM on May 13, 2013
Friends often try to "protect" you from evil in stores, even if it makes no sense. So by giving you all the options as you're telling the story and after, she was kind of inserting herself in there and giving you options that, in a way, let her assure herself that she could protect you if only she was there to feed you the right information.
It's a strategy I've seen with people I've told difficult stories before. It's a weird protection mechanism that kicks in when people know they can't do anything about the past, but want to anyway.
posted by xingcat at 4:37 PM on May 13, 2013
It's a strategy I've seen with people I've told difficult stories before. It's a weird protection mechanism that kicks in when people know they can't do anything about the past, but want to anyway.
posted by xingcat at 4:37 PM on May 13, 2013
oh, sorry that happened to you. i don't think she said anything wrong. you could have said, after her first or second suggestion "yea, i'm not really looking for answers for what i could have done, i just wanted you to understand how i feel."
[i am aware of how ironic this answer is]
posted by cupcake1337 at 4:46 PM on May 13, 2013
[i am aware of how ironic this answer is]
posted by cupcake1337 at 4:46 PM on May 13, 2013
Your friend was responding to a description of an event IN THE PAST --- not something current, and for a past event which, while scary, caused you no physical harm, her response was appropriately sympathetic.
If this was about something that happened in the last couple days, you'd be justified in expecting a more emphatic response; but for a year-old event, I think you're asking too much, sorry.
posted by easily confused at 5:11 PM on May 13, 2013
If this was about something that happened in the last couple days, you'd be justified in expecting a more emphatic response; but for a year-old event, I think you're asking too much, sorry.
posted by easily confused at 5:11 PM on May 13, 2013
I'm sorry you had such an awful experience with the man who followed you; that sounds terrifying. I think it was really smart to avoid going home and go to the party.
It sounds to me like you wanted your friend listen to you and to validate your feelings, which makes a lot of sense to me. Instead, she suggested that you could have acted differently, which demonstrated that she didn't understand how high your anxiety was, and that you were doing the best you could at the time. So, what she said was (understandably) hurtful, but unintentionally so.
I think you have a couple options going forward. If you think she would understand, you could bring it up again and explain that sometimes you just want her to listen & not make suggestions. A lot of people have trouble with that kind of listening though, so it might be easier for you if you don't bring it up with her again, and choose instead to share with other friends who have a better understanding of your needs.
posted by insectosaurus at 5:11 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
It sounds to me like you wanted your friend listen to you and to validate your feelings, which makes a lot of sense to me. Instead, she suggested that you could have acted differently, which demonstrated that she didn't understand how high your anxiety was, and that you were doing the best you could at the time. So, what she said was (understandably) hurtful, but unintentionally so.
I think you have a couple options going forward. If you think she would understand, you could bring it up again and explain that sometimes you just want her to listen & not make suggestions. A lot of people have trouble with that kind of listening though, so it might be easier for you if you don't bring it up with her again, and choose instead to share with other friends who have a better understanding of your needs.
posted by insectosaurus at 5:11 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think your friend was insensitive. First she wanted to minimize the experience of the woman who wrote the NYT groping article ("Gosh, why was she freaked out after someone was rubbing their boner on her in the subway?"). And I think that attitude was a little off already, even in the context of discussing some random woman's experience.
But then, when you said this was a meaningful article to me because I had a scary experience too, she didn't say oh, OK, I understand in that context how it could be meaningful to you. Instead she wanted to minimize your experience and tell you about how you Got Stalked Wrong. (Please note that this happened to the NYT lady too: all her friends were sure they'd have handled it much more fiercely and suavely, which is easy to say when you're not the one who was there in the moment.) I don't know why she reacts this way. Maybe she wants to feel less vulnerable than you and the NYT writer; it's nice to imagine that you'd be the Swashbuckling Woman Who'd Totally Show That Guy What Was What. Or maybe she was reading email while she was talking to you and just responded on autopilot. Anyway, it was not sensitively handled, at all, in my opinion.
That said, I'm not sure if I'd bring it up with your friend. How close are you? Are there other traumatizing experiences do you want to share with her? How tactful is she normally? If you are fairly close and you'd like to tell her other intimate things, I might say something like
"Hey, you know, I felt funny after our conversation today. When you were talking about why didn't I call the cops and stuff, I felt like you were criticizing me, and in the moment my feelings were hurt. I know you care for me, and in the future if I tell you about something that happened that upset me, I'd probably rather get plain old listening than advice. If I want advice, I'll let you know, okay?"
posted by feets at 5:33 PM on May 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
But then, when you said this was a meaningful article to me because I had a scary experience too, she didn't say oh, OK, I understand in that context how it could be meaningful to you. Instead she wanted to minimize your experience and tell you about how you Got Stalked Wrong. (Please note that this happened to the NYT lady too: all her friends were sure they'd have handled it much more fiercely and suavely, which is easy to say when you're not the one who was there in the moment.) I don't know why she reacts this way. Maybe she wants to feel less vulnerable than you and the NYT writer; it's nice to imagine that you'd be the Swashbuckling Woman Who'd Totally Show That Guy What Was What. Or maybe she was reading email while she was talking to you and just responded on autopilot. Anyway, it was not sensitively handled, at all, in my opinion.
That said, I'm not sure if I'd bring it up with your friend. How close are you? Are there other traumatizing experiences do you want to share with her? How tactful is she normally? If you are fairly close and you'd like to tell her other intimate things, I might say something like
"Hey, you know, I felt funny after our conversation today. When you were talking about why didn't I call the cops and stuff, I felt like you were criticizing me, and in the moment my feelings were hurt. I know you care for me, and in the future if I tell you about something that happened that upset me, I'd probably rather get plain old listening than advice. If I want advice, I'll let you know, okay?"
posted by feets at 5:33 PM on May 13, 2013 [8 favorites]
Friends, no matter how good they are, are not under any obligation to provide the responses we want. Furthermore, how much longer do you want people to provide an empathetic or sympathetic response to this event? Another year? Two? You wanted something out of the telling of your story -- and you need to own that, and think about why you wanted it, and whether it's fair to your friends to want it. (After all, by your own admission, you didn't want to talk about it after it happened -- so, why now? Why with this person?)
Yes, you were scared; yes, the guy was a creep -- but in the final, factual analysis nothing happened to you. I've been followed by plenty of creeps, and I'm no stranger to anxiety, and yet I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which I would trot out any of those stories to -- basically -- shame someone into feeling a certain way, for me.
In short: this is not about a one-time event with some random creeper, is it? This is about your friend and your general dissatisfaction with how they respond to you/support you emotionally, no?
posted by gsh at 5:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Yes, you were scared; yes, the guy was a creep -- but in the final, factual analysis nothing happened to you. I've been followed by plenty of creeps, and I'm no stranger to anxiety, and yet I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which I would trot out any of those stories to -- basically -- shame someone into feeling a certain way, for me.
In short: this is not about a one-time event with some random creeper, is it? This is about your friend and your general dissatisfaction with how they respond to you/support you emotionally, no?
posted by gsh at 5:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Listen, I had something happen on a train that terrified me, and when I told a therapist, he just went on to discuss some scheduling issues. Now that is insensitive! I think your friend tried to be a good friend to you, she is just a different person. I'm not sure what you want her to say in response that she didn't already say. She might not be a total kindred spirit with you but she tried and it doesn't sound like she is a bad person. Actually gsh above said it better than I can.
posted by bquarters at 5:46 PM on May 13, 2013
posted by bquarters at 5:46 PM on May 13, 2013
Response by poster: I just want to thank everyone for their responses.
First I'd like to say that my friend and I have talked about her tendency to offer solutions when I don't want any. This is a dynamic we're trying to fix. I've brought my concerns to her before She's an extremely close friend of mine from when we were in high school. This friend and I have a habit of sending each other pieces relating to feminism/women's issues.
I've also talked to my therapist about this extensively and feel no real pain when thinking about my past anxiety.
I only brought my story up as a way to provide some anecdata. I felt (rightly or wrongly) that she saw the author's response -- from the NYTimes story -- as invalid or even weak. I was frustrated because she seemed to miss the point of the story.
So I told her that it was a valid response. Not even the best response, but a response that exists. I wanted to tell that I would know because I'd felt it, too. I felt that she didn't understand that point of that, either, when she continued to wonder why I did or didn't do something. It's a year ago. There's nothing I can do to change that. It just happened.
Her response both missed the point and managed to make me feel like crap. I feel better now, and I'm definitely not going to bring it up. But I wasn't trying to achieve sympathy/empathy for myself, necessarily; I thought maybe I could help her understand the feelings described in this story. I'm not sure if I succeeded.
Thank you again.
posted by orangutan at 6:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
First I'd like to say that my friend and I have talked about her tendency to offer solutions when I don't want any. This is a dynamic we're trying to fix. I've brought my concerns to her before She's an extremely close friend of mine from when we were in high school. This friend and I have a habit of sending each other pieces relating to feminism/women's issues.
I've also talked to my therapist about this extensively and feel no real pain when thinking about my past anxiety.
I only brought my story up as a way to provide some anecdata. I felt (rightly or wrongly) that she saw the author's response -- from the NYTimes story -- as invalid or even weak. I was frustrated because she seemed to miss the point of the story.
So I told her that it was a valid response. Not even the best response, but a response that exists. I wanted to tell that I would know because I'd felt it, too. I felt that she didn't understand that point of that, either, when she continued to wonder why I did or didn't do something. It's a year ago. There's nothing I can do to change that. It just happened.
Her response both missed the point and managed to make me feel like crap. I feel better now, and I'm definitely not going to bring it up. But I wasn't trying to achieve sympathy/empathy for myself, necessarily; I thought maybe I could help her understand the feelings described in this story. I'm not sure if I succeeded.
Thank you again.
posted by orangutan at 6:39 PM on May 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: On the bright side, the next time you hear someone couch this type of interpersonal communication impasse as because Men Are From Mars, Women Are from Venus, you've got a great example of how it has nothing to do with intrinsic male and female dynamics.
So, I think it's likely that she read the article quickly and parsed it initially more as "news item," than "thoughtful commentary on behavior," and I think it's REALLY likely that she missed that this is part of series about anxiety, because I didn't notice that at first either. Or conversely, maybe she DID notice that this is a series on anxiety and, as a non-anxious person, just doesn't process her experiences in the world this way.
Or maybe she's just not very empathetic toward stories about strangers. Maybe she has particular personal frustrations with women being passive victims of "not making a scene." Maybe she rankled at the starring role and reliance on police authority in that story.
Regardless, I agree that it's one thing to brush off the article, but that she was a little cluelessly brusque in light of you connecting the dots and sharing your (far more ominous, really) experience. I imagine that even my most fixit and/or punk friends would react initially with "ohh, shit, that must've been really fucking scary at the time" before going into the could'a, should'a, would'as of your situation.
Monday-morning quarterbacking this, I'd say that maybe in the future, since this is a communication thing you're working on with her, maybe try drawing her in a little deeper regarding what resonated with you at the get-go, to help set up her expectations. For example (and this is just my own example, not trying to put words in your mouth) "I thought this was a really well-stated personal account of how even though maybe rational options for responses include X1, X2, X3, the freaking-out logic says Y1! Y2!, and it's horrendously scary to feel your sense of self circumvented like that."
posted by desuetude at 8:52 PM on May 13, 2013
So, I think it's likely that she read the article quickly and parsed it initially more as "news item," than "thoughtful commentary on behavior," and I think it's REALLY likely that she missed that this is part of series about anxiety, because I didn't notice that at first either. Or conversely, maybe she DID notice that this is a series on anxiety and, as a non-anxious person, just doesn't process her experiences in the world this way.
Or maybe she's just not very empathetic toward stories about strangers. Maybe she has particular personal frustrations with women being passive victims of "not making a scene." Maybe she rankled at the starring role and reliance on police authority in that story.
Regardless, I agree that it's one thing to brush off the article, but that she was a little cluelessly brusque in light of you connecting the dots and sharing your (far more ominous, really) experience. I imagine that even my most fixit and/or punk friends would react initially with "ohh, shit, that must've been really fucking scary at the time" before going into the could'a, should'a, would'as of your situation.
Monday-morning quarterbacking this, I'd say that maybe in the future, since this is a communication thing you're working on with her, maybe try drawing her in a little deeper regarding what resonated with you at the get-go, to help set up her expectations. For example (and this is just my own example, not trying to put words in your mouth) "I thought this was a really well-stated personal account of how even though maybe rational options for responses include X1, X2, X3, the freaking-out logic says Y1! Y2!, and it's horrendously scary to feel your sense of self circumvented like that."
posted by desuetude at 8:52 PM on May 13, 2013
Keep your friend. Good ones are hard to find. Take off the knapsack where you carry your resentment, put it on the ground and walk away. Then be extra-nice to your friend to sooth the hurt both of you are feeling.
posted by KRS at 7:23 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by KRS at 7:23 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
I must be insensitive too because I don't really see anything wrong with the friend's response.
It could be simply a question of personality type. Some people respond to issues emotionally- the sympathy, the hug, etc. Some people respond more analytically, looking at the causes and effects of the incident, considering options, etc. The hug and sympathy may help your emotional hurt after the fact, but if a similar situation arises in the future, having thought it through more thoroughly ahead of time will be of use to you in dealing with it. From that point, your friend is probably trying to help look out for your best interests.
And for the record, my wife has told me at times that I have a tendency to offer solutions when she doesn't want any.
posted by Doohickie at 11:26 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
It could be simply a question of personality type. Some people respond to issues emotionally- the sympathy, the hug, etc. Some people respond more analytically, looking at the causes and effects of the incident, considering options, etc. The hug and sympathy may help your emotional hurt after the fact, but if a similar situation arises in the future, having thought it through more thoroughly ahead of time will be of use to you in dealing with it. From that point, your friend is probably trying to help look out for your best interests.
And for the record, my wife has told me at times that I have a tendency to offer solutions when she doesn't want any.
posted by Doohickie at 11:26 AM on May 14, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I don't want to participate in a conversation, but I just wanted to reiterate that I was sharing my story as an example of the anxiety discussed in NYTimes blog post. I wasn't looking for sympathy -- I was only trying to clarify the emotions/feelings by sharing my experience. And I really wasn't looking for help or a post-mortem because shit, it happened, and it's happened since, and I've reacted differently each time.
I know now that I was wrong in sharing my experience with her, since that isn't the way I should try to show or persuade her of something. I'll just stay away from such charged subjects in the future.
posted by orangutan at 11:38 AM on May 14, 2013
I know now that I was wrong in sharing my experience with her, since that isn't the way I should try to show or persuade her of something. I'll just stay away from such charged subjects in the future.
posted by orangutan at 11:38 AM on May 14, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by orangutan at 2:51 PM on May 13, 2013