City bikes: "Hybrid" vs "Dutch/upright"
April 4, 2013 5:48 AM   Subscribe

I am looking to buy a bike for basic getting-around-the-city purposes and I'd like to better understand the relative advantages of "hybrid" type bikes and "Dutch/upright" type bikes.

By "hybrid" I mean something like this: KHS Urban Soul, with flat handlebars and an angled top tube. As a kid I rode (cheap) mountain bikes and hybrids so I am most familiar with this type.

By "Dutch/upright" I mean something like this: KHS Green, with swept-back handlebars and a horizontal top tube (and a frame that in general looks very vintage-road-bike).

(I'm not necessarily looking at these specific bikes, although my local bike shop is a KHS dealer; I'm more interested in understanding what the tradeoffs are between these two styles.)

This will be used only for basic getting-around-the-city purposes (but not daily commuting) in very flat Chicago (with probably a lot of use of the lakefront path). I'll be looking for a single-speed or 3-speed internally-geared hub. Weight matters only inasmuch as I live on the second floor and must carry the bike into my apartment to store it currently.

My instinct is that the hybrids foster a less upright posture and are meant to be ridden a little bit faster (but are still more upright, and slower, than a road bike). Is that broadly correct?

Are there other differences in ride quality, maneuverability, or anything else that I haven't considered?
posted by enn to Travel & Transportation (18 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
Upright does what it says on the tin: it's very comfortable to ride and you can see traffic and hazards around you more easily. I live in the Netherlands now and ride a Gazelle but used to ride a mountain bike in other cities. I don't get a backache with the Omafiet style.
posted by wingless_angel at 5:59 AM on April 4, 2013


Best answer: I work in a bike shop and we sell both those types of bikes. Definitely try before you buy, even multiple times if you want. See which one feels better to you.

Dutch style will be a little more upright than that particular flavor of hybrid. That single-speed urban soul KHS will tend to get you where you're going a little faster, and would definitely be easier to carry up the stairs.

If you're on the fence, consider that the KHS Green and Urban Soul are the same price, but the Green comes with rack and fenders. All you need are a set of panniers and lights and you're good to go. Since you're not daily commuting and it sounds like this is basic getting-around-the-city riding, and weight is an issue since you're going to carry it up stairs every time you ride it, I think the Urban Soul is a better value. If you're reluctant to lug the Green out the door, it's not doing you any good.

Are there other differences in ride quality, maneuverability, or anything else that I haven't considered?

Dutch bikes are not nearly as agile as flat bar hybrids like Urban Soul, as you'll see on your test ride. Personally I don't find Dutch style bikes to be that comfortable on longer rides, but for short jaunts, what they're made for, they're great.

My instinct is that the hybrids foster a less upright posture and are meant to be ridden a little bit faster (but are still more upright, and slower, than a road bike). Is that broadly correct?

Basically. I kinda cringe at the word "hybrid" because it can mean so many different things to different people, so when a customer comes into my shop and wants to ride a hybrid, I need to do a little digging to find out what they intend to do with the bike so I can make a proper recommendation(s). Hybrid is really just two styles of bikes mixed together, but it commonly refers to a bike with 700c tires in a width near 35, flat bars, and a frame geometry somewhat close to a rigid mountain bike.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:23 AM on April 4, 2013 [3 favorites]


Best answer: Both of the bikes you linked will be comparably "upright", as far as these things go, and both can be built/fitted so as to make them slightly more or less so; test ride them both and see if this suspicion is correct. Many people will tell you that fit is very important, and they will be right to do so.

You are correct in your assumption that the hybrid bike you linked to will be faster than the city bike you linked to; but in your case this would have less to do with geometry than it would with the weight and tire width.

The city bike is going to be substantially heavier; it's high-tensile (heaviest) steel compared to some unspecified, butted ChroMo on the hybrid (much lighter). You're right to not overly concern yourself with weight -- too many entry-level shoppers do -- but as a fellow second-story dweller, I always wince when I see high-ten steel... there's "heavy" and then there's high-ten-boat-anchor heavy.

The tire widths are a difference you'd notice. The city bike is specced with 38mm tires, which are a bit overkill for most riders under 240lbs. The hybrid has 26c tires which might be perfect, but might be too skinny for riders over 180lbs or so, or riders with really rough pavement. (These are guidelines and not hard and fast rules).

25c-28c is a good width for most city riders between 150-210lbs. Wider=more weight, more rolling resistance, more comfort (to a point), and more puncture resistance (to a point, but much more influenced by tire quality than anything else).

The hybrid will be slightly easier and cheaper to source parts for, as it's using modern and more common technologies/dimensions (threadless 1.125 head, etc.). You'd have more selection and cheaper parts for upgrade/repair.

Chicago is a pretty flat town. I like the hybrid's 44t/16t front/rear setup much better than the cruiser's 40t/18t ratio, in this regard. This is easy enough and cheap enough (≈$25) to change, though.

One man's opinion, here, but I like the hybrid you linked quite a bit better. Let me know if you have any more questions or would like any suggestions.
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 6:28 AM on April 4, 2013


As someone who used to have to drag his bike out of the basement up narrow stairs, I'd say go with the hybrid since it will be lighter. This is assuming test rides first and that you are still not sure which to go with.

Since it's not a daily commuter and you'll presumably only be taking it out on nicer days you don't need the fenders. The only thing I'd add would be a chainguard so you don't have to worry about getting chain grease on your pants (or you can just get a $2 strap for your pants).

I had trouble finding actual weights on these bikes, but one source says the 2013 Soul is just over 23 pounds and the 2012 Green was in the mid/upper 30s. You should check with the bike shop on exact weights of the size you'll be using but that is a fairly significant difference when it comes to carrying it up stairs.
posted by mikepop at 7:34 AM on April 4, 2013


Best answer: Last year I switched from a hybrid, which I'd ridden almost daily for about 15 years, to a "city bike" with swept back handlebars which I mail ordered. I hated, hated, hated it. It just felt wrong. I was planning to switch out to a flat handlebar but figured I'd see if I could adjust.

After about a month, I stopped hating it. Now I don't notice, although I'd probably still prefer flat bars. It's not so much the speed as the manueverability - it's easier to deal with a pothole at 25 mph when you're leaning forward a bit more and your hands are spaced more widely.

In conclusion: test ride if possible.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:03 AM on April 4, 2013


Best answer: I think the big questions you need to answer have less to do with weight and geometry and riding posture and more to do with HOW you're going to use the bike.

1) do you want to ride in rain, slush, or even on wet streets just after rain? it has to have fenders or room around the brakes to add fenders. I agree that super wide tires (38s) are overkill except in winter if they have some tread for dealing with residual slush and salt on the roads. the fork and rims on the "hybrid" may be too skinny to fit tires that work in bad weather, but maybe you're only going to ride this bike late spring to early fall.

2) do you want to carry more than a water bottle and a wallet and maybe whatever fits in a small backpack? you need racks. I couldn't go without a rack on my daily ride, but if you're not using them, they're just dead weight.

3) are you riding this bike more than 5 miles at a stretch? I personally think totally flat, narrow bars are the worst thing to happen to bikes in the last couple years, and I ditched my flat bars when they started giving me shoulder problems. they might feel stable for a few miles but then they start to hurt, in my experience. I use road/drop bars. YMMV.
posted by slow graffiti at 8:03 AM on April 4, 2013


slow graffiti is exactly right in asserting that your expected ride type dictates the proper bike more than any other single thing. Be honest with yourself about how and when you're likely to ride; but you might also leave yourself some upgrade pathways in case you find yourself loving it/riding it more often than you thought.

You can buy aftermarket fenders or racks easily and cheaply when (or if) you find yourself needing them. For this reason I'd omit them at time of purchase unless you suspect you'll use/need them immediately.

Seconding the notion that if you plan on riding in the rain fenders are a must. Most hybrids will accept them, but check to make sure. Clearance for (up to) 28c tires w/fenders is standard and good. Some bikes (most Surly's for example) will allow up to 32c w/fenders.

Also seconding that a rack will help you if you plan on carrying more than a few lbs of things. You'll want to ask if the bike "has rack mounts". Again, most hybrids will.

OP: Hard to tell from your question, but are you prioritizing "upright" geometry? Is a less slack geo off the table? A compromise option that'd considerably broaden your choices would be a more traditional geo single speed with a short stem and riser bars, which would upright-it-up quite a bit. (Though I find road drops to be glorious, personally).
posted by jjjjjjjijjjjjjj at 8:40 AM on April 4, 2013


Response by poster: Thank you everyone for the answers—they are very helpful. I was leaning more toward the flat-bar style and the responses here are making me feel like that's the right choice for me.

It's not so much the speed as the manueverability - it's easier to deal with a pothole at 25 mph when you're leaning forward a bit more and your hands are spaced more widely.

This is why I have always preferred flat bars as well—I have never felt like I had the same control on either drop bars or swept-back bars.

are you riding this bike more than 5 miles at a stretch?

Sometimes, but not often. My most common trips will be in the 3-4 mile range but it would be nice to have the option to go further afield.

OP: Hard to tell from your question, but are you prioritizing "upright" geometry? Is a less slack geo off the table? A compromise option that'd considerably broaden your choices would be a more traditional geo single speed with a short stem and riser bars, which would upright-it-up quite a bit.

I'm not necessarily wedded to upright geometry but on the classic drop-bar road bikes I've ridden I've always felt uncomfortably hunched-over, even riding on the brake hoods (not to mention terrified because I can't see anything going on around me). But the (few) totally-upright cruiser-type bikes I've ridden don't provide enough control/agility. I think I'm happiest with something in the middle. But my experience is very limited, so it's hard to know whether I really prefer this or whether it's simply what I'm used to.

The kind of bike you are describing here (traditional geometry, riser bars) sounds appealing but I don't know if I've ever tried one like that. Can you recommend anything in particular along these lines that I could try to find locally for a test ride?
posted by enn at 8:58 AM on April 4, 2013


it's easier to deal with a pothole at 25 mph when you're leaning forward a bit more and your hands are spaced more widely.

This. I'll second basically everything that others have said, and in particular the general statement that you need to go and ride both and just see what feels best to you. But in general, the biggest difference between swept-back Dutch/cruiser style bars and flat MTB-style bars is weight distribution. On a bicycle with the same top tube length, swept-back bars will put more of your weight on the seat, and on the rear wheel, than on the handlebars and the front wheel.

For some people that makes them feel more relaxed and less fatiguing, but it also makes the bike feel less maneuverable. (I'd say "makes it less maneuverable" but that's an arguable point; I'm sure there's Dutch-style bike adherents who can maneuver them around potholes as well as anybody on any other type of bike, but they feel numb to me.) Personally, I wouldn't really want swept-back cruiser-style bars on a bike that I was going to ride in traffic, where I'd be constantly dodging pedestrians, car doors, potholes, etc. But they'd be fine if you're planning mostly relaxed rides on quiet streets or cycle paths.

Of course, you can compensate for the effect of handlebars on weight distribution by changing the stem length or the top tube length (which implies a different size frame); all of this is assuming that the bikes' geometry outside of the handlebars is the same.

on the classic drop-bar road bikes I've ridden I've always felt uncomfortably hunched-over, even riding on the brake hoods

I think that might be more an issue with setting the bike up to your liking rather than anything specific to drop bars; you can have a pretty upright riding posture with drop bars if you want, and many people do (esp. on touring bikes). E.g. if you look at the top picture on this page, they show a drop-bar touring bike set up so that the brake hoods are nice and high, actually higher than where your hands would be if it just had a flat bar on it. The main difference vs. a flat bar is that your hands are further forward, but that can be compensated via a shorter stem or a shorter cockpit if you know you're going to have drop bars.

Not that I'm saying drop / road bars are what you want in this case, just that it's totally possible to have them and have an upright riding posture if you wanted to.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:12 AM on April 4, 2013


With the caveat that I've never owned one - I freaking hate cruisers/Dutch-style city bikes unless I'm on a beach vacation at the boardwalk, and my impression is that most people that grew up riding mountain bikes feel similarly re: manuverability and riding position. In general, they just seem like the bike equivalent of a big old Buick or Town Car - big ol' cushy barge of a thing that's not meant for going anywhere in a hurry. If you also like standing on your pedals occasionally, that's when the weight distribution issue seems to have the most dramatic impact on handling.

I'm sure you'd get used to it eventually, but upright bikes don't seem to have any benefits besides the seating position, and it seems like you're not a huge fan of that so I'd go for a hybrid, a flat-bar road bike, or a singlespeed rigid mtb with slicks.
posted by hot soup at 9:28 AM on April 4, 2013


Sometimes, but not often. My most common trips will be in the 3-4 mile range but it would be nice to have the option to go further afield.

I just wanted to add that I eventually starting using my old hybrid for commuting 15 miles/day and fun 30 mile rides on the weekend and some 60 mile rides as well. So in my case it was versatile. There was also room for fenders, and it is now (complete with studded tires) my winter commuter.
posted by mikepop at 9:39 AM on April 4, 2013


Also, do remember that things like handlebars and fenders are very easily user swappable/removable/installable after the fact. Ditto for seats, racks, etc. Not so for things like the gearing, and of course frame geometry is permanent. Generally, my bias is toward flexibility, so I'd prefer something like the Urban Soul's sibling the Xcape, because even if the places where you'd usually ride are pretty flat, you might want to take some expeditions further afield someday; heck, if you really got into cycling, you might even want to do a century, and that's completely doable on a hybrid if you're in shape.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:43 AM on April 4, 2013


Those dutch city bikes are so heavy. Do you have to carry the bike upstairs at all? I agree with hot soup - cruisers are huge pains in the ass to ride. They're comfortable, but that's the extent of their upside.

I think you should try a touring style bike, or a cyclocross bike, and make sure that it fits. Riding a too large road bike is scary, but if you're on a properly fitted road bike, you should be able to see what's going on around you. There are different drop-bar frame geometries, and some are much more relaxed and commuter friendly than others.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 9:53 AM on April 4, 2013


I bought one of the early hybrids, and I now regret it. It sounds like things might not have changed much. My complaint is that the frame has an old, unsprung, mountainbike-like geometry with an excessively long top-tube. It might be great for stability on a bumpy downhill, but it is uncomfortably hard on my neck when trying to ride fast and keep my eye out for threats in urban traffic.

The durability, on the other hand, was awesome, but that was mostly down to wide tires on relatively beefy wheels.

I'd probably look to a cyclocross bike now, but that wasn't a mainstream option back then.
posted by Good Brain at 11:54 AM on April 4, 2013


Nobody has really mentioned traffic density. Since my daily commute has some of the heaviest traffic in this city, both bikes, pedestrians and cars, I have felt it necessary to change to a Dutch-type bicycle for the better vision you have in an upright position. Every single day, somebody does something slightly crazy/very unpredictable in traffic, and I've had a couple of bad accidents because I couldn't orient myself on my other bikes. It's all very good that you can maneuver round a pothole - if you get a chance to see that pothole in advance. For me, it's better to go a little slower (and I maybe lose 3 minutes on my 4.5 mile ride), but safer.
On the lakeside, it maybe isn't density as much as other people's unpredictable actions that are the problem? I have no idea, never biked there. But again, in an upright position you will have much better vision, both ahead and to the sides.

I'm dreaming about another bike, though. With this one, I hardly ever go further than my commute, and never for fun. I did that all the time before, and I miss it.
posted by mumimor at 12:37 PM on April 4, 2013


KHS also makes the Vitamin series, which would give you a position like the Soul, but some gearing too. It's a little more upright and has a wider handlebar as well. You should totally test ride it as well. The shop I moonlight at carries all these and I can say the Green feels like it weighs a ton. It's a tank and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who deals with stairs.
posted by advicepig at 3:23 PM on April 4, 2013


After years of riding mountain bikes I bought a Linus Dutch-style bike: fast, light and surprisingly agile, despite the swept-back handlebars. I love it (it's in a storage unit on the other side of the country) and would never go back.

The actual dutch bikes are built like tanks, but the newer versions of the design aren't.
posted by jrochest at 5:58 PM on April 4, 2013 [1 favorite]


I grew up riding mountain bikes, but my current bike is a Dutch bike (an actual Dutch bike, a Gazelle, so maybe even more upright and heavy than what you are considering). I LOVE it. I always hated feeling hunched over when riding, and because I had second hand bikes that never fitted perfectly, I got back pain, which I don't get on this bike anymore at all, even though it was also second hand and definitely "too big" for me if you pay attention to traditional measurements. I feel like a good fit is less important with an upright bike.

I feel pretty invincible on my bike because it is so solid. It handles potholes just fine. But it is not very manoeuvrable. I can't turn tight corners quickly. I tend to ride at a comfortable pace, though, rather than racing, so it's no problem for me.

I love the fact I am looking traffic right in the eye, instead of staring at the road and/or craning my neck up to see cars. I sit higher and feel more visible to traffic too.

My bike gets knocked over a lot when parked at university, and it seems pretty invincible there too. No bent bits, no scrapes. My old bikes used to get damaged pretty often that way. But that might be build quality rather than style of bike.

I would not want to have to carry this bike up six flights of stairs every day or anything, but I can lift it and carry it up a few steps when necessary. My old mountain bikes weren't the lightest on the road either, anyway. I don't know about hybrids. The weight difference between this bike and my husband's road bike is kind of hilarious, though.

Because of the weight, and the thick tyres, going up hill is a fair bit harder on this bike than on my husband's road bike, but on the other hand this has lower gears, so it makes up for it. Plus I ride partly to keep fit, so the extra workout is probably good for me. I wouldn't want to do a commute on this that had a lot of steep hills, though.

I love having fenders and racks and dynamo lighting and an enclosed chain and hub gears and hub brakes and all that. You are more likely to get those sorts of "extras" with a Dutch bike. I can ride through mud and rain and stay perfectly clean. I don't have to worry about batteries for my lights. I can carry an entire week's shopping if necessary. I never have to lube anything.
posted by lollusc at 6:19 PM on April 4, 2013


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