Square peg. Triangular hole. Doesn't work, but has to.
October 25, 2012 7:57 PM Subscribe
Asked for a friend: navigating a dreadful work situation. My friend is brilliant, extremely (as in four standard deviations above the norm) intelligent, socially not bad, with anger issues. She's in a clannish and overwhelmingly male-dominated tech organization, and she's been gradually demeaned and demoted from a technology manager (to which role she's well suited) to a super-tech. It is annoying her and messing with her confidence.
(tl; dr: Scintillatingly bright woman in a male-dominated, for-now-inescapable and dreary work situation, obviously being ground down in a nasty and ignoble manner by males who belong to a clannish society. What to do?)
She deserves better and yet the obvious options (get a different job, sweet-talk) are closed to her for reasons it's not that productive to get into.
She can and has solved the technical problems faced by the group she's in, yet those go un-appreciated or ignored for clunky alternative solutions created by the in-group. Her co-workers - in a Germanic society - alternately criticize her for 'not laughing at good jokes' and 'being too flippant and disrespectful'.
She's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be in the society in which she finds herself, which is characterized by order, timeliness and (IMO) dreariness. She should get out of Dodge, yet she cannot.
Therefore, she has to navigate a male-dominated and clannish society to which her contributions are elegant and straightforward, but routinely ignored and very often sneered at.
The injustice in this situation is tempered only by the fact that she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation. I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
In short - this woman is scary smart, above all of the people I have met save maybe one who is now the director of an Air Force systems command. She is that good. Yet she's mired in a situation in which she has to take a heaping serving of shit every day from a parcel of clowns, and there appears to be no exit.
How would you advise such a person, in navigating these waters?
(tl; dr: Scintillatingly bright woman in a male-dominated, for-now-inescapable and dreary work situation, obviously being ground down in a nasty and ignoble manner by males who belong to a clannish society. What to do?)
She deserves better and yet the obvious options (get a different job, sweet-talk) are closed to her for reasons it's not that productive to get into.
She can and has solved the technical problems faced by the group she's in, yet those go un-appreciated or ignored for clunky alternative solutions created by the in-group. Her co-workers - in a Germanic society - alternately criticize her for 'not laughing at good jokes' and 'being too flippant and disrespectful'.
She's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be in the society in which she finds herself, which is characterized by order, timeliness and (IMO) dreariness. She should get out of Dodge, yet she cannot.
Therefore, she has to navigate a male-dominated and clannish society to which her contributions are elegant and straightforward, but routinely ignored and very often sneered at.
The injustice in this situation is tempered only by the fact that she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation. I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
In short - this woman is scary smart, above all of the people I have met save maybe one who is now the director of an Air Force systems command. She is that good. Yet she's mired in a situation in which she has to take a heaping serving of shit every day from a parcel of clowns, and there appears to be no exit.
How would you advise such a person, in navigating these waters?
> I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
Two things:
1) You suspect a behavior on her part, but know that she can't get her good solutions implemented because of the suspected behavior?
2) I thought you said she is not bad socially. Yet, if I understood correctly, you believe she laughs at her coworkers' best efforts.
Not to downplay or ignore the very real possibility of culturally-embedded and unrecognized/unacknowledged gender bias among her coworkers - to the contrary, in fact - but getting along with people is one of the highest forms of merit a person can have in any environment involving a social element. The manner and degree of her coworkers' shortcomings in this regard in no way absolves her of that requirement.
On preview, what lunasol said.
posted by perspicio at 8:25 PM on October 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Two things:
1) You suspect a behavior on her part, but know that she can't get her good solutions implemented because of the suspected behavior?
2) I thought you said she is not bad socially. Yet, if I understood correctly, you believe she laughs at her coworkers' best efforts.
Not to downplay or ignore the very real possibility of culturally-embedded and unrecognized/unacknowledged gender bias among her coworkers - to the contrary, in fact - but getting along with people is one of the highest forms of merit a person can have in any environment involving a social element. The manner and degree of her coworkers' shortcomings in this regard in no way absolves her of that requirement.
On preview, what lunasol said.
posted by perspicio at 8:25 PM on October 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
I assume a lot of the tone and language of your post comes from speaking with your friend. The over-riding tone I get is contempt for her co-workers. That is not very smart to exhibit at work; there are different ways of being "intelligent", "brilliant" and "bright" and believing one's own type of smarts is the best usually leads to frustrated/angry people sneering at those succesful co-workers they deem "clowns". If she can't leave the job, then she is going to have to change her attitude. A professional coach would probably help her a lot.
posted by saucysault at 8:37 PM on October 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 8:37 PM on October 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
she's been gradually demeaned and demoted from a technology manager (to which role she's well suited) to a super-tech
Are you sure this was intended to be a demotion, or just a sideways move to a role into which she is clearly suited - you described her yourself as scary smart, and as solving everyones _technical_ problems (which is not the job of a technology manager!). In at least 50% of the organisations I've worked in, the "super-tech" role actually got paid _more_ than the person managing them, as recognition of it being a specialist skilled role.
Particularly: The injustice in this situation is tempered only by the fact that she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation. I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
If true, as a tech I would be deeply offended to be managed by her. I mean, by your description, I would literally rage quit in that situation. I agree it may be a terrible slight, but it sounds from your own description like she's more suited to a hands-on role than a hands-off people manager role. This is okay! Different people are allowed to have a different set of skills, and it is sad that her organisation does not recognise that!
I realise this is not the easiest option, but it really does sound to me like moving to a different organisation should be in her future.
posted by jaymzjulian at 9:04 PM on October 25, 2012 [5 favorites]
Are you sure this was intended to be a demotion, or just a sideways move to a role into which she is clearly suited - you described her yourself as scary smart, and as solving everyones _technical_ problems (which is not the job of a technology manager!). In at least 50% of the organisations I've worked in, the "super-tech" role actually got paid _more_ than the person managing them, as recognition of it being a specialist skilled role.
Particularly: The injustice in this situation is tempered only by the fact that she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation. I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
If true, as a tech I would be deeply offended to be managed by her. I mean, by your description, I would literally rage quit in that situation. I agree it may be a terrible slight, but it sounds from your own description like she's more suited to a hands-on role than a hands-off people manager role. This is okay! Different people are allowed to have a different set of skills, and it is sad that her organisation does not recognise that!
I realise this is not the easiest option, but it really does sound to me like moving to a different organisation should be in her future.
posted by jaymzjulian at 9:04 PM on October 25, 2012 [5 favorites]
I know there is some sexism in the workplace still, and perhaps the clannish and sexist nature of this workplace really is a problem. But somehow I am not totally convinced that is what's going on here. Your question reads as though you are mostly passing along your friend's version of events rather than having observed them yourself. And someone who actually laughs at her coworker's best efforts is not someone whose take on a situation I trust.
At any rate, what's definitely under her control is her own behaviour. So I'd tell her that she needs to focus some of that supposed intelligence of hers on the problem of getting along better with her coworkers.
I've worked with primadonna know-it-alls like this (including in IT), and they either man up (or woman up) and start getting along with the team, or they fail at their jobs. Period. Nobody is "smart" enough to afford alienating everyone else on their team.
posted by parrot_person at 9:36 PM on October 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
At any rate, what's definitely under her control is her own behaviour. So I'd tell her that she needs to focus some of that supposed intelligence of hers on the problem of getting along better with her coworkers.
I've worked with primadonna know-it-alls like this (including in IT), and they either man up (or woman up) and start getting along with the team, or they fail at their jobs. Period. Nobody is "smart" enough to afford alienating everyone else on their team.
posted by parrot_person at 9:36 PM on October 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Other people have covered the "do not laugh at people you manage!!" advice.
For the rest of the question, here are some strategies I've followed in cases where I found a workplace frustrating, clannish, or gender-slanted (I am a woman in a male-dominated technical field):
* If it's hard to fit into the group as a whole, identify the one or two most sympathetic individuals and chat with them one-on-one a few times. Once there's a bit of a rapport, gently bring the conversation around to group dynamics or other aspects of the workplace that you find a bit alien. Don't necessarily criticize or go on about your own concerns; just touch on the topic and then listen to what they say about it. Their remarks may reveal a lot about what the rest of the group thinks is going on, where priorities and concerns lie, and so on.
If you understand these things, even if you still don't really like the people, you will have an easier time navigating situations with them.
* If someone is doing something that you're inclined to write off as mind-numbingly stupid, it's worth turning around into a puzzle: why is this person doing this this way? Do they actually not know better? Is there some priority of theirs that I'm not aware of, that changes the equation? A habit or prejudice or assumption that is guiding them?
* If it's not a huge amount of skin off your nose, meet company cultural expectations even if you think they're pointless. If everyone cares about meetings starting on the hour precisely (for instance), then just do that, unless you have a genuine reason not to.
If it helps, make a deal with yourself that, if you conform to one pointless norm, you're allowed to counter that with some bit of self-expression that is unusual but doesn't offend against the prevailing culture. (Example: when everyone else was playing first person shooters on the local network during lunch time, I'd hang out in the same room but play a different type of game that I preferred; or I'd have books on my desk in genres no one else there read. It was a comfort to me to be visibly myself in those ways, didn't offend anyone or suggest disrespect, and gave my coworkers a hint of my personality and something to ask about if they did want to get to know me better.)
* Focus on outcomes you want to achieve. Don't fret too much about being overridden in areas you don't care about: other people might be wrong, your way might be better, but that's not top priority and you've got other things to deal with.
Where you do care, during work hours focus away from the anger and instead on the challenge. "In this social environment/with these management constraints/whatever, how could I present my case so that it succeeds? What would be a way of framing this proposal that addresses the concerns I know they have? Is there anyone in the group that I could approach in advance of the rest, who would be a helpful advocate for getting this idea through, or sounding board to tell me whether I've anticipated potential objections?"
* Develop habitual coping activities for when the anger builds up -- ideally, activities that can be performed outside the workplace. Go for a walk, take a lunch break and call a friend, hit the gym, whatever. Consciously release the stress in some fashion.
* Develop contacts with other women in tech roles outside your own workplace so that you have a ranting group/place to swap war stories.
posted by shattersock at 10:19 PM on October 25, 2012 [9 favorites]
For the rest of the question, here are some strategies I've followed in cases where I found a workplace frustrating, clannish, or gender-slanted (I am a woman in a male-dominated technical field):
* If it's hard to fit into the group as a whole, identify the one or two most sympathetic individuals and chat with them one-on-one a few times. Once there's a bit of a rapport, gently bring the conversation around to group dynamics or other aspects of the workplace that you find a bit alien. Don't necessarily criticize or go on about your own concerns; just touch on the topic and then listen to what they say about it. Their remarks may reveal a lot about what the rest of the group thinks is going on, where priorities and concerns lie, and so on.
If you understand these things, even if you still don't really like the people, you will have an easier time navigating situations with them.
* If someone is doing something that you're inclined to write off as mind-numbingly stupid, it's worth turning around into a puzzle: why is this person doing this this way? Do they actually not know better? Is there some priority of theirs that I'm not aware of, that changes the equation? A habit or prejudice or assumption that is guiding them?
* If it's not a huge amount of skin off your nose, meet company cultural expectations even if you think they're pointless. If everyone cares about meetings starting on the hour precisely (for instance), then just do that, unless you have a genuine reason not to.
If it helps, make a deal with yourself that, if you conform to one pointless norm, you're allowed to counter that with some bit of self-expression that is unusual but doesn't offend against the prevailing culture. (Example: when everyone else was playing first person shooters on the local network during lunch time, I'd hang out in the same room but play a different type of game that I preferred; or I'd have books on my desk in genres no one else there read. It was a comfort to me to be visibly myself in those ways, didn't offend anyone or suggest disrespect, and gave my coworkers a hint of my personality and something to ask about if they did want to get to know me better.)
* Focus on outcomes you want to achieve. Don't fret too much about being overridden in areas you don't care about: other people might be wrong, your way might be better, but that's not top priority and you've got other things to deal with.
Where you do care, during work hours focus away from the anger and instead on the challenge. "In this social environment/with these management constraints/whatever, how could I present my case so that it succeeds? What would be a way of framing this proposal that addresses the concerns I know they have? Is there anyone in the group that I could approach in advance of the rest, who would be a helpful advocate for getting this idea through, or sounding board to tell me whether I've anticipated potential objections?"
* Develop habitual coping activities for when the anger builds up -- ideally, activities that can be performed outside the workplace. Go for a walk, take a lunch break and call a friend, hit the gym, whatever. Consciously release the stress in some fashion.
* Develop contacts with other women in tech roles outside your own workplace so that you have a ranting group/place to swap war stories.
posted by shattersock at 10:19 PM on October 25, 2012 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I've been there. And while some of it is being not-awesome at teamwork, I wouldn't underestimate the role of sexism — there is a kind of microaggression that makes you seem like a nutso when you respond but is difficult to ignore, especially as a bright woman who suffers fools badly. Part of which is much higher expecations of pliancy and social fluency and suffering of fools.
Sadly, in both relevant cases the answer for me was to get a new job. Once you've reached the point of despair, no amount of coaching or reform is going to make you happy. But some coaching and more careful interviewing (you are interviewing them too!) should help make the next go-round better.
posted by dame at 10:19 PM on October 25, 2012 [4 favorites]
Sadly, in both relevant cases the answer for me was to get a new job. Once you've reached the point of despair, no amount of coaching or reform is going to make you happy. But some coaching and more careful interviewing (you are interviewing them too!) should help make the next go-round better.
posted by dame at 10:19 PM on October 25, 2012 [4 favorites]
Best answer: You note this is a Germanic society, which I think plays into this a bit. I am a female in tech and am quite often in Germany (though for an American company) and find that the relationships I have with our customers in Europe is very different than those I would have with customers in the States.
Female engineers are rare, rare, rare in Germany. To the point where I don't think I have met a German one yet. In the States, they aren't super common, but I'll meet one or two at each customer I visit. So, I've been seeing this pattern when I am introduced as the tech specialist to a new customer in Germany--they are in awe. Absolute awe during the first few meetings. I get the sense they feel like they are meeting a unicorn.
After a while, things calm down, and they realize that working with me is like working with anyone else, but that initial interaction can be really weird. It sounds like your friend is well past that point, but that initial interaction period might have set some odd expectations for her.
Germany is a very ordered society and not very flexible. You need to work within it and make space for yourself, not work from the outside and bust your way in. Unfortunately, I don't have any good advice for dealing with this situation head-on, other than follow the rules, THEN make waves. She needs to hit the reset button, though that is super difficult in any workplace once a pattern of interaction has developed.
posted by chiefthe at 12:00 AM on October 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Female engineers are rare, rare, rare in Germany. To the point where I don't think I have met a German one yet. In the States, they aren't super common, but I'll meet one or two at each customer I visit. So, I've been seeing this pattern when I am introduced as the tech specialist to a new customer in Germany--they are in awe. Absolute awe during the first few meetings. I get the sense they feel like they are meeting a unicorn.
After a while, things calm down, and they realize that working with me is like working with anyone else, but that initial interaction can be really weird. It sounds like your friend is well past that point, but that initial interaction period might have set some odd expectations for her.
Germany is a very ordered society and not very flexible. You need to work within it and make space for yourself, not work from the outside and bust your way in. Unfortunately, I don't have any good advice for dealing with this situation head-on, other than follow the rules, THEN make waves. She needs to hit the reset button, though that is super difficult in any workplace once a pattern of interaction has developed.
posted by chiefthe at 12:00 AM on October 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
If your friend is really that much scarily smarter than everyone else, it's just really hard to understand how getting another job would be such an impossibility for her. How could she be so smart and yet land herself in that position? Maybe she needs to brainstorm a little more and see if she hasn't overlooked a path that would allow her to change workplaces.
Anyway, although you do not work with your friend, you are very quick to demean the people she works with. Your friend basically laughing at them as she deftly designs "elegant" solutions they could, of course, never have come up with on their own--it sounds like she thinks these people are neanderthals. That she has "anger issues" as well is a big red flag to me.
Adults do not have "anger issues". Children who throw tantrums have anger issues. Adults, especially fantastically brilliant people like your friend, recognize the value of cultivating professional relationships. She needs to clamp down on the contempt she's feeling and probably displaying for these people who, clannish as they may be, were somehow managing to get things done before your brilliant friend appeared to show them the light.
She can and has solved the technical problems faced by the group she's in, yet those go un-appreciated or ignored for clunky alternative solutions created by the in-group.
Could there be a cultural or practical reason why their clunky alternatives actually are more acceptable? She's still working and pulling down a salary, so they must like at least some of her work. It seems unlikely the business would sabotage itself by not implementing the best solution, period.
The complaints were not about the quality of her work, though, but her attitude, that she is "too flippant and disrespectful" and that she doesn't laugh at their jokes. I think the latter is not meant to be taken so literally. Sounds like the perception is that feels she is too good to fraternize with these guys, yet expects her work to be given preference. That timeliness and order you mention that she is "ill-suited for" might be a big part of the problem. Is she not getting to work on time, not meeting deadlines, trying to take shortcuts, ignoring the accepted procedures? Perhaps their perception is that she has not paid her dues. She has yet to put in the time and the effort where they take her seriously. She feels they do not respect her, while they feel she has not earned their respect.
She does not have to "sweet talk" these men to change that perception.There's a lot of room between kissing ass and acting like one. She can find some middle ground.
posted by misha at 12:19 AM on October 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Anyway, although you do not work with your friend, you are very quick to demean the people she works with. Your friend basically laughing at them as she deftly designs "elegant" solutions they could, of course, never have come up with on their own--it sounds like she thinks these people are neanderthals. That she has "anger issues" as well is a big red flag to me.
Adults do not have "anger issues". Children who throw tantrums have anger issues. Adults, especially fantastically brilliant people like your friend, recognize the value of cultivating professional relationships. She needs to clamp down on the contempt she's feeling and probably displaying for these people who, clannish as they may be, were somehow managing to get things done before your brilliant friend appeared to show them the light.
She can and has solved the technical problems faced by the group she's in, yet those go un-appreciated or ignored for clunky alternative solutions created by the in-group.
Could there be a cultural or practical reason why their clunky alternatives actually are more acceptable? She's still working and pulling down a salary, so they must like at least some of her work. It seems unlikely the business would sabotage itself by not implementing the best solution, period.
The complaints were not about the quality of her work, though, but her attitude, that she is "too flippant and disrespectful" and that she doesn't laugh at their jokes. I think the latter is not meant to be taken so literally. Sounds like the perception is that feels she is too good to fraternize with these guys, yet expects her work to be given preference. That timeliness and order you mention that she is "ill-suited for" might be a big part of the problem. Is she not getting to work on time, not meeting deadlines, trying to take shortcuts, ignoring the accepted procedures? Perhaps their perception is that she has not paid her dues. She has yet to put in the time and the effort where they take her seriously. She feels they do not respect her, while they feel she has not earned their respect.
She does not have to "sweet talk" these men to change that perception.There's a lot of room between kissing ass and acting like one. She can find some middle ground.
posted by misha at 12:19 AM on October 26, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think at this point it would be very helpful if you gave us some idea why 'the obvious options' are closed to her. What struck me was that perhaps if she can't go and work for someone else, maybe she could work for herself, perhaps in a field like app development where it's feasible to run an extremely small shop and do only the most minimal work with clients.
posted by Acheman at 12:59 AM on October 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Acheman at 12:59 AM on October 26, 2012 [1 favorite]
People who obviously think they are superior to other people they work with are annoying to work with. If she's so wonderful, she should put her skills towards fixing those things that she scoffs at, regardless of what position she's in.
And yeah, technical skills -ne people skills.
posted by Diag at 3:31 AM on October 26, 2012
And yeah, technical skills -ne people skills.
posted by Diag at 3:31 AM on October 26, 2012
The job title is "technology manager" but the role is "people manager". She may be relegated to the technical implementation because she didn't manage people well. That is okay because many bright people aren't necessarily good at personal management. I know of people with astounding Doctoral experience in their fields who became a mess when they served as a department chair or various management roles. It sounds like frustrating experience, but there may be a reason. Hard to tell from a distance naturally.
posted by dgran at 6:11 AM on October 26, 2012
posted by dgran at 6:11 AM on October 26, 2012
It doesn't matter how smart you are, it matters how well you get along with your co-workers.
Your friend might know everything about everything having to do with her product set, but not being able to get along with her co-workers is a HUGE problem.
I recommend that she sit down and really evaluate each of her team-members. What are their strengths, where are they weak, what specific things should they do to get better? What tasks are they suited for?
No body is a waste of skin, and clearly this company that was smart enough to hire her, hired them for very good reasons.
She should work to her team-members strengths. If Gunter is good at documenting processes, but he's shit at design, then he should get the documentation part of the job. If Hans has decent design skills, but lacks an understanding of connectivity, then she should push him to get that knowledge. If Carl is a whiz at translating technology concepts to laypeople, then he should be the one to present new ideas to management.
As for the culture, I've been there, I've done that. I was a data sales engineer and I worked primarily with Latin American men. I had to walk the line between not allowing them to view me as a secretary (I never brought anyone coffee ortook the minutes of a meeting) and being friendly and approachable.
Your friend needs to lighten up, she needn't laugh at stupid jokes, but she shouldn't walk around pissed off and snappy all the time. She can set herself apart, but in the kindest way possible, "Oh Carl, you are a stitch. When you fellas are ready, let me know and we can start the project meeting."
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:29 AM on October 26, 2012
Your friend might know everything about everything having to do with her product set, but not being able to get along with her co-workers is a HUGE problem.
I recommend that she sit down and really evaluate each of her team-members. What are their strengths, where are they weak, what specific things should they do to get better? What tasks are they suited for?
No body is a waste of skin, and clearly this company that was smart enough to hire her, hired them for very good reasons.
She should work to her team-members strengths. If Gunter is good at documenting processes, but he's shit at design, then he should get the documentation part of the job. If Hans has decent design skills, but lacks an understanding of connectivity, then she should push him to get that knowledge. If Carl is a whiz at translating technology concepts to laypeople, then he should be the one to present new ideas to management.
As for the culture, I've been there, I've done that. I was a data sales engineer and I worked primarily with Latin American men. I had to walk the line between not allowing them to view me as a secretary (I never brought anyone coffee ortook the minutes of a meeting) and being friendly and approachable.
Your friend needs to lighten up, she needn't laugh at stupid jokes, but she shouldn't walk around pissed off and snappy all the time. She can set herself apart, but in the kindest way possible, "Oh Carl, you are a stitch. When you fellas are ready, let me know and we can start the project meeting."
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:29 AM on October 26, 2012
Your friend is on a team but is manifestly not a team player and doesn't appear to believe that she should have to be, because she believes that she is obviously better and smarter than everyone around her and why don't they just listen to her and do what she says?
She can and has solved the technical problems faced by the group she's in, yet those go un-appreciated or ignored for clunky alternative solutions created by the in-group. Her co-workers - in a Germanic society - alternately criticize her for 'not laughing at good jokes' and 'being too flippant and disrespectful'.
If one person says you're too flippant and disrespectful, you can laugh it off. If you hear it often then maybe there's something to it. Company culture is an actual thing, and no matter how stupid she might think it is, she needs to either make an attempt to go along with it or stop complaining that she doesn't fit in. Laugh at the boss's dumb jokes. It's not hard and it costs nothing.
She's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be in the society in which she finds herself, which is characterized by order, timeliness and (IMO) dreariness. She should get out of Dodge, yet she cannot.
I know you don't think it's worth getting into why she can't, but please do elaborate.
Therefore, she has to navigate a male-dominated and clannish society to which her contributions are elegant and straightforward, but routinely ignored and very often sneered at.
Okay. Check it out.
If my company had someone who was obviously, scintillatingly brilliant and who routinely came up with elegant, straightforward solutions, I would be thrilled. I would love that. And they'd have to go a very long way for me to treat them as anything other than gold. I would tolerate a lot from them.
If your friend truly is a genius who solves problems effortlessly, but is ignored and sneered at, she needs to ask herself what else is going on. Now, maybe it's sexism. I really don't know, because I don't know the environment or the people involved. What I do know is that your description of your friend sounds like someone who insists she's intelligent but is unwilling to play the social game, either because she thinks she's above it or whatever, and honestly she sounds kind of like a jerk.
Seriously - she's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be timely? Orderly? It's a company! She's an engineer! Have a bit of order to your shit and be on time for things. These are completely normal expectations.
The injustice in this situation is tempered only by the fact that she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation.
That's her problem and she needs to work on it. She's part of a team. You insist she's well-suited to a management role and then spend the rest of your post detailing the ways in which she's not really good with people. If she's unequipped for anything but a merit-based situation then she needs to, I don't know, make a living by entering competitions and winning them or whatever. If she wants to work at a company, she needs to start treating the people around her like she's people.
I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
Seriously, her problem. "Ha! That's such a stupid solution. Now let me tell you about my good one that you should use." I wouldn't listen to her either. She needs to learn to work within a group dynamic, not just get angry that the best person isn't the most favored.
In short - this woman is scary smart, above all of the people I have met save maybe one who is now the director of an Air Force systems command. She is that good.
Smart as she may be, this woman doesn't seem to understand that there's more to intelligence than the computational power of a person's brain. Her brain, her skills, her solutions are useless - worse than useless - if she can't function as part of a team. From your description, she either can't or won't.
This is something that happens a lot with people on the smarter end of things - they get a weird sort of laziness. They do the things they're good at very well but don't often step outside their comfort zone. Your friend needs to learn about how to interact with people. She should try seeing this as a puzzle to solve. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she won't see why she should have to. But she does, and that's that.
Yet she's mired in a situation in which she has to take a heaping serving of shit every day from a parcel of clowns, and there appears to be no exit.
I would wager a small amount of money that the parcel of clowns in question probably would say something similar about how much shit they take from her in terms of snappishness and condescension.
How would you advise such a person, in navigating these waters?
I would advise such a person to get over herself.
As with most answers involving effecting long-lasting personal change, I would suggest talking to a therapist.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:03 AM on October 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
She can and has solved the technical problems faced by the group she's in, yet those go un-appreciated or ignored for clunky alternative solutions created by the in-group. Her co-workers - in a Germanic society - alternately criticize her for 'not laughing at good jokes' and 'being too flippant and disrespectful'.
If one person says you're too flippant and disrespectful, you can laugh it off. If you hear it often then maybe there's something to it. Company culture is an actual thing, and no matter how stupid she might think it is, she needs to either make an attempt to go along with it or stop complaining that she doesn't fit in. Laugh at the boss's dumb jokes. It's not hard and it costs nothing.
She's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be in the society in which she finds herself, which is characterized by order, timeliness and (IMO) dreariness. She should get out of Dodge, yet she cannot.
I know you don't think it's worth getting into why she can't, but please do elaborate.
Therefore, she has to navigate a male-dominated and clannish society to which her contributions are elegant and straightforward, but routinely ignored and very often sneered at.
Okay. Check it out.
If my company had someone who was obviously, scintillatingly brilliant and who routinely came up with elegant, straightforward solutions, I would be thrilled. I would love that. And they'd have to go a very long way for me to treat them as anything other than gold. I would tolerate a lot from them.
If your friend truly is a genius who solves problems effortlessly, but is ignored and sneered at, she needs to ask herself what else is going on. Now, maybe it's sexism. I really don't know, because I don't know the environment or the people involved. What I do know is that your description of your friend sounds like someone who insists she's intelligent but is unwilling to play the social game, either because she thinks she's above it or whatever, and honestly she sounds kind of like a jerk.
Seriously - she's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be timely? Orderly? It's a company! She's an engineer! Have a bit of order to your shit and be on time for things. These are completely normal expectations.
The injustice in this situation is tempered only by the fact that she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation.
That's her problem and she needs to work on it. She's part of a team. You insist she's well-suited to a management role and then spend the rest of your post detailing the ways in which she's not really good with people. If she's unequipped for anything but a merit-based situation then she needs to, I don't know, make a living by entering competitions and winning them or whatever. If she wants to work at a company, she needs to start treating the people around her like she's people.
I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems she solves completely in a few minutes, which would definitely offend the group. Because they are offended she cannot get her good solutions implemented.
Seriously, her problem. "Ha! That's such a stupid solution. Now let me tell you about my good one that you should use." I wouldn't listen to her either. She needs to learn to work within a group dynamic, not just get angry that the best person isn't the most favored.
In short - this woman is scary smart, above all of the people I have met save maybe one who is now the director of an Air Force systems command. She is that good.
Smart as she may be, this woman doesn't seem to understand that there's more to intelligence than the computational power of a person's brain. Her brain, her skills, her solutions are useless - worse than useless - if she can't function as part of a team. From your description, she either can't or won't.
This is something that happens a lot with people on the smarter end of things - they get a weird sort of laziness. They do the things they're good at very well but don't often step outside their comfort zone. Your friend needs to learn about how to interact with people. She should try seeing this as a puzzle to solve. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she won't see why she should have to. But she does, and that's that.
Yet she's mired in a situation in which she has to take a heaping serving of shit every day from a parcel of clowns, and there appears to be no exit.
I would wager a small amount of money that the parcel of clowns in question probably would say something similar about how much shit they take from her in terms of snappishness and condescension.
How would you advise such a person, in navigating these waters?
I would advise such a person to get over herself.
As with most answers involving effecting long-lasting personal change, I would suggest talking to a therapist.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:03 AM on October 26, 2012 [3 favorites]
she's been gradually demeaned and demoted from a technology manager (to which role she's well suited) to a super-tech
....
socially not bad, with anger issues ... She's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be in the society in which she finds herself, ... she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation. I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems
She is at best suited to be a super-tech, not a technology manager.
she has to take a heaping serving of shit every day from a parcel of clowns
You know, even the engineers I think are not the smartest people I know are still really, really smart. If someone I worked with called the smart but-not-smartest people in my workplace "a parcel of clowns", I would want to get rid of that person or at least, if he were especially talented, place him in a quiet room somewhere where he could solve his own problems and stop bothering everyone else.
The advice I would give would be similar to all the people who found high school easy because they were so smart but then whined about all the hard work they had to do in college: grow up and get with the program. Or possibly go someplace else that is a better cultural fit and better for your personal temperament.
posted by deanc at 9:24 AM on October 26, 2012
....
socially not bad, with anger issues ... She's ill-suited by nature and inclination to be in the society in which she finds herself, ... she is completely un-equipped for anything but a merit-based situation. I suspect she laughs at clunky implementations of bad solutions to problems
She is at best suited to be a super-tech, not a technology manager.
she has to take a heaping serving of shit every day from a parcel of clowns
You know, even the engineers I think are not the smartest people I know are still really, really smart. If someone I worked with called the smart but-not-smartest people in my workplace "a parcel of clowns", I would want to get rid of that person or at least, if he were especially talented, place him in a quiet room somewhere where he could solve his own problems and stop bothering everyone else.
The advice I would give would be similar to all the people who found high school easy because they were so smart but then whined about all the hard work they had to do in college: grow up and get with the program. Or possibly go someplace else that is a better cultural fit and better for your personal temperament.
posted by deanc at 9:24 AM on October 26, 2012
Best answer: Here's what I would tell her:
1) Your brain is good for more than just writing code. You can apply your problem-solving ability to your life. If you find a problem that seems intractable, try looking at it a different way -- when you come to a wall you can't climb, you know you can go around it, make a hole and go through, go a different direction entirely, any number of things. Apply this to your life.
1a) These life and work issues are important enough to merit serious study. If she's that intelligent, she probably won't trust what other people say. She needs to go find her own answers.
2) You need to figure out what you really want. That's step one. After that, solving for what you want, or at least figuring out how to approach solving the problem, will be much clearer.
Here's something relevant I learned lately (behavioral economics and other readings): while Freud's work has been largely discredited, the idea of dividing the mind into different systems hasn't. There is a part of people that is like a child or an animal, and the other parts of the mind can benefit, and benefit from, that part. She probably needs some kind of comfort -- ideally from connections to other humans -- to be able to find the strength to live well. This comfort can come from just being reminded that some people somewhere will talk to her and recognize her as an individual (to the extent they can).
Also, if she doesn't speak English, she could probably learn easily. It does sound like she'd be a lot happier in a different culture. Whatever stands between her and a different position, she's probably smart enough to find a way through it.
posted by amtho at 11:26 AM on October 26, 2012
1) Your brain is good for more than just writing code. You can apply your problem-solving ability to your life. If you find a problem that seems intractable, try looking at it a different way -- when you come to a wall you can't climb, you know you can go around it, make a hole and go through, go a different direction entirely, any number of things. Apply this to your life.
1a) These life and work issues are important enough to merit serious study. If she's that intelligent, she probably won't trust what other people say. She needs to go find her own answers.
2) You need to figure out what you really want. That's step one. After that, solving for what you want, or at least figuring out how to approach solving the problem, will be much clearer.
Here's something relevant I learned lately (behavioral economics and other readings): while Freud's work has been largely discredited, the idea of dividing the mind into different systems hasn't. There is a part of people that is like a child or an animal, and the other parts of the mind can benefit, and benefit from, that part. She probably needs some kind of comfort -- ideally from connections to other humans -- to be able to find the strength to live well. This comfort can come from just being reminded that some people somewhere will talk to her and recognize her as an individual (to the extent they can).
Also, if she doesn't speak English, she could probably learn easily. It does sound like she'd be a lot happier in a different culture. Whatever stands between her and a different position, she's probably smart enough to find a way through it.
posted by amtho at 11:26 AM on October 26, 2012
Response by poster: Folks, thanks for the help.
I have left people with a misconception for which I am solely responsible. My friend would never, ever laugh in anyone's face about anything. She has a gentle and Socratic way of testing for understanding, and is far too well-mannered to get snotty in the way I see my flawed statement implying, so please take it as:
I suspect she laughs *to herself* at clunky implementations...
posted by jet_silver at 8:49 PM on October 29, 2012
I have left people with a misconception for which I am solely responsible. My friend would never, ever laugh in anyone's face about anything. She has a gentle and Socratic way of testing for understanding, and is far too well-mannered to get snotty in the way I see my flawed statement implying, so please take it as:
I suspect she laughs *to herself* at clunky implementations...
posted by jet_silver at 8:49 PM on October 29, 2012
I suspect she laughs *to herself* at clunky implementations...
The best response I ever heard to judgmental complaints about "clunky" implementations:
The system got built quickly, which allowed it to be deployed, which increased revenue for the company, which gave us money to hire you, which is why you have a job.
posted by deanc at 12:41 PM on November 15, 2012
The best response I ever heard to judgmental complaints about "clunky" implementations:
The system got built quickly, which allowed it to be deployed, which increased revenue for the company, which gave us money to hire you, which is why you have a job.
posted by deanc at 12:41 PM on November 15, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
I have sympathy for your friend, but if she's actually doing this, it could get her sidelined in any firm. I mean, if she was literally laughing at the people she managed, then it was probably good that she was demoted.
I don't say this lightly - as someone who has been in similar situations and known (mostly) women in similar situations, I don't doubt that sexism is an issue. Women are unfortunately held to a higher standard of behavior and more easily dismissed for being a "bitch" or over-critical. So it really kind of pains me to be saying this.
But honestly, one's technical skill is only one part of being good at one's job. You also need to be able to work with a team, collaborate, etc. This isn't about "sweet-talking," it's about treating your co-workers with respect. I mean, you can have the best ideas in the world, but if you treat everyone else like they're idiots, they're not going to listen to you.
So I guess I would suggest working to learn how to promote her ideas more effectively and develop some team/collaboration skills.
posted by lunasol at 8:22 PM on October 25, 2012 [5 favorites]