How to deal with uncomfortably flirty behavior at work?
August 28, 2012 6:16 PM Subscribe
Not sexual harassment but still uncomfortable. How to deal?
My husband (Fred, in his late 20’s) recently got a new job at an office with about 5 ladies and a couple of men (all of them in their late 40s). I intern at this office so I get to spend a lot of time there, too.
From the beginning, several of the ladies got excited and kept talking about how handsome Fred is. They mentioned it to me (many, many times) and to him (fewer times, but still quite a few). This was amusing at the beginning but after a while it got irritating, and in the end it started making Fred super uncomfortable.
What’s more, there is this lady (Susan) who we think is developing a crush on him. The nature of Fred’s work requires that he spends a lot of time driving around the city and sometimes doing physical work. Susan finds ways to help him on these days and ends up spending hours with him. She calls him a lot for non- call-worthy stuff (after 5 and on weekends, too) and also texts, and greets him with (too much) effusion. She has made comments like how her husband isn’t at home at a given moment and how Fred is “her hero”, and has insisted on buying Fred lunch so they could eat together. What makes it even more obvious is that she isn’t like this to anyone else. She is serious, dry and to the point with the rest of us. She has also started giving me serious attitude, especially when we do couple things like going to lunch together.
We really don’t know what to do about this. I mean she hasn’t done anything overtly inappropriate, but the vibe is borderline flirty (as in putting her bare feet up on my husband’s car’s dashboard when riding next to him). I don’t mind it from an SO point of view (this is not a trust issue), but I do mind it because Fred is an introvert and this sort of stuff stresses him out. Objectively, we both know he’s hot, but we also think that if he were a woman then behavior like this would not be considered “OK”.
He feels ashamed by the general comments and more so by Susan’s advances, but he does not want to report to HR because he feels it's not that serious, or that they will think he’s being ridiculous, plus he doesn’t want to complicate things at work. We both fear that this lady’s behavior may get flirtier for him in the future, and less welcoming for me. He would also like to stop feeling objectified. What to do?
My husband (Fred, in his late 20’s) recently got a new job at an office with about 5 ladies and a couple of men (all of them in their late 40s). I intern at this office so I get to spend a lot of time there, too.
From the beginning, several of the ladies got excited and kept talking about how handsome Fred is. They mentioned it to me (many, many times) and to him (fewer times, but still quite a few). This was amusing at the beginning but after a while it got irritating, and in the end it started making Fred super uncomfortable.
What’s more, there is this lady (Susan) who we think is developing a crush on him. The nature of Fred’s work requires that he spends a lot of time driving around the city and sometimes doing physical work. Susan finds ways to help him on these days and ends up spending hours with him. She calls him a lot for non- call-worthy stuff (after 5 and on weekends, too) and also texts, and greets him with (too much) effusion. She has made comments like how her husband isn’t at home at a given moment and how Fred is “her hero”, and has insisted on buying Fred lunch so they could eat together. What makes it even more obvious is that she isn’t like this to anyone else. She is serious, dry and to the point with the rest of us. She has also started giving me serious attitude, especially when we do couple things like going to lunch together.
We really don’t know what to do about this. I mean she hasn’t done anything overtly inappropriate, but the vibe is borderline flirty (as in putting her bare feet up on my husband’s car’s dashboard when riding next to him). I don’t mind it from an SO point of view (this is not a trust issue), but I do mind it because Fred is an introvert and this sort of stuff stresses him out. Objectively, we both know he’s hot, but we also think that if he were a woman then behavior like this would not be considered “OK”.
He feels ashamed by the general comments and more so by Susan’s advances, but he does not want to report to HR because he feels it's not that serious, or that they will think he’s being ridiculous, plus he doesn’t want to complicate things at work. We both fear that this lady’s behavior may get flirtier for him in the future, and less welcoming for me. He would also like to stop feeling objectified. What to do?
Talk to HR, or the supervisor. I speak as a person who works in HR.
posted by SMPA at 6:24 PM on August 28, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by SMPA at 6:24 PM on August 28, 2012 [7 favorites]
Er, how is this "not sexual harrassment"?You recognize it wouldn't be okay if a man did this to a woman. Why is it any different because the genders are reversed?
I suggest Fred quietly push back. Let her know the not really work related calls during off hours are not okay. Advise whomever is in charge that it is not okay for this woman to arrange "quality time" alone with Fred. Try to arrange it so she can't keep doing that. He can be very unwarm to things she says.
I think it is harrassment. It sounds downright stalkerish to me.
posted by Michele in California at 6:25 PM on August 28, 2012 [27 favorites]
I suggest Fred quietly push back. Let her know the not really work related calls during off hours are not okay. Advise whomever is in charge that it is not okay for this woman to arrange "quality time" alone with Fred. Try to arrange it so she can't keep doing that. He can be very unwarm to things she says.
I think it is harrassment. It sounds downright stalkerish to me.
posted by Michele in California at 6:25 PM on August 28, 2012 [27 favorites]
It's making him uncomfortable, he should report it to HR or his supervisor; you should probably stay well out of it. That's what HR is there for -- no one should have to put up with inappropriate behavior, male or female.
If I were him, I'd also do whatever I can to avoid the ride-alongs from Susan and no more taking calls from her after work hours. No thanks to the lunch dates too.
posted by pantarei70 at 6:26 PM on August 28, 2012 [4 favorites]
If I were him, I'd also do whatever I can to avoid the ride-alongs from Susan and no more taking calls from her after work hours. No thanks to the lunch dates too.
posted by pantarei70 at 6:26 PM on August 28, 2012 [4 favorites]
Yes, she's hitting on him. BIGtime.
If this was a man there'd be no question in anyone's mind. Seriously.
He needs to shut her down and put her firmly in the "work colleague only" bucket.
No answering calls or texts outside of work hours.
Politely decline requests to accompany him on his rounds. If she's claiming a work justification for her go-alongs, he's well within his rights to either visit HR or speak to their common manager privately, and say that he feels she's hitting on him, it makes him uncomfortable, and he's prefer it if she was kept from accompanying him on his drives.
He can bring his own lunch, and he can politely decline when she tries to buy his lunch. If she's showing up at his desk with food, polite again and cite previous plans.
Etc.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 6:29 PM on August 28, 2012 [4 favorites]
If this was a man there'd be no question in anyone's mind. Seriously.
He needs to shut her down and put her firmly in the "work colleague only" bucket.
No answering calls or texts outside of work hours.
Politely decline requests to accompany him on his rounds. If she's claiming a work justification for her go-alongs, he's well within his rights to either visit HR or speak to their common manager privately, and say that he feels she's hitting on him, it makes him uncomfortable, and he's prefer it if she was kept from accompanying him on his drives.
He can bring his own lunch, and he can politely decline when she tries to buy his lunch. If she's showing up at his desk with food, polite again and cite previous plans.
Etc.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 6:29 PM on August 28, 2012 [4 favorites]
What to do?
He should tell her to she's making him uncomfortable and to knock it off. He should start turning down her offers to help, stop answering her calls and texts after work, etc.
If she continues, then go to HR, but otherwise, Fred hasn't said anything to indicate she's bothering him. He should do that first, before going to HR.
He, and you, should feel free to shut her down anytime there's a hint she gets an attitude with you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 PM on August 28, 2012 [27 favorites]
He should tell her to she's making him uncomfortable and to knock it off. He should start turning down her offers to help, stop answering her calls and texts after work, etc.
If she continues, then go to HR, but otherwise, Fred hasn't said anything to indicate she's bothering him. He should do that first, before going to HR.
He, and you, should feel free to shut her down anytime there's a hint she gets an attitude with you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 PM on August 28, 2012 [27 favorites]
Let me state for the record that if that were my husband that I would certainly feel he was being sexually harrassed. And late forties? That woman is old enough to know better.
If he won't go to HR then he has to speak up to her. Refuse food, speak only to her on work related matters, etc.
And get a nice 5 by 7 or larger photo of you to display prominently on his desk. The photo is a technique my husband has used when he was a realtor and worked with and for a lot of flirtatious ladies. For him it helped.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:38 PM on August 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
If he won't go to HR then he has to speak up to her. Refuse food, speak only to her on work related matters, etc.
And get a nice 5 by 7 or larger photo of you to display prominently on his desk. The photo is a technique my husband has used when he was a realtor and worked with and for a lot of flirtatious ladies. For him it helped.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:38 PM on August 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I would like to clarify, he insists that it's not sexual harassment (I think it makes him feel better to think that label doesn't apply...yet) and he thinks people will mock him if he calls it that. I do think it is! But I can't make him report...
posted by ADent at 6:43 PM on August 28, 2012
posted by ADent at 6:43 PM on August 28, 2012
When she calls, he should not answer. When she asks why, he needs to tell her, "I don't feel comfortable with you calling me outside of work or after hours." He needs to stop accepting any and all invitations to lunch or whatever from her. And if she starts to pout, he would be well within his rights to say, loudly enough so others can hear, "Susan, you are making me really uncomfortable." If she volunteers to help him on drive-outs, he needs to say, IMMEDIATELY, "No thank you, I've got this" and tell his supervisor that her behavior makes him uncomfortable.
Your husband is wrong about the sexual harassment part -- and he deserves to go to work without this woman bugging him.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:45 PM on August 28, 2012 [5 favorites]
Your husband is wrong about the sexual harassment part -- and he deserves to go to work without this woman bugging him.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:45 PM on August 28, 2012 [5 favorites]
I would like to clarify, he insists that it's not sexual harassment (I think it makes him feel better to think that label doesn't apply...yet) and he thinks people will mock him if he calls it that. I do think it is! But I can't make him report...
Your clarification makes this tougher. I do agree this is pretty clear cut harassment, but if he's not comfortable reporting it, you're right, you can't make him. Can you gently point out what does make this harassment? I would just discuss it with him and keep circling back to the fact that you feel this is best handled by a supervisor.
posted by sweetkid at 6:53 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your clarification makes this tougher. I do agree this is pretty clear cut harassment, but if he's not comfortable reporting it, you're right, you can't make him. Can you gently point out what does make this harassment? I would just discuss it with him and keep circling back to the fact that you feel this is best handled by a supervisor.
posted by sweetkid at 6:53 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
This woman is harassing him but reporting sexual harassment to HR isn't something he should undertake lightly. If he does go to them, I think he tell them that he just wants to get the situation onto the record, because he's going to be shutting it down from now on and he wants them to know what's going on, in case it doesn't go well.
Then shut it down. He needs to not answer texts outside of work hours or on non-work topics. When she wants to ride along, just say no. "I'm going to do this one alone, thanks." "No thank you" to the lunch invitations.
Give this two weeks and see how it goes. If it hasn't gotten better, then you can always go back to HR and give them the green light to step in.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:55 PM on August 28, 2012 [3 favorites]
Then shut it down. He needs to not answer texts outside of work hours or on non-work topics. When she wants to ride along, just say no. "I'm going to do this one alone, thanks." "No thank you" to the lunch invitations.
Give this two weeks and see how it goes. If it hasn't gotten better, then you can always go back to HR and give them the green light to step in.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:55 PM on August 28, 2012 [3 favorites]
I mean, he can always go back to HR. Not you. You should stay 100% out of it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:56 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:56 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Oh, and (sorry to ride but this is important) explain to your husband that this first contact with HR isn't for him to tattle, but rather for him to cover his ass, because it is super common in these situations for a spurned harasser to turn things around and claim that they were actually the victim of the harassment. I have seen this happen; and it's quite helpful to have made a record early on of how things actually are. It protects the company too, they should appreciate it. Just make that first contact with HR to let them know what's up. He doesn't have to use the words "sexual harassment" (and probably shouldn't, right off the bat); just say "I wanted to let you guys know about the strange way Susan's been acting to me. I've been trying to be nice about it but it hasn't been working, so I'm going to be asking her pointedly to stop it, and just in case things get unpleasant, I wanted you guys to know what's going on."
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:05 PM on August 28, 2012 [56 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:05 PM on August 28, 2012 [56 favorites]
I'm really amazed at the nerve of this woman getting her heavy flirt on WHILE THE DUDE'S WIFE IS RIGHT THERE. I fear Fred will need to resort to heavy shutdown mode on her (if he refuses to go to HR) because this is not a woman who pays attention to no's and social mores easily. He needs to only interact with her the bare minimum that he has to for work.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:07 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:07 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Ask him what he would advise you to do if the roles were reversed and a man in the office was behaving this way towards you.
posted by chiababe at 7:15 PM on August 28, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by chiababe at 7:15 PM on August 28, 2012 [3 favorites]
Is he answering her calls? Is he willingly going to lunch with her alone? Are you enduring her remarks silently? If so, I agree with Fred, and I think it is ridiculous to go to HR. I realize Fred is shy, and confrontation is scary for introverts, but he must draw a polite line in the sand before he brings in others. For example, no answering calls outside of work. If she says something rude to you, say, "That makes me feel bad." If she puts her feet up, you can say, "Oh, please don't."You can let her know what is up subtly. After it is clear, if she persists, I might go to HR.
posted by amodelcitizen at 7:21 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by amodelcitizen at 7:21 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
He just needs to become less available. He shouldn't respond to any off-the-clock calls/texts and she shouldn't accompany him anywhere unless she has to for work reasons. If she says she has to (if she really doesn't) then he just has to say no.
posted by heyjude at 7:28 PM on August 28, 2012
posted by heyjude at 7:28 PM on August 28, 2012
If Fred is unwilling to go to HR, would it be possible for him to try my mother's strategy for letting assholes save face? When Susan says something inappropriate, the Mum method would be to say, "Susan, I know you're kidding around, but someone else might think that what you just said was sexual harassment. Maybe cool it with that kind of joke; you wouldn't want to wind up in trouble with HR."
I think he should go to HR, but.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:29 PM on August 28, 2012 [25 favorites]
I think he should go to HR, but.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:29 PM on August 28, 2012 [25 favorites]
He doesn't have to acknowledge the behavior as harassment to acknowledge that she's hitting on him. If he can concede that she's flirting with him (at LEAST), then he can concede that he needs to stop that happening if he wants to remain a happily married man.
No phone calls or texts outside business hours, no more drive-alongs, no more lunches together unless the whole team is eating together. Just ask him to enforce business-appropriate social boundaries.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:29 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
No phone calls or texts outside business hours, no more drive-alongs, no more lunches together unless the whole team is eating together. Just ask him to enforce business-appropriate social boundaries.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 8:29 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Start with the diary - you don't know how she will spin this when Fred rejects the move she's gonna put on him. Start a diary now - this ASKME is a good first entry.
Bugger it - I mean it's work, she should grow up and act appropriately in the workplace.
posted by mattoxic at 8:44 PM on August 28, 2012
Bugger it - I mean it's work, she should grow up and act appropriately in the workplace.
posted by mattoxic at 8:44 PM on August 28, 2012
Given that she is becoming hostile towards you and you are an intern there, I do not see why you cannot go to HR yo report your part of the problem. Too bad, so sad if the rest comes out in "discovery" so to speak.
posted by Michele in California at 8:54 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Michele in California at 8:54 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
If my partner didn't shut this type of behaviour down quickly, I'd be pissed. Does he secretly like the attention? Why does he respond after work hours are finished? My ex had a problem with her clients being too clingy and needy during all hours... they wanted to hang out as friends as well. Eventually, I had to tell her to put her foot down and tell them that her private time is her time and that she'll see them during their scheduled appointment (in your husband's case, at work, when need be). I think the ball's completely in his court and he's choosing not to put an end to it. If it's making you and him uncomfortable, he needs to stop enabling her to keep it up.
posted by DorothySmith at 9:13 PM on August 28, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by DorothySmith at 9:13 PM on August 28, 2012 [5 favorites]
Seconding CYA on this. It could turn very nasty fast if he puts her at arm's length and she decides to spin things to where he was sexually harassing her.
He doesn't have to call it harassment (he may not be comfortable with you calling it harassment or stalking) but he should go to the boss and HR and mention to them that she's being 'weird' about coming on to him. Even if he just casually mentions it to his boss as a question: "Is it me, or is Susan coming on to me all the time? It's weirding me out and annoying my wife." The boss might just take it upon himself to speak to her, or if he can't be arsed to do that, at least your husband has mentioned it.
Is there anyone else in the office that has noticed or mentioned anything? You might start keeping a journal of her more egregious offenses, and if they are public, catch the eye of a coworker and raise an eyebrow to see if they notice. If it comes down to testimony, you may then have an impartial witness.
As an intern, I'm not sure it would be a good move to go to the boss or HR. I'd tend to put my head down and slog through her petty bullshit with maybe an occasionally minor passive-aggressive act and plenty of "Bless your heart."
posted by BlueHorse at 9:17 PM on August 28, 2012
He doesn't have to call it harassment (he may not be comfortable with you calling it harassment or stalking) but he should go to the boss and HR and mention to them that she's being 'weird' about coming on to him. Even if he just casually mentions it to his boss as a question: "Is it me, or is Susan coming on to me all the time? It's weirding me out and annoying my wife." The boss might just take it upon himself to speak to her, or if he can't be arsed to do that, at least your husband has mentioned it.
Is there anyone else in the office that has noticed or mentioned anything? You might start keeping a journal of her more egregious offenses, and if they are public, catch the eye of a coworker and raise an eyebrow to see if they notice. If it comes down to testimony, you may then have an impartial witness.
As an intern, I'm not sure it would be a good move to go to the boss or HR. I'd tend to put my head down and slog through her petty bullshit with maybe an occasionally minor passive-aggressive act and plenty of "Bless your heart."
posted by BlueHorse at 9:17 PM on August 28, 2012
> the vibe is borderline flirty (as in putting her bare feet up on my husband’s car’s dashboard when riding next to him).
Oh dear, not borderline at all, this woman is making an utter fool of herself, acting like a teenager. It's totally inappropriate. Your husband is being kind of a pushover, though, he really should set some boundaries to limit opportunities for this behavior from her. I'm not saying that he's to blame, just that he is in the best position to discourage her.
No reason for him to reply to off-hours requests or let he ride along or accept her gifts of lunch -- he can just smile pleasantly and say "no, thanks" repeatedly.
posted by desuetude at 10:20 PM on August 28, 2012
Oh dear, not borderline at all, this woman is making an utter fool of herself, acting like a teenager. It's totally inappropriate. Your husband is being kind of a pushover, though, he really should set some boundaries to limit opportunities for this behavior from her. I'm not saying that he's to blame, just that he is in the best position to discourage her.
No reason for him to reply to off-hours requests or let he ride along or accept her gifts of lunch -- he can just smile pleasantly and say "no, thanks" repeatedly.
posted by desuetude at 10:20 PM on August 28, 2012
If he's outright refusing to go to HR, then obviously you can't force him. And while I'm tempted to say go on his behalf, that would probably backfire spectacularly.
One thing that did occur to me is, is he making a note of all of these interactions? If he's not, could you do it for him? As others have mentioned, this could be spun around to the point where she is complaining about him. Having a list of what actually happened when will come in quite handy at that point.
Also, maybe you could use the fact that she's giving you serious attitude to try to encourage Fred to go to HR. Or maybe just go to HR yourself with that tidbit, sexual harassment issues aside. You needn't necessarily mention the fact that Susan is all over your husband like a rash.
In the company I work for, sexual harassment isn't defined just as touching - it's pretty much anything that means someone is too close to another, be that emotionally, verbally, etc. And it doesn't have to start out with the harasser intending to make the other person feel uncomfortable.
In my experience, people who behave like this do it because they either don't care about social rules like this, or they don't know about social rules like this. Sometimes, they need things explaining to them before they escalate.
posted by Solomon at 11:07 PM on August 28, 2012
One thing that did occur to me is, is he making a note of all of these interactions? If he's not, could you do it for him? As others have mentioned, this could be spun around to the point where she is complaining about him. Having a list of what actually happened when will come in quite handy at that point.
Also, maybe you could use the fact that she's giving you serious attitude to try to encourage Fred to go to HR. Or maybe just go to HR yourself with that tidbit, sexual harassment issues aside. You needn't necessarily mention the fact that Susan is all over your husband like a rash.
In the company I work for, sexual harassment isn't defined just as touching - it's pretty much anything that means someone is too close to another, be that emotionally, verbally, etc. And it doesn't have to start out with the harasser intending to make the other person feel uncomfortable.
In my experience, people who behave like this do it because they either don't care about social rules like this, or they don't know about social rules like this. Sometimes, they need things explaining to them before they escalate.
posted by Solomon at 11:07 PM on August 28, 2012
This is so easy.
Your husband really needs to draw some boundaries. He has not been drawing boundaries so far, hence the escalation by Susan. She has not yet seen a red light, she will not stop until she does.
You work in this office too? It's appalling he has not shut this woman down yet!
If he has trouble developing a backbone and politely drawing some firm lines, here is something you BOTH need to understand:
NEITHER ONE OF YOU NEEDS THIS GIG, AND YOU SHOULD BOTH BE WILLING AND PREPARED TO WALK.
You both need to cultivate this attitude, at any job, but especially when you work for the same employer.
----
This is an issue of empowerment. He should not put up with this treatment, nor should you. It will poison your relationship, eventually. It kinda already is.
Re-affirm to each other that your union is more important than the playing politics for a paycheck or resume experience.
That should solve it. Having the right attitude makes doing the right thing practically effortless.
posted by jbenben at 11:25 PM on August 28, 2012 [3 favorites]
Your husband really needs to draw some boundaries. He has not been drawing boundaries so far, hence the escalation by Susan. She has not yet seen a red light, she will not stop until she does.
You work in this office too? It's appalling he has not shut this woman down yet!
If he has trouble developing a backbone and politely drawing some firm lines, here is something you BOTH need to understand:
NEITHER ONE OF YOU NEEDS THIS GIG, AND YOU SHOULD BOTH BE WILLING AND PREPARED TO WALK.
You both need to cultivate this attitude, at any job, but especially when you work for the same employer.
----
This is an issue of empowerment. He should not put up with this treatment, nor should you. It will poison your relationship, eventually. It kinda already is.
Re-affirm to each other that your union is more important than the playing politics for a paycheck or resume experience.
That should solve it. Having the right attitude makes doing the right thing practically effortless.
posted by jbenben at 11:25 PM on August 28, 2012 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Okay. This sounds really weird, but one of the reasons why he thinks a complaint wouldn't go down well is because the other ladies seem to think it's fine to comment and joke on his being good-looking, too.
For example, his former supervisor (she retired a couple of weeks ago) used to rub her legs against his under the table "as a joke" during staff meetings and he did tell her he was uncomfortable with it, but it did not stop, and she pretty much laughed at him. In front of everyone. I was there. It's like there is a general agreement that because he is a guy he can't feel threatened.
He has refused Susan's help several times, but sometimes they do have to work together. He (being an introvert) isn't very welcoming or friendly to her or the other ladies. He accepted lunch from her once at the beginning and then never again, but she kept pushing.
I definitely see his point. I can totally see the ladies feeling offended if he reacted more seriously to their behaviour.
Thanks for your replies!
posted by ADent at 5:16 AM on August 29, 2012
For example, his former supervisor (she retired a couple of weeks ago) used to rub her legs against his under the table "as a joke" during staff meetings and he did tell her he was uncomfortable with it, but it did not stop, and she pretty much laughed at him. In front of everyone. I was there. It's like there is a general agreement that because he is a guy he can't feel threatened.
He has refused Susan's help several times, but sometimes they do have to work together. He (being an introvert) isn't very welcoming or friendly to her or the other ladies. He accepted lunch from her once at the beginning and then never again, but she kept pushing.
I definitely see his point. I can totally see the ladies feeling offended if he reacted more seriously to their behaviour.
Thanks for your replies!
posted by ADent at 5:16 AM on August 29, 2012
He needs to be more proactive here. Like, asking her not to call out of office hours. Like, not going for meals with her. Like, saying he prefers to do his travelling around/physical work alone. If she doesn't get the message from that then - if it were me - I'd have a word to say that I'm not comfortable with the non-work-related interaction, especially given that my wife works in the same place. If she still doesn't get it, it's HR time.
posted by Decani at 6:08 AM on August 29, 2012
posted by Decani at 6:08 AM on August 29, 2012
So WHAT if the women are offended?! No, seriously, that is really backwards thinking. He let's them harass him because he wants to be a gentleman? Look, I get this is a tricky situation and office politics suck, but that's not the tack to take here. His personal space is his and his alone -- if the women at this office repeatedly violate it, he needs to a) consider whether staying at the job is worth it, b) make an effort to be vocal about what he is and is not comfortable with, and, though I hate saying it because it sounds lie I'm victim blaming, but considering if he's contributing to the problem by not saying anything assertively to defer their behavior.
Offend these women. They deserve it. They are acting inappropriately and they know it.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:46 AM on August 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
Offend these women. They deserve it. They are acting inappropriately and they know it.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 7:46 AM on August 29, 2012 [4 favorites]
I'd have him start logging all of the times she calls/texts for assistance outside of work hours. Then he can present his boss/HR department for all of the hours to be reimbursed in the form of overtime or comp time. HR will have a talk with her, and she will likely be completely offended and knock it the hell off.
posted by 8dot3 at 7:55 AM on August 29, 2012
posted by 8dot3 at 7:55 AM on August 29, 2012
It's like there is a general agreement that because he is a guy he can't feel threatened.
This is really not the case. I'm a woman, but I brought up a somewhat borderline harrassment issue to my boss in an environment in which I was basically the only woman. His face got very serious and he said he would deal with it quickly. He did. (No one was fired or anything, it was just knocked the heck off).
It should be the same for any gender combination.
posted by sweetkid at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is really not the case. I'm a woman, but I brought up a somewhat borderline harrassment issue to my boss in an environment in which I was basically the only woman. His face got very serious and he said he would deal with it quickly. He did. (No one was fired or anything, it was just knocked the heck off).
It should be the same for any gender combination.
posted by sweetkid at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's like there is a general agreement that because he is a guy he can't feel threatened.
Thinking of the younger guys I interact with at work (I'm a 42 yo F, working mostly with women my own age)... um, yeah. This is what we think. It is not cool.
Shifting the dynamic is going to involve humanizing him in the eyes of the OTHER women in the office, who can then police Susan a bit. Big ol' picture of his wife on his desk, talk about your honeymoon, get the word out that he's kind of an introvert but he can get embarrassed. He could make a mild comment along the lines of "Ugh, this reminds me of getting hassled in middle school." Could you say something low-key to one of the other women, like "Is it me or did Susan kind of blow me off there?"
Let one or two of the other women figure it out, then you guys will have some allies.
Right now they probably just see him as Mr. Tall Cute Youngster, and hassling him seems as natural as putting sunglasses on a dog and posting the video to youtube.
posted by selfmedicating at 8:51 AM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
Thinking of the younger guys I interact with at work (I'm a 42 yo F, working mostly with women my own age)... um, yeah. This is what we think. It is not cool.
Shifting the dynamic is going to involve humanizing him in the eyes of the OTHER women in the office, who can then police Susan a bit. Big ol' picture of his wife on his desk, talk about your honeymoon, get the word out that he's kind of an introvert but he can get embarrassed. He could make a mild comment along the lines of "Ugh, this reminds me of getting hassled in middle school." Could you say something low-key to one of the other women, like "Is it me or did Susan kind of blow me off there?"
Let one or two of the other women figure it out, then you guys will have some allies.
Right now they probably just see him as Mr. Tall Cute Youngster, and hassling him seems as natural as putting sunglasses on a dog and posting the video to youtube.
posted by selfmedicating at 8:51 AM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'd have him go to HR and ask them for a strategy for dealing with this:
"These particular ladies are making me very uncomfortable with their comments, my former manager even used to rub my legs in staff meetings. I didn't want to rock the boat early on, but things are getting out of control. I'm feeling harrassed and I also think that if I say something now that the people in question will feel offended, or that I'm blowing it out of proportion or something like that. What do you recommend to get them to stop without making them feel weird about it?"
Now HR is on notice that there's a problem, your husband may get some valuable information from HR (probably not, but there's always hope).
I would do some roleplaying with your husband, so he can get some practice saying what is necessary to shut this shit down.
"I realize you think you're giving me a compliment, but you're making me feel uncomfortable."
"Susan, please stop that, it makes me uncomfortable."
When the ladies talk to you about it say something, "I know you think it's cute to tease Fred like that, but he hates it and it makes him really uncomfortable. Can you pass the word around so that everyone stops? Seriously, it's becoming a real problem."
Let them call you a bitch with no sense of humor, who cares?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:52 AM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
"These particular ladies are making me very uncomfortable with their comments, my former manager even used to rub my legs in staff meetings. I didn't want to rock the boat early on, but things are getting out of control. I'm feeling harrassed and I also think that if I say something now that the people in question will feel offended, or that I'm blowing it out of proportion or something like that. What do you recommend to get them to stop without making them feel weird about it?"
Now HR is on notice that there's a problem, your husband may get some valuable information from HR (probably not, but there's always hope).
I would do some roleplaying with your husband, so he can get some practice saying what is necessary to shut this shit down.
"I realize you think you're giving me a compliment, but you're making me feel uncomfortable."
"Susan, please stop that, it makes me uncomfortable."
When the ladies talk to you about it say something, "I know you think it's cute to tease Fred like that, but he hates it and it makes him really uncomfortable. Can you pass the word around so that everyone stops? Seriously, it's becoming a real problem."
Let them call you a bitch with no sense of humor, who cares?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:52 AM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would go to HR, as pre-emptive strike and all that. But I would not argue with these people. It likely will make things worse, not better. The thing they are looking for is an emotional pay off. Deny them that. Giving them shit won't make them happy but it does give them something emotionally. Sick shits like this will eat that up. It will egg them on.
I had a couple of incidents at work involving overly gushy younger men. I remained polite but not warm. One eventually got the message. The other upped the ante and therafter got reported to HR (by my boss, nit me). He himself was an extremely good looking young man in a pink collar ghetto. Quite a few women were emotionally feeling him up inappropriately on a stomach churning daily basis. After he got hauled in to HR, I went to great lengths to be very respectful of him, and remained polite but formal. He eventually got over it and then somewhere along the way learned from me how to set more appropriate boundaries. Not letting him talk to me like a piece of ass taught him to not let women talk to him like a piece of ass. It took time. It was not a quick thing. I feel I did him a service.
I think Fred needs to be professional and formal, polite but not warm and friendly. He needs to remove the emotional pay off. No more "Why thank you very much for the compliment!" No blushing. No cursing/otherwise being actively hostile and rejecting. Suck all the oxygen out of their search for an emotional buzz. If they up the ante, maybe Fred will finally feel okay about going to HR. If not, they might get a clue that, no, this isn't "funny" or something and change their behavior without a big confrontation.
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
posted by Michele in California at 1:06 PM on August 29, 2012
I had a couple of incidents at work involving overly gushy younger men. I remained polite but not warm. One eventually got the message. The other upped the ante and therafter got reported to HR (by my boss, nit me). He himself was an extremely good looking young man in a pink collar ghetto. Quite a few women were emotionally feeling him up inappropriately on a stomach churning daily basis. After he got hauled in to HR, I went to great lengths to be very respectful of him, and remained polite but formal. He eventually got over it and then somewhere along the way learned from me how to set more appropriate boundaries. Not letting him talk to me like a piece of ass taught him to not let women talk to him like a piece of ass. It took time. It was not a quick thing. I feel I did him a service.
I think Fred needs to be professional and formal, polite but not warm and friendly. He needs to remove the emotional pay off. No more "Why thank you very much for the compliment!" No blushing. No cursing/otherwise being actively hostile and rejecting. Suck all the oxygen out of their search for an emotional buzz. If they up the ante, maybe Fred will finally feel okay about going to HR. If not, they might get a clue that, no, this isn't "funny" or something and change their behavior without a big confrontation.
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
posted by Michele in California at 1:06 PM on August 29, 2012
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Once he's done that, if there isn't some type of intervention, he should probably seek the advice of a good employment issues attorney.
If I were Fred I would also seek the impartial advice of a good counselor to determine if there is anything he might be doing that could change and, as a result, decrease the behavior (like, not take calls in the evening or on the weekend?).
posted by HuronBob at 6:22 PM on August 28, 2012 [5 favorites]