A meddler with a heart of gold
June 4, 2012 11:09 AM Subscribe
About four months ago my best friend and my husbands best friend hooked up and started a relationship. She has a kid and everything seemed fine until the weekend when we saw them all together. Questionable actions on the new boyfriends part.
One of my best friends, Bee, has been a single mom for awhile. After a string of loser boyfriends she started dating the best friend of my husband, Lee. I wasn't too keen on the match up for no important reasons (they didn't seem like they would get along, I hate when friends date other friends, etc.), but they seemed happy. Actually, it seemed perfect. All her emails went on about what an amazing guy he was, how great he was with her daughter and knowing Lee personally, I thought it was a good thing afterall.
This weekend was the first time we saw all three together as a family unit. Bee and Lee couldn't keep their hands off each other and Lee seemed to handle the daughter great -- but at one time during the afternoon I walked in on Lee with the daughter. She was sitting in his way and he had asked her, in a strange tone, to get out of the way. When he spotted me, he played it off lighting "...oh, you silly". But there was something almost malicious in his tone. It left me uneasy.
We continued our night and they left. As we were cleaning up, my husband turned to me and said - "You know, Lee is my best friend, but he said something to [the daughter] which wouldn't fly if anyone spoke to our daughter like that", essentially, he would knock that guys teeth out.
I don't think Lee would ever hurt the daughter at all, but I know I should say something. Whenever I lightly ask how Lee and the daughter get along, it's always great and wonderful - but I don't know if Bee sees this quick to anger side.
The question isn't so much whether I should bring it up, because I really do think I should (and not because I'm meddler, but because of the feeling it left me. I felt like it was wrong), but how should I bring it up. Clearly it's not an easy topic.
One of my best friends, Bee, has been a single mom for awhile. After a string of loser boyfriends she started dating the best friend of my husband, Lee. I wasn't too keen on the match up for no important reasons (they didn't seem like they would get along, I hate when friends date other friends, etc.), but they seemed happy. Actually, it seemed perfect. All her emails went on about what an amazing guy he was, how great he was with her daughter and knowing Lee personally, I thought it was a good thing afterall.
This weekend was the first time we saw all three together as a family unit. Bee and Lee couldn't keep their hands off each other and Lee seemed to handle the daughter great -- but at one time during the afternoon I walked in on Lee with the daughter. She was sitting in his way and he had asked her, in a strange tone, to get out of the way. When he spotted me, he played it off lighting "...oh, you silly". But there was something almost malicious in his tone. It left me uneasy.
We continued our night and they left. As we were cleaning up, my husband turned to me and said - "You know, Lee is my best friend, but he said something to [the daughter] which wouldn't fly if anyone spoke to our daughter like that", essentially, he would knock that guys teeth out.
I don't think Lee would ever hurt the daughter at all, but I know I should say something. Whenever I lightly ask how Lee and the daughter get along, it's always great and wonderful - but I don't know if Bee sees this quick to anger side.
The question isn't so much whether I should bring it up, because I really do think I should (and not because I'm meddler, but because of the feeling it left me. I felt like it was wrong), but how should I bring it up. Clearly it's not an easy topic.
What did your husband hear Lee say to Bee's daughter? Perhaps you could have a mod add this piece of information. Other than that, this is a pretty vague account of Lee's "questionable actions." However, your instincts are obviously telling you something and your husband noticed it too.
I'm not a parent, just an auntie. If I heard someone say something to my nephew that made me uncomfortable, I would probably call them out on it then and there. Lee is your husband's best friend - might it help for them to have a chat? Maybe Lee is just not used to being around kids and doesn't know how to talk to them or maybe there's something more sinister at play. Do not discount those gut feelings. Listen to them always.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:20 AM on June 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'm not a parent, just an auntie. If I heard someone say something to my nephew that made me uncomfortable, I would probably call them out on it then and there. Lee is your husband's best friend - might it help for them to have a chat? Maybe Lee is just not used to being around kids and doesn't know how to talk to them or maybe there's something more sinister at play. Do not discount those gut feelings. Listen to them always.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:20 AM on June 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
So you saw something that looked kind of weird one time? A better thing to do is to invite everyone over for a movie night and watch how things go, and look for a pattern.
If you think this is too long to wait, remember that Bee is looking out for the best interests of her child. Lee is also your friend, which means that you've trusted him for a while now about taking part in your life. You can also bring up the matter with him.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:21 AM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you think this is too long to wait, remember that Bee is looking out for the best interests of her child. Lee is also your friend, which means that you've trusted him for a while now about taking part in your life. You can also bring up the matter with him.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:21 AM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I wish someone had seen through my Evil Stepdad's sweet-in-public demeanour before things went as horribly awry as they did. It started out pretty simply and maybe just some poking from other responsible adults would have helped...?
But, maybe not, and that's what I want to warn you about: you friend might be so in love/protective of this relationship that it wouldn't matter even if you both saw something more sinister in play. Be aware of that possibility and don't be personally hurt by it. If you're able to make a plan that allows someone to check in on/with the kid, that would be ideal regardless of her reaction.
Explaining it to her as non-judgmentally as possible is likely key. Making sure you note that there were 2 separate incidents, which made it seem like something she'd definitely want to know about sooner rather than later. Some people do better when it seems like they are being presented with someone else's confusion, but others use that to minimise potential red flags. Others prefer direct, simple explanation, and some find that challenging and offensive. You know your friend best, so consider approach as well as content.
Would it be possible for your husband to make in-roads with his buddy to find out if there's tension there?
posted by batmonkey at 11:24 AM on June 4, 2012 [9 favorites]
But, maybe not, and that's what I want to warn you about: you friend might be so in love/protective of this relationship that it wouldn't matter even if you both saw something more sinister in play. Be aware of that possibility and don't be personally hurt by it. If you're able to make a plan that allows someone to check in on/with the kid, that would be ideal regardless of her reaction.
Explaining it to her as non-judgmentally as possible is likely key. Making sure you note that there were 2 separate incidents, which made it seem like something she'd definitely want to know about sooner rather than later. Some people do better when it seems like they are being presented with someone else's confusion, but others use that to minimise potential red flags. Others prefer direct, simple explanation, and some find that challenging and offensive. You know your friend best, so consider approach as well as content.
Would it be possible for your husband to make in-roads with his buddy to find out if there's tension there?
posted by batmonkey at 11:24 AM on June 4, 2012 [9 favorites]
So both of you independently witnessed this dynamic between Lee and Daughter on two separate occasions on the same day? If that reading is correct, then yes, by all means say something.
It's really unclear from your phrasing whether you are relating something your husband saw and told you about, something you and your husband both saw at the same time (so, one incident), or two independent situations witnessed by both you and you husband.
I feel like if I were your friend, I would be tempted to see your getting involved as being because you already don't approve of the relationship for your own reasons. Being able to say, "Husband and I each saw this happen, in two separate situations," might be a little stronger.
I like Eicats' phrasing for if you do decide to say something.
posted by Sara C. at 11:24 AM on June 4, 2012
It's really unclear from your phrasing whether you are relating something your husband saw and told you about, something you and your husband both saw at the same time (so, one incident), or two independent situations witnessed by both you and you husband.
I feel like if I were your friend, I would be tempted to see your getting involved as being because you already don't approve of the relationship for your own reasons. Being able to say, "Husband and I each saw this happen, in two separate situations," might be a little stronger.
I like Eicats' phrasing for if you do decide to say something.
posted by Sara C. at 11:24 AM on June 4, 2012
Seems strange. If Lee doesn't see the child as someone deserving respect or basic human attention than it won't be a very good thing for the kid. I know a co-worker who dated single moms and basically kind of ignored the fact that they had kids, and what that meant, for as long as possible.
posted by Napierzaza at 11:29 AM on June 4, 2012
posted by Napierzaza at 11:29 AM on June 4, 2012
I can't get a good read on if Lee's actions are questionable from the post, but if you think there is a question, at all, please say something. Don't even worry too much about treading lightly, as if you two are best friends, she'll know you're just concerned for Daughter.
My best friend has tested the waters with a few guys after her son was born, and each time she understood my "are you sure they're good with Kidling" as genuine concern for Kidling's well being.
Better for her to find out there's an issue now before Daughter gets too attached to Lee, or Lee does something he really shouldn't.
posted by skittlekicks at 11:32 AM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
My best friend has tested the waters with a few guys after her son was born, and each time she understood my "are you sure they're good with Kidling" as genuine concern for Kidling's well being.
Better for her to find out there's an issue now before Daughter gets too attached to Lee, or Lee does something he really shouldn't.
posted by skittlekicks at 11:32 AM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
It does sound like a bit of an awkward/unpleasant exchange, but I agree with futureisunwritten that a single incident like this sounds a bit vague. Is Lee particularly used to being with kids? "Hey get out of my way" is probably the kind of thing I would stupidly say (and then regret and apologize for) to a kid sitting in my path because I don't spend a lot of time with children.
You don't have to ignore your instincts (and your husband having the same thought does validate them), but a single awkward moment isn't much indication of anything.
posted by zachlipton at 11:37 AM on June 4, 2012
You don't have to ignore your instincts (and your husband having the same thought does validate them), but a single awkward moment isn't much indication of anything.
posted by zachlipton at 11:37 AM on June 4, 2012
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
Both incidents were seperate - the other not knowing about each incident until speaking after Bee and Lee left.posted by cortex (staff) at 11:40 AM on June 4, 2012
My husband was in the same room as Lee where Lee yelled at the daughter to get off him and push her away with his foot.
We both agreed that parents (and adults in general) do get frustrated, but the tone of his voice seemed to be what left us uneasy.
I hope that helps.
This weekend was the first time we saw all three together as a family unit. Bee and Lee couldn't keep their hands off each other and Lee seemed to handle the daughter great -- but at one time during the afternoon I walked in on Lee with the daughter.
I'm assuming from the way you put this that "couldn't keep their hands off each other" does not refer to embarrassing groping but still I think this guy has an awfully entrenched status with Bee for four months of dating. I'd be very concerned about two separate instances of him being sharp with the daughter anyway, but more so with this.
posted by BibiRose at 11:47 AM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
I'm assuming from the way you put this that "couldn't keep their hands off each other" does not refer to embarrassing groping but still I think this guy has an awfully entrenched status with Bee for four months of dating. I'd be very concerned about two separate instances of him being sharp with the daughter anyway, but more so with this.
posted by BibiRose at 11:47 AM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
Then, yes, say something for sure!
I think it's probably innocent, or at least probably just that he doesn't have experience with kids, grew up in a home where people talked to children that way, etc. Which obviously isn't good, but isn't clearcut villainous abuse. It's definitely the kind of situation where saying something now might lead to better outcomes for everyone rather than finger pointing and ruined friendships.
posted by Sara C. at 11:51 AM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think it's probably innocent, or at least probably just that he doesn't have experience with kids, grew up in a home where people talked to children that way, etc. Which obviously isn't good, but isn't clearcut villainous abuse. It's definitely the kind of situation where saying something now might lead to better outcomes for everyone rather than finger pointing and ruined friendships.
posted by Sara C. at 11:51 AM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
There's no question here. You're looking for confirmation of a judgement you won't tell us the details of. So all that's here is, "Should I talk to my friend about this vague thing that I think I should talk to her about?" Obviously, yes.
posted by cmoj at 11:55 AM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by cmoj at 11:55 AM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
Lee yelled at the daughter to get off him and push her away with his foot.
Yuk.
I would spell out what had been observed to Bee, and end the friendship if the relationship with Lee continued. Lee would no longer be welcome in my home. I think people who treat children with disrespect are beneath contempt, and I certainly wouldn't have them in my life. I think mothers who expose their children to that sort of treatment are also beneath contempt. Moreso given the rates of partner/stepfather abuse. How to bring it up doesn't need to be fancier than "We noticed Lee treats Childname terribly."
He sounds like a total dirtball and he's either a very good actor when Bee is around, or Bee is a screw-up. Sorry. Should've called him on it at the time; would you let an adult yell at another adult in your house without intervening? I am amazed at the excuses people will make for ill-treatment of children. Maybe he doesn't have experience with kids? Come on, he's a nasty piece of work. I don't have much experience with dogs and am not fond of some dogs, but that doesn't mean I yell at and shove dogs. He's not a parent; it's not like the kid had been keeping him up all night and had been difficult to parent all week etc -- there's no 'sometimes parents get frustrated' free pass to be granted here.
posted by kmennie at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
Yuk.
I would spell out what had been observed to Bee, and end the friendship if the relationship with Lee continued. Lee would no longer be welcome in my home. I think people who treat children with disrespect are beneath contempt, and I certainly wouldn't have them in my life. I think mothers who expose their children to that sort of treatment are also beneath contempt. Moreso given the rates of partner/stepfather abuse. How to bring it up doesn't need to be fancier than "We noticed Lee treats Childname terribly."
He sounds like a total dirtball and he's either a very good actor when Bee is around, or Bee is a screw-up. Sorry. Should've called him on it at the time; would you let an adult yell at another adult in your house without intervening? I am amazed at the excuses people will make for ill-treatment of children. Maybe he doesn't have experience with kids? Come on, he's a nasty piece of work. I don't have much experience with dogs and am not fond of some dogs, but that doesn't mean I yell at and shove dogs. He's not a parent; it's not like the kid had been keeping him up all night and had been difficult to parent all week etc -- there's no 'sometimes parents get frustrated' free pass to be granted here.
posted by kmennie at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
Yes, of course you should. With that out of the way...
To the "How to bring it up" - could you involve your husband at all? I think it will say volumes for him to bring this message to her as well, since she would expect him to be closer to Lee and take his side in any kind of a misunderstanding. His phrasing (at least the way you report it) was much stronger as well.
posted by true at 12:05 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
To the "How to bring it up" - could you involve your husband at all? I think it will say volumes for him to bring this message to her as well, since she would expect him to be closer to Lee and take his side in any kind of a misunderstanding. His phrasing (at least the way you report it) was much stronger as well.
posted by true at 12:05 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
if there were two separate incidents, you should clearly relate to her what you and her husband saw. tread carefully tho; it might all be for naught. bee sounds like she's head over heels for this guy and we all know that that state makes a lot of ppl ignore what would otherwise be red flags and protect the relationship. especially since it's only 4 months into the relationship and she has already involved her child.
posted by violetk at 12:09 PM on June 4, 2012
posted by violetk at 12:09 PM on June 4, 2012
The question is, if it were your daughter and your short-time-boyfriend-and-possible-latest-in-a-string-of-losers, would you want your friends to mention it to you?
Spoiler: the answer is an emphatic 'yes'. I would find the fact that you and your husband noticed two incidents independently over a short time to be pretty disturbing if it were my kid.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:14 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Spoiler: the answer is an emphatic 'yes'. I would find the fact that you and your husband noticed two incidents independently over a short time to be pretty disturbing if it were my kid.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 12:14 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I would have a brief private chat with the daughter personally. This is a child you've known since birth and who presumably sees you as not quite family, but a caring and trustworthy adult. Just a quick question like "does lee yell at you a lot?" or "has lee ever kicked you before?" Something she can answer by simply nodding or shaking her head if needs be.
I'd certainly talk to Bee as well but I'd ask the child directly since Bee may not know what going on. Not a forced confrontation or anything, just a quick question or two.
posted by fshgrl at 12:18 PM on June 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
I'd certainly talk to Bee as well but I'd ask the child directly since Bee may not know what going on. Not a forced confrontation or anything, just a quick question or two.
posted by fshgrl at 12:18 PM on June 4, 2012 [7 favorites]
I would spell out what had been observed to Bee, and end the friendship if the relationship with Lee continued.
Yikes, no. For the sake of the child (and to some extent of Bee) I would want to stay involved, even if it meant having Lee there. Mentioning it to Bee might be a good idea, although the result might be that Lee just ends up strongly discouraging her from staying in contact with you (another potential red flag). If something truly is going wrong, you need to be able to keep an eye on them and intervene if you can.
I'm not trying to make excuses for someone who could very well potentially be abusive, but it's possible that Lee, not having children of his own, doesn't realize the effect that his reactions might have on Bee's daughter. (His reaction as described above doesn't seem abusive so much as annoyed, like that of an older sibling rather than a stepparent). Maybe he even caught himself when he saw that you were observing him, realized how he sounded, and resolved never to do that again, and his reaction wasn't for your benefit so much as it was for Bee's daughter's. Something I'm becoming acutely aware of, as an aunt, is that adults--whether or not they are parents--often don't realize the impact that even their casual interactions with children can have on impressionable young minds.
And not to second-guess you, but it is possible that what you saw as negative was in fact a perfectly normal, neutral interaction between them. Maybe she annoys him on purpose, just to get his goat. I say this because a casual acquaintance who was training as a domestic abuse counselor once observed my husband speak "sharply" to me and thought I was behaving as though I were intimidated, and that "offended" her. I didn't even remember exactly what happened and certainly didn't feel intimidated--I think Dr. TM had a headache at the time and was just a bit cranky--but I do remember feeling infuriated because she couldn't possibly know anything about us or our typical interactions and was jumping to conclusions based on one brief, aberrant glimpse of our relationship when my husband was out of sorts. (Then again, she was also annoyingly self-righteous and distrustful of men in general, which I'm sure you're not.)
But do keep an eye on things. If he's actually some kind of Daddy Dearest faking being a good parent for the benefit of friends and acquaintances, you'll be able to tell, especially by the way his stepdaughter responds to him.
posted by tully_monster at 1:15 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yikes, no. For the sake of the child (and to some extent of Bee) I would want to stay involved, even if it meant having Lee there. Mentioning it to Bee might be a good idea, although the result might be that Lee just ends up strongly discouraging her from staying in contact with you (another potential red flag). If something truly is going wrong, you need to be able to keep an eye on them and intervene if you can.
I'm not trying to make excuses for someone who could very well potentially be abusive, but it's possible that Lee, not having children of his own, doesn't realize the effect that his reactions might have on Bee's daughter. (His reaction as described above doesn't seem abusive so much as annoyed, like that of an older sibling rather than a stepparent). Maybe he even caught himself when he saw that you were observing him, realized how he sounded, and resolved never to do that again, and his reaction wasn't for your benefit so much as it was for Bee's daughter's. Something I'm becoming acutely aware of, as an aunt, is that adults--whether or not they are parents--often don't realize the impact that even their casual interactions with children can have on impressionable young minds.
And not to second-guess you, but it is possible that what you saw as negative was in fact a perfectly normal, neutral interaction between them. Maybe she annoys him on purpose, just to get his goat. I say this because a casual acquaintance who was training as a domestic abuse counselor once observed my husband speak "sharply" to me and thought I was behaving as though I were intimidated, and that "offended" her. I didn't even remember exactly what happened and certainly didn't feel intimidated--I think Dr. TM had a headache at the time and was just a bit cranky--but I do remember feeling infuriated because she couldn't possibly know anything about us or our typical interactions and was jumping to conclusions based on one brief, aberrant glimpse of our relationship when my husband was out of sorts. (Then again, she was also annoyingly self-righteous and distrustful of men in general, which I'm sure you're not.)
But do keep an eye on things. If he's actually some kind of Daddy Dearest faking being a good parent for the benefit of friends and acquaintances, you'll be able to tell, especially by the way his stepdaughter responds to him.
posted by tully_monster at 1:15 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think it is telling that Lee "covered up" his actions in front of you, but had no problem shoving the daughter with his foot in front of your husband.
Honestly?
I think you should consult a professional about this situation and get their advice. It sounds like Lee has an abusive side to him and that he's been great at hiding thus far, and only in certain circumstances.
This is more than you, your husband, or internet strangers can handle. Seek professional insight.
(I know that sounds overly dramatic. It's not. I grew up in an abusive household and there are countless red flags all over your question. I think you are in over your head and you need precise and professional advice. Good luck.)
posted by jbenben at 1:26 PM on June 4, 2012 [8 favorites]
Honestly?
I think you should consult a professional about this situation and get their advice. It sounds like Lee has an abusive side to him and that he's been great at hiding thus far, and only in certain circumstances.
This is more than you, your husband, or internet strangers can handle. Seek professional insight.
(I know that sounds overly dramatic. It's not. I grew up in an abusive household and there are countless red flags all over your question. I think you are in over your head and you need precise and professional advice. Good luck.)
posted by jbenben at 1:26 PM on June 4, 2012 [8 favorites]
Gosh, is no one suggesting that Husband talk with his best friend Lee?
Sure, the OP can mention it to Bee, and she probably should, but Husband has standing with his buddy and I'm sure that a quick discussion will put Lee on notice that two people have noticed that he's not stellar step-dad material.
Perhaps Husband can volunteer to help Lee understand how to deal with kids.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:38 PM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
Sure, the OP can mention it to Bee, and she probably should, but Husband has standing with his buddy and I'm sure that a quick discussion will put Lee on notice that two people have noticed that he's not stellar step-dad material.
Perhaps Husband can volunteer to help Lee understand how to deal with kids.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:38 PM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
Given that it's a group dynamic, of your friend plus your husband's friend, when you say something negative to your friend about the guy there's definitely a bit of "us" and "them". I could see her taking it as a more serious warning if it were your husband mentioning it to her. Or maybe taking it to Lee - instead of "warning her about him", warning him about himself.
Personally, (caveats: I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a mom. I was never abused.) I would just note this down as a piece of information, and invite them to do something again soon, to "collect more data" on the situation. He may not be adjusted to being around a kid. He might have anticipated weird dynamics spending the day with you two and been stressed and responding weirdly. I'm not justifying his actions, but saying that it's not consistent behavior yet. Also, if she's all full of new-boyfriend brain chemicals, she's not in a good place to listen to what you have to say. Invite them to get together again, and if you and your husband both go in looking for clues, maybe you'll know for sure how you want to handle it. If there are other mutual friends who you'd trust to help, invite them all over for a barbeque or whatever.
In the meantime, don't bring it up, and don't call him out - but if she asks "what did you think? Aren't Lee and LittleBee just the sweetest???" I'd respond cautiously "Lee's such a guy's guy, he's totally got some adjusting to do before he'll be really used to living with a kid." (what?) "Oh, haven't you ever noticed how a teenager or a babysitter can be all high energy paying attention gung-ho funtime for a while and then just crash out and be tired and irritated with the kid, but parents settle down and are a lot more patient?" Basically, point it out as a personality quirk and an area for improvement, but not in an attacking way.
posted by aimedwander at 1:46 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Personally, (caveats: I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a mom. I was never abused.) I would just note this down as a piece of information, and invite them to do something again soon, to "collect more data" on the situation. He may not be adjusted to being around a kid. He might have anticipated weird dynamics spending the day with you two and been stressed and responding weirdly. I'm not justifying his actions, but saying that it's not consistent behavior yet. Also, if she's all full of new-boyfriend brain chemicals, she's not in a good place to listen to what you have to say. Invite them to get together again, and if you and your husband both go in looking for clues, maybe you'll know for sure how you want to handle it. If there are other mutual friends who you'd trust to help, invite them all over for a barbeque or whatever.
In the meantime, don't bring it up, and don't call him out - but if she asks "what did you think? Aren't Lee and LittleBee just the sweetest???" I'd respond cautiously "Lee's such a guy's guy, he's totally got some adjusting to do before he'll be really used to living with a kid." (what?) "Oh, haven't you ever noticed how a teenager or a babysitter can be all high energy paying attention gung-ho funtime for a while and then just crash out and be tired and irritated with the kid, but parents settle down and are a lot more patient?" Basically, point it out as a personality quirk and an area for improvement, but not in an attacking way.
posted by aimedwander at 1:46 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Ruthless Bunny asked:
"Gosh, is no one suggesting that Husband talk with his best friend Lee?"
At least 2 other people mentioned that.
fshgrl proposed:
"I would have a brief private chat with the daughter personally."
This should very much depend on the age of the child. Even 6yr olds can give really weird answers to seemingly straightforward questions, and pre-loading their reasoning centers with potentials that don't exist can create chaos in a situation where only more clarity is advised. In other words: you could muddy the waters with this approach, even though you are trying to do the right thing.
kmennie said:
"I would spell out what had been observed to Bee, and end the friendship if the relationship with Lee continued."
This is the one piece of this advice I wouldn't go with. If Lee is abusive, you wouldn't want to remove yourself as a safe haven, and forcing a polarising choice or outright banning him could make that more of a likelihood. If Bee has been in crap relationships before and feels this one is very strong, she might feel even more shame if it turns out Lee isn't the ace guy she so wants him to be, and creating a divide she has to cross to make the better decision for herself and/or her child wouldn't be productive.
I'm kind of hoping there are therapeutic caregivers reading this Ask who can give more clarity for proven approaches and postures at this point, as you're getting a lot of conflicting (and emotionally charged) advice.
posted by batmonkey at 1:56 PM on June 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
"Gosh, is no one suggesting that Husband talk with his best friend Lee?"
At least 2 other people mentioned that.
fshgrl proposed:
"I would have a brief private chat with the daughter personally."
This should very much depend on the age of the child. Even 6yr olds can give really weird answers to seemingly straightforward questions, and pre-loading their reasoning centers with potentials that don't exist can create chaos in a situation where only more clarity is advised. In other words: you could muddy the waters with this approach, even though you are trying to do the right thing.
kmennie said:
"I would spell out what had been observed to Bee, and end the friendship if the relationship with Lee continued."
This is the one piece of this advice I wouldn't go with. If Lee is abusive, you wouldn't want to remove yourself as a safe haven, and forcing a polarising choice or outright banning him could make that more of a likelihood. If Bee has been in crap relationships before and feels this one is very strong, she might feel even more shame if it turns out Lee isn't the ace guy she so wants him to be, and creating a divide she has to cross to make the better decision for herself and/or her child wouldn't be productive.
I'm kind of hoping there are therapeutic caregivers reading this Ask who can give more clarity for proven approaches and postures at this point, as you're getting a lot of conflicting (and emotionally charged) advice.
posted by batmonkey at 1:56 PM on June 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
but at one time during the afternoon I walked in on Lee with the daughter. She was sitting in his way and he had asked her, in a strange tone, to get out of the way. When he spotted me, he played it off lighting "...oh, you silly". But there was something almost malicious in his tone. It left me uneasy.
This is horrifying.
There is nothing that this kind of rage and hidden malice is incapable of.
Lee has already embarked upon a campaign of intimidating and terrorizing this little girl when he thinks no one else is around. How far he will go, I don't think even he would be able to say, but the mere continuation of what he is doing now with no escalation will mean a life of misery and fear for her as long as he is around.
I admire you and your husband for having the guts it takes to notice something like this and recognize it for what it is. I don't think most people do.
I think you should try to break Lee and Bee up by any means necessary.
Lee will despise you, Bee may hate you, and the child won't ever remember what you did, but if you succeed, you will have done each of them one of the greatest favors anyone is likely to do for them in their lives.
posted by jamjam at 2:19 PM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
This is horrifying.
There is nothing that this kind of rage and hidden malice is incapable of.
Lee has already embarked upon a campaign of intimidating and terrorizing this little girl when he thinks no one else is around. How far he will go, I don't think even he would be able to say, but the mere continuation of what he is doing now with no escalation will mean a life of misery and fear for her as long as he is around.
I admire you and your husband for having the guts it takes to notice something like this and recognize it for what it is. I don't think most people do.
I think you should try to break Lee and Bee up by any means necessary.
Lee will despise you, Bee may hate you, and the child won't ever remember what you did, but if you succeed, you will have done each of them one of the greatest favors anyone is likely to do for them in their lives.
posted by jamjam at 2:19 PM on June 4, 2012 [6 favorites]
I would start asking your friend questions in a general, feeling out the situation. How is Lee with the daughter? Do they get along? What do they do together? How much time do they spend together? Do this over a long period of time.
What your aiming for is your friend to start thinking about Lee's behavior - whatever it actually may be - and she needs to be the one to decide to do something about it with you their as her friend to support her. You don't know if it's sinister or if he's a jerk, but in either situation, your friend needs to be very aware of his behavior towards her daughter.
You can also ask Lee about the daughter in front of a group of people - see how he responds - make it very innocuous, but something about whether they spend much time together/whether he takes her to the park/movies/whatever. Doing it in front of a few people gives an audience to whatever reaction Lee has. If there's any resentment there towards the daughter it might be easy to hide the first few times, but eventually the mask slips. Doing it in front of other people is very important.
posted by mleigh at 2:27 PM on June 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
What your aiming for is your friend to start thinking about Lee's behavior - whatever it actually may be - and she needs to be the one to decide to do something about it with you their as her friend to support her. You don't know if it's sinister or if he's a jerk, but in either situation, your friend needs to be very aware of his behavior towards her daughter.
You can also ask Lee about the daughter in front of a group of people - see how he responds - make it very innocuous, but something about whether they spend much time together/whether he takes her to the park/movies/whatever. Doing it in front of a few people gives an audience to whatever reaction Lee has. If there's any resentment there towards the daughter it might be easy to hide the first few times, but eventually the mask slips. Doing it in front of other people is very important.
posted by mleigh at 2:27 PM on June 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
The fact that she's had a series of loser boyfriends is going to make it potentially harder to get through to her about this, especially if Lee is acting one way around Bee and another around her daughter. She may not have the self-confidence to extract herself out of this seemingly great relationship. I like the idea of you and your husband approaching her and both of you sharing what you saw, and I would suggest that your husband state that if he thought Lee was like this, he never would have supported this relationship and that after observing the interaction with her daughter, cannot "vouch" for Lee as someone of good character and his friendship with Lee is being reconsidered.
Based on your husband's reaction to what he saw, it's unlikely Lee would have been able to be his best friend if he wasn't doing an excellent job hiding this part of his character.
Talk to Bee first, but then your husband should talk to Lee about what he saw, that this is unacceptable, that he's being put on notice, that he's going to be watched from now on for this kind of shenanigans and that this won't stand with him.
posted by vivzan at 2:44 PM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Based on your husband's reaction to what he saw, it's unlikely Lee would have been able to be his best friend if he wasn't doing an excellent job hiding this part of his character.
Talk to Bee first, but then your husband should talk to Lee about what he saw, that this is unacceptable, that he's being put on notice, that he's going to be watched from now on for this kind of shenanigans and that this won't stand with him.
posted by vivzan at 2:44 PM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
You know, Lee is my best friend, but he said something to [the daughter] which wouldn't fly if anyone spoke to our daughter like that"
If someone says something abusive to your daughter, how is it MUCH different from him saying it to a friend's daughter? So why didn't your husband just knock Lee's teeth out (or at least loosen them) right there? If your husband saw something like that but didn't say anything....gosh, if Lee isn't a dad, he might think it's perfectly acceptable dad behavior. "Yeah, we put on a good show for the wives, but when they're out of the room we can treat the brats like brats, am I right?"
This is definitely something you should bring up with your friend, and it's something your husband should bring up with Lee. Maybe have a chat about how frustrating kids can be, and mothers may seem like they're coddling them, but kids do need to be treated somewhat gently.
He might be an abusive asshole who just naturally has violent tendencies....but it might also be that he just doesn't know how to act like a dad. And four months into a relationship is really soon to ask a guy to learn how to be a perfect dad to a kid.
...I'm basing this on what you've said - that he's just spoken to her sharply and pushed her out of the way with his foot, not actually kicked her or hit her.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 3:15 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
If someone says something abusive to your daughter, how is it MUCH different from him saying it to a friend's daughter? So why didn't your husband just knock Lee's teeth out (or at least loosen them) right there? If your husband saw something like that but didn't say anything....gosh, if Lee isn't a dad, he might think it's perfectly acceptable dad behavior. "Yeah, we put on a good show for the wives, but when they're out of the room we can treat the brats like brats, am I right?"
This is definitely something you should bring up with your friend, and it's something your husband should bring up with Lee. Maybe have a chat about how frustrating kids can be, and mothers may seem like they're coddling them, but kids do need to be treated somewhat gently.
He might be an abusive asshole who just naturally has violent tendencies....but it might also be that he just doesn't know how to act like a dad. And four months into a relationship is really soon to ask a guy to learn how to be a perfect dad to a kid.
...I'm basing this on what you've said - that he's just spoken to her sharply and pushed her out of the way with his foot, not actually kicked her or hit her.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 3:15 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
From what you've said:
a. Bee has a history of dating "losers" Were any of them abusive? Was she abused as a kid or since? If she has, her inability to recognize/get out of an abusive relationship is higher.
b. They've only been dating for four months, the guy is in your home and knows you are friends with his girlfriend, and he can't be nice to a little kid for the length of a party? How must he act when no one's looking? Does he supervise the child alone?
Other questions:
What do you know about Lee? Has he had a history of dating women that seemed scared or that he accused of being "crazy" a lot? Did he ever belittle his dates (including Bee) in front of you (even in a mock way)? Does he ever bully, or do violent things? Fly into rages frequently? Have a substance problem?
None of these mean 100% that he's abusive, but they can all be red flags. A lot of them are not a good sign.
Talk to your husband, have him talk to Lee, talk to Bee. If you fear abuse is taking place, and you don't think Bee will listen, consider calling a family violence hotline and asking about what you can do.
posted by emjaybee at 3:32 PM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
a. Bee has a history of dating "losers" Were any of them abusive? Was she abused as a kid or since? If she has, her inability to recognize/get out of an abusive relationship is higher.
b. They've only been dating for four months, the guy is in your home and knows you are friends with his girlfriend, and he can't be nice to a little kid for the length of a party? How must he act when no one's looking? Does he supervise the child alone?
Other questions:
What do you know about Lee? Has he had a history of dating women that seemed scared or that he accused of being "crazy" a lot? Did he ever belittle his dates (including Bee) in front of you (even in a mock way)? Does he ever bully, or do violent things? Fly into rages frequently? Have a substance problem?
None of these mean 100% that he's abusive, but they can all be red flags. A lot of them are not a good sign.
Talk to your husband, have him talk to Lee, talk to Bee. If you fear abuse is taking place, and you don't think Bee will listen, consider calling a family violence hotline and asking about what you can do.
posted by emjaybee at 3:32 PM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
Ick. I don't know what you should do but I don't think you and your husband should sit on this. That's my gut feeling from what you posted.
posted by amanda at 3:58 PM on June 4, 2012
posted by amanda at 3:58 PM on June 4, 2012
"I would have a brief private chat with the daughter personally."
OMG please do not leap in and begin playing amateur social worker with your friends' kids. While what you witnessed was disconcerting and certainly is cause to look more closely, you saw nothing illegal or explicitly abusive, and it's early enough in the game that all the talking about this needs to be done by the grownups involved.
Some people aren't particularly good with kids and don't really know how to interact with them comfortably. While what you saw might be a sign of deeper problems, it also really might not be -- everyone has off days. Granted, Lee will have to learn if he wants to be in a relationship with someone like your friend.
It's fine to put out feelers and initiate some tasteful conversations about what the situation is really like, but don't leap to any conclusions -- you have no idea how much damage you might cause if you do.
posted by hermitosis at 4:12 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
OMG please do not leap in and begin playing amateur social worker with your friends' kids. While what you witnessed was disconcerting and certainly is cause to look more closely, you saw nothing illegal or explicitly abusive, and it's early enough in the game that all the talking about this needs to be done by the grownups involved.
Some people aren't particularly good with kids and don't really know how to interact with them comfortably. While what you saw might be a sign of deeper problems, it also really might not be -- everyone has off days. Granted, Lee will have to learn if he wants to be in a relationship with someone like your friend.
It's fine to put out feelers and initiate some tasteful conversations about what the situation is really like, but don't leap to any conclusions -- you have no idea how much damage you might cause if you do.
posted by hermitosis at 4:12 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
If your relationship is close and familiar enough, I would talk to the daughter privately too, but with no leading questions and not in a terrifically solemn way. Just "What do you think of -name-?" "What do you like about him?" "What don't you like about him?"
And I would not have Lee talk to his friend about this, at least until talking to the daughter.
posted by caclwmr4 at 4:26 PM on June 4, 2012
And I would not have Lee talk to his friend about this, at least until talking to the daughter.
posted by caclwmr4 at 4:26 PM on June 4, 2012
Nah, speaking as a parent, you want to talk to the girl's mom first before you start having little one-on-ones with her daughter.
posted by KokuRyu at 5:37 PM on June 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 5:37 PM on June 4, 2012 [3 favorites]
Lee has already embarked upon a campaign of intimidating and terrorizing this little girl when he thinks no one else is around. How far he will go, I don't think even he would be able to say, but the mere continuation of what he is doing now with no escalation will mean a life of misery and fear for her as long as he is around.
I don't see how we can possibly know this. Something happened that was definitely off and that's a red flag. Maybe he is an abusive monster as you seem to be convinced. Maybe he and the daughter have a "wicked stepfather" joke going and it really is in good fun for everyone. Maybe he and Bee had been discussing boundaries and behavior with the girl for days and he was frustrated (which doesn't make it ok, but does give some context). Maybe he has no real experience with children and is treating her like an older sibling once treated him. Maybe he was having a really off day. We just don't know, and short of some sort of incredibly dramatic outburst/attack, I don't think we could know based on such limited information.
By all means, try to "break Lee and Bee up by any means necessary" and contact the authorities if there's good reason to believe he's beating Bee or the daughter or locking her in the closet or being significantly emotionally abusive. But right now all you've got is a hunch that something was disconcerting. It's good to follow up on that hunch because there are children involved, but the leap from what the OP has seen to "OMG critical emergency break them up now" just isn't remotely there as far as I can tell.
posted by zachlipton at 5:39 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
I don't see how we can possibly know this. Something happened that was definitely off and that's a red flag. Maybe he is an abusive monster as you seem to be convinced. Maybe he and the daughter have a "wicked stepfather" joke going and it really is in good fun for everyone. Maybe he and Bee had been discussing boundaries and behavior with the girl for days and he was frustrated (which doesn't make it ok, but does give some context). Maybe he has no real experience with children and is treating her like an older sibling once treated him. Maybe he was having a really off day. We just don't know, and short of some sort of incredibly dramatic outburst/attack, I don't think we could know based on such limited information.
By all means, try to "break Lee and Bee up by any means necessary" and contact the authorities if there's good reason to believe he's beating Bee or the daughter or locking her in the closet or being significantly emotionally abusive. But right now all you've got is a hunch that something was disconcerting. It's good to follow up on that hunch because there are children involved, but the leap from what the OP has seen to "OMG critical emergency break them up now" just isn't remotely there as far as I can tell.
posted by zachlipton at 5:39 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
To the daughter: "If anything ever happens with Lee that doesn't seem right, and you can't talk to your mom about it or she does not understand, you can ALWAYS come to me. I will take you seriously and do what I can to help you."
And mean it.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 6:56 PM on June 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
And mean it.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 6:56 PM on June 4, 2012 [5 favorites]
There is nothing that this kind of rage and hidden malice is incapable of.
What rage? The OP has told us nothing; we know she heard a "strange" tone and the her husband saw him push her off of him.
We have nothing to go on here; all of these answers are projecting onto the massive gaps in this question. You're aware of two seemingly odd things that happened. Continue to monitor and see if anything else occurs. Do not spin dark fantasies of "hidden malice" and "rage" from a tone you described as not even angry but merely strange.
posted by spaltavian at 9:22 PM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
What rage? The OP has told us nothing; we know she heard a "strange" tone and the her husband saw him push her off of him.
We have nothing to go on here; all of these answers are projecting onto the massive gaps in this question. You're aware of two seemingly odd things that happened. Continue to monitor and see if anything else occurs. Do not spin dark fantasies of "hidden malice" and "rage" from a tone you described as not even angry but merely strange.
posted by spaltavian at 9:22 PM on June 4, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think it is indicative of a problem with Lee that during a single, social and happy-time visit, BOTH the OP and her spouse witnessed seperate incidents between Lee and the daughter that gave them serious pause and generated this particular AskMe.
Would Lee have shoved the daughter with his foot in front of Bee?
I bet not.
There's something going on here deeper than Internet strangers can diagnose beyond, "Yeah, it sounds like you witnessed something significant and your best bet is to seek expert and professional advice."
I'm not ready to label anybody, but I think the OP can achieve some peace of mind and discern some great strategies for addressing this by consulting a few professional sources. This question is the equivalent of a complicated landlord/tenant AskMe where people simply answer, "Consult a lawyer."
Disagreeing in this thread with our fellow MeFites pales in comparison to the fact that this daughter and mother may be at risk for a damaging life experience that might be effectively avoided if the OP and her husband handle this responsibly.
The safety of this family unit is greater than quibbling. OP, please seek out expert advice, we're not it this time around.
Best.
posted by jbenben at 10:39 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
Would Lee have shoved the daughter with his foot in front of Bee?
I bet not.
There's something going on here deeper than Internet strangers can diagnose beyond, "Yeah, it sounds like you witnessed something significant and your best bet is to seek expert and professional advice."
I'm not ready to label anybody, but I think the OP can achieve some peace of mind and discern some great strategies for addressing this by consulting a few professional sources. This question is the equivalent of a complicated landlord/tenant AskMe where people simply answer, "Consult a lawyer."
Disagreeing in this thread with our fellow MeFites pales in comparison to the fact that this daughter and mother may be at risk for a damaging life experience that might be effectively avoided if the OP and her husband handle this responsibly.
The safety of this family unit is greater than quibbling. OP, please seek out expert advice, we're not it this time around.
Best.
posted by jbenben at 10:39 PM on June 4, 2012 [2 favorites]
What kind of friendship does your husband have with this asshole anyway? Your husband sees his best friend behaving inappropriately towards a child and doesn't say anything to him right then and there? And this is his BEST friend?
In my opinion, your husband's only excuse for not doing something right then and there is that it would upset the kid. He absolutely should have pulled Lee aside and told him that was no way to treat a kid. He needs to call him now, arrange to meet, and talk to Lee, and maybe even end the friendship.
posted by mareli at 6:31 AM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
In my opinion, your husband's only excuse for not doing something right then and there is that it would upset the kid. He absolutely should have pulled Lee aside and told him that was no way to treat a kid. He needs to call him now, arrange to meet, and talk to Lee, and maybe even end the friendship.
posted by mareli at 6:31 AM on June 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
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If I was the friend, I would understand a question like that is coming out of genuine concern and not you being a meddler.
Then, judge her reaction and just keep and eye on it when you see them together.
posted by Eicats at 11:14 AM on June 4, 2012 [8 favorites]